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The NFL just announced the punishment for the Patriots’ and Bill Belichick’s signal-taping shenanigans. Bill Belichick will be fined $500,000; the Patriots organization will be fined $250,000; and, shrewdly, the Patriots will lose their first-round draft pick in 2008 if they make the playoffs this year (if not, they lose their second and third-round picks). Quote Commissioner Goodell: “This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field.” Goodell also stated that he considered suspending Belichick, but decided the fines and pick forfeitures would be “more significant and long-lasting.”
posted
9-13-2007 at 8:59 PM by
Ben Riley
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Extra Points
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I gotta say I agree with MDS, the commish should have suspended the coach. The fine isn’t exactly meaningless–nobody wants to write a check for five-hunnit yards–but it’s close.
:: dave crockett — 9/13/2007 @ 9:10 pm
OK, so what’s the O/U for this thread?
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 9:11 pm
Well, it appears “an example is being made”. A 1st rounder? Seriously? I said I would be angry if the pick was as high as a 4th rounder. I’m blown away.
:: Pat on the back — 9/13/2007 @ 9:11 pm
This is absurd. It’s nothing more than a slap on the wrist compared to the massive advantage this may (or may not) have given the Patriots.
:: Jesse — 9/13/2007 @ 9:11 pm
The Cheaters got lucky. They deserve much worse.
:: Bawth McCuddy — 9/13/2007 @ 9:13 pm
I’d have preferred a 2-4 game suspension and/or forfeit of the Jets game. The loss of a first-round pick isn’t much of a penalty, since they have two first-rounders next year. Slap on the wrist.
:: billsfan — 9/13/2007 @ 9:14 pm
$500,000? Belichik spends that much a year on his mistress.
:: raidermoishe — 9/13/2007 @ 9:16 pm
Yes, the worst punishment ever meted out in the history of the NFL on a coach or a franchise.
Just a wrist slap.
:: Vern — 9/13/2007 @ 9:16 pm
This seems fair. The contingency for making the playoffs or not making the playoffs seems a little odd to me. Just making it a first round pick would be more of a message.
A half million dollar personal fine should make most coaches think twice before they attempt any such infraction again.
I personally would like to have seen the team fined more as well. Making the teams fine $5ook, bringing the total fine to $1m would have been more appropriate.
I would also like to add that the other message string relating to this topic was unusually irrational for an FO discussion.
ftr, I am a Patriots fan.
:: Alex DL — 9/13/2007 @ 9:18 pm
As I said in the 489+ post thread, the Commish’s press release referred to having imposed the “maximum fines”. So presumably league rules prevented him from going higher should he have wanted to.
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 9:19 pm
The Timberwolves are unimpressed.
:: Bill — 9/13/2007 @ 9:20 pm
I mean how can he afford his snappy wardrobe after this fine?
:: andrew a — 9/13/2007 @ 9:20 pm
12:
He can’t afford sleeves as it is, he might have to do without the hood, too.
:: billsfan — 9/13/2007 @ 9:21 pm
You draft value board geeks — what’s more total value, the first rounder a deep-into-the-playoff team would have, or the 2nd and 3rd round picks the typical non-playoff team would have?
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 9:21 pm
This warranted a suspension and I’m a bit disappointed that the league won’t go that far. Blatant cheating in the attempt to gain competitive advantage, regardless of whether the advantage gained is real, is exactly the kind of thing that gets a player suspended. The Patriots will shrug off this penalty.
:: AleX — 9/13/2007 @ 9:22 pm
According to a google-found draft chart, late first round (26-32) picks are 590-700 points.
The #20 (last non-playoff) picks in the second and third rounds are 380 and 170, or, 510 total points.
:: Bill — 9/13/2007 @ 9:25 pm
#14: The first rounder. By far. The second and third are piddling. By pretty much any measure, the first rounder is worth more.
:: Pat — 9/13/2007 @ 9:25 pm
Interestingly, the Patriots still have a first round pick next year, or less likely two first round picks. (Thanks to SF.)
:: DWE — 9/13/2007 @ 9:26 pm
Money quote from a rant on sportinggurus:
“This is a sport where every possible advantage is relentlessly pursued, on every level from the owner’s box down through special teams coverage guys and all the way down to laundry attendants. It might be the most competitive single industry on God’s good earth. If I’m in that industry and I can get away with videotaping my opponents’ signals, you’re damn skippy I’m going to do it, and I’m going to do everything else I can think of that I can get away with. And docking me a first-round pick does not convince me I can’t get away with it. In fact, it kind of makes me believe I can.”
Full ramble/rant’s linked to my name, in case you care.
:: Justin Zeth — 9/13/2007 @ 9:26 pm
Re: #16
Thanks!
Oh, and I’m still waiting for someone to set an O/U number for this thread :)
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 9:26 pm
Re: #18
Good point.
So (assuming making the playoffs), which do they lose? Their own? The highest?
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 9:30 pm
It would likely be impossible to prove if such tactics ever helped the Pats win a game, or get into the playoffs, or win a Super Bowl, they wouldn’t otherwise have won. But if it did? Wouldn’t this be a slap on the wrist?
Personally I think there is a legitimate chance that the Pats won games they might not otherwise have - important games. Therefore I think Bellichek should have received a significant suspension of 1 year or more. Particularly given the fact that the teams were specifically warned against such behaviour. I think an entire draft class would have been more appropriate as well.
:: Jim M — 9/13/2007 @ 9:32 pm
All I have to say is it is time to put a * next to their wins. We will never know how good this team actually was. This team was one of my favorites and now has dropped to the bottom of my list. I cannot express in words how much I am disappointed with what the they have done to the image of the NFL. Glad to see that they received a decent punishment for this.
:: Joe — 9/13/2007 @ 9:32 pm
Hmm. Not withstanding the crazy rants on both sides, this is a reasonable outcome.
The issue is that we don’t (and maybe even Goodell doesn’t, or doesn’t want to) know just how long they’ve been doing it and just how much they got out of it. As a punishment for what they were caught doing it seems fair.
The larger issue, though, is what it means to what they have accomplished since 2001. If you consider that they may have been cheating while winning 3 super bowls, that’s a much bigger deal than if the Browns are sneaking a little something something on their way to being 4-12. In that case a much larger penalty would be appropriate. But I don’t think Goodell WANTS to know how far back it goes or how wide it has spread. I think he wants to deal with it like they started doing it this season, and I guess this is a fair punishment if you look at it that way.
:: johnt — 9/13/2007 @ 9:32 pm
I think this is pretty fair, considering Goodell’s penchant for harsh penalties. Kind of what I expected, anything more would have been an overreaction. Any talk of forfeiting the Jets game or losing the entire 2008 draft is ludicrous.
:: Mike — 9/13/2007 @ 9:33 pm
As long as BB pays the fine personally with no Kraft assistance, I think this is fair.
Team suffers for leader being a doofus.
I think Goodell figured that unless he stuck BB naked in a bunker with video suveillance the guy would be guiding the team somehow so suspension was pointless.
:: BadgerT1000 — 9/13/2007 @ 9:33 pm
The best suggestion I saw was to take the Pats 2008 draft picks and make them the last 7 (or however many picks they have) of the entire draft.
I favor this because by eliminating picks you are punishing the prospective players would would have been drafted since the draft would contain 7 fewer choices. Moving all their picks to the end of the 7th round though keeps the same # of picks in the draft overall yet greatly punishes the Pats
:: Jason — 9/13/2007 @ 9:33 pm
So this story is over now, right? Right?
