Talk amongst yourselves
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04 Jan 2013
This is the place for all-day discussion Sunday of Indianapolis at Baltimore followed by Seattle at Washington.
Posted by: Aaron Schatz on 04 Jan 2013
248 replies , Last at
12 Jan 2013, 9:57pm by
Wow that's crazy news about Arians. Seems like a good guy and hope he's OK, not to be crass but I wonder how that's going to effect Indy's offense.
Go Redskins! My friends are skiing today, and I'm at home in front of the TV. Let's hope for two entertaining games that make my decision worth it!
One game down. So far, so good!
7th best special teams of DVOA era!
Simms: "Joe Flacco is as dangerous a thrower as there is in the NFL."
Carey: "the ruling is a fumble recovered by Indiana"
This is technically correct. Every time Joe Flacco throws, something very dangerous could happen. Torrey Smith might score a long touchdown. Ray Rice might convert a 4th-and-29 checkdown. The defense might score 6 points. Every throw is potentially dangerous.
it's funny because not long after, flacco threw a ball that could've been picked off and they did use dangerous in that form, calling it a dangerous throw.
Wow! I've been hoping for the Ravens to play the line of McKinnie, Osemele, Birk, Yanda, Oher from left to right ALL YEAR! Have they been saving this lineup for the playoffs? Seems dubious since line continuity is important. But maybe its taken McKinnie 17 weeks to get in shape. Crazy.
maybe its taken McKinnie 17 weeks to get in shape
I don't know if it's more funny or sad that this sounds like a reasonable possibility
Vikings fans could tell you that sometimes 17 weeks isn't enough.
Great time for Rice's 2nd fumble of the season.
I've never before heard this "big four" referenced. I'm taking it to mean "the four guys whose names Jim Nantz knows," 'cause it's certainly not "Baltimore's four best defenders," who still aren't all on the field.
While I can see we where you are coming from I don't think it's that unreasonable to think of Ngata, Lewis, Reed and Suggs as a 'big four'. If that's going to enjoy you then I'd advise you to hit the mute button because Simms is capable of much worse.
Nobody in Baltimore calls them the "big four" btw, its not a regional thing. I'm surprised they didn't go with the "core four". Rhyming is fun!
So why did Mike Carey give the ball to Indy? That's just horrible.
It was rather dubious.
it was my impression that he was awarding the ball to the Hoosiers. Maybe he's a fan.
That would make just about as much sense as giving it to the Colts did.
Paul Kruger has turned into a good pass rusher. Unfortunately for the Ravens its taken 4 years, and now he'll be a free agent at the end of the season.
Wow, that was a gift, Ray-Ray.
Lewis refuses to cooperate with the narrative by dropping the gift INT...
Not that they'll actually let that stop the narrative.
how does the gunner not know that he can't be the first to touch it?
Does it matter on a punt that he was forced out of bounds?
no, it's your responsibility to stay inside
Yeah, I just heard the explanation from the announcers. I fail.
When somebody makes a particularly boneheaded play, displaying a total lack of situational awareness, I have to wonder if it was because the player was high on opiate pain pills.
On the other hand, sometimes I wonder the same thing after a particularly amazing play, where a player displayed a seemingly preternatural ability to focus and react without conscious thought. Opiate pain pills can be performance enhancing and performance inhibiting, all at the same time.
So what pills doors Phil Simms take?
If you asked about Joe Buck and Troy Aikman, I'd guess some kind of tranquilizer/hypnotic. With Simms it's impossible to tell, probably a cocktail of god knows what!
a the player didn't know he was pushed out of bounds
b the player didn't know it was illegal to be the first to touch the ball
c the player rather made the play and took the penalty, than to leave the ball alone and stay away from it.
d the player is very stupid
How cool would it be if they renamed the team 'the Rayvens'.
I couldn't ask this yesterday, but did I hear Hines Ward say that the Vikings would be better off if AP had short runs instead of long runs because that would keep Rodgers off the field? I'm hoping I misheard. I'm hoping nobody could say something that...wrong.
Hey, assuming they kept getting first downs and scoring points, he'd be right!
he did say that.
Dan Patrick responded by asking, if AD is on a long run and has 65 yards, should he just fall down rather than score the touchdown? Ward responded seriously, yes, he should fall down.
Aaaaaand this is why I don't watch those kind of shows anymore.
Well its been a close game so far. But the Ravens have a chance to get a lead because if they can score in the 2 minute drill and then to start the second half as well.
Whichever team wins this is just going to get obliterated in Denver next weekend. Can we just fast-forward to the AFC Championship game please?
Football is a little more unpredictable than that unfortunately. If you don't believe me, try to make money gambling on it.
