Official Thread for Irrational Brady-Manning Arguments Part II
The original version of this thread first appeared back in July 2004 as a way to move all the Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning debate out of other discussions and into one place. We don’t know why people have a tendency to lose their minds over this issue, but it really does take over every discussion thread if we let it. At one point, a discussion of the San Francisco 49ers’ salary cap problems turned into a debate over Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. Every time the Colts play the Patriots, we are in danger of this site becoming all Brady-Manning all the time. Therefore, Football Outsiders has two hard and fast rules:
1) Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are tied for the title of best quarterback in football.
2) Any discussion of whether one is better than the other must go in this thread, and will be deleted from all other discussion threads.
If you want to read the first 850+ comments in this thread, and a longer discussion of the whole Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning problem, click here.
Disclaimer: This discussion is far, far sillier than the other discussion threads on this site, and it is meant to be. The rest of the website is not like this.
posted
10-29-2006 at 9:20 PM by
The Outsiders
||
Open Discussion
Peyton leads in passer rating at the moment, 103.2 to 86.9.
But anyway. If you put either of them on… oh, I dunno. what’s our current “worst team in football?” Not sure you can say its the Raiders anymore. The Dolphins. Put them there, and who do you think has greater success?
:: andrew apold — 10/30/2006 @ 12:57 am
Did we need this? I thought the other thread was operating fine.
Oh, and the issue has been resolved.
“Remember when (Michael) Jordan was playing and he came into town and people stood outside the arena just to see him? That’s him,” Broncos defensive lineman Ebenezer Ekuban said. “He’s a phenomenal quarterback. The best quarterback I’ve faced in my eight years in the league.”
You can go about your biz now.
:: Nathan — 10/30/2006 @ 1:00 am
I needed an excuse to turn Part I into a static page and clean 850+ comments out of our overloaded database — and this needed to be on the front page for this week or else the Brady-Manning nonsense would show up in every other thread.
:: Aaron Schatz — 10/30/2006 @ 1:02 am
Wow, you’re right. That thread sure takes it’s sweet time loading.
I just like the fun of the old thread. I have many comments there, and am sure was one of the many catalysts for it’s existance :)
:: Nathan — 10/30/2006 @ 1:05 am
Okay, last one before sleep. This was one of my favorite things from the old thread.
# 275
Put Brady on the Colts.
Are they better or worse?
(Hint, Worse.)
Put Manning on the Patriots
Are they better or worse?
(Hint, Better.)
What does that mean? I don’t know.
:: Nathan — 7/23/2004 @ 7:36 pm
# 789
RE: 275
Right on.
:: Nathan — 11/1/2005 @ 7:45 pm
# 841
#
RE: 789
Please tell me you didn’t just reference your own post from 16 months ago. You might as well just post it again. It’s not like anyone would know the difference (unless someone took it upon themselves to read this meaningless thread in one shot).
This whole thread is kind of a joke to me. I seriously can’t believe there are morons out there who think Steve Young wasn’t anything special. I know there are all kinds of morons, but that really is a special breed…
:: Sid — 11/9/2005 @ 1:01 pm
And yet, someone did!
:: Nathan — 10/30/2006 @ 1:13 am
There should really be a Sorgi-Cassel thread.
:: Bill Barnwell — 10/30/2006 @ 1:18 am
Sweet! It’s so good you came back to me, baby, I missed you all this time. Don’t go away on me again, okay, I promise to be faithful and never post to another thread again. I swear.
Okay, wait, wait, wait, let’s see if I can bring back the old magic: Put Manning on the Pats and they win those SBs plus maybe a couple more regular season games; put Brady on the Colts, and they don’t do as well. Yeah, yeah, that feels so good.
Oh, and Andrew #1, if you put either of them on the Cards, say, I would guess that both WRs make the pro bowl and they win 8 games despite a shit OL. I think Manning is a little more mobile than TB (neither is a statue, but both work better in the pocket), especially this year early it was clear he’d been practicing the rollout passes against Jax and NYG I think. But I think Manning has to go with Tom Moore and his audible system–if he runs a “dumb” offense he’s a lot less effective. Just another Brady, really. Put either of them in Chicago and the Bears would be 7-0, if you can believe that. Wha? never mind.
Okay, I haven’t seen Paulette on this site in a few years; where is she to come back and wallop me over the head with a couple Lombardi Trophies?
:: Bobman — 10/30/2006 @ 1:25 am
Here’s my irrational M-B argument.
When the Colts come into town to play your team, you’re afraid that Manning is going to pick your secondary apart mercilessly.
When the Patriots come into town, you’re just as scared of the team as a whole as you are of the Colts. But are you thinking for one second “Oh, damn, Brady’s going to light our secondary up for 350 yards?”
:: Yaguar — 10/30/2006 @ 1:30 am
!!!!REX GROSSMAN!!!!!!
:: Basilicus — 10/30/2006 @ 1:36 am
ESPN.com’s Scouts Inc. gives Brady a 98 out of 100 overall and Manning a 96 out of 100 overall. What are their Madden ratings? The more fuel on this fire, the better!
:: Tally — 10/30/2006 @ 1:42 am
Their Madden ratings are 99 for Manning and 98 for Brady. My arbitrary quantification of playing ability is better than yours.
:: Yaguar — 10/30/2006 @ 1:46 am
Both quarterbacks would be pretty average if you switched them between teams. Tom Brady works in an offense that Belichick prefers to have the passing game heavily supported by the rushing game, while the Colts have a pass-oriented offense in which the running game is setup by forcing defenses to play against the pass. Tom Brady is very good at play-fakes because of this, and Peyton Manning is very good at making long passes to stretch the defense. Take away the power running game and Tom Brady’s playfaking isn’t so useful, take away the elite receiver duo of Harrison and Wayne and Peyton will not be able to complete as many deep passes.
Also, the no-huddle offense is very time-consuming for an offense to prepare. They must devote a significant amount of time in training camp practicing the recognition of the calls and their roles in each play, and during the season must make alterations every week to prevent teams from recognizing the audibles. Time is finite, so no-huddle teams are giving up practice time that would otherwise be used to help other parts of the offense. In Belichick’s case, he works a lot of interesting twists into the offense every week, and the execution of these depends on the team being well-prepared.
Brady and Manning are in different offenses that depend on different strengths in the quarterback. As far as raw statistics, do you think that Peyton Manning wouldn’t have handed the ball off more often in 2004 in key situations if he had a running back (Corey Dillon) who had twice as much DVOA as his actual running back (Edgerrin James), but had zero receiving ability while Edge was one of the best receivers in the league out of the backfield in 2004.
:: NF — 10/30/2006 @ 1:52 am
*genuflect*
:: ChrisFromNJ — 10/30/2006 @ 1:52 am
Dammit! I missed!
:: ChrisFromNJ — 10/30/2006 @ 1:52 am
Brady, this year, has been good. Manning is the MVP of the league after 8 weeks.
:: randomn00b — 10/30/2006 @ 1:52 am
#9, indeed.
Sure, Manning strikes fear into the hearts of opposing defenses, but when Rexy comes into town, guns a-slingin’, the opposing offense, special teams, and coach also fall apart in horror. After seeing what he did to the Cardinals, there can be little doubt that it’s time to crown a new king of the irrational QB thread.
:: Dan — 10/30/2006 @ 1:56 am
Brady is on the steroids.
:: The Ninjalectual — 10/30/2006 @ 1:57 am
What’s the reference in Moving the Chains, if you don’t mind me asking?
:: PMD — 10/30/2006 @ 2:03 am
All I can say is, I was at the Denver-Indy game today, and Manning was the best quarterback that I’ve seen play live since John Elway. He was absolutely spectacular today, and Tom Brady looked average when he faced the same Broncos defense (with admittedly fewer offensive weapons).
So here’s a vote for Manning.
:: Bronco Jeff — 10/30/2006 @ 2:05 am
Hey, I know we’re on a website that is all about better statistical analysis (and I’m all for it, being a long-time devotee of the baseball equivalent), but I’m still relatively new here. And I’m sure the arguments go back and forth all day long, and you’d be hard pressed to place an argument for Tom Brady putting up the numbers that Peyton does. But much like arguing ARod is the best player in all of baseball… and he is by a lot of measures… would you really take ARod first for a playoff series above all other players? And would you really take Peyton before Brady for the playoffs? And I’m open to hearing “yes, Peyton has just been unlucky/been given bad gameplan/etc.”
