Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

25 Nov 2010

Week 12 Open Discussion Thread

Talk about all the Week 12 games here!

Posted by: Aaron Schatz on 25 Nov 2010

253 replies , Last at 29 Nov 2010, 10:09pm by DEW

1
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by PatsFan :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 2:00pm

I thought when the home team wears color the visitor has to wear white?

32
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:30pm
48
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Raiderjoe :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 6:41pm

Didnt click link becsussae on phone but will clicj later when by desktop comp. Maybe it says it in linl but rule is teams cav wear colored jerseys- both teams. Commissioner has yo allow it. Probably only allows it on spevial occasions becausee want twams wearing white jerseys a lot of time so fans can see ths and want to buy white jerswys. Colored jeresyes bigger sellers so league.want to makw sure white jerseys see lot of action ptherwise white jersey salss really would go in crapper

60
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Fri, 11/26/2010 - 2:27am

The important text:
Before July 1 of each season, the home team is required to inform the NFL their choice of their jersey color (white or color) for their home games of the upcoming season and the away team MUST wear the opposite.

61
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Fri, 11/26/2010 - 2:32am

You missed a bit:

For any game (Pre-regular-post season), the two teams MAY wear jerseys in their official colors (non-white). As long as the Commissioner OK’s that the colors sufficiently contrast.

The specific rule outweighs the general in this case.

63
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Otis Taylor89 :: Fri, 11/26/2010 - 9:51am

I didn't know Raiderjoe knew how to use a phone....

233
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 1:33am

So little faith...

2
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 2:02pm

I couldn't stop LMAO'ing at JB teary-eyed selling that Criminal chris henry story.

--------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

4
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 2:19pm

you're a real class act

6
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 2:33pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Henry_%28wide_receiver%29#Off-the-fie...

yup, that's me. oh wait, that's Chris Henry, who would be in jail if he weren't a millionaire athlete (and dead).

but celebrate him! in death his mom decided to make him an organ donor, even though he himself didn't.

*rolls eyes*

------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

8
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 2:52pm

When someone is down in a fight, you stop kicking.
When someone is dead, you stop kicking too.
There's no reason to continue.
On with football now please.

9
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by MurphyZero :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 2:54pm

You're right, but that doesn't mean you let people rewrite history either. He still did the things he did. Just because some good came of his death, doesn't mean we should honor his life.

11
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 3:09pm

True.

80
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by buzmeg :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 11:44am

Criminal or not, his organs saved the lives of others. The report was not about Chris Henry and it was quite moving.

--
buzmeg

98
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:24pm

it wasn't about him? then why did they feature his picture and story? why was it on a CBS NFL pregame?
why was JB crying?
etc

---------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

133
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by billsfan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:31pm

Point of order: it should be L'ingMAO, not LMAOing, unless you were "laugh [your] ass offing."

(I also like the Eagles)

3
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 2:18pm

late whistle there refs, on the helmetless carrier

so much for safety.

-------------------

Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

10
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Gus (not verified) :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 3:02pm

As long as it gives Danny Woodhead a chance to be concussed, I'm okay with it.

12
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by B :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 3:27pm

Stay classy.

46
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Gus (not verified) :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 6:10pm

Said totally facetiously. Woodhead's a nice receiver out of the backfield and he's been a plus. I don't actually want him hurt. But ye gawds, the fanboyism around here (boston suburb) for him is obnoxiously high. *sigh*

5
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 2:27pm

Simms was talking about running the ball early to open op the passing game. Isn't that cute.
Lions are pretty good.

7
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by lefty :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 2:38pm

I thought the Patriots were supposed to be some kind of dominant offensive juggernaut, the likes of which we've (almost) never seen before.

Yeah, I understand Brady is playing hurt, but... the Lions? Really?

13
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 3:34pm

Newsflash: these are not your 2008 Detroit Lions.

19
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by JonFrum (not verified) :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:04pm

They lead the league in scoring. What exactly is it you want?

24
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:16pm

you were saying?

25
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by JonFrum (not verified) :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:19pm

Six minutes left, 38 points. You were saying?

Like the talk radio Nimrods, they never come back.

44
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by lefty :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 6:04pm

I'm sorry an anonymous comment made on the internet made you feel so insecure that you had to resort to childish insults.

Yes, the Patriots looked great in the second half. Doesn't change that they played horrendously for the first 25 minutes or so.

49
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Gus (not verified) :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 6:43pm

I don't think they played horrendously. I was quite impressed with the Lions overall in the first half. :)

51
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by JonFrum (not verified) :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 7:37pm

The Patriots played horrendously? Really? Some how, Brady came out of the game with a perfect QB rating. No turnovers. By horrendous, you must mean 'not their usual best in the league.'

This is no doubt the same guy who whined that the Patriots were running up the scores in 2007.

28
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Judy (not verified) :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:22pm

They only get to play against their own defense in practice, the other offenses get to do it in games that count.

14
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 3:44pm

Clowned alert: #27 Lions.

-------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

17
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 3:59pm

He got his turkey served.
(about 4 times now this game)

15
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by RedZone :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 3:49pm

Does anyone have an idea of what percentage of kickoff/punt returns run out of
the end zone get past the 20 yard line? Thanks.

16
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 3:51pm

Wow. I knew the Patriots defence wasn't good, but they are getting shredded.

18
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by MurphyZero :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 3:59pm

At what point does the coach sit down #27 for the Lions? Or provide safety help every down?

20
Bizarre OPI
by PatsFan :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:09pm

How can you call OPI (or any PI) when the QB still has the ball in his hand at the time of the contact??

21
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:10pm

Why don't the Johnsons on the Lions team wear first name initials? Isn't there a rule for that?
I remember Andre and Andra Davis wear the whole name on the Browns teams.

23
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:13pm

I believe there was a "Je. Lewis" on the championship Ravens as well.

35
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:34pm

That would be Jermaine Lewis, returner extroadinaire!

31
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by MurphyZero :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:28pm

There was a rule change either this year or last that addressed same last names. Because the numbers have to be unique, they made the rule that only the last name will be on the jersey. The jersey number will serve to differentiate the different players.

33
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:32pm

There used to be a rule, but they got rid of it when the Patriots acquired Kyle Brady. I guess the league didn't want the "other" Mr. Brady to suffer the indignity of having a first initial on the back of his jersey.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by gratif1 (not verified) :: Sat, 11/27/2010 - 7:59am

Haha, that's fantastic.

