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26 Feb 2006
Indianapolis... You Are There!
The football world converged on Indianapolis for the NFL scouting combine this weekend, and among the gaggle of reporters were both Aaron Schatz and Michael David Smith. Please allow us to empty our little spiral notebooks in true Peter King style. Or, perhaps, Larry King style. ("You won't see a better-conditioned athlete than Missouri State punter Jonathan Scifres ... I know movies, and Ultraviolet is a sure Oscar contender ... Watch out for those Kansas City Royals this year...")
Michael David Smith's notes
-- The fans like to talk about 40 times, but the most important part of the combine is the opportunity to give every prospect a physical exam, and the second most important part is the one-on-one interview. The Houston Texans don’t know exactly how fast Reggie Bush can run 40 yards right now, but they do know if he has any health problems, and they know if he seems like the kind of guy they want to have in their locker room. That alone makes the combine worthwhile.
-- I think the most surprising thing I heard anyone say in Indianapolis took place during a conversation with Peter King about Brett Favre. "I don’t have his number," King said. I knew Favre had become an increasingly private person, but when King (who is perceived as closer to Favre than any other member of the media) can’t get in touch with him, Favre has really withdrawn.
-- Tom Coughlin said running backs are in rapid decline by age 30. When I pointed out that his own Tiki Barber is about to turn 31, Coughlin said, "He doesn’t know that. He thinks he’s 25."
-- Jay Cutler was impressive in dealing with the media, and impressive by doing everything asked of him during the workouts. And his 23 repetitions of 225 pounds on the bench press must have opened some eyes – a quarterback doesn’t have to have the kind of upper-body strength, but it does indicate that he spends a lot of time in the weight room, and coaches will love that.
-- Matt Leinart was adamant that he wouldn’t mind playing in New Orleans. "If I were to go to the Saints it would be an honor," he said.
-- Vince Young, asked what NFL coaches had said to him about his throwing motion, replied, "There’s nothing really wrong with it. It’s the media that’s been talking about it."
-- Nick Saban was obviously annoyed with all the questions about Ricky Williams and his fourth positive drug test. Saban called Williams one of the five best players he has ever coached in terms of his attitude at practice and his work ethic. What I want to know is, if a habitual marijuana smoker can have such a great attitude and work ethic, why does the NFL suspend players who test positive?
-- The Green Bay Packers made it as clear as could be that they’ll take the best player available with the fifth overall pick. Both general manager Ted Thompson and coach Mike McCarthy used the phrase "best player available" multiple times in their press conferences. Even though the team used its first-round pick on quarterback Aaron Rodgers, Thompson and McCarthy said they will consider taking a quarterback. I asked McCarthy why he preferred Alex Smith to Rodgers when he was San Francisco’s offensive coordinator last year and the 49ers took Smith first overall, and he said he thought Rodgers was more polished but Smith had great potential. Neither Thompson nor McCarthy would speculate about whether Favre will retire. Thompson added that the team is negotiating with Ahman Green, but he didn’t sound enthusiastic about it. I think he expects Green to be elsewhere next year.
-- One player who clearly understands what NFL teams want of him: LSU’s Skyler Green. He said he was willing to play running back, third-down back, slot receiver, kickoff returner, punt returner, or whatever it took to make a team.
-- Jeff Fisher said that if Matt Leinart becomes a Tennessee Titan, the offense he’ll run is the same as the one he ran in college under Norm Chow, now the Titans’ offensive coordinator. "We’ve installed coach Chow’s system. That’s our offense," Fisher said.
-- Mike Holmgren has long been an influential member of the league’s competition committee. He has just resigned from it. I have no idea if his anger over the officiating in the Super Bowl has anything to do with it, but that’s one logical inference.
-- I knew Lendale White was big, but I didn’t know how big. White said he weighed 253 pounds on the day of the Rose Bowl, but he’s down to 238 now. When asked why he was so big in early January, he said, "Thanksgiving and Christmas."
-- Jeff Foster, executive director of National Football Scouting, which runs the combine for the league, said the combine’s contract with Indianapolis expires after next year, and he sounded like he’d love to find a warmer climate for the event. (It used to take place in Tempe, Ariz.)
-- Penn State quarterback Michael Robinson doesn’t like the idea of moving to a new position. "I’ve had teams talk to me about safety," he said. "I haven’t tackled anybody in six or seven years."
-- The NFL’s PR people did a good job of making the players available to the media. Big-name players like Leinart, Bush and Young were given spots at a podium for the crush of reporters, while the lesser-name players were seated at tables where a few home-town reporters could talk to them. But there was one exception: Marcus Vick, the Virginia Tech quarterback whose problems both on the field and off the field are a major story, was moved to a small table even though dozens of members of the media wanted to talk to him. The league obviously didn’t want Vick to be a big story coming out of Indianapolis.
-- DeAngelo Hall was one of the handful of current players in town. Hall, who recently won the NFL’s Fastest Man competition, said that when he was coming out of Virginia Tech, he ran a 4.31-second 40 at the combine.
-- When I asked Detroit coach Rod Marinelli why the Lions put the franchise tag on left tackle Jeff Backus, Marinelli said it was a no-brainer because Backus is "a tremendous football player." Marinelli, who previously served as the Tampa Bay Buccaneers’ defensive line coach, said size wasn’t important to him when evaluating a defensive lineman, an interesting comment for a guy who just took over the team with the huge Shaun Rogers and Dan Wilkinson plugging the middle of the defense. Marinelli said the most important trait for a defensive lineman is hand speed.
-- My most interesting experience was sitting in the bod pod, that futuristic contraption that measures things like metabolism and body fat percentage. If you're claustrophobic, you probably won't enjoy the experience of stripping down to a pair of compression shorts and being enclosed in an egg-shaped apparatus for 50 seconds. But learning that I have 30 pounds of fat in my body was a wonderful motivation to get some exercise when I got home from Indy.
-- Reggie Bush had the best line of the combine, answering the question of what he would like about playing in Texas with, "no state tax."
Aaron Schatz's notes
-- I disagree. I thought the best line of the combine belonged to Jeremy Bloom, when a reporter asked him if he was going to be comfortable with contract clauses that restricted him from skiing or other off-season activities. Bloom's response: "I think Kellen Winslow took care of that for me."
