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05 Nov 2007

Audibles at the Line: Game of the Century

Compiled by Doug Farrar

Each Sunday, the FO staff sends around e-mails to each other, both during and after the games. It lets us share ideas for columns and comments, and get an idea of how teams that we can't watch are playing. Be aware that the material in this roundtable might seem a bit disjointed and un-edited. It also might still show up later in the week in other columns, or in comments in PFP 2008. Games are chosen based on our own personal viewing preferences, and are going to reflect the teams we support and the cities where we live.

We don't usually do two different Audibles columns in one day, but the importance of this game, and the nature of much of the discussion surrounding it, led us to believe that replacing the Irrational Pats-Colts Armageddon Thread with a special Game of the Century Audibles would be the appropriate next step. We're hoping it doesn't get too irrational, but we're not counting on it. Please keep all commentary relating to this game and any "ancillary concerns" right here.

New England Patriots 24 at Indianapolis Colts 20

Ned Macey: The problem with the pass interference rule is that it is just so uncertain. Great half of football, but even as a fan of the Colts, that's still the first thing I'm thinking of. If I were voting, I'd have called it on Asante Samuel but not on Ellis Hobbs, although I want a longer look at Hobbs' because he did run under Reggie Wayne. I'm not even sure that's a penalty though. In a split second, however, they are impossible calls to make, so I fear we'll have to live with the inconsistency. The Colts only got three points out of it, and there's no saying they wouldn't have scored a field goal anyway, so hopefully it isn't the difference.

The Pats are leaving their tackles one-on-one a fair amount. Wouldn't be surprised to see them go to some max protect and start making plays 15 to 20 yards down the field in front of the safeties.

Is Bob Sanders lining up in Evansville? The only time I've seen him was when he correctly diagnosed the odd-looking draw to Faulk but overran it.

(That was after the first half... this next part came once the game was over...)

It is hard to know what to make of this game. The two teams have played a number of close regular season games over the years, so it is hard to tell if they truly are two amazing teams. I guess I would vote that the Colts are a much better football team then they were several years ago. Marlin Jackson and Kelvin Hayden just make the defense so much better. Really a shame for Jackson to get beat on the game-clincher because he was outstanding up to that point.

The Patriots offense appears to only be stoppable when you get pressure. In the first half, the Colts got pressure. In the fourth quarter, they didn't. Antoine Bethea was late on both the big plays, but Bethea is solid in coverage, and that, to me, is just a case of "outstanding" being better than "very good."

As a Colts fan, it is hard to be too disappointed. They played without two starting linebackers, their No. 1 or No. 1A receiver, and what proved to be most important, their left tackle. Charlie Johnson should take this tape and the tape of last year's Super Bowl and petition the NFL to classify him as a right tackle. His biggest contribution was picking up a fumble after he got beat for an earlier sack.

When Anthony Gonzalez went down that also hurt, as Aaron Moorehead should not be on the field every down. Also, it makes Dallas Clark a little easier to defend when Moorehead is the only other threat. Was Adalius Thomas on Clark as suspected?

On NFL Countdown, Tom Jackson picked the Colts and then later said the game was going to be won with special teams. Let's just say that was a highly unlikely outcome, and I wouldn't be surprised if DVOA saw this game pretty even in offense and defense, with an ENORMOUS advantage to the Pats on special teams. The Colts only started one drive past their own 24, and that was the Gary Brackett pick. Pats started one drive inside their own 24. I could be wrong because the Colts were also helped by penalties, beyond pass interference, that don't show up, but I know I'm not wrong that the Pats had a huge advantage there.

Vince Verhei: If I woke up tomorrow as the commissioner of the NFL, the first thing I would do would be to limit pass interference penalties to 15 yards. No more 50-yard penalties on questionable fouls. I think in the end each team got burned with a big penalty, so they never decided the game, but nothing annoys me more than seeing a team move halfway down the field without actually accomplishing anything.

I knew Indianapolis would, for the most part, take away the big plays from the New England offense. What I did not expect was the way their pass rush dominated the Patriots' offensive line in the first half. Don't know where that pass rush went in quarters three and four, though.

Bill Barnwell:Two things on this: The Law of Unintended Consequences comes into play. Anytime a defensive back was in a bad spot 40 yards downfield, he'd just shove the receiver down and take the 15-yard penalty. It would kill deep plays.

Also, when a defender commits pass interference, the offense HAS accomplished something. If it weren't for the defense committing a foul, by the nature of the penalty and the law itself, the pass would have been completed.

Michael David Smith: I really think both this game and the seemingly inevitable rematch come down to this: Which team's left tackle has the better game? Early today when Freeney was getting the better of Light, it looked like the Colts had a good chance of winning the game, but once Freeney ran out of steam and Johnson started doing just an absolutely horrible job protecting Peyton Manning, that switched the momentum.

Ryan Wilson: This is an oversimplification, obviously, but the Colts pressured Tom Brady and were physical with the receivers. That was why they were in this game until the last two minutes. I don't think the Pats expected the physicality, and for most of the game, they looked out of sorts. The problem for other teams on their schedule is generating a four-man pass rush. If you can't do that, it'll be a long day. If nothing else, though, we can put to rest all the talk about how this team can't be beat. They won, sure, but I don't think anybody expected the Pats to be trailing for 28 minutes. And the Colts were without four starters.

Doug Farrar: Is it just me, or is Rosevelt Colvin having an outstanding year? It seems that every time I watch the Patriots, he does something that just blows my mind. He did this ridiculous leaping stunt thing on Chris Samuels last week that I'd never seen before.

Bill Moore: Colvin IS having a stellar year. Last year was his first at 100 percent since his hip injury, and this year just builds on that. He admitted that last year he was just getting used to playing at full speed again. This year is probably the first year in a while that he doesn't have to think about it at all. Keep in mind that his free agent signing was as big in 2003 as the Thomas signing was this year.

Mike Tanier: Tanier, with Aaron to my left in the Lincoln Financial Field press box, chiming in with some stuff. First, on the Colts pass interference penalties in the first half, I am OK with both calls. The second one (the Wayne one) had some people howling in the bar we were at, but that call is made all the time in the NFL. If a cornerback runs under the receiver, lets the receiver back into him, then starts easing up, they throw the flag. It's a judgment call, because you can argue that the corner was playing the ball, but if the ref thinks he's just slowing the receiver down he makes the call. I see it all the time.

In the first half, the Colts' front four were just beating the Patriots' front five. The big difference in the second half, in addition to Matt Light and Nick Kaczur doing a better job on Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney, is that Brady started running more quick slants to Randy Moss. They hooked up three of four times on quick ones and it neutralized the pressure somewhat.

Another late adjustment was running the flat route to Wes Welker against man coverage. Two major plays late in the game were flat throws where Welker in the slot was matched up on either Bob Sanders or Marlin Jackson, and Donte Stallworth or Randy Moss cleared out as the split end.

Bill Moore: Well, all week people asked me what I expected from this game. I said it all came down to defenses. I was right, but for the wrong reasons. I expected it would be the defense that made one or two stops that would win the game. However, the effective play of both defenses had solid games.

Light, who has had mixed success against Freeney in the past, was totally dominated. At one point, he threwa reckless leg whip just to try and contain him. Mathis had almost as much success against Kaczur on the other side. The Pats countered with lots of draws or fake draws that were only semi-effective. Brady had the least amount of time in the pocket of any game this season. On the other hand, the Indy O-line was more effective at containing the Pats' rush. But for the end of the game, Manning had lots of time on many downs. In the second half, the Patriots finally realized that Light and Kaczur were getting beat, and were giving them help -- and that seemed to make a lot of difference.

The Patriots' complete lapse of concentration at the end of the first half should be embarrassing to them. At the same time, it was a very heads-up play by Joseph Addai. In the AFC Championship game, the Patriots had no answer for Dallas Clark. Today, they held the answer on Clark, but forgot to bring one for Addai. He had a very impressive game -- even without the huge play at the end of the first half.

Brady came into the game with two interceptions. He had two today. The first across-the-field lob to Stallworth was just a dumb play. The second was an absolutely amazing catch by Brackett.

I felt that New England got the short end of the penalty stick. This is the third big game in three years that Ellis Hobbs has gotten called for pass interference on very good coverage on an important deep ball. I was very surprised at Moss' offensive pass interference. I admit that Moss pushes off quite a bit, I just didn't think it happened on that play.

Overall, the Colts played a marginally better game for three quarters, and the Patriots stayed close long enough to have a shot. The drive charts are a great chronicle of the game:

NE:First half: Punt, touchdown, interception.
Third quarter: Punt, punt, field goal, interception.
Fourth Quarter: Touchdown, touchdown, kneel.

IND: First half: Missed field goal, field goal, field goal, touchdown.
Third quarter: Interception, punt, punt.
Fourth quarter: Touchdown, punt, fumble.

Bill Barnwell: I think the Colts had a really smart scheme that anticipated what the Patriots would do following their loss to the Colts in last year's postseason. They knew that the Patriots would overcompensate, to an extent, in their attempt to handle Dallas Clark, and without Mavin Harrison, they didn't have their top wideout, so they lined their receivers out wide expecting one-on-one man coverage, and ran curls over and over again for 12 yards at a time. That should lead to the Patriots getting out of two-deep zone coverage and giving safety support on the sides, opening up space over the middle for Clark and Ben Utecht, but the Patriots just stayed in the same scheme and simply got more pressure on Manning as the game went along. Manning was 95 percent of the quarterback he normally was. And that was some of the old awful Colts coverage units today. I think that was the difference more than anything that happened on offense or defense.

I really wonder whether Laurence Maroney's ever going to be the featured back for this team. It's pretty clear that Bill Belichick and company have no faith in him. His nicest run of the game was on a cutback, and it was almost entirely set up by a great block from Welker.

Aaron Schatz: I can't believe the Patriots won that game. They were clearly outplayed by the Colts for three quarters, and I was literally wringing my hands. You can ask Mike Tanier. Although some of the play in the first half seemed like sloppiness by one team rather than greatness by the other, I do think we can say that this was another great game between two great teams, two evenly matched teams, two teams that are far ahead of the rest of the league.

For a long time it looked like this game would be decided by three people. One was Addai, who was absolutely incredible in the first half, a game that would have gone down as one of the best of the year if Adrian Peterson wasn't having an even more stellar game on the same day. Like Peterson, he benefited from good tight end blocking -- the tight ends were totally taking out Tedy Bruschi in the cutback lane. The other two were Mathis and Kaczur. Mathis destroyed Kaczur. It was brutal. I honestly think Light had a much better time of it with Freeney than Kaczur had with Mathis. I don't think they really started giving Light and Kaczur more help in the second half, I just think they went to quicker developing pass plays.

The Pats sure did take an awful long time to change their offensive strategy, though. The word I kept using in the first half of this game was "hubris." The Pats came out doing the same stuff on offense that they've done against everyone else this year, and they took a long, long time to change it even though it was obvious from the beginning that this wasn't a winning strategy against the strengths of the Colts defense. They came out in the spread and the kept working the spread when it was clear Light and Kaczur needed help stopping the defensive ends. Even worse was that pass Brady just chucked up there, across his body, into the end zone. I'm sorry, but that stuff doesn't work against a well-coached Tony Dungy zone. Slowpoke McCrappypants from the Dolphins lets you get a touchdown on that play, but Bethea is going to intercept it nine times out of ten. Hubris.

I was also shocked by how little the Pats ran interesting blitzes with the 3-4. That had always been one of Manning's troubles with the 3-4 in the past, but the Pats nearly always sent just the three down linemen and one linebacker, except for when they were running a 4-2-5 and sent just four down linemen.

I think Colts fans have every right to say "the injuries were the biggest reason we didn't beat the Patriots today." Most Patriots fans would probably say that was whining, but not this Patriots fan. It is absolutely true. Ned mentioned Charlie Johnson, but I noticed Moorehead. There was a play at the beginning where Moorehead couldn't get his feet down in bounds. Harrison gets his feet down on that play. You could tell this guy really didn't belong out there playing an important role in a game of this magnitude, the same feeling I had about Eric Alexander in the AFC Championship last year.

Still, there's no doubt the Pats fixed their run defense in the second half and finally changed the offensive strategy, and they turned a switch on in the fourth quarter, and suddenly the Colts couldn't do anything right and the Pats somehow won this thing. Colts fans can say that they'll have Harrison and Ugoh next time. Pats fans can point out that next time is at their place. I mean no disrespect to the Steelers fans, but it would be a mind-blowing, 1996 Jacksonville-level shock if these teams did not play each other again in the AFC Championship.

Posted by: Doug Farrar on 05 Nov 2007

330 comments, Last at 11 Nov 2007, 3:16am by DGL

Comments

1
by Lyford (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:22pm

I think in the end each team got burned with a big penalty

As the Colts had 3 accepted penalties for 25 yards, and the Patriots had two different penalties for more than 35 yards, I don't see where this comment comes from.

2
by JFP (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:23pm

"In the AFC Championship game, the Patriots had no answer for Dallas Clark. Today, they held the answer on Clark, but forgot to bring one for Addai."

Is it possible that was intentional? I've heard several times that one of Belichick's keys to beating the Bills in the Superbowl was to let Thurman Thomas go over 100 yards rushing. Is it possible they thought they same about Addai? I'm sure Belichick wasn't counting on a 70 yard TD before half time. Other than that, maybe they were willing to let him get four or five yard gains all day and force the Colts to be patient and keep taking the short stuff.

3
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:24pm

"Was Adalius Thomas on Clark as suspected?"

No. Harrison was on him all day. The pats played "nickle" the whole first half. I say "nickle" because It was a nickle set, but Rodney Harrison was playing WLB, so it was really dime. (hence all the running)

4
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:24pm

(1) Where the heck did these refs come from? Two officials right on the play where (Gonzalez? Moorehead?) has his entire foot come down OOB and they call it a catch, forcing the Pats to burn a challenge? The phantom OPI call on Moss, while letting a Colts receiver tackle Rodney Harrison in the endzone to deny him any shot at a possible interception? The Colts receiver grabbing Hobbs around the waist and tackling him and having the PI being called on Hobbs?

(2) After all the words being spent on Adalius Thomas, he was (apparently by design) barely on the field. Interesting.

(3) Moss's one-handed catch in the 3rd quarter. Insane.

(4) Aaron, we know you love to get in your digs against the Pats to hype your "we're not a biased site" credentials, but there was nothing wrong with the play where Brady threw his first INT. Stallworth beat his man but Brady made a TERRIBLE throw. He hung it up and underthrew it, allowing Bethea to make a nice play. Stallworth could have done a better job coming back for the ball (or, hell, risking an OPI to break up the INT), too. But if Brady had made a good throw, that was a TD.

(5) My god, what atrocious tackling for the first 2.5 quarters by the Patriots.

(6) Looks like Matt Light's contract with Satan finally expired. That's the Matt Light all Pats fans know and (don't) love. I'm surprised they didn't use Brady, K. to help him out.

(7) It'll be interesting to see if the NFL sends Hobbs another "we blew it" letter. The league officially apologized to Hobbs for screwing him on the PI call in the AFCCG last season. They should send him another one.

(8) The Pats actually playing some red-zone D was huge in the first half. If those FGs were TDs, game over.

(9) Nice job by Welker to keep his head
and flop down after catching the first down at the end of the game to run the clock down to the 2-minute warning.

5
by gnomonclature (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:27pm

Is there a hypothetical equivalent of DVOA, based on what might have happened had everyone on both teams been healthy and played at 100% of their potential? The What-If-Adjusted Value Over Average, or WIVOA, would be loving the Colts. And you could claim that the WIVOA numbers are "absolutely true".

6
by Biebs (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:28pm

Something I noticed in the Pats/Colts game. New England had 3rd and 5 with 2:12 left in the game (with a 24-20 lead). The Colts used their 3rd and final timeout.

I would think it makes more sense to let the clock run down to 2 minutes and save the time out for after the Pats 3rd down play or use it so they can go in the middle of the field one more time, which would certainly take more than 12 seconds to run the next play (and quite possibly waste a down on a spike).

Obviously, it was inconsequential, since the Pats got the first down anyhow. But, is there a consensus on this? It seems like a 3rd time out to save 12 seconds is not worth it.

7
by JFP (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:29pm

#4
Mike Reiss of the Boston Globe said it was a first year ref for the game. He also said he was surprised by that and that he figured they would have a big name reflike Hochuli. (Throwing Hochuli in last night would have made it the Game of the Century!)

8
by Jeremy (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:30pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHQTcFQEMXo

Indy's fake crowd noise CD skips.

9
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:30pm

re:4

(2) After all the words being spent on Adalius Thomas, he was (apparently by design) barely on the field. Interesting.

He's hurt.

10
by White Rose Duelist (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:31pm

The Patriots were totally running up the score. I mean, did they really need that extra point when they were already up by three? Why not just have the holder kneel on it, and let the Colts keep a little dignity?

