You guys both picked Oregon over USF? Even with Dixon being out?

Yeah, I'm a little surprised at that as well. They're going to be using a rookie QB because Dixon and Leaf are out. Oregon fell apart in the last few games and I don't like them at all today.
Line on FSU-Kentucky quickly dropped. Bodog has it at 7.5 now.

hey, maybe they knew what they were saying. :D South Florida can't seem to figure out Oregon's offense.

Just wanted to say that the Sun Bowl was the worst production I have ever seen on broadcast television. The graphics on the screen were constantly wrong, the announcers kept making odd mistakes, neither the people responsible for the screen nor the announcers could get the penalties right, the announcers didn't know what quarter it was, the announcers said "3 yard pickup" when the ball-carrier was stopped at the LOS, etc.

Game has featured a ton of penalties, including one play where three dead ball personal fouls were called. Of course, CBS didn't show what happened. CBS also showed Oregon's first 2 point conversion from a weird angle, because they apparently though it would be kicked.

USF and Oregon tie the Sun Bowl record for penalties, with a minute and 2 quarters of the first half to spare.

This MAC ref crew working the Sun Bowl must've met beforehand and decided to call a tough game - unfortunately they're having trouble with the line between tough and excessive. A lot of those penalties seemed very borderline.

And yeah, the announcers have called '3 yard gain' on several running plays where it was clearly 0-1 yards. Including one where they rightly described a '1 yard gain' then 'corrected' themselves with their usual 3 yard call.

Gotta love the scripted pieces bleeding through multiple big 3rd down plays too. Just bad production all around.

Crow does a body good.

RE: 4

Oops, I meant "with a minute still to go in the first half."

Game has gotten ugly in the 2nd half. Oregon now up 39-14.

Oregon is running away with it now. A month off does wonders sometimes.

Wow. OK State pulls a Belichick by going for it on 4th and goal with under a minute left when already up by 15 for no apparent reason. I really hate this new trend of running up the score.

At least Indiana responded with a TD at the end to save a little face.

Now this is one of those little "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" moments.

Auburn gets a long run to the 1-foot line or so, but is tackled (they score on the next play).

The announcers point out that "All he had to do" was stretch his arm out across the goal line while he was being tackled.

How often throughout the season have we seen a player try to stretch the ball across the goal line in those situations, and fumble? I bet every single ESPN football crew has seen that at least once this season. And whenever that happens, the response is always something like "Well, you know, you can't take that risk. It isn't 4th down, and you just can't afford that fumble - you have to hold onto the ball."

Other than that, it's been an entertaining game - just those little announcing things always irk me for some reason.

How are the different divisions doing? How are they doing for FEI and Sagarin predictions?

The Wisconsin coaching staff is putting their guys in terrible positions. The defense is telegraphing every run blitz, etc. and Ainge is changing his call with time to spare.

The Badger D needs to force TN to work it down the field.

TD for TN.

I am flabbergasted that Hodge is back in the lineup at LB. He's clueless out there and has been all season.

2 fumbles and a bad penalty. Yet tied 7-7.

Facemask by TN on kick return and then helmet to helmet with Donovan already in the end zone.

Glad to see TN worked on its cheap shots.

Wow. Stupid call by TN. Shoving it down WI's throat and they do some whacko bunch formation resulting in a fumble recovered by WI.

Right now playing straight up the TN offense is moving the ball easily.

MVC refs. From past experience this league has truly horrendous officials. I expect both coaches to be going nuts at various times.

Sigh. All season coaches have been telling the left tackle to not lunge. So he lunges and the TN end runs by him for the easy sack.

Cripes......

Another stupid defensive call. 3rd and 11, WI blitzes and easy pitch and catch for TN.

Chop block by TN. Guess this is their "thing" to try and injure folks.

Nice team there.

A month to prepare and the pass blocking is still dreadful. This isn't any "SEC speed" nonsense. Just guys not moving their feet properly.

WI needs to just pound the run. Donovan is getting killed pass attempts and they need to keep the TN offense on the sideline.

17- Stop. You're hardly objective.

As a Vols fan I'm happy to be playing Wisconsin. It's a fresh matchup against a top team, and a fitting end to the Ainge era. Though I'd rather UT be in the more traditional Cotton Bowl vs Mizzou.

Hard to believe 365 days have passed since last year's Fiesta Bowl, when all I wanted was a competitive game- and we all wound up with an all-time classic. I feel differently about this year's Sugar Bowl, as I want UGA to knock the **** out of Hawaii and end the "Hawaii is getting shafted" talk.

Tyler Donovan's Mom is hot. That makes it official- I'm old.

Happy 2008, everyone.

So they call a rollout and he catches a cleat and gets whacked to boot. His knee is badly hurt.

Nice work coaches. Team has had success running the ball so get pass happy and get your qb mauled. Very clever.

Geez........

Kevin:

They just reported an official apologizing for missing one helmet hit and the reporter said he heard the other one.

WI is overmatched so far and it also true that TN has been guilty of multiple cheap shots. Two called, two not.

Do you deny the facemaske? The obvious chop block? The reporter is lying?

Again, TN looks to be the far better team. But their approach stinks to this point.

23- I just think you're overstating things.

Of course, as I type this Donovan just got clubbed in the head, complete with an unsportsmanlike call.

C'mon kevin. Explain the arm to the head. I await your thoughtful rationalization explaining this action.

Arkansas just had some of the dumbest coaching ever.

Gerry:

Nah, the WI coaching gameplanning to get their qb assassinated is right up there.

I just want to see a hard-fought game. If WI retaliates against this thuggish behavior I will puke.

Badger,

Arkansas had 4th and 2 from the Missouri 38 yard line. They put the punt team out. They then shift to a formation that makes it clear that they are faking the punt. The ball is snapped, they had the ball off to Reggie Fish who easily sweeps right for 5 yards.

Then the refs get on the mike to say that prior to the snap, Arkansas called timeout.

So they put the punt team back out. Again they shift to the same formation, and run the same basic play except instead of handing it to the wideout, they fake the handoff and try to run up the middle. Only Mizzou was expecting it and pretty much hit the guy as he was faking the handoff.

The timeout was inexplicable. Then trying to run a fake punt immediately after having just done so was just as inexplicable.

WI needs to run the ball and hope Ainge makes a mistake when on defense. Blitzing has been futile.

And where is Lance Smith? Guy has the speed to break one.

Gerry:

Good grief.

I can understand why TN fans shake their heads sometimes. The playcalls early and then late to end the half were weird.

That's pathetic. You have to call timeout 2 minutes into the half because the coaches take too long in getting the play to the huddle.

Ah, now I get it. Tackling by going for the head is an SEC thing. Guy goes high against Henne and someone else tries it on Manningham.

Cripes......

According to Todd Blackledge, Michigan vs. Florida will come down to which QB, TB and #1 WR plays better. Ya think?

The Razorbacks have had their chances today, but will go into the half down 14, and are in grave danger of falling out of the game completely.