-- As for Nick Saban, I thought he was going to go Hulk around the fifth or sixth Ricky Williams question. "Don't ask about Ricky ... you won't like me when you ask about Ricky..."
-- It would be easy to ignore the fact that these prospects are even in the building because there is so much concern and talk about the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Every coach or general manager who gets up to the podium should just save us all some time by starting their press conference with the following: "I don't know if there's been progress on the CBA, we all want it to get done, we've got two plans for free agency depending on what happens, and I don't know if a college quarterback with an unorthodox throwing motion has to change his style in order to be a successful quarterback in the National Football League. Do you have any non-CBA, non-Vince Young questions?"
(And yes, Tim Gerheim's working on a CBA article for FO, for those looking for one.)
-- One of the many ramifications if there is no CBA and we enter that "2006 by different rules, 2007 uncapped" scenario: it will be even harder than usual for teams at the top of the draft to negotiate contracts with the highest draft picks, since they can only pro-rate bonuses over four years.
-- Part of my goal in coming here was to make connections with people I could use for quotes in future stories. The problem is, I have a terrible memory for names and faces. To give an example, when I walked into the Convention Center on the first day I wandered into was a large seminar for agents being held by Players Inc. On a bench in the hallway outside was a somewhat familiar-looking guy talking on his cell phone. I know this guy, I thought, who is he? Of course, he gave me a look like, "Why are you staring at me?" and so I walked away. Five minutes later it finally hit me why I thought I knew this guy. It was Drew Rosenhaus.
-- My favorite event on the Players Inc. seminar schedule: a 15-minute presentation on the Arena Football salary rules.
-- I would like to thank the folks who voted for Mike Sando as "local writer who deserves more attention." I introduced myself to him yesterday and we ended up hanging out for a couple hours in between scribbling notes on random coach statements. He is definitely a reporter in the stats-friendly FO camp. He has game logs for Seattle games that even have some of the elements we're tracking with the game charting project, and he's very comfortable using this data in his articles. I gave him one of the extra copies of PFP 2005 that I brought with me. Just another reason to hit Seattle on the next book tour. He was also nice enough to introduce me to John Clayton -- Sando actually was Clayton's replacement when Clayton went to ESPN.
-- Most interesting answer I've heard from a prospect, when a reporter asked wide receiver Mike Hass of Oregon State which NFL player's career he wanted to emulate, he said "Ricky Proehl." Not the answer you would expect from a 22-year-old kid.
-- Nearly every question for new Vikings coach Brad Childress was about Daunte Culpepper, but near the end someone asked about running backs and Childress said, "well, we've got a depth problem there, we've only got two right now." Michael Bennett and Moe Williams are both free agents but it sounds like they're writing off Onterrio Smith at this point. Someone did ask specifically about Onterrio later and Childress mentioned that they are not allowed to talk to him until May 1.
-- I did get up to Gary Kubiak after his press conference and told him that we had named our player projection system after him, at which point he looked at me like I had three heads.
-- The city of Indianapolis wanted to charge the NFL an absurd amount of money for Internet connections so we're all going off dial-up. It's like living in the Stone Age.
-- All of the prospects are walking around in these grey sweatshirts with their position and number on the front, name and number on the back. Will Carroll referred to this as fashion from the Bill Belichick Collection.
-- Most of these guys majored in stuff like "sports management" or whatever, but defensive tackle Babatunde Oshinowo of Stanford stayed in school four years and has a degree in electrical engineering. Impressive.
(Second post, 2:15pm)
-- Yes, I can confirm that Vince Young scored a 6 on the Wonderlic. And yes, people are talking about him falling down the draft board. What you have to understand is that once upon a time, guys would come into the combine in all kinds of shape, some good, some bad. Now, almost all of these prospects pay to go to predraft performance camps where they get into terrific shape, practice interviewing skills so that they can impress teams, and take tons of practice Wonderlic tests. So the problem is less that Vince Young scored a 6 on the Wonderlic, and more that Vince Young apparently didn't care enough about the combine to prepare for the Wonderlic so he would have at least scored, I don't know, 15 or something. Which is bad, but not as bad as a 6. What does this say about his work ethic and prima donna syndrome. I've also had it pointed out to me that Vince Young is associated with some, shall we say, unpleasant elements of the Houston community. (Do the names Timmy and Jimmy ring a bell for anyone?)
(Late edit: Given the current story coming out of the NFL, I need to change the first sentence here to "Yes, I can confirm that the Wonderlic test score for Vince Young was a 6." Note the change in subject and object relationship there.)
-- I must resist the urge to ask D'Quell Jackson if he feels a rivalry with D'Brickashaw Ferguson. D'Quell was one of the losers in the media interview game; they have two podiums on opposite ends of the room, and he had to go at the same time as A.J. Hawk. Everyone congregated on the other side of the room. The only guy I saw who had it worse was D.J. Shockley who had to go at the same time that Matt Leinart was on the other side of the room. Shockley had a good sense of humor about it, though.
-- Does anyone know if there's a consensus number one pick for 2007? Right now we're thinking the lowest category in the projection system will be called "The Quest for Quinn."
-- This thing just dies on Sunday. Unlike the last two days, there aren't any coaches or GMs coming in here to talk to us, just players, linebackers and defensive backs today. And not only does the combine die down, but the Indianapolis Convention Center does the strangest cross-scheduling I could possibly imagine. Literally right next to the NFL combine -- with all the people from both events congregating together in the hallway -- is a huge elementary school cheerleading competition. So walking around are all these eight-year-old girls plastered with makeup and their moms, mixed in with colossal defensive linemen in grey sweatshirts, assistant coaches, and random members of the media. One guy said to me, "You know, this would be a lot more useful if these girls were about ten years older, then we could see which of these college kids could keep their hands off the ladies."
-- Also, the annoying autograph hunters are still here. I hate those people. They're just going to turn around and sell this stuff on eBay. I half expected one of them to pull a set of skis out of a bag and hand them to Jeremy Bloom to autograph.
