Talk amongst yourselves
9/1: Updated ADP data.
8/31: Updated at 3 p.m. EDT with further final cuts.
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24 Nov 2013
Retroactively discuss Thursday's game, assuming you didn't forget about it like we did. Oh, and other games. Whatever.
Posted by: Rivers McCown on 24 Nov 2013
152 replies , Last at
20 Dec 2013, 1:47am by
Texans start the game off with a 7 yard sack of Henne. They they proceed to allow the Jags to convert the first down after giving up a 15 yard gain on screen a screen pass. If they're going to allow the Jags to move in chunks of yardage like that it's going to be a painful game.
And on the next series Texans give up a 25 yard play on 3rd and 4 giving the Jags possession inside the 10. Brandon Harris and Brice McCain run into each other while failing to execute a switch in coverage.
A secondary featuring Shiloh Keo, McCain, and Harris is... suboptimal.
Jags are aggressive going for it on 4th and goal from the 1. MJD punches it in. Texans inability to stop 3rd down on the two preceding sets of downs has been a consistent issue this season.
Jacksonville has ditched playing dodo football for a few games already. They are going for it on 4th down a lot and are going for TDs instead of FGs.
Keenum takes a 20 yard sack on 3rd and 8. Texans have to punt it away. At least the Texans didn't cough up a turnover giving the Jags a short field. One step at a time.
The Houston defense fails to prevent another 3rd and long conversion. On top of it Jonathan Joseph goes to the sidelines after the play. If Joseph is out for any length of time I think their back-up is... me.
I like your odds.
Looks like to can tell my agent to stand-down. Joseph is back on the field.
On defense the Texans are just pinning their ears back and going after Henne. When the rush gets their it ends poorly for the Jags, but when it doesn't they're converting chunks of yardage.
On offense they have been mostly ineffective. They haven't taken any shots downfield, mostly because nothing has been open for him.
Commentator is saying something about the Defensive Coordinator of the Browns.
He brought them to 'championship form'.
I know it's hard to separate one unit from another one to calculate DVOA but Cleveland defense is 19th in DVOA... did I miss something?
Looking at the raw statistics one is left with the impression that Browns are a defense that gets thrown under the bus a lot by the other units of their team. And that while they make the opposition fight for their yards, they're prone to surrendering TDs and lack the ability to create the kind of plays that are necessary to swap field position. They're good at yards per play, decent at resisting 1st downs, bad at preventing TDs, not great at producing turnovers. They'd probably be a much better defense if they had a much better offense, but they don't and the surrendering TDs as opposed to forcing FGs is pretty much on them.
The Jags defense is all over the Texans offense. Keenum getting little time to pass, and the CBs are all over the WRs. The Texans have made it into Jag territory once, and have under 15 yards of total offense midway through the 2nd quarter.
Campbell needs attention after being brought down. He was rolling and got tackled and landed badly on what looked like an easy tackle.
Weeden is warming up. Again.
This is getting creepy. Like there's a curse on any QB playing ahead of Weeden. As Simmons would say: God hates Cleveland.
So the refs call 3 penalties on the Bears on one play (only the first one should have mattered, as it was clearly an incomplete pass and the play should have been blown dead immediately...and then everything after that wouldn't have happened), but Chris Long leaves the bench to join the fight and that goes unnoticed. Okay.
I think thats snow in Cleveland. Is this the first snowfall during play this season?
So Simpson falls on Burnett after making the catch and Burnett gets a 15 yard penalty? I've been pretty good about dealing with all the new rules that are claimed to be for safety but sometimes the calls are just....
Of course I might just be annoyed because GB's defense sucks enough, the Vikings aren't going to need the refs to help them to score, even with Ponder at QB.
Watching it live, I can see why it was called. But agree that, on replay, it's a terrible call.
“Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be.”
Yeah it was not a good call at all.