77
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Eddo :: Sat, 11/27/2010 - 3:29pm

I don't believe the rule was changed for the Patriots. Currently, it's optional for teams to include the first initial. The Bears have two Moores, and I don't believe either has a first initial on their jersey.

81
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 12:06pm

I didn't mean that the new rule applies only to the Patriots; I meant that their Brady Bunch situation is what (probably) prompted the change.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=lukas/081017&sportCat=nf...

235
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Jerry :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 5:12am

There was never a rule. The Steelers added names in 1970, and have never had an initial.

246
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 12:59pm

Since Paul Lukas's knowledge of uni-related info may be unmatched by anyone who doesn't work as an equipment manager, I tend to assume that he's right. So, I took a look at a Steelers' game from 1995, when both John L. Williams and Willie Williams were on the roster. And ... you were right! No initials. So I wonder if it's always been optional, if the Steelers had some sort of exception, or if they just ignored it?

22
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:12pm

So, apparantly Jeff Backus can hold on every play, but the Patriots aren't allowed to.

27
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by JonFrum (not verified) :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:21pm

Quit yer whinin' about holding - it's embarrassing.

26
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by B :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:20pm

I wonder if Zoltan can do kickoffs.

38
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:40pm

Zoltan can.

29
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:25pm

game over

30
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:27pm

Whats that, 9 picks in 3 games now?

34
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:33pm

darth hoodie should onside kick.

------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

36
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:38pm

The only reason I can see to not onside kick there is you want your D to get some more practice.

37
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:40pm

I mean it was 10 yards of risk. At least do the "surprise" onside and just rocket it right at an upman.

--------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

73
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by gratif1 (not verified) :: Sat, 11/27/2010 - 8:00am

Yeah I thought it was outrages not to onside it there. I expected more commentary on this here!

74
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Sat, 11/27/2010 - 12:19pm

If it had been a close game, I think he would have. With the score as it was, it would have been unnecessary. Making the Lions drive farther (more time off the clock if they score) and not getting anybody hurt on the play are both higher priorities at that point.

75
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Karma Coma :: Sat, 11/27/2010 - 3:09pm

What i don't understand, and i hope someone can explain to me, why wouldn't New England send the kickoff out of bounds at the 1-10 yard line intentionally? the rule says "When a kickoff goes out of bounds between the goal lines without being touched by the receiving team, the ball belongs to the receivers 30 yards from the spot of the kick or at the out-of-bounds spot unless the ball went out-of-bounds the first time an onside kick was attempted." Just as in the NE-Baltimore game in 2007 when Bart Scott picked up 2 15-yard penalties that were both enforced on the kickoff, if NE kicks the ball out of bounds from the Detroit 40, shouldn't that mean it is Detroit's ball at their own 10-yard line?

76
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Sat, 11/27/2010 - 3:29pm

I believe the farthest back it can be spotted following the kickoff-out-of-bounds penalty is the 40 yard line. Ie. It's either the receiving team's 40 yard line, 30 yards from the spot of the kick, or where the ball went out, whichever is closer to the kicking team's goal line.

78
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Karma Coma :: Sat, 11/27/2010 - 7:12pm

That was my thinking too, but i can't find it written that way anywhere. Is that your assumption or do you have a citation? It's something that occurs so infrequently it doesn't matter much. Although, i think that same weekend in 2007 there was a Dallas kickoff that went out of bounds after they had been penalized for excessive celebration and kicked off from their own 15-rad line. Their opponent took the ball at the Dallas 45. So it seems to me that the penalty is enforced as written - 30 yards from the kickoff spot, wherever that may be.

237
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 5:36am

Citing a source is going to be tough, considering that the actual NFL rulebook is secret... the guy you're replying to was correct though.

39
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 4:49pm

wow. this song... wow.

40
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 5:10pm

Happy Thanksgiving to all you fellow statheads and pigskin-philes!

41
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 5:25pm

...and it's Mike Tanier's birthday too.

50
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Raiderjoe :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 6:48pm

Oh wow . Playong pin tail on donkey going to be real dangerous in Tanier householf with ppeple all loopy on wine ans trytopahn.

42
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 5:25pm

as per his column of last week...

43
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by BucNasty :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 5:56pm

Had he planted a foot out of bounds and fielded it, I'm pretty sure he could secured the penalty on that kickoff.

238
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 5:38am

correct

241
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by billsfan :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 9:22am

That rule always bothered me, since it's a player intentionally going out of bounds prior to touching the ball. On any other play, that's a penalty. I guess it's foolish of me to expect the NFL rules to be consistent.

(I also like the Eagles)

45
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 6:05pm

what a disgrace having to challenge that.

fark booger..

--------------------------

Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

47
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 6:35pm

aikman just got run to win vs win to run right.

52
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by B :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 9:04pm

59 yard field goal attempt or rely on Kitna to convert on 4th and 10? I don't know if it was the wrong call. It's between a rock and a hard place there.

53
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 9:10pm

Sometimes you've just got to say 'great game'. That was a great game of football.

54
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by matt millen's brain (not verified) :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 9:13pm

I know this might betray gross ignorance of the rule book, but why was the McBriar punt from the 35 where he dropped the ball and kicked it not considered a missed drop kick FG attempt?

55
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by B :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 9:18pm

McBriar never had possession of the ball. Basically what happened is it was a fumbled handoff, and then McBriar kicked the ball. You're not allowed to do that.

56
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 10:19pm

apparently "major" facemasks are now distinguished again.

wtf

------------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

57
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 11:34pm

I can't stand the Jets, but that roughing the passer call on the 4th and 3 was absurd. Perfect tackling form by the Jets defender, no malice whatsover, facemask into Palmer's chest and arms wrapping up, ends in a roughing call and first down. Horrible.

58
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 11:35pm

Justice done when the Bengals miss the field goal at the end of the drive.

59
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 11/25/2010 - 11:47pm

Followed immediately by an absurd sequence of events as the Jets go three-and-out, the punt then bounces somewhere in the region of the Bengals' Caldwell, all the Bengals stay out of its way, and the Jets recover for a first down. One play later, touchdown Holmes.

Looks like the Jets' luck isn't changing any time soon.

62
Strange Calls
by Sancho Gaucho (not verified) :: Fri, 11/26/2010 - 9:25am

I know the coaches are the specialists, and I am just a curious soccer-minded Brazilian, but there are some calls that put me in owe: I simply cannot understand their logic whatsoever.