Wolverines running a spread offense, often going five wide. Dogs and cats, living together.

Did I miss the statement that WI is not allowed to run the ball or play Lance Smith? If BB is trying to "prove" something it's too weird for me to graps.

Michigan goes 93 yards for the TD. 7-0 stink bears.

Two stops by WI on defense. They have GOT to do something on offense. TN has gone into a stupor on O.

Normally playcalling is a fan complaint with little merit.

But Wisconsin going pass happy is bizarre. Flat out bizarre.

RUN THE BALL. Please. R-U-N T-H-E B-A-L-L.

Geez. Barry has to be fuming right now....

UVA ties Texas Tech at 7.

Off topic a bit- UCLA hiring Rick Neuheisel made way too much sense. I have no idea why it took so long. He has a great resume, and is an alum.

Similarly, Terry Bowden makes too much sense at West Virginia. So why has it not happened?

The NCAA should pass a rule stating that schools cannot contact another team's coach until after all of the bowls have ended. It's ridiculous, for example, that West Virginia lost it's coach before it's biggest game of the year.

Arkansas attempts an onside kick to open the second half and fails. Mizzu takes over at midfield up 14-0. This could get ugly.

WI runs the ball on every play but one and gets a FG.

Gee, run the ball. How novel...

It just got ugly.

Can I just say how much it really, really sucks not having TV reception on January 1? My dish broke while I was out of town over Xmas, and I couldn't get a repair guy until tomorrow. Well, maybe this year I'll do something productive with my Jan. 1 instead of spending all day watching football... nah, that won't happen, but it could.

Sorry Tom.

But you can't hook up some rabbit ears?

Sigh. Nice job guys. Another 3rd and long converted by TN.

Lizards tie the Capital Bowl at 7. Tom, get thee to a sports bar.

2 blitzes, 2 big gains.

That's about 6 times today that TN got first downs on WI blitzes.

Cripes coaches.

That was a bizarre series of plays for Tennessee. After moving efficiently inside the Badger 15, they pull Ainge and go into a Wild Hog offense with the RB in the shotgun. After three unsuccessful plays, Wisconsin blocks a FG.

Thank you TN coaches. 2 straight running plays against a defense that is sorry against the pass lead to a FG attempt which is blocked.

Sorry, Tom. I'd actually run out and get a room. I'm serious- I live for January 1.

As a Vols fan I'm grateful for Erik Ainge, but he's been a disappointment. After his 2004 season I saw him as a potential Heisman winner and #1 overall draft pick. ESPN's Todd McShay has him as a middle-to-late draft pick, but I don't even see that. My guess is that today will be the last time we see him play.

Apparently the coaches are trying to outstupid one another.

You run the ball pretty well and try a pass on 4th and short.

Clear fumble by TN but foot out of bounds by WI guy.

Too bad...

Lizards give Stink Bears a first down inside the five with a spectacularly stupid personal foul on Spikes.

They're playing AC/DC's "Hell's Bells" over the stadium's PA system during the review.

I don't get it.

And Michigan converts for the TD. Tied at 14.

Wisconsin might miss all those wasted timeouts.

WI had 1001 chances.

And to lose to scum.
Sigh.....

Now I want Tennessee to play dirty, just to get more of a rise out of BadgerT.

INT...game over.

Nice game by Wisconsin, and a gutsy performance by Donovan. It sucks that I have to wait eight months before seeing the Vols play again.

I think we're seeing why Florida is the "best team not in a BCS bowl" -- they have an atrocious pass defense.

And the world just ended -- Mike Hart lost a fumble.

The WI coaching staff helped lose this game. Took them 40 minutes to remember they have a running back and the inability to get plays called when TIME HAS BEEN STOPPED was pathetic.

Kevin, I really don't understand. TN was flagged repeatedly for personal foul infractions and could have been assessed several more. Why do you want your team to intentionally hurt opposing players? It's not enough to win? People have to leave the field on a stretcher?

That's really twisted....

Nice job by Florida's safety to stay home on the throwback pass -- obviously well coached to stay on assignment.

Michigan has run more trick plays today than I think they did the entire season.

For the first time during BB's tenure I declare emphatically that Barry would have this game. TN has playmakers but is still flawed. Barry's "bend but don't break" approach would have forced TN to string plays together as opposed to big chunks on failed blitzes.

And Barry would have run the ball 1000 times.

Barry Alvarez would have "won" this game.

Sorry for the typo of omission.

60- BadgerT, you're putting words into my mouth. I never said any of that stuff.

I just think your ratio of complaints about dirty play to actual dirty play is way off.

"Now I want Tennessee to play dirty, just to get more of a rise out of BadgerT."

Your words.

Wisconsin lost this game. But nobody can tell me that Tennessee is worthy of anyone's admiration. Those were shoddy actions on any football field.

And note I didn't gripe about the late hit no-call at the end of the game. Nobody can deny that by the intent and spirit of the rule that should NOT have been called. WI has certainly been guilty of that in other games and deservedly penalized.

"Why do you want your team to intentionally hurt opposing players? It’s not enough to win? People have to leave the field on a stretcher?"

Your words, not mine. And this concludes the pissing match, at least from my end.

I don't have any real data, but doesn't it seem like retiring coaches go out with a bang in the bowls? Offhand Osborne, Alvarez, and Bill McCartney went out with a bang. Is Lloyd Carr next?

Tim Tebow is freakin' amazing. In two years he may be in the conversation for "Greatest College Player Ever".

Tarrant,

"How often throughout the season have we seen a player try to stretch the ball across the goal line in those situations, and fumble?"

Add one more as it just happened to Hart.

Chris Long might be as good as advertised. That kid is everywhere.

Harvin is on a different level.

As a neutral observer, this Michigan-Florida game is a lot of fun. Ah, Jan 1st, what a great day.

If Florida loses, Charlie Strong is the goat for me. How many times can you get burned and still leave your guys in single coverage in the back?

Congratulations to Michigan.

Though I doubt I will be so lucky, I am hopeful that today's games at least take some of the wind out of the goofs who bleat about "SEC speed".

Unlike last year Wisconsin's offensive line wasn't overwhelmed and Michigan clearly had the chops to go toe to toe.

I was kind of hoping Illinois would win this game. Then they let Jim Belushi introduce the squad. Now? Fuck Illinois.

This could be a long afternoon for Illinois.

Nice somersault into the end zone by the USC wideout.

Of course, if I were Pete Carroll I'd throw the kid out of the game. How can a player commit a premeditated act that he KNOWS is going to cost his team fifteen yards?

In the Michigan/Florida game why didn't Meyer keep a back in to block on Florida's last drive? They have one of the best QBs in college football and seem content to let him get flattened by blitzers coming from two directions on (seemingly) every snap rather than give him a cat in hell's chance of getting the ball downfield by having a guy in the backfield to pick up the blitz. They had two and a half minutes and should have been able to use the middle of the field on intermediate routes to at least try to get into scoring range before emptying the backfield and exposing the QB. Many a great offensive mind will expound in great length about how the most important thing about a two minute drill is to pick up the first down in two goes max. After that you are moving and can change things up to throw off the defense. If you try to go deep straight away you are setting yourself up for a fall. I thought this guy (Meyer) was supposed to be an offensive genius.