-- This is really odd, but they give you this list of all the kids invited to the combine with position group, sweatshirt number, name, and university. And they give the full name of the university, so you've got Vince Young from "Texas-Austin" and Jason Pociask from "Wisconsin-Madison" and Kevin Boothe from "Cornell-NY." First of all, I didn't expect to find an offensive lineman from Cornell here, and second, what other Cornell is there? By the way, Marcus Vick apparently went to "Virginia Polytechnic Institute" so if the NFL doesn't work out, perhaps he has a career in laptop repair or help desk administration.
-- The only school that isn't listed with its full name? It just says "Ohio St" with no "The."
The best name at the combine: Offensive lineman Guy Whimper.
Aaron, can you confirm Florio's story that Vince Young scored a 6 on the Wonderlic? If so, are people mentioning the possibility of a free fall, or do they still think he'll go high?
Unfortunate attitude by Michael Robinson, especially in contrast to that of Skyler Green. The last thing Robinson needs is to be thought of as the next Eric Crouch.
Mike Holmgren didn't lose the superbowl because of the officiating, he lost the superbowl because he let the officiating get to him. He is acting like a complete child.
Ian
Fox Sports has a blurb on their website that the NFL is set to announce the salary cap tomorrow (about 95 million) and that one NFL owner told his staff that a deal will be made on the CBA before the March 3rd deadline.
Link attached.
I realize there is no direct correlation between wonderlic scores and how well a player plays but I think it's pretty damning to Vince Young that no current Starting QB in the NFL scored lower than a 14 (and that was J.P. Losman) and only 4 scored under a 20.
Combine that with Jay Cutler going all hulk like and we may have the darkest day in the history of sports.....Skip Bayless being......right.
It still boggles my mind that 2 tenths of a second on the 40 yard dash will drop a guy so far in the draft. Do I really need Eric Winston to run 40 yards at a balls to the wall pace in a straight line?
No. No I don't.
Oh no, please no more superbowl comments for the love of god. I think Robinson's words and his actions will diverge at some point. I mean he did spend his college career being shuffled from RB to WR to RB to QB so he's shown a willingness to be a team player.
Was the answer related specifically to a question about playing Safety? I mean switching positions (playing WR instead of QB) is one thing, but switching sides of the ball is quite another.
Great article!
Re: 3
The perception of poor officiating wasn't limited to the Super Bowl, or even this past season.
I'm pretty disappointed that Holmgren stepped down from the Competition Committee, because he seems like someone who can help push for a change. It will be interesting to see if the NFL decides to put its head in the sand again regarding officiating. It was bad in 2004 and got worse in 2005...
Re: Vince Young's Wonderlic
I'd bet $$$ that the rumor originated in New York.
michael robinson has said he is willing to switch positions if it helps his draft stock. though, i've also seen quotes from him that say he would prefer to keep playing QB.
does anyone know where to get info on wonderlick scores?
Wait a minute, could it be our beloved Outsiders are becoming...insiders?
Sounds good to me.
PFW LINK FROM PFT RE WONDERLIC
http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Insider/2005/Wonderl...
– I did get up to Gary Kubiak after his press conference and told him that we had named our player projection system after him, at which point he looked at me like I had three heads.
I think this line is one of the best so far. Great job guys.
– The city of Indianapolis wanted to charge the NFL an absurd amount of money for Internet connections so we’re all going off dial-up. It’s like living in the Stone Age.
I feel your pain. My house is in one of the few places where it is impossible to get cable internet or DSL (no providers), so we're stuck with dial up. My dorm has a nice network connection, so going to my house and trying to use the internet is just painful.
I'm glad to see Sando didn't disappoint. Perhaps the one nice thing the city of Tacoma has going for it :p
What is in the Wonderlick and where can I get it?
And: who made it, why, how and whatfor?
The Wonderlic is a 50 question test of logical reasoning. You get 12 minutes to answer all 50 questions. A score of 20 is considered average and correlates to an IQ of 100, more or less. I don't know its history, but it's not just an NFL product; it saw workplace use back when testing was in vogue (at least in the U.S., not sure about other countries).
The only copy I've seen is in Dr. Z's book The New Thinking Man's Guide to Pro Football. He also give breakdowns for various positions, at least as of when the book was written (like '84). O-linemen generally scored highest, mid-20's, with QBs in the same area, while D-linemen were lowest (like 15 average). The link in #10 above has some information on recent scores, though I don't know how much to trust them, given it was widely reported last year that Ryan Fitzpatrick scored a perfect 50, and that has him down for 38.
As for Young, I thought I remembered hearing how he had dyslexia, but could be mis-remembering. In that case, the Wonderlic might come out difficult, and a non-written test might show his intelligence better. Or he might have scored a 6 because he really, really deserved to.
is vince young illiterate? cuz thats pretty much what u need to get a 6; or truly and sincerely dumb.
I've updated above, and now I'm out of here. I hate this stupid dial-up connection. See you back on my broadband connection in Boston...
They're streaming it online at nfl.com again, but I can't get it to work for me.
again...
2005 draftee scores on wonderlic...
PFW LINK FROM PFT RE WONDERLIC
http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Insider/2005/Wonderl...
also see sample test
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020228test.html
The lowest Wonderlic score ever was "achieved" by Brent Fullwood. Fullwood, for those of you too young to remember, was a running back for Auburn who was literally dumber then a box of rocks.
He scored a 1. By signing his name. And stories continue to circulate that he had to look that up on his drivers license.
To my knowledge Fullwood did not have a learning disability. Just a complete inability to learn. Or retain information. Or do much of anything other then take the ball and run.
He had one good year in 1989 and made the Pro Bowl as an alternate. After that his willingness to have a good time and inability to understand the basics quickly got him on the street.
Stories aplenty about how the Packers tried to help Fullwood understand the playbook. Nothing much helped.
I personally would NEVER draft a player with a Wonderlic score in single digits. I know that seems arbitrary, but an ability to learn matters in ANY profession. And unless the player has a KNOWN issue the team is wasting its resources trying to get someone educated enough to contribute.
Harsh? Probably. But investments in the future are precious commodities. Why bother with defective product?
Be sure to toss around words like "callous", "cruel", and "mean-spirited". If I am going to be labeled at least get the adjectives correct.
Can everyone quit calling it the Wonderlick...that's a totally different test that guys making $5mm a year don't have to take.