Two examples of yesterday's NO@DAL game: one seemed too conservative; the other, too progressive. Both were in the same drive.

--

Play I (the conservative)

2nd Qtr - NO Ball: 1'33", 3rd/1, DAL 47. Incomplete pass. There is an offensive holding penalty. DAL do not decline. Next play, 3rd/11, complete pass. Ball on DAL 29, 1st down.

I ask: If you are down 17-3, late in the 2nd qtr, why not decline the penalty and force NO to decide whether go for it or punt on a 4th/1? After all, your goal is get the ball as soon as possible. Why give your opponent two plays to kill the clock and get another first down?

Play II (the progressive)

2nd Qtr - NO Ball: 0'53", 3rd/8, DAL 27. Brees throws almost in the end zone, but the pass is incomplete. Next play, NO kicks a FG and scores: 20-3.

I ask: Why not run and force DAL to call a time out?

--

It seems to me that both decisions allowed the opponent to score 3 points before halftime. And the game finished 30-27! What am I missing?

64
Re: Strange Calls
by jtduffin :: Fri, 11/26/2010 - 1:40pm

For Play I, I am not sure why Dallas accepted the penalty for 3rd & 11 instead of putting N.O. on 4th & 1. It is possible that their staff has some kind of "expected value" table that told them it was the "correct" move, though.

For Play II, I didn't watch much of this game, but if I'm reading the play-by-play correctly, New Orleans was at 4th & 8 at the Dallas 27 yard line, with 0:47 left in the half. My understanding of the clock-stoppage rules is that, if they had called a running play instead of the field goal, the clock would still have stopped on the change of possession (i.e. as soon as the runner was down). So the additional time run off the clock is pretty minimal in that case, compared to making a FG attempt. If it were not 4th down, you'd be right that N.O. would usually want to run to take more time off the clock. (In fact, if your question was about the play N.O. called on 3rd down, I would agree that it would make sense to run instead of pass there. Now that I reread your post, that is probably what you meant, so what I just wrote is most likely extraneous information. :-)

On the 3rd-down call, I would guess that N.O. might have chosen to pass because their passing offense is typically quite a bit more successful than their running offense this season - particularly in that game, where from what I saw, they were completing passes pretty easily most of the time. It'd also be pretty tough for them to convert 3rd & 8 by running, where they'd have a decent chance (in my amateur opinion :-) of converting 3rd & 8 with a pass.

65
Re: Strange Calls
by Erik A (not verified) :: Fri, 11/26/2010 - 1:58pm

On point #1, I think pushing NO 10 yards further back (and presumably stopping them) would make their field goal a little tougher (since Hartley isn't having a stellar year).

On #2, I agree. NO should have run the ball, ran some time off the clock and gotten the field goal. Presumably they were trying for the TD in order to bury Dallas.

66
Re: Strange Calls
by RickD :: Fri, 11/26/2010 - 2:20pm

FWIW, outside politics "progressive" isn't the opposite of "conservative". "Risky" would probably be a better word choice.

69
Re: Strange Calls
by Andrew Potter :: Fri, 11/26/2010 - 3:51pm

Aggressive.

71
Re: Strange Calls
by Sancho Gaucho (not verified) :: Fri, 11/26/2010 - 6:37pm

I have written "risky" but changed it. Agressive is good though.

Thanks everybody for the answers.

P.S.: And I've misspelled "awe"...

67
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Fri, 11/26/2010 - 2:58pm

We have a winner:
"Jordan Shipley is a receiver like Wes Welker, like Brandon Stokeley."

68
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Fri, 11/26/2010 - 3:48pm

Yeah, I groaned when I heard that too. Apart from that, last night's commentary team wasn't too bad from the portions I paid attention to.

70
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Fri, 11/26/2010 - 4:18pm

nah I watched the rerun just now. I was alright... but that was hilarious, because he made a few plays in a short time and was waiting for it.
And, lo and behold... there it was.
Hilarious.

79
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Rikki (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 11:16am

As a Packers fan, I have one thing on my mind for tonight...

Would a Bears win help our Super Bowl probability more than an Eagles win? My thinking is that a Bears win would increase the Packers' chances of a bye, even though it would hurt the (good) chances of winning the division. I guess all things considered an Eagles win would still be slightly better, though.

82
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by JakeG (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 12:51pm

Probably irrational, but my rooting interest will likely depend on what happens in the Packer game. If the Packers win, I'd like to see the Eagles go down to give the Packers a better chance to secure home field. Packers lose, I would like to see the Bears fall back into a tie.

83
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Eddo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 2:08pm

I'm a Bears fan, which is immaterial, and I think this is some pretty good logic. The Packers are the better team, but they really can't afford dropping a full game behind the Bears, especially because the Bears have the tiebreaker at the moment.

84
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 2:20pm

3rd and 3 for packers. Rodgers gets outside pressure but steps up and has no one in his way for an easy first down. Just before the yellow line (which of course he can't see) he goes into a slide with Falcons closing on him. Had he not slid it was an easy first down. As it was, it looked real close, but not close enough for McCarthy to challenge apparently. They punt.

85
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 2:22pm

Aaron Rodgers should have dove head first for that first down. He would have gotten it easily. Maybe he was thinking of Eli Manning's fumble last week when he didn't go down feet first.

86
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 2:38pm

1) The Vikings are FINALLY riding Peterson into the end zone.
2) The Jags just ran what looked to be a little bootleg option that Garrard decided to keep, nifty play.

87
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 2:40pm

As I type that Peterson rips off 15 yards on 2nd and 14 over the left side. I'm not even a Vikings fan but FINALLY. Back to basics.

92
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Shattenjager :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 3:30pm

Adrian Peterson limping off the field. No word so far.

UPDATE: Coming back from halftime, his return is apparently questionable. He has an ankle injury.

88
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 2:55pm

Rodgers fumbles into end zone, may be hurt.

89
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by hughesm12 :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 3:09pm

should green bay cover tony gonzalez in the future?

91
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 3:24pm

How does Tony Gonzales get that open. From inside the 10, every packer in the end zone and there he is, all alone, no one within 3 yards of him, just standing there facing his QB for an easy pitch and catch.

90
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 3:23pm

All the announcers (and halftime crew) praise Atlanta for quickly running a play when Gonzales had "caught" a 4th down pass. It was indeed a huge play, and yes it would have been overturned.