:: Derek — 10/30/2006 @ 2:14 am
Oh, and is it legal for me to use actuall FO stats in an irrational debate? I think it’s worth pointing out that Manning’s DPAR blows Brady’s out of the water. It’s not like Brady has the 2nd best DPAR every year, or even the third. In his 2001 Cinderella season, he ranked 15th in DPAR, less than a point above Buffalo Bills quarterback Alex Van Pelt. No, I am not kidding. Manning ranked sixth.
In 2002, Brady ranked 14th in passing DPAR behind the illustrious company of Michael Vick, Aaron Brooks, and Tommy Maddox. Manning ranked fourth.
From 2003-2006, Brady has ranked tenth, third, third, and eighth in DPAR. Manning? First, first, first, and first.
:: Yaguar — 10/30/2006 @ 2:20 am
We hate A-Rod because he’s soft. We love Eckstein because he’s hard-nosed, team player.
So, therefore, we hate Peyton because he’s soft. We love Brady because he’s a team player.
Except, and this is what really gets me, Peyton is so much more relatable to the average American than Brady is.
Peyton is goofy, neurotic, and average looking. He’s not obnoxious at all. He’s actually rather down to Earth.
Brady is classy, calm, and handsome. He dates actresses and supermodels very publicly. Looks good in a suit.
If Brady and Manning both went to high school with me, it’s Brady, by far, that I would have hated.
And yet, this doesn’t translate on the national stage. What did Peyton ever do to make so many people hate him so much?
I don’t get it.
:: Michael Zannettis — 10/30/2006 @ 2:20 am
I was surprised by all the Sorgi love in the other thread. Haven’t you seen what his teams do in the playoffs, year after year? They lose. You can try to make excuses for him or to shift the blame over to his teammates, but the fact is that he’s the quarterback and he failed to lead his team to victory when it counted.
Plus, no matter who his running mate is, he has no chance until 2016 (unless we get the Constitution changed before then). So unless you want to petition for the Sorgi Amendment, calm down for a few years or his campaign is going to peak way too soon.
:: Dan — 10/30/2006 @ 2:44 am
Are we involving salary cap issues, because Peyton’s gargantua-contract (also titled “No Real Defense Ever”) versus Tom Brady restructuring his contract to ease the Pats’ burden (also titled “I’m So Great”) is really the kicker that evens the playing field in my mind.
Oh, wait, gotta be irrational. Um…hey, #22, it’s because on the national level we’re always looking for someone whose place we’d want to take rather than someone we can relate to, unless we’re electing presidents, in which case we like guys who can’t form complete sentences or ever.
I know I’d rather. Take Tom Brady’s place with Bridget than Peyton’s place with Archie and Eli. Or is it Peyton place with a young Mia Farrow? I’d still opt for Miss Moynahan myself.
:: Basilicus — 10/30/2006 @ 2:53 am
Who’s better against the 3-4?
Maybe it won’t matter this year, with the Steelers tanking and the Chargers shedding linebackers, but Manning still looks like an average quarterback against some defenses.
:: Jake — 10/30/2006 @ 2:59 am
Wait, this is supposed to be silly?
In that case, I’m going with the “Brady is a winnah.” argment.
He clearly wins games.
Oh yeah, and his team can’t lose confidence in him, which as all pundits know is a death sentence for any player.
:: Jake — 10/30/2006 @ 3:07 am
Tom Brady is clearly underrated because he went to MICHIGAN. Using African Juju to determine his fate is way better than this! GO BLUE!
:: Mike — 10/30/2006 @ 3:07 am
22- Peyton Manning’s in approximately 100,000 more commercials than Brady. He’s the son of a pro quarterback, the brother of another one. Brady’s loved by his teammates and OLine. Manning kills puppies in his spare time. Brady’s more likeable.
:: Count — 10/30/2006 @ 3:11 am
Anyway, I don’t see why we have to choose one as better than the other. As a Pats fan I like Brady much more (obviously), though Manning’s often very impressive. I prefer Brady, i’m sure Colts fans prefer Manning, and they’re both great. Brady’s won three superbowls, and Manning has appeared in three hundred commercials. Everybody wins.
As a sidenote, it really really sucked to see Vinatieri kick the winning field goal against the Broncos.
:: Count — 10/30/2006 @ 3:15 am
As a sidenote, it really really sucked to see Vinatieri kick the winning field goal against the Broncos.
“We understand that Robert Kraft and Bill Belichick must be embarrassed, frustrated and disappointed by their failure in this transaction. Unlike the Colts, they chose not to go the extra distance for their fans in Boston. It is understandable, but wrong for fans try to deflect the accountability for their mistakes on to others and onto a system for which they voted in favor. It is time to get on with life and forget the sour grapes.”
:: Craigers — 10/30/2006 @ 3:32 am
Hey, enough of this bi-partisan sanity! (generally good analysis, BTW).
I am pretty sure Basilicus is mistaken in #24 about that old canard of salary cap–I’d bet a buck that Tom “Andrew Carnegie” Brady is higher than Payton “Daddy Warbucks” Manning this year and last year too. I think next year is one of those goofy roster bonus years that pops Manning’s cap hit from about $9M to about $16M (just going from memory). And like McNair, it was intended to cause a restructuring or they’ll cut him.
bwa-ha-ha, I kill me. Okay, a restructuring, then.
Michael Zannettis, VERY interesting logic. I suspect Manning’s acting has won him some fans–the Sports Center spot in particular, though maybe Eli steals the show looking like everybody’s sullen, picked-on little brother (who, cough, happens to be 6-5, 225 lbs and a multimillionaire–who doesn’t love picking on those little punks!). In HS, I’d have hated whichever one of them would have ranked ahead of me academically (maybe Manning). Actually, we’d have been pals as it was tough to find other 3.95 GPA jocks.
Derek, here’s a parallel that drives NE fans nuts (and it’s pretty accurate, IMHO): Tom Brady = Derek Jeter. Stats? Pshaw! It’a all about the rings. Selfless, irreplacable, multi-function player, comes up biggest in the biggest games, well-spoken, easy on the eyes (for gals and non-traditional males, as TMQ likes to say), suave man-about-town who dates A-list celebrities.
Yeah, that 3-4 defense thing… I fall back on the “beats the shit outta me” defense since Manning beat Pitt and NE in the regular season last year, as well as losing to SD and then Pitt in the playoffs. Historically, he’s had his worst games against 3-4’s, but claims it’s not the schemes but the personnel. Um, yeah, okay….
:: Bobman — 10/30/2006 @ 3:40 am
Oh, obligatory irrational Brady/Manning argument: while “Tom Brady” anagrams to TARDY MOB, “Peyton Manning” anagrams to GIN NON-PAYMENT. I think this clearly shows the superiority of Brady - you don’t aruge with a mob, no matter how late it is.
:: Craigers — 10/30/2006 @ 3:41 am
I cannot imagine not taking Manning over brady if I hd the chance, although I think the differences in situation and system make it a little different than it seems. You also have to factor in that while Manning has better offensive pieces, he is also usually starting from worse field position (at least in years other than last year).
:: Becephalus — 10/30/2006 @ 3:47 am
#22:
Tagliabue: “With the first pick of the 1998 NFL Draft, the Indianapolis Colts select Peyton Manning, Quarterback, Tennessee”
Kiper: “As we go over a few of the latest picks in the 2000 NFL Draft, Tennessee takes a guy with good potential in Robaire Smith, St. Louis takes Matt Bowen who will do excellent on special teams for the. New England makes an intriguing pick at #199 with Michigan QB Tom Brady. This is a guy who doesn’t have the best tools but he was winner, could develop into a solid backup blah blah blah…”
People love the underdog story…
:: The Leon Express — 10/30/2006 @ 3:49 am
Best QB in the NFL????
