'If they caught Tampa Bay doing this, would people be suggesting that the Bucs' 2002 championship was tainted?'

Doubtful, given the Bucs victory was based on one of the more dominant defenses of the decade.

If they caught Peyton Manning and the Colts doing this, would Aaron Schatz and Bill Simmons be saying that their AFCC victory in January was tainted?

Just as expected, nothing but excuses from the patriot lovers. I think the best part of the article is where you rail on the chargers for a while, and the very next sentence, talk about how everyone loves to hate the patriots. Classy stuff.

I think an appropriate punishment would be for Belichick to have to hug Eric Mangini again, but for real this time.

Over under on comments on this thread is hearby set at 500.

FTR, I think the Broncos and the others do get a free pass for cheating on the cap. Their punishments were extremely light.

For the other teams Simmons names, either their indiscretions have nothing to do with the game (Cowboys) or they were legal at the time (Steelers)

Well I think what Patriots fans percieve as an over reaction has two parts to it aside from the underdog v evil empire mythos.
1. The tip of the iceberg. This is what they've been CAUGHT doing, and the Patriots are obviously a very competent organization, what are they actually getting away with?
2. It was pointless. The Packers and the Jets, when they were clearly struggling. No one respects bullies.

I won't claim to speak for everyone, but while my dislike for the Pats isn't at the same level of irrational hatred as some fans, that dislike stems from a very specific source.

It is not that they win too much, or that they are a better team, or even the amoount of media coverage. It is the idea that they somehow were this "clean cut, do it right, upstanding" group of people that the media and their fans portrayed, when they have done just as many dirty, devious, underhanded things on the field as any other team.

I certainly don't begrudge them the right to act just like everyone else, it's the fact that the media and some of their fans suggest they don't.

So when a story like this comes out, proof that they're just like everyone else, and the media and some of their fans seem so shocked and appalled, those like me that hated the sentiment that THIS team, beyond any other, was above reproach find it more than a little amusing.

5:
Yeah, I don't get the whole drugs and hookers thing as being on par with cheating at all. I mean, if the Bengals won the Super Bowl this year, would anyone consider the victory tainted just because the team has a few bad apples?

Wow. Faint condemnation, denial, rationalization and they-do-it-too-ism.

Almost reads like the thread-which-must-not-be-named, except with Belicheck/Patriots instead of Vick/Falcons.

So disappointing.

This is nothing more than yet another act in the pathetic Patriots-Jets hate-fest that started back when Parcells jumped ship. Since then, both side have behaved like spoiled 12 year old girls endlessly tattleing on the other while trying to steal each other's Barbie dolls. The league needs to punish both teams for being complete wienies.

Being totally cynical, I'm sure the Patriots weren't doing anything every other team isn't already doing. The Jets just blew the whistle on them to gain an upper hand in their wuss-feud. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised by the Jets baiting the Pats by using the same signals as last year just so the mangina could get his panties in a bunch and howl about cheating.

And from now on, whenever any team beats another, we're going to hear the losing coaches howling about the other team stealing their signals using some magic-eye camera or Jedi mind-tricks.

How totally lame. I hope both teams go 1-15.

"group of people that the media and their fans portrayed, "

THe fans dont portray that, its completely created by the media.

"It will be a footnote to the dynasty..."

Yeah, just like Palmeiro getting caught using roids was just a footnote on a hall of fame career.

"When cheating is exposed, teams are punished. You take your punishment like a man, and you move on -- and the fans of the other teams ALSO move on."

I'm not so sure. If I'm not sure that the games being played are on a level field, I'll stop watching. This is the reason I stopped watching the NBA (a long time ago, after that Lakers/Kings playoff game).

"The Patriots were breaking rules because they are obsessed with getting every minor strategic advantage, but that doesn't change the fact the strategic advantage is minor."

The very idea that Aaron knows how much an advantage the Pats gained at this point is laughable. What about the alledged microphone their defensive players have been using? There really isn't enough information available at this point to know how serious the situation is. This preemptive "It's no big deal" article is a joke.

"The idea that suddenly all three Super Bowl championships are tainted is ridiculous."

Well, how do you know they weren't cheating? Maybe Patriots players play so well because they are illegally being fed info, not because Belichek and Pioli are such geniuses. It's too early to rule it out.

How come nobody has suggested the fairly obvious punishment - the Patriots have to forfeit that game? Don't bother messing with future draft picks or salary caps or anything more arcane than this: if you cheat, your team automatically loses.

There's no way for certain that anybody can say that the video wasn't used by the pats.