But while Atlanta did line up quickly, Ryan then surveyed the field for a few seconds, then sent a receiver in motion and waited for him to complete his motion before the ball was snapped.

If this really was one of those critical do it now fast before they can challenge they wasted a lot of time before the snap.

The deciding factor was more CBS not showing the definitive replay until after the game. If anything I guess you can credit Atlanta lining up quickly because it forced the cameras to show that rather than a replay. Are coaches at the mercy of what is shown on tv?

236
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Jerry :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 5:21am

They're at the mercy of the video board at the stadium (which won't show a replay that would help the visiting coach decide) and the network broadcast, which should be on in the coaches' booth.

93
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:04pm

Harrison was just penalized for making a form tackle on a quarterback. Illegally chest-to-chest contact, apparently. As an immediate results, the Bills get 7 unearned points. These referees need not to be invited back to officiate another game.

94
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:10pm

Happened last week too.
Harrison is only allowed to say 'boo' and hope the QB sits down.

100
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:25pm

All hail Roger Goodell's 2010 Pussyball !

------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

101
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:27pm

The best part is now thanks to this terrible call he will be suspended next week for the Ravens game.

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

95
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by PaulTwo (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:13pm

I wouldn't call it a form tackle. A form tackle is shoulder to waist. The hit was more shoulder and forearm to chest. It was still a completely legal hit though.

96
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Smurfy (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:17pm

It wasn't exactly a form tackle as you claim. A form tackle is when the defender drives his shoulder into the waist. The hit was Harrison's shoulder and forearm to Fitzpatrick's chest. That's still a legal hit, though.

104
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:35pm

ehh... well that's eery.

105
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:35pm

Fair enough on the form tackle bit. And in retrospect it's not exactly fair to judge the officiating based on what happened after the bad call.

The flag itself was still crazy, though.

97
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by PaulTwo (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:20pm

It wasn't exactly a form tackle as you claim. A form tackle is when the defender drives his shoulder into the waist. The hit was Harrison's shoulder and forearm to Fitzpatrick's chest. That's still a legal hit, though.

99
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by PaulTwo (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:25pm

Sorry about the multiple post there everyone. It didn't show as posting for me. If it's not clear, I was smurfy as well. I tried changing the fields to see if it would go through. Apparently it was already going through without me realizing it.

Again, sorry.

102
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:28pm

All time "He just wins, therefore he can't be questioned" (FO regular speak) coaching great Mike Tardlin and his lackeys are getting their asses spanked by the juggernaut Bills who have made some great 2nd half adjustments .

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

103
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:34pm

This from a strange and wacky world where "getting their asses spanked by the juggernaut" means tied at 13, with the ball, on the road.

107
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:38pm

If "getting their asses spanked by the juggernaut" refers solely to the third quarter (as I say this the fourth quarter is young) which is how I understand the comment, then it's not an unreasonable assessment.

110
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:41pm

Remember when the Steelers were like 110-1-1 or something like that with a 10 point second half lead and you never had to sweat these games out? They had a killer instinct and a good game plan and made counter adjustments.

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

113
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:46pm

Yes, I remember that. And Cowher was a great coach. I think Tomlin's pretty good, too. But very few will compare favorable with Cowher. I also think Bettis deserves some credit.

106
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:38pm

I don't think he's that good either (as a steelers fan) but he's not bad and surely doesn't deserve to be fired.

108
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:38pm

how was that NOT a blow to the head against the bills on that sack of Roethlisberger ?

he forearm shivered him on the ground while he was wrapped up by another guy?

NFL ref hypocrite bullshit.

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

139
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by billsfan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:37pm

I think "Sack of Roethlisberger" just became my new favorite G-rated expletive.

(I also like the Eagles)

109
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:40pm

Jordy Nelson is good.
Atlanta decided to give aaron rodgers all the time he wanted - with the receivers all the time to get open.
Step 1: give an offense in the redzone all the time to find someone open.
Step 2: ?
Step 3: profit!

111
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:42pm

Step 2 could be: "let them score quickly so we can get into FG range and win"...

112
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:44pm

Adrian Peterson has not returned since his early injury.

Gerheart took awhile to get going, but now has 20 carries and is running hard.

115
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Pilkington (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:51pm

Gerhart has 76 yards, but his long is 6 yards. Don't see that every day.

114
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:49pm

and with a critical 3rd and 8, the Vikings pick up the first down with.... a 10 yard run by Favre? That gets the first, two minutes left, redskins burned all timeouts prior to that. They can kneel from here for the win.

116
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:52pm

Bills poised to take 20-16 lead with 4:00 to go after trailing 13-0 at half.

Disgraceful, Steelers.

-----------------------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

117
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:54pm

Sick freak play by Polamalu after Johnson bats a pass in the air saves the day

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

119
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:58pm

Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances.

By which of course I mean that I wouldn't celebrate too soon with over 2 minutes left to play.

121
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:03pm

You're right, the OL killed it again.

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

118
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Pilkington (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:55pm

With two minutes left, the Titans trail 20-0 and have 113 yards from scrimmage. Should've made sure you had a backup QB, Fisher.

124
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:10pm

I don't know whether you would consider Young or Collins the "regular" starter, but the non-starter of those two is certainly better than most backups. They don't have much for a 3rd QB, but that makes them pretty much exactly like every other team in the league.

120
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Home field ref (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 4:59pm

Giants don't win if Umenyoira doen't headbutt Garrard (uncalled). The last 2 series looked like Garrard was out of sorts.

We'll see 2 things this week: 1. if the NFL is serious about head-to-head contact and fines Osi, and 2. if Garrard has to miss another game w/ concussion. If Garrard is out, bye-bye Jags.

242
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Mark S. (not verified) :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 11:22am

I don't think Osi will be fined since it didn't seem malicious (it almost looked to me like he was falling forward as he got around the blocker and hit Garrard), but yeah it probably have been called on the field.

FWIW though, I don't think that play was what shook up Garrard - it was the first 2 consecutive sacks on the final drive. His comments after the game indicated he had a swollen wrist and possibly bruised ribs, not concussion symptoms.

122
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:07pm

how can they review it when there was a spike?
Or did they stop play before the spike?
He's down anyway, but the announcers seem to miss the fact that there was a plan ran already.

123
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by bengt (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:08pm

'Prior to the snap,...', said the ref.

125
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by BucNasty :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:10pm

I think I fell asleep during Mike Smith's victory speech.