I expect the odds to fully reflect the likelihood that Denver win easily. Of course, other stuff could feasibly happen.
the odds are already out for next week.
DEN -10.5 over IND
DEN -8.5 over BAL
ATL -6.5 over WAS
ATL -2.5 over SEA
SF -3 over GB
NE -8.5 over HOU
So if its certainty that Denver wins, put all your money on the Denver moneyline.
For fans of teams other than NE and Denver, its always nice to have some semblance of hope, even when the odds are stacked.
edit: double post
Denver and New England will both be about 1 to 4 favorites to win, after removing the vig.
That equates to an 80% chance for each. The odds of them facing each other would then be about 64%.
So dismissing a 36% chance is rather silly.
Thanks for the numbers Sid.
Of course. My comment was just knee-jerk frustration at what was a really sloppy first half to this game (and awful game yesterday). Wasn't supposed to be taken literally. I do understand basic probability.
Ha. I too was once humbled by my complete failure to succeed at that. Besides, a healthy Baltimore defense is much better than the one the Broncos played. Still, the Broncos have to be a pretty strong favorite, but it's not unreasonable to think that if the Ravens played well and got one or two big plays go their way, the game could be uncomfortably close.
yeah we should just give the lombardi trophy to whichever team had the most wins in the regular season (or the highest DVOA).
I don't get what the point of playing games is.
Somebody else posted it.
somebody else posted what?
I was going to erase my post, but it wouldn't let me. I didn't know the Vegas odds, but I was going to mention that if Denver and New England had .75 odds of winning, the odds they meet would still only be .56. But you posted the same thing with the actual Vegas odds, so my post was unnecessary.
and there you have it. Denver loses.
I forgot that the NFL uses different rulebooks for playoffs and regular season.
The difference seems to be a bit extreme.
Was literally about to post "Wow Pierce is a better RB than Rice today..." then Rice reminded why that's not true with that screen pass.
I think Pierce is probably better running between the tackles at this point in the season. However, he can't catch or pass block well at all.
hey simms, you get the penalty and the 10 second runoff. It's not one or the other.
It can be one or the other, actually. The team against whom the foul was committed can decline the runoff while accepting the penalty. The team who committed the foul can spend a timeout instead of taking the runoff.
yes, they always give the option of using a timeout rather than taking the runoff.
My point was that Simms was acting like Baltimore was choosing the runoff over the penalty. The runoff is standard and you'd obviously take it the vast majority of the time.
Utterly pathetic "defense" there.
That's such bad defense by the Ravens. But why is Kruger dropping 20 yards back into coverage on 3rd and forever? Just put another DB in there, my god that's so stupid.
3 and 19 and I kind of assumed that the Colts would give it up.
Because I'm a Broncos fan who remembers what it's like to watch a terrible defense. So sorry Indy fans.
Wow. 3rd and 26 ineptitude is repaid by 3rd and 19 ineptitude.
Made the mistake of listening to the CBS halftime show. After all the years he has been a broadcaster, why does Shannon Sharpe still sound like Mushmouth from the Fat Albert show?
Andrew Luck did well to get out of that series alive, never mind without turning it over.
That's why his completion percentage is so low this year. This is the kind of "protection" Luck's gotten all season.
Picking on Vaughn.
It seems to me that this game is all about the front line play. I find myself not even watching the QB's.
I think you go for it down there, no? I mean you are kicking to go down 8.
Normally I'd agree with you, but the Colts are moving the ball fairly consistently and Flacco's been hit-or-miss all game, so getting within a score makes sense to me -particularly with this much time on the clock.
On this occasion I disagree. That field goal's the difference between a two-score game and a one-score game.
I get your point, but using "x-score game" as an argument for anything is dicy. That term equates a 1-point lead to a 8-point lead.
It can, but the bigger point is about the large difference between an 11 point deficit and an 8 point deficit. Getting to where you can tie and/or win on one drive is game-changing.
Oh, absolutely. I do think, however, that at this point in the game the difference between needing 11 points and needing 8 points is large enough not to risk the 3 points trying to reduce the deficit to 5, 4, or 3 points (failed 2pt, PAT, or successful 2pt).
Of course, between Vinatieri's subsequent miss and that Boldin touchdown the field goal is now pretty much moot whereas the touchdown wouldn't have been. I still think kicking the field goal was the correct decision there, however.
It'd be an 11 point deficit instead of 15. Either way it's two scores - difficult but doable. On the other hand, had they not gotten any points, it'd be an 18 point lead for Baltimore. Three scores and effectively, game over.
I can certainly see it. I'm on the fence i guess.