:: Mike — 9/13/2007 @ 9:33 pm
Re: #22
One could just as easily argue that because the Commish didn’t do all those things, he didn’t think it made that much of a difference.
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 9:35 pm
A player hurts the NFL image by basically being a small time “crook” - Pacman - he’s out a year. Belichick jeopardizes the integrity of the game and he gets a fine and the Pats lose a draft pick.
Seems to me that from that perspective the punishment is absurdly low.
:: Jim M — 9/13/2007 @ 9:37 pm
Vern, who says this isn’t the worst case of cheating in the NFL? Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, but taking one of two first round picks and fining the coach and organization what amounts to a quick check doesn’t hurt them very much for all of the unfair advantages they may or may not have gotten.
:: Jesse — 9/13/2007 @ 9:38 pm
Anything less than a lifetime ban for Bellicheat is a slap on the wrist. A real deterent is needed to make sure no coach cheats in such a manner.
:: Mark — 9/13/2007 @ 9:39 pm
They got what they deserved, if not more (A first round pick!). Now maybe this story will go away. I’ve gotta say, I’m almost bothered more by the sanctimonious moralizing of all those whose teams have been toyed with by the Patriots over the past five years than Belichick and his coaching staff. Seriously guys. First of all, this is the NFL. There are very few who are without sin. And second, if you really think they’ve been kicking everyone’s ass because they’ve been videotaping signals you’re out of your mind. I think the tongue bath that the media’s been giving the Pats these past several years has made us all completely detached from reality.
:: Pat27 — 9/13/2007 @ 9:40 pm
Mark, come off it, dude. I happen to agree that this punishment was too little, but… don’t be stupid.
:: Justin Zeth — 9/13/2007 @ 9:41 pm
24 times since 2001 they’ve faced a team twice in one season.
8 of those times they lost the first game. 6 of those times they won the second time around. Against the Jets last year they won, then lost, then won in the postseason. Three times they have won the first game and lost the second.
Some dramatic turnaround the second time they face a team include losing to Buffalo 31-0 then beating Buffalo a few weeks later 31-0. In 2004 as some of you might remember they lost to the Steelers 34-20 in the regular season, and then beat them 41-27 in the posteason (but you can blame Ben for some of that).
Of those 24 times, 15 of the times Brady’s stats improved in the second game anywhere from a little to significantly. As in, night and day.
Of the 12 times they won the first and second meeting, 8 times they did anywhere from a little to a lot better the second time around.
If you care to see the stats I put together, you can take a lookie (slick my name). I put up year, opponent, date, score, and Brady’s stat line. I figure that if the allegations were true and there really was any benefit, it would just about all be on offense, and most of that benefit would go to Tom “Friend of Goats” Brady.
Maybe Belichick is just really good the second time around, or maybe he did a little “film study” and had an idea of what the other team was going to do before they did it. You decide.
:: Jesse — 9/13/2007 @ 9:41 pm
#30
PacMan’s a single player with no leverage.
Robert Kraft is an influential owner, who was involved in *approving Goodell for his job.*
:: Bill — 9/13/2007 @ 9:42 pm
An interesting question (which we mere mortals will probably never know the answer to) is how Goodell arrived at the specifics of his decision.
I can see two theories of punishment (not mutually exclusive). One is punishment based on the competitive effects of the violation. The other is punishment based on the fact that you broke a rule (regardless of the magnitude of the competitive effects of the violation).
I personally think the specific sentence handed down points at Goodell taking the latter approach. I think he knows/has been told there wasn’t much of an advantage and that other teams are doing it. That coupled with him wanting to continue to be known as a hardass leads to the sentence handed down.
Given that he is trying to come across as a hardass, I have to think that if he thought the violation had meaningful competitive effects, he’d have come down a lot harder than he did.
Though as someone else pointed out, there is the realpolitik of dealing with Kraft, especially since either side can reopen the CBA in 2009.
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 9:42 pm
Arrogance and hubris are what is being penalized here and I don’t think Belichick will loose even 1% of his because of this incident.
I keep on feeling like the Sunday night game will feature a “thumbing your nose at the league” moment. Something to the effect of all blitzers raising their hands and yelling out: “I’m blitzing”. I am actually looking forward to any miked up moments that this game has.
I can’t wait to get to football.
Is the other thread officially closed now that this thread is open. In which case the under wins at 491. WOW!
:: Alex DL — 9/13/2007 @ 9:43 pm
As far as I can tell, and I am not well-versed in legalese syntax by any regard, the Pats were fined for doing something allowable in a non-allowable area.
From the NFL.com story:
Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.
:: TomG — 9/13/2007 @ 9:43 pm
For those who think $500 000 is a lot of money, take a look at what happened today in Formula 1. The McClaren team has just been hit with a fine of $100 000 000 for… spying.
:: Grand Wazoo — 9/13/2007 @ 9:43 pm
There is a new twist in this whole story. There were screencaps of the game floating around (one such linked) that was originally thought to be the Patriots cameraman. Well, that isn’t the Patriots guy, and so now folks are thinking it was a Jets cameraman doing the exact same thing during the same game.
:: Ben — 9/13/2007 @ 9:47 pm
An interesting thing will be if Kraft will be willing to renew Belichick’s contract (whenever it expires) due to this.
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 9:47 pm
Justin, come off what? How many years has this gone on? This is not a one time offence. How many games were won illegally? How many playoff games? How many Super Bowls? The man has tarnished the league. How many coaches would cheat, trading a draft pick or two for a Super Bowl win? A real deterent is needed. Seriously.
:: Mark — 9/13/2007 @ 9:49 pm
It’s not like every team in the league does this in some form. Or that the Dolphins essentially bought a tape with Tom Brady’s cadences on it and the league didn’t do anything.
Even if a football team was given the ability to clearly and unambiguously record the defensive signals from the sideline to the players on the field, they would still have to:
1) Properly identify the defense that was played that down, AND
2) Correlate the signals with the alignment of the D-line, LBs and DBs, AND
3) Cross-reference the signals with the play AND with any audibles called by the defensive players on the field after the set and prior to the snap
Assuming, of course, you can tell the difference between real and fake signals. Which means observing numerous plays and numerous hand signals, which makes it extremely difficult for this technique to yield reliable info for the game at hand. Even if you could somehow unambiguously decipher every single defensive signal, it’s almost guaranteed that those signals would change by the next game. Which means this technique is only effective for providing a questionable edge for the second game of the year against division rivals. Three games out of sixteen.
Even given all this, the players still have to execute the plays - if the RB is poor in blitz pickup, it’s not going to help much knowing which side the blitz is coming from. Either way, the RB is getting run over.
:: Rory — 9/13/2007 @ 9:51 pm
The league is setting an example with the Pats. If this is Arizona, nobody even hears about this.
:: Rory — 9/13/2007 @ 9:52 pm
500k for Bellicheck and 250k for the Patriots seems like a drop in the bucket compared to the 100M fine that the Williams F1 team was handed today. That and they can’t compete for the constructors championship. There is also the possability that they will prevented from competing next year also. Oh, besides the fine they also lose the possability of money from the constructors championship fund. Can you imagine if the fine had been say 10M plus the lose of all shared revenue for the Patriots. It could have been much, much worse for the Patriots.
The reason for the fine, cheating. Stealing info from an opposing team.