126
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:12pm

Steelers are one shitty team.

------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

234
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Jerry :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 5:10am

Maybe you should switch your Pittsburgh allegiance to baseball.

239
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 5:46am

No, the Steelers are one of the best teams in the NFL. You just have wildly unrealistic expectations.

127
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:15pm

The Steelers lost the coin toss! ROTFLMAO Tomlin sux!!!!!!

131
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:29pm

Your idiocy aside, who else with "winning coaching record" has lost to so many bottom dwelling (DVOA, or real W/L) teams the last few years ?

BUF
-18.4%

PIT
34.2

why is this game in OT .

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

134
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Bill Barnwell :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:32pm

Call someone an idiot -- or another epithet of your choosing -- again and you're going to be banned.

138
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:37pm

Warning noted, I will simply ask that you just enforce it both ways please. I get called names left and right here long before initiating any attacks.

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

142
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:42pm

Is this the new "2 strikes, you're out" policy?
Just asking.

128
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:25pm

Is there anything more gripping than watching other people watch television? I love the CBS postgame show.

129
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:27pm

lol
drop the ball dude

130
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:28pm

This week in Danish announcers are idiots: They blame the Vick-to-Celek overthrow from a clean pocket on Celek. Because "he was slow to get open".

132
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:29pm

The Steelers clearly recover a fumble off of a punt return. Replay proves it. And the Bills are awarded possession because one of their players digs it out of the scrum after play has ended. That happens a lot in the NFL. Fixing handling of those scrums should be a priority. There is way too much dangerous and meaningless fighting after the play is dead by rule.

136
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:33pm

Edit. On replay I remove the word clearly. The Steelers still did recover, but "clearly" is an overstatement.

137
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:35pm

I didn't think they 'clearly' recovered it. Replay shows Florence got it. No idea how to solve that problem though with all those bodies flying around.

145
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:46pm

I think you "solve" it probabilistically. The scrum is clearly extra-legal. The play is dead and the fighting is just superfluous. Possession is awarded to the player coming away with it because the officials aren't sure who got it, and the player coming away with it "probably" got possession. Instead, they could kill the play quicker, ignore the scrum, confer, and if needed use replay to determine who probably got possession. I expect you would have a higher rate of choosing correctly and it would certainly be safer for the players.

148
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:51pm

Implant chips in the ball , the ground, and in each players hands, elbows, and knees.

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

150
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:58pm

even if it would, would the fighting be less? No.
The less clear it is, the more fighting there will be. So I don't see the problem really.

135
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:32pm

If rice dropped 5 a game, he would end up with 503 yards in his career.

139
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:37pm

On ESPN America here in Europe I was watching the Packers - Falcons game. Then they switched to the Giants kneeldowns.
Now they're showing the Steelers - Bills.
The Bills have changed something last few games, no idea what, but it's working for them.
Overime and the Steelers need everything they have to pull out a win.

141
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:41pm

Tough run by Redman might have just eeked out the win.

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

143
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:46pm

The Bears aren't who we thought they are?

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

144
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:46pm

Punt block for TD by the Seahawks.
Rarities and oddities could keep this game interesting.

146
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Pilkington (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:47pm

The Bears have brought their big-play game today - Cutler to Knox makes it 14-3.

147
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Crus :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:49pm

It helps they're picking on Joselio "Toastolio" Hanson, who appears to have banana skins on his feet currently.

149
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:57pm

And Cundiff hits touchback number 30. He's now got over 10 times last year's number. Absolutely insane.

152
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:00pm

It's simply nuts - I'd like to know what he's done differently, this is not just variance.

Comeback player of the year.

153
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:03pm

I'd like the same; it'd be one thing if this were early in his career, but this is his 8th season (as I recall). Previously, I would have said such a transformation is impossible. I'm having trouble coming up with a decent analogue for such a performance adjustment.

154
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:08pm

Right, this is Atlanta-Vick to Philly-Vick stuff.

Seriously I've no idea. Has he been playing in really strong winds this year? That could explain some of it...

161
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:19pm

Not notably so, at least not that I can think of. He's been doing it in all stadiums and mostly decent weather. They had one particularly windy day a few weeks back in M&T, but he actually did fine against that as well. Seriously, I just can't think of anything to explain it. Maybe a robotic leg replacement? Trick gunpowder-rigged tees?

164
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:30pm

Ignoring the obvious "steroid" type comments, perhaps he did something like serious golfers do and went to a launch monitor ?

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

167
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:37pm

That (and roids, although you can hardly expect that for a kicker, I would think) is my only guess, but I'm still astounded that such a modification could result in the changes we've seen between his old stats and this year.

You could also probably say that playing a full season makes a difference; this is his first full year since 2002 with (as I recall) the Cowboys. Still, adding almost 10 yards per kick and a simply insane increase in touchbacks seems unlikely, regardless of how much training he went through.

151
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 5:59pm

Bears might try actually covering Maclin in the redzone.... with someone other than Tinoisamoa

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

155
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:10pm

The Philly offense is slowly waking up. This feels like a game, that will get out of hand for the Bears.

156
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by TimK :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:13pm

Broncos radio crew just describe Danny Amendola as a 'Wes Welker type receiver' shortly after saying how fast he is...

Broncos defense can't cover or pass rush on 3rd&long, going to be a high scoring game.

157
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:14pm

Wauw. The Eagles elected not to block Julius Peppers in the redzone - sack for like minus 15 yards.

158
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:16pm

Lucky it wasn't a fumble6, although seeing vick try to get off the ground spotting 10-15 yards of "time" and try to catch and tackle peppers would have been fun.

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

160
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:18pm

Mike Martz sees your mistake, and raises you a unblocked Mike Patterson.

next play: fourth sack of the game for the Eagles.

159
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:18pm

Cutler 4 sacks, on pace for a 10 sack game?...

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

162
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:27pm

And we have a Sabby Piscatelli (sp?) sighting in place of the injured Grimm for the Bucs! Far be it from be to cheer for an injury, but damn, Flacco should be stoked to see that cardboard cutout in the secondary.

163
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:30pm

Sure enough, two plays later Flacco hits Todd Heap for 65 yards on broken coverage. Maybe a coincidence, as I didn't see what Sabby was doing, but it certainly seems convenient.

For what it's worth, announcers seem to agree, but also weren't paying attention to who should've been there.