This should be an argument between PHIL RIVERS AND KELLEN CLEMENS…RRRRRAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
:: The Leon Express — 10/30/2006 @ 3:53 am
And would you really take Peyton before Brady for the playoffs? And I’m open to hearing “yes, Peyton has just been unlucky/been given bad gameplan/etc.�
-The teams which have beaten the Colts in the playoffs the last 3 years have gone on to win the Superbowl.
-Take a look at what happened in Manning’s playoff games.
From memory, because I really should be studying:
Vanderjagt misses a 30(?) yard field goal against Miami which would have forced OT.
The Colts defense gets lit up by the Jets, leaving Manning with no choice but to play catch up by the time he finally gets a chance to put a drive together.
The Colts receivers get mugged in New England, instigating an investigation into the officiating and subsequent ‘re-interpretation’ of the rule.
The snow game where Manning played horribly and he had no help from his receivers or his pro bowl RB.
The ‘protection problems’ game where Vanderjagt misses a FG as time expires which would have forced OT. Now Manning has some responsibility here because he calls the protections for the Indy offense, but its pretty clear the o-line did struggle badly against the Steelers.
It should also be noted the Colts benefited from the Polamalu non-INT call in this game.
What has Marvin Harrison ever done in the playoffs? Why is it that Edgerrin James goes missing every January?
Are we involving salary cap issues, because Peyton’s gargantua-contract (also titled “No Real Defense Ever�) versus Tom Brady restructuring his contract to ease the Pats’ burden (also titled “I’m So Great�) is really the kicker that evens the playing field in my mind.
Brady gets way too much credit for this. (Thanks PK!)
He signed a massive deal worth $13 million a year over the first 3 years (after which it is inevitably torn up). Manning’s deal is worth $15 million a year for the first 3 years.
Not sure why no one ever mentions Manning restructuring his contract last offseason so the Colts could sign guys like Mathis and Vinatieri.
:: Truman — 10/30/2006 @ 4:14 am
As a Bills fan I have to say Manning is better but its mainly down to getting beat by NE twice a year and Indy only once every three years.
Re 37
They don’t mention Manning Restructuring because then they would lose one part of the argument for Brady being better.
:: MET — 10/30/2006 @ 5:13 am
Everyone knows Manning is better.
The only argument to think Brady is better is that he plays right defensive end sometimes.
:: Theo — 10/30/2006 @ 5:15 am
This argument was only fun when there were still people out there who actually clung to the delusion that Brady is better.
:: Kevin Nowell — 10/30/2006 @ 6:53 am
I’m kind of surprised that people think that Brady has a much stronger supporting cast than Manning does.
Put Brady on the Colts and they’ve already won the Super Bowl instead of choking in the playoffs. Put Manning on the Pats and they don’t beat the Raiders in the Snow Bowl, much less beat the Rams in the first Super Bowl.
Chamberlain always had better stats than Russell. Russell had the rings.
:: Rick — 10/30/2006 @ 7:18 am
“What did Peyton ever do to make so many people hate him so much?”
A lot of things. He’s been annointed as a golden boy from his frosh year at Tennessee, and has yet to win a championship at any level. But for me the incident with Vanderjagt is telling: he called Vanderjagt “liquored up” which was a complete lie, and that smear has gone on to follow Vanderjagt around to the point where people joke about it as if it were true. Smearing one’s own teammate is pretty weak.
Brady has never done anything like that. There’s been ample oppurtunity for him to throw teammates under the bus, ranging from Bledsoe to Branch, and he’s never done it.
:: Rick — 10/30/2006 @ 7:25 am
“Chamberlain always had better stats than Russell. Russell had the rings.”
“What did Peyton ever do to make so many people hate him so much?�
Damn, this is really sounding more and more like A-Rod versus Jeter. That’s so depressing.
Of course, baseball is different, what with the more individual nature of the battles there. But this still depresses me, being a Sox and Pats fan.
:: Not saying — 10/30/2006 @ 7:44 am
Re: 39
“This argument was only fun when there were still people out there who actually clung to the delusion that Brady is better.”
Delusion? Please. Brady has had a shoulder injury for every game he has played in the NFL. Just check the injury reports. I’d like to seeing Manning throw to Doug Gabriel game after game with his shoulder falling off.
:: Not saying — 10/30/2006 @ 7:47 am
Manning has more skills, but he is soft and his team-mates don’t really respect him as a leader. This is why the Colts as a team roll over and die whenever the pressure gets too high. Brady is a true leader of men, his teammates know he’s willing to give everything he’s got, and his teammates will move mountains for him. Basically Manning is King Darius of Persia and Brady is Alexander the Great.
:: vanya_6724 — 10/30/2006 @ 8:02 am
re #40
You know Chamberlain has a couple of rings himself, despite not playing with 6 hall of famers his entire career.
Also, Brady fumbled.
:: Truman — 10/30/2006 @ 8:41 am
Clearly, you all are forgetting the best commercial ever made. The sainted Tom Brady (*genuflect*) allows his offensive line to star in his Visa Protect commercial, while he dates an actress. Do you ever see Manning’s offensive line in his humorous advertisements? Nooooo….
This advertisement give Brady a decisive humility advantage over the Devil, who now walks this earth in the guise of an unbearably goofy Indy QB. It takes CHARACTER, not OBSERVATION, and FAITH, not STATS, to discern the Devil and all his works.
Can I get an AMEN, brothers?
:: David — 10/30/2006 @ 8:41 am
re 7
I just lurk around here. Not really into the stats. I think we’re lucky to have both Manning and Brady.
I guess three Lombardis take away the defensiveness. Sorry, couldn’t resist
:: Paulette — 10/30/2006 @ 9:01 am
re:16 He’s exactly who we thought he was. If you want to go ahead and crown… err, never mind.
:: Ben — 10/30/2006 @ 9:19 am
brady just rules when it comes to the intangibles. his intangibles are so obvious, you could reach out and touch them. did i mention the intangibles. forget swagger, great players are measured by the intangibles.
:: joel in providence — 10/30/2006 @ 9:41 am
#40:
wilt won two NBA championships (and nearly won an ncaa title at kansas)… and i believe overbrook won at least one or two city championships when he was in h.s…. yes it’s schoolboy hoops, but you’ve got to be REALLY good to win the championship in philly.
:: joel in providence — 10/30/2006 @ 9:48 am
Digging deeper into Manning -v- Brady, if we go back to elementary school and cross out all the common letters between PEYTON MANNING and TOM BRADY, you get:
PENNNING BRD
which clearly indicates why the Jets QB is on and off this season. Peyton & Tom are trying to tell Jets fans something.
I think Peyton & Tom & a Ouija Board should get together in a room and see what happens…
Welcome to Mystic NFL, just in time for Halloween!!!
:: Flava Flav — 10/30/2006 @ 9:50 am
I’m sorry but that Aaron Schultz (remember that?) guy is crazy in this case. Clearly the best thread in the history of FO. Is the football talk irrational? Sure. But the irrationality of the absurdity is so absurd and irrational that the unintentional comedy is off the unintentionaly funny scale.
This is the stuff that legend is made of my friends.
Please. Continue.
:: Adam Gretz — 10/30/2006 @ 9:54 am
This discussion is far, far sillier than the other discussion threads on this site, and it is meant to be. The rest of the website is not like this.
I’m offended by this statement.
*cough* catholicmatchgirl *cough* robopunter
I think you underestimate our capacity for silliness.
:: Independent George — 10/30/2006 @ 9:55 am
The salary cap difference is not so much in the cap numbers of the Peytom Branning nimself, but in what they pay for on the rest of the team.
The Colts pay for two of the best wide receivers in the the game, O- and D-lines, and enough defense and running game to get by. (James and Brackett? Gone. Enjoy the money elsewhere.)
The Patriots pay for linebackers (Colvin and Vrabel are getting paid quite nicely), O- and D-lines, and enough receivers and running game to get by. (Branch and Givens? Enjoy the money &c).
Just that distinctiion alone means Manning should put up better stats (better receivers make the passing game better — except maybe for J.P. Losman). Either method can win you games: witness both teams’ records since 2001.
Better defense, of course, tends to make winning championships easier. But the credit and/or blame for that can hardly be laid at the feet or Peytom Branning — unless you think that they run the front office like they run their respective offenses.