A six would be truly atrocious. I mean really horrible and terribly bad. The only caution on this, and it was brought up before is if VY is indeed dyslexic or has some other learning disability. Something like that can make a timed written test almost unpossible (would six on the wonderlic be "the wiggum line"?) to take. You have about 15 seconds for each question, for someone who has difficulty reading that's too high of a hill to climb. Anyone have an insight into VY's SATs. I'm fairly certain that people with reading difficulties can get an exemption and take the test untimed.
Aaron, is he a crip or is he on roids?
The more I see of the combine, 2 tenths seems completely irrelavent in the 40, 3 cone drill or the shuttle, as does any number of BP's over 30. Then you flip the channel over to arena football and you realize that there are more people with the physical tools to play football than you can shake a stick at.
Ultimately, I think the abilities to learn and continually strive to improve onself (both in the filmroom and the weightroom) as well as the intangibles of knowing when to cut/bump etc etc are far more important.
All this kind of leaves me with the most uncomfortable impression that this whole draft process is a huge crapshoot with far more randomness than not. It's February and I feel lost.....someone help me.
Kruger,
Just look at the NBA, NHL, and MLB drafts and you'll realize that NFL GM's do a very good job and the football draft is nowhere near the crapshoot that the other drafts are. The 3-year-rule certainly helps a lot.
Yes, in the NFL draft all the good players are taken in the first round or two.
It's funny Childress said they only have 2 running backs on the roster, mentioning Mewelde Moore and Echemandu. Ciatrick Fason anyone?
Sorry, he mentioned Fason and Moore. Not Echemandu.
As I was leaving the combine (I'm just stopping at the hotel to get my suitcase and drop this note) I heard a rumor that Young retook the Wonderlic today and got 16.
Re 22
But that's just the point. The NFL might have done some tinkering, but it is essentially the same test a company like Duke Power was using to people who shoveled coal (see this Supreme Court case). If Aaron's 16 on a retake score is correct about VY, then I'd be much less concerned about him. That's the sort of score I'd expect from him, and would validate my impression: he's not a cerebral quarterback, but is instead an outstanding athlete who was a spectacular college QB and could be a very good pro if he doesn't get thrown in right away.
Re Aaron's Update
There's a Cornell College in Iowa, thus the need to differentiate.
Re #23
Don't forget the ability to endure pain. Lots and lots of pain.
Rowdy Roddy Piper - the hindlick maneuver is a corporate suckup technique...
There is another explanation I guess for the low score - perhaps Vince thinks the test is just a meaningless roadbump on the way to payday, which wouldnt surprise me at all. And/or he wasnt paying attention at pre-combine training or orientation or whatever he attended or heard from his agent...
Re #26 + #27 - Echemandu and Fason - I was just going from a quote I saw in the Pioneer Press. http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/sports/football/13957177.htm
But maybe he wasn't truly counting Echemandu as one of those two since he's such an unknown.
Marinelli's comments about handspeed reminds me of the SF practice (years ago) of hiring a martial arts instructors for OL/DL and it seemed to really help them, w/their basics and "grappling" techniques. BTW I'm also biased toward guys who have wrestled in high school/college for a number of years as it shows who will consistently win in the trench wars....
Another pre-teen cheerleading competition? I was at the Indy convention center about a month and a half ago and there was one then too. The worst were the overweight ones with bare midriffs *shudder*. No idea why any parent thinks this is a good thing to put their children through.
I'd also like to mention that Cornell College in Iowa is a fine school by all accounts, one of the Colleges That Change Lives (see link)
someone totaled the #s up wrong? profootballtalk says "POSTED 5:56 p.m. EST, February 26, 2006
COMBINE OFFICIAL SCREWED UP VINCE'S WONDERLIC
A league source tells us that Texas quarterback Vince Young indeed scored a six on the Wonderlic test on Saturday -- but that the guy who graded the test screwed the thing up when totaling the number of right answers.
Combine officials, we're told, have re-scored the Young's test and the test of all other players who took it in his group. NFL teams will get the numbers of all players who took the test later in the week.
On Saturday, there was widespread chatter at the combine that Young got only six out of 50 questions right on the standard test used by the NFL to gauge player intelligence. The Nashville Tennessean corroborated the reports of the low score in its Sunday edition.
Whether the actual number was 6 or 50 or something in between remains to be seen.
It's a major embarrassment, in our view, for the folks who put on the combine. Because it's inevitable that this information will get out (indeed, Pro Football Weekly got their mitts on the full Wonderlic results from the 2005 combine), it's critical that the folks charged with grading the tests get it right.
It's even more important that the scores are right before the information is leaked.
We have a feeling that this one could get interesting. Stay tuned.
"
Lot of interesting information there.
Though I wonder why they'd show the AFL Salary, though that might be more geared to those people who are scoring 6 on the Wonderlic.
I think it was Byron Leftwich who scored really low on it his first time around, crammed for it, and then rose it to something halfway decent. I really wouldn't be surprised to see Vince Young take it at least one more time.
Re #36
I don't remember hearing that about Leftwich. Jason Campbell of Auburn, though, was a guy who scored really low the first time and made a dramatic jump, as the PFW link in #19 notes.
The Wonderlic, as with any standardized test, SAT or whatever, is inherently biased. From what I've read about it, gauging intelligence from the Wonderlic is akin to judging a baseball player's worth by how many runs he scores; it's an extremely rough measure. I'd bet that, as stated above, he simply didn't care about it, and why should he? He's going to be one of the first four QBs taken, regardless. I question why NFL teams bother with the test because, while some level of testing would be attractive to smaller companies that are willing to trade in-depth analysis for a quick picture of job applicants' faculties, the NFL and its teams have the time and resources to do in-depth interviews with 300-odd players, rendering the standardized test moot. Frank Gore has severe learning disabilities, so he scored a 6 or so on the Wonderlic. After his knee issues, that also pushed him down to the third round of the draft. And you know what? The Niners performed their due diligence and found that the knees would be the real concern. Vince Young may have learning disabilities, he may simply not care about a standardized test, or he may be afflicted with some issues about "looking too smart", but the fact remains that his throwing motion and ability to make good decisions on the field will be the biggest concerns for his future employer, not whether or not he can do simple math problems quickly.