165
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:31pm

Vick with his first pick since his reincarnation. An ugly one at that.

Cutler-esque.

190
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Tampa Bay Mike (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:52pm

Why was it ugly? Just a tipped ball, it happens.

226
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Semigruntled Eagles fan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 12:02am

Actually, the defender who intercepted the pass would probably have had a decent shot at intercepting the pass even if it hadn't been tipped, and I'm pretty sure there was triple coverage on the intended receiver. So while the ball was tipped, it didn't seem like a very wise decision (then again, the Brent Celek touchdown seemed like a risky decision at first glance, until they showed the replay demonstrating what Vick saw).

Aside from the obvious issues on defense (how many times did a defensive back slip in coverage? I lost track...), red zone struggles killed the Eagles this game. They advanced into a "first and goal" situation on five drives, and came away with 16 points in them.

166
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Pilkington (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:32pm

Another big play for the Bears, thanks to some atrocious tackling by the Eagles.

168
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:39pm

Wow, Hasselbeck has weak arm if he can't get the ball in there for that possible TD.

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

169
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:47pm

Wow did you see Andre Johnson beat the crap out of ... was it Finnagan?
Didn't know he did offseason programs with the MMA guys.

170
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:50pm

It was indeed. I know both players were ejected; anyone hear word yet on additional punishments? An AJ suspension would do serious damage to Houston's already dwindling chances.

171
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:51pm

No one messes with Andre.

178
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by billsfan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:17pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vhLwEj1ZtI

Finnegan appeared to start by jamming Johnson in the face.

Anyway, *this* is what a sports fight looks like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=985bd9nTDGA

(I also like the Eagles)

172
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 6:55pm

Fire reported last night in the Jacksonville Budweiser plant. Suspects reportedly include everyone who has ever had a Budweiser.

174
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:06pm

I've been to Jacksonville for vacation, very nice city. And some the people we met were the friendliest you could imagine... but they had Coors light.
Not to insult anyone, when they asked "do you like it" I said "sure, different from the European beerst, but it's cool".
But it was like asking "do you like sex in a canoe?" then I could answer "it's f#cking close to water".
Going to a bar, I'd have to specifically say I don't want a light beer.
Then driving around, I noticed beers even marketed with 'low calories'. As if a beer drinker cares.

Weird country.

175
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:09pm

Here on the west coast, it seems like the majority of our beer commercials are marketed based on caloric content. Miller, I think, has a huge campaign right now trying to undercut Michelob Ultra's monopoly on the "low-calorie" beer market.

177
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:14pm

I ended up with Sam Adams and Blue Moon, but Blue Moon couldn't beat the German white beers, but still was pretty good.

179
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:18pm

Blue Moon is definitely one of the better widely-distributed examples of a white beer in the US. Depending on the Sam Adams, you can get some good selections out of them. Lucky to find it on tap in certain regions, though.

180
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by billsfan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:20pm

Blue Moon is probably the best beer that MillerCoors makes...

(I also like the Eagles)

182
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:32pm

Yeah it was a good call from my friends, it was a white beer not a 'lager' or 'pilsener' beer.
Being it eh... 82 degrees anyway, that's a good temp to drink white beer.
But do they also make normal beer?
.
If you ever end up in Germany or it's surroundings, don't forget to check out the german hefe weiss beer.

183
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:35pm

Blue Moon label had a seasonal pumpkin ale out around Halloween out here; other than that, I can't think of anything else I've seen under them. The pumpkin ale tasted like blue moon with a bit more malt and a *very* light hint of pumpkin; not the best one I've ever found.

184
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:38pm

Beer + flavours = no no.

186
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:43pm

But coriander and orange (flavorings used in Blue Moon, and most witbier's I've made as well, to be honest) are OK? :)

187
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:45pm

witbier is dutch... tell me about it, we're not that good at witbier.

But no, I'm not a fan of flavoured beers.

189
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:51pm

In my experience, mostly similar to Blue Moon. I'm not entirely sure if the flavoring is traditional or simply a substitution for the flavors that should be produced from a yeast that's difficult to find outside of its native environment.

Regardless, I've never been a huge fan of them, but in small amounts, I can appreciate the variety. However, I draw the line at putting chili peppers in the bottle, which I've also seen!

193
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by billsfan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:01pm

Not a fan of Founder's Breakfast Stout, or anything by Dogfish Head?

(I also like the Eagles)

197
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:08pm

The what?
I haven't seen that in any supermarket around here.

203
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by billsfan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:28pm

Founder's Breakfast Stout. It's an Oatmeal Stout flavored with coffee and chocolate. 8% ABV, deceptively smooth. Adding just oatmeal to stouts has been done for at least 100 years--gives a smoother mouthfeel.

Adding flavors to beers is hit-or-miss. The Chocolate Bock in this year's Sam Adams winter mix pack, for example, is a disgusting abomination, but the sugar and spices in most Belgian Ales is quite tolerable.

Pumpkin really adds no flavor to beers, it's just the spices you taste. Haven't had Harvest Moon (the Blue Moon pumpkin ale), but Dogfish, Weyerbacher, Brooklyn (AKA Post Road), and Shipyard all make good pumpkin ales.

If you get the Discovery Channel, they're doing a miniseries on Dogfish Head called "Brewmasters" (10 EST tonight). Fruit and spices in beer will seem normal after you see some of the stuff they do.

(I also like the Eagles)

217
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 10:04pm

I disagree; pumpkin beers *can* have decent pumpkin flavor, they just typically don't (and instead have the spices, as you say). However, a decent pumpkin ale should rely on the pumpkin flavor to supplement the beer itself rather than on pumpkin spices. I have a friend who actually brewed a batch of pumpkin ale that used an entire pumpkin in the beer (strained, of course, but it was in during the brewing process). No word yet on how it tastes, however :)

If one doesn't like flavored beers, I really can't recommend much of the exotic Dogfish Head line; a lot of those are a bit strange even for my peculiar palate.

247
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 2:32pm

dogfish head 90 minute ipa is probably the most delicious beer i've ever had

173
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:01pm

Greg Olsen risp the ball out of Pattersons hands for the score. Bears up by 15. Hmm...

176
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:13pm

The Earl Bennet-cat. A Forte run for a nice gain.

181
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:29pm

Brutal holding call brings back a 73-yard screen pass to Ray Rice. Sketchy call, but probably balances out the equally sketchy PI call that got Baltimore into scoring position just before halftime.