:: Frick — 9/13/2007 @ 9:52 pm
This is waaay overblown. $500K and pick for something that wasn’t even a rule last year. of course, the Pats probably won’t even need the pick next year…
:: Otis Taylor '89 — 9/13/2007 @ 9:53 pm
I’m not a Pats fan, but I think this punishment is fair.
Jesse, the problem is no one has any idea how much the taping has helped the Patriots. Your stats give no context. What is the average record when playing the same team twice in the season? The Patriots record in those games could be within the norm.
If they didn’t gain much (which you don’t believe is true, but is still possible) then a penalty much greater than this is probably overkill. And besides, giving the team an SMU-like-burial that affects their ability to compete for a long time is not in the best interests of the league.
:: Zac — 9/13/2007 @ 9:54 pm
“Justin, come off what? How many years has this gone on? This is not a one time offence [sic]. How many games were won illegally? How many playoff games? How many Super Bowls? The man has tarnished the league. How many coaches would cheat, trading a draft pick or two for a Super Bowl win? A real deterent [sic] is needed. Seriously.”
How many games WERE won illegally? Playoff games, Super Bowl games?
What kind of effect DOES this have on a teams capacity to win?
Because it seems like the crowd that says this tarnishes everything says that this has a huge impact. Fair enough, that makes some intuitive sense.
But then… pretty much all the football experts discussing what knowledge the Pats gained by using videotape instead of good ole binoculars seem to think this made very little difference.
The wild card seems to be the wild conjecture that’s springing up around this… how much (if any) of the other accusations have merit?
And since no one rightfully thinks the Pats are the only team to engage in this practice… is it only a matter of time before the other accusations start to fly?
:: Derek — 9/13/2007 @ 9:54 pm
Re: 41. How would the Jets get an advantage by recording their own team, as the guy in the picture appears to be doing?
Re: 44. The league decided that the Patriots broke the rules, and they were punished for it. Your denial only succeeds in making the discourse more and more heated.
:: Zac — 9/13/2007 @ 9:57 pm
Re: #35
I’ll take “small sample sizes” for $200, Alex.
:: speedracer — 9/13/2007 @ 9:57 pm
dont look now, but Mortensen was just on ESPN radio and said the NFL was also going to open an investigation into the entire Patriots film department. Not sure what this means, but Mort said its possible that there is even more to this story…wow!
:: Don Booza — 9/13/2007 @ 9:59 pm
BREAKING NEWS from ESPN! The Pats just traded their 2008 1st round pick for Detroit’s 2008 2nd & 3rd!
:: JFP — 9/13/2007 @ 10:01 pm
Re #50. They were doing the same thing as the Patriots. Pointing at their own team when their team’s defense is on the field, but point at the other team when their team’s offense is on the field.
And even if they were just pointing at their own team, having a video camera on the field is illegal regardless of what it is recording.
:: Ben — 9/13/2007 @ 10:02 pm
The Evil Empire got away with one. The absurd part is that they STILL will have a first round pick next season, so what exactly did that accomplish? Oh boo hoo, they only have one first rounder now instead of two, what a tragedy.
I’m oh so sure the Pats fans will come out in drives complaining that this was way too harsh though, which will just make it even worse. I don’t even want to read the obligatory Simmons whinefest. Or gloatfest if he realizes his team got off unscathed.
I’ve already decided that if the Pats win the Super Bowl this season I’m boycotting NFL football indefinitely. There’s only so much garbage I can take. I thought about doing it THIS year thanks to all the criminals and thugs actually. It’s gotten to the point where sports isn’t sports anymore, it’s just another avenue for the corrupt and amoral to do their thing. It’s politics and organized crime with fast, strong guys running around on a field while people watch.
:: DolFan 316 — 9/13/2007 @ 10:02 pm
48, 51- I realize it doesn’t come close to proving anything. When FO looked at Pats 1st half vs. 2nd half to see any advantage, I wasn’t surprised that there was no change. I don’t see how you could possibly run in and find anything in the 12 minutes they have for half time.
On the other hand, when you have two games in the same season, an advantage like what people are *speculating* the Patriots might have gotten would show itself.
I found the stats interesting, they may or may not mean anything. As someone on another site pointed out, people always noted how when the Patriots never lost to the same team the second time around and all
:: Jesse — 9/13/2007 @ 10:03 pm
25:
Ludicrous? Hardly. They engaged in acts that were “unfair or outside the accepted tactics encountered in professional football” during the Jets game. Forfeit is one of the options in that case, at the commissioners discretion. Personally, I think the loss of one of two first-round picks (likely the later one–the Pats tend to do better than the Niners) is a lesser penalty than a loss to a divisional rival against whom they cheated. Remember, not only did the Pats cheat, but the Jets were wronged as wells. (sorry if this comes out double, I think the first got lost in Comment Limbo Land)
:: billsfan — 9/13/2007 @ 10:05 pm
My thought on this penalty was close to fair. For information, I’m a Cowboy fan and don’t really care about the Pats one way or another.
My thought on a fair penalty would have been meted in three ways.
1. Monetary. I agree that adding $250,000 to the Pats would have been good to make a nice $1mil but otherwise, I’m fine with this.
2. Draft - My thought was a little more in line with what happened to the T-Wolves. I would have docked them 3 1st round picks, one each for 2008, 2009, 2010. Of course, with as good as the Pats have been at stockpiling picks, they would have gotten back in to the 1st round but the message is sent.
3. Penalty for this year. I thought a one week suspension for Belichick, against the Jets, would have been appropriate. And I say week instead of game so he wouldn’t be allowed to be involved in the game planning for a week. He’s a freaking genius so this would be a nice penalty.
You put those three things together and you have something very fair and something that is harsh so it can be a detterent but it doesn’t make a mockery of the NFL by making it a 31 team league for an extended period of time (with Belichick permanent ban suggestions and other suggestions that have been passed around).
Just my thoughts… Feel free to call me an over-reactor or an under-reactor!
:: vijay — 9/13/2007 @ 10:06 pm
Goodell is the Metternich of sport.
:: BC Pat — 9/13/2007 @ 10:06 pm
#53 wins the thread.
:: T. Diddy — 9/13/2007 @ 10:06 pm
The Pats only kept two of their 2007 draft picks (I thought they were supposed to be a great drafting team?!), so in essence, Goodell took away what might represent half of their draft. Seems about right. He could have thrown on an extra 4th, 5th, ect, but honestly, would that have made it any better? He can’t forfeit the game-the Jets didn’t deserve that win either (single coverage on Moss, really?). He seemed to think the max fine was worse than the suspension. If the league really wants to punish the Emperor, just keep him out of the Hall (you listening writers who pontificate piously right now?). His name is mud, and I think that is a punishment. He’ll be hearing about this for the rest of his life. I think it was fair enough.
:: deshawn zombie — 9/13/2007 @ 10:07 pm
My issue with no game suspension here is that the league office has made this basically equivalent to more or less “administrative” style rule violations–like trying to circumvent the salary cap.
I think that characterization is completely off base. This was not an administrative violation. It was the management equivalent of shooting up steroids. We have every reason to believe that videotaping, just like ‘roids, is widespread. We also have no way to quantify just how much of a competitive advantage they give to players, just like ‘roids. Therefore, when a player takes performance enhancers that potentially provide him with an unfair on-the-field competitive advantage the league doesn’t slap him with a fine. That would be like buying a license to cheat. Rather, the league takes away his opportunities to compete.