36, are you thinking of Jason Campbell? He scored a 14 his junior year and a 28 at the combine. Charlie Frye's score also went up by 15 points I believe.
Tough luck for Young even if his score is amended. As they say, perception is reality...
– When I asked Detroit coach Rod Marinelli why the Lions put the franchise tag on left tackle Jeff Backus, Marinelli said it was a no-brainer because Backus is “a tremendous football player.�
MDS: I'm sure you misheard Coach Rod...I'm sure what he said was, "a tremendously sucky player."
Great coverage, gents; please keep up the hard work!
#38, being the fourth and the first qb taken is millions of dollars. ur saying he blew off millions of dollars? the sad part about scoring low on the wonderlic is its like the 40 yard dash, everyone who should be good at it takes it very seriously.
for qbs the wonderlic is just not something u want to bomb unless ur simply too dumb to help it.
Is it just me, or did the University of Texas-Austin run a rather simple offense last year? That doesn't say anything about Young's ability as a QB, but I'm not sure that he will be the kind of guy that you can throw out there immediately in a more complex offense.
I would suspect that Young's agent got worried and started digging.
I have always had my suspicions about the absolute validity of a lot of scored / standardized tests or evaluations. Now, good Wonderlic test scores arent ALWAYS the main indication of a future successful player, but I would think they are worth considering.
How fast will the draftee absorb new information? Can he figure things out for himself or does he have to be led by the nose (desire)? It may not address things like physical courage, throwing distance, leaping height, eyesight, speed.
But it may speak as alluded to above, problem solving ability, ability to adjust to change, spatial cognition, ability to work against a deadline / concentration. Not all of which may be important at all positions. Probably important for a QB tho...
I wouldnt see him drop very far even with a 6/16. A couple of spots maybe. NO, NYJ need a QB and TEN (, OAK, BUF, DET) will need one soon enough. All kinds of teams could be interested in trading up. Most high pick teams need lots of help, not just one player.
Now if Young really has issues about "looking too smart", personally, I'd let him slide.
I'm not really surprised that people who ask a quarterback to press 220 and a lineman to run a 40, are the same people to ask a linebacker how many pages must be in smaller type.
is there any particular reason u dont want to see how fast ur lineman are or how strong ur quarterback is?
"What other Cornell is there?"
There's a Cornell College in Ohio.
As a Colts' fan, I thought the most interesting quote at the combine was Bill Polian saying that the odds of Edgerrin James playing for Indianapolis next year are 50-50. Then I remembered it was Bill Polian and figured that was just his way of saying "none of your bleepin' business."
OTOH, he did admit Vanderjagt is as good as gone, so who knows?
They (team management) might also consider that if a prospect doesnt have the patience to bother with a Wonderlic test, or the ability to even get a decent score then...
a. maybe he wont bother to or be able to comprehend the playbook or the reads
b. maybe he will be too busy spending his signing bonus on extracurricular bling, booze/dope or babes (ref lake minnetonka)
c. maybe he is just in it for the bucks
d. time to generate a low or no bonus and incentive (performance and morals) loaded contract
Pac-man scored a 13...
Madden 2006 players, if you are interested in the Wonderlic, try superstar mode's mini-pseudo Wonderlic test. The best feature of that despereately-needs-more mode.
Cornell College (in Iowa) ROCKS! It's one of the few (1 of 2 when I was deciding on a college) that ran a "one-class-at-a-time" system. You take one course for 4-5 hours a day, for 3 weeks. Then move on to a different class. A Great way to learn.
is vince young illiterate? cuz thats pretty much what u need to get a 6; or truly and sincerely dumb.
:: bob — 2/26/2006 @ 2:50 pm
god, irony is awesome.
slang/abbreviation is different from illiteracy. but thanks for making a useless post.
50/masocc...
Now that's whatcha call IMMERSION TRAINING!
Bob, you're going to have to accept the fact that if you can't be bothered to type y-o, people aren't going to take what you write seriously.
they're welcome to take it anyway they like, but I will point out their inaneness to them.
I believe that's 'inanity.'
Inaneness is a word.
Quick definitions (inane)
adjective: complacently or inanely foolish
http://www.onelook.com/?w=inaneness
I like the comment that the Wonderlic/SAT/other standardized testing is "inherently biased." Of course it is -- toward smart people. If you are not smart you couldn't possibly answer questions that the average person could answer. If you looked at the sample questions that were on ESPN.com you would know that the questions aren't hard.
Now you could argue that getting a low score doesn't mean you're stupid -- more that you've gone to crappy schools where teachers don't care, or education isn't important culturally, or you're a star football player so people have catered to your every need, whatever.
"Inaneness" is a word in the same way as "irregardless" is a word. Again, people who use it are going to have to accept that others aren't going to take them seriously.
The only thing that comes to mind when I hear "Timmy and Jimmy" is Cripple Fight. By the way, that is a tremendous episode/sequence to watch after the ridiculous fight sequence in "They Live" starring Rowdy Roddy Piper.
And speaking of Timmy (and the Lords of the Underworld), is anyone else hoping some team takes Skyler Green a bit earlier than expected, so they can use the phrase/band name "Reach for the Skyler"?
I too dread bringing back SB officiating discussion. But when Holmgren made his statement/joke about it at the Seattle rally, insightful people noted that he's on the competition committee, and in position to do something about the overall quality of officiating (as well as take the blame when it sucks). You have to wonder what this resignation is about - is it a protest, just getting sick of trying, was he pressured/forced out, or some other possibility? Did anyone ask for details?
I would love to see a Buckeye player go all Rodney Harrison about the "the" level of disrespect. Simply classless, NFL. Have you no shame?
Right. Everyone aboard for the grammar rodeo. Of course inanity is a noun and inaneness is an adjective. That would mean Scott B. is correct.
honestly where is this going? inaneness and inanity are both words, u think ppl who use words shouldn't be taken seriously?
this is getting dumb. please for the love of god just stop taking me seriously instead of giving this place useless posts.
and I apologize in advance but miriam webster considers inaneness to be a noun.
Tom,
I have to take issue with your comment about standardized tests being biased toward "smart people." I have done well on most standardized tests, 1380 SAT, 740 GMAT. I think it means that I'm good at standardized tests, not that I'm "smart". And I guess I would know since I do well on those analogy things.