Jimmy:

I will let kibbles and other FL fans provide their insight specifically to Meyer but often when a team has a truly great player the tendency when the chips are down is to just expect the guy to DO something. No matter what.

Packers did that to Favre in the early 00's before McCarthy showed up and decided the guy needed some help.

While we were all watching Florida vs Michigan, Texas Tech pulled off a spectacular bowl comeback for the second year in a row.

As much as I think UCLA did the right thing by hiring Neuheisel, it would have been interesting seeing Mike Leach coaching a team with top-level talent.

Badger

I am a firm beleiver that great players only truly stand out when given a solid platform to stand on in the form of a solid supporting cast (see Manning, Archie or Young, Steve). If you have a hole in your side the good players have to adjust to compensate for a hole. Great offensive players create holes in the any defense (ie. Owens, Moss etc) which automatically puts the defense on its back foot.

It is this reason why I think Favre might be the best player I ever saw (and this is about as grudging an admission as you will see in a while, I used to despise the guy, for obvious Bear-related reasons). My main reason for my high rating of Favre is that I never really rated his supporting cast during his great years wasn't all that special (as a Packers fan you might disagree here). The line was quite good and the rest of the team was good all around, but no terrifying weapons in the mould of Rice, Owens or Moss, similarly Levens was a decent back but a long way behind players like Emmitt Smith or Tomlinson. His uncanny arm and ability to improvise was unstoppable without all the help that Brady, Manning or Steve Young had.

I will however admit to a fairly tenuous link between my post and the intended subject matter of this thread to which I say, "I didn't start it, it was Badger, that Badger right there!!"

How often does a team (Florida) lose despite being +4 in Turnovers? Sure, UF defense has been one of the worst this season, but I think some of that is injuries/young defense and a lot has to be Strong. Ever since he took over (was it around 2000?) he has had CB's play 7+ yards off the line.

This is crazy to have several corners start several yards behind the first down marker and backing up. You are giving up the first down whenever they want it. Only Auburn and Michigan really just took the "dink and dunk" and accepted it for whatever was given them.

Tebow really seemed too focused on either screen passes or long passes. Other than Harvin, how many passes were there that were about 10-15 yards down the field? How many passes targeted Cooper, one of the players who had great TD to reception ratio early in the season? Henne, on the other hand, seemed to target open receivers and hit them in stride with much more consistency. Of course, Michigan's defense were covering better (other than the couple wide-open UF players).

This thread's been worth it just to see BadgerT1000's meltdown :-)

It almost makes up for my Gators spitting the bit against Michigan. MICHIGAN!!! The team that NEVER wins a big game. I'm quite honestly humiliated, and I didn't even leave the house today.

Methinks Mizzou should have been in a BCS bowl instead of Illinois.

actually it should have been Missouri and not Kansas, but that is neither here nor there.

Methinks Mizzou should have been in a BCS bowl instead of Illinois.

I agree, but there's a rule that prohibits more than two teams from any conference from participating...which I think is silly, but it's there.

Missouri beat Kansas and is more deserving than KU, but the Orange thought KU would sell more tickets.

I hate Georgia wearing black unis. I hate ****ing Georgia anyway. I'm not sure my anti-Hawaii stance will overcome that.

Kevin,
Concerning potentially hiring Terry Bowden- As a WVU fan, hiring Terry is the only thing that would make the end of the 2007 season more upsetting than it already is. More upsetting than if the Mountaineers lose to Oklahoma tomorrow. After Rod, I don't want the school to hire anyone with any WVU ties at all. Especially one that hasn't coached in a decade. The last thing West Virginia needs is the football team to be run like everything else in the state: a good-ol-boy-centric institutionalization of mediocrity.

I'd rather see Foster, Locksley (Rose Bowl notwithstanding) or someone from left field. But I'd like to see the administration, like any reputable employer, hire someone based on competence and a desire to make the performance of the last three years the rule, not the exception. I don't like Terry's odds of making that happen. If he wants the job so bad, he should get a position somewhere else and prove that he's still got what it takes, and wait for a future vacancy if he does.

oljb- all due respect...

Bowden did an awesome job at Auburn. The guy sure looks like he can coach.

The fact that it was close to ten years ago is a factor. But in reality...does it get any better than Terry Bowden?

Actually, it might be...there are internet reports that WVU is going all-out to get Nick Saban.

and Nick Saban will look at his #2 class at Alabama and think better of going to WVU. Plus he knows he cannot take the hit of leaving after one season at Alabama.

lionsbob-
The exact same thing could have been said of Bub Huggins and the incredible recruiting class he left behind after one year at Kansas St. I'm not taking the Saban reports too seriously, but I don't really think that anyone other than JoePa going mercenary, for one job or another, would be shocking.

Kevin-
You may be right and I may be wrong about Terry Bowden. If he's hired, I will certainly hope that's the case. But he's been out of a rapidly-evolving college game for so long, and is a decade removed from his recruiting infrastructure. And although he was undefeated his first year, his abbreviated final season at Auburn was an unmitigated disaster. Despite the high-potential upside of a once-great coach, I think it's too risky.

Cheap shot helmet-to-helmet hits mean that Hawaii came to play, apparently.

89- I'm a Vols fan. I love Phil Fulmer because he's one of us.

Terry Bowden is one of you.

true, but Huggins was known for one job where he unceremoniously got dumped. Saban is known for being a mercenary coach (true or not). Saban has more to lose by leaving Alabama after one season then Huggins did leaving a not-so-huge non-basketball school that gave him a second chance (which appeared to be the biggest gripe from KSU fans).

I was not sure I was watching Michigan today. They seemed specifically prepared for the opponent and they never took the foot off the pedal on offense or defense (offense at the very end only, could've been a seed for disaster). Who knew? Only in Big Ten play Michigan always seemed to be great at exploiting teams' worst weakness, but I had not seen them do that against big-time non-conference opponents. Clearly they decided they had their only chance if they could get to Tebow and force him to throw. They never wavered from that, which was awesome. Should a Michigan fan be happy or sad they figured out the whole dual-threat QB thing in the very last game of the Lloyd Carr tenure? Against the very best dual-threat guy this year, no less. Troy Smith, Juice Williams, Dennis Dixon, and Vince Young send their thanks to Carr, English, and the rest of the UM coaching staff. Oh, what could've been.

Carr absolutely deserved to go out on top -- even if I do hate his guts.

On more thing: Henne definitely showed today he can be a fantastic asset in the NFL. How many current college QBs can make that many calls and adjustments at the line of scrimage, have that responsibility, and make the safety-corner splitting throws he made today and so many times before. With his injury, we all forgot he was a big reason the UM offense was expected to be so good, thus the high UM preseason rank going into the season.