I don’t see why a coach who gets busted cheating should be treated any differently. For my money they could have kept the fine. Four games and a lower pick would have been fair.
:: dave crockett — 9/13/2007 @ 10:07 pm
Re: #62
The big difference is that videotaping the other sideline doesn’t affect anyone’s health.
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 10:09 pm
When college teams get caught cheating, they’re often prohibited from competing for the national championship that year. That would have been harsh to do to the Patriots in this case, no playoffs for ‘07, but not unfair. The actual punishment seems maybe a little light to me. I’m neutral about the team, neither fan nor foe, but I think it’ll look pretty bad for the league if they win the Super Bowl.
:: Stop McQuilken All Over My Stuff! — 9/13/2007 @ 10:13 pm
The loss of a first-round pick is the bigger part of this penalty. Fines can be paid, but you can’t purchase a first-round pick. The penalty is a significant competitive disadvantage for the Patriots.
:: NF — 9/13/2007 @ 10:13 pm
Re #14: You draft value board geeks — what’s more total value, the first rounder a deep-into-the-playoff team would have, or the 2nd and 3rd round picks the typical non-playoff team would have?
Off-topic, but how deep you go in the playoffs short of the superbowl is irrelevant. The SB winner gets pick #32, the SB loser gets pick #31, and then the rest of the playoff teams get picks #21-30 based entirely on regular season record and not how far you make it in the playoffs. If you go 15-1 and tie for the best record in the league (with someone in your division, who wins the tiebreakers leaving you a wildcard), and then you lose in the wildcard round, you’re picking 30th. If you go 7-9, sneak into the playoffs, and lose in the NFCCG, then you’re picking 21st.
Anyway, back on the story, I have two questions.
First, how on earth is this a consistent punishment? A Dallas assistant coach breaks a rule by taking a “performance enhancing drug” (the quotes are because steroids would not actually enhance a COACH’S performance like they would a player’s), basically gains no advantage, and gets a 5-game suspension- a game longer than a player would have gotten under comparable circumstances, despite the fact that the drug would ACTUALLY ENHANCE THE PLAYER’S PERFORMANCE. The message- the league holds coaches to a higher standard than players. And now Belichick gets off without a suspension? Talk about mixed messages. Or, scratch that, there’s a message coming through loud and clear- if you’re not a marquee name, you’re expendable. If you’re a big name who is a big draw, the league won’t touch you because it might hurt their revenue.
Second question- whatever came of the suspicions that the Patriots were playing around with the radio signals?
:: Kibbles — 9/13/2007 @ 10:14 pm
Poor Wade Wilson. He does nothing to affect the team on field (and does something that only really affects him and his wife) and gets nailed for 5 games. Belichick is involved with something that clearly violates NFL rules and could affect the outcome of games for at least two years (from Mangini’s time as DC to now) and he gets no suspension.
Not only that, but Wilson was publically embarassed. He’s the real (unfortunate) loser here. I think everyone can agree that his punishment is out of line now and should be rectified by the league.
:: Randy S. — 9/13/2007 @ 10:14 pm
The patriots should minimize their penalty by winning the superbowl.
:: andrew a — 9/13/2007 @ 10:14 pm
The steroids comparison is just silly. Possessing steroids without a proper prescription is a violation of federal law. Using a camera at a football game, not so much.
I’m a Pats fan and I would much rather have the draft pick back than lose Emperor Billpatine for a few games. I think this will be an extremely effective deterrent.
:: tanner \'08 — 9/13/2007 @ 10:18 pm
The Jets have weighed in:
I used to think the media would go totally bonkers if the Patriots had met the Parcells-led Cowboys in the Superbowl.
But now imagine what would happen (and imagine the ratings!!) if the Patriots met the Jets in the AFC Championship Game.
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 10:20 pm
In a way I think this may help them… I felt one of Bellichek’s flaws was his ego. That he did this after last year, after the league warning, and against his old coach speaks volumes.
Maybe this can deflate it. That apology probably pained him, and even if he was back to stonewalling I think he’ll be a better coach in the long run for it.
:: andrew a — 9/13/2007 @ 10:22 pm
If you go 15-1 and tie for the best record in the league (with someone in your division, who wins the tiebreakers leaving you a wildcard), and then you lose in the wildcard round, you’re picking 30th. If you go 7-9, sneak into the playoffs, and lose in the NFCCG, then you’re picking 21st.
Not exactly. The Giants, who snuck into the playoffs with an 8-8 record last year, picked 20th, while the Broncos, who missed the playoffs with a 9-7 record, were scheduled to pick 21st (but swapped picks with the Jaguars).
Teams who make the playoffs pick behind teams with the same record who don’t make the playoffs, but non-playoff teams with more wins pick later. (Exception: had the Giants won two playoff games last year, they would have picked 21st - each playoff win is worth a half-win for tiebreaker purposes.)
:: Travis — 9/13/2007 @ 10:23 pm
wow. I never realized how much the pats are hated. Most of the people on here are insane. This whole deal is nothing…I’d bet at least ten other teams, if not more, do something similar. Not to mention, I can’t really see how its much of any advantage, since there are still keys to tell which call is on, and they can be changed at any time. Without the media hoopla, this wouldnt have resulted in ANYTHING. Grow up, people, and put things into perspective, instead of buying in to the inane hype.
:: dave thomas — 9/13/2007 @ 10:25 pm
Re 67 & 68,
Are you two honestly so naive that you think the Goodell was concerned about Wilson taking the PED himself? Really? I personally think the steroid hysteria is overblown, but if you have a policy to keep PED’s out of the hands of the players, you can’t very well let their coaches have them. The whole regime would become much harder to enforce.
:: tanner \'08 — 9/13/2007 @ 10:26 pm
Hey look! It’s ever homer argument ever fielded, in one convenient paragraph.
It’s against the rules, they knew it was against the rules, there was a memo sent out this summer promising harsh penalties for breaking this specific rule, and they did it anyway. Why would they take the risk if there was no benefit?
:: David — 9/13/2007 @ 10:27 pm
for all you whiners who are crying about a suspension, can you please explain to me exactly how this videogate justifies a suspension?
:: Jason — 9/13/2007 @ 10:27 pm
The only team that has had the Pats number in the Belichick/Brady era is the Broncos. I wonder if Shanahan knew the Pats MO and put out dummy calls to throw them off.
:: gasman — 9/13/2007 @ 10:28 pm
#66 Second question- whatever came of the suspicions that the Patriots were playing around with the radio signals?
Chris Mortensen is reporting that the NFL is starting an investigation into the entire Patriots film department. Mort indicated there could be more to the story down the road.
As much as we all want to get back to on-field discussion of actual football games, we could be seeing just the tip of the iceburg for Patriot Gate.
:: Don Booza — 9/13/2007 @ 10:28 pm
Easy to tell what a fair penalty would be. Patriot fans would feel like they were punched in the stomach and non-Patriot fans would say, ” Wow, a little harsh”. When I saw the TWolves lost like 5 1st rounders for jerking around with Joe Smith, I though ” harsh”. This penalty is meant to not bring too much attention that many people not in the NFL needed the Patriots to be good for subliminal reasons. Because remember, anyone who saw the tuck rule game KNEW it was a fumble and the NFL said ” Nope, no fumble”. We’ll just alter the reality right in front of your face and MAKE YOU accept what we want the reality to be. This Goodell penalty to Belichick is a farce, and it’s ironic he considers banning Vick for life for fighting dogs, and blows Belichick for basically altering the integrity of the whole sport. Yeah, I guess stealing signals isn’t helpful, so let’s just ignore this, move along, nothing to see here…
:: vikinghooper — 9/13/2007 @ 10:28 pm
re: #79
and blows Belichick for basically altering the integrity of the whole sport. Yeah, I guess stealing signals isn’t helpful,
Stealing signals isn’t against the rules, so there’s no punishment for doing it.