Although some of Boldin's catches have been really impressive, Vaughn looks lost.
Yup. Looked like he had deep help, but still ran deep on the first fake..
Cam Cameron would've targeted Vontae Davis. Somehow.
And I thought Tanier was joking this season when he wrote about the Flacco howitzer offense...
If Baltimore scores here, expect to here Nantz and Sims go crazy over the "point swing" following the missed figgie.
Throw lobs to Boldin and abuse the Colts terrible #2/3 CBs. As a Colts fan, I'm not surprised really, but it is saddening.
Looking ahead, two drafts focusing on D and the Colts should be damn good by 2014. Not expecting much more than 7-9 or 8-8 next year, but that's OK for as young as these guys are.
I'm sure the Colts' fans here on FO have more realistic expectations for the team's future given their extreme overachieving according to DVOA, etc.. How upset will the majority of the fan base be if they "regress" from 11-5 to 7-9?
Remember, the Colts were having a REBUILDING year! That fact is reflected in their advanced stats, but was this not the most successful rebuilding year in history? They made it to the playoffs in year 1, and they're actually competing with Baltimore. This game feels closer than the score would indicate right now.
Only because of two fumbles by a typically sure-handed running back. I completely agree with everything else you said, but this game is a blowout in disguise.
was this not the most successful rebuilding year in history?
No. The 2008 Miami Dolphins won their division at 11-5 one year after going 1-15.
They were also blown out in the wild card round... by the Baltimore Ravens.
Wasn't '99 a rebuilding year for the Rams?
Not really, since it was the third year with the same head coach.
It was more of a "this better start paying off right now or you're fired" year.
What about the 2004 Steelers? They went 6-10 the previous season, lost the starting QB in week 2, and were forced to start rookie Big Ben. They went 15-1 and lost in the conference championship.
The Steelers may have switched QBs, but they still had the same nasty D year after year. They were 13-3 in 2001 and 10-5-1 in 2002, so 2003 was an off year, not exactly the beginning of a rebuilding project.
Yeah, this game is just magnifying the same problems the Colts have had all year. Bad O-Line and bad secondary.
I do wonder what the narrative will be when the Colts win 2 or 3 fewer games next year, even if they are a better team.
Wow, that was great coverage on Boldin's touchdown, what an unbelievable catch! Is he playing the best game of his life, or what--that was incredible catch number three for him?
Proms have changed considerably since my day if this Subway commercial has any basis in fact,
Thanks for articulating my thought during that ad...
The 2004 draft was famous for the quarterbacks and the debate over them. Interestingly enough, Rivers, Eli, and Roethlisberger are all out of the playoffs this season. I think that's the first time it's happened since they joined the league.
But Schaub is in!
I want to find out who the assistant coach was that ran over to Pagano and begged him to challenge right before the snap and mail him a bag of farts. What a stupid challenge.
According to the commentator it's 4 down football, so "we need 4 downs here, don't take a sack".
Pollard getting a bit overzealous. Don't need a suspension for the next round. It didn't look like he lead with his helmet though, although the foul was justified because there was H2H contact.
Wow, Harbaugh says getting a personal foul call is selfish? I think Harbaugh has 3 unsportsmanlike conduct calls against him this year, I'm sure more than anyone else. That's the culture he's promoted.
> Don't need a suspension for the next round
Given his history, I couldn't disagree more strongly.
You probably follow the Ravens closer than I, what's your take on Pollard?
I don't know if he's generally a good player who I catch at his worst moments, or the dirtiest player in the AFC (a la old Rodney Harrison). The taunting penalty today was pretty dumb.
He's definitely been a good player in the Ravens scheme. Surprisingly good in coverage when healthy. Very tough hitter, who gets a lot of penalties. However, some of the penalties he got this year were more on reputation than actual substance. Sort of like Ryan Clark of the Steelers. If Pats fans are mad at him, I think the Brady penalty was flukey, and the Gronk tackle was perfectly legitimate.
As a follower of both teams--moved from MD to MA as a kid--who tore his hair out over the AFC championship last year, I honestly don't remember the hit on Gronk. Just everyone here being furious because it was Pollard who had the hit. And, naturally, because everyone loves Gronk in NE.
That's what I figured someone who actually watches Pollard play would have to say - maybe the reputation is just out of control at this point.
Wasn't the selfish comment in reference to the taunting? (not that Harbs isn't guilty of that as well). Pollard was starting to lose his stuff a bit, I just hope he's not suspended.
I'm curious about the details of that whole exchange. Was the Colts sideline guy talking smack (I assume his talking to that guy was the penalty)? If so, is that normal or totally out of the ordinary in most games? Either way it was stupid on Pollard's part, but it wasn't clear to me whether it was just kinda stupid or crazy weird stupid.