I still do not understand how I am being unreasonable.

Tennessee was penalized multiple times for personal fouls.

Tennessee delivered several blows to the head. One was deemed an infraction. On another it was reported both during the game and after the game that the official admitted a penalty should have been assessed.

It wan't one out of control player. It wasn't just the defense (chop block by the offense). It was a team-wide practice.

And I am engaged in some kind of p#ssing match? I am having a meltdown?

What is wrong with pointing out that there is a right way to play football?

And as I have written multiple times TN was the better team today. Doesn't mean they are not scum. The two are not mutually exclusive.

if anyone wants to take the time to point out factual inaccuracies in my previous posts I am more than willing to listen.

My guess is that I will be branded a "whiner" DESPITE my repeated criticisms of the WI coaching staff.

Badger:

My father and I both saw a lot of cheap shots from UT as well. My dad's noticed that you see a lot of that sort of thing from SEC teams- I guess they have so much speed that it leads to dirty head shots. UGA are acting like jackasses at just about every turn (and Hawaii's not saintly either- they've been penalized for a helmet-to-helmet shot and another late hit).

You're not alone in what you saw.

Rocco:

The officials saw some too. TN was penalized for a 15 yd facemask that yanked a guy's head around, a 15 yard blow to the qb's head and 15 yards for a blatant chop block.

But I am the one who gets chided for calling scum, scum.

So, yeah, about Hawaii belonging in a BCS game...

Because that is not scum? Of course I am sure Wisconsin has never had a 15 yard personal foul penalty ever.

99: What's sad is that it's not clear that Hawaii's the most overmatched BCS team - Illinois looked terrible against USC, too.

This game sucks. Georgia-Missouri would have been awesome.

101- I didn't see the Rose Bowl as I was on the way home from my parents' house. They sounded pretty poor on the radio- the turnovers and constant shooting themselves in the foot was a nice touch. I feel a little badly for Illinois- they shouldn't have been in the Rose Bowl, and I really would have liked to see UF/ILL in Zook's vengeance game. The Rose Bowl wanted a Big 10 team though.

24-3 UGA. I wonder if UGA can top the 49-17 spread USC laid on the Illini.

Rivers just got knocked out. Damn, he got whallopped..

The BCS pretty much picked terrible match-ups its whole series. Hopefully I am wrong. Even the most exciting one-Oklahoma-West Virginia is dampered a little bit by the coaching change.

It should have been USC-Ohio State Rose Bowl, but whatever.

103: Yeah, Illinois was awful, but I'm rethinking my previous statement. Hawaii has completely fallen apart.

I liked the excuse made for them being unable to stop the run - since they are a run-and-shoot team, and it's hard for them to practice. Uh, wouldn't you think that preparing for a running game would be something they'd have to do at SOME point?

#106
well you know, the Big Ten is not known for running the ball.

the excuse is that a healthy USC team this year is one of the best in the country. simple as that.

107: My bad, I was unclear. That excuse was made for Hawaii, not the Illini. (Georgia has completely run over the Hawaii defense.)

I'd say that the excuse is the same, though: Georgia is completely out of Hawaii's class.

Obviously, Hawaii has no business being in a BCS bowl. Having said that, UGA is playing about as well as any team in the country right now. They kind of remind me of LSU last year, in the sense that you can't really justify putting them in the BCS Championship (due to the 2 losses), but neither of the teams that are in the Championship would be a clear favorite over them, IMO.

because of the awful job the BCS did, I'm cheated. There were 5 games going up against each other this afternoon with three good ones.

Then 2 BCS games get their own showcase so no games can go up against them. The problem is that each game has only one good team.

What I wanted to see was an 8 team playoff involving USC, LSU, Oklahoma, Ohio State, West Virginia, Georgia, Virginia Tech, and Missouri.

I'm calling this in the second quarter. Once again, great job by the BCS and the Sugar Bowl. We all hate competitive football games.

24-3! This game is getting even more exciting! What compelling TV!

Will Colt Brennan be able to complete 4 passes to the Georgia defense? Stay tuned to find out!

Brennan has now fumbled a ball which was returned for a TD by Georgia, and thrown three picks. Yards per attempt is 4.5 and he has thrown for exactly zero TDs.

During the season, he averaged nearly 9 YPA and nearly 4 TDs per game.

His QB rating was over 166. Tonight it's 82.
=======

The above is a compilation of my comments.

The Hawaii offense that averaged over 46 points per game is averaging a point a quarter against Georgia.

If only Hawaii did not schedule so many cupcakes we would not be in this predictament. When was the last good Sugar Bowl? I guess LSU beating Oklahoma.

ah forgot about the Auburn-VT game the next year. And I guess Georgia-WVU was good as Georgia did come back to make it a game.

Brennan is now crying on the bench (he got pulled in the 3rd quarter because he couldn't stop turning it over).

The Warriors shouldn't be ranked in the top 25 after this travesty. And Illinois should be dropped to like 21.

The two BCS "games" (more like outright massacres) were the worst New Year's bowl games I've seen in my life. And there's every indication the other BCS bowls will be just as bad.

And yet somehow a playoff system is supposed to be WORSE than seeing games so utterly non-competitive I had to stop watching. Somebody please explain this to me.

Oh, and I've now developed a burning and everlasting hatred for the Rose Bowl and everyone associated with it.

Also, I finally figured out what BCS *really* stands for--Boring Crap Snoozefests.

BadgerT, really- enough already.

115- There would be blowouts in a playoff as well, especially if the MAC, Sun Belt, and WAC (hello, Hawaii) champs are included.

About a month ago on this thread, I had the gall to question Hawaii's credentials as a contender for the national title, and was panned for it. I'll repeat- Hawaii's schedule was a joke, and it's the only reason they went 12 - 0. Plenty of other teams would have gone 12 - 0 with that schedule.

Seriously, I can't believe what I'm reading. Since late November it's been "the BCS sucks since Hawaii doesn't get a shot at the championship". Now the SAME PEOPLE are saying the BCS sucks because Hawaii couldn't compete against a real team.

USC would have won but if Illinois sticks it in the end zone instead of the player fumbling inside the 5 it's 21-17 in the 3rd quarter. Yeah, maybe it still ends up 49-17 but Illinois had some moments where they looked competitive.

Hawaii had no such moments.

And kevin, there is no profanity. No attacks against posters in this forum. Just my disgust at thuggish play.

I had to endure Forrest Gregg coaching GB with the likes of Ken Stills on the roster. It almost ruined football for me as a young fan.

Doug Farrar has a campaign against horrid officiating. I loudly deplore cheap shots.

So no, when it happens no matter the team, I will point it out.

And next year if WI goes dirty against MINUTE or some such I will be even MORE vociferous.

I hate this garbage. Hate with a passion of 1000 suns.

Minute should have beeb Minnesota. MN turned into minute with some new software loaded over the holiday.