185
Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:40pm

Michael Oher reported out with a sprained knee. Truth be told, if you saw the play you probably know he's damn lucky to come out with only a sprain.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Tampa Bay Mike (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:50pm

And Eagles kick the field goal. Game over. Gotta love the play calling by the Eagles. That completely undisguised run up the middle on first down was classic. The Eagles can't run up the middle. It's usually nothing with an occasional boom thrown in just enough to keep them doing it. They continue to have red zone issues. That's Indy, NY, and now Chicago. Tough loss. Losing both starting corners is hard on any team, but it's no excuse for the bad tackling. Eagles ain't going anywhere with this D. Second round playoff loss at best. They need to roll Vick out more or have him drop back farther so the shorty can see, these short drops with him in the pocket voluntarily neutralize much of his effectiveness. It's just poor strategy. Everything about the Eagles should be on the edge and misdirections based upon it.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 7:54pm

That should have been PI on Ernie Sims. The no call leads to an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty on Jay Cutler for yelling demonstratively at the official for not calling the PI.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Tampa Bay Mike (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:01pm

I guess the thought process here is go for the onside kick.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:02pm

Andy Reid school of game management FTW !

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Pilkington (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:14pm

And yet they're within a score after Vick somehow threads it through three defenders to Celek.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Mark S. (not verified) :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 11:31am

Yeah, taking the FG on the penultimate Philly drive was bizarre. He really just can't figure this stuff out.

I mean, it was a longshot either way, but I would think that with 5 min left, your chances of converting a fourth down and a 2-pter and getting a stop and another TD are a lot better than relying on onside kick(s) and getting 2 additional TDs.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Tampa Bay Mike (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:04pm

Of course as poorly as the D has played, the offense has 1 TD, 3 FG's and a pick in the red zone.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Tampa Bay Mike (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:05pm

Of course as poorly as the D has played, the offense has 1 TD, 3 FG's and a pick in the red zone.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Tampa Bay Mike (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:15pm

That was indeed a nice throw. Still if the Bears lose this game they'll have to commit seppuku to remove the shame. This one should be in the bag already.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Tampa Bay Mike (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:17pm

He was touched. Replay will show it. Game over.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:20pm

Johnny Knox lucks out that no official is going to make that call in Chicago.

What an bone-headed thing to do with a potentially live ball.

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Eddo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:40pm

Replay showed that two Eagles touched him. It was no more boneheaded than 95% of all plays.

EDIT: And, given the chippiness that was occurring at the bottom of every pile in the fourth quarter, I don't blame him for popping up to his feet quickly.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:45pm

I saw replay where two Eagles stuck there hands near him -- 1 foot, 1 knee, but nothing that I would say is conclusive* that he was touched on the ground.

I'll admit I didn't have the audio on, was a whistle blown before he handed it off ?

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Eddo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 9:38pm

Hard to say anything with regards to a whistle, it was not clear on TV.

What I saw on replay was this:

1) Knox jumps up to get the ball.
2) He catches it.
3) After catching it, while still in the air, Knox's upper body is touched by the hand of an Eagles' player (#51, I believe).
4) Knox lands and falls to the ground in one motion. At this point, he is down by contact, since he was contacted in the air and fell to the ground.
5) While laying on the ground, Knox's leg is touched by another Eagles' player (#50-something, I think).

The contact at step #5 is not as obvious (I think this is what you're referring to), but the contact in #3 was pretty clear to me.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 10:03pm

I wasn't paying attention to the uniform numbers of the Eagles players, but Eddo is completely correct. Knox definitely was touched while in the air after he caught it. And he was touched while on the ground.

In any event, the official ruled that he gave himself up after catching the ball (i.e., he was voluntarily down). So he didn't need to be touched by an Eagle so as to be down by contact. He was down without contact being required.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:19pm

Heyyyyyyyyyyyy...
[chiefs are running for 250 yards plus]
"They run so well. That's why Cassel is passing so well, because he sees so many people at the line of scrimage".

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by loneweasel (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:31pm

Kyle Orton, ladies and gentlemen!

4th and 16, the ball bites the dirt about 12 yards downfield.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 5:57am

Are you saying that every throw of his fails to make it more than 12 yards downfield?

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 9:17pm

inadvertent post bugger up.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Tampa Bay Mike (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:41pm

When I watch the Eagles inside the 10 I wonder why they don't just roll out Vick most every time with the option to pass or run and when teams adjust, call a play that attacks the adjustment. If I'm the defense I want Vick in the pocket in those situations. What I don't want is to have to stop a designed run-pass three or four times in a row.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Alexander :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:47pm

3 Things on the Bears/Eagles

1. Vick's stats were inflated, and his DVOA is probably good and his DYAR is probably good. That being said he did exactly what the Bears wanted for most of the game.
2. Vick's passing ability was exposed. He had upwards of 5 seconds in the pocket most of the time, and couldn't make things happen.
3. What happened to the Eagle's defense?

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by akn (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 9:10pm

That was 3 things on the Eagles. As far as the Bears:

1. Is Forte that much better than Taylor?
2. I know Webb is a rookie, but he cannot finish a game cleanly. Every game, he has at least one penalty and one missed assignment leading to an easy sack. Future opponents (esp in the playoffs) will exploit him repeatedly.
3. Defense had an outstanding game plan. The line put good pressure for most of the game. I think Vick's first reads are always the deep routes. The safeties bailing deep really helped shut that down and forced Vick to go short/intermediate. With the backers and line playing so fast, the short crossing receivers were brought down immediately. Tremendous patience--the Eagles had to work hard for every point.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Tampa Bay Mike (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 9:10pm

1. The Eagles moved up and down the field mostly by air the entire game when they had the ball. I'm sure that the Bear's would rather have this than big plays but it's not really a knock on Vick. The only inflation would be on the last drive dink and dunks(and even there you have to give credit on that TD throw, it was well defended and perfectly placed).

2. This doesn't make sense unless you have some game tape showing missed reads. He was accurate and effective when he threw. Did he miss open receivers?

3. In general they haven't tackled well all year, remove both starting corners and voila.

The difference in this game was what the Eagles did in the red zone (and the D). It's the same situation as with Indy and NY. They've been living dangerously by leaving points on the field and it bit them this time.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Alexander :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 9:36pm

1. The dink and dump netted 2 touchdowns. That is a victory against a team that often has 2 touchdowns of 50+ yards in a game.
Also the Bears were winning the entire game, often by more than 2 touchdowns. When you have that kind of lead, if your opponent has a 5 minute drive for a field goal, that is a win.