11
by Joe B (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:31pm

Bethea 6th round pick, Solid starter as a rookie, Beast in his 2nd year

No one gets more out of late round picks and undrafted players than Polian/Dungy
Every starter on their D has already outplayed his draft position.

Brakett and Ed Johnson-undrafted
Brock 7th round (cut by Eagles)
Bethea 6th round
Hagler and Mathis 5th round
Keiaho 3rd round
Sanders and Hayden 2nd round
Jackson late 1st
Freeney mid 1st

12
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:33pm

"Stallworth beat his man but Brady made a TERRIBLE throw. "

Agree. Stallworth had 3 yards on the guy, and Brady underthrew him by 10.

The question is, why is Brady throwing the ball at a 45 degree angle from 35 yards out? Oh yeah, he can't throw the deep ball.

13
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:33pm

Re: #8

Mike Florio noticed that, too:

4. Milli Vanilli moment in Indy?

In the past, teams that have visited the RCA Dome have questioned whether the Colts pipe in artificial crowd noise in an effort to disrupt the road team's offense. Though the Colts have denied any such chicanery (thanks, Tiki), the suspicions remain.

And the suspicions will only grow stronger after Sunday's game against the Patriots. During the first play of the fourth quarter, the noise from the crowd contained a strange effect. It almost sounded like my kid was working the "Whammy Bar" while playing Guitar Hero.

We don't know whether that noise could be heard in the stadium, but it was obvious on the television broadcast. And it invites speculation as to whether the Colts are indeed piping in phony music -- and whether there was a malfunction of some sort on Sunday that offered proof of it.

(name for link)

14
by Blair Wendell (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:34pm

Why is no one mentioning the decision to kick a field goal by Indy at 4th and 2?

15
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:34pm

Re: #8

Mike Florio noticed that, too:

4. Milli Vanilli moment in Indy?

In the past, teams that have visited the RCA Dome have questioned whether the Colts pipe in artificial crowd noise in an effort to disrupt the road team's offense. Though the Colts have denied any such chicanery (thanks, Tiki), the suspicions remain.

And the suspicions will only grow stronger after Sunday's game against the Patriots. During the first play of the fourth quarter, the noise from the crowd contained a strange effect. It almost sounded like my kid was working the "Whammy Bar" while playing Guitar Hero.

We don't know whether that noise could be heard in the stadium, but it was obvious on the television broadcast. And it invites speculation as to whether the Colts are indeed piping in phony music -- and whether there was a malfunction of some sort on Sunday that offered proof of it.

16
by Boggle (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:35pm

"First, on the Colts pass interference penalties in the first half, I am OK with both calls. The second one (the Wayne one) had some people howling in the bar we were at, but that call is made all the time in the NFL. If a cornerback runs under the receiver, lets the receiver back into him, then starts easing up, they throw the flag. It’s a judgment call, because you can argue that the corner was playing the ball, but if the ref thinks he’s just slowing the receiver down he makes the call. I see it all the time."

I disagree with this on two counts.

1) I don't think Hobbs did slow down - at least not until Wayne grabbed hold of him. If anything it should have been offensive pass interference. Even the Indy Star live blog had this to say (link in my name)

"8:58 - Won't read this here often, but the Colts get an absolute gift of a penalty call on Ellis Hobbs. Pass interference, but it was a bad call. Hobbs was running in front of Wayne and slowed. It almost looked as if Wayne shoved Hobbs to save an interception on the deep ball. Anyway, Colts first-and-goal at the 6."

2) Once a defensive back gets cleanly ahead of the WR, I don't see why he does not have the right to run at whatever speed he wants. The WR should have to run around the guy to get to the ball - that is the penalty for allowing the DB to get position.

If that call is correct, then it makes a corner back's job almost impossible.

17
by Ben (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:37pm

re: 14 It was a broadcast glitch. There was nothing like that at all in the stadium. I actually thought it wasn't all that loud this year compared to games past.

18
by MRH (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:37pm

thank you for putting this in a separate thread.

19
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:41pm

One other thing -- as long as it's not overused, FreezeCam is actually pretty damned cool.

20
by Paul (London,UK) (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:41pm

Mystyc made a post in the Armageddon Thread :

"The greatest compliment I can give both of these teams is that they made each other look ordinary. The idea that any other team - even my hometown Steelers - will be able to recreate this is just misguided. Both teams are miles ahead of everyone else in the league."

Sounds about right to me.

21
by Starshatterer (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:43pm

Joe B (#11 )--

I don't think you can reasonably claim that any first-round pick "has already outplayed his draft position."

What, they should have gone in Round Zero?

22
by billsfan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:44pm

Good to see someone finally calling the Randy Moss end-zone push-off play, even if it wasn't as spectacular as the earlier ones.
4:
Your team just won a huge game, yet you whine about every call that went against them. You wonder why there's a general dislike for the New England Sports Fan?

23
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:48pm

"
Good to see someone finally calling the Randy Moss end-zone push-off play, even if it wasn’t as spectacular as the earlier ones."

Gah. I thought Hayden should have been called for PI on that play for climbing moss's back.

Moss should have been called for one earlier, but the play in the fourth quarter was bullshit. He got position, and just stood there. Its not his job to get out of the way. There was no pushoff, his hands never even got near Hayden.

24
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:48pm

I think Colts fans have every right to say “the injuries were the biggest reason we didn’t beat the Patriots today.� Most Patriots fans would probably say that was whining, but not this Patriots fan.
This Patriot fan wouldn't either, but so what? One could just equally say that the depleted defense was the biggest reason the Pats lost the AFCCG last January, after dominating the first half. Big deal, depth is an important part of a team's strength. If your first guys are absolutely top of the line, and the back-ups are scrubs who can't get the job done decently, you are not a very good team (or at least, you are not as good as a team with more depth).

#2:
I agree. Addai had a monster game, and if the Colts win out he could well be having an MVP season, but take away the 73-yarder and the Pats would have happily signed off before the game to a 120-yard running, 50-yard receiving game for him.

And it is now entirely and painfully obvious that the Pats do need a strong bruising RB. Maroney is a good player, but he cannot be the only back, and in some cases even the principal one.

25
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:50pm

"Maroney is a good player, but he cannot be the only back, and in some cases even the principal one."

I still think hes playing "hurt". He was much more physical at the beginning of last year. I'm hoping he comes around, but I'm not sure he will.

26
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:53pm

Great, great game, and I can only hope for a rematch in January, with both teams healthy. The team I was rooting for lost, but I almost am glad they didn't win by having the margin of victory provided by that sort of PI call. I can't even say anything useful about that call, because I don't understand pass interference anymore.

Harrison was interesting to watch, because his strenghts and weaknessses were on display. He just sucked on Addai's long touchdown, yet his interception later was a thing of beauty. I'd bet that when Manning sees a safetey's back turned like that, Manning is about 98% sure of getting a completion, but Harrison has great habits and instincts, and few safeties would have read the receiver like he did, and turn in time to make the interception.

Randy Moss singled up fifty yards downfield on any but the very, very best, or most fortunate defensive backs, is a gross mismatch, no matter how close the db is to Moss. How many people weren't pretty certain that ball was going to be caught when it was halfway there?

27
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:01pm

On the first Brady interception, it was a bad, short throw, but also one that Moss would have had a good chance on, and Stallworth none whatsoever. I think Brady is just spoiled this year. He just has to remember who he's throwing to.

28
by DJH (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:02pm

It's great to read the reasonable and expert commentary from the writers of the site (thank you) and then read the rambling biased lunacy from PatsFan. (Of course PatsFan...that post doesn't compare to your asshole comments about Dungy in the game thread...but I guess a night of sleep has take away some of your bitterness.)

Great halftime adjustments by the Pats coaching staff...especially sending 2 or more WRs past 15 yards, stretching out the Colts secondary and minimizing the safety impact on the run.

Sure injuries probably played a big part in the game...but that's the NFL, every team deals with injuries every week.

I was at the game and I didn't hear the crowd noise skipping thing...not sure what's up with that, but if it's being piped in...that's not cool...throw the book at them, cheating has no place in athletic competition.

On the bomb to Stallworth...Freeney was held and I have no idea how it was missed. The blocker was positioned QB-side, had a straight arm extended to Freeney's outside shoulder pad and held their for most of the play...how an NFL ref missed that...beyond me, it wasn't a "no call" either...Freeney was against single coverage, 5-step drop, easily would have gotten to Brady, complete would have altered the play. Couldn't really see the catch (other end of the field) but by the video screens it looked like a good pushout call.

Can't add much visual value-add to the PI discussions...all were either other side of the field (left) or on the other side of the field (Pats-side)...but the 2nd Pats PI looked ticky-tack IMO...but I thought the Moss OPI was sound. If you allow WRs to back down secondary like that...1st and goal red zone proficiency around the league will go to 100% overnight. 3 wide outs...5 step route into the defender, jam him and turnaround...TD. Any QB in this league can complete that pass every time.

On the Belichick/Dungy "snuff" as being reported...I didn't see it...we are 7 rows up Colts side and had a pretty good view of the interaction. They shook hands, did the "good game" required comments and went on their way...what did they expect them to do?

Good game..felt really, really close to the AFCCG atmosphere from last year. I say "let's play two!"

29
by TomC (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:03pm

Slowpoke McCrappypants from the Dolphins

Wow, if that were my name, I'd play under a pseudonym, too. But I'd try to choose something more manly-sounding that "Cameron Worrell".

30
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:16pm

"Of course PatsFan…that post doesn’t compare to your asshole comments about Dungy in the game thread"

Nothing he said about Dungy wasn't warranted. The man is a despicable human being, despite his media rep.

31
by Cyrus (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:20pm

I haven't read through the other comments yet, so it may have been mentioned. But I have an acceptable solution for Pass Interference.

I think that every pass interference call should be reviewed by the booth, because you really can't see everything on the field in the split second. Flag it as "Something happened" and let the booth review who did what. It would slow it down about 2 times a game... I think that would be better than 50 yard penalties.

Or, you could have two different calls. If it is blatant, the call is made on the field. If it isn't blatant, the call is reviewed by the booth. And you can challenge "blatancy" to have it reviewed if you suspect it was a phony call.

Actually, that might be an idea-- you have two "Pass interence" challenges each game. If you think they messed it up, challenge it.

Or, to combine with the 15 yard penalty idea, have the same sort of blatancy rule-- if it was blatant that someone tripped up the receiver, they get the ball at the spot of the foul. If it wasn't obvious, 15 yards.

So. pick one of those many solutions.

32
by Fnor (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:21pm

I disagree with Aaron (and a few others). What I took from this game is that good defence can make both offences look rather normal. The Colts played good defence in the first 3 quarters, the pats played good defence in the last. If a team like Pittsburgh (or maybe Dallas) can play good defence the whole game and keep pressure, I think we'd quite likely get another game like the one last night; a good, close game.

33
by CA (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:22pm

Re: Ned: As a Colts fan, it is hard to be too disappointed. They played without two starting linebackers, their No. 1 or No. 1A receiver
and Bill Barnwell: and without Mavin Harrison, they didn’t have their top wideout

I'd say that, at this point in his career, Harrison is the No. 1B or No. 2 receiver in Indianapolis and the second best wideout on the team. Wayne has had the higher DVOA and DPAR in 2004, 2006, and so far this year. In fact, if we follow FO convention and classify Clark as a WR, there's a case to be made that Harrison has fallen to No. 2A, No. 2B or even No. 3 (or perhaps just No. 1C).

Re: Ned: On NFL Countdown, Tom Jackson picked the Colts and then later said the game was going to be won with special teams. Let’s just say that was a highly unlikely outcome

But Vinatieri is the clutchiest kicker ever!

Re: Bill Moore: I admit that Moss pushes off quite a bit

Moss probably is on the receiving end of more jump ball passes in the end zone than any other WR in the NFL, and that is the situation most likely to generate OPI. Consequently, he may well have more pushoffs than most other wide receivers. That said, I don't think he pushes off more frequently than is typical when he is in those situations. I reject the notion that Moss is more prone to pushing off than most other players after one adjusts for the number and type of passes that he sees.

34
by Herm? (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:26pm

The disparity in penalties was frustrating at first, with the out-of-bounnds catch and the Samuel Pass Interference calls (the Samuel was correct), but then it was downright SHOCKING afterwards.
Pass Interference Hobbs call: Incorrect
Addai 70-yards run after catch for TD, 2 blocks on the back were not called (check your Tivo)
Illegal man downfield on #67 wrong(2.5 yards downfield, again check your Tivo against the CBS blue line of scrimmage)
Pass Interference on Moss: WRONG - this was a makeup call for last week's game (I didn't think that was possible, but Colts ownership has been in Al Davis territory the last few years when it comes to complaints)
They got the leg whip on Light correct.
They only called holding against Indy when Warren was in the open and being tackled by a guy with a fistful of shirt.

So I would assert that if Harrison and Ugoh were healthy and Gonzalez stays healthy, and Adalius Thomas is healthy, this game still favors New England, but the game plans are much different, so the outcome is in question.
- Freeney and Mathis are as awesome as Light and Kaczur are bad
- The Pats will spend the bye-week learning how to not over-pursue and how to tackle one on one.

35
by Al 45 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:26pm

re: 16

re: 14 It was a broadcast glitch. There was nothing like that at all in the stadium. I actually thought it wasn’t all that loud this year compared to games past.

Maybe, but if there was a broadcast glitch, why didn't the announcers voice skip at all while the crowd noise was skipping violently?

I'm not saying this is definitive proof, but there have been several accusations against Indy for piping in crowd noise. Just extremely weird to hear the crowd noise skipping with the announcers sounding normal.

36
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:27pm

#29:
Nothing he said about Dungy wasn’t warranted. The man is a despicable human being, despite his media rep.

I think this is unwarranted. None of us knows anything about what kind of a man Dungy is (just like we don't know a thing about Belichick, really). He definitely seems sanctimonious and judgmental, and his support for a homophobic organization, though not unexpected from a religious fundamentalist like him, is a stain on his reputation. But let's not get overboard, thinking that just because someone is a public personality, we have sufficient knowledge and the right to evaluate their true character. Criticize their actions if you wish, and leave it at that. Especially, let's leave this stuff out of game discussions, or we'll end up sounding like morganja & his/her "moral majority" buddies.

37
by Boggle (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:28pm

I agree that you cannot limit OPI to a 15 yard penalty or any defensive back beat deep would automatically tackle the WR. However, do you think coaches should be able to challenge PI calls?

On the one hand, a 40+ yard penalty can have a huge impact on close game - more so than almost any other penalty (except possibly one that affects possession). It seems everything possible should be done to get the decision right.

On the other hand, there might be some types of interference that can be seen by the officials in real time but that is difficult to pick up on the tape.

Overall, I think I would allow it to be reviewable, with the standard proviso that for the decision to be overturned, the evidence must be indisputable. It seems that, at least in some cases, that proviso would be met and it could avoid the controversy of having a big game decided by a clearly incorrect decision.

38
by Fergasun (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:28pm

Great game. I hope there isn't a re-match in the playoffs. It would be fun to see either one of these teams get upset in the playoffs like what happened in 2005. But I guess you all want to CROWN THEIR ASSES...

Typical NFL analyst tripe was to repeat "teams can't go undefeated in the NFL now, it's just too hard"... we'll see if that changes now that NE has gotten past the Colts.

Did anyone else see Lobot escorting Belichick after the game?

39
by Hemlock (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:30pm

I hope most Colts fans on this site are mature enough to appreciate this fine game for what it was, and to know that even when your team loses, you can still act like a winner. Just rest easy knowing there will almost certainly be a rematch.

I think the injuries and the awful calls against the pats even each other out.

This was one of those classic '02-'03 "Patriots just win" games. They won ugly with some big plays at the end. It's the kind of football we haven't seen out of the pats since their last championship. One for the books.

40
by James, London (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:33pm

"Of course PatsFan…that post doesn’t compare to your asshole comments about Dungy in the game thread�

Nothing he said about Dungy wasn’t warranted. The man is a despicable human being, despite his media rep. "

This is going to be one of those threads, isn't it?

41
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:36pm

"support for a homophobic organization,"

Its not a homophobic organization, its like the KKK of homophobia. They openly persecute gay people. They're that bad. The fact that Dungy openly supports them, and is the face of them, is awful. The fact that it doesn't get any media play time is absurd.

42
by James, London (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:37pm

Back to football, if the Colts could get any Field position from their Special Teams, they'd be a really good team.

And while I think that getting four starters (esp. Harrison and Ugoh) back is big for the Colts, homefield + Eugene Wilson is nearly as big a gain for New England. The playoff rematch should be a good one.

43
by RickD (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:37pm

re: 20
Adrian Petersen, drafted 7th overall, has outplayed his draft position.