The camera guy could have changed digital tapes between the 1st and 2nd quarters and given the 1st quarter tape to a runner.

I have to say that while tapegate is troublesome, the rumors (I'll repeat rumors) that the Pats put radio receivers in defensive players' helmets are much much more damaging.

The media isn't the only reason that other NFL fans hate patriot fans.

Patriots fans are another reason that other NFL fans hate patriots fans.

Exhibit A: Bill Simmons, patriot fan.

The pats are accused of cheating, and his article about it includes accusations against other teams for other kinds of cheating, "everybody else does steals signs," "it didn't help that much anyway," and "everybody else is overreacting."

I mean, come on now.

Common sense dictates that stolen signals are useful for mutiple games, for future games with the same opponent. For example, in the 2001 season, before SB36, the Rams played the Pats in NE. So, the Pats had an opportunity to steal signals before SB36. One actually could watch the replay of SB36 and say, "Voila! They cheated! It's all right there."

OF COURSE this whole story makes me even more bitter about the Rams SB 36 loss. What's even worse is that, in light of the worst week 1 in recent memory, the 2007 PFP's 2% Super Bowl Contender for the 2007 Rams seems generous.

re: 15

They could even have it broken down and matched up in between series. Or in between plays if there is a feed to the coaches booth.

If guys were doing it on a weekly basis with binoculars in the 70s, why would they have to wait until halftime to work them out now?

If they caught Peyton Manning and the Colts doing this, would Aaron Schatz and Bill Simmons be saying that their AFCC victory in January was tainted?

Simmons, maybe, but I doubt Aaron, because, if you read what he says in this article and in the previous XP, he is of the opinion that STEALING SIGNALS DOES NOT CONFER ALL THAT MUCH OF AN ADVANTAGE.

I think I agree. After all, aren't defenses supposed to be reactive? Isn't the MLB or SS supposed to take what the DC signals as a suggestion, and then make a defensive call based on that suggestion and what he sees of the offensive alignment? And aren't his signals clearly visible and recordable to anyone who has a Tivo at home?

While I believe the accusations are true, I dont understand how the patriots could keep so many people quiet for this long. I would think many players, coaches, and personnel would have to be invloved (if the defensive miking is to be believed). Maybe this is why the Jets brought in players before the game, rather then stealing there audibles? Massive coverups like this are hard to believe sometimes.

8: Exactly.

Here's a sample of what we're talking about: (link in name)

"If you’re searching for a Patriots-kind of player (Intelligent, tough, versatile, team-first attitude), then look no further than [Wake Forest Safety Josh] Gattis."

This is one of the reasons everyone hates the Patriots. If you can't understand why that is, you too are probably one of the reasons why everyone hates the Patriots.

I don't feel like they got a significant advantage out of this. Honestly, the biggest unfair competitive advantage the Patriots have had recently is Seattle's idiocy from last year. "Sure, we'll deal with your problem player who's holding out into the season, and give you a first-round pick, to boot!"

I do feel like this is tacky, and since they've already been warned about it once, the league needs to come up with a reasonable punishment (a draft pick, 3rd through 5th round, maybe) so we can move on.

Obviously, if there's substance to the radio allegations, those should carry an additional (and much more severe) punishment, but I don't see enough evidence to prove that true, or even likely, at the moment.

5 - Good point. The Cowboys did nothing to enhance their on field performance. If anything, wouldn't spending the week having all night coke parties screw you up for Sunday? The Cowboys winning despite all the drugs and hookers is an accomplishment.

OMO should repost his amusing Patriots rant/poem here.

1. I think people would be a lot less upset if the Patriots came out and admitted what they did in public.
So far, they haven't.
It sounds like they are cheating and lying,
I am not saying they are doing this, but that's how it comes across.
2. Maybe I am very naive, but does Tony Dungy do this?
I am thinking no way, I could be wrong, who knows?

silliness. no one will be talking about this in 2 weeks. I'm already at who gives a sh!t status. All teams make a habit of stealing signs. BB used a camera. I know this sounds like murder now but it will subside.

"If they caught Tampa Bay doing this, would people be suggesting that the Bucs’ 2002 championship was tainted?"

It's not an analogous situation, but I thought it was established that part of the reason the Bucs humiliated the Raiders so thoroughly was that they hadn't bothered to change their offensive audibles since Gruden's departure. Now, that certainly doesn't "taint" the championship, but it does put an asterisk next to that particular defensive performance.

"If they caught Peyton Manning and the Colts doing this, would Aaron Schatz and Bill Simmons be saying that their AFCC victory in January was tainted?"