2. He missed semi-open receivers that were 15 yards down field on nearly every play. The Bears continually dared him to take those gains. Carson Palmer makes things happen when he has 5 seconds in the pocket.

Also I was and continued to be confused by the praise for the Bear's defensive line, which did not seem that impressive at all.

3. Yea, the missing corners defiantly was bad, but Forte was good inside as well.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Tampa Bay Mike (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 10:10pm

1. What's that have to do with Vick's stats being inflated? Vick is part of the deep threat. That's why teams are giving up the short stuff. That has much to do with him, so I don't see how his stats are inflated because of his ability to hit the deep ball. The Bears didn't stop Philly from moving up and down the field the entire game, so he was likely effective on third down even without the last drive. His completion percentage was lower than usual but he threw at least four balls away intentionally under duress, which are good decisions unless he missed someone open. The failure was the same as it's been for a while now, the red zone. I guess we'll have to wait and see how much removing the last drive from the game due to strategic concerns changes his effectiveness, I'm sure the Quick Reads will cover it.

2. Didn't see that except for once. NFL rewind will answer this one. It still looks like Vick is playing well and some of the time he has to throw is due to him.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 10:21pm

The praise for the Bears' defensive line was entirely justified. They got consistent pressure without losing their containment responsibilities. How many times have we seen defensive lineman rush upfield against Vick, only to allow him to escape the pocket and make big plays running the ball? That didn't happen once today.

Peppers was unbelievable. Vick usually makes defensive lineman look foolish as he sidesteps them in one-on-one situations. Not today. There were several times when Peppers and Vick ended up one-on-one and Peppers made the play, either with a sack, a tackle that limited Vick to a short gain, or keeping Vick under control until help could arrive in the form of another defender.

The defensive line also tipped several passes, including the deflection by Tommie Harris inside the 5 yard line late in the first half that resulted in the interception in the end zone by Chris Harris. That was the turning point in the game. The Bears were ahead 14-13 at the time, but the Eagles were in position to take the lead. Instead of being down 16-14 or 20-14, the Bears maintained the lead and had good field position after the long return by Chris Harris. The Bears then quickly converted that field position into a touchdown and a 21-13 lead at halftime.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 10:26pm

Peppers is phenomenal. As are the Bears' kick and punt return teams.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Mark S. (not verified) :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 11:44am

I have to agree. I didn't see this game as exposure of Vick. The Bears D-Line played great and got pressure without blitzing, and were athletic enough (Peppers is a freak) to make plays on him when they got through. That's always going to make it tough.

The Giants also got pressure on Vick last week, but they usually had to blitz from the secondary to do so.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 2:33pm

vick played pretty well but he missed a wide open celek twice BAD... looked like he thought celek had desean speed

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 8:56pm

Good to see some discussion from semi-rational talking heads on ESPN about how ridiculous that flag on Harrison was.

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Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Gus (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 9:07pm

Yeah, the Steelers got hosed. They still didn't play well at all, but the game shouldn't've made it to OT.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Raiderjoe :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 10:23pm

c'mon Cotlss . neeed Raiders to stay tieid wiht Chargers

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 11:14pm

I just can't fathom the Colts defence. They can look like the worst in the league for long periods, then come up with big plays at crucial moments, out of nowhere.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 11:20pm

Damn my 30 point lead with my opponent having only the chargers defense... against Peyton on the road... seemed safe...

but it is almost gone now.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 12:27am

It lasted until that last meaningless interception. I lose by 1 pt.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by JIPanick :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 8:25pm

Who the heck plays the Chargers D/ST (emphasis on ST) against anyone?

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 8:35pm

If there is one time to use it, it's against the Colts.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Pat Swinnegan :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 11:22pm

Fairly or otherwise, Manning is looking to be out of the MVP race at this point.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Danger Dan (not verified) :: Sun, 11/28/2010 - 11:58pm

Am I missing something? Why do you kick a field goal up 33-14...in the fourth quarter...on 4th and 1 at the goal line...with the opportunity to get a first down without getting in the end zone?

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by 0tarin :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 12:19pm

I wondered about that myself at the time. The best I could figure was that by going up by 22, it means the opponent must get a minimum of 3 touchdowns (plus at least one two-point conversion) to even tie, whereas (potentially) leaving it at 19 means that they can tie it up with only two touchdowns (plus two 2pt conversions) and a field goal. Of course, the likelihood that they would be stopped at the line was slim, but from what I can tell it seems like the correct decision.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 12:05am

Ok, so it was clearly unflagged DPI on Manning's second pick 6 they keep showing, but what really didn't help was Reggie Wayne's theatrical dive, reminiscent of some of the worst simulation you would ever see on a soccer field. If he doesn't do that it's almost certainly pass incomplete in spite of the pass interference.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Alexander :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 12:12am

He doesn't seem to be an elite receiver anymore. So perhaps that is his new strategy, like Paul Pierce always selling the foul when he drives, because he can't actually get to the rim.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by loneweasel (not verified) :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 12:42am

Um, maybe Archie's first born just isn't very good at football.

I'll take five or six quarterbacks in AFC South over him. What say you, commissioner leaf?

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by kamiyu206 :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 12:49am

Yes, that's why Archie's first born doesn't play in NFL. Good point. Thanks.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by Pat Swinnegan :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 12:49am

Um, maybe Archie's first born just isn't very good at football.

Considering Cooper is the only one who isn't playing in the NFL, I'd say that's a fair assessment.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 9:55pm

Ouch. One minute SF whiffs a field goal and Gore's headed to the locker room, and then the next Anderson and Wells can't master the basic hand-off (anyone know if that was on the QB, RB, or both?), and Smith immediately burns the defense for a 38-yard TD to Crabtree. Famine to feast...

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by tuluse :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 10:02pm

If I had to blame someone, I would say more Wells than Anderson, but there's certainly enough blame to go around.

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Re: Week 12 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Mon, 11/29/2010 - 10:09pm

Right now, the defense seems to be jealous of them both and trying to accrue as much blame for themselves as possible...It's amazing what losing Warner and Dansby has done to both units.

At least I can console myself that with every time Anderson makes a mistake, Leinart has yet to pass Dan "Where's the back of the end zone, again?" Orlovsky on the HOU depth chart.

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