Michael Jordan, drafted 3rd overall, certainly outplayed his draft position.

re: Maroney
Maroney had looked very good against the Redskins. I don't think he's hurt. He does not match up well against the Colts' D. He's quick but not terribly powerful, and the Colts' D is quick enough to catch up to him. A strong power running game still looks like it would be a good way to beat the Colts, but the Pats don't have that.

re: first pick. It's not that Brady cannot throw the long pass. See his 55-yarder to Moss. He just underthrew that particular long pass. He's not John Elway. It was a bad decision.

re: Addai. I suspect BB made the conscious to decision to let Addai be the one gaining yards, as opposed to Clark or Wayne. The 73-yard TD pass was not part of the plan, and that was due to bad tackling. BB has complained about that before. I noticed in the second half that Addai was having Barry Sanders-type production. He'd get 10+ yards on one carry and be dropped in the backfield on the next. Don't know what to make of it except it really is looking like the Colts got the better RB in the first round last year.

44
by MDZ (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:37pm

Rich Conley
Um, Tony Dungy is a despicable human being? Any facts to base this on? Besides the fact that he spoke to a group that has anti-gay beliefs? BTW, it was irrelevant to his talk, the group may have anti-gay beliefs but it isn't the main issue they are concerned about, and Dungy has never made a public comment one way or the other so who knows for sure what his viewpoints are?

#33
2 blocks in the back on the Addai run? I don't think so, the only one that I saw was Rodney Harrison shoving down a Pats DB. Take the win, don't whine about the refs. Simply, the Pats were the better team and made better plays than the Colts. It's ok to call a fan of the losing team a whiner if they complain. But to complain about the refs without being provoked by fans of the other team just shouldn't be done.

45
by Hemlock (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:39pm

and re: penalties...

A receiver is allowed to run at whatever speed he likes, pretty much boxing out a CB like a center does in basketball. Why should an offense get 40 free yards because a CB does the same thing? There was no excuse for that penalty.

The NFL calls WAY, WAY too many contact penalties anyway. You wanna see men play a sport, watch old hockey games (or even well-officiated new hockey games). You pretty much only get called for flagrant stuff and ALL of the ticky-tack stuff is allowed. That's how the NFL used to be, too, until the owners and commisioner decided that they wanted to be more like the NBA for some reason. There's no excuse for refs having that much control over the games, and there's no excuse for turning football into a bunch of girls whining about calls (because getting calls is nearly as effective a strategy as good offense and defense).

46
by Mike W (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:39pm

#32 CA -
Oh, God. Moss for years has pushed off in the end zone even when he doesn't need to. I agree that the OPI call yesterday was bogus - he did nothng wrong, and in general played a pretty clean game. But even with his height advantage, on a play where he and the DB aren't moving very quickly he will push off most of the time.

He's damn, damn good though. That one hander over the middle was a thing of beauty.

47
by JJcruiser (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:39pm

Tanier: "I am OK with both calls"

Good thing you aren't a ref, Mike.

The Hobbs penalty was the worst, but both were bogus. On the Hobbs penalty, it doesn't matter if he had position and slowed down, because Reggie Wayne tackled him and they still called it defensive pass interference. That was the worst PI call I've ever seen.

48
by joel in atlanta (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:40pm

my own semi-reasonable commentary:
- I'm not even sure if Phil Simms realized Ugoh was missing from the game. Sorry, but when a team's starting left tackle is out, it should be a point of emphasis. Maybe even more of a game-changing sub than Marvin Harrison's absence.
- The game was very well executed. It really had a "chess match" feel to it. Some of the red zone play calling was superb and the Welker td was a thing of beauty: great pass and perfect route that enabled w.w. to get into the corner of the end zone.
- I thought the game was very well refereed (espeically by a relatively new ref instead of some like Carey or Hercules. The PI calls were somewhat arguable, but not outrageous and the Morehead out of bounds call got reversed, so no harm done.

49
by Herm? (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:41pm

also, from my #33, I would say that Freeney was held a few times, but only leg whipped once.

50
by Nathan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:41pm

The disparity in penalties was partially so large because of

The spiked football delay of game (which is always called.)

The Gunner held out of bounds (which is always called.)

And the PI on the Moss long throw being declined because he caught it.

Not that disparity between penalties even matters.

-----------

Ugoh is much much better than Charles Johnson
Harrison is light years better than Moorehead.

We almost won the game anyway. I'm fine with this outcome.

------------

The PI on Hobbs against Wayne was valid. The first view of the play made it look like Wayne just outright tackled Hobbs because they were out of view.

The next replay shows Hobbs stare down Wayne all the way until he turns and cuts off Wayne with contact.

It was called exactly as you'd expect. If Hobbs was instead watching the ball, he wouldn't have careened into Wayne and slowed him down.

The PI on Gonzales was as PI as PI gets.

The Moss play I have no idea about because I stopped rewinding and watching the plays.

The PI ended up costing an injury to Marlin Jackson, and a TD so whatever.

Why do we keep Moorehead anyway? I've never seen him do anything. There has to be a free agent out there better than him.

Hell, put Standleford in.

51
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:41pm

"re: first pick. It’s not that Brady cannot throw the long pass. See his 55-yarder to Moss. He just underthrew that particular long pass. He’s not John Elway. It was a bad decision."

Which was 5 yards underthrown. Moss had the defender beat and had to come back to the ball. Watch the tape of that play.

52
by MDZ (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:41pm

Sorry, my comments about the organization are wrong. His talk was about fatherhood, poor choice, yes. But this doesn't mean Dungy is evil.

53
by Nathan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:42pm

#47:

You mean Ninja Kicked. Freeney was Ninja Kicked.

54
by JJcruiser (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:43pm

Administrators:

Can you please kill posts concerning with Tony Dungy's personal/religious beliefs and the resulting debate about whether they are homophobic, anti-gay, pro-gay, or whatever people want to call it? I'm sure we all have our personal opinions that probably differ quite a bit, and if it keeps going, it's going to destroy the thread.

55
by RickD (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:44pm

re: 33
Light is not "bad". He had a bad day. He can be beaten by quick all-pro DEs at the level of Freeney and Jason Taylor. Most weeks he does just fine.

re: PI
I looked up the pass interference rule during the game. Basically the rule is "the following things are pass interference" and lists a few things. But it also says that other things, unlisted, may also be called pass interference. There is no point in having PI appeals since it is a judgment call, and the way the rule is written, it is basically "if the ref says there was pass interference, there was pass interference".

re: Dungy, Belichick
Could we keep the personal comments about the character of the coaches and the players out of it? That line of discussion only brings ugliness.

56
by Nathan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:44pm

#45:

Wayne didn't tackle him, he tripped. Watch the replay again. Not that it matters since once a PI is called, I've never seen a penalty called after an initial PI unless it was on the return after the catch.

57
by DJH (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:46pm

"Nothing he said about Dungy wasn’t warranted. The man is a despicable human being, despite his media rep."

His personal and religious views conflict with yours and mine. And that makes him a despicable human being?

Pot. Kettle. Kettle. Pot.

58
by Fergasun (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:46pm

Can we start to accept disagreements with officiating as part of the game? I did a year ago and it has given me a less stressful experience. I'd say 99.5% of the time officials do not dictate the result of the game, even though us fans might not agree.

If a CB cannot armbar a receiver, than I don't see how a CB can effectively "bodybar" the receiver by just getting in front of him and slowing down (I suppose that is what the ref thought he saw).

59
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:50pm

"His personal and religious views conflict with yours and mine. And that makes him a despicable human being?"

No, openly supporting the persecution of people because they have differing beliefs is what makes him a despicable human being. Advocating the persecution of gays is no different from advocating the persectution of any other group, whether it be blacks, jews, muslims, whatever.

60
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:51pm

The next replay shows Hobbs stare down Wayne all the way until he turns and cuts off Wayne with contact.

It was called exactly as you’d expect. If Hobbs was instead watching the ball, he wouldn’t have careened into Wayne and slowed him down.
Uh? Are you saying a defender is supposed to run all the way with his head turned backwards? Hobbs did exactly what a defender is supposed to do: he ran step by step with Wayne, who knew where the ball was going to go. When Wayne looked up for the ball, Hobbs turned back and, with one step advantage on the receiver, went right for the ball, and he was ahead on it. Wayne wrapped Hobbs up/tangled up with him (depending on how you judge intention) and they both fell. It was either nothing, or OPI. Seriously, folks.

61
by Nathan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:52pm

If a CB cannot armbar a receiver, than I don’t see how a CB can effectively “bodybar� the receiver by just getting in front of him and slowing down (I suppose that is what the ref thought he saw).

It isn't the CB getting into the WR, and slowing down.

It's the CB getting into the WR, and slowing the WR down.

Big difference. Meaning you cannot do what Hobbs did which was.

Run not watching the ball at all, turn around once you get into the WR's body to look for the ball.

That was contact which slowed the WR down. So it's PI.

If you want it to not be PI, you stop before you get to the WR and try to catch the ball, or stop him from catching it by hitting him after his hands get on it.

62
by mmm... sacrilicious (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:54pm

#20: Come on, that's nitpicking on semantics. It's totally reasonable to argue that Freeney (e.g.) should have gone in the top 3 instead of 13th overall. When you consider that, on the trade value chart, the 3rd overall pick is worth more than twice as much as the 13th overall pick, that's substantial.

63
by Purds (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:54pm

Great game. Loved watching it. As a Colts fan, I was bummed about the outcome, but I would happily watch something like this again in the AFCC game.

Now, some would regard these as excuses, but I like to think of this as my list of reasons to be optimistic that the worm might turn in January:

1) We need more than 2 healthy WR's in a game. Not sure why the Colts don't have anyone else to turn to, but they had only Wayne and Moorehead after Gonzales dislocated his left thumb early on. Only 2 WR's not the best plan, regardless of whether FO calls Clark a WR or not.
2) Dungy seems to be holing people out of games, trying to stay healthy for the long term. I hope those 4 are nearly healthy, not really hurt. (The 4 were Harrison, Ugoh, and the two linebackers.
3) Big games turn on big plays. Hopefully, the Colts will make more of them: hold onto the TD pass, Gonzales (though he had a dislocated thumb by then); catch the long bomb Manning put on your hands on 3rd and 2, Wayne; Catch the easy pass over the midde, Moorehead!

I thought the Colts got many calls yesterday, though listening to the Pats radio post-game show, they did not think the calls were bad. They actually argued with callers that the refs had a good, well-called game. Go figure.

64
by MDZ (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:54pm

Rich, can we all have a truce and talk about the game. You hate Dungy and think he's a terrible person, fine. If you want to discuss this more start up a free blogger page. You've made your point, let it go. I apologize to the rest of this board and the outsiders for getting baited into this discussion and I'm sorry I responded to earlier discussions.

65
by lagfish (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:54pm

Is Moss OCD or something? He avoids contact more than Monk.

66
by Nathan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:56pm

Uh? Are you saying a defender is supposed to run all the way with his head turned backwards?

Did I say that? No. He needs to stop before he contacts the receiver.

Hobbs did exactly what a defender is supposed to do: he ran step by step with Wayne, who knew where the ball was going to go. When Wayne looked up for the ball, Hobbs turned back and, with one step advantage on the receiver, went right for the ball, and he was ahead on it.

Except he went into the Wide receiver. No contact past 5 yards. No hitting the Wideout before the ball gets there.

Wayne wrapped Hobbs up/tangled up with him (depending on how you judge intention) and they both fell.

Hobbs tripped up and the both fell.

It was either nothing, or OPI. Seriously, folks.

You cannot run into the Wideout before the ball gets there.

67
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:56pm

"Run not watching the ball at all, turn around once you get into the WR’s body to look for the ball."

Nathan, go back and watch the game again. Its VERY CLEAR that Hobbs looked up, saw the ball, and then stepped in front of Wayne. He was tracking the ball in the air, not the reciever. It was perfect coverage, which apparantly, is illegal against the Colts.

I distinctly seem to remember you arguing that the "Faceguarding" call on Hobbs last year was right... and then the NFL issued an apology.

68
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:57pm

Could all comments relating to behavior having nothing to do with football be banned, until that time that the behavior might result in some sanction from the league? I mean, if the behavior has no possible impact on game results, why should the threads here contain the moralistic bloviating about stuff that has no possible influence on the performance of the teams in the NFL? It is about as relevant as comments regarding the war in Iraq.

69
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:58pm

MDZ, I didn't bring it up. DJH took a cheap shot at PatsFan.

70
by Nathan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:58pm

I distinctly seem to remember you arguing that the “Faceguarding� call on Hobbs last year was right… and then the NFL issued an apology.

So being wrong once indicates that I can't be right again? Thanks for clearing that up Rich.

71
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:58pm

You cannot run into the Wideout before the ball gets there.N
Neither can the wideout run into a defender who's clearly going for the ball, and has a good step advantage to it. That's OPI.

72
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:59pm

"You cannot run into the Wideout before the ball gets there."

He can't run into anyone. Hes infront of the Wide oUt. Once the ball is in the air, he has just as much claim to it as Wayne. Wayne tried to run THROUGH Hobbs.

73
by Kulko (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:59pm

Re: Pats being outplayed
funny how perceptions go.

I would have said, they let a perfectly winnable game slip away by being terrible sloppy with tackling and penalties, and then in the forth quarter the Colts O imploded just enough to allow them to come back.

74
by DJH (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:59pm

"Its not a homophobic organization, its like the KKK of homophobia. They openly persecute gay people. They’re that bad. The fact that Dungy openly supports them, and is the face of them, is awful. The fact that it doesn’t get any media play time is absurd. "

Yea, the Indiana Family Institute (linked in my name) is the KKK of homophobia. Are you kidding me? Have you seen this group? It's a bunch of bible thumping old people from BFE Indiana small towns. They are close minded knuckleheads, but the KKK? Yea...they are driving around in their 1995 Buick Park Avenues kidnapping gay people off the streets in Broad Ripple and lynching them. Just before they scuttle off to MCL Cafeteria or Bob Evans for the Early Bird specials.

Rich...one piece of free advice...why don't you stick to inventing and "knowing everything" about football...at least with that topic you come off as 1/10th credible.

75
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:59pm

68.

No, it indicated that you'll continue to argue about a call that is clearly wrong, despite huge amount of evidence.

76
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:03pm

72. The indiana family institute is a local sect of the American Family Association, which is active, violent, and openly encourages the beating of gays.

77
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:03pm

#26, slo-moe, you are entirely correct that Brady can't make the same sort of throws to Stallworth (who is a good receiver), that he can routinely toss in Moss' direction.

78
by Otis Taylor \'89 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:03pm

I watched the game DVRed after listening to it on a DC to Boston car trip with 7 and 5 yr old daughters in the car.

Two big things I notice:
- The officials were really bad against the Pats, including the no calls on O Pass interference in end zone with Hobbs, another O Pass interference involving Rodney Harrison and D Pass interference on Faulk;
- Richard Seymour is a beast. We forget he was in the top 2 or 3 D Linemen in the league a few years ago before multiple injuries got him.

The Colts D are fast and hard hitting, but can anyone believe they can hold up for 16+ games? Wasn't that the problem in Tampa Bay?

79
by Nathan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:03pm

re 66: It wasn't face guarding because the rule was removed. How in the hell does that mean I will continue to argue a call that is clearly wrong.

He did face guard. It just wasn't a rule anymore.

80
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:05pm

77

You were arguing that it was legitimate PI. It wasn't. We told you it wasn't because the rule had been removed. You continued to argue.

81
by Whizzinator (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:07pm

The problem with the Hobbs PI call (well, one of two major problems) is that once the CB turns back to the ball he can make contact and has an equal right to the ball. That's what the rule is. There's simply no way to watch the replay and not see that Hobbs did exactly that. So, if someone argues that the contact justifies the penalty, they do not have the rule correct. It is simply not the case that a CB can be flagged for cutting into the WR lane and slowing him down while playing the ball...it is not the rule.

The other problem is that Wayne mugged Hobbs while Hobbs was laying out for the overthrow. It's a no-brainer OPI there.

82
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:09pm

Rich, will you please just shut up? There are literally thousands of blogs which feature political or civil rights commentary. This isn't one of them. Why are you compelled to give us your opinion about matters that have no possible influence on the outcome of NFL football games? Here's a clue: No person here cares one iota about your opinions on these matters. To be fair, they don't care about mine, either. If it can't have an impact on a team's performance, will you kindly just put a sock in it? Pretty please?

83
by Dave (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:09pm

#1,

I think what he meant by it was simply that the Colts penalties were small in yards overall, but very costly - the false start by Johnson (which I won't hold against him, Green was lined up so far outside that he was just plain confused and going to get beat anyway) killed a drive and contributed to the missed FG, and then the hold by Gandy and false start by Diem destroyed what to that point looked like a sure game-clinching drive.

The Pats penalties were bigger in yardage of course, but in the end, the Colts lapses cost them just as much. Some of that is luck, of course, but still.