Nice that Ray Lewis gets to go out with a win. I feel bad for Colts fans and the unrealistic expectations they will have for this pretty poor team next year. Who knows though, maybe there will be more magic, seems unlikely though.
Playing a 2nd place schedule next year should make their schedule tougher as well.
The 2nd place AFC schedule is not too hard next year really, though the AFC South plays the rising NFC West. Also, the AFC West (huzzah!).
I could easily see the Colts signing a couple of free agents in their copious cap room (Levitre? Kruger?), getting a few serviceable pieces from the draft to improve their big holes (o-line, d-line and CB) and being in the mix for a wild card. I'm thinking somewhere between 7-9 and 9-7 is the most likely result, but who really knows?
Cincinnati and Miami are the 2 second place teams Indy will play. No danger there
I wouldn't say "pretty poor"...the defense was absolutely awful, yes, but Indy's special teams were adequate (finally!), and the offense was also middle-of-the-road, and that with a rookie QB, rookie RB, rookie TE, rookie #3 WR...and, of course, they get to have four games next year against JAX and TEN. With some work on the defense, there's room for them to improve and be firmly in the mix for the playoffs again.
The one thing the Colts have going for them is a ton of cap space next year, and not a whole lot contracts expiring (except for Freeney, whom no one around here thinks will be resigned).
If Grigson can have as much luck (no pun intended) in the draft and free agency as last year, the team could certainly compete for a playoff spot again next year, especially with the quality of their division.
I don't think there are any Colts fans who will "expect" any where near 11 wins unless they get some great FA finds. I think most Colt fans out there has been reasonable about this year, enjoying the unexpected success but knowing it had limits. We know that they grinded out/got lucky in many games this year. The roster is still very, very thin. The reason Ballard was exhausted in the fourth quarter is that there really isn't a single back besides him who is any good on the roster, especially when you take out Carter and Brown to injuries, and even they were not very good. As everyone saw today, the offensive line is very weak. Etc.
I hope that they are .500 or above, and my expectations will go up or down base on who they can get in FA with the cap money they will have.
Anybody know where you could find record for most play-off games played? Lewis has to be up there.
17 playoff games...tied for 136th.
Quick search, don't know if I made the query well at PFR:
Rk Player From To Tm W L T Count
103 Ray Lewis 2000 2011 BAL 10 7 0 17
That was pretty sweet.
Good thing we can see Ray play another game.
I don't know about that, only because Peyton might be undressing him for 4 quarters over the middle. It might not be pretty.
Looks like Kyle reads FO, big holes on the outside right side
Jeez it looks like they've already played 5 quarters on that field today. The grounds crew wasn't aware that they are still playing football in Washington?
I wonder if it's at all intentional? Seattle has the rep as a poor road team, and they've got a ton of speed.
I would think that Washington wouldn't want to minimize their speed though. But maybe they're just used to those conditions. I remember the Steelers used to keep their field in worst shape possible, but the league eventually stepped in and made them redo the surface. I think the tipping point was when Miami once punted the ball and it literally stuck right into the ground upon landing.
Ugh. Just play football, Pierre! I know you're fired up and everything, but arguing with a ref and calling for the challenge flag AND GETTING IT WRONG makes you look like an asshole. We need you focused for 3rd down.
My dad is laughing at #72's elaborate facemask. I guess LOOKING INTIMIDATING is an important part of the design.
So far RGIII (and more accurately Morris) and Redskin Home Cooking 1, DVOA 0.
If the Seahawks are really all that, regardless of no Twelfth Man present, they come back and win this game. If not, they were simply a staistical aberration with a huge home field advantage
I...think I want an Alfred Morris jersey.
This looks Washington Vintage 1987-- Hogs dominating line of scrimmage
This may be a Kirk Cousins game before long
Ummm.... Pete-- might want to rethink that 3rd and short red zone defense. That was embarrassing. This is the 5 best team in the last 22 years?? Really??
Sea is better Defensively off vs a Wide Open Passing Offense instead of a Run Oriented team. All of their Pass Rushers and Awesome CBs are semi neutralized playing vs Wash vs other teams.
How many WC teams on road have come back from 14-0 first quarter/first half deficits? Anyone know?? Maybe none.
Do we care?
Nobody's done it after being down 14 in the first quarter, but the 97 Vikings won after being down 16-0 in the first half and 19-3 at half-time. The 87 Redskins also won in Chicago after trailing 14-0 in the first half, but were a division winner rather than a true wild card team. The 72 Cowboys won after being down 18 (21-3) in the first half.
