"My preference is to not see my quarterback throwing punches with his throwing hand."

Damn straight. They gotta get Vince some martial arts lessons, so next time he can just kick that snot-nose special teamer into the afterlife.

Vince Young came so close to keeping the Madden curse going. He's still got a while to get hurt, though.

1:

I concur.

Nobody has ever accused VY of being the brightest QB, now have they?

apropos of nothing... my anti-spam word on that last post was "doofus"...

"Man Stays In Bed All Day, Escapes Injury"

I normally prefer to write with a bit of humor, but I'll be serious on this one. This is a topic that I've found fascinating for a long time.

I've always believed that the mentality that can make a great athlete become a great football player is precisely the reason that there are usually a share of significant off-field problems with football players. They're generally aggressive and have a very strong "fight" reflex with almost no "flight" reflex.

I'm not being critical about it at all, but it amazes me how far their aggression needle is pushed for the sake of the game, and yet how much control it takes them to keep it reined in when they're off the field (or even after the whistle blows).

As I said, I'm really, REALLY trying hard to keep the humor out of this. However, the one analogy that comes to mind is the breeding of fighting pitbulls. (I'm being serious; please don't think I'm taking shots at Vick here.) They're bred for aggression and a lack of quit. Then we occasionally hear about how somebody thought that a particularly aggressive pitbull would make a good house pet and some neighbor ends up in the hospital. While we're not exactly "breeding" players (perhaps "selecting" is a better term), most players are favored for their mental tendencies. Yet we (rightly) expect them to be model citizens off the field.

It's a limited analogy, but it works for me. I'd be curious to know just how much time and money are spent in the NFL on teaching players how to properly handle their aggression on and off the field.

Once more: I'm being serious, and I'd really like to know other opinions out there. I figured that this thread is a much safer one to open the dialogue than one with felony implications, and I really hope that I'm not coming across as brutish about the whole thing.

@7

You're spot on, I think. I suspect there are analogous tensions among front-line police and military personnel, all of whom are expected to cultivate and control violent behaviors.

Whatever you measure and reward, that's what you'll get.

It’s a limited analogy, but it works for me. I’d be curious to know just how much time and money are spent in the NFL on teaching players how to properly handle their aggression on and off the field.

Quite a bit, I imagine. And Pacman Jones aside, it seems to work fairly well most of the time. I believe Kibbles looked at the conviction rate amongst NFL players and found that it compares favorably to that of the general population, so I don't think there's really that much of a problem with violent NFL players.

I do agree that it is odd to have a large group of people who have to "switch off" their ample amounts of aggression very quickly, but it's certainly not unique to football players. Soldiers, for instance, face a similar difficulty, given the aggressive nature of their job. It seems to me that both groups are full of highly disciplined individuals, who learn when it is and isn't appropriate to be aggressive. And, of course, there are a few who never learn, and get in varying amounts of trouble because of it.

Question 3 on the Wonderlic:

You are the starting QB for a piss poor team and are the only shot they have at winning 6 games. In training camp some BS goes down, do you:

A) Let someone else deal with it.

B)Punch him with your throwing hand right in the helmet, prove what a man you are.

C) Get Lendale White to eat him.

I bet this is one of the many that Vince got wrong.

I don't understand what the eff you guys are talking about. What does pitbull breeding have to do with VY defending his WRs from receiving dirty hits from their team-mates? Furthermore, I don't think his whaterver-combine test score is really appropriate. I thought the real story would be "VY sticks up for WR... gets into fray with defensive player".

This clip was shown on SportsCenter and to me it was clear the safety made a dirty hit on the WR, the WR was crumpled on the ground holding his neck, and I thought VYs reaction was rational. Sure, I guess you'd all rather see him go Zidane... but I don't know why this story is being emphasized as, "Vince Young is dumb because he throws punches with his throwing hand...".

#8 & 9:

Thanks for the soldier/police examples. They're safer than the dog analogy I used.

The perception of NFL player behavior troubles is likely inflated due to the media coverage. I'd like to take a peek at the study Kibbles did. If the overall rate of conviction is favorably comparable to the general public, there is a possibility that it is even more favorable, if you could block it for the player's expected risks without football. For example, are those football players who grew up in high-risk areas a lower risk for legal issues than the people they left behind?

Total Cliff Clavin trivia here, but that's where the word 'gentleman' comes from. It referred to a warrior to confined his violent nature to combat, and was civil within society.

#11:

What does pitbull breeding have to do with VY defending his WRs from receiving dirty hits from their team-mates?

Nothing.