The 2nd DPI, the one that is most debated, was something I missed from the stands and it was right in front of me. All I saw was Wayne's feet getting tangled and him falling - it looked like he fell on his own. I didn't see what his upper body did, if he tackled, fell on, pushed, etc. The Pats fan right next to me actually said it was a legit call, while other Colts fans didn't seem to agree. I'll have to see it on TV when they do NFL replay.

Overall, I'd say both coaches have plenty to get on their teams about this week. There were a ton of mistakes and missed opportunities that elite teams shouldn't be making.

[Rich, despicable human being? I'm quite interested to know why. (Please let me know if there's a way to continue off site, I don't want to clutter the comments.)]

84
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:11pm

". Why are you compelled to give us your opinion about matters that have no possible influence on the outcome of NFL football games?"

Because people like DJH in post 27 keep bringing the goddamn thing up. If you don't want people to give their oppinion, don't bring it up with personal jabs at people. If you are going to state that Tony Dungy is a good person (which is what DJH is doing in his jab at PatsFan), I'm going to have a problem with that.

85
by Nathan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:11pm
86
by MDZ (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:11pm

Hobbs didn't run into Wayne, Hobbs slowed down and let Wayne run into him which is illegal and called every other week in the NFL. You can't say Hobbs made a play on the ball because his move was at least 8 yards from where he could have had it. He got called for a PI because he played the man, not the ball. I can see a basis for the call, but even I'll admit it was touchy . If it was the fourth quarter and not the second I doubt the call gets made because refs typically let a bit more contact go late.

87
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:12pm

Yeah, Otis, if Seymour is on the sidelines yesterday, while Harrison or Ugoh plays, it's an entirely different game, which isn't to say the outcome is guaranteed to be reversed. Just a different flavor of game.

88
by Nick (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:12pm

He spoke at a fundraiser for a hate group. If it was the KKK, as someone referenced earlier, nobody would be sugarcoating it as "Well he made a speech to a group with some anti-black beliefs". Whether you have a problem with it or not is a matter of personal morality, but don't be disingenuous about calling it what it was.

Also, I think some people are looking into this Laurence Maroney thing a bit too much. The Pats, especially this year but in years past as well, just don't run the ball that much. Their carries are up there b/c of all the garbage time, but they are the definition of a pass first offense.

I think we're all getting a little spoiled with Peterson, and we look at someone like Maroney and wonder why he isn't going for 100 yds a game. I agree he's probably not a top 10 back, but I don't think we can definitively say that he "can't" be or that he can't carry the load, when he really hasn't been asked to yet. We'll see what happens in late Nov/Dec when the Pats are playing outdoor games in the northeast.

89
by Herm? (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:13pm

I would love to see a FO write up - I think Maroney has a tell, but I don't know what it is. The Colts know, going back to last year, when he is going to run the ball...and that he can't block.
-Please come back Corey Dillon-

(Yes, the gunner call was correct, and the spiked ball call was correct but called against the wrong guy.)

90
by Nathan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:14pm

re 78:

I.E. where the hell did someone say, the rule doesn't exist anymore, and I said yes it does, or continued to argue that it did, or some other nonsense Rich?

91
by Fnor (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:14pm

I think this thread is a perfect example of why Rule #1 needs to migrate to the FOMB.

92
by Todd (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:15pm

Regardless of whether or not the PI calls were justified/legitimate... as a football fan, I would like to see those plays NOT be penalties. That's my two cents. As long as you're not mugging a guy, I think a defender has just as much right to the ball as an offensive player.

93
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:16pm

"think a defender has just as much right to the ball as an offensive player."

Thats the rule.

94
by Yaguar (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:16pm

41: Addai had Barry Sanders-like production for two reasons.

1. He had lots of big gains on crazy runs because the Pats forgot how to tackle and some of their linebackers are really slow.
2. He got dropped in the backfield a lot because Charlie Johnson sucks at blocking the stretch play as a left tackle. (He was fine as a right tackle. It's obvious that the Colts need someone else to play in Ugoh's place when he's injured.)

95
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:17pm

Yes, Rich, I understand you have a problem. Never mind.

96
by Dave (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:18pm

Ugh, I had the page loaded long before I read and commented. Sorry to re-engage Rich. Rich, nevermind.

97
by Boggle (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:19pm

From PFT (link in my name)

" LEAGUE LOOKING INTO CROWD NOISE PHENOMENON AT RCA DOME

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello tells us that the league is looking into the strange audio phenomenon that occurred near the start of the fourth quarter on Sunday between the Patriots at the Colts.

As explained by some Internet hack on SportingNews.com, the crowd noise made a strange vibrating sound (and then got considerably quieter) in the middle of a New England offensive play.

The audio is right here. (And to prove that we didn't doctor it, the same phenomenon can be heard at the 2:23 mark of the highlight package on NFL.com.)"

98
by Led (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:20pm

It is simply not the case that a CB can be flagged for cutting into the WR lane and slowing him down while playing the ball…it is not the rule.

The question is whether, in the official's judgment, the defender is playing the ball. Just because the defender turns his head doesn't mean he is playing the ball, particularly if it appears that he is intentionally slowing down to impede the progress of the receiver. You can't pretend to play the ball and get in the receiver's way. I don't think the Hobbs play was a clear example of that so I'd have gone with a non-call there, but it's a judgment call.

99
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:20pm

93. Yeah Will, I do have a problem. When someone says something really offensive, I say that its offensive.

If someone (DJH in this case) is going to say something really stupid and offensive, I'm not going to let it stand.

100
by Nick (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:22pm

Dillon started working out, according to his agent, "a couple weeks ago". He turned into a malcontent the last two years in NE and now he's been munching cheetos for months. No thanks.

101
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:23pm

Heh...

According to WEEI up here, Peter King is planning to write something about PipedInAudioGate.

Of course, I imagine the easiest way to settle it would be to listen to the individual radio broadcasts and see if it shows up. Anyone have NFL FieldPass and take a listen?

102
by MDZ (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:24pm

#90
Agreed. I'd like to see a rule emphasis change allowing a bit more contact down the field. My previous points on the subject were all demonstrating that I thought the call was valid based on the current PI rules, even though I wish the ref used his discretion to not call it.

Overall I have to say that my viewpoint of the game was similar to Kulko's. The Colts were lucky they were ahead and the Colts offense (outside of Addai) was beaten thoroughly by the Pats' defense all day. Finally, Wes Welker may be Edgerrin James of Punt returning. He's no Devin Hester, but it just seems that he always breaks a tackle and gets 10-15 yards with the occasional 30 yarder, just like Edge would get five yards a pop with the occasional 20 yarder.

103
by DJH (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:24pm

"The indiana family institute is a local sect of the American Family Association, which is active, violent, and openly encourages the beating of gays."

Now you are just lying. Flat-out 100% lying...."a local sect"? Are you kidding me? It's a bunch of bible toting hicks it's not al qaeda. There is really no end to the stuff you pretend to "know" is there?

The guy did a speech at a fundraising dinner and now he's a horrible human being. Oh...and he coaches the Colts.

Guess we ought to include all relevant information here, huh Rich?

104
by Mike B in VA (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:27pm

Why did I bother to read this thread?
I love FO, and generally like reading all the threads, even the ridiculous Pats homer takeover versions. If this were any of the forums where I moderate normally, however, several posters would be enjoying temporary bans this week while they reconsidered their posting habits. Some of you really, really need to grow up.
I don't think this game settled anything. The post in the game thread about both teams making each other look mediocre says it all. I almost feel for the Cowboys, who will most likely get clobbered by one of these teams in the SB.
Well, OK, not really, but it should be interesting to see how the rest of the year plays out.

105
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:29pm

If it is shown the Colts are engaging in that sort of nonsense, I hope Goodell strips the Colts of an entire year's draft picks, just as I advocated the same for Pats for their taping shenannigans. Once and for all, I'd like to see it made clear to various knuckleheads that screwing around with the integrity of the competition with technology warrants a near-death penalty.

106
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:30pm

So, have the overnight TV ratings come out yet? What were the numbers for The Game?

107
by Jake (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:36pm

The Samuel call was legit. The Colts should have been called for OPI when Harrison got tackled (and subsequently slapped the behind of the ref). The Colts should have been called for OPI when Hobbs was called for DPI - he got tackled from behind while going for the ball. The Colts should have been called for DPI on the hooking on Faulk. The OPI call on Moss was ludicrous - there was literally nothing to call there.
That's ignoring when Colvins helmet was ripped off (no call), or the Moorehead catch out of bounds that made the Patriots use a challenge in the opening minutes of the game. The officiating was indefensibly terrible and the bad calls went against the Patriots. You can try to dismiss that, but 150 yards of penalties is not insignificant.

108
by MDZ (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:37pm

DJH, and everyone else. Can we all just talk about football?

109
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:37pm

"The guy did a speech at a fundraising dinner and now he’s a horrible human being. Oh…and he coaches the Colts."

If Bill Bellichick did a fund raising dinner for the KKK or some other Anti-black group, would you be defending him, or calling him a horrible human being?

Speaking at a fundraiser is supporting the group. The group is part of the American Family Association, which, like I said, openly promotes persecution of gays, legally defends perpetrators of hate crimes, etc.

110
by lionsbob (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:37pm

The Patriots should just screw with everyone's heads and draft Darren McFadden in the 2008 draft.

I know this is an offshoot thread to discuss the every so important questions of is Dungy a good person or what is pass interference. But I would want my team, the Lions, to pull a Dikta and trade almost their entire draft for the right to draft McFadden.

111
by JohnR (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:38pm

I too can't believe that the NFL sent B-team refs to this game.

Any Indy fans that want to complain about calls - really you need to stop. I mean, Indy had 25 yards in penalties and the Pats set a team record in penalty yards. There is no way that the Pats committed enough penalties to warrant setting a team record. I mean, has anyone mentioned that one of Moss' arms was held on a pass to the end zone? What about the PI that wasn't called on Faulk over the middle on 3rd and long? Just too many to mention...

And Harrison wasn't playing. So what? Harrison has done very little in most of the games he has played this year...even before his injury. If you don't have depth, don't complain. Did Pats fans complain about Troy Brown playing nickelback in the AFC championship game they won over the Colts a few years ago?

I thought it was a great game - unfortunately the NFL supplied crappy refs. But it is clear these 2 teams will meet again and there will be better refs for that one...

112
by Herm? (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:40pm

Excellent Question Patsfan, we should be expecting "highest rated nonpost-season game" type numbers.
And I'll take Corey Dillon blocking with one hand and the other hand on a bag of Cheetos any day of the week and twice on Sunday (that's the important one) over Maroney in short yardage or pass blocking situations. Maroney is either hurt or not a very complete runningback. Watch Kevin Faulk when he sacrifices his 195 pounds against all-out blitzes. Part awesome, part sad.

113
by MDZ (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:44pm

JohnR
Where has a Colts fan said they got screwed by the refs? They don't need to stop because they haven't started. We know we benefitted from several calls and still lost. There is no need to rub it in. But if you want, have fun picking on strawmen. In fact, I haven't seen Colts fans on this board blaming the outcome of the game on injuries, the only comments about them have come from fans of other teams, or Colts fans saying that at least the possibility of getting Harrison and Ugoh back gives some hopes that a rematch in NE could be competetive with the Colts having a chance to win.

114
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:45pm

Pats offensive player participation, courtesy The Invaluable Mike Reiss:

A look at the snaps played by skill position players on offense in the Patriots' 24-20 victory over the Colts (not including four kneel-down plays):

WR Randy Moss -- 56 of 58 snaps
WR Wes Wellker -- 44 of 58
RB Kevin Faulk -- 34 of 58
WR Donte' Stallworth -- 32 of 58
TE Benjamin Watson -- 32 of 58
TE Kyle Brady -- 29 of 58
RB Laurence Maroney -- 23 of 58
WR Jabar Gaffney -- 21 of 58
RB/FB Heath Evans -- 10 of 58 (all as FB)
TE/OL Russ Hochstein -- 7 of 58

(RB Kyle Eckel and WR Kelley Washington did not play on offense)

115
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:45pm

Hey, all you folks who want to discuss the moral value of various players and coaches as human beings? Why don't you just exchange e-mail addresses, keep it to yourselves, and leave the rest of us out of it? Pretty please with sugar on top?

116
by Dave (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:51pm

I was at the game and did not hear any strange glitch in the crowd noise. Like someone else mentioned, it didn't actually seem as loud as it has in the past - with the exception of the first series, right after the opening sack. That was as loud as I've ever heard it, rivaling the Pittsburgh playoff game when they tried to accuse them of this before.

I will admit, though, that the glitch could've happened without me knowing though. I was concentrating on where the Colts DBs were on every play so something like that could've slipped past me.

If they are piping in noise, they're really quite good at it, as the noise levels are always naturally rising and falling with big plays for and against. A sound guy would really have to be on top of things to know when to fade in and out, and have the restraint not to use it when it's otherwise too quiet. Also, there have been issues with the audio system multiple times already this year (problems with the stadium announcer, etc), and if it was the system, rather than a microphone, you'd think people would've noticed a difference in the noise level during those times. I didn't.

I'd say it's very unlikely. But I am perfectly OK with the league looking into it, and with any penalty that comes from it if they turn out to be doing it.

117
by P. Ryan Wilson :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:51pm

Good Lord, I step away from my computer to change a stinky diaper and all hell breaks loose. Look, people, please keep the discussion to football. Not religion, sexuality, politics, or anything NOT ABOUT FOOTBALL.

Since people weren't crazy about me deleting comments without warning last time, consider this the "any other non-football-related comments will be deleted" warning.

Thanks.

118
by STI (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:51pm

46: " the Morehead out of bounds call got reversed, so no harm done."

Um, yes, harm was done: the Patriots had to use one of their challenges to get it overturned. You only start off with two per game, so if the second one had gone against them, they'd be SOL if they really needed one late in the game. [*If* your first two challenges go your way, you get a third one.]

119
by AlexDL (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:55pm

re: 115. yipeeeeeee!!!!!

120
by Todd (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:57pm

Re: 115 THANK YOU

121
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:58pm

Re: #114

But if you miked the crowd and put that through speakers, wouldn't you not have some of the problems you mention, since such a setup would naturally get quieter when the crowd quieted down?

122
by Herm? (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 2:58pm

I agree with Will.
I'm just surprised he is taking the time to comment on that when he could tell how good Adrian Peterson would look on the cover of SI next year...in a Patriot Uniform, standing next to Kevin Garnett and David Ortiz.
OK just kidding, Peterson was amazing to watch yesterday for the 1PM game. You'd think Norv would have stacked 11 on the line in the second half. Maybe tie all of their shoes together.

123
by Cyrus (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:01pm

RE 112: WR Randy Moss — 56 of 58 snaps

That, my friend, was the key to victory.

RE 108: The Patriots should just screw with everyone’s heads and draft Darren McFadden in the 2008 draft.

That would be awesome. Seriously, awesome. Maroney is a good RB, but I have not seen him run like he did last year. My hope is that it is injuries, and he comes back strong at least by the playoffs. But I still hope Chad Jackson can turn into a WR2. Which is to say, I hope a lot.

That SF pick keeps getting better and better... if only McFadden hadn't blown up this past week, he could have dropped to us about the #5 spot. Still a while to go, maybe we'll get another Adrian Peterson!

[Side note: Other than Kenny Phillips/McFadden, there isn't really anyone worthy of a top 10 pick for the Patriots. Unless they go LT... they don't need DE, OL, QB and really don't even need McFadden.]

124
by Dave (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:02pm

#119 -

You're right. I hadn't thought of that.

Still, the speakers in that place are so crappy that I'd think, sitting directly below one of them, that I'd notice any extra sounds coming from them. (That could totally be a reach though, even if I am a bit of an audiophile - it's not exactly ideal listening conditions.)

My other argument in favor of it being a TV glitch and not piped in sound is that the building is very similar in size and shape to the Carrier Dome, where I grew up watching games, and that place was insanely loud too (at least it used to be, when the Orangemen were good).

125
by MDZ (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:05pm

Glenn Dorsey next to Wilfork would be nasty. One of Belichek's greatest strengths is that he figures out the best way to maximize the talent he has. He doesn't seem to be in love with any scheme, he just played the 3-4 because that's the talent he had and could get tweeners that were great for his system for bargain prices.

126
by Al 45 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:11pm

re: Dave

My other argument in favor of it being a TV glitch and not piped in sound is that the building is very similar in size and shape to the Carrier Dome

The thing is though when the crowd noise was skipping, the audio of the announcers (Nantz and Simms) didn't skip a beat.

127
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:11pm

The real draft question is this: What is Will going to do when the Vikings don't draft a QB.

128
by Al 45 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:12pm

re: Dave

My other argument in favor of it being a TV glitch and not piped in sound is that the building is very similar in size and shape to the Carrier Dome

The thing is though when the crowd noise was skipping, the audio of the announcers (Nantz and Simms) didn't skip a beat. That seems a bit odd to me.