Gus Bradley loses a timeout and a challenge when he tries to challenge that a member of the punt coverage unit was out of the end zone when he downed a punt. It seems to me it was a terrible situation to challenge. Yes, the difference between downing the ball at the one, and a touchback is a lot of yardage, but the Jags defense has been smothering and the Texans have been incredibly ineffective. Keeping the challenge (and it was a close call but clearly called correctly on the field) would seem to have been a better call there.
Haden makes a rookie mistake.
He's in man coverage and step for step with Antonio Brown - perhaps the fastest guy on the field - and Haden decides to look back to see if the ball is on its way even though he hasn't eaten up his cushion yet.
Next thing you know, Haden is slowing down and Brown is still sprinting. Brown gets separation, catches the ball and it's a TD.
Who would've thought; running while looking behind you slows you down.
Polamalu almost exclusively does his job close to the LOS or in the flats.
So now he can make plays without being out of position! Whoo hoo!!
Rams were supposed to be a good team this year, but nobody gave them the memo. Then, just when everyone agreed that the Rams were a bad team this year, nobody gave them that memo either. Someone better send the Bears a memo that every game from here on out has playoff implications.
Luke Kuechly hits Dolphin receiver with helmet to helmet hit. Looked like unnecessary roughness.
And then picked up.
So...apparently there's some kind of secret memo saying that Kuechly can do what he wants to in the end zone, and it's not a penalty.
Unlike the game last Monday, I don't see how there's any argument here. It was a clear helmet-to-helmet hit. Why are flags being picked up?
There's clearly something going on here where referees that are in a bad position are overruling those in a good position.
It's really strange to see the guy whos 50 feet away overrule a guy who is 5 feet away.
ps. Does the spam filter ever think something isn't spam?
I think it helps to be logged in.
Although most of my longer comments need spam-thing.
I guess a lot of words are considered 'spam'.
Funny, the spam filter never hassles me. #PatriotsBias :)
I guess Buffalo was lucky that Kuchely committed his foul from the 11.
DJ Swearinger barely misses what could have a been a pick-6 for Houston when he drops a Henne pass to Shorts. The Texans finally stop a Jags 3rd down, but Antonio Smith goes helmet-helmet hitting Henne (and it was a text-book penalty; leading with the crown on his helmet right into Henne's facemask) and the penalty gives the Jags 15 yards and a first down.
JJ Watt blocks Scobee's FG attempt. It's a shame that the Texans' failure of a year has left Watt's performance this season out of the headlines. Seems like he's been even more disruptive this season, just without the gaudy sack numbers.
Flacco hits a bomb over Reed to Jacoby Jones for a 66 yard TD. Can't imagine the Jets coming back given how their offense has played.
So 'aiding the runner' is totally legal now, no?
Because Adams (lineman Steelers) pretty much carried Bell (halfback Steelers) for another 2 yards.
I don't think I've ever seen it actually get called, and it happens quite a bit.
I saw the ref talking to Adams after that particular play. Perhaps it was a warning? "Please don't force me to make that call..."
Texans Special Teams are making a serious push to supplant the Redskins as the worst in DVOA. Martin fields a kick 2 yards deep and fails to make it to the 15.
Roethlisberger punts to the 1!
Those bud light commercials are just too retarded.
They don't score because you got beer from the basement you idiot. Only morons think that way.
Consider the target audience.
Football fans? Yeah, you're right.
Your words, not mine.
I was going with beer drinking americans.
Closer to the mark. I was thinking "drinkers of cheap American beer".
oh that doesn't make you a snob. American light beer is like sex in a canoe.
I think they're meant to be tongue-in-cheek.
Texans driving in the last minute to try and tie the game, but Keyshawn Martin bobbles a reception which is then picked off by the Jags.
With this loss does it give the Texans the first pick if the season ended today?
So is there a worse referee than Jerome Boger? Not complaining about the roughing-the-passer gift the Bears just got, but my God, the penalty calls have been terrible in this game. Does he get paid by the flag?