Really, SATs test you on "how to read and think like guys who went to Ivy League schools." But take the person who scored well on the SAT out of this formalized environment and culture and all bets are off.
Just dont use 'preventative'. Or someone will have to preventate it from happening again.
On a side note, the idea of FO becoming actually knowledgeable and press-qualified makes me happy. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?
Michael David Smith and Aaron Schatz do.
I'm still astounded by the 6 on the wonderlic. That's just...wow. It isn't a hard test.
re 64: I agree completely about standardized tests. Usually, the better you know the format etc the better you do, therefore not necessarily a sign of intelligence. However, it is a good sign of how much a player prepared since we seem to agree that the more familiar one is with how the test is set up the better one is likely to do. So, an athlete getting a bad score can be a sign of lack of preparation which is still a bad sign. However, as per post 35, it looks like we'll have to wait to see if Young's supposed score actually happened.
"Mike Holmgren has long been an influential member of the league�s competition committee. He has just resigned from it. I have no idea if his anger over the officiating in the Super Bowl has anything to do with it, but that�s one logical inference."
You could call that a "logical inference"
You could also call it a "blind guess based on nothing"
If you've got a source that says Holmgren quit because of the Super Bowl officiating, name him. Otherwise this is a garbage statement.
It's great to see FO going out and covering an event, but you've got to do better than idle, unsourced speculation.
Kal,
I thought some of them were already press qualified. I guess those are some of the perks of being affiliated with FoxSports.com, another perk is probably writing an article on the plane and editing it through the night so it can show up fresh in the morning... also spending a weekend in February in Indianapolis watching grown men work out run, lift weights, and get measured by guys in suits...
MdM:
Speaking as someone who sat on committees who create the questions for standardized tests I would like to point out the following:
--analogies are no longer a part of the SAT
(Per the website, Since few students are exposed to analogies in their classrooms, the analogy questions have been replaced with more critical reading passages)
--the Ivy League comment is peculiar because frankly I have no idea what you mean
The Educational Testing Service responds to a market need of colleges and institutions looking for a common reference point between applicants. Different schools have different teaching approaches, different curriculums, possible grade inflation, etc.
Standardized testing ATTEMPTS to assess the results of the educational effort of the applicant without any "noise".
Misinformation or conjecture about the supposed "true" nature of the tests serves no constructive purpose.
I imagine the truth is too boring to be considered real.
Jimmy and Timmy...? dont get it.
Re #68
Bill Polian, who's also a member of the Committee was asked about just that subject when Rich Eisen interviewed him on NFL Network, and I'd imagine it was a subject of discussion around the Combine, as well. Holmgren's stated reasons apparently involve his family and Seahawks-related issues, which are understandable. Still, I think it's perefectly legitimate for MDS to bring it up.
Aaron/MDS:
What were your impressions - if any - of the new head coaches?
While I realize that the combine is a staged event and that it's player-centric and that the level of questions is often routine ("Hey coach, what do you think of player X/Y/Z?"), I'm curious if either of you came away thinking that one of these guys might actually have a clue (or not).
P.S. Did either of you see Dr. Z in Indy? Just curious.
Thank you, NFCCF.
Yes, the test is a "game," in that it can be beaten by logical reasoning...which is precisely what it tests for (ask anyone who's ever worked for Kaplan or PR).
On that note, standardized testing is also the only measurable way that an entity (college, NFL team, whatever) can quantifiably measure potential success. Sure, it's not going to provide an accurate reflection all the time; every metric has its outliers...but in testing measurable intellectual ability and critical thinking, Wonderlic, SAT, GRE, and other standardized tests paint an accurate picture almost every time.
That said, I think that regardless of what the test says about Young's mental prowess, it says volumes about his willingness to prepare, and his reliance only on his physical abilities...because we haven't seen that in other prima donnas; certainly not ones named Keyshawn, Ryan, or Michael-Mike-Ron.
72 -
But Tom, if it was a subject of discussion at the combine - and I don't doubt that it was - talk to some people on the record and tell us what they said. Just taking a guess is weak.
Even with a 16, it would give the opinion that Vince Young absolutely depends on his athletic abilities rather than his thinking abilities. This does not necessarily mean that a GM should not draft him. But a GM and coach should be absolutely aware of what they are getting. They are getting a Mike Vick, a Kordell Stewart type player. A player who shouldn't have 100s of plays to memorize. If you draft Vince Young, you design the plays for him, you don't fit him into your offensive system. Also, because of this, you design plays for the backup qb, or you have a similar qb as the backup, because injury is always a possibility. Its provides for exciting games, though with inconsistent results in the pro game.
I'd also do the contract heavily performance (and perhaps good behavior) laden--which right now isn't a good time, unless a new CBA gets signed. A GM should think long and hard before drafting Vince Young in the top 5, because that pick will force their hands in other ways as well. The investment price may be too high for what is a risky pick. But then, that's probably true of taking Bush with #1. But Bush doesn't run the offense. Don't know what his score on the wonderlic was, but as a RB, he isn't put into question as much for a low score.
– I did get up to Gary Kubiak after his press conference and told him that we had named our player projection system after him, at which point he looked at me like I had three heads.
What was the reason for that, by the way?
– The city of Indianapolis wanted to charge the NFL an absurd amount of money for Internet connections so we’re all going off dial-up. It’s like living in the Stone Age.
Yeah, I heard about this from someone else I know who's at the combine. Matt Miller of nfldraftalmanac. People aren't too pleased about it.
About Vince Young:
Apparently, they screwed it up the first time, and they administered the Wonderlic again, where he did somewhat better. Still not that great, but better than the 6.
The reason the SAT and the Wonderlic are not great tests of inate intelligence and are biased is that you can improve your score with practice. Now tell me, can you make yourself smarter by practicing being more intelligent? Obviously only a little if at all. The bias in the SAT comes in becuase certain test-takers have the benefit of having taken similar tests many times, while other test takers are seeing it for the very first time. These differences are often related to socio-economics.
NFC Central Freak,
I'm sorry, but being an old-timer (31 years old), I guess I'm kind of out of touch on the SAT. I did take the GMAT on the computer, though, that was pretty new-fangled.