Heh, Simmons would *never* have shut up about that.

For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of the Patriots and I can't get too worked up about this. (If I were a Jets fan, maybe...) Stealing signs, or figuring out another team's playcalling system, is good strategy if you can do it; using a camera was just one step over the line separating "gamesmanship" from "espionage". (But asking a former player would presumably be OK, right?) Take away a couple of their draft picks and let's get on with the season.

Sweet! A Patriot story.

re: 20

Fair enough.
In that case though,where there is no real advantage, it means Belichick is taking such a stupid risk, by exposing his team to the wrath of the league office and destroying his own and his franchises reputation, that I don't see how he ever became a HC in the first place, let alone won 3 superbowls.

Surely this is a case of a team crossing a line not blowing it out of the water. They should get punished and they will. Thankfully that punishment isn't going to be decided on by Patriot haters or Patriot lovers so it should be fair.

A few points after reading it:

1 - I was actually very interested in the takes of Schatz and Simmons, mainly because you two are Pats fans. While I defiantly think that Schatz is the more level headed of the two in terms of being fair (what with looking at numbers rather than being a boston sports homer) Simmons has frequently shown willing to at least consider the outside world. And in that I feel you're a pair of Pats fans who are often fair to the rest of the world, it's reasonable for all us not pats fans to listen to your takes and be fair to you.

2 - I've stayed away from most of the comments on sports reporting sites because they tend to be stupid. The level of the reaction that's often seen comes from the people who want to get noticed more often (I feel) and so take more extreme positions. The reasonable types often don't say much. The hew and cry of the public (in the form of messages/replies to stories) is often over-representative of those with an extreme position. The hew and cry of journalists (I feel) is often a matter of niche-carving where saying the normal (they stole some signs, meh, look at all the other things that have been done, lets not jump overboard here) doesn't get you noticed when you're the 20th internet sports writer to say it. SO BAN THEM, LET THEM BURN! etc etc.

3 - As for the crime and punishment, I guess before I say that I should say I'm a Colts fan, the crime was videotaping signals (so far as published reports citing NFL sources say). The REAL crime was getting caught. As many people have pointed out, coaches cover their mouths for a reason - and while it may not have been video tape but binoculars, so this isn't exactly surprising in what was happening but how. For punishment I'd offer the Pats an option, were I Goodell, either the pats forfeit a second round choice in next year's draft, or the pats privately provide him enough evidence of who ordered the taping, and that person be fined whatever amount the NFL deems fit to meet the crime (such as the average rookie signing amount and bonus from a late second round pick). In the first case the team can protect whom it wishes if they don't want public scrutiny on the individual, sacrificing a draft pick that's valuable enough to actually hurt to lose. If they do want to go public, and have the positive public feedback of actually taking responsibility for their actions they can choose the second route, pay the fine and keep the draft pick.

4 - Interesting convo, and from his writing, I must say I feel you, Aaron, have had a noticeable effect on Simmons' writing.

5 - Sorry for going on so long.

6 - Happy Ramadan and Rosh Hashanah to those that practice them.

Everything about the Patriots seems to make people too emotional, so I wish fans would take a step back and ask 'How would I feel about this if the Jacksonville Jaguars had been caught doing it?'

And if the Jags had recently won three super bowls and had one of the top coaches in the league, that would be a valid point.

I also disagree that the Bucs or Jacksonville are appropriate comparisons. The Pats have been consistent winners since 2000. If it came out that the Colts or Eagles were doing this, I think the uproar would be just as big. If it came out that the Bucs were, I think people would mostly find it laughable that they still couldn't manage to field a winning team for several of those seasons.

That said, I think that a day 1 draft pick and/or minor suspension of BB would be appropriate at this stage. If they get a stern slap on the wrist, that's okay too. I will be up in arms over this if it comes out that the "RF disturbances" were a result of (a) wired defensive players or (b) stealing other offenses' audio signals, though.

I don't understand why people aren't suggesting that the Jets game be forfeited.

You still have to do something else (you don't want to say 'if you cheat, make sure you lose!') but seriously: the Patriots were caught manipulating a game. Why aren't people suggesting they forfeit that game?

The fact that it wasn't close is immaterial. In college football, if you play with an ineligible player, you forfeit those games (technically, you're stripped of those wins).

I don't even think it's that serious a punishment. I certainly can't understand how it wouldn't be fair. I mean, taking away draft picks, fine, but what if that was the Super Bowl? Would the threat of taking away draft picks really stop you from doing it?