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 10:32 pm
1) It seems to me that fans of the Patriots should be more outraged over this than anyone else. After all the admiration we’ve felt for this team and its accomplishments over the last six years, it pisses me off that I now have to question to what degree it was a sham. If Belichick was directing this sort of cheating the whole time, he was ultimately cheating his own fans.
Yeah, I’ve read many comments around the web about how stealing signals confers only a small advantage. People seem to be forgetting all the “Look at how they always win the close games! That’s what makes a great team!” rhetoric that was playing like a broken record during their history-making 21 game winning streak. Well it’s in the close games that a small advantage becomes a decisive one.
2) I’m pleased at the thought of Belichick bleeding half a million over this fiasco. It’d be nicer if it were twice that, but evidently that’s the maximum, and in any case, no matter how rich the guy may be, you’re foolish if you don’t think he’s going to feel it, emotionally if nothing else.
3) The idea that “OMG Belichick should have been suspended!” is misguided. Suspend him and the team starts slipping, what will people say? The temp coach is no substitute — gosh, nobody could replace Belichick. If they tank on the season, it’ll seem just an ill-effect of the coaching disruption.
But leave Belichick in place and the team starts slipping slipping, what will people say? Justifiably or otherwise, it’ll be: HEY LOOK, HE CAN’T WIN WITHOUT CHEATING. Let his reputation now rest on this season. If the taping didn’t confer a decisive advantage, let’s make him at least generate some evidence of that.
Comparisons to the suspension of players are also foolish — it’s obvious whether or not a player is serving his suspension: Do you see him on the field? There’s no way to make sure a coach isn’t orchestrating things behind the scenes, whether or not he appears on the sidelines.
4) One thing I haven’t seen much discussion of anywhere: How do you think this will affect BB’s chances at the Hall? He was universally considered a lock before. Now I’m not even sure I’d vote for him.
5) I’m no less a fan of the Patriots than I’ve ever been, but I’m a bit less of a fan of Belichick. We’ll see what he has to say now that the ruling has come through.
:: Louis — 9/13/2007 @ 10:34 pm
Oh, and to the guy above who said poor Wade Wilson, he was just trying to get an erection. Wake up and smell reality, big guy. Wade Wilson was the fall guy so guys on the Cowboys could use HGH without some snot nosed DA outing him publicly a la Rodney Harrison. Wade Wilson is guilty of DISTRIBUTING HGH to Cowboys; Wade Wilson’s alibi might convince the lay public but medical facts unfortunately can’t be subverted by some numbskull’s subterfuge. I’m a Vikings fan and I am thankful that Wade disgraced the Cowboys and not the team he led.
:: vikinghooper — 9/13/2007 @ 10:36 pm
Aww man I didn’t realize the other thread died because I missed this one being posted.
In any case, I’m totally out of the over/under business and retiring on top after the 500 post prediction last round.
Finally, I’m reposting my comment at the end of the other thread because nobody will read it there:
Sure the penalty was a little light, but the NFL penalty didn’t matter to me personally. It doesn’t affect me if the Pats are fined 250k or 2 million.
The great thing is, the have been caught red handed and everyone knows that they’re guilty. I never have to take a patriots fan seriously again when they talk about how great their team is, how clutch Brady is, or how much of a genius Belichick is. Because they’re cheaters.
And that, my e-friends, is priceless.
:: cd6 — 9/13/2007 @ 10:38 pm
All in all this seams reasonable to me, maybe even a little harsher than I thought it would be. A first round draft pick lost will leave a mark. Maybe a 1 game suspension to go along with it was warranted, depending on what Belichick said in his defense.
However, I am not a Pats fan in the least, but someone needs to explain to me all of the uproar over the “integrity” of the game being besmirched, and Patriot wins deserving asterisks. Am I missing something, or is it not legal to steal an opponents signs? The Pats should (and were) punished for the method they used to do so (though it seems to me that what it boiled down to was the location of the camera, which really seems like splitting hairs to me).
Yeah, they broke a rule, and lke morons they did so in a blatant manner right after being reminded about the rule. They should be punished for doing so. But, I just can’t work up any outrage about it. There is football to be played on Sunday, lets move on.
:: MikeC — 9/13/2007 @ 10:39 pm
And to Patsfan #80, I’m glad you’re using your law degree to nitpik the fact that your coach was caught DEAD TO RIGHTS cheating, and you still have the shameless to not just humbly accept that your team CHEATED and got caught. No your idea is it’s all good. Typical Patriots fan; Manning is a choker, Patriots are gods. Now that we’ve been caught cheating, we’ll say it’s no big deal and we only did it once. The really infuriating thing is the headset malfunction in playoff games at Foxboro; I can’t believe Del Rio didn’t blow a head gasket, run out on the field, and wildly complain. Typical meek BS, couldn’t stand up to authority giving them the ” cellmate Earl ” treatment.
:: vikinghooper — 9/13/2007 @ 10:42 pm
I don’t like the ruling for two reasons:
1) If this is the way Goddell will penalize in the future (1st rounder if you make playoffs, 2nd & 3rd if you don’t), isn’t he in effect saying: “If your teams stinks, then cheating is a little less wrong than if your team is good”? That seems a dumb double-standard.
2) Money means squat. I don’t know BB’s pay, but I can’t imagine this will make any dent for him, and I would guess that Kraft will pay, or give him a raise to cover it.
Which, of course, brings up an interesting question that NE and anti-NE fans can debate without bias: If you’re Kraft, and there is no rule against it, do you pay BB’s fine, or “wink-wink” pay the fine by adding to his salary? I mean, what is Kraft’s right move here? I don’t mean the public move, which is of course to NOT pay for BB. I mean the private correct move.
Finally, I am not saying this is a harsh penalty, or that it’s a lenient one, I am just saying those two parts above seem wrong to me.
Oops, my real final statement is that folks who want to say that the loss of a 1st rounder isn’t a big deal because NE has two — that’s silly. Whatever the NE draft stockpile is at the present should have no bearing on the penalty. The penalty should not be tailored to a team — it should be a penalty that would be metted out to ANY team that cheated in this manner.
Full disclosure: I am a die-hard Colts fan.
:: Purds — 9/13/2007 @ 10:42 pm
Re: #84
I agree with your second paragraph and believe that penalty was what it was because Goodell didn’t believe the violation had a meaningful competitive effect. If he did believe, he would have come down much harder, given how he has been acting in other cases that have come before him.
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 10:43 pm
So as of right now, the Patriots have a total of nine draft picks in 2008 — two apiece in the first and third rounds, and one each in the second, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh rounds.
The picks to be surrendered would be the Patriot’s own, not the picks they acquired in trades
But as part of trades the Patriots made during the 2007 draft, the team had already acquired some extra draft choices — the San Francisco 49ers’ 2008 first-round draft pick, and the Oakland Raiders’ 2008 third-round draft pick.
(Stolen From Mike Reiss.Click my name for the original article.)