The next time somebody starts talking about the clear superiority of the SEC to the Big Ten, at least in the top half of the conferences, I'd wish they would examine the record of such match-ups over the last 25 games or so; I believe it is pretty even. TN and WI were very evenly matched, and MI clearly outplayed FL. I think OSU and LSU will be another very even contest. The anomaly of last year's blowout of the Buckeyes is having excessive effect on perceptions.

As far as the Rose Bowl, IL was clearly a team inexperienced to such an event, and played below their capabilities, which is not to say that they belong in USC's class. However, every single break went USC's way, especially with loose footballs, which led to the margin of victory. Change the loose football luck, from laterals bouncing on the ground, to snaps over punter's heads, to fumbles near the goal line, and quite possibly Illinois' defense doesn't lose spirit, and the 4th quarter would have been worth watching. Sometimes, I wish there was an alternate universe where the Rose Bowl alternated between Pasadena and, say, Chicago or Cleveland, so we could see how USC fared in a less consistently friendly environment.

I forget all of the classic matchups for different bowls. However, in my idea of Bowls + 1 the BCS Bowls would look like this:

Rose Bowl: Big-10 against PAC 10 - Ohio State against USC
Sugar Bowl: LSU (SEC Champ) against at large team (hopefully, Kansas or Missouri rather than Hawaii)
Orange Bowl: Oklahoma (Big 12 Champ) against WVa (Big Least Champ) or Virginia Tech (ACC Champ)
Fiesta Bowl: At large Team (Georgia or Hawaii or Kansas/Missouri) against the Conference Champ not playing in Orange Bowl.

I'm not sure that Hawaii (not in Top 8 in BCS rankings before the Bowls) against Mizz or Kansas in the Cotton Bowl would be a much better matchup, but it could still work.

After this the #1 and #2 teams would play a week or so later. Not sure that would be a better matchup than we have, but I think we could have had a few more closely matched games.

117: What is "thuggish" play to you? It's football. It's a game based on having a physical presence and intimidation. It's based on making another team capitulate to your will. Late hits and blows to the head happen as part of high speed collisions. Some might be intentional, but most aren't. Chop blocks are often the result of blocking miscommunications. Again some might be intentional, but most aren't. Thuggish behavior is Coach Hayes taking a shot on the sideline at a Clemson player. It's not hitting a guy a step out of bounds because you don't know where you are on the field or hitting a guy in the head because you're trying to make a play.

119: I believe the two conferences are quite even over the past 25 contests. In the past 5 years (including this season) however, the SEC is 23-13 in bowl games while the Big Ten is 14-21. The SEC also has two national titles in that span as well as Auburn's undefeated season.

I don't want to hear how the Illinois game could have been competitive.
It ended 49-17 because USC let up on them. Illinois did not belong to be anywhere near a BCS bowl.

Well, Double B, when evaluating relative strenghts of two conferences, the best way to do it is by head to head matchups, not by records which include many non-common opponents. If the SEC were clearly superior to the Big Ten, we would not expect to see about a 50/50 split between the two conferences over 25 games. No, it's not extremely unlikely statisitically, but it is far more likely that we would see the SEC with an edge, if the SEC was significantly better.

It'd also be interesting to see how often the Big Ten plays bowl games which are close to being home games for their opponents, like the Rose Bowl frequently is, of this year's game between LSU and Ohio State, or the Michigan/Florida game.

USC would have won but if Illinois sticks it in the end zone instead of the player fumbling inside the 5 it’s 21-17 in the 3rd quarter. Yeah, maybe it still ends up 49-17 but Illinois had some moments where they looked competitive.

Hawaii had no such moments.

Bull. Hawaii had plenty of briefly competitive moments (primarily all in the first half) - at least as many as Illinois did.

Both games were mismatches. I hate the phrase "such-and-such didn't belong," because 1) it's demeaning to the team that won, 2) like you could really figure out who 'belongs' this year (Michigan 'belonged' vs. Florida? Really?), and 3) stuff like this happens every year (OSU vs Florida last year).

It was just a mismatch, that's all, and it's the exact same thing in all of the cases - the offensive/defensive lines. And I swear, if I hear 'too much SEC speed' if the same thing happens next week I'll throttle someone. It's not speed, as in 'running-back speed'. It's speed as in big fat guy speed.

If you can't match up along the lines, the game won't be competitive. Simple as that. That doesn't necessarily mean that "such and such didn't deserve to be there" - that's not giving enough credit to UGA/USC.

Let's also remember that major conferences go very deep into bowls - the Big 10 has what, eight bowl teams this year? Does how Purdue or Indiana performs have anything to say as to how tough the conference is? And a lot of better bowl matchups are slotted not-so-fairly (Conference A #2 vs Conference B #4) while the crap bowls are just a grab for six-win teams that can brign a few fans, so we would need to look very closely at the data to determine . . . wait, what the hell are we doing?

The whole my-conference-is-superior thing is very hard to determine with any level of confidence, on top of which the target is moving every year, and the next time someone changes his mind about the place in the pecking order of his favorite conference will be the first time. Well, SEC fans anyway.

I do agree the Fla-OSU debacle from laast year weighs too heavily in people's minds. I also would like to point out that OSU didn't look any more competitive that night than Hawaii did last night. While I - like everyone else - think Hawaii is a fraud, we shouldn't read too much into last night. Stuff happens.

Most of the SEC/Big 10 crap comes from fans who feel that certain, conspicuous Big 10 teams receive an edge when it comes to polls/rankings/bowl selections. I see it as the fans attempting to garner that media love for their own conference.

Also, I think it's pretty clear that SEC has been the best conference for the last two years (but I wouldn't go farther than that) and fans like to crow about it when their team or conference is good.

BTW, let me quickly explain the whole power-of-the-Big 10 mystery for everyone. Short answer: very big schools in (mostly) wealthy, urban, moderately-to-highly populated states. Other conferences have, on average, smaller, less wealthy schools in smaller, less wealthy states. So a lot of fans, a lot of alumni, a lot of wealthy alumni, a lot of still-living-nearby alumni, a lot of alumni living in areas easily targeted by media (big cities). It has little or nothing to do with academic prowess - though the Big 10 is pretty good academically, cranking out a few more CEOs and VP-of-whatevers is trivial compared with sheer numbers. It probably helps that the Midwest is where it is - the Pac 10 probably is penalized by Western Standard Time. One last factor that may subconsciously irk or confuse people is that anythng midwest-based is normally not favored the way NY or beltway-centered concerns can be. But the east coast, and particularly the extremely heavily populated northeast is stunningly devoid of large public universitites (thus the main driver of the historical fan base of Notre Dame). So the Big 10 'wins' partly as a result of the natural default of the northeast USA, and people kind of wonder what happened.

Frankly I don't think the Big 10 gets a lot of special favors, but if they do, it's simple as to why - numbers.