Keep in mind the refs can, in fact, declare a forfeit in the case of "palpably unfair acts." If the refs had seen the video camera, they would've been fully within their rights to declare the game forfeited by New England.

POLITICAL POST DELETED.

If this was not much of a competitive advantage (which I agree with), why would the Patriots still do it, even after previously being warned not to? That makes me think that there might be more of an advantage gained than I realize.

I don't know why so many people believe that Belichick suddenly turned into an idiot. Isn't the more reasonable explanation that they did, in fact, gain something by doing this?

I would like to apologize to Richie.

My opinion on forfeits: If you could catch them and penalize them for signal-stealing during the game, then there'd be no call to penalize them retroactively afterward. But obviously that's not going to happen - it's taking a good week to sort out the penalty for something that was caught during the game. Given the choice between retroactive penalties and letting tainted results stand, I'll take the forfeits.

#35: Okay, I get that. But nothing's going to change the fact that the Patriots did win that game. The game itself still exists. It's just that the Patriots record should say "0-1" and the Jets should say "1-0".

Any other punishment will never be a sufficient deterrent. That's why the "palpably unfair acts" rule is in there. If the Raiders send out Lane Kiffin to break Peyton Manning's knees during a Raiders-Colts game, that might be the only way the Raiders win, and you wouldn't say "darn you, Lane Kiffin! We're suspending you for three games and taking away draft picks (but yeah, you beat the Colts)." No - the refs would declare the game forfeited.

Wow. I hate the Pats (I'm a Dolphins fan, ffs!), but some of you and most of the media just have bloodlust right now. The excuse for the media is obvious, they feed off these kind of stories. What's yours?

"Pats should forfeit the game!"
"Belicheck should be fired!"
"The dynasty is tainted!"

Please. Take their first or second round pick and be done with it. Almost every team tries to steal signals in EVERY sports league, starting in little league. The pats used a video camera to help do so, which is against NFL rules. Fine. Guilty. But why do you want the death penalty for something that might not even give any competitive advantage? Anything beyond a high draft pick and/or 1-2 game suspension for Belicheck just wouldn't fit the crime.

By the way, if we're going after the Pats, I wish Goodell had been around when the Patriots intentionally let their field go to complete crap in the playoffs to negate opposing players' speed. THAT was a competetive advantage, and a dangerous one at that.

A couple of my thoughts from the other thread (sorry for the repeat)

Thinking about how this could work, one guy films the defensive signals, the video is transmitted to some guy sat in front of a computer (using one of the unauthorised radio frequencies) who looks through each signal and tries to seperate each component of the ’semaphore’ and logs each set of signals against the play. Meanwhile one or two guys in the coaches box enter what happened in the defensive scheme onto a database, ie 43over, sam blitz, man cover, dl slnt rht, safeties 2over (or some other set of parameters that would actually apply to football) or just compared the plays to previously identified plays form the weeks scouting. Then you have approx 90mins to match up parts of the signals to the plays run. If you got good at it 90 minutes would be a long time. After two and a half hours you could probably have most of the signals down. Bear in mind you can prioritise which parts you want to decipher first, and that there are only so many things you can do with your arms while keeping each part of the signal distinct and each action has to be performed quickly to have any point at all. Also the information would only be arriving when one team has the ball. You might get 10 to 15 minutes between drives.

What the hell do you think the other owners think about this? Their teams have been placed at a competitive disadvantage by the Patriots cheating.

first, you gotta love that Bill Simmons writes of the Pats as "we."

Second, this is as good a place as any to clarify why I'm sick of the Pats. I'm sick of deifying someone (Belichik) who's been good but also stupefying lucky. Is he a very good coach? Sure, of course. But he also got hella lucky to win that first super bowl, got incredibly lucky to win so many close games en route to the second super bowl (check out your writing on guts vs stomps!) and finally, and most importantly, got incredibly lucky on Tom Brady. Is Belichik a genius be/c he had a 7th round flyer sitting on his bench that only got to play b/c Bledsoe got hurt?

People who lionize Belichik would be well served to read "Fooled by Randomness." It's only 20 games to super bowl champ and with so few events, you're gonna draw some pretty lousy conclusions if all that you measure is "did they win the super bowl." Same reason why all those high priced FA signings from super bowl champs and head coach hires from super bowl coordinators have such a low hit rate...

#37: I don't think so, no. To me, Belichick's obviously got obsessive behavior - hence the media behavior, hence the injury reports, etc.

I mean, you hear people in sports stick to wild and crazy ideas like wearing the same socks all season. These guys don't rigorously test all of their ideas. If they are winning, they keep doing it.