:: Starshatterer — 10/30/2006 @ 10:06 am
There needs to be a TV show where Catholic Match Girl has to choose between Brady and Manning. Only then can we find out who is really better.
:: calig23 — 10/30/2006 @ 10:13 am
I’d take Robo-punter over either Brady or Manning at the same salary.
:: andrew — 10/30/2006 @ 10:13 am
53: Where did she go, BTW?
I have to add my comment that football is a team sport, so rings don’t necessarily measure who a better PLAYER is. And the Chicago/Arizona game this season is anecdotal evidence that the best at a position doesn’t always win the game. Also, by allowing for the “Rings Argument” to be valid, we’d have to crown Trent Dilfer as one of the best QBs ever. I’m not willing to do that, just as I’m not willing to say that Tony Parker is a better point guard than John Stockton.
:: Sophandros — 10/30/2006 @ 10:24 am
55: Manning all the way. Brady’s out. I don’t think Catholic Match Girl would ever pick a guy with dreamier eyes than her own.
:: Malene, cph — 10/30/2006 @ 10:34 am
It is funny how many people call Manning soft when he hasn’t missed a game. That hit last week against Manning where he was split into two really makes a soft quarterback.
What is anyone even trying to say with the “soft quarterback” thing? Exactly what part of him is soft?
:: Nathan — 10/30/2006 @ 10:38 am
This is probably way too rational for this thread but I guess I kind of wonder how everyone can’t get together on the notion that Brady is an extremely capable and well rounded QB who will be in the Hall of Fame and that Manning is a surreally talented offensive weapon who will also be in the Hall of Fame.
The systemic differences in NE and Indy don’t to me seem to be based on anything more than wise assessment of their players - the Pats are an all-around rounded team as is their QB, whereas the Colts spend a premium on offensive talent in order to give Manning the pieces to make best use of his talents.
:: Mike — 10/30/2006 @ 10:42 am
Too many “experts” gloss over the tremendous advantage that Manning has by playing at least half of his games indoors. In Major League Baseball, offensive statistics accumulated at Coors’ Field were discounted until the baseballs were placed in cold storage. The same factor has to be affixed to Manning’s stats. Does anyone know what his numbers are in, say 40 degrees and below, in comparison with his environmentally controlled performances?
Manning could take his exact same team to NE and not be anywhere near as effective.
Brady’s ability to throw in the cold and wet and wind is special. Manning has shown no such ability (see: Playoffs).
:: Brian — 10/30/2006 @ 10:46 am
re 59: not his heart, as he spends his freetime killing puppies and o-linemen who’ve missed blocks.
:: Malene, cph — 10/30/2006 @ 10:56 am
If I had to go through life with a first name like “Peyton,” I’d wear that ugly expression all the time too.
:: Michael LaRocca` — 10/30/2006 @ 11:04 am
54,
I’ve always loved the people who are so desperate to run down Manning for their guy that they throw all the other players on their team under the bus. In 2003, McNair got a share of the MVP because people argued that he was doing it all on his own. Of course, he had one pro bowl receiver ( just like Peyton), a deep and talented receiver group (while young), the best pass protection in the league, a solid defense and an outstanding kicking game. Both of his backups (playing in games he missed for injury) had better passer ratings than McNair behind that awesome protection. But, of course, Stevie did it all by himself.
Remember when Pats fans kept telling us that Branch and Givens were supposed to be below average receivers?! They were nothing without the greatness that is Tom Brady. And their TEs weren’t very good. And that incredibly good offensive line was just ignored. And we don’t need to talk about the NE defense and kicking game. Because Brady is better than god. Last year, the poor Pats had to use a rookie first round pick and a rookie second round pick to fill in for injuries in the O-line. Every bad throw Brady made last year (and there were a lot) was the O-line’s fault. Every week we heard non-stop excuses about how poor Tom had to deal with the bad line.
When Manning’s O-line (not as good as NE’s to start with) had 3 significant injuries in 2004, he had to make do with an 5th round rookie and an undrafted rookie for the 2d half of the season. Despite leaky protection, he broke Marino’s record. And no one ever heard a word about excuses for injuries to the offensive line.
:: stan — 10/30/2006 @ 11:05 am
Aaron needs to divide the comments into sane and insane categories.
re: 12 — Brady is better at play-action faking? Other than the fevered imaginations of the Brady-besotted lovers in the NE sports media, has anyone rational ever tried to make that argument? Manning has gotten defenses to bite on play fakes in games where his backs are having trouble making it back to the LOS.
Several years ago, the Colt running game was so bad that Manning had to develop a new way to run the zone stretch in order to produce running seams. His talents in run game mechanics are so special that other NFL coaches have complained about not being able to get their QBs to replicate him in practice for their defense.
:: stan — 10/30/2006 @ 11:18 am
#61, okay, Dan Fouts (played home games in San Diego) and Dan Marino (played home games in Miami) were not great QBs. Interesting theory. And I say that a crazed Packers fan.
:: Dave — 10/30/2006 @ 11:23 am
Tom Brady is the Brett Favre of quarterbacks
:: Tim — 10/30/2006 @ 11:27 am
“Put Brady on the Colts and they’ve already won the Super Bowl instead of choking in the playoffs.”
This is taking Pats homerism to an impressive new level. Manning basically maxes out the offensive power of the QB position in the Colts system. You can argue that he’d suck in NE, or that too much of the money is spent on the Colts O, but I don’t see how you can seriously claim Brady could possibly do better. The Colts losses come from when the defense implodes, and no one player can overcome that.
“The salary cap difference is not so much in the cap numbers of the Peytom Branning nimself, but in what they pay for on the rest of the team.”
That’s part of it, but a big part of it is also Dungy’s crappy Tampa 2 where he doesn’t put anyone on the field who weighs more than 140lbs. A defense that could stop the run but was vulnerable to the pass would be far better for the Colts, because it’s the grinding run drives that really murder them.
:: johnt — 10/30/2006 @ 11:29 am
#36
“-Take a look at what happened in Manning’s playoff games.
From memory, because I really should be studying:
Vanderjagt misses a 30(?) yard field goal against Miami which would have forced OT.
The Colts defense gets lit up by the Jets, leaving Manning with no choice but to play catch up by the time he finally gets a chance to put a drive together.
The Colts receivers get mugged in New England, instigating an investigation into the officiating and subsequent ‘re-interpretation’ of the rule.
The snow game where Manning played horribly and he had no help from his receivers or his pro bowl RB.”
As a Pats fan, this debate to me is silly. I don’t care who is the better QB, the only thing I can honestly say is I’m happy with Brady. I used to hate when Yankee fans were not satisfied just to have the best team, they also had to have the best shortstop, even when the plain numbers showed Nomar and A-rod were better players. So, as a Pats fan, I don’t feel the need to do this. I’m happy with Brady, and I wouldn’t want anyone else. Non-Pats fans should understand that.
However, I cannot let this entire thing go without commenting on the above. Manning is an amazing QB, and unlike other Pats fans out there, I will admit that I think he’ll retire with at least 1 ring, and possibly more than one, once all is said and done.
But, why the silly need to explain away his post-season failures? It would be better if Peyton/Colt fans just admitted that in the small sample size that is the NFL playoffs, Manning has been pretty damn awful when his opponent has not been the Denver Broncos.
:: Hart Lee Dykes — 10/30/2006 @ 11:32 am
“The Colts losses come from when the defense implodes, and no one player can overcome that.”
Not true at all.
The Colt defense has played well in both playoff losses to New England. The Colt offense has not. Not all Manning’s fault, but it isn’t like Manning is throwing up perfect passer ratings in these playoff games and his defense is giving up 40 points a game.
I agree the statement you are responding to is blatant and annoying Pats homrerism. But, pretending that Manning has been the victim of a poor defense in the playofffs is simply not accurate.