I'd like to hear audio from some of the local radio broadcasts. Anyone have that from the Patriots rock radio network?

129
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:14pm

Herm, go the other audibles thread for comments about the quality of the Chargers' coaching yesterday. Dear Lord, what a travesty.

130
by lionsbob (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:15pm

Well the Patriots are at 4 right now with the draft pick. Rams and Dolphins do not need McFadden, and the Jets have the 3rd pick right now (this can be different of course).

Do they go BPA? Is Belichick going to be drafting Saban players again?

131
by Dave (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:17pm

125, that's true, but the announcers and the crowd (and the refs) are all from different audio feeds that go through the board in the production truck. So it's possible that something happened with that particular audio track.

As an example of how they're different, you may remember that Pittsburgh-Buffalo game two years back when the Bills had a chance to mess things up in the playoff picture (but rolled over instead) and the CBS feed lost the announcers for a solid five minutes. It was pretty awesome - full surround sound of just the crowd noise and no idiot announcers!

132
by Cyrus (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:18pm

RE: 123

It will be interesting to see what happens this year. If Bruschi and/or Vrabel and/or Seau retire, there is a big gap in the LB corps. And as we know, it requires veterans to fill Belichick's scheme.

I kind of think that he loves the 3-4 due to its ability to disguise coverage, so a 4-3 wouldn't be a good base defense. He has the personnel to work the 4-3 as it is, but he only rarely does it.

I have been pleasantly surprised by Vrabel's ability coming off of the edge, but he, Bruschi and Seau are all old and slower-- if we could get some players that are close to the talent that they were in their prime, it would be insane. Colvin and Thomas are better than any LB's the Patriots have had before, in my opinion-- so filling in with younger guys would be great.

(Oh, I still love Bruschi, half man, half god, half possible centaur...)

133
by Al 45 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:18pm

I wouldn't be shocked if the Patriots traded down with their pick, maybe looking for a later pick this year and a 1st rounder next year (to give them 2 next year).

I just don't envision the Patriots drafting that high. I could be completely wrong though. It's almost impossible to predict what they're going to do during the draft.

134
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:19pm

Re: #128

I'd love to see that. I loved the Bills-Dolphins experiment of 20+ years ago and now with the on-screen graphics that are available, announcers are even more dispensable.

134
by Herm? (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:19pm

If you were at the game, you would have heard the problem - it was the sound of digital audio skipping (the same .2 seconds of sound over and over until it gets fixed)
The Colts have always been accused of piping crowd noise, but I'm willing to believe people who were there that this didn't happen, and that it was more likely a glitch in the digital broadcast of the stadium sounds for television and radio.

136
by Digit (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:20pm

Has there been a reason given for why Harrison was medically cleared but inactivated for the game? It seemed like a 80 percent of a Harrison would have been much more useful than Moorehead.

137
by Ben (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:24pm

re 128: That also explains the quick drop in volume on the broadcast. The producers heard the glitch and dropped that mike from the audio mix.

I really, really don't think it was piped in noise. but, even as a Colts fan, if it was, the team should certainly be punished.

138
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:25pm

130

Al, I wouldn't either, but Bellichick hasn't really been big on trading down. The last couple of times hes been up there, he's taken lineman, and this looks like a strong lineman draft. I just don't see what they'd pick, the two lines are great. Maybe Kazcur could be replaced, but theres no real need.

The defensive line is all signed for the next couple years. LB is a little bit of an issue, but I think Vrable still has 2 more years in him (as long as they use him like this year..pass rushing), but Bruschi is cooked. Seau actually looks really good in run situations and pass rushing, but is atrocious in coverage. I could see them drafting a LB, but not at 1.5. CB is a possible hole, but it looks like Merriweather is getting turned into a CB, and Hobbs is good. Gay is a great nickleback.

High 1st is typically a "giant gaping hole" pick, but they don't have any.

139
by Ben (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:27pm

re 133: Dungy said earlier in the week that he'd rather have Harrison 100% down the stretch and if it was a playoff game he would have played last week even. Dungy just didn't want to risk it for a regular season game in early November.

140
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:27pm

To me, the fact that it seems that no one at the game noticed and commented on the skipping audio - not just players/organization staff, but journalists and pats fans there - very strongly argues that it was just a broadcast glitch. I mean, it was obvious enough on TV, it should have been deafeningly so in the dome, right?

141
by RickD (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:29pm

re: pass interference
Click on name for NFL official pass interference rule.

Sorry, "slowing down and letting a WR run into you" is not pass interference. More to the point, "letting" somebody run into you is not a penalty, if you are playing the ball.

If a defender is playing the ball, and slowing down is the natural thing to do while going for the ball, the WR has no "right-of-way" or anything like that that allows him to plow into the defender.

If you cut off the WR without playing the ball, that's PI. If you are playing the ball, then it isn't.

A defender is allowed to touch a WR as part of "incidental contact". See Note 1.

#64 Nathan, you are flat-out wrong. The defender is not "required to stop" before he hits the receiver, not that that is an accurate characterization of what happened on the Hobbs' PI. If the ball is in the air, the defender has as much right to go for it as the WR. See Note 2.

142
by Derek (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:32pm

re: Maroney

Maybe some of you could enlighten me as to what the dig on Maroney was in this game... he seemed effective, hit the hole, lowered his shoulder, ran into people, fell forward, in general seemed to be holding up his end of the bargain.

Where he seemed to fail, and this is incredibly important but not the same as saying he's playing injured, or not running well... is in pass protection.

The latter portion of that game, when the Pats were running max protect, Kevin Faulk was on the field almost all the time.

To me, it seems like there's a really, really, really obvious corollary between the change in scheme (and the effectiveness it created) and the personnel on the field. Faulk wasn't doing anything particularly great on the ground, but if you want him out there every down for protection in the passing game, you have to run him to keep the defense honest.

Two other quick thoughts:

(1) Pats fans complaining about the officiating have a legitimate beef, particularly when half the post-game discussion was about how the Colts dominated this game and would have won if so-and-so and their friends weren't injured (I'm obviously exaggerating slightly), and I think the reaction is: "if you don't land every single major call in this game, it's not that close"

(2) The Colts did not drive the length of the field once in this entire game. They made it downfield twice on debatable PI calls and couldn't push it in, Addai broke one loose on an inexcusable lapse of attention by pretty much the Pats entire secondary, and Peyton engineered a 37 yard drive after a pick and a personal foul.

Just as depth is important to a team, so is attention, and if you don't have it, thinks like Addai's 80million yard catch and run happen. But if the Colts run that play 10 times how many does Addai break? If you had 10 different officiating crews, how many give the Colts all three of the big PI calls in this game (or, perhaps more honestly: if you had 10 different officiating crews, what other missed calls, on either side, get called instead, and what made calls becomes non-calls? and how many times do the Pats give up such a HUGE advantage in yards by penalties?).

I'm not trying to take anything away from that Colts team. The Pats play them 10 times in a year they probably win 6, MAYBE 7 times, tops, and perhaps fewer.

I just think it's important to note how much of the Colts offense was generated by penalties. Yes, they had Addai, but they had nothing else. And yes, conceivably in their next meeting the entire team will be healthy, but it's also unlikely they'll get a game called so favorably for them. It's impossible to quantify exactly how important those calls or those missing players were.

For all the talk about the Colts dominating the Pats all game, they were able to put up all of 20 points on the board. There's nothing morally superior about playing moderately better for most of the game... the Pats played well enough to keep it close, and found a gear the Colts couldn't match at the close.

Can't wait for the rematch.

143
by Al 45 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:33pm

re: 137

I mean, it was obvious enough on TV, it should have been deafeningly so in the dome, right?

Not necessarily. I was at the Clemson vs. Va Tech game this year, at Clemson, and at times it was so deafening in there I couldn't hear my buddy who was standing 1 foot away from me.

Honestly, with people screaming in your ear, concentrating on the play, clapping, and probably with a few beers in you, I can see how most people at the game wouldn't have noticed. Especially because it happened during the play, not before the snap.

That doesn't mean they definitely did pipe in noise in that instance (I say in that instance, because I don't believe for a second they're not doing that... that's right up Bill Polian's alley), but I can definitely see how people there wouldn't have noticed.

I think it would stand out more on TV than in person.

144
by Dave (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:37pm

129: love the centaur reference! (do you have that file or a link? My bookmark is a dead link now)

131: no kidding. I'd pay double for an NFL sunday ticket package that allowed me to select an announcer-free feed. Sort of like a 2nd Superfan package.

133: my guess is that while he could probably run 80-90% and catch, he's still vulnerable to aggravating the injury, and they wouldn't want to risk a hit that'd take him out for the whole year. He was visibly angry before the game, out on the field playing around while the others warmed up. I'm sure he didn't agree with the call to hold him out.

145
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:37pm

Re: #140

Like I said -- can someone here who has paid for NFL FieldPass listen to that piece on both the Pats and Colts radio broadcasts and report back?

146
by Nathan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:37pm

re 138:

Ok.

It is pass interference by either team when any player movement beyond the line of scrimmage significantly hinders the progress of an eligible player of such player’s opportunity to catch the ball.

Running into a player hinders the progress of an eligible player.

(e) Cutting off the path of a receiver by making contact with him without playing the ball.

Judgment call by the ref.

So you disagree with the judgment call, fine.

147
by Chad Gerson (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:38pm

There is no excuse for the Colts to have lost that game. When you have 3 red zone opportunities early in the game and come away with 6 points, it will come back to haunt you. That and the horrible play call to go deep on 3rd and 2 when they should have just picked up the first down. The defense was great and Addai was a monster. This one is on Peyton. Well, missing Ugoh and Harrison hurt too.

148
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:38pm

"Running into a player hinders the progress of an eligible player."

You can't run into someone with your back while you're running forward.

149
by PFC1 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:38pm

Colts fan here. Great game, the team that played best won. I certainly questioned some of the PI calls myself, but whatever. I also question many no calls in prior AFC playoff games.

150
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:39pm

According to Zap2It, the 7pm numbers for Pats/Colts were a 19.3 rating and a 31 share.

151
by JohnR (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:40pm

111:
I don't think you looked at much of the thread. I read a few posts complaining about Freeney being held. I read a post that argued that the Colts penalties were more damaging than the Pats ones. And there is an ongoing multipost discussion to try to justify the PI call on Hobbs.

Bob Kravitz' column seems to be an open letter crying about injuries. More than a few "pundits" Ditka, et al openly wondered about what Marvin would have added to the game. Where were these people when the Pats played without lots of starters? Part of building a team is building depth.

Anyway - the main point that I was trying to make is that it is criminal for the NFL to put crappy refs in the biggest game of the week. Please put guys that have reffed Super Bowls before into games like this. Hopefully we won't be complaining so much about them at the end of the game.

152
by PFC1 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:40pm

Re: 119-- no you can't do that to create the desired effect. If you turn up the volumn enough to make a difference to the internal noise level, you will create feed back. That would be quite noticeable.

Re 125: the crowd noise and the anouncer feeds are different sources. Skipping/irregularities in one will not necessarily be heard in the other. I have watched games where the anouncer voices are silent, but the crowd can be heard and vice versa.

153
by PFC1 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:40pm

Re 133: I couldn't agree more. I would rather have a paraplegice Marvin Harrison on the field than Moorehead. We would get more production with Reggie Wayne simply dragging Harrison 10 yerds down field, and dropping him off as Wayne makes his cut. At least Harrison would catch the ball laying on his back, and his feet would be in bounds. Marvin's YAC would surely decline, but Marvin falls to the ground after the catch most of the time anyway.

154
by dryheat (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:43pm

[Side note: Other than Kenny Phillips/McFadden, there isn’t really anyone worthy of a top 10 pick for the Patriots. Unless they go LT… they don’t need DE, OL, QB and really don’t even need McFadden.]

If the Patriots are unable to trade down, the correct move would be to draft Jake Long, move Light to RT, and make Kaczur the swing tackle. Having a backfield by committee featuring two first round picks near the same age and a three-year contract overlap would be an incredibly stupid use of cap percentage.

155
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:45pm

dryheat, if they have (by the draft) decided Maroney isn't going to work out, McFadden would be the right pick. If they still think hes viable, then you're right.

I think the Pats use a 3rd or 4th rounder on a big bruiser back.

156
by Todd (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:46pm

Jake Long is an absolute monster. If the Pats can't move out, he's definitely my pick.

157
by JJcruiser (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:48pm

Patriots drafted Richard Seymour with the sixth pick of the 2001 draft.

I'd say they know how to draft high as well as low. The draft is a crapshoot, but they seem to do okay except on skill players.

But I can't see the 49ers ending up with a top 3 or even top 5 pick. NFC West is too weak.

And we all know trying to predict what the Pats will do is pointless; they will "make the best pick they can for the team" or "make the best trade they can for the team."

158
by Waverly (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:50pm

I think that the publicity that comes with investigating improper sound system usage is harmful to the image of the NFL because it will make fans even more cynical. It really is a minor matter.

Then again, maybe the additional controversy is just a way of increasing attention and ultimately revenue, by getting fans riled up. Not that I'm being cynical.

159
by dryheat (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:52pm

That and the horrible play call to go deep on 3rd and 2 when they should have just picked up the first down

I was beside myself on that call too. I think that was inexcusable on Manning's part, if you haven't already decided to go for it on fourth.

Oh, and I'll volunteer that the Colts missed Keiaho more than they did Harrison. I don't think Harrison would have changed the outcome whatsoever. Ben Watson was clearly still ailing out there...his speed was non-existent. I think the next time these two play will be very different from a strategic standpoint.

160
by DCL-2 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 3:55pm

I wonder how much crowd noise forcing the offense to a silent count adds to the effectiveness of speed rushers like Freeney and Mathis. Would Light and Kaczur been beaten as often in Foxborough or a neutral site when they would have had more of a snap advantage? Does anyone know if speed rushers are as effective on the road as at home?

161
by Lyford (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:01pm

I think that the publicity that comes with investigating improper sound system usage is harmful to the image of the NFL because it will make fans even more cynical. It really is a minor matter.

Even if I were to agree with you on it being a minor matter, the NFL absolutely cannot take that position. The Patriots lost a first-round draft pick for a technical violation of the league rules that would have FAR less impact on a football game than the hypothetical violation of the league rules that the Colts would be committing if they are electronically enhancing the crowd noise when the opposition has the ball.

162
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:03pm

Oh, irony. :)

Belichick said the coach-to-QB system for the Pats was down virtually all day. Oh Bill Polian, you scamp!

163
by Al 45 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:03pm

Interesting from yahoo.com

Observers at the game said there seemed to be a "skip" in the sound during the game Sunday, which the Patriots won 24-20.

Notice how it says, "observers at the game".

It appears Johnathan Kraft was irate during the game and mentioned something to Milt Ahlerich.

164
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:06pm

By the way, speaking of conspiracies, Belichick also said yesterday that they had no coach-to-QB communication pretty much all game, and they had to use a signal system.

Even assuming that the Colts had theirs shut off as a result, something like that is certainly more of a problem for the Pats than for Indy because of crowd noise, and of course because Manning pretty much calls all his plays anyways.

165
by starzero (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:07pm

why does moss have to push off so much? if he can make catches like that one-handed (are those gloves coated with glue?) grab, and he's three feet taller than everyone else on the field, why does he have to shove the defender away on every play? that said, he did a good job of going down with each catch, rather than letting the colts defenders deck him.

166
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:07pm

According to Jason Cole at Yahoo Sports, "observers at the game said there appeared to be a 'skip' in the sound".

167
by Al 45 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:07pm

re: 149/PFC1

Re 125: the crowd noise and the anouncer feeds are different sources. Skipping/irregularities in one will not necessarily be heard in the other. I have watched games where the anouncer voices are silent, but the crowd can be heard and vice versa.

Yes, but my friend deals with this type of sound mixing for events like this. Basically, he said that if the game is mixed in Dolby 5.1 (which I believe it was), then the main sounds (announcers, refs, whistles, music, etc..) are mixed to the center, left, and right channels.

The ambient noises, such as the crowd noise, are mixed to the 2 surround channels, thereby creating an effect of the crowd being around them.

In this case, the skipping was clearly heard among the center, left, and right channels, which would mean it was being picked up by the mics not responsible for delivering just the surround of the crowd.

168
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:07pm

Ah, Patsfan the master conspiracist beat me to it. ;)

169
by islandbob (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:09pm

Can someone more knowledgable than me comment on this observation?

It seems that at least once per game, Rodney Harrison will let a receiver get position on him, see that the ball is heading to his receiver, and then turn and run into the receiver, knocking him down or at least preventing him from making the catch, and then throw up his hands and claim that he (Harrision) was interfered with. He never gets called on this but to me it seems quite disingenuous and against the rules.

170
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:11pm

165.