Let's see if SEA is a SF Clone: Awesome when ahead but can't play from behind
Miller's play to get the first down and Rice's catch may loom pretty large when this is all said and done. Very nice drive-- maybe a ballgame now even with just a FG, particularly given RGIII's condition.
Cousins will be in this game. RGIII cannot move.
I know Buck and Aikman are saying that Browner might be "rusty" after coming back from a PED suspension, but are there any other possible reasons why he might be less effective? Hmmm...
Best comment in this thread. Nothing is more bizarre to me than teams not having a PED clause in their contracts. Look at Merriman after he couldn't juice anymore, or Rashard Lewis in the NBA.
I don't think that is possible under the CBA.
RGIII's decreased mobility clearly an issue on that 3rd and short - was there for him if he could have taken off freely.
Troy Aikman: "I don't think Mike Shanahan would put his franchise at risk" by letting RGIII play through an injury. Um, he has before. Remember when Brian Griese played hurt for the Broncos--it was a Monday night game against the Raiders. He played an incredible, gutsy game and Denver won, but he hurt himself worse; he was never the same player again. PLEASE Mike don't do that again with Robert, yes it's the playoffs but it's a wild-card game. Get us a new right tackle and some help in the secondary and the team will be even better.
at risk for what? To win a super bowl in the future? This is the playoffs! You can win one now. This is the time to go all in and all out.
He owes it to Griffin and the franchise to not put him in crazy risk just win a playoff game. I'm sorry, but if RG3's career was ended today and it turns out he should not have been cleared to play, that'd be criminal idiocy on MS's part.
That said, I guess that's not the case.
Or maybe it is.
I'm not saying that playing Griffin (or Griese) was the right decision, but I'm not sure the cases are analagous. Griffin is a far better prospect than Griese ever was, and the Redskins have far more invested in him than the Broncos did in Griese. I don't think Griese qualifies as "the franchise" in context.
Another way to look at it is that RG3 realistically has a really limited shelf life anyway, so benching him this year so he can be fully healthy when he gets injured in week 3 of next year is kind of silly. A player like him is going to have to play hurt or not play much at all.
talk about getting the bounces. Tremendous fumble luck for Seattle.
they're in top 5 in NFL in "recovering goofy exchanges between QB and RB and turning them into double-digit gains" as well as every other category. :)
Wake up call accepted. This is the Seattle team everyone has been praising the past two months
Wrong word maybe, but if it was Twelfth Man calling collect, then I guess it works
Wilson looks so much better than Griffin at taking a hit. Madieu Williams got a nice pop on Wilson after that 12-yard run, but you didn't cringe watching him hit the ground. Griffin would all out of control sprawling around if he just lost his balance standing there.
Uh, that's probably because Rg3 is still gimpy from the Ravens game.
Wilson is making all the plays RGIII cannot.
I am personally terrified by the fact that the most feared name in sports (Dr. James Andrews) is on the sidelines wearing redskins gear. Perhaps RG3's MCL is a little more damaged than they were letting on.
I think for both the short term future-- the outcome of this game-- and long term future of the Redskin franchise-- Kirk Cousins needs to play the second half
Nice pick by Thomas. If the 'Hawks can go to half down 14-13 (or up 17-14), it'll be the 'Skins shaking their heads in the locker room.
Even as a Redskins fan I have to love how the Seahawks defense plays, Earl Thomas is like a miniature Ed Reed.
It was a great play by Thomas but I thought Browner was interfering with Garcon, he had his back to the ball and was preventing the receiver from going back for it. Garcon should have made more effort to force the refs to throw the flag though.
Reed Doughty has been having a career year. That awesome play against Dallas last week--the one where he dove low and took out both the lead blocker and the halfback like a bowling ball--by itself almost made up for having to watch him when he sucked for so many years.
The thing about Doughty other than his race was that he was always an average safety and good special teamer. I think we went through a period where everyone was looking for the next great super athletic saftey and people discounted the average guys by giving chances to potential. Of course it didnt help he often played with or spelled Sean Taylor in his early years who makes any other saftey look small and slow. (Greg Williams always maintained that ST was the most naturally gifted athlete he ever saw in football.)
Pierre Garcon has been insufferable at times, it's like DeAngelo Hall is rubbing off on him. Was he like this in Indianapolis? I don't recall him ever acting like a hothead before.
A lot of that is Browner and Sherman, Sherman will talk mad shit at the *slightest* provocation, and they both delight in beating up recievers.
In the case of Browner, I would not be surprised if he spends his off days at local schools beating little kids up for their lunch money. He is a straight bully. He's had plenty of instruction from the officials exactly where that personal foul line is an he seems to relish walking right up to that line and leaning over every chance he gets.