Football requires people with aggressive natures. It's a physically violent sport, and most of us (me included) couldn't risk our physical selves on a regular basis to execute a play. That's all I was really trying to comment on; I use analogies because I understand things through analogies.

None of my posting so far was meant in criticism. I don't fault VY for sticking up for a teammate. To me, the manner in which he did it was the intrigue; I might have yelled at Nickey, but I wouldn't have tried to punch through his helmet (I'm more flight than fight).

I'm surprised at the emphasis on "with his throwing hand" as opposed to "the other guy was wearing a football helmet."

Re #13
Yes, thankfully we have Merriam-Webster, where you learn that "gentleman" comes from a "man of noble or gentle birth." The word "gentle" dates to Middle English, and came from Anglo-French. The Anglo-French term "gentil" derived from the Latin "gens," describing one's family. A related term was the Latin "gignere," to beget, which came from the Greek "gignesthai." See also the Online Etymology Dicitionary.

Don't worry, though. Most people still think Upset came from the horse that beat Man O'War.

What does pitbull breeding have to do with VY defending his WRs from receiving dirty hits from their team-mates?

Nothing, really. It was a bit of a bad analogy. I think soldiers or police better capture what we were talking about. People who have to be aggressive one second, and are then expected to stop being aggressive the next second. VY, like all football players, is expected to play aggressively until the whistle blows, and then stop being aggressive afterwards. This time, he kind of didn't stop being aggressive soon enough.

This clip was shown on SportsCenter and to me it was clear the safety made a dirty hit on the WR, the WR was crumpled on the ground holding his neck, and I thought VYs reaction was rational.

Rational or not, he really should've kept his cool instead of throwing a punch with the same hand that he throws passes with. It's great that he's sticking up for his teammates, and he had every right to be angry, but the rest of his team depends on him being able to throw. If he got himself injured and wasn't able to play for a while, then he'd be letting down his entire team. He should've known better, and used his other hand, or for that matter, got the coaches to come with him when he confronted the guy. I don't think it makes him a stupid person, but it was a stupid decision. I'm sure he's learned a valuable lesson from it.

#11, 17:

The analogy was not a good one. Please ignore it from here and use the soldier analogy offered by others instead. My mistake.

re 7,8 and 9:

That's a load of crap. The rate of violent behavior off-the-field in the NFL is basically the same as that in general society. I think the difference is in our perception - what they're doing as a profession is athletic. Yes, it involves absorbing/inflicting pain but this is neither the goal nor the primary tool that these guys use. Their goal is success, winning a game. And their primary tool is strategy.

The bigger problem is not some kind of rage that they need to control, it is that these men have been glorified and treated 'above the law' for most of their lives and have a sense of entitlement which lends itself to exaggerated behavior. Much the same can be witnessed amongst adults who lived a privileged/spoiled childhood.

And I repeat: we simply hear all the news about these guys' mistakes. I'm not sure the rate of incidence is any different than that in society at large. And it's probably much lower than the incidence of antisocial behavior where most of these guys come from (ie: poor neighborhoods/backgrounds).

I was just surprised after 10 posts no one really commented on what this looked like on TV. I actually didn't have the volume up, but only caught the safety collaring the WR, and Young going after him. It didn't look like a bad punch, more of a face-mask push.

I suppose hooper kind've hi-jacked the topic... I'd have to disagree with his premise regarding football players being unable to control themselves off the field. I don't think the violent crime rate is as high as we preceive. There are plenty of football players, a majority, a vast majority, who are able to keep their "aggression" under control.

Actually I think Alex already said this...

Anybody else read this and think "dumb, but I like this kid." Perhaps "thoughtless" is better than dumb.

In the old days, Staubach would have called his JAG lawyer, Bradshaw would have tackled and bitten a chunk of flesh from the guy's ass, Jim Plunkett would have broken a whiskey bottle over his head, Kenny Stabler would have handled it with a pool cue, and Bert Jones would have thrown rocks at the guy's head with his usual soft touch (120 MPH). And as much as I love Peyton Manning and revile Bill Simmons, I strongly suspect PM would have made what is called "the Manning face" and had some more temperate words with him at break.

I like what Young did, but suspect a little pushing and yelling (hook a non-throwing index finger in his face mask to get his attention while yelling?)would be a LOT better than risking his throwing hand.

I suspect nobody will give him shit for the next 10 years, partially out of respect, partially because they're afraid their QB will injure himself doing something unadvisable. Either way, what he did worked.