I think I understand the motivations behind standarized tests, but the results and the unintended consequences are often different from the intentions. We can trace this all the way back to the first IQ tests for the 1st world war (I think), that "scientifically" proved that Polish people were the stupidest of all American immigrants. I assume you have read up on this history and are aware of it.
Now, you seemed puzzled by my "Ivy League Comment." If you are interested, I suggest you read this article by Malcom Gladwell about Stanley Kaplan. http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_12_17_a_kaplan.htm
an excerpt:
"The S.A.T. was a test devised by a particular institution, by a particular kind of person, operating from a particular mind-set. It had an ideology, and Kaplan realized that anyone who understood that ideology would have a tremendous advantage."
In 2001, the University of California did a study of the predictive value of the SAT, and found it to negligibly add to that found by GPA and achievement tests.
Personally, I find this stuff interesting, and I hope you do since you said that you are part of the process.
#75
I don't think anybody else has anything more than uninformed speculation, and were I an NFL exec or figure, I'd be unwilling to speak on the record about such.
#76
That's why I think Steve McNair is a great comparison as to who VY could become; VY is, I think, more polished than McNair was when he came out of Alcorn State, and better at making pass/run reads than Mac was his first couple years as a pro, but I think the same sort of easing in process would be necessary.
RE: 37
JP Los(t)man scored a 14 his first time. He later cheated and got a pretty high score.
Re #80
Right, the SAT was designed by Ivy League schools to expand their applicant pool beyond the traditional base (see this book for details), and to be able to objectively compare certain aspects of intelligence. And that's what I think what the Wonderlic does; it tests an aspect of intelligence and learning that may not be covered that well in other areas. The variability in scores (Jason Campbell didn't magically get that much smarter) shows that it's not infallible, but is instead a tool that could add to what you know about a prospective draft pick. The reported 6 would thus be notable because it's such an outlier, while a 16 would be much more in range with expectations.
63 - and I apologize in advance but miriam webster considers inaneness to be a noun.
Miriam who?
yah i misspelled it, let the fun begin. misspelling things is probably up there w/ using words like inaneness and abbreviations.
irregardless though I will try to trudge on with actual content.
Kevin Boothe from “Cornell-NY.�
Go Big Red!
Now I'll have to keep track of the draft for sure. I haven't been this excited since Derrick Harmon stepped out of bounds in Super Bowl XIX.
And I see a few people already mentioned the Cornell College in Iowa...
masocc (50) - My son asks what the other one is.
Hey Tom:
"Next time, why don't you do a little research"
"If Leftwich is really lights-out at his workout, the other tools are there. He's not only very intelligent (Leftwich and Palmer had almost identical Wonderlic scores just above 30), he has personality-plus." --Chris Mortensen, 2003
i dont have much of an appetite, thanks
The wonderlic test is just one more way the NFL measures players. You can improve it by practice so a guy who jumps 15 points at least shows a willingness to learn.
NFL teams will look at all the evidence and the smart ones will give by far and away the biggest weight to on field performance.
I think there will be severe doubts about Young now - when he gets to the NFL he's going to be playing against lots of other talaented athletes and he may not have all the tools needed. Whoever drafts him needs to taylor the Offence to his skills - can't see him mastering the WCO for example.
Of course a players ability to visualise the playing field from X and O diagrams doesn't always translate into general intelligence. So I still think Young will go Top 10 but he may slide down a few spots - and at that level he's probably just cost himself millions of bucks.
There is plenty of evidence the Wonderlic is a load of crap. Follow the link to see my blog post about it.
Israel (#87): The jackass in me want to tell you to teach your son how to Google.
Instead, the nice side of my persona will say:
"I've forgotten. It was somewhere in Arizona, I think. Possibly the University of Phoenix, before it became an online education empire. This WAS 1993-ish, after all. Oh, and I also know that quite recently, The University of Montana-Western became the first PUBLIC one-class-at-a-time (or immersion scheduling) university. Finally, that article refers to 3 OCAAT private institutions. I'll leave the rest of the googling up to your son.
Masocc, my son does fine, thank you.
Certainly better than I in that regard.
He had the one in Colorado, but asked since he didn't know if you had another in mind. If yours is from 1993, then that probably tells him it's irrelevant to his current inquiry.
MdM:
I knew Stanley Kaplan. Talked to him many times. Stanley was a smart guy. But more then that he was a GREAT marketer.
Stanley created a program predicated on having folks think he had special insight. And it is certainly possible that in the early stages of standardized testing Stanley did provide the CUSTOMERS (he always called them students which I considered B.S. because these folks were shelling out serious cash) an edge.
Stanley has passed on but the "story" he peddled to get folks to enroll in his program clearly lives on. Though I shouldn't be too surprised. The folks over at Princeton Review love to create an "us vs. them" framework when pushing their products to a public incredibly willing to believe any tall tale.
I know folks want to believe in the great East Coast White Male Conspiracy in action when it comes to these test. But that is so far removed from the truth of the situation as to be more appropriate for readers of National Enquirer then this forum.
Frankly, I am flabbergasted that anyone would still pass around that canard.
At the end of the day if folks can read and think clearly the reading portion of any of these tests will be pretty straightforward. Personally, I think folks get in a tizzy about the tests and fuss is twofold:
--a lot of folks just do NOT have effective reading skills.
--Math freaks people out
So an excuse had to be concocted that would explain why Johnny or Mary didn't get a high score.
It's the SAT that gets all the attention. You rarely hear folks complain about the MCAT. Or GRE. Or GMAT. Or LSAT. Or FMGEMS. Or TOEFL. Need I go on???
And for the record I do NOT get paid for my time.
So the story now is that someone erred in the grading of Young's Wonderlic test? I suppose that's possible (though it seems pretty unlikely). It seems at least as likely, IMO, that the NFL created a cover story (once the score leaked) to allow Vince (and handlers) to save face and reduce the potential for legal action against the league.
Nobody involved benefits from having this sort of thing public. In fact, everyone involved suffers. Young from the perception that he's not smart. Texas from the perception that Young's accademic career was a sham. The NFL from it's failure to keep the results confidential and allegations of biased testing.
I've got no idea what really happened here, but with everyone's interest being served by the new story, I'm a bit skeptical.