They seem like really nice guys off the field though.
He's been the official team doctor all year. The team didn't just call him in recently, if that's what you were thinking. IIRC he's simultaneously the official team doctor for three of four other teams as well.
I knoq he is the doctor for Alabama and Auburn. I guess it is highly possible that he is a skins fan from childhood considering much of the south gravitated to them.
Maybe he just likes going to football games. Seems like a pretty sweet gig to me.
Now that I think about, I'm guessing that the skills related to being an elite surgeon and those related to being an in-game trainer are quite different.
The music in the background when the kicker walked onto the field was "King Nothing" of Metallica.
"Careful what you wish, you may regret it. Careful what you wish, you just might get"
A bit ironic in a football game, or the guy only plays it when the opposing kicker is going to kick.
Well Griffin will tell us whether that fumble is a footnote or a fateful play. Skins get out of this spot, and who knows? 3 and out and Seattle will ram it right down their throats.
Obvious tripping call missed.
Anger is right. That was a bad no-call.
Can you elaborate, it looked like a trip to me.
It looked like a trip live, but on the replay it was his butt that got the tackle.
The defender did not make a move to put his leg in the way of the defender, he was just in the middle of falling. Morris just tripped over him from what I saw.
Goddammit DeAngelo stop arguing with the ref over a good call! I'm sorry you don't like it, but you did hold the guy, and you should know that.
I am so infuriated by Hall, still pissed that they overpayed him and let Carlos Rodgers go, even if Rodgers does have the worst hands in the NFL he was leaps and bounds better in coverage.
so you're infuriated by the front office?
The part that people wont talk about is how the mismatch in punt coverage and returns has left the skins with terrible starting position.
Seahawks have dominated two quarters yet still behind. Could be one of those days.
I understand why Griffin is in this game, but he absolutely ought not to be and they definitely ought not to be calling designed runs for him in this state. I'm wincing just watching him.
Wilson needs to learn to get rid of the ball sooner. That's at least 3 plays that lost yards because he waited too long to throw the ball away.
Okay, watching a limping RG3 gain 8 is kinda amazing.
Did Bryant just kick Morris in the head?
Wow. Here's where we get to find out if Griffin is really healthy enough to play or not.
Whoops. Turns out the answer was "no."
Ugh. #@&%ing Shanahan! This is purely speculation, but I have to wonder if Kyle ever said "I think we should go with Kirk" but Mike said no, we're sticking with Robert. Well, they could have given him 7 minutes to work with. Now he'll have significantly less.
Major whiff by D Hall gives up the TD.
"He's normally a great tackler"
Mr.Aikmen, as a skins fan I can assure you that because Hall is a better tackler than he once was does not make him 'excellent.
It worked for Seattle, but I still hate when good running teams go empty backfield needing two yards or less.
Far more justifiable when the QB's a genuine rushing threat.
And the Stupidest Thing Any Coach Ever Did sweepstakes may have a winner.
Legs, injured or not, are NOT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT!
He had a damaged knee and now he has a wrecked knee.
And now it's too late to take him out. That's been coming.
I hope it's nothing too serious, and that his offseason starts now.
That sucks for Redskins fans. It must be an interesting year in DC, though, after the Nationals get pilloried for sitting Strasburg in the playoffs for injury concerns, and then this happens.
If Daniel Snyder has any integrity-- and that is certainly open to question-- he needs to find a new head coach. That was criminal what Shanahan did today-- to his star player, his team, his franchise. Any fool could see by early in the 2nd Quarter that RGIII could not compete. So along with criminal it was also incredibly stupid and shortsighted, from both a short term and long term standpoint. I don't think Troy Aikman will be insinuating any more that Andrews wasn't telling the truth as he did in the first half.
I missed that. What did he say?
Buck brought up the Andrews story in the 2nd quarter. Made it pretty clear that Andrews denied being the person who OKed Griffin returning to the Dec 9 game after his injury. Pretty obvious conflict with what the head coach said at the time. At that point Aikman chimed in and said, in effect, "no way Shanahan risks RGIII in that situation"-- in other words, he must have had the doctor's OK. Postgame conference with Shanahan will be fascinating tonight.
You're trying to win this year also.
When you're in the playoffs, you don't think long term. Especially not as a coach.
Did they let him play too long? Yes, with 20/20 hindsight. But it's not like it's a rarity.
Accidents happen and they rolled the dice one time too much.