Pat, I mostly agree with your post, but I don't recall any time in the 2nd half when Hawaii was three yards away from a 4 point deficit, which was followed by a live ball bouncing perfectly off the turf to a Georgia player who then went 75 yards with it, to make the lead 18 again. No, Illinois isn't in USC's class on most days, but they come a lot closer to USC than Hawaii does Georgia. When your offensive tackles just flat out whiff repeatedly against the opposition's defensive ends, you simply can't compete at all.

Then again, the Buckeye's offensive tackles had a pretty bad day against Florida's defensive ends last year, so you're right that one shouldn't read too much into one game.

zzzzz ... wha?

BC-what?

Oh yeah, those other games. I watched the formerly-known-as-Citrus Bowl (happily), the first half of the Rose Bowl and-I-don't-care-who-presents-it (unhappily), and that was it.

The BCS sucks because a) it pretends to maintain the tradition of the bowls when in fact it and the bowls are more than happy to change anything and everything as circumstances dictate, and b) all it does is have two teams play for a MNC. A plus-one format just lets four teams play for a MNC. (Also, c) people who can't possibly watch enough football to rate enough teams knowledgeably are asked to use a clumsy interval system that becomes the primary factor in determining the MNC contenders.)

I'm not bothered as much by Hawaii not being able to play for a title as I am that Hawaii and Georgia and Missouri and Kansas and USC and West Virginia couldn't play for a title. (And, for that matter, Central Michigan and Troy.)

Will, FWIW, the majority of the bowls with which the Big Ten is affiliated will be effective home games for opponents on occasion, but that's simply because bowl games are mostly played in warmer cities and the Big Ten is a cold-weather conference, the only BCS conference that doesn't extend its reach out of the Snow Belt. It's just one of those things I've come to accept. It might tip the scales on occasion, but I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting a team to be able to win a big game on the road. (Not sure why I believe that, having watched Purdue football for so long.)

The Buckeyes are 0-8 against the SEC in bowl games. That might have a *little* something to do with people thinking the SEC is superior methinks.

Yeah, I understand why it happens, zlionsfan, and no, I really don't expect bowl games to be played in Chicago. I just think that when bowl performances are evaluated, the fact that some teams get to play a significant number of defacto home games should be remembered.

#128: I said "in the first half," didn't I? I'm pretty sure it says that up there.

The entire difference between the UH/UGA and USC/Illinois game was that UH primarily passes, and Illinois primarily runs. Neither of them had a chance due to the complete mismatches at the line, but a running team will string together a drive or two, whereas a primarily passing team will completely flame out.

In the end, though, the details don't really matter.

129, I have a big problem with allowing mid major conference champions automatic berths into any sort of post season system, be it the BCS, or a playoff down the road. They are lesser confenferences, and it's blatantely clear. Teams that are powerhouses in minor conferences, the Hawaiis, Boise States, and BYUs are replacement level teams at best, and most years not even that. I've said all year that if this years BSU and Hawaii were thrown into the PAC 10, Boise'd be dead last, and Hawaii would be at best 8th.

The flaws of the mid major conferences are apparent when one looks at the games, but is often glossed over in an industry obsessed with winning. Being undefeated doesn't mean a whole lot when you play the 137th ranked schedule and looked bad while doing it.

Every once in a while, a team like last year's Boise State comes along. These teams are rare, and prove themselves by dominating their schedules. The mid major teams, even the mid major champions, should be held to the same standard as any team seeking an at large bid. It is not enough for these teams to win, they must dominate the inferior competition. If they simply tread water in a very shallow conference, then they have demonstrated that they are not good enough to play with the dominant teams in college football.

One alternative that I find very attractive in the event of a playoff format would be to assume a format similar to the English Premier Soccer league. Bar Minor conferences from a shot at the national championship, and pair each conference to a major conference, with some minor redistricting, like moving LaTech to a closer geographic league. WAC to PAC 10, MWC to Big12, CUSA to Big East, MAC to Big10, Sun Belt to SEC, Independents plus a few premier FCS teams to the ACC. Play out the season, 8 team playoff, the six major champions, plus two at large teams from the major conferences. At the same time, take the six minor conference champions, and promote them into the major conference, while taking the last place teams from each of the major conferences and demoting them to the minor conferences. This would prevent teams like Hawaii from skating in on pathetic schedules, while giving all teams a chance to work their way into prominence.

#133: Of course, it'd be nice to hear alternatives which don't require about 12 independent organizations to suddenly decide to effectively disband while creating an overarching organization which can effectively handle the desires of 100+ major universities all at once.

I’m not bothered as much by Hawaii not being able to play for a title as I am that Hawaii and Georgia and Missouri and Kansas and USC and West Virginia couldn’t play for a title.

They could, and did. For example, all Missouri had to do for a chance at the title was to beat Oklahoma in the Big 12 title game. They couldn't. Had USC gotten past Stanford, had West Virginia not lost to Pitt...you get the picture.

Sorry to say that I don't see the next two BCS bowls being any more entertaining than the first two, as I anticipate Oklahoma and Virginia Tech blowing out their opponents. I hope I'm wrong.

I disagree, Pat, and to nitpick, "primarily in the first half" is not synonymous with "in the first half". If Illinois had done nothing more than exhibit better ball security (the fumbles were more the result of sloppy ball handling than bone-jarring hits), or had some very strong fumble luck, while USC had some bad luck when they put the ball on the ground via lateral or punt snaps, the game would have been close into the fourth quarter. In contrast, there was practically no point at which Hawaii's offensive and defensive lines weren't getting flat-out whipped badly. I just don't think the games were very similar, although you may be right that a team that doesn't run at all will look worse when things go south.

#135: The funny thing about that is that I think, in the end, the BCS games could've been entertaining - if you shuffled around the opponents. Illinois vs. UH would've been a fun game to watch (team that never passes vs. team that never runs!), and USC vs Georgia would've been a dogfight.

The only problem are the traditional tie-ins, plus the fact that neither Illinois nor UH were expected to travel well.

So, pretty much, all about the money. Oh well, Georgia and USC fans can't complain.

137- I posted on the SDA thread before the bowls were selected that the Rose wanted Illinois thinking that they would travel well. I have no idea if that turned out to be true, but there was an awful lot of orange in the stands of the Rose Bowl yesterday.

Speaking of "travelling well", West Virginia once had a reputation for exactly that. Spoiled by success, I guess.

In contrast, there was practically no point at which Hawaii’s offensive and defensive lines weren’t getting flat-out whipped badly.

Are you trying to suggest there was a point at which Illinois's lines looked even passable vs USC?!

That's my point. The details are, for the most part, unimportant. USC was a little sloppy for basically the middle of the game, and that let Illinois hang in there a bit. But it doesn't matter. Illinois's lines were getting whipped just as bad, and whenever that happens, you're going to lose, and lose badly.

although you may be right that a team that doesn’t run at all will look worse when things go south.

Doesn't take much to realize that - if you primarily run, the occasional time when your opponent screws up (on the defensive line) nets you a huge gain. If you primarily pass, the occasional time when your opponent screws up (on the defensive line) nets you enough time to attempt a deep pass. Brennan did have a few plays where he had time, he just didn't connect.