Wonder why MDS would assume that King was being completely honest when he claimed not to have Favre's number? Obviously, depending on the context of the conversion, complete disclosure might not have been the best decision.
Re: #92. Looks like your son and I BOTH need to brush up on our Googling skills. Here is the official verdict:
3 Private schools:
1) Cornell College ('OCAAT')
2) Colorado College ('Block Plan')
3) Tusculum College ('Focused Calendar')
1 Public school:
University of Montana-Western
Cornell, by far, has the best reputation of those four, and is in fact quite well respected. Anecdotally, while I ended up choosing NOT to attend there (Iowa + Private school tuition = ugh), I did almost all of my undergrad studies with a grad student that did, and he raved about it.
UMW seems like they're on the right track, though. Then he'd just have to worry about establish residence in *Montana* of all places. Blah.
But alas, it's a private school
Wow.... so much misinformation so little time...
First on Test Bias. Yes standardized test were often thought to be biased in the past, and still are to some degree. One highly reported incident was when the SAT used the anology of Luge is to Sled as blank is to blank. Kids north of the mason dixon obviously did better than the kids that only saw snow on TV. More daming were racial biases. Anyone that has ever tried to read "The Art of War" can attest to the fact that about 40 pages in it's hard to recall all of the names and cities with any kind of detail. All people are better at identifing proper names that they deal with on a more regular basis. When we can easily identify those names, we are better at association of facts and attributes. This helps tremendously on test. These days all of the old paragraphs about Bill and Sara have been at least partially replaced by a much more diverse subset. You might also notice that often in mathmatical word problems names will each start with a different initial. This is especially true for the LSAT. The content of the paragraphs was also altered. Whereas before the paragraph might be a summary of a Mark Twain novel, they now include a more diverse background. This helps balance against schools that were more versed in the novels that were represented on the test. However, for the reasons I'll list below, the Wonderlic has not really been subject to the same kinds of problems.
First the SAT and Wonderlic are not the same beast.
The SAT is a general intelligence exam. It test critical thinking, reading comprehension, mathmatics, vocabulary, ext... The Wonderlic is designed to test the ability to think critically and learn material. It is not an IQ test. If you took two people and taught them the exact same material they would score the same on the SAT, but if person A learned the material in 1 week and person 2 took 4 months, then you would expect person A to score much better on the Wonderlic. The test itself revolves around familar situations. They use things like numbers, days of the week, and coins to set up their test. These are inherently not biased. A question might be something like... "If you are to take a test three days from now, and yesterday was monday, what day of the week will you take the test?" The questions are easy, but require a careful reading and a quick mind.
By the way... I don't have a good list of all players and their scores... but I do recall a few people that have scored incredible poorly on the test recently... ones that stick out are Sean Taylor, Kellen Winslow, PacMan Jones, Michael Bishop, Jeff George, and Sebastian Janikowski. I'll let you look at the list yourself and decide if you think there is a trend. I don't worry as much about their ability to learn the position. I'm more concerned with their ability to become a responsible adult.
Re 79:
Having not taken either the SAT or Wonderlic recently, you are free to take this with a grain of salt, but I did recently retake the LSAT. The first 3 pages (that no one actually reads) actually goes into detail the process for establishing the grading scale and question difficulties. It is a goal of the test administrators to create a test that the same individual will general score in the same score range no matter how many times they take the test. I forget the specifics, but I do recall it being quite accurate. Something like 80+% of all people that retake the test end up in the same score bracket (where a score bracked would be give or take 2% or so).
The Wonderlic has had some high profile improvements on retakes, but I think it might be especially vunerable to improvement. While I think the SAT is not. In order to test critical thinking the Wonderlic relies on reoccuring themes and comparisons. Studying those situations could certainly improve your score. Of course when there are millions of dollars riding on these contracts, and well connected agents willing to go that extra mile... I can think of other ways to improve the scores too.
Hi. Let's see if I can answer some questions...
Dr. Z was the one person we didn't see, although I didn't recognize Len Pasquarelli until someone told me he has grown a beard since his ESPN picture. King was very nice to us, remembers the homage contest, and sure did not seem to be giving us BS on Favre. He has a reason to like us, as he is a loyal Baseball Prospectus subscriber and we have their official blessing. (While in Indy he went to Will's radio studio to do a BP Radio appearance, talking about his love of baseball.)
The NFL is very negative about giving credentials to independent websites, but the affiliation with FOX Sports and the NY Sun allows us to get them. Responding to comment 68, we weren't really going to report, per se. I mean, I met the Czar there and he's the guy who does the reporting for FOXSports.com, not me. We went to soak in the atmosphere and learn from our conversations with coaches and other writers. The goal wasn't as much to write something excellent now, but rather to become more knowledgeable and connected so that we can write better analysis in the long run. But we figured we had some interesting stuff and some funny stuff to put together into this little diary.
The Holmgren thing, all the reporters we had discussions with agree with me and Mike that we have two and two here and it sure does look like it makes four. But nobody said to us, "Yep, that's why he quit."
We are still outsiders, we don't know a lot of people in the league, but the few people I do know, when I find out something that isn't really public knowledge, I'm not going to report it on this site. That's not what we're about -- instead, I use that information so that when you buy PFP 2006, the unit comments for that particular team are more accurate, or perhaps a game preview in the middle of the season contains better insight on what a team is trying to do because I spoke to a coach who is friends with another coach and shared some of that guy's strategy with me.
Oh, and I didn't know about Cornell of Iowa, and that place can't be good for anyone with ADD. 4-5 hours of the same subject per day? In a row? Eek.
If we're talking about Vince Young, and I'm an NFL coach/GM, I'm much less concerned about the 6 or 16, and more about the fact that the more you talk with Mr. Young, the more of a risk he seems to be.
His oft-repeated stance of "I think my throwing motion is fine, and I'm not going to listen to any coach that wants to change it" is troublesome - not just because of the throwing motion, but because it exudes a "I know better than any coach" aura, and we know where that kind of thinking can lead (see: Moss, Randy; Johnson, Keyshawn; Owens, Terrell). The fact that Mack Brown has said that he essentially had to stop coaching Young and just "let him play" is another troubling thing - that worked in college, but will it work in the NFL? On the same vein, I wouldn't care about the Wonderlic score itself as much as I'