:: DWE — 9/13/2007 @ 10:43 pm
I’ve already decided that if the Pats win the Super Bowl this season I’m boycotting NFL football indefinitely.
Thanks for giving me a reason to root for the Patriots again.
This was not an administrative violation. It was the management equivalent of shooting up steroids.
No, because there are a lot worse ways to cheat in the NFL. In terms of overall damage to the sport, there aren’t many things above steroids (though there are a few, like fixing games).
This is the equivalent of a baseball player corking a bat.
:: Presto — 9/13/2007 @ 10:44 pm
Belichick is such an evil genius that he thought ahead enough to stockpile an extra 1st round draft choice, in the event he might be fined for stealing signals. Now that’s f#$$ing brilliant!
:: bob — 9/13/2007 @ 10:45 pm
BB is lucky I’m not the commish.
I would have summarily banned his ass from the league forever, and would have declared all wins during his tenure null and void.
:: Kyle S — 9/13/2007 @ 10:46 pm
Re: #86
I agree that the conditional nature of the draft pick penalty makes no sense. Why isn’t it a 1st-rounder no matter what or a 2nd+3rd no matter what. Penalizing you less if you you’re worse makes is bizarre.
As for the fine issue and if Kraft will try to work around it, I’m actually going in the other direction and wondering if this will cause Kraft to refuse to renew BB’s contract when it expires. Kraft loves loves loves positive public image so this whole thing must gall him to high heaven.
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 10:47 pm
As a Jets fan, I think the penalty is both appropriate and timely. To suggest the Pats should forfeit the game is silly (even though it would make *me* happy), as are the even more severe proposals. The only thing I think could be fairly added is a 1-2 game suspension for Billy-boy.
:: bubba0077 — 9/13/2007 @ 10:49 pm
“Because remember, anyone who saw the tuck rule game KNEW it was a fumble and the NFL said â€? Nope, no fumbleâ€?.”
Yay! more about the tuck rule.
Here is the actual tuck rule from the 2006 NFL rulebook.
Rule 3 section 21 article 3 page 12.
Note 1: When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional movement
forward of his hand starts a forward pass. If a Team B player contacts the passer or
the ball after forward movement begins, and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward
pass is ruled, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player.
Note 2: When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward
movement of his hand starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the
ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the
ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble.
Note 3: If the player loses possession of the ball while attempting to recock his arm, it is a
fumble.
I realize emotions are running high with the latest Pats news but for the love of god can we let the tuck rule go?
:: coldbikemessenger — 9/13/2007 @ 10:49 pm
Re:81
Count me as another that thought many Patriot fans would be seriously ticked that their coach would do such a dumbass thing and risk tarnishing the reputation of the franchise.
It will be interesting to see if Mr.Kraft has any punishment for his coach, Winning is great, Winning at all cost’s and bringing into question the integrity of the franchise is simply not worth it.
:: Scott — 9/13/2007 @ 10:49 pm
Alternative punishment:
1) Belichick suspended four games - must sit in Goodell’s office for duration.
2) Belichick to wear a Reebok designed suit for remainder of the season. Grey hoodie auctioned off for a charity of the NFL’s choosing.
3) Belichick to bear/man hug Mangini during Pats-Jets rematch. Must hold hug for 30 seconds and whisper sweet nothings/apology to the other (man)genuius.
:: chip — 9/13/2007 @ 10:51 pm
As a New Englander and long-time Patriots fan, I am deeply disturbed by the implications that this scandal has for the reputation of the franchise. I can’t really imagine that the videotaping would confer a substantial advantage or that it has gone on a lot over the whole history of the Patriots’ Super Bowl run - how could a guy with a video camera standing on the sidelines go unnoticed for all that time? On the other hand, I never would have imagined that the Patriots would be so foolish in the first place even in a single game, and especially not against a team coached by one of their former coaches.
At this point, coming off of the electrifying excitement of the Patriots’ first game of the season, I feel completely deflated. I don’t think I could enjoy watching the team compete with the stigma that will now hang over their past success. The value of their players and the integrity and intelligence of their on-field success has been immeasurably degraded. It doesn’t really matter at this point if Belichick is the “best” coach or if Brady is a great player - the cheater label means that they fundamentally lack integrity (whether or not other teams cheat in the same way or would do so, it is the stigma that really makes the difference at this point). Do other people feel this way? I would imagine now that Kraft will have trouble filling the stands, that season ticket holders will be demanding their money back, etc. In my opinion, the emphasis that the league has placed on this incident burns a violent stain through the entire legacy of the franchise.
:: Josh A.H. — 9/13/2007 @ 10:52 pm
#83 dude, your last two paragraphs are priceless!
:: Frankie — 9/13/2007 @ 10:54 pm
If I were Kraft, I would fine Belichick another $500,000.
I don’t know how one can gauge the economic effect of such an embarrassing episode at this time, but it’s got to cost the Patriots a significant amount over the long term.
:: Waverly — 9/13/2007 @ 10:55 pm
Re: #85
Enjoying that high horse?
In any event, the person I was replying to claimed that “stealing signs” was “blowing the integrity of the entire sport”.
Since stealing signs isn’t even against the rules, it’s hardly “blowing the integrity of the entire sport.”
Two other things. First, if you’d bothered to look, instead of ASSuming, you would have seen I have always said the Patriots broke the anti-taping rule and deserved to be punished. Second, the Commissioner obviously didn’t think this was “blowing the integrity of the entire sport” or the sentance would have been a helluva lot higher. Personally, I’ll trust the judgement of the NFL Commissioner over some random anonymous Pats-hater.
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 10:57 pm
I’ve linked a shot of Jets cameraman (just to the left of the 1st down marker) pointing his camera across the field to right where the Patriots defense coaches should be. Unless the Jets have some strange explanation for this, its looking like they will be looking at some fines and loss of draft picks as well.
:: Ben — 9/13/2007 @ 10:57 pm
The only suitable punishment, in my view, would be to make Belicheck wear a slinky black evening gown, complete with over-the-top ear rings, a pearl necklace, heels, a matching handbag to complete the ensemble, and instead of that laminated play sheet, he has to cover his lips when he speaks with one of those gigantic hand fans that old ladies use when the bingo hall gets too hot.
All that being said, how much of a punishment is this? The Patriots still have a first round pick, the teams portion of the fine will be paid by its season ticket holders, Belichecks fine will probably be paid by Kraft, and he’ll get his money from the season ticket holders.
:: Adam Gretz — 9/13/2007 @ 11:00 pm
PatsFan:
I agree that the anonymous NE hater should be ignored, but I am not so sure I’d put my faith in the commish. He has vested interests, and they may conflict with the truth.
For example, do you think he really wants to uncover a story that the Pats used this illegal taping system in their SB runs/wins? (I am not saying they did, or that it would matter, I am just saying I bet he’d rather NOT find out that story, and that if he can avoid looking into it, he might.)
:: Purds — 9/13/2007 @ 11:01 pm
Count me as another that thought many Patriot fans would be seriously ticked that their coach would do such a dumbass thing and risk tarnishing the reputation of the franchise.
We are ticked, or haven’t you been paying attention. But we’re also ticked at the insinuations that we are somehow personally diminished by this, that we are implicated. We are not. We root for our team like everyone else. We are
ticked at calls for the coach to be banned, or the team to lose all its victories for the last five years.
They got punished, it was a fair punishment. Going forward, I will continue to root for them.