" Unless you want to retroactively remove Gaylord Perry from the Baseball Hall of Fame and force the San Diego Chargers to forfeit any game Shawne Merriman played before his positive steroids test last year.

Simmons: Merriman had a positive steroids test last year? Whaaaaaaaat??? I thought LaDainian 'I stole Lawrence Taylor's nickname' Tomlinson just told us the Patriots were the cheaters. I'm so confused. The next thing you're going to tell me is that Luis Castillo failed a steroids test right before the 2005 draft or something."

Did anyone notice this, the irony of Rodney Harrison almost came through the computer and hit me.

This article is like watching the Iraqi information minister talk to himself.

What I find particularly entertaining is the constant assertion by Patriots fans that this provides a minimal advantage.

So, despite receiving a DIRECT warning from the league officiating office that they were violating the rules, they kept doing it knowing that they would face big penalties if caught. Because it was almost completely devoid of value. To the organization everyone is quick to proclaim as the smartest in football.

Makes perfect sense. The infidels are being driven back from the gates of Foxborough as we speak.

44:

Well, yeah, but you don't risk significant penalty and damage to your reputation by wearing the same socks all year.

In regards to Bill Simmon's link to the Rick Reilly article where Shanahan "admits" he uses lipreaders... I'm not denying the possibility that Shanahan uses lipreaders, but can you please find me ONE credible source on the subject? And no, a SATIRICAL article that features *NUMEROUS FABRICATED QUOTES* does not count as a credible source. I mean, Bill Simmons is actually citing a quote in an article that blatantly fabricated numerous quotes as if it's some sort of proof of anything. If Shanahan really said that, I'm sure there'd be at least one other source out there reporting it. Good luck trying to find it. I'm almost certain that Shanahan's "admission" that he uses lipreaders is a total farce, which totally pokes holes in the "everyone does it" theory.

Re #6: It’s absolutely disgraceful that Tagliabue was so soft on the Broncos for cheating on the salary cap. I’m a Tagliabue fan, but I think Goodell has a better attitude toward discipline and will not let the Pats off as easily as Tagliabue let the Broncos off.

There is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference between what the Broncos did and what the Patriots are accused of doing. The official NFL statement on Denver's salary cap violations was that they were "plainly designed to help the club cope with seasonal cash flow problems exacerbated by the Broncos' need to fund front-end expenditures associated with development of the new stadium in Denver."

In other words, the league ruled that it was CLEARLY EVIDENT that the violations were done with neither maliciousness nor intent to gain a competitive advantage. I suppose you could argue back and forth whether a competitive advantage was actually gained (personally, I don't think Elway was playing any harder because, instead of getting his paycheck, depositing it, and letting it accrue interest for a year, he got his paycheck a year later with a year's worth of interest), but that's entirely irrelevant. Denver did not cheat in an effort to gain a competitive advantage, they cheated because their owner was broke and it was the only way for them to honor their financial obligations. New England cheated MALICIOUSLY in an effort to gain a competitive advantage. In my mind, comparing New England's fiasco to Denver's is like comparing homicide to criminal negligence. The result might have been the same (again, I don't think it was, but for the sake of argument...), but the intent was miles apart.

Re #24: 2. Maybe I am very naive, but does Tony Dungy do this?
I am thinking no way, I could be wrong, who knows?

Tony Dungy may look like Ghandi and talk like Ghandi, but he's no saint. Check his injury reports from last season and see if you're still of the opinion that he's above violating the spirit of rules, if not the letter, for even a ludicrously small competitive advantage. In addition, there have been accusations that his defensive line coach teaches his players to intentionally injure, and that he illegally piped crowd noise through the speaker systems against Pittsburgh, among other things. His closet isn't nearly as clean as everyone seems to believe.

The Pats have won three Superbowls by very narrow margins, and they have probably been cheating for all of them. It's a real shame, I used to really admire their professionalism but now the championships will always be tainted in my mind. The argument that 'everybody does it' is the same wretched excuse used by steroid cheats. If the information gained wasn't helping them win then they wouldn't have bothered to collect it. The Pats will have won games that they otherwise would have lost and opposing players and coaches have suffered as a result (Schottenheimer lost his job because he couldn't win in the plyoffs after losing a close game to the Pats). Peyton Manning for example is more open to his signals being recorded by microphones in DL's pads than any other player and he acquired a reputation as a chocker because he couldn't beat the Pats. The fine should be at least a 1st rounder.

47: I wouldn't be so sure about that.