:: Hart Lee Dykes — 10/30/2006 @ 11:34 am
70: Well, I barely remember the first one, to tell you the truth. But the most recent one it was definitely the Colts defense fault. The Patriots just kept marching down the field 4 yards at a time with brutally long drives, then the totally fresh Pats defense would come on, drop 7 into coverage and pressure Manning with 4 and get a fast stop. But it was the pressure caused by the knowledge that if they didn’t convert every series they’d be off the field for 8-9 minutes of clock time that really broke the Colts offense that game.
:: johnt — 10/30/2006 @ 11:45 am
It would be better if Peyton/Colt fans just admitted that in the small sample size that is the NFL playoffs, Manning has been pretty damn awful when his opponent has not been the Denver Broncos.
This is FO. We should know variance happens. Brady’s also had a better team around him those SB years (except 2001, which was just fluky).
:: randomn00b — 10/30/2006 @ 12:18 pm
At the end of the day (and career), it’s who has more Superbowl rings. As it stands right now, if both Brady and Peyton retired, Brady wins the “who’s better” debate.
Brady was never crowned to be the next best thing in the world of football QB’s. Nothing was expected of him and he has delivered more than Peyton. Peyton might be the better throwing QB and might have better over all talent than Brady, but he has yet to deliver when it really counts. Hopefully Peyton will get to the promised land and win that ring. He has the ability to do so. But he has to deliver in the big games which he has yet to do.
:: GO BLUE — 10/30/2006 @ 12:21 pm
I definitely fall firmly in the Manning camp in the irrational Brady-Manning debate (Manning is the best QB I’ve ever seen; what more can I say?), but I think that the comparison of Brady to Jeter is an insult to Brady. There are tons of holes in Jeter’s game as a baseball player; that is, there are a lot of important aspects of baseball in which Jeter is bad. In contrast, I really don’t see any holes in Brady’s game as a QB. I suppose you could argue that he could stand to be more mobile, but other than that he is very good at basically every aspect of his position.
:: CA — 10/30/2006 @ 12:28 pm
Oh cool — the vintage “Manning has magic powers beyond the ken of mortal men” stan has returned. Feels like old times.
:: PatsFan — 10/30/2006 @ 12:31 pm
To be fair, Peyton looked pretty damn amazing after obliterating the 2003 Chiefs.
What I like about Brady: his total team committment. I’ve never heard of Brady saying that a loss was someone else’s fault or whining about the calls or the coach or any of that.
What I don’t like: his calls for more respect. Wow, you suck.
In contrast, I really don’t see any holes in Brady’s game as a QB. To be vaguely rational, Brady is great at reading zone coverages, throwing accurate balls normally, and making the right decisions when not under pressure. Where he fails is making decisions under pressure; he has made some absolutely boneheaded plays that make Brooks look like a genius. Denver knows how to beat New England and Brady because they put absurd pressure on him. The Colts, from what I’ve seen, have only done so once - last year’s game, when the running game was ineffective.
:: Kal — 10/30/2006 @ 12:34 pm
This is a question, and not an attempt at being snide.
How often does Brady throw deep? I never see it, I’d question his arm strength not that he needs it.
How often does he bomb it? Manning pulls it off pretty regularly with good touch.
:: Nathan — 10/30/2006 @ 12:37 pm
At the end of the day (and career), it’s who has more Superbowl rings. As it stands right now, if both Brady and Peyton retired, Brady wins the “who’s better� debate.
It is? Hmm. Poor Manning, he may never be as good a QB as Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson.
:: johnt — 10/30/2006 @ 12:38 pm
Re: #77
Apparently you didn’t watch any Pats games last year. Brady threw, and connected on, plenty of long balls.
This year, different story, ’tis true.
:: PatsFan — 10/30/2006 @ 12:39 pm
I watched some pats games, but mostly Colts games. Maybe 4-5 Pats games. He was surgically an absolutely amazing QB, great at the 15 yard pass across the middle, but I just don’t remember anything long.
Small sample size and all
:: Nathan — 10/30/2006 @ 12:41 pm
Heh. I remember this from a couple years ago and last year. Someone made a comment before the Pats/Jax game that Brady couldn’t throw deep, and one of his first passes was this perfect bomb. He can throw deep fairly well. He doesn’t have the long accuracy that McNabb or Palmer or Manning show, but he does well. It’s certainly not a weakness, and his armstrength is fine for the important throws like the 10-yard out.
:: Kal — 10/30/2006 @ 12:54 pm
If Jesus coached a football team, Peyton and Tommy B. would be backing up Brett Favre. Brett Favre is the greatest QB of all time, not to mention a better clutch hitter than A-Rod and could own Michael Jordan and Larry Bird in one-on-one-on-one with his hands tied behind his back.
All bow down to Brett Favre, the omnipotent and benevolent tosser of touchdowns!
:: john madden — 10/30/2006 @ 1:04 pm
“It would be better if Peyton/Colt fans just admitted that in the small sample size that is the NFL playoffs, Manning has been pretty damn awful when his opponent has not been the Denver Broncos.”
You forgot Kansas City. And Poland.
:: Steve — 10/30/2006 @ 1:06 pm
75,
Patsfan, you are absolutely right about it feeling like old times. It’s so comforting to know that you are so reliable. I keep writing what the best football minds in the game say about Manning and you keep writing snarky little personal attacks.
I’ll keep referring to what coaches like Jeff Fisher, Mike Shanahan, and Dick Vermeil say about Manning doing things they have never seen before. You might try new ways to be nasty.
You can rely on those Boston sportswriters.
:: stan — 10/30/2006 @ 1:16 pm
In the #5 commenet at the top, he states the Pats would be better with Manning and the Colts worse with Brady. I’d like to see Peyton do with the Pats what Tom has. Peyton has 2 very good receivers to throw to, including one hall of famer. Brady has no one. You give Tom Brady Harrison and Wayne and he would be unstoppable. You give Manning Reche Caldwell and Doug Gabriel and see what he can do.
And when Peyton leads any team to more than 2 wins in the play-offs then he can be compared to Tom Brady instead of Dan “No Super Bowl Wins” Marino.
:: Justin Wood — 10/30/2006 @ 1:17 pm
Re: #82
You forgot to mention Favre’s swagger and gunslinging :-)
:: PatsFan — 10/30/2006 @ 1:20 pm
#85: If you give Manning Vrabel, Harrison, Colvin, and Bruschi, I bet he does pretty well. It’s not just about the offense. And it’s not just that the Pats won games because they had Brady.
That, btw, is one of the things I hate about this argument in general - the argument that Brady had no one and did so well. He had consistently one of the best defenses in the league. This is a huge bonus for any QB. Brady doesn’t have the offensive weapons, but he also doesn’t have the offensive numbers that go with those. What he does have is a defense that has been stellar throughout the 2000s with one exception.
:: Kal — 10/30/2006 @ 1:23 pm
On why Pats fans seem to need to loathe Peyton so much - I think Simmons bears responsibility for a lot of it. He went through a really juvenile stretch the last couple of years when he just couldn’t stop poking fun, and NE fans lapped it up, much like the popular kids piling on the geek in High School (popular in this context = head-head success, and success in Super Bowls). Some of his ongoing themes (e.g. Manning is a selfish, me-first player only concerned with stats, his teammates don’t like him) were just patently ridiculous to those of us who actually live in Indy and follow the Colts - but what are you gonna do?
I actually think that there might be a little psychological transference going on here. For a while there, it was pretty brutal to root for the Pats and Red Sox, especially the Sox (being the Yankees historical bee-otch and all). When both teams reversed their fortunes (simultaneously and spectacularly), the NE fans turned around and emulated the worst behavior of their former Yankee fan tormentors, by displaying, irrational, dissmissive arrogance.
:: DaveO — 10/30/2006 @ 1:25 pm
87,
Don’t forget the offensive line. The NFL is about pass pro, first and foremost.
:: stan — 10/30/2006 @ 1:25 pm
Trying to seperate qb performance from the performance of the offensive players surrounding the qb is really, really hard. Trying to sperate the qb performance from the performance of the qb’s defense and special teams is also extremely hard. This is what lends the special air of irrationality to the Manning/Brady debate, but I’d have to say the the Brady fans win the irrationality award, in that they attempt to discount the rest of the Pats’ roster when they put forth the Super Bowl victories as proof of Brady’s superiority. Elway did not become a better quarterback in 1997, compared to years previous, Dan Marino was not a better qb in 1984 than he was in later years, and if the Buffalo Bills had been in the NFC from from 1990 through 1993, Jim Kelly would not have been any worse as a quarterback.