Hell, I lived through Victor Kiam, 1-15, Zeke Mowatt and Linda Olson. The Patriots survived that, they’ll survive this.
I would imagine now that Kraft will have trouble filling the stands, that season ticket holders will be demanding their money back, etc. In my opinion, the emphasis that the league has placed on this incident burns a violent stain through the entire legacy of the franchise.
Nope. Are season ticket holders in Atlanta asking for their money back? In St. Louis? Tennessee? It isn’t the end of the world. There is no scarlet letter.
:: Presto — 9/13/2007 @ 11:01 pm
Nope. Are season ticket holders in Atlanta asking for their money back? In St. Louis? Tennessee? It isn’t the end of the world. There is no scarlet letter.
Atlanta Journal-Constitution, August 22.
:: Travis — 9/13/2007 @ 11:05 pm
Belichick statement per Reiss:
“I accept full responsibility for the actions that led to tonight’s ruling. Once again, I apologize to the Kraft family and every person directly or indirectly associated with the New England Patriots for the embarrassment, distraction and penalty my mistake caused. I also apologize to Patriots fans and would like to thank them for their support during the past few days and throughout my career.
“As the Commissioner acknowledged, our use of sideline video had no impact on the outcome of last week’s game. We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress.
“Part of my job as head coach is to ensure that our football operations are conducted in compliance of the league rules and all accepted interpretations of them. My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and Bylaws was incorrect.
“With tonight’s resolution, I will not be offering any further comments on this matter. We are moving on with our preparations for Sunday’s game.”
:: Jonathan — 9/13/2007 @ 11:05 pm
90 - no, an evil genius coach would be like one from the 60’s on Lombardi’s staff who was frozen for 40 years and thawed out and employed the methods from back then to take over the world…. of the nfl.
Fortunately, Pete Rozelle had a charismatic young intern who was also frozen and will administer old-style justice in stoping this evil mastermind.
… and we will win the superbowl again, thus dooming the ratings, unless the NFL pays us the sum of ONE HALF MILLION DOLLARS….
starring Bill Belichek as Coach Evil
Roger Goodell as Comissioner Powers
Scott Pioli as Number Two
Eric Mangini as Scott Evil
Romeo Crenel as Mustafa
Steve Belichek as Nigel Powers
Debby as Frau Farbissina
Robert Kraft as Goldmember
Charlie Weiss as Fat Bastard
:: andrew — 9/13/2007 @ 11:06 pm
Re#103 makes a good point. I’m not sure the commish really wants to know the extent of this incident. The more they uncover, the worse it might be for the long term image of the league. However, if a contingent of other owners are sufficently upset about this, the commish may have no choice but to peel through all the layers of this onion.
:: Frankie — 9/13/2007 @ 11:11 pm
I liked a suggestion I saw on the ESPN threads (I know, I was shocked by the idea I could get anything of value there). And maybe it’ll get those Pats’ fans who keep saying it’s no big deal to think about it for a while:////////////////
Maybe the best punishment is that every other team should be allowed to use a camera and radio signals to make adjustments against the Patriots this year. Those of you that don’t think that this gives a competitive advantage should be fine with that.
:: FJ — 9/13/2007 @ 11:11 pm
Re: #90
Hubris intact.
:: Purds — 9/13/2007 @ 11:13 pm
#101: not a pats or jets fan, but I can’t see squat. Are you sure it’s not an NFL Films guy? Those guys are all over the sidelines during games.
#82: Are you on dope? Wade Wilson is being suspended for buying HGH … in 2004! before he worked for the cowboys, or the bears. I suggest you get yourself an 8th grade education before re-entering polite society.
:: dbt — 9/13/2007 @ 11:13 pm
109- Belichick would hire 15 guys off the street and have 14 of them giving dummy signals. It doesn’t work when you know it’s being done to you. The advantage comes when the other team doesn’t realize you’re doing it.
:: Jesse — 9/13/2007 @ 11:14 pm
#82 - Wilson was WITH THE BEARS when the HGH incident occurred…is everyone an idiot these days? Jesus…at least read the basic facts of the story.
:: dave thomas — 9/13/2007 @ 11:14 pm
OOPS!
I meant Re #106:
Hubris intact.
(Sorry for slandering you, bob)
:: Purds — 9/13/2007 @ 11:15 pm
Guys, if you really wanted to punish Belichick, you should force him to utter the soul searching novella that Peter King suggested he say.
As for being ashamed, I’ve already ordered my “New England Football - We’re Watching YOU” T Shirt! (check the link)
And finally, Belichick just issued a statement that said he will offer no further comment. The writhing masses of sanctimoniousness will just have to writhe. This put a real smile on my face.
:: Vern — 9/13/2007 @ 11:16 pm
I mean its not like he cheated at fantasy football…
:: andrew a — 9/13/2007 @ 11:17 pm
Anyone have a link to the full, actual press release issued by the Commish? Even NFL.com only has a link to an AP wire article which only quotes pieces of it.
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 11:22 pm
I realize I’m really late to the party with this, but I had an interesting conversation with a Colts season ticket holder today. I apologize for the hearsay, but I found it interesting and maybe someone can Google up confirmation.
He told me that Bill Polian banned all on-field cameras for last year’s AFC Championship Game. He also wondered if Polian’s altercation with a Jets official was related to videotaping signals. I seem to remember there was a camera involved, but I may be incorrect.
(Full disclosure: Colts fan here.)
Oh yeah. The punishment seems fair. A first-round pick is a pretty high price.
:: Todd S. — 9/13/2007 @ 11:22 pm
By jove, I finally figured it out. Remember Mutant League Football? The game that involved all manner of cheating plays like “Bribe Ref”?
Its coming back, baby! And THAT is why Bill Bellichek’s name is not in Madden. he’s the covery boy for the Mutant League Football reborn! and about damn time too, that was one hell of a game…
:: andrew a — 9/13/2007 @ 11:23 pm
The AP article does say Goodell believed Kraft didn’t know about it (Goodell justified fining the team on Belichick’s position of essentially director of football ops, and therefore his actions could be imputed to the team, which is reasonable, IMHO).
:: PatsFan — 9/13/2007 @ 11:25 pm
wow, for those who think the patsies past achievements are not in doubt/will not be questioned, check out one of the headlines on Yahoo.com:
“Eagles: Did Pats cheat in Super Bowl?”
:: Rob — 9/13/2007 @ 11:27 pm
I’m starting a new conspiracy theory:
Goodell gave Belichick a light punishment because Belichick has a incriminating video tape of Goodell cheating on his wife or his taxes or something like that.
Everyone, if you would kindly repeat this as fact and spread it across the internets, I would be greatly obliged.
:: cd6 — 9/13/2007 @ 11:29 pm
WEEI had a few callers talking about this mysterious Jets cameraman (#101 referenced).
He’s in the top right of the photo (I liked to it too) just to the left of the down marker. He’s recording the field.
I don’t know how that could be cheating, but I thought there were no video people allowed on the field other than official crews. Maybe he’s got a reasonable explanation. It seems absolutely absurd that the Jets would call out the Patriots on the same day they were doing the same thing, but life is stranger than fiction.
:: JJcruiser — 9/13/2007 @ 11:32 pm
121:
Sheldon is a moron.
The Eagles are the most blitz-happy team in the league. The Patriots are the most screen-happy team in the league, especially under Weiss.
Put two and two together.