For another example, look at OSU (last year)'s one successful drive versus Florida (early in the first half). It's primarily all runs.

In contrast, there was practically no point at which Hawaii’s offensive and defensive lines weren’t getting flat-out whipped badly.

Are you trying to suggest there was a point at which Illinois's lines looked even passable vs USC?!

That's my point. The details are, for the most part, unimportant. USC was a little sloppy for basically the middle of the game, and that let Illinois hang in there a bit. But it doesn't matter. Illinois's lines were getting whipped just as bad, and whenever that happens, you're going to lose, and lose badly.

although you may be right that a team that doesn’t run at all will look worse when things go south.

Doesn't take much to realize that - if you primarily run, the occasional time when your opponent screws up (on the defensive line) nets you a huge gain. If you primarily pass, the occasional time when your opponent screws up (on the defensive line) nets you enough time to attempt a deep pass. Brennan did have a few plays where he had time, he just didn't connect.

For another example, look at OSU (last year)'s one successful drive versus Florida (early in the first half). It's primarily all runs.

Beh, dunno how that happened. The first post shouldn't've gone through. Anyway...

One other thing I thought was weird in the Sugar Bowl: I think Georgia knew Brennan's cadence, as well. The defensive line wasn't just getting a "good jump" on the snap. They were getting an impossibly good jump on the snap. Of course, on one play, they got an illegally good jump on the snap, as the Georgia player was definitely offsides, but it didn't get called.

I mean, it's one thing to say "hey, man, we're fast" and it's another for an edge rusher 10 yards down the line to be moving exactly at the snap. That doesn't happen in the NFL, much less college football.

Not that it really mattered in any case, though, because even when they were blocked they still ran over the guy. :)

Yeah, moving around the Rose Bowl and Sugar Bowl competitions would have made for much better games. Of course, the only reason Illinois gets the BCS berth is because the Rose Bowl commitee, Big Ten, and Pac 10 want to maitain the Midwest vs. West Coast flavor whenever possible.

A playoff set up which had the BCS conference champs seeded 1-6, with Hawaii at 7, and, I dunno, BYU (Mountain West champ, iirc) at number 8 might'ive been good. Yeah, Hawaii and BYU would've been crushed in Columbus and Baton Rouge, but seeing, say, Oklahoma host USC and Virginia Tech host West Virginia on the opening weekend would be great fun. A semifinal of the Buckeyes and USC in the Rose Bowl would be great, and maybe VA Tech/LSU in the Superdome or Miami would be much better the second time around; it seems both teams have changed a lot. The championship game would be great.

I'd rather have what we have now than let 2nd place conference finishers in a playoff.

Of course, the only reason Illinois gets the BCS berth is because the Rose Bowl commitee, Big Ten, and Pac 10 want to maitain the Midwest vs. West Coast flavor whenever possible.

I'm not sure, but if you had to pick a coast to associate Hawaii with, I think it'd be the West Coast, rather than the East Coast. :)

Yes, Pat, I'd say there were periods during which Illinois ran effectively, and times, prior to the botched lateral going for 75 yards, when the Trojans didn't move the ball. I haven't checked it, but I suspect Georgia punted less than USC, and Hawaii punted more than Illinois. When Brennan got plastered, it hardly ever was the result of a blitz, while Williams got hit by linebackers a lot after Illini running backs whiffed. Illinois' lines were not dominated nearly as thoroughly as Hawaii's.

Actually, I think Hawaii is farther from the West Coast than Pennsylvania. Hell, at least a group of five nut job fans from Happy Valley can pool their gas money, and drive to Pasadena in their Civic in about 24 hours. Try doing that from Honululu!

Bah. I was watching the Niner game the other day and thinking "hmmm, I managed to avoid Vasgersian," and then I turn on the Fiesta Bowl and see that he's the play-by-play guy.

I don't actually hate the guy, but just hearing his voice makes me think the game will suck beyond the telling of it, because I can't remember a game he's called recently that didn't. (I wonder if it means that Fox thinks the game will suck...)

I saw the same thing, especially with Georgia's right defensive end. I kinda' felt sorry for the tackle opposite him.

WVU is pwning Oklahoma defensively on the first series (despite OU offensive holding).

Actually, I think Hawaii is farther from the West Coast than Pennsylvania.

I'm assuming you mean "than Pennsylvania is," as I certainly hope Hawaii is closer to the West Coast than it is to Pennsylvania.

They're pretty much equidistant, actually. Depends on where you want to go in California, and where you're coming from in Pennsylvania. (State College - Pasadena is 2575 mi, Honolulu - Pasadena is 2551 miles).

And I'm also assuming by "24 hours" you mean "about 36", as unless you're averaging 100+, you're not doing 2500 miles in 24 hours.

I dunno, Pat, I think I averaged close to that on a jaunt from Minneapolis to Daytona Beach when I was 18....not that I am advocating that sort of thing....

#150: Yeah, but you certainly didn't do it in a Civic. At least, not one with 5 guys in it.

OU is playing poorly and getting bad QB in a bowl game where they should be winning. Where have I seen this before?

It's all a little fuzzy, Pat, for some unfathomable reason.....

I think WVU should send a thank-you note to Russell for picking OU. The kiss of death strikes again.

You know, it's games like this that show why you shouldn't let mid-major teams like Oklahoma into the BCS. Sure, sometime's they'll have a good enough season to keep up with a mediocre conference champion like Boise State, but most of the time...

(Yes, I'm joking.)

This is why I don't gamble.

At some point Bob Stoops will have to produce in a non 2000 season bowl game.

#155: That was priceless. Absolutely priceless. Funniest post of 2008 :-)

Stoops obviously made a deal with the devil to get that one title which stipulated that he'll never win another BCS bowl again.

BTW I can't stand OU so I was absolutely loving it, except for the parts where OU kept scoring and making me nervous since I've seen them come back from 3-score deficits in the 4th before.

From the New York Times:

Leigh Steinberg, the agent for Hawaii coach June Jones, said he expected a decision on Jones's future to be made in a "fairly rapid time frame." Steinberg would not get into specifics about programs that have expressed an interest in Jones, but it has been widely reported that SMU is one of them. The major lingering issue for Jones's future at Hawaii is not his salary, which is $800,000 a year and could be expected to increase. It is whether Hawaii, now that it has begun to benefit from playing big-time football, will commit to investing heavily in the program. The program's football budget -- $2.2 million -- is more than $1 million less than that of its chief Western Athletic Conference rival, Boise State. The Hawaii football facilities were described as "condemned" by quarterback Colt Brennan, who had to campaign through the news media to get soap in the locker room earlier this season. The Hawaii team videotaped practice for four years from a hand-held camera that Jones won at a golf tournament.

Bolding mine. You've got to be kidding me.

He couldn't buy a camera or eight with a $800k/year salary?

#159: I know stuff is supposed to be expensive in Hawaii, but I would have thought a six-figure salary would at least buy a year's worth of soap.