Now let's see it on the playing field, when somebody like Sapp blind-sides one of his blockers (like the Chad Clifton incident)--I want to see VY deck the sonofabitch. If that happens, I may just make TN my #2 team.

re 7,8 and 9:

That’s a load of crap. The rate of violent behavior off-the-field in the NFL is basically the same as that in general society.

Wow, that sounds familiar, where have I heard something like that before? Oh that's right, I said something just like that in #9:

"Kibbles looked at the conviction rate amongst NFL players and found that it compares favorably to that of the general population, so I don’t think there’s really that much of a problem with violent NFL players."

I don’t think the violent crime rate is as high as we preceive. There are plenty of football players, a majority, a vast majority, who are able to keep their “aggression� under control.

Actually I think Alex already said this…

I tried to, but apparently nobody understood me.

Boy, did I make a mess of things. Let me state clearly:

The pitbull analogy was stupid; there was no effective way to use it to make the point I intended to make.

I did not intend to imply "rage", but an aggressive nature. An aggressive nature does not imply a lack of control, as rage does.

I also believe that football players are very good at controlling themselves, and never intended to imply otherwise (alluded to in post #12).

*group hug*

I'll quietly exit from this thread since I've already hosed it badly enough. If anybody else comments on my comments, please refer them to this post and #18.

Have fun!

Re #21
I think VY served notice to the team last year when DT Randy Starks picked off one of his passes, and VY leveled him.

This play was more sticking up for a teammates. For those like me who didn't see the video, I think the Tennessean article better conveys the seriousness of the hit:

After Young threw a ball to Roby, Nickey hit him hard, with his forearm near the receiver's neck. Nickey followed through on the tackle, bending Roby's head back awkwardly as the ball rolled away.

Bending your teammate's head back = NOT cool. A reaction there is not unreasonable in my book. I do, however, second the notion that that's what the rest of your teammates, and parts of the body other than your throwing hard, are for.

The reason that we don't hear about violent behavior in professional football players is that the job of nfl football player requires much more discipline than aggressiveness.

Most often, guys who allow their aggressive tendencies to turn into rage off the field exhibit the same lack of self-control on the field as well. They miss assignments because they're too busy trying to knock someone's head off, or their lack of self-control just plain prevents them from ever become skilled enough to compete for an nfl job.

Anybody else read this and think “dumb, but I like this kid.� Perhaps “thoughtless� is better than dumb.

Yeah, definitely. Good guy, bad decision.

Now let’s see it on the playing field, when somebody like Sapp blind-sides one of his blockers (like the Chad Clifton incident)–I want to see VY deck the sonofabitch. If that happens, I may just make TN my #2 team.

If he did that, VY would become my favorite NFL QB, and I would have to immediately order my very own Vince Young jersey. Forget "Varsity Blues". That would be heroic!

"I believe Kibbles looked at the conviction rate amongst NFL players and found that it compares favorably to that of the general population, so I don’t think there’s really that much of a problem with violent NFL players"

Right, but it compares extremely negatively to their income bracket, and its common knowledge that a lot of types of crimes are only prevalent in certain income brackets.

Alex,
If I started liking VY and the Titans, then, during Ind/TN games, I'd have to alternate my fake coach 'staches between the wide/thin Dungy style and the short/high/neo-Hitler Jeff Fisher style (with the fake Manning moustache worn during commercials, of course).

It all depends on how much I want my wife to talk to me during football season, I guess....

While we’re not exactly “breeding� players (perhaps “selecting� is a better term),

Hey, I tried my best to breed a player.

Am I the only one here that thinks the incident was shrewed media management by Jeff Fisher? It figures that playing this incident up only gets more national media attention.Oh and by the way I'm a Titans homie. Go Fisher, go VY!!

A DB cheapshotting a WR happens all the time in training camp. See the link for a report on Pittsburgh's version.

Hines Ward didn't punch either of the Steeler safeties involved on the helmet, though.

I just skimmed through the comments, so I'm sorry if this was pointed out before. I just checked it out, and it turns out that Donnie Nickey is the same guy that LenDale White spit on in training camp last year.

I think the guy might have watched Rudi one too many times.

They may be in line with the general population, but I wonder how football players compare to the rest of the segment earning 7 figures per year? I also wonder how many incidents that would get normal people arrested magically go away when you're a member of the local NFL team?

Sundown-

Most non-athletes who have annual incomes over $1MM are very well connected. Much more so than professional football players.

Who is more likely to get preferential treatment from the law: a famous athlete who can't sneeze without everybody in his city knowing about it, or the union boss/business leader who is a personal friend and campaign contributor to the district attorney/mayor/governor?