:: JJcruiser — 9/13/2007 @ 11:34 pm
#111: NFL Film guys wear an orange vest. Network cameramen wear yellow or green vests. From the multiple screencaps that have been starting to pop up, it is clear he isn’t wearing either of those.
:: Ben — 9/13/2007 @ 11:35 pm
#118: So now it’s official: the Pats really CAN’T win without cheating! Thank you a hundred times for that post, I loved it.
Yup, sure is funny how badly the Pats played in the second half of THAT game, isn’t it?
This is going to be the Cheatriots’ version of Appalachian State. As it should be.
:: DolFan 316 — 9/13/2007 @ 11:36 pm
BTW as a DolFan, it sure wouldn’t break my heart to see the Jets get punished too. Hell, at this point I think the NFL should look into the Bills’ on field camera activities as well!
No wonder my team keeps finishing last, they’re in the cheatingest division in football!
:: DolFan 316 — 9/13/2007 @ 11:39 pm
BTW when I went to yahoo.com I didn’t see anything about te Eagles, Cheatriots or football. But I did see this: “20 million fans bid for Led Zeppelin comeback tickets.”
Forget the implications concerning the integrity of the game for a minute, THAT’s frightening.
:: DolFan 316 — 9/13/2007 @ 11:42 pm
Re. 109:
The problem I have with giving all other teams permission to tape the Pats is that he is in essence breaking his own rule to let other teams have revenge on a team. I don’t think that’s an action that would reflect well on the commissioner in the long run. It strikes me as petty.
I personally was in favor of suspending Belicheck, not taking away draft picks. The fine is fine. I think this is a case where Belicheck consciously made the decision to break the rules, and responsibility for that starts and ends with him.
As others have said, there are reports that the entire film department is under investigation and all film will be looked at. Good. This should prove exactly what the Pats were up to. If they find lots of illegal film, I hope the league comes down on Belicheck *hard*. If all the allegations are true, a lifetime ban would probably be appropriate, because he would have put such a large stain on the integrity of the game that is simply disgusting. As for punishing the organization, I think that would depend on who knew what. If Kraft and most of the team was ignorant, I’d say a fine and maybe one or two more draft picks (next year’s first and second?). If it was very widespread, then the sanctions should be much larger.
And yes, I’m a Pats fan, and I’m pissed at what has happened. Breaking the rules is breaking the rules, and they deserve to be punished for it.
:: Christina — 9/13/2007 @ 11:43 pm
112 - That’s true, but you really only have to know who the defensive leader is and see who he’s looking at. And you could force them to be in different parts of the field.
Otherwise, THEN you bring the full brunt of the law down and ban them from the playoffs if they do something so blatant to circumvent the penalty.
F
:: FJ — 9/13/2007 @ 11:44 pm
129 - But there’s a certain amount of justice in their experiencing what they’ve done to others. Plus it would be considered fair by ALL fans (just as long as the Patriots didn’t circumvent it).
I’ll admit it isn’t the most likely of punishment, but, then, we could see if there really IS a difference in recording the signals which a LOT of patriots fans say it ISN’T.
Plus, it has the added benefit that the Patriots’ fans who say it’s no big deal can’t argue against that punishment since “it’s no big deal.”
F
:: FJ — 9/13/2007 @ 11:49 pm
Another point on all of this, that you rabid Pats haters should keep in mind (btw, Im a Cowboys fan, not a Pats fan) is what is to come…teams now know they can get rid of their arch-rivals first round pick for outing them on shady business….be prepared for a plethora of such outings in the near future…congrats to the Jets, and Goodell….you just made the NFL into MLB…
Not that I dont think they should have been punished….but most people are too bone dumb and lazy to learn the facts (as evinced by the number of people going on about the “cheating” of stealing signs…) and will (as with steroids in MLB) see the league as tainted.
:: dave thomas — 9/13/2007 @ 11:49 pm
I do like the fact that this continues to be investigated. I said somewhere (trust me, I did, it’s just buried in the last XP regarding this) that people were going to initially say ‘oh, no big deal” and then further investigation would show that it indeed was a much bigger deal than anyone thought. I’m no prophet, that’s just standard operating procedure for modern day Scandals Du Jour. It always happens like this. Dogfighting ring anyone?
:: DolFan 316 — 9/13/2007 @ 11:50 pm
#132: I say bring it on. My team’s so terrible they can’t possibly be outed as cheaters. If anything THEY should be doing the outing!
Didn’t think of that, did ya?
:: DolFan 316 — 9/13/2007 @ 11:52 pm
Belicheat got off way too easy. He doesn’t care about being fined 500K. He should be suspended for a year. That would send a message to coaches. And perhaps their super bowl wins should be invalidated. Everyone knows they’re meaningless anyway, so why not make it official on the record books?
Aaron is wrong when he says people won’t remember or care about this in the future. He mentioned Steelers of the 70s, but whenever anyone hears about that team, they think, “steroids.” In the future, whenever anyone hears about the Patriots of the early 21st century, they will think, “cheaters.”
Luckily, I think the Patriots will eventually get what they deserve. Like LT says, the Patriots live by the philosophy, “If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying.” Cheating is what they’re all about. They won’t be able to stop doing it. And you can bet that next time, they’ll be caught. Hopefully, they won’t be given a slap on the wrist.
:: ChargersFan — 9/13/2007 @ 11:55 pm
Re. 131:
I agree. It would be fair, in an “eye for an eye” sort of way. I was just stating reasons for why I thought that would be inappropriate for the commissioner to do because of how it would reflect on him, not because it was unfair.
:: Christina — 9/13/2007 @ 11:57 pm
The penalty seems harsh, but relatively fair. Everyone who think that they should disband the Patriots, ban Belichick from football, or ritually sacrifice his oldest child to the Malaysian demon goddess Ruthura should just relax and say to themselves, “it’s only a game, it’s only a game, it’s only a game…
:: throughthelookingglass — 9/13/2007 @ 11:58 pm
#134: unless they’re equally terrible when it comes to cheating.
:: Jonathan — 9/13/2007 @ 11:58 pm
#134…that reply doesn’t even make sense. I didn’t say every team cheats, for one, two, you can suck and still cheat, and three, I was addressing the publicity impact on the league, which apparently you don’t care about (even though you’re happy to dump on the Pats for it. HMM. lol)
:: dave thomas — 9/13/2007 @ 11:58 pm
#135: Damn right, playa. What goes around comes around. It might take a while, but karma always gets her man. Or her team in this case.
:: DolFan 316 — 9/13/2007 @ 11:59 pm
I didn’t read the comments, so if somebody else already said this, my apologies:
It could be worse… F1 fined McLaren Racing 100 MILLION dollars for spying…
:: masocc — 9/14/2007 @ 12:05 am
I agree with some of the posts when they say that it is unfair that one coach gets suspended 5 games for HGH, and BB gets a fine for this.
But has anyone considered that this is one of those NFL secrets that everybody does in one form or another?
I imagine in the off season that they probably gave everyone a warning, the Pats ignored it and this is a reminder to the rest of the league. If this were the case then Goodell is sending a message that no coaches are above the law.
Just a thought, it makes more sense this way.
:: Ryan Harris — 9/14/2007 @ 12:10 am
“Second question- whatever came of the suspicions that the Patriots were playing around with the radio signals?”
kibble, it was completely unfounded, like 90% of the other accusations in here. Just more hate-drivel.
:: Rich Conley — 9/14/2007 @ 12:15 am
Dolfan, while you’re sitting up o