#54 is correct in that the far more interesting examination pertains to overall roster construction, and cap space allotment, in regards to the Pats and Colts.
:: Will Allen — 10/30/2006 @ 1:29 pm
#89 - the Pats haven’t had the best line or even the best pass-protecting line for a while. Point of fact, Manning has had better lines at least statistically. If he’s had problems with the line it hasn’t shown up all that often. It did spectacularly against SD and Pitt, but I’m not sure how much of that was manning’s inability to call the protection correctly and how much was bad line play.
But they still have been good most of the time. Reasonable at runblocking, reasonable at passblocking. Brady has had some horrible line play along the way, and it hasn’t been a consistent strength of the Pats for a while. Certainly not the way the defense has.
:: Kal — 10/30/2006 @ 1:31 pm
Stat of the day:
Â
Manning’s career QB ratings:Â
88.8 outdoorsÂ
98.8 indoorsÂ
78.9 cold temperatures (
Â
Brady’s career QB ratings:Â
87 outdoorsÂ
103.9 indoorsÂ
89.4
Â
A lot of the difference in their styles - Mannings longer passes versus Brady’s shorter ones - is because they play in difference conditions. This also explains Brady’s success in the playoffs. Winnig outdoors in the cold becomes very import in making it to the Super Bowl.
:: Pat Fitzsimmons — 10/30/2006 @ 1:38 pm
#91 - Remember that 2001 O-line? Only one of those players still remains on the team. If someone wants to argue that Brady has had the benefit of good o-lines, then they are going to have to be specific and mention which year because there has been a tremendous amount of turnover and injuries there.
:: bsr — 10/30/2006 @ 1:39 pm
#92 - My understanding is that Manning has also traditional thrown lots of short passes. In fact, if I recall correctly, Manning throws a greater percentage of his passes short then Brady does.
:: bsr — 10/30/2006 @ 1:41 pm
If Manning gets time to throw, he is the best QB. What Quarterbacks were good with a rush similar to the Steelers last year?
Anyone?.. I remember every “great” quarterback in my lifetime getting pounded if the O-line can’t stop the rush.
:: Nathan — 10/30/2006 @ 1:48 pm
Long time reader, first time poster.
Terry Bradshaw won 4 SuperBowls (’74,’75,’79,’80) and was the SuperBowl MVP in ‘74 and ‘75.
Dan Marino has almost every meaningful career and season passing record in NFL history, and Peyton has broken at least one, and is on track to break others.
Now, I’m (unfortunately) a huge fan of the Dolphins, but is there anyone who believes that Terry Bradshaw was a better QB than Dan Marino? I know I don’t. I don’t even hear Bradshaw mentioned in discussions about the best QB of all time very often, but Marino is mentioned every time.
Therefore, how can anyone think that Tom Brady is a better QB than Peyton Manning just because he has won SuperBowls? Championship rings don’t measure your success as a player, they measure your success as a team on one specific day in a year (4 days if you want to count the entire playoffs). In my opinion, career stats are a better measure of the player. I usually have to use that argument when people say Elway was better than Marino. He wasn’t. There, I said it. Long live #13!
:: Blair — 10/30/2006 @ 1:52 pm
In these situations, I like to ask myself WWBFD? What would Brett Favre Do?
If Brett had to decide who was the better QB, he would take Peyton and Tommy B. out back and let ‘em fight it out, last man standing would be the best QB in the NFL. And then Brett would beat the crap out of both of them.
:: john madden — 10/30/2006 @ 1:55 pm
Not sure where you get those numbers, #92. In Brady’s case, they seem to be way too high, and in Manning’s case they seem too low. Not that comparing career numbers is all that useful given the two years that Manning has on Brady - but at least in terms of rating in the last few years Manning obliterates Brady.
Which is why we actually use DVOA instead of passer rating to determine who is better.
:: Kal — 10/30/2006 @ 1:55 pm
Re: Patsfan (re: stan and comment #12)
You may disagree with stan, but I don’t see how you could agree with comment #12. The Colts offense is more built around post-snap misdirection than any offense in the league. See the oldie-but-goodie 2004 FO article linked in my name for a discussion of this. Lots of great comments in that one, too. Peyton sells the playfake very well.
#69’s comments are nice.
:: doktarr — 10/30/2006 @ 2:01 pm
#98 - The numbers come from Yahoo! Sports. I’d like to look at DVOA, but there’s no indoor/outdoor splits.
:: Pat Fitzsimmons — 10/30/2006 @ 2:02 pm
#92 - Based on your selected stats, the argument between Brady and Manning becomes more complicated. If Brady had a slightly better rating outdoors than indoors than Manning’s overall QB rating is still higher than Brady. This is known as Simpson’s paradox. Is anyone aware of studies that show that quarterbacks perform better indoors than outdoors?
:: EricG — 10/30/2006 @ 2:04 pm
Great point, #96. In fact, I’ve long considered it very likely that if Peyton’s daddy had his draft year reversed with Bradshaw, allowing Archie to play with Noll and Co., while Bradshaw got bludgeoned in New Orleans, Archie would be in the HOF, holding the record for qb SB victories ahead of Montana, and Bradshaw would be little remembered. It is amazing to me how the Brady fans discount the Belichik defense when promoting Brady’s superiority on the basis of Super Bowl victories.
:: Will Allen — 10/30/2006 @ 2:06 pm
#100: Ah, gotcha. How many games has Brady played indoors?
8.
Statistically, that’s pretty much irrelevant. So yeah, Brady’s been 5 points better in the 8 games he played indoors than Manning has in the 76 he’s played. There’s a shocker.
:: Kal — 10/30/2006 @ 2:08 pm
TUCK RULE!!!
:: throughthelookingglass — 10/30/2006 @ 2:08 pm
Since the two are quarterbacks, doesn’t it make sense to look at their passing stats as the main, and possibly only, thing to measure them. It is illogical to look at wins considering they both only play one position on the field and football is too much of a team game to think one player wins and losses a game.
To say Brady is better simply because he has rings is ridiculous. He has rings because the other players on his team performed at a higher level than everyone else in the league for 3 years. He clearly has had much better defenses which are vitally important to winning Super Bowls. In fact, every Super Bowl winnner has had a defense ranked in the top 10 in points allowed. I don’t think QBs have too much control over how well their team’s defense performs.
So onto their passing stats. Brady has played in 86 games and gone 1683 for 2737 61.5% 19261yards 7.0YPA 133TD 69INT. Pretty good numbers. Manning has played in 135 games and gone 2932 for 4578 64.0% 35154yards 7.7YPA 259TD 132INT. Those are excellent numbers. He is the second fastest ever to 35000 yards. And he is already 10th all time in passing TDs. Brady is at a bit of a disadvantage because he has played in fewer games. But that is just one reason why Manning is better. He has been great over a longer period of time.
Ans as for their passing numbers in the playoffs: Manning is 193 for 322 2461yards 15TD 8INT. Half of those INTs came in one game againgst the Pats. Brady is 225 for 367 2493yards 15TD 5INT. They have pretty similar playoff numbers.
We can talk all day about why Brady has rings and why Manning doesn’t. That would take all day because that has a lot to do with how the rest of their teams played and not as much to do with how well they threw the football. You can’t argue that Manning has thrown the ball better, for a longer time than Brady has. That is not to say Brady isn’t good. It is just saying that Manning has been a little better. And that is not a bad thing for Brady. Manning may turn out to be the greatest ever if he continues to throw the ball like he is.
:: David Plunk — 10/30/2006 @ 2:08 pm
88:
That’s probably the best assessment of this situation that I’ve seen.
Thank you.
:: Sophandros — 10/30/2006 @ 2:12 pm
RE: 98:
I believe those stats are accurate. If you look at every concievable split (home/road, indoor/outdoor, day/night, raining, windy, et cetera et cetera), Manning is higher in all of them except:
1) Cold
2) Windy
3) Indoors
(3) is obviously the wierd one. Basically, that comes down to small sample size, as Brady has only played 8 games indoors. Cold, windy conditions obviously hurt the Manning-led Colts.