Specifically what play are you talking about, in this game?

171
by islandbob (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:13pm

Rich- it was a jump ball in the back left part of the endzone in the first quarter. Receiver was... I dunno, Wayne?

172
by Al 45 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:14pm

re: 168

You mean the play where most non-partial observers (and they mentioned this in the ESPN Scout's inc chats, as well as Mike Sando's blog, I believe) believed that there should have been an OPI against Indy? That one?

173
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:17pm

167.

Not sure, the only ball I can think of right now is the one to Clark in the back/middle left of the endzone, where he beat Clark and Clark tackled him from behind.

Thats the only play in the 1st quarter where Harrison was targeted in the end zone (as far as I can see in the play-by-play)

174
by Doug (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:17pm

The FO clocks need to adjust for the time change.

175
by dryheat (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:19pm

Does anybody else want to comment on the spotting of the ball? Unless the yellow line was way off (certainly a possibility), it appeared that the Colts were twice awarded first downs that they didn't come close to reaching. I was shocked that Belichick didn't challenge the spots, but I suppose he didn't want to chance being without any for the rest of the game.

176
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:19pm

170.

Please, FO, don't do it mid-day with threads active. We saw what happened last year when you did it. Wait till midnight or something.

177
by Doug (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:20pm

As a Pats fan, I was relieved and surprised when Indy went long on that 3rd and short...

178
by TireSlasher (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:23pm

#2 --

“In the AFC Championship game, the Patriots had no answer for Dallas Clark. Today, they held the answer on Clark, but forgot to bring one for Addai.�

Is it possible that was intentional? I’ve heard several times that one of Belichick’s keys to beating the Bills in the Superbowl was to let Thurman Thomas go over 100 yards rushing. Is it possible they thought they same about Addai? I’m sure Belichick wasn’t counting on a 70 yard TD before half time. Other than that, maybe they were willing to let him get four or five yard gains all day and force the Colts to be patient and keep taking the short stuff.

You are dead-on accurate here. That was Belichick's and Parcell's strategy for the Bills in the Super Bowl, and it's the same strategy that Jeff Fisher constantly utilizes when Tennessee plays the Colts. And as everybody knows, the Titans play the Colts better than anyone, simply because they refuse to allow Manning to throw the ball down the field, and they also go out of their way to stop those 12-15 yard in-patterns that Manning always completes to Harrison and Wayne. By allowing Addai to run, they force the Colts to sustain long drives, keeping the score close into the Fourth Quarter. I even heard Fisher interviewed once where he said he doesn't even care if the Colts score, as long as it takes them 7-8 minutes to do do.

179
by Herm? (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:29pm

If the internet has proven 2 things, it's dirty pictures are profitable, and New England fans (myself included) do not like to work...2A is that we are probably very quick with the Alt+TAB buttons

180
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:33pm

"As a Pats fan, I was relieved and surprised when Indy went long on that 3rd and short…"

I was part relieved, part scared. I remember Denver doing the same thing 2 years ago in the playoffs, and putting the ball in the endzone.

181
by Bergs (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:39pm

There are some positions so foolish, so free of merit, so devoid of reason, that they cast their supporters in the harsh light of stubbornness and/or insanity.

One such position is that the PI call on Hobbs was defensible.

182
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:50pm

So does the Patriots end-game strategy yesterday:

1-10-IND 46 (2:25) 39-L.Maroney left end to IND 43 for 3 yards (93-D.Freeney).
Timeout #2 by IND at 02:19.
2-7-IND 43 (2:19) 39-L.Maroney up the middle to IND 42 for 1 yard (79-R.Brock).
Timeout #3 by IND at 02:13.
3-6-IND 42 (2:13) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to IND 32 for 10 yards (28-M.Jackson).
Two-Minute Warning
1-10-IND 32 (2:00) 12-T.Brady kneels to IND 34 for -2 yards.
2-12-IND 34 (1:18) 12-T.Brady kneels to IND 35 for -1 yards.
3-13-IND 35 (:37) 12-T.Brady kneels to IND 36 for -1 yards.

prove that they've been running up the score in previous weeks (not that there's anything wrong with that)?

When the game was actually on the line at the end, they were running conservative plays and kneeling. Last week the apologists were saying that throwing the ball was New England's best method to run out the clock. But I guess they can only do that when they're up by 20+.

183
by Cyrus (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:51pm

RE 141:

I can send a link when I get home. I downloaded the clip and hosted it on my own website.

Here is an excerpt:
[Parody about Tedy Bruschi]
"did we mention he had a stroke. did we mention he almost stroked out. an amazing story. the fans chanting that he is a golden god. it's a little bit awkward but still he is a god. everybody on the field now, including the bills, bowing to tedy bruschi as if he is some kind of mythical creature. Half-man. Half-god. half possible centaur. im not sure, but either way, i wish he was my dad."

184
by Al 45 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:52pm

Richie:

Apples and oranges.

The Patriots were never in a position where they could run the clock out with a knee without having the ball go over to the other team on downs before the clock reached 0:00.

185
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:52pm

Richie,

Given that Brady threw two ints, and given that before the kneeldowns, Brady did throw a pass... I don't get your point.

186
by Cyrus (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:55pm

RE: 171 If the internet has proven 2 things, it’s dirty pictures are profitable, and New England fans (myself included) do not like to work…2A is that we are probably very quick with the Alt+TAB buttons

So true. I wonder if anyone notices that the alt+tab buttons have a particular sound... oh well.

RE: 178
No, it doesn't prove much of anything. They threw the ball to Welker, thus getting the first down.

They ran the ball with Maroney because it has the lowest chance of a turnover.

I think that when they are up 20+ points, they don't care about the risk of the turnover, they just want to end the game by burning the clock the best way they know how. And again-- they throw the ball to get first downs.

187
by Oswlek (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:58pm

Some of my thoughts:

* We all know about the PI calls (offensive and defensive) and the early crap call to make NE lose a challenge, but there were two others that I haven't seen a single person mention

1) The play where NE was tagged with a PF call for "blocking out of bounds"? crap like that happens at least once a game and I have never seen that called in my football watching life.

2) There was another play where a Colt lineman literally ripped the helmet off of a Pats lineman (I can't remember who was on offense at the time) 3 seconds after the play without a call. Just a complete debacle.

Indy actually had significantly more contact in the secondary than NE did. If your want to call the Samuel play PI, then Indy should have been flagged 5-10 times - not counting the Hayden play where he was holding Moss' arm and the Faulk hook play. I don't think they should be flagged, just some consistency.

* My son got me up at 5:40 this morning, so I was able to watch quite a bit of coverage on this game, not one national highlight show even replayed the terrible PI calls. Let me say this loud and clear: Had NE been the beneficiary of that type of officiating it would be a huge story. Because it was against NE, it will be quickly swept under the rug.

* Whether or not the Colts were pumping in noise (I personally have no opinion), the same goes for this one. This will go nowhere, but we would hear about it all week of that crap happened in NE. I doubt Skip Bayless refers to this game other than to bash BB for being so impersonal afterward.

* Addai was unreal in this game. NE's tackling was terrible, but a lot of that was Joe. He made some terrific cuts and skip-steps to avoid contact. The play that he took all the way was not one of them, BTW. It was a basic play that NE complete screwed up.

* As good as Addai was - and he certainly the better RB at this point - I wouldn't sleep on Maroney. I thought he was terrific in this game. He was decisive and he ran with excellent quickness and power. I would have liked him to convert the 3rd down in the 3rd quarter, but other than that he was excellent. I don't regret that pick in the least.

* I completely underestimated Indy's defense. They are as tough as they are fast and they are hard to move despite their size.

* Brady was obviously affected by Indy's pressure. He wasn't nearly as accurate as he has been. Just a few plays

- the long play to Moss probably should have been a TD on its own.
- Brady had a couple tosses to Moss that werre thrown too high. One was caught by a crzy one armed catch and the other was almost picked. It seemed to me that the second pick was because he was trying to be careful not to overthrow it.

* By comparison, Manning was remarkably accurate. He made a stupid throw that Rodney picked, but all his other throws were right on the money. As upset I was about the Addai TD, Wayne's drop evened things off. He should have had a TD on that play.

* I do blame Stallworth on Brady's first int, though. It was a little underthown, but Stallworth completely ran himself out of position on that one. It reminded me of a basketball player putting a token effort into getting a rebound and letting a guy get inside position on him. Stallworth should have at least broken that play up and, frankly, should have earned a PI call.

* One of the things I love about Indy os the play of their OL. They played fabulously despite the absence of Ugoh and gave Manning more time than I expected in the first 3 quarters. I also love just how much holding the league seems to want them to do. They didn't have any of those "grab the back of the jersey" type holds yesterday, but I noticed several of the OLs doing a technique where they grab the lower part of the defenders jersey and hold them close so it was hard for the officials to see. It was *clearly* a coached technique that they knew that they could get away with. How is this so much worse than what NE did in 2003 when they took a gamble that the refs would let some things go?

(Yes, I realize it is partly hypocritical to bitch about the refs and make reference to a game where NE got away with some rough stuff, but as I always say, that game was *consistent*. No game since then has even been partly so. Indy was handed two possessions inside the 10 - one of which was OPI on Wayne - while NE has a TD taken away at the end by an absent OPI that was called. I don't know how anyone could deny what has been going on in their recent games)

* Ranting about the refs aside, Indy proved to me that they are much better than I thought. They have every right to feel that they are right there with "the greatest team ever" if they have everyone healthy. They outmuscled NE on both sides of the ball and looked very well coached.

* My boy Welker was key to this game. Two quick outs for huge plays and big punt returns to set things up. He just finds a way to get involved.

Now specific responses:

Mike Tanier: I agree with you that refs regularly call PI when a DB gets in the way and slows down. However that did not happen yesterday. Hobbs, in full run, moved over to get position and looked back for the ball. He did not slow down at all and was actually seperating from Wayne towards the pick when Wayne tackled him. Just an outrageous call that should never be backed.

Aaron: With regard to your comments on hubris and NE sticking with the spread in the first half despite a lack of success, the spread was the formation that led to both of NE's 4th quarter TDs. Not only the spread, but the spread with those same long developing plays that you scolded NE for using earlier. Was it hubris in the 4th quarter too?

188
by Ashley Tate (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 4:58pm

RE 4, 21, others:

Moss absolutely did not push off when called for PI in the end zone. The call actually should have been PI on the DB.

If you have the game Tivo'ed watch all the replays in slow-motion. I thought the way Moss twisted and tried to catch the ball with one hand was very odd given the angle and I watched the play several times from all angles. You can only see this in one of the replay angles, but the DB actually pinned the hand of Moss's extended arm against his chest (in the crook of his elbow) before Moss initiated any contact. He held on while Moss jumped for the ball and all Moss could do was attempt a twisting one-handed catch with his free hand. The ref only saw that Moss's hand was on the DB's chest and assumed a push-off.

189
by dryheat (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:03pm

The Patriots did what they've been doing consistently all season. When the offense has had the ball and the ability to bleed the clock via kneeling, they've done it. They did it week 1, week 2, week 4, week 8, and week 9. The only times they haven't are the times when they either haven't had the last possession, or due to down or remaining time outs, haven't been in that position. I've really never seen a more overblown "controversy".

190
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:04pm

#181, everything NE did at the end of the Indy game to preserve the lead made sense. Running the ball for low-risk ball protection.

But in the Washington game, while up by 45 points in the 4th quarter, they were working out of the shotgun, throwing deep passes on early downs.

1-10-NE 49 (12:50) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep right to 81-R.Moss pushed ob at WAS 16 for 35 yards (24-S.Springs).

The argument last week was that New England had to do that because that's their offense and that's the most efficient way for them to put the game to rest. But against Indy, they didn't throw deep passes while trying to protect a slim lead.

I don't know if there's anything wrong with running up the score, but I think it was disingenuous by those who tried to claim they didn't run up the score, or that they couldn't help but to run up the score.

191
by Cyrus (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:05pm

Just thought I would mention one other thing--

Part of the difference between Addai and Maroney can be summed up in two points:

1- Patriots basically ran a dime defense, whereas the Colts didn't.
2- Maroney was never able to get to the second level, I think due to the Colts having a good defense out there.

A lot of Addai's "wow" plays were when he got into the secondary. Maroney was decent, he averaged like 4 ypc (it was around 5 for most of the game) but he didn't get into that level of the secondary more than once, if I remember.

192
by MDZ (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:11pm

"Mike Tanier: I agree with you that refs regularly call PI when a DB gets in the way and slows down. However that did not happen yesterday. Hobbs, in full run, moved over to get position and looked back for the ball. He did not slow down at all and was actually seperating from Wayne towards the pick when Wayne tackled him. Just an outrageous call that should never be backed."

Except that's not what happened. Hobbs had a step on Wayne, and then they both turned, Hobbs did slow down and Wayne made up the ground and ran over Hobbs. Hobbs definitely didn't break away, and the ref made a judgement call that Hobbs played the receiver not the ball. Personally, I thought there wasn't enough there to warrant a flag, but it is a defensible call. I really want to see Mike Peirerra discuss this play in his official review on the NFLN. If he says it was a terrible, unjustified call then I'll take his word for it. Also, if Hobbs gets another apology then that will end the story. Right now though, I think it was a defensible call that shouldn't have been made.

193
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:12pm

Bleah.

NBC has grabbed Pats/Bills (18 Nov) away from CBS. I hate hate hate flex scheduling.

194
by Lyford (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:13pm

#186 - everything NE did at the end of the Indy game to preserve the lead made sense. Running the ball for low-risk ball protection. But in the Washington game, while up by 45 points in the 4th quarter, they were working out of the shotgun, throwing deep passes on early downs.

You do realize that you can't actually kneel the clock out with 13 minutes remaining, right?

195
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:14pm

#189 - why?

196
by W. Shedd (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:14pm

First - the idea that a defender runs under a receiver and uses his body to defend the ball, should draw a pass interference call in the NFL is absolutely ludicrous. Tanier, you are simply out to lunch on that one.

The defender and receiver have equal rights to catch the ball - if the defender is in better position to make the catch and uses his body to shield the ball, it is NOT pass interference. If it were, offensive pass interference would be called all the time, almost every curl route uses a receivers body to shield the defender away from the ball.

If the defender is playing to the ball, is in a better position to make the catch, and the receiver brings him down - how can that ever be defensive pass interference? The answer is it can't. If the roles of Hobbes and Wayne were reversed on that play, Hobbes likely (and rightly) would have been called for pass interference. If anything, it was offensive pass interference for the take-down by Wayne.

Regarding Barnwell's comment on pass interference: You are presuming that all passes that draw pass interference would be caught. You should be smart enough to know this is far from the case.

There were several calls and no calls in that game that were blatantly wrong. You can pretty much predict this officiating crew won't be in the playoffs.

I was surprised the Patriots didn't max protect earlier in the game, but this might have had something to do with the lack of QB communication (Patriots helmet mike wasn't working).

The Colts are a fast and undersized unit. The reason the Patriots won was partly in-game adjustments, and partly the inability for the Colts defense to keep up. Their defensive line was winded and substituting in the 2nd half. Colts apparently threw everything they had into those first 30 minutes and hoped they could play downhill. Patriots played for a full 60 and came away with the win.

197
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:15pm

188

I'm curious as to how you can say "Hobbs played Wayne"

When he

1) Could not see Wayne, as Wayne was behind him.

2) Almost caught the ball. How does he get his hands on the ball watching Wayne?

3) Was looking up at the ball.

198
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:15pm

#190 - Yes, but you can run the ball and probably eat more time than a 35-yard pass play that stops the clock by going OOB.

199
by Athelas (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:16pm

#191-
I haven't figured it out for myself, but I've heard that the Patriots will clinch the AFC East with that win.

200
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:18pm

194.

The Redskins had 10 guys in the box on that play, and 1-on-1 coverage on Moss on the outside. Running into that would mean a punt. They threw deep to Moss, and then the Redskins never brought more than 7 up into the box again.

That shot down the field made it much easier for the Patriots to run the ball later.

201
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:19pm

#195 - No, I mean why is it bad that the game will be on NBC at night instead of CBS during the day?

202
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:19pm

Richie,

I can't speak for other Pats fans, but I was one of the ones conceding that they were running up the score last week.

203
by dryheat (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:19pm

I haven’t figured it out for myself, but I’ve heard that the Patriots will clinch the AFC East with that win.

That's probably right. As of yesterday afternoon, the Jets and Dolphins were mathematically eliminated.

204
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:20pm

And no, it wouldn't take off more time. The clock doesn't stop when you go out of bounds and theres 12 minutes left.

205
by Digit (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:20pm

re: 195

The Patriots can clinch if Buffalo loses next week and then the Patriots beat the Bills the following week.