Well its true your trying to win this year, but if you do permanent damage to RGIII's knee that's not good. I don't know anything about knees, but look at Brandon Roy for the Trailblazers. He tried to gut it out during the playoffs when he was injured and his career is basically over today. Now basketball involves more high stress activities on the knee with all the jumping, but still, it is a concern.
If Griffin couldn't play effectively, they were going to lose this game anyway. If Griffin can't play again, they're going to lose a lot of games next year. That's a huge, stupid waste of your #1 draft pick.
You mean that it's a waste of three number one picks.
Why would you think RGIII would not be able to play next year?
Have we all already forgotten about Adrian Peterson? And that was from a worse knee injury than what RGIII has.
Having said that, a healthy Kirk Cousins is better than a limping RGIII who cannot plant his foot.
Not everyone is A.D.
let's not pretend we can say "oh it's just a wrecked knee... meh... 6 months and you're back."
Not every player heals that way, just like not every injury can be overcome like AD's was.
This seems way way over the top. They have a training staff for a reason. It certainly wasn't criminal, what is with you and the constant hyperbole?
As I said above, another way to look at it is that RG3 realistically has a really limited shelf life anyway, so benching him this year so he can be fully healthy when he gets injured in week 3 of next year is kind of silly. A player like him is going to have to play hurt or not play much at all.
You got this, Kirk! I know you're up to it.
Joe Buck unfamiliar with the idea of emergency QB.
Also, Redskins center keeps making bad snaps.
Yeah, Troy, he just needs to be able to catch it when someone dives into his knees before the ball gets there. Thanks for the insight.
Exactly. Obvious PI, got hit before the ball got there, but Aikman blames it on the receiver
hey Troy, you try to catch a ball when someone tackles you before the ball gets there. Airhead.
All the favorites won including the one road favorite. Would think spreads next week will be:
SF by 3
Denver by 8.5
New England by 10
Atlanta/Seattle maybe Pick 'em or falcons by 1.5
the spreads were already out yesterday (all possible matchups).
SF -3 over GB
NE -8.5 over HOU
DEN -8.5 over BAL
ATL -2.5 over SEA
OK-- only one I knew which was exactly where it should be was GB/SF. That Falcon line will move a lot-- could easily be Pick 'Em before the game.
it might move to PK but that wouldn't be a big move. The numbers between 0 and 2.5 are worth very little. So it wouldn't take a lot of money to move a line from 2.5 to PK.
I think Seattle should be favored in that game.
For all the critism of the Falcons defense, I think the their secondary has done a pretty good job of confusing some pretty good QBs, with the distance and the 10 am start, + potentially injured kicker, the Falcons should possibly be favored by more.
The Seahawks were significantly better than the Falcons this season.
As a lifelong Seahawks fan experience has often encouraged me to hedge my expectations.
Actual lines reflecting first round results are out.
SF -3 vs. Green Bay
NE -9 vs. Houston
DEN -7 vs. Baltimore
ATL -2 vs. Seattle
Interesting that the Denver and Atlanta odds narrowed after today's results.
the actual lines were already out. Books had them posted and you could bet on them (the bets only had action if the matchups happened).
Also, Denver is either an 8 or a 9 point favorite, depending on the book. No sportsbook is offering 7 even.
So, the Seahawks can win road playoff games against teams with godlike QBs in their rookie season (RG3, Marino).
Yes, especially when said rookie QB plays on one leg thanks to an idiot coach.
Fair enough. Marino played his whole career like he had one leg.
I lol'ed. I just meant RG3 was hurt, not Marino
Said QB isn't godlike without the ability to run either so I'm not sure I can call him godlike in the first place. RG3 was asked to do less than any of the other rookie QB and rely on his legs more than any of them, not sure how to evaluate him.
Very hard to fathom this comment.
RG3 passed for 3200 yards this year. Had 102.4 passer rating. 8.14 yards/attempt, which led the NFL.
And ran a scheme that required fewer reads, had the advantage of play action on almost every snap and had one of the best O-lines in the game in front of him. They also ran a more toned down offense than either of the other big rookies and he had an elite running game behind him unlike Luck. He was asked to throw into a lot fewer contested windows. RG3 was asked to do way less from a throwing QB aspect than Luck. RW had a toned down playbook to start the year as well but they opened it up later on in the year and he was running a much more complete offense by the end of the year than RG3. Take RG3's legs and/or scheme away and I think he is the weakest of the 3 at QB (for this season mind you). Football is a team sport and as much as we like to try you aren't going to be able to find a number that perfectly describes a player.
Shanahan (pick your favourite) is a dick.
Next weekend's most interesting story line: Can Seattle continue it's run or can Mike Smith avoid becoming his generation's Marty Schottenheimer.