:: doktarr — 10/30/2006 @ 2:16 pm
#5 just made my day. It takes a big ego to compliment yourself on a 16 month-old post. Bravo.
:: ToxikFetus — 10/30/2006 @ 2:16 pm
OK, here’s my rational/irrational take:
1). Both are fantastic. I’m a die-hard Pats fan, but if you took away Brady and gave the Pats Peyton, I wouldn’t be upset (provided there was a full training camp to get all the offensive pieces to fit together). The only reason why I’d take one over the other if I was building a team from scratch is that Brady is a little younger.
2). To say that Brady runs a play fake better is silly. The Colts live on playaction.
3). Talent level around them: Hard to compare O-lines. Both O-lines are pretty good (except last year, when injuries bit the Pats). Subjectively, I think the Pats O-line is better at handing late pressure (delay blitzes) but struggles agains the all-out blitz at the snap, but the Colts’ is better handling quick, all out pressure but struggles more against clever, delayed, unexpected stuff.
WR’s I’m not going to say the Pats’ WR’s are horrible, but anyone that thinks Harrison, Stokley, and Wayne are worse than ANY 1-2-3 WR combo the Pats have had in the last 5 years (including Branch-Givens-Brown at their best) needs their heads examined. TE’s are probably a wash, but I personally think Graham’s dropsies and Fauria’s tendency to catch and instantly fall down move the Pats’ TE’s over the last five years slightly below the Colts’.
The Pats have had a much better D ove rthe last five years (except for last year).
Running game: the edge has to go to the Colts. The pats had 1 good year with Dillon in 04 and half of this year so far. That’s 1 1/4 years of excellent running game weighted down by three and a half years of injured Corey, Antoine Smith, Heath Evans, and Patrick Pass. The Colts have had five years of not-spectacular, but well above average running.
So at the end of the day, I would say Peyton has had more talent around him.
4). Here’s how I break down their real strengths. Neither has any critical weaknesses, each just does certain things better.
Brady is better at quick reads, analyzing and adjusting to complex defensive schemes, and moving around to buy time in the pocket. Peyton throws a better long ball (Brady throws a pretty good one, but Manning’s is near perfect) and is better at not getting hit as much (Brady takes an awful beating at times). I think Peyton throws better out patterns, but Brady is better deep over the middle.
5). The reason why Pats fans hate Peyton so much is that the National media has been in LOVE with him for years. Everyone extols his greatness, yet he has beaten the Pats exactly twice in his career. Historically, most of the time that New England fans have seen Peyton play, they see him play badly. So naturally they get annoyed when everyone says how wonderful he is. I’m not saying he’s not a great QB–just that what New Englanders see doesn’t match up with what everyone else sees because he generally hasn’t played his best against New England.
6). One of the stupidest things I saw on these boards was a comment by a Denver fan shortly after the Broncos beat the Pats. He said something to the effect of “Brady is overrated. All you have to do is pressure him and get in his face before he has a chance to throw the ball, and he will make mistakes”. Um, hello? Should I call you Phil Simms? That’s the most obvious statement of the year. All you have to do is pressure ANY QB and get in their face before they can throw the ball, and they’ll make mistakes. For some reason, Denver’s been better at penetrating the Pats O-line than most teams, but Brady, like Manning, is very dangerous to try to pressure. Most of the time he’ll pick you apart.
:: MJK — 10/30/2006 @ 2:27 pm
What he does have is a defense that has been stellar throughout the 2000s with one exception.
Pats defense DVOA(rank):
2001: -6.3 (13)
2002: +0.3 (15)
2003: -22.0 ( 2)
2004: -11.3 ( 6)
2005: +10.5 (27)
2006: +1.3 (22)
I count two really good years, two average years, and one and a half bad years. That’s not “stellar throughout the 2000’s”.
:: MJK — 10/30/2006 @ 2:39 pm
MJK: Brilliant stuff.
:: Nathan — 10/30/2006 @ 2:40 pm
#110 - compare that defense with Indy’s over the same period of time and see what you get. While 2001 was something of a lucky break in a lot of ways, 2003/2004 was a great defense. 2005 had the Pats playing at a high level from week 11 on.
They’ve had some bad luck with injuries but in a four-year stretch, the worst their defense was was mediocre - and that’s when they didn’t make the playoffs. If you like, they’ve certainly had a stellar defense relative to the Colts.
:: Kal — 10/30/2006 @ 2:45 pm
Nice post, MJK. But I think you need to post it in a thread for rational discussions, not here :-).
:: PatsFan — 10/30/2006 @ 2:50 pm
Man, this is fun reading. I feel like some sort of psycho puppet-master–every time I read a comment and want to comment, a few lines down my back is covered.
Paulette, thanks for coming back to crack me over the head with the trophies.
Finally, I agree with absoutely EVERYTHING everyone has said here.
A few small housekeeping items: Indy’s D in playoff games: After the 1999 season, they lost to SB runnerups Tenn by 4 points–decisive score, a 64 yard TD run by Eddie George in the 4th qtr. Clearly Manning’s fault. The next year, they made it to OT but lost by 6 to Miami. Lost by six in OT? Surely they did not allow a TD? Yes. And 209 rushing yards to… Antowan Smith? Lamar Smith? Some HoF-worthy guy. Manning’s fault again.
So you see, the legend was pre-packaged before he got waxed by 41-0 NYJ (a game in which Edge gained 13 yards on 9 carries). Two 100+ yard rushers for NYJ in that one. Let’s see TB win a playoff game with defensive and run support like that.
Regarding the “teammates under the bus” issue, yes, Vanderjagt does not drink and was quite ticked at that remark. I’d assume Manning knew that quirk of his kicker, so it’s a little gratuitous. But let’s not blame the victim–Vandy previously came out on TV and called Manning and Dungy essentially fireless and gutless. True or not, he took to the airwaves first (ableit in Canada). Manning was swatting back for himself and his coach, and tried to be dismissive rather than combative. Not attacking. Sadly, it was too funny for anyone to forget. Just to be clean, “idiot kicker” was justified. “Liquored up” was not.
And the “we had some protection problems” was… as true as the day is long. Any arguements about it’s truth? I thought not. In ensuing days, Manning said (possibly to cover his ass, maybe to fill out the explanation) “Hey, I call the protection, so part of that’s on me.” and his OL had only agreement with him in interviews.
In fact, when you go back to earlier seasons, his receivers typically tapped balls that got intercepted and Manning used an odd phrase that I remember clearly in his interviews: “I’ll write the check on that one, it was mine.” i.e. my fault, not old stone hands over there. Now the ball placement may not have been pefect, but it often clanged off Colt receiver hands. PM might have dug up one of my dad’s old chestnuts: “Sorry, Hit you in a bad spot. The hands.”
:: Bobman — 10/30/2006 @ 2:51 pm
I blame Mike VanderDONK! for all of Peyton’s lack of success.
:: john madden — 10/30/2006 @ 2:57 pm
99: A lot of Indy’s success in selling the play-fake has to do with the fact that the blocking/movement from the line looks exactly the same in a run or pass play. Indy’s line doesn’t get nearly enough credit for being able to pull this off. Having Peyton sell the fake is extremely helpful, but the defensive line/linebackers react to what they see from the line first.
:: B — 10/30/2006 @ 2:57 pm
MJK, great stuff. (second Colts fan to applaud your post) I like your point #5 in Post #109 especially and had never thought about that. I fully understand hating the national media tongue-bath anybody gets (ick, stop it already you dolts! You’re making me hate my own team sometime!) but combine that with Pats fans generally only seeing PM at his worst… now it makes sense.
What you should point out with your D-DVOA is where Indy ranks those years. Also, the two years NE WAS stellar, they won it all. Their next best D-DVOA year (the flukey one) they won also.
Looking at nothing else, I’d say the D won the SBs (which is also not true–in fact, the D almost lost the Panthers game!).
But as was stated above, way too rational. Can’t you foam at the mouth or something…? Come on, a little froth… get a latte or something to make it look convincing.