206
by starzero (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:21pm

can't we just agree that the nfl needs to train its refs better? they blow these calls every game on both sides. don't get me started on the downfield bumps that caused a rule change a few years ago.... as for yesterday, i can't recall which plays specifically, but i noticed a few holds by the patriots o-line. they prevented a few sacks that way. then there was that leg kick to confirm Light plays dirty....

207
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:21pm

Re: #195

Not quite. The Pats only clinch the AFCE with a win over Buffalo if the Bills lose this coming week to Miami (not likely).

208
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:23pm

202
"but i noticed a few holds by the patriots o-line. they prevented a few sacks that way. then there was that leg kick to confirm Light plays dirty…."

Are you serious? I didn't notice a single play where Charlie Johnson DIDNT hold. And he STILL got beat a bunch of times.

Light got beat on that play. Tripping a player for a 15 yard penalty is better than Brady getting blind sided and fumbling.

209
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:24pm

#196 - that play was on first down. New England could have run into the middle of the line for no gain every play of the fourth quarter and even if Washington could suddenly move the ball on offense, they wouldn't have enough time to make up 45 points.

Again, I am not questioning the morality of running up the score. I am questioning the denial that it was even done.

210
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:26pm

205

So NE should just let Washington score, instead of getting first downs?

211
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:27pm

#200, oh yeah, good point. It still doesn't change the fact that it was an attempt to score more unnecessary points.

BTW, I think it would be interesting if everybody follows Belichick's lead and keeps their foot on the gas pedal at all times. The NFL record books could change quite a bit.

212
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:28pm

NFL says CBS says it was their production glitch.

213
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:29pm

206

I said nothing of the kind. I said that if New England ran the ball every down, Washington would not have enough time left to make up 45 points.

214
by Al 45 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:30pm

re: 206

New England could have run into the middle of the line for no gain every play of the fourth quarter and even if Washington could suddenly move the ball on offense, they wouldn’t have enough time to make up 45 points.

So, anything short of straight dive plays into the line is considered running up the score?

What happens when they run those same straight dive plays and score a TD because the other team can't stop them (ahem, Dallas, ahem)? Are the still running up the score?

I understand your point and, in fact, I probably would have taken Brady out earlier and probably would have punted rather than having Cassel throw on 4th down.

However, I don't believe that -- beyond pulling flea flickers, reverses, and other trick plays out of your play book -- the offense should be required to stop running a normal regular offense simply because they're up big in the game.

215
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:34pm

#210 -

So, anything short of straight dive plays into the line is considered running up the score?

No. I was arguing against the point that New England had to throw deep to Moss on first down early in the 4th quarter of a 45-0 lead because if they didn't then they ran the risk of not getting a first down.

My point was that as long as they kept the clock running on every play, they didn't NEED another first down the entire game.

216
by Cyrus (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:37pm

RE: 195

I don't know for anybody else, but it screws up my schedule.

I'm not too concerned-- I'll either get more work done during the day, or I'll watch an extra football game.

If I was a fan going to the game, however, I would be pissed-- I picked the Bills game at Gillette (Week 3 this year) because it was an early game. If it suddenly became a late game, that would completely screw me up-- I have to go to early games because if we went to a late game, we would get home at about 2 in the morning.

Which definitely sucks-- I would have gone to the Colts game last year, or SD game this year, if not for that.

217
by DGL (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:37pm

I have to say, while it's a frequent occurrence for fans of the losing team to complain about how the officials cost them the game (see SB XL), this is one of the few times I've heard such vociferous complaning from the fans of the winning team about how they got jobbed by the officials.

Wow. Just, wow.

218
by Herm? (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:40pm

Oh wait, did we forget the 3rd down play when Faulk had a step on the defender, the defender grabbed Faulk's shoulder and turned him, causing him to drop the pass?
Then Brady yelled at the ref. I'm not sure I've seen a QB rip into a ref the way Brady did twice during that game...probably since the Marino days.
It wasn't a Brian Cox or Albert Haynesworth reaction, but it was more than I'm used to seeing.

219
by TopekaBearsfam (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:40pm

Regarding the Interception on the Stallworth Corner route, short of the Endzone.

There are probably only 3 or 4 QBs in the NFL right now that can actually make that throw perfectly, throwing across their body to the opposite side of the field. Jay Cutler, Carson Palmer, Brett Favre, and Jamarcus Russell. Very difficult throw when your rolling out to come back and make the back side deep throw.

220
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:41pm

# 213:

I have to say, while it’s a frequent occurrence for fans of the losing team to complain about how the officials cost them the game (see SB XL), this is one of the few times I’ve heard such vociferous complaning from the fans of the winning team about how they got jobbed by the officials.
That just shows that it is out of a genuine concern for crappy officiating, and not just whining and excuse making after a loss.

221
by Lyford (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:41pm

NFL says CBS says it was their production glitch.

Link?

222
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:42pm

214.

I seem to remember the Steelers fans being quite vocal about the 2005 AFC championship.

223
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:44pm
224
by langsty (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:48pm

I can't read all this right now, but I just wanted to add that I was a little surprised by how Indy dominated on both lines of scrimmage. The whole "Indy's o-line kinda sux" meme y'all were touting last year is looking pretty ridic right now.

225
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:49pm

212: So your argument is the Pats should have started kneeling on the ball with 12 minutes left in the game?

226
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:51pm

222.

Langsty, they did dominate in the 1st half, but a good deal of that was because NE played dime the entire first half. Its tough to stop the run from DIME.

Indy's Oline got absolutely abused in the last 25 minutes of the game.

227
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:51pm

Can a team be "flexed" more than once? Because I'd think NBC would want Pats/Steelers. Of course, as I recall, CBS has some vetos. I imagine they'd use one if NBC tried to grab that game.

228
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:51pm

#223 - Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

229
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:52pm

226

Could you please give me an example of another team that has kneeled the ball out with 13 minutes left?

If the Pats SHOULD do it, then surely theres some precedent.

230
by Fat Tony (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:53pm

re: 204 Actually, the Pats were up 38 during that sequence, not 45. Admittedly, the practical difference is negligible, but your quest for ultimate truth would be better served if you got the small details correct.

231
by Fat Tony (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 5:56pm

whoops, not 204. damn small details.... I was referring to all of the posts claiming the pass to Moss occurred with a 45 point lead...

232
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:01pm

Bleah.

NBC has grabbed Pats/Bills (18 Nov) away from CBS. I hate hate hate flex scheduling.
Damn, now I won't be able to take my kid to the game, and I'd definitely have to think hard about going myself. Gee, thanks NBC.

233
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:01pm

225: It's not vetos so much as CBS can protect a certain number of games. Pats/Steelers is presumably one that they protected.
226: Fair enough, if you really believe that, there's obviously nothing I can do to change your mind.

234
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:03pm

Pats/Colts significantly topped Pats/Boys. According to MediaLife magazine:
The New England Patriots-Indianapolis Colts gamed lived up to its billing, both in the quality of football played and the number of viewers brought in.

The final half hour of the nationally televised game attracted a huge 32.7 million total viewers on CBS, according to Nielsen overnights, from 7 to 7:30 p.m.

The game, which pitted two undefeated teams and saw the Patriots come from behind to win, also averaged an 11.4 adults 18-49 rating, 23 percent above the 9.3 average for the end of the Patriots-Dallas Cowboys game last month.

That game was the highest-rated matchup on CBS since the network reacquired pro football rights in 1998, and last night’s game looks likely to outrate it when final ratings for the game come out later this week. Preliminary ratings measure timeslot and not actual program data.

235
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:06pm

"The game, which pitted two undefeated teams and saw the Patriots come from behind to win, also averaged an 11.4 adults 18-49 rating, 23 percent above the 9.3 average for the end of the Patriots-Dallas Cowboys game last month."

Is that really surprising though? This was a good game. You could have turned the Pats/Boys game off with about 10 minutes left.

236
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:08pm

228,

Sorry. You're right. It was 38-0. The NFL.com play-by-play shows that it was 45-0 at the end of the third quarter. I was going by that. (Click link in my name)

237
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:11pm

B, I was being sarcastic in #226 due to the fact that never once did I suggest the Patriots kneel on the ball, yet somehow it was inferred from my comments.

238
by patriotsgirl (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:13pm

225, 231: I suspect they may not have even made a play for Pats/Steelers, as 1) it may have been protected; and 2) they have IND/BAL that night anyway, which should draw some eyeballs. (Whereas the night of the NE/BUF game, they now have CHI/SEA.)

Of course, looking at the schedule for December 9 makes me realize I'll need to hunt down a sports bar, as both NE/PIT and NYG/PHI will be on (and DAL/DET, too), and I won't be able to watch a single damn one of them from home because of the %#@#ing Raiders. Sigh.

239
by Bob (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:16pm

"two teams that are far ahead of the rest of the league."
"I mean no disrespect to the Steelers fans, but it would be a mind-blowing, 1996 Jacksonville-level shock if these teams did not play each other again in the AFC Championship."

Okaaay, lol. I guess we should just skip the rest of the season, lol. I mean pullllease. They are both very good teams who are both definitely beatable. What happened to Any Given Sunday. I'm sorry, but these statements are flat out nuts. What about injuries? What about luck? Just so I can take credit for it later, the Pats won't make the SB, you can mark it down. Remember it, because I'll be back once its true. Once again, the Pats will NOT make the Superbowl.

240
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:16pm

I think my original try at this got eaten up. NFL.com (incorrectly) lists the Patriots being up 45-0 at the end of the third quarter in its play-by-play for the NE-Was game. That's why I was using that figure.

241
by Bob (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:18pm

I agreet that the Pats are defitely overrated by the media and such. The lovefest is laughaqble. I think they will get beat as well. But if they make it to the Superbowl, then may Cowboys will be ready to take them off of their pedestal, haha.

242
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:19pm

I think my original 2 tries at this got eaten up. NFL.com (incorrectly) lists the Patriots being up 45-0 at the end of the third quarter in its play-by-play for the NE-Was game. That's why I was using that figure.

243
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:22pm

238

I'm not surprised. NFL.com is REALLY screwy on some stuff. I've sent their webmaster a couple of emails about stuff like that, and columns not adding up (fumbles lost for QBs was really bad, guys listed as having 5 this season, and 3 total for their careers)

The webmaster doesn't seem to care.

244
by Julio (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:24pm

Pats were without their best LB (Adalius
Thomas) and their best power runner
(Sammy Morris), the Pats had to play in the Noyzdome/Sweatdome, they had absurd calls made against them all day, and they STILL beat the Colts! How many times did the Pats beat the Colts when Marvin Harrison played? How far ahead were the Pats last year in the AFC title game before their makeshift D without 3 of its regulars got winded in the Sweatdome? Please!

245
by patriotsgirl (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:25pm

It's amazing to think about how if the Raiders had sold out this weekend, the Bay Area would miss NE/Dal, NE/Ind, and NE/Pit (among other Games of the Week so far).

As someone who is subjected to the Raiders and 49ers each week (and thus never gets ANY game of the week unless the Raiders are playing at home and are blacked out), I'm quite happy with flex scheduling.

They really need to change the rule that says you can't have football counterprogramming against the home team when it's a 2-market city (like they modify the blackout rule), as it leads to the perverse result that we almost never get 3 daytime games on a weekend here. (From what I remember from living near Buffalo, Seattle and LA, we almost always got three games - one doubleheader, one single game - but ignore me if I'm remembering it wrong.)

246
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:25pm

234: It was probably the part where you said the Pats could win the game by keeping the clock running even without getting another first down.

247
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:30pm

#241 - that was one of the reason that so many people in LA were happy the Rams and Raiders left. More games on TV. What they didn't realize is that the local stations would end up shoving the Chargers and Raiders down our throats each week.

#242 - I didn't say kneel. And one of the factors involved in running the ball on every play for an entire quarter is that you would probably end up picking up the first down occasionally.

248
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:34pm

Another bad play by Brady (though it worked out OK) -- the TD pass to Moss. He had two other people wide open in the endzone and forced it in to Moss. He's got to watch out about developing tunnel vision.

249
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:35pm

243: But you said they didn't need first downs, so why risk a fumble or an injury?

250
by Richie (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:37pm

I give up. I changed my mind. It is not an act of running up the score to throw deep passes while up 38-0 early in the 4th quarter.

251
by starzero (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:43pm

who can stop the patriots now?

252
by Cyrus (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:43pm

Ok. Since you didn't read past that post, we'll give you a break. But a Mod has already said that no more posts about religion/political views/Dungy/Belichick.

And I would love to add to that "Running up the score."

It really doesn't matter anymore, for the love of god and all that is holy, end that stupid asinine discussion.

Its like two morons trying to win a pissing contest to see who can piss themselves more. "My pants are wetter!"

253
by Al 45 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:47pm

re: 246

Richie.. honestly, which gives you a better chance of maintaining possession of the ball by gaining a first down and keeping the clock moving. A run play into an 8 or 9 in the box defense, or a pass play to Moss who had single coverage?

Considering the success rate of Brady to Moss, I have to believe it's a pass play to Moss.

Continually running into a defense that has 8 and 9 guys in the box is not likely to result in any first down plays.

254
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:50pm

250.

Also, kneeling the ball out is going to assure your defense is going to spend a lot of time on the field, and maybe the Pats felt that the risk of injury to the defense (probably the secondary) was higher than the risk of injury to the offense.

255
by stan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:54pm

Don't have time to read all comments. Sorry if this covers old ground:

1. Colts lost because of kicking game, dropped passes, and the injuries to Harrison and Gonzalez. The kicking game and drops must have cost them close to 200 yards. Amazing the game was even close.

2. Once Pats figured out that Moorehead was a self-check, they were more aggressive in bringing defenders into the box. This shut down the run game and amped up the pass rush pressure. This was where the injuries hurt the worst (although LT was pretty close). Had a legit threat still been in the game at WR, Manning would have had hot routes available. Moorehead doesn't have the ability to provide that, so the weaknesses in the line got exposed.

3. Moorehead didn't get his feet inbounds because he jumped up to catch the ball on his chest! If he uses his hands as he should, he is easily inbounds. This is even worse than a dropped pass.

4. Moss got called for PI because he used both hands like a basketball rebounder to pin the defender behind him.

5. Why do people have such a hard time understanding that a DB can commit PI with any part of his body? If you run into the WR rather than play the ball, it is PI. Even if you use your back or butt to make the contact. Doesn't matter if you turn your body and look back at the ball, if you initiate contact with the WR you get the flag. Even if you throw up your hands in a pretense that you are going for the ball.

256
by Chris (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 6:54pm

129- Colvin and Thomas are god now and Mike Vrabel is slow? Vrabel is one of the best and smartest LBs in the league! "Smarts" are still underrated at LB. Was it Dick Vermiel at the draft saying that a 4.8 speed LB with good angles can easily be better than the LB running a 4.5 or 4.6. Having Seau, Bruschi, Vrable, Colvin, Thomas ( vet players) on the same page adds to their aggregate value.

The officiating wasn't perfect, but when is it ever? The worst calls imo were the faulk non PI, and the Hobbs PI, but bad calls happen... they happen every game...get over it. The NFL refs are pretty darn good.

I thought the game was close, but what really killed the Colts down the stretch was that Peyton Manning was throwing passes to Fletcher/Morehead at the end of the game instead of Harrison/Gonzalez. Why the heck does Morehead even have a roster spot? The Giants had this beast of a man Anthony Mix on their practice squad last year, but the Colts are wasting a roster spot on that Morehead?

Can somebody please email me the story on the Tony Dungy stuff? He spoke at a fundraiser for an anti-gay group? The only reason I can think of why this didn't get any press is that the media wants Dungy to be the "Jackie Robinson" of coaches so bad. I was unaware of that stuff, but it is hard to ignore the post game handshake ( or lack thereof) between Bellicheck and Dungy.

257
by punter (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:00pm

Having gone through the game, the boards, the thread and read all topics analyzed and over-analyzed, here is a factor that might need some thought - heart, or desire to win, or whatever the word-du-jour is for that intangible quality. While i realize this is more of a quant forum, I think any comparitive analysis of this game or these two teams is incomplete without looking into that. It might need reminding that it's one of the most important factors that make us watch sports and create legends.

258
by MDZ (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:00pm

Chris, the handshake is a non-story. People who went to the game said Dungy and BB shook hands, the CBS cameras just caught them walking past one another after they had talked to other people.

259
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:01pm

252.

"4. Moss got called for PI because he used both hands like a basketball rebounder to pin the defender behind him."

You mean, that same hand that Kelvin Hayden was holding. Watch the tape. He has his hand around Moss's wrist, holding him.

"If you run into the WR rather than play the ball, it is PI"
Yes, which is why it should have been PI... ON REGGIE WAYNE.

Hobbs had better position, and was going for the ball. He GOT TO THE BALL, and Wayne tackled him from behind.

260
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:02pm

Re: #252

I was wondering if we'd be getting yet another installment of "no Colt opponent has ever won a game -- all Colts losses have been because the Colts lost it" from stan. Good to know the earth is still spinning on its axis.