The coach isn't supposed to buy that stuff. Plus, once Jones buys something once, he'd always be expected to buy it.

Hawaii's boosters need to start caring about the football program with their wallets. And if no one cares enough, the school should drop football. Really, the Times article was embarrassing.

#161: You kidding? A six-figure salary barely buys a house in Hawaii.

(Seriously, though - the only things that are expensive in Hawaii are real estate and milk. Everything else is either the same price - thanks to Amazon.com - or only about 10-15% higher).

Hawaii’s boosters need to start caring about the football program with their wallets.

The university isn't the driving force behind the football program - the state is. The people at the games are primarily locals, not students.

There are a few important things to realize here: first, facilities degrade faster in Hawaii. That's just a fact of life - more water, harsher UV exposure, means things fall apart quickly. So the facilities are always going to be poor. Second, Hawaii being a team that ever appears in the NYT is something that's ridiculously recent. People don't support the team because people barely knew the team existed.

Expecting the entire fortunes of a school to turn around in a few years is just ludicrous. Oh, and the idea that "Hawaii should just drop football altogether" is also just idiotic. Schools can play football without having huge budgets. Most of the teams in Division IA (and obviously, those in IAA, II, and III) have virtually no budgets for football.

So quit with the "the school should drop football." Just because the program's not up to the standards that the "multi-hundreds of millions per year" get you at Ohio State doesn't mean that kids don't deserve to play.

163- Oh golly, Pat. You're portraying yourself as the guy that wants to let the kids play (how self-serving), and me as the one that wishes to prevent them from doing so.

Not...the...case. The gist of my post was "Get serious, Hawaii. Have some standards. Have soap in the locker room, for the love of God".

And if Hawaii can't do that, shut the doors. But I don't think that could or should happen.

When I was a freshman in college, I struggled. My Dad told me to get serious about college or stop wasting everyone's time and just drop out. It was good advice, and I'm applying the analogy to the Hawaii situation.

FWIW, I miss UH games airing on ESPN or ESPN2 starting at midnight.

So who do blame for VT sucking ass so far- me for saying Kansas doesn't belong in the BCS, or Russell for making VT his Edelstein lock?

Actually, I should blame the VT offensive line, which has been offensive.

163- Oh golly, Pat. You’re portraying yourself as the guy that wants to let the kids play (how self-serving), and me as the one that wishes to prevent them from doing so.

Really? I thought you were the one doing that. You're the one who said "Hawaii’s boosters need to start caring about the football program with their wallets. And if no one cares enough, the school should drop football," emphasis mine.

The soap story's a nice anecdote, but c'mon. He didn't say "we've never had soap," he said "we went spring without soap."

Hint: it's a university. They're not well known for their extremely functional support staff. The facilities people are crap at UH. Big deal. In contrast, the administrative staff at OSU is utter trash. Hint - I'd rather have to ask for my office to be cleaned than not get paid for three months.

It's not that UH doesn't support their football program. I have no idea what the cleaning staff does at UH, because it sure as hell isn't "clean."

So if you'd like to decry UH for having sucky cleaning staff, feel free. But most universities have some part of their beauracracy that blows utterly.

It was good advice, and I’m applying the analogy to the Hawaii situation.

You're applying it poorly. You're saying "the boosters should get serious, or else the school should drop football." The boosters and the school are two different groups. Just because the alumni don't care (or don't care enough to put them on OSU's level) doesn't mean that the university should axe football. They can afford to play. They just are never going to be on a school like OSU's level.

Nice of VT to show up to the game. They were a bit late, but hey, it works.

Carlton Powell with the suplex on Reesing, who's starting to take a lot of hits. He's running around a lot and trying to make plays, which isn't safe against VT's defense.

Sean Glennon throws an aimless duck downfield into double coverage (aka the Anthony Morelli Special). Two Jayhawks have their hands on the ball, neither controls it, it falls onto the VT receiver's legs, and VT's tight end grabs the ball for a long pass completion. Better lucky than good, I suppose.

crazy break for Va Tech. Two Jayhawks in position for the pick but they both battle for the ball and it falls right onto the stomach of a VT player. Then the TE runs down the field and covers up the ball

You’re saying “the boosters should get serious, or else the school should drop football.” The boosters and the school are two different groups. Just because the alumni don’t care (or don’t care enough to put them on OSU’s level)

Pat, the Hawaii vs Ohio State argument is yours, not mine. You're bringing a strawman to the table.

I never said UH must have LCD TVs at every locker like OSU has. But decent facilities (soap) would be nice.

doesn’t mean that the university should axe football. They can afford to play. They just are never going to be on a school like OSU’s level.

I will go on record- Hawaii needs to grow or die on the vine. I hope the former is the case.

Sean Glennon reminds me why I hate him with an ugly INT. 1 play later, 24-14 Kansas with 10 minutes left in the 4th. Where's my vodka?

Both quarterbacks have been awful.

2 decision by VT I didn't like in 4th quarter:

1)The decision to onside kick it. Unless it's a surprise onside kick, I don't like doing it unless it's desperation because the odds of recovering are low. 3 minutes left and 2 timeouts.

2)They didn't stack the box to stop Kansas's running game on the ensuing drive, allowing Kansas to salt the game away.

Pat, the Hawaii vs Ohio State argument is yours, not mine.

It's not mine, actually. It's Brennan's, from the original Honolulu Advertiser article. I tended to continue it because I'm familiar with both.

Brennan talked about "reserved parking" (parking is one of the things OSU does incredibly well), and key card facilities (all facilities at OSU are key card anyway, which can actually be very annoying). Most of those comparisons are "grass is greener" complaints. The administrative debacles more than make up for their decent parking and cleaning staff.

I never said UH must have LCD TVs at every locker like OSU has. But decent facilities (soap) would be nice.

The "soap" argument is stupid. UH's cleaning staff sucks. While it may seem simple to say "jeez, why can't you get soap?" you're actually saying "jeez, why can't you fix your huge maintenance problem?"

UH does have 'decent' facilities - compared to random Division IAA teams, they're miles ahead. Hawaii can actually get people to come and play them, because they actually have a decent stadium (well, the city does). You can't say the same for a lot of small Division IA teams, and you can't say the same for most Division IAA teams.

Really, you're taking Brennan's complaints wrong. For most of the complaints, he's saying something because he doesn't know who to ask, and going through the media is frequently the fastest way to get things done at a university.

173: You can add the decision to call the first timeout to that. There were 11 seconds left on the play clock and Kansas was going to call a timeout before it expired, but VT called timeout anyway. Saving those 9-10 seconds cost the team 30 later in the game (setting aside the perceived value of having all three timeouts - who knows if they would have kicked deep in that case).

June Jones resigned from Hawaii.....because he felt that the athletic department was not up to par.

Tulsa just put the biggest bowl beatdown I've seen in my life on Bowling Green, 63-7, and I'm 34 BTW.

I'm expecting this thread's size to double for the title tilt tomorrow night!