:: Bobman — 10/30/2006 @ 3:01 pm
The bigger question …. ROBO-MANNING or ROBO-BRADY ….
:: Diane — 10/30/2006 @ 3:03 pm
It boils down to this - the Colts are evil and cursed, because, goddamnit, they are supposed to be the BALTIMORE Colts. Anyone associated with the move to Indianapolis, even tangentially such as playing for them now, is tainted and evil and deserves utter scorn. Therefore right thinking people hate Peyton Manning, just as they should hate anyone who plays for the Colts and anyone who roots for the disgusting travesty that is the “Indianapolis” (sic) Colts.
:: Harry — 10/30/2006 @ 3:05 pm
Peyton Manning’s Passer Rating inside domes of home teams with animal mascots during Monday night games on the week of a lunar eclipse: 127.2
Tom Brady’s Passer Rating in even numbered years throwing passes of between 5 and 8 yards to left-handed receivers with uniform numbers below 84: 119.6
Brett Favre’s Passer Rating wearing a green jersey out of the shotgun throwing to a tight-end whose Zodiac symbol is Sagittarius in the second half against AFC West teams: 136.1
I rest my case…
:: john madden — 10/30/2006 @ 3:08 pm
MJK, Bobman, others, great stuff. This discussion is much less irrational than in years past, which is not a bad thing, I think.
I’m not sure I agree that Brady has better quick reads, as quick reads by Peyton are fundamental to the Colts offense. The Pats managed to disguise their blitz looks really well in ‘03-’04, but that doesn’t mean that Peyton isn’t excellent at quick reads on the whole.
On the other side of the coin, as Aaron pointed out a couple weeks ago, though, Brady is probably the very best at screen passes. When the Colts are throwing a lot of screens, it’s usually a sign that they are struggling, while the Pats can really kill teams on screen plays. As with all of these things, it’s tough to divorce Manning and Brady’s individual talents from the offenses around them.
Also, on the question of receivers - this is surely the one area where Manning has unquestionably had more talent around him. That said, one thing that neither Brady nor Manning has ever had is an Andre Johnson/Plexico/randy Moss/TO type; a guy who can flat-out win jump balls. I wonder whether it would be a waste to give Manning a receiver like this, since he’s so accurate anyway (better off giving him great route runners like Harrison or Holt), or whether it would lead to massive fireworks as he could force teams to double-team the big receiver on every play.
:: doktarr — 10/30/2006 @ 3:08 pm
Knowing in advance the incredible foolishness of this thread, I would like to point out something about the comparison. Peyton Manning plays for a team that is offensively stacked. He tosses to Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley, and Dallas Clark, and is protected by a hotshot offensive line that is very cohesive and has been together for a long time. Tom Brady consistently throws to whodats, including such stars as David Patten, Bethel Johnson, David Givens, Reche Caldwell, Christian Fauria, Jermaine Wiggins, Troy Brown, Donald Hayes… you name it, waver wire guys for many teams. Givens got a big contract on the basis of how good he looked receiving from Brady, and he promptly disappeared in Tennessee. Meanwhile, the best receivers Brady gets, guys like Deion Branch, are clearly not top notch caliber on other teams. Deion just doesn’t compare to Wayne and Harrison. Now, we’ve all seen both Brady and Manning struggle. In 2001 Manning’s team was highly ineffectual and Peyton through bushels of picks at different times. When Manning wasn’t doing well, he sulked, gave his coach a hard time, and pointed fingers. Even just last year he pointed to his offensive line and blamed them for a loss. Brady, on the other hand, has routinely been patient through problems on the team… seems to have less of a chip on his shoulder. Maybe that’s because he’s not a first-over-all guy, but I think that Brady would be a much better team player on a team that really sucked. I think that Brady’s poise would help any franchise, while Peyton would look more like that jerky quarterback in The Replacements, who makes fun of his teammates when they suck.
:: avatar — 10/30/2006 @ 3:13 pm
B #116,
Agree totally. It’s about the entire offense selling the fake. The article I linked to in post #99 goes into detail on this.
You know, what would be really interesting would be to try to get some hard statistics on pass protection. Basically, on every sack or pass attempt, note:
1) Shotgun vs. drop-back vs. rollout
2) Whether or not there was a play fake
3) How many players rushed the QB
4) How many players stayed in to protect the QB
5) Whether the pass attempt was short, medium, or deep
6) Whether the QB was hit
…and find correlations between all of those, and how long the QB actually held onto the ball. Until we have stats like this, it’s awfully hard to judge the pass protection of the offensive line, because so much is dependent on the QB’s timing and what the defense does.
:: doktarr — 10/30/2006 @ 3:15 pm
123: The game charting project covers all of those. It also includes whether the QB was hurried and the location of the receiver for complete and incomplete passes that weren’t tipped at the LOS.
:: B — 10/30/2006 @ 3:18 pm
Doktarr, Holy Moses! That’s a lot to ask. Maybe for an EPC, or a short term charting project, but for every etam and every game? Wow, I wish that it was possible.
Oh, and BTW, I just read on-line that Brady was arrested for kicking kittens down the stairs. Bastard. Manning selflessly rushed to the veterinary hospital to save them. (after which, he’ll use them as wigs in another commercial).
:: Bobman — 10/30/2006 @ 3:22 pm
I’ll take the pepsi machine any day over Manning or Brady, actually I’ll take the King second, then it’s a crap shoot.
:: King_Biff — 10/30/2006 @ 3:27 pm
#125: Peyton Manning can change the weather with his mind and wrote the screenplay to Glitter.
:: Kal — 10/30/2006 @ 3:29 pm
To all of you who are saying that Manning has had better receivers than Brady: Yes, that generally is true, but I think that Manning fails to get credit for making them look better than they truly are. I’m sure that some people are going to pounce all over the following statement, but I view Marvin Harrison as a good WR whom Manning has turned into a Hall of Famer. Similarly, Reggie Wayne is a good receiver whom Manning has turned into a star. It’s not so much that Manning has great receivers as that Manning is so good that he makes his good receivers look great.
:: CA — 10/30/2006 @ 3:40 pm
109,
MJK thinks Brady is better at quick reads. Every coach in the NFL disagrees. Gosh, who you gonna believe?
116,
Why does the line do a good job of making the pass and run look alike? Because they are not asked to get any push at all. No other running attack in the NFL could work with run blocking the way the Colts do it on their zone stretch. The reason is that Manning’s full sprint to the edge to handoff causes the problem. Secondary cannot support due to play action pass threat. Defensive front has to sprint to the outside with blockers leaning on them. Seams open up when a defender slips, trips, actually gets blocked well (very rare), or overruns. Without Manning’s sprint to handoff, there is no running game from the outside zone.
:: stan — 10/30/2006 @ 3:40 pm
I am surprised anyone hasn’t mentioned this yet.
If you were starting an NFL team and could your head coach, who would it be? I am guessing MANY MANY people would answer Billy Boy, I am guessing almost no one would answer Dungy.
Brady better D (improved field position, less pressure), better special teams (everyone here should know that this can be worth 5 pts a game itself) Better coaching.
Meanwhile he has worse stats in every way possible. He is a very good QB, but I personally don’t even think its close. Manning has a legitimate shot at being decalred best ALL-TIME, Brady doesn’t even have a legitimate shot of being declared best while he was playing.
ALso two more arguments Pats fans used that have dissvoled his year:
Brady had no one to throw to > Branch looks pretty damn good out in SEA so far.
Brady never had a great back like Edge to helping him > uh huh you were saying?
IDK this doesn’t even seem like a debate to me. Even assuming I have no idea what I am talking about, I have a lot of repect and faith in Jowarski’s judgement, and he also has indicated he doesn’t think its close.
:: Becephalus — 10/30/2006 @ 3:41 pm
RE: 124, yeah, the game charting project does track 1-6, plus those other stats you mention which are great. What it doesn’t do (correct me if I’m wrong here!) is actually tract the exact amount of time between the snap and when the QB throws the ball (or is sacked). Which would be pretty useful if we wanted to measure the relative contribution of the O-line to the success of a given passing play.
I guess the point is that it is awfully hard to separate an individ