261
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:04pm

Re: #255

"Swagger".

:)

262
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:05pm

256.

I think the bigger story (regarding Hand Shakes) is Peyton Manning being so scared of Tom Brady that he had to wear his helmet to shake hands.

/end-media

263
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:09pm

#258:
No, Stan cannot be done yet. He forgot to discuss at length how Peyton really played a practically perfect game, was screwed by inept receivers and the Pats' cheating defenders, while Brady looked inaccurate and off all day, as we have come to expect of him throughout his overrated career.

Then, and only then, will the Earth's spinning resume.

264
by Chris (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:09pm

256- OK, it wouldn't be the first time the media said or showed something out of context :)

So if you are the Patriots, what do you do next time? Bring in extra tight ends ( Kyle B) and run smash mouth football right at that faster smaller Colts D in a cold Boston winter? I do think Lawerence M. is a beast that wasn't healthy, and that the Pats should run right at the Colts next time. It also seems that the draw play is what kills that Colts D ( as the Jags really exposed last year).

I think that game in cold on grass on a slower field really benefits the Patriots. Not only will the Pats probably be more effective running the ball, but a slower game beneifts that Patriots "veteran" linebacker core that can take better angles as speed ( say of Addai) is slowed down and the angles of Bruschi/Seau etc. are more valueable. Remember, the Colts were only a mediocre 4-4 on the road last regular season. I certainly wouldn't count out Peyton Manning, but if the Pats do lock up homefield like they should... it will be a huge advantage.

265
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:10pm

Re: #262

Gillette Stadium is FieldTurf, not grass.

266
by Al 45 (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:12pm

re: 262

I think the Patriots already figured out what they have to do. Go no huddle, keep the defense on the field, and with Freeney and Mathis continually going all out to get Brady, they'll both be gassed very quickly.

That's what happened in this game. When the Patriots went to the no huddle, they couldn't get any extra rest, and their ability to pressure Brady was limited (and the Patriots were in the spread, with limited protection, on their two TD drives).

Also, I think playing at home, and not having to go on a silent count, will help the Patriots offensive line as well.

267
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:13pm

263.

yeah, but theres a big speed difference between running in a 75 degree dome, and running outside in 20 degree weather with a heavy wind.

268
by Chris (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:21pm

263- Field turf is still a slower field than flat flat turf. Flat turf in a controlled enviornment is a lot different than field turf outside as the other poster pointed out.

Rich- The media loves Fungi and will look to credit him whenever possible.

269
by mawbrew (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:26pm

Re: 267

Wow. Rich if you can provide support that demonstrates Dungy 'openly supports''people being beaten and killed for their beliefs' you should turn it in to the commish. I think Dungy will get a really big fine.

By the way, if you can support that I'll also head up the 'Rich Conley isn't really so bad' club.

270
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:29pm

Assuming that the AFCC game will in fact be against the Colts in Foxborough, I think it is reasonable to say the Pats' Razor advantage will be less pronounced this year than in years past, but
a) whatever edge the receiver will lose, the Pats' main weak spot - the slow LB set - will likely gain;
b) Addai's quick cuts will also suffer;
and
c) it is worth noting that from now on all of the Colts games will be in the dome or warm weather (including most likely the divisional round), the only exception being @BAL, while all of the Pats games will be in open stadiums in the north-east. This I think may be quite significant.

Colts:
@ San Diego
Kansas City
@ Atlanta
Jacksonville
@ Baltimore
@ Oakland
Houston
Tennessee

Pats:
@ Buffalo
Philadelphia
@ Baltimore
Pittsburgh
NY Jets
Miami
@ NY Giants

271
by Herm? (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:31pm

clearly, the only reason Brady was inaccurate was to show how awesome Randy Moss is when leaping and catching passes with one hand (kidding)
I'd agree that Brady had some accuracy problems, but not when it mattered most.
And we all know why...pressure. Dwight Freeney is a big jerk. I'm hoping the SF pick is used on a flux capacitor so we can go get Bruce Armstrong. He had the power to stop Bruce Smith (the Bills super alltime pass rushing end guy who lined up in the neutral zone on every down)

272
by azibuck (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:31pm

Bill Barnwell:Two things on this: The Law of Unintended Consequences comes into play. Anytime a defensive back was in a bad spot 40 yards downfield, he’d just shove the receiver down and take the 15-yard penalty. It would kill deep plays.
Yeah, it's really ruined college football. They never even try to throw deep any more. These days it's all wishbone.

273
by Chris (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:31pm

At least Rich gives you his thought out opinion of things. He isn't like the media types saying " well maybe the Colts will win but then again maybe the Patriots will win".

274
by Digit (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:33pm

re: 270

So basically, are you arguing that the Patriots will have time to find plays that work for their offense in cold weather?

275
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:34pm

clearly, the only reason Brady was inaccurate was to show how awesome Randy Moss is when leaping and catching passes with one hand (kidding)
Actually no, no kidding. Check this pic out:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0711/nfl.week9...
Air friggin' Jordan

276
by MDZ (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:35pm

I just don't get the knocks about Maroney's running. Sure he may be a turnstyle in pass protection, but with the exception of the play where he got nailed by a blitzing Marlin Jackson, he was running hard and strong. While he may not have broken a 20 yarder, he still turned a lot of 2 yard carries into 5 yard carries by dragging defenders.

277
by Chris (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:37pm

270- Intersting, maybe the Colts will suffer a "clash" when they go outside to Foxborro in a few months.

Why must people insist that the Patriots linebackers are "slow"? Is there really any difference between a 4.6 and a 4.7 or 4.8 in such limited space? Jon Beason might be a few tenths of a second faster in the 40, but that doesn't mean he is a better player. Donte Stallworth would be a hell of a lot faster LB than Bruschi or Seau, but that doesn't mean he would be better.

278
by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 8:55pm

#278:
I think more that than raw speed, people mean reflexes, cutting ability etc, which undoubtedly decrease with age. The hardest thing to do on a frozen field is not much running straight at top speed, but changing direction quickly and sharply.

On the other hand, yesterday's game has shown that experience and smarts can at least in part compensate for age, so honestly I don't think it's that big of a deal myself. Maybe I am an optimist, but I tend to think that a lot of the perceived weakness of the pats linebackers were so far more often the result of tactical decisions, and in some cases injuries, than actual physical deficiencies.

279
by louis (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 8:56pm

New England could have run into the middle of the line for no gain every play of the fourth quarter and even if Washington could suddenly move the ball on offense, they wouldn’t have enough time to make up 45 points.

That may be so, but I think we can both agree that it would have taken much longer for the game to end that way. Seems like with a 38 point lead and the game decided, the sporting thing to do is just to get it over with as fast as possible.

280
by Bill Barnwell :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 9:12pm

I don't know how we can make this any clearer. It's pretty much the only rule we have and, amazingly, people either troll, get trolled into, or blatantly ignore the rule.

NO POLITICS.

The relevant posts have been deleted and their posters are going to be placed on restriction. Anyone who continues it or engages in personal attacks otherwise following this post can also expect the same. Seriously now.

281
by Cyrus (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 9:19pm

RE: 275

Yay! I understand he sometimes was "tricked" into it after people questioned his original statement.

But another Mod clearly stated it would not be allowed afterwards, and I helpfully (snicker) reminded them after it came up again... and yet they continued to discuss.

It really doesn't matter how Dungy and Belichick are as people. I'd like to think both are nice to their inner circle, and I would love to meet either one.

But that and the "running up the score" debacle have completely ruined every Patriots forum on here, so I vote that all future games remain separate. So I can enjoy the non-Patriots thread.

282
by Bill Barnwell :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 9:35pm

Yeah, it’s really ruined college football. They never even try to throw deep any more. These days it’s all wishbone.

College quarterbacks, as a whole, have nowhere near the same ability to throw the ball deep that professional quarterbacks do.

283
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 9:40pm

Wow -- so Pats/Colts had the biggest Sunday afternoon regular season audience in 20 years. All the more impressive considering the fragmentation of the viewing populace since then.

284
by Paul Casassa (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 11:10pm

I'm already sick and tired of listening to Colts fans (and some in the media) blaming their loss on the absence of Harrison, Ugoh, et al.....Whah, whah, whah.

The Patriots have been winning games, even SUPER BOWLS for YEARS now with key guys hurt at different times. Injuries are part of the game, and the best teams usually have strong depth.

The Patriots just had to put Sammy Morris on IR this past week. Given his strong production in combination with Maroney right into the Dallas game, how would THAT have impacted their running game yesterday? I'd say it would have contributed very significantly, which also would have helped the passing game.

So enough already with the bogus "we'll be at full strength NEXT TIME. You won't. No one is after the first game of the season.

285
by Paul Casassa (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 11:22pm

I'm already sick and tired of listening to Colts fans (and some in the media) blaming their loss on the absence of Harrison, Ugoh, et al.....Whah, whah, whah.

The Patriots have been winning games, even SUPER BOWLS for YEARS now with key guys hurt at different times. Injuries are part of the game, and the best teams usually have strong depth.

The Patriots just had to put Sammy Morris on IR this past week. Given his strong production in combination with Maroney right into the Dallas game, how would Morris' PRODUCTION impacted the Patriots running game yesterday? I'd say it would have contributed very significantly, which also would have helped the passing game. But in the end, the Patriots still won.

So enough already with the bogus "we'll be at full strength NEXT TIME. You won't. No one is after the first game of the season.

286
by Cyrus (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 11:24pm

Hey Dave--

I finally uploaded the link about Tedy Bruschi. I put it in the "Website" field... not sure how you access that, but have fun with it.

287
by Cyrus (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 11:28pm

Ok, this link works. (The percentage sign was in the last link.)

288
by Subrata Sircar (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 11:32pm

In the first half, it looked like Indy had a really good game plan; as others mentioned, once it was clear that the Patriots would put Harrison on Clark, they ran an offense designed to get Addai the ball with a linebacker to beat ... and he did. It didn't look like poor tackling to me as much as it looked like the Pats LBs weren't in position to make real tackles, and had to take a shot as he went by. I counted six or seven times in the first half when Richard Seymour made the tackle after Addai was past the LBs.

I don't know who the Patriots play that has the ability to scheme up and execute something like that - maybe Pittsburgh, although their O-line is shaky - but it sure seemed like the Colts came out determined to attack the Patriots LBs and did a good job.

In the second half, it looked like the Patriots changed to attacking the O-line more and engaging them more directly, to prevent them from chipping the LBs. They also seemed to put a safety on Addai when he went into coverage. I'd love to hear what the game charters see when they rewind the tapes.

289
by azibuck (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2007 - 11:39pm

#277 -- Non-sequitur. If what you said originally is true, it would happen in college all the time. It doesn't. I don't think I've ever heard an announcer say, "he was clearly beaten so he took the 15-yard penalty by tackling the receiver, instead of give up the touchdown." Never.

290
by BC (not verified) :: Tue, 11/06/2007 - 1:15am

If you missed Belichick on WEEI tonight, he made a point that he didn't think the team was going in the direction of Corey Dillon, because it would be very difficult to give up a roster spot for a guy who factors into a small role (ie short yardage running, no special teams). He won't cut guys like Heath Evans or Kyle Eckel because they play big roles on special teams, and he won't carry another RB. Yes he put Morris on the IR, but he activated a DB I hadn't heard of, and Troy Brown is coming back in 3 weeks or less (and if Troy Brown is not your hero, you have no soul).

291
by Yaguar (not verified) :: Tue, 11/06/2007 - 1:23am

280: Oh, yes, losing your backup RB is really comparable to losing a Hall of Fame WR.

Go retreat to a Pats fan site and then you won't have to hear valid arguments. Also, then you won't have to deal with the fact that everyone hates your team, and hates its fans even worse.

292
by Bill Barnwell :: Tue, 11/06/2007 - 1:25am

#277 — Non-sequitur. If what you said originally is true, it would happen in college all the time. It doesn’t. I don’t think I’ve ever heard an announcer say, “he was clearly beaten so he took the 15-yard penalty by tackling the receiver, instead of give up the touchdown.� Never.

That's a good point, too. I think there are a lot more wide-open deep passes in college football than in the pros, though.

293
by Paul Casassa (not verified) :: Tue, 11/06/2007 - 1:28am

One other peeve:

I've heard some analysts remark "other teams now have the blueprint to beat the Patriots."

Really?

Because I'm pretty sure the Patriots remain undefeated. So what blueprint, the one that gives a lead for 3Q but succumbs in the end, I suppose?

I agree that in the first half the Colts D came out fast and hard, and frankly their speed overwhelmed the Pats O line. Despite first half adjustments, the Pats didn't have enough time for Brady to set and throw without tremendous pressure. And yeah, I too wonder what's up with Maroney. He seems to have the skills but that doesn't always translate into yards.

While the Colts were decidedly faster in the first half, they are also decidedly smaller, and I believe, not as well conditioned. Speculation? No. By 3Q, Freeney and Mathis were gassed and coming out regularly to catch their breath. Seeing this, the Patriots picked up the pace. To continue Dungy's Ali-Frazier analogy, the Patriots, whether intentionally or not, almost used the Ali-Foreman "rope-a-dope". They gassed the Colts D, which finally gave Brady time to execute. If not for the advantage in size/strength/conditioning, how else can you explain the Freeney/Mathis trips to the sideline, and consequential drop in pressure on Brady?

294
by JohnR (not verified) :: Tue, 11/06/2007 - 1:33am

286: you forgot to say 'nyah, nyah'

History has nothing to do with it. Look at the numbers so far this year. You could make a case that Morris has had more impact on his team's offense this year than Harrison has. Harrison has been in 5 games, has one TD and averages around 50 yards per game. It has nothing to do with how many pro bowls he went to - it has everything to do with what he has added to his team this year.

But you wouldn't want to consider actual facts, would you? and, btw, the Pats have beaten the Colts in the past even when they have had pro bowlers out of the game (e.g. Ty Law, Seymour, etc) Please, don't make excuses. Good football teams don't.

295
by Yaguar (not verified) :: Tue, 11/06/2007 - 1:37am

Oh, also, I don't get why you guys hate Laurence Maroney so much. He's got 4.7 yards per carry on the year. It's not like the guy sucks or anything.

Admittedly, he is kind of superfluous, given that the Pats pass from the shotgun up 38-0 in the third quarter. (No doubt because they're cheating.)

Also, did I mention that the 2001 playoffs were a fluke?

296
by Paul Casassa (not verified) :: Tue, 11/06/2007 - 1:37am

uh, #286, Yagurl.........

Morris' production has been on par with, or been even greater than Maroney's. So yuh, it was a big loss for the team.

And, oh btw, do tell........ how many yards of pass production did pro-bowler Harrison give the Colts in last year's AFC Championship game?

Yeah, he and Wayne were SHUT DOWN by Samuel/Hobbs.

Your team LOST!

:)

297
by Yaguar (not verified) :: Tue, 11/06/2007 - 1:39am

Oh, also, I forgot to mention:

Dynasties are built primarily on luck, Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of all time, the tuck rule is BS, and Red Sox Nation can bite me.

298
by JohnR (not verified) :: Tue, 11/06/2007 - 1:41am

now for serious debate - the Pats hurry-up is what finally brought the Colts down. I am pretty surprised that it took them 3 quarters to finally go to it.

It really went a long way towards neutralizing the pass rush and I think played no small part in the Colts D being winded in the end.

It does have to be pretty discouraging to a D that Brady can seem to hit Moss at will with 60 yard strikes when he needs to. Are there any numbers on how successful Brady to Moss bombs have been? I am guessing it is somewhere near or north of 50%.

Unlike some others, I thought the Manning pass on 3rd-and-2 was in keeping with what the Colts typically do. The Pats had a run D in. Wayne was single covered. The Colts saw that - Manning threw a good pass - and Wayne just dropped it. If he catches it, everyone is praising the "gutsiness" of the call.

299
by Yaguar (not verified) :: Tue, 11/06/2007 - 1:50am

OK, agreed on no more silliness. I think the "Rope-a-Dope" analogy is really apt. The Indy defense always starts out at that ridiculous level of energy in any important game. The idea is that they make scoring pretty difficult for about a quarter, at all costs, allowing Manning to build a lead, and then they can ease up and start keying in on the pass.

The problem this time was mostly that the opponent's defense was too good to let Manning build a big lead, and the opponent's offense was good enough to make up the gap pretty easily.

300
by Temo (not verified) :: Tue, 11/06/2007 - 1:54am

#164- So it's now been confirmed that the skipping crowd noise was on CBS, not the colts. And Chris Mortenson on Monday Night Countdown insinuated that CBS actually puts in fake crowd noise into their telecasts to "enchance the game for the viewers."
This would go perfectly with what your friend said about the dolby 5.1 thing. You couldn't hear the skipping in the surround sound because the noise wasn't coming from the building itself, it was coming from a CBS tape.