Whatever special treatment professional athletes get, I bet it pales in comparison to the special treatment less famous people in the same income stratosphere receive.

I don't remember any study by Kibbles but I do remember this stuff linked in my name.

This topic of the seeming prevalence of violence among football players was tackled by Chance months ago in an article by Alfred Blumstein and Jeff Benedict. Their article grew out of the book Pros and Cons by Benedict and Don Yaeger, which describes the high rate of arrest by NFL football players and suggests corrective action is needed. In “Criminal Violence of NFL Players Compared to the General Population� (Chance, Vol. 12, No. 3, Summer 1999, pp. 12-15), Chance authors present data that demonstrate the violent crime rate among professional football players is actually less than that among other males of the same age and race. Benedict and Yaegar collected data concerning arrest records of 509 NFL players. Their book reports that 21 percent of 509 NFL players had been arrested for something more serious than a minor brush with the law. The Chance article calculates rates for the general population and compares them to those of the football players, and concludes that despite what may appear to be a high prevalence rate of arrests for serious offenses among NFL players, these players in fact “seem to have a lower [crime] rate than the comparable population,� even though they are members of a profession that rewards violence on the football field.

The article cited is at http://www.public.iastate.edu/%7Echance99

"Chance authors present data that demonstrate the violent crime rate among professional football players is actually less than that among other males of the same age and race."

Which is totally irrellevant, as crime follows income lines not racial ones.

And theyre extremely high for their income group.

Also, if you think people making 1MM recieve more perks than athletes, I doubt it. You local CEO isnt going to get a break when he commits a violent crime.

It's a lot easier to watch every single arrest of, say, an Indianapolis Colt, than every single arrest in Indianapolis. I'm sure there are a number of people around here who can name every single player on the roster. I'm also sure there's not a single person who can name everyone in the city. :)

So we have much, much less trouble tracking every "incident" in the smaller group, and in general, we pay little attention to ratios. We simply see guys from the Bengals getting picked up and think "criminals."

Besides, it's not that easy to follow the larger group. I couldn't even find the spot in the Indy Star online where they show arrests, but you know that if a Colt is arrested, we'll all know about it.

Kibbles wrote this in the FO message board

I actually did a little bit of research on this subject recently. From what I found (from several different sources), during the last calender year (either from December 2005 to December 2006 or from February 2006 to February 2007, depending on the source) anywhere between 30-40 NFL players were convicted of a crime. Given that there are at least 1696 NFL players in the league at any given time (32 teams * 53-man rosters), not counting all of the transient players who get cut or added during the season, as well as those that don’t make it out of preseason, and at least 224 more practice squadders, that’s at most 2.36% of the NFL population (using the 40 convictions and 1696 players figures). If you calculate it with everyone who is on an NFL team during that span and use the 30 players figure, you’re looking at something closer to 1.5% of the NFL population.

When you also factor in the socio-economic background that most players are coming from (which results in a higher likelihood to be convicted of a crime), I wouldn’t be surprised to see the NFL coming off with a lower rate of conviction than the population as a whole. When you also factor in all of the charitable work contributed by the NFL (far more than the population as a whole- I suspect more even than similar earners in other professions), I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to say that America wouldn’t be such a horrible place after all if we all just acted more like NFL players.

In the article "Bad Behavior by the Numbers", FO on Fox, 5/30/07... yeah Google is hot... especially site:footballoutsiders.com

“Chance authors present data that demonstrate the violent crime rate among professional football players is actually less than that among other males of the same age and race.�

Which is totally irrellevant, as crime follows income lines not racial ones.

And theyre extremely high for their income group.

First off, can you provide any concrete evidence that they are extremely high for their income group? I'd be interested to know what the exact crime rates are among NFL players and others in their income group.

Second, and more important, whether they commit more crimes than their income group is irrelevant wrt the issue of the perception of the NFL as a league full of thugs and criminals.

Nobody is saying, "Look at all these NFL players committing crimes at a rate disproportionate to their income level! If someone doesn't stop them, our kids are going to think it's ok to make millions of dollars and then continue to commit crimes at the exact same rate that they do now."

People are saying stuff like, "The NFL is a bunch of thugs, just look at how much higher their crime rate is than everyone else's. Lots of them are committing violent crimes, and soon enough, our kids are going to think it's ok to be criminals like all the NFL players they emulate."

Young will learn. A seasoned veteran would have drove a hard spiral into Nickey's crotch on the next play. Vince should know there's only one guy you can punch with his helmet on--Dan Morgan.

The biggest difference is the type of crime for that level of income. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the level of white collar crime for that income level matched that of other crimes for professional athletes.