Schottenheimer at least won a few playoff games. Smith hasn't won any as of yet. Marvin Lewis and Jim Mora would probably be better comparisons.
Jim Mora is the perfect doppelganger. Tons of regular season winds but no playoff wins.
Mike Smith is Helmut Kohl's doppelganger
Been a while since I've seen 19-13 and 24-14 blowouts.
And I miss "Let's go to Los Angeles for a game break" for a kuh-razy Jaguars-Chiefs flea flicker fumble return touchdown.
Any damned fool not named Shanahan could tell that RGIII's gimpy knee was having significant effect on his accuracy, along with making him ordinary when running. Lemme see.......the rookie qb my employer has invested millions in can't throw accurately, nor does he have his burst, due to injury, while the other qb I decided to use a fairly high pick on this year, who has won a game for me this year, is ready to go..........hmmmmmmmm.........EUREKA! I'll wait until the rookie my employer has risked millions, and huge draft value, on, is assisted from the field, after his thigh, knee and lower leg do a Lombard Street impersonation, before I replace him! Did I tell you I won two Super Bowls!!
Good grief, "stupid" does not begin to describe that fiasco.
Grady Little thought leaving him in was a good idea.
Now I see Shanahan said in the presser that RG3 argued for staying the game. What an unfiltered, weak-ass, chickensh*t Shanahan is. I always liked the Sparky Anderson approach to pulling the guy tossing the ball from the game. Sparky said that he instructed his hurlers that, what when he came to the mound, they were to hand him the ball, and "not say a go*da**ed word". For a guy getting paid millions, to coach a team, to ask a guy, who is just out of college, whether he can still go, after watching what we all watched on the field this afternoon, is pure abdication of duty. What a huge, gaping, southern orifice.
Yep. When your franchise QB is hurt so bad that he can't avoid a pass rush, there really isn't a decision to be made -- certainly not by the player. There's not much precedent for a star to beg out of the game and keep cred among his teammates. The whole Jay Cutler thing was what -- two years ago?
When did Grady Little start coaching the Redskins?
That's what Redskins fans want to know!
Ya know...Snyder is an idiot (okay, okay, an even bigger idiot) if he doesn't install some fast artifical surface at FedEx this offseason. If his franchise QB was some statue like Peyton Manning, then, yeah, leave the hog wallow to slow down the pass rush. But the future is a speed/quickness/shifty guy. And the crappy field may have had something to do with aggravating his injury.
I would blame Snyder as much as Shannahan. If I am the owner and my prized Rookie QB who I spent 3 1st Round Picks on is limping around the 1st 1/2 against an aggressive, physical defense, I am making sure he does not even see the field in the 2nd Half. Not only are they risking long term damage in a game they are likely to lose because their QB is now ineffective but also have little chance of winning 3 consecutive games all away from home against superior teams even if a miracle happens and they happen to hold on for the win.
There's no way Cousins would have won the game for them, despite his success against the Browns this year. RGIII was worth more as a decoy just handing off the ball.
After a bizarre first two drives, Seattle simply dominated this game.
Kind of hard to believe this considering Seattle needed that fumble to pull ahead. All Cousins had to do was drive them to a FG at some point and the Redskins have a really good shot at winning the game. When you spot a team 14 pts it is very easy to lose the game even if they don't have much of an offense.
The Griffin fumble? I mean with a bad snap like that, it's probably SEA ball even with a healthy QB.
nah, any QB would've been able to recover it. The ball was sitting there for about five seconds.
Griffin didn't recover it because he was laying there on the ground.
Any other QB and it's over 90% it's recovered by the offense.
Seattle dominated after the 2 drives because of the injury to Griffin. Without the ability to run for 1st down, not only was the read option all but eliminated but also all the open passing lanes that he needed to complete passes vs Sea's D. It was pretty obvious that a gimpy Griffin could not just drop back with no run threat and attack Sea's Def throwing the ball.
We'll never know what would have happened with Cousins, but considering that Wash scored 0 points after the 2nd Drive injury and that RG3 likely made his injury worse, it is hard to imagine Wsh would not have been better off.
How can a knee in a brace even bend like that? Why even wear a brace if your knee can bend like that in a solo-accident? It's not like he was rolled up on by a 300-pounder.
It was obvious that RG III couldn't play anymore, and I agree with most of what's been written here, as long as it doesn't start with "But it's a playoff game ..."
But the Redskins offense totally dies when Kory Lichtensteiger got hurt, and no one has mentioned that. Their running game without Griffin disappeared. No question that Cousins should have been playing sooner, and perhaps that would have changed the outcome, but the tide turned when the line inserted a rookie.
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