San Diego might lose thanks to the prevent offense.
Why can't teams that are moving the ball just keep playing the same way with 5 minutes to go and a small lead? Run the clock if you are 2 scores up, but 3 points isn't much with the way kickers and pass defense are these days.
Rivers may have just bailed them out.
Very nice TD pass there.
I'd make some kind of comment about the KC defense being overrated, but the loss of Hali and Houston has got to make a serious impact that mitigates that somewhat, especially since SD has a good offense anyway. Still, that sack by Berry on the final drive was the first one they've had in three weeks, which is not a good sign.
In other news, Case Keenum could not get in the end zone at home against the Jaguars. Almost feels like Houston is taking securing the first pick in the draft into their own hands.
So when Green Bay had a 4th-and-goal from the 2 on the first drive of overtime, was it crazy of me to think they should've gone for it? If you make it, game over, and even if you don't they get ball the back right up against their own end zone. Plus you avoid kicking to Patterson.
Seems like a decent idea to me.
I was thinking the same thing, particularly when Minnesota ripped right down the field and didn't stall until deep in the GB end. I contrast Ron Rivera going for it on 4th-and-10 in his own end in the win over Miami (talk about a guy who's done a complete 180 this year...)
tie alert in Wisconsin.
When it went to 1st and 25, I actually thought the best option for GB was take a knee and the tie. The chance of something bad happening in the last 30 seconds was much higher than the chance of anything positive. Looks like the tie will happen anyway unless Ponder has a 66-yard Hail Mary in him, though.
Actual quote from Colts/cards game: "It's always great when comedian Carrot Top comes out to enjoy the game."
No, no it's not.
Carrot Top's mom is in the house?
If the Jets keep playing the way they have the past two weeks, Rex Ryan may still yet be fired, despite his team currently being in a tie for the sixth seed in the AFC.
Speaking of that sixth seed, there will be a six-way tie for that spot at the end of play today.
Is it just me, or does teams tend to spend too much time per play in overtime? The goal isn't to run out the clock and get a tie, the goal is to end the game by scoring a touchdown on an early drive or a field goal on a late drive, and spending 6 minutes on the first drive just to get a field goal isn't all that helpful.
Agree would like to see teams run more hurry up, no huddle Offenses in an Overtime; instead of going heavy personnel and playing like it's the 1st quarter again.
Fatigue is probably an issue by that stage. Tough to run the hurry with linemen who have already slugged it out for 4 quarters I'd imagine.
You actually have 15 minutes to score, so you have all the time in the world.
Better get the right personnel and the right play in.
If both you and your opponent are running a 5-6 minute drive just to get a shot at a field goal, then 15 minutes is nothing. Especially if you end up needing two field goals to win.
You're not starting the first drive of an overtime with the idea to run multiple drives.
You drive the way you think will give you the best chance at a TD. If that's in slow mo, then it's slow mo.
Cardinals looking like they really want that Niner playoff slot. Colts looking like, well, the most inconsistent team of the season.
Palmer really looks like he's settling in with Arians and the rest of the offense of late. If they could just figure out that Ellington is a better RB than Mendenhall (though Mendenhall *is* having a good game today, to give credit where it's due), they might genuinely have something.
I wouldn't read too much into a performance against the Colt's defense. It's imploded over the last month. The front seven is totally ineffective at this point, excluding maybe Mathis. Even he isn't playing great though. The bad front seven has exposed the mediocre secondary. Completion percentage has been off the charts against the Colts recently.
Yep. The media won't blame Luck one bit for the Colts inconsistency, though. Even though he gets all the credit when they win.
Perhaps it's because most people realize he has a terrible line and no receivers.
So do a bunch of other QBs.
Or perhaps he only has a subpar o-line and receivers when the Colts lose. Because when they win, you'd think that Luck blocked for himself and caught his own TDs, when those same subpar teammates actually gave him plenty of support.
No, his liene sucks every week. He has taken 50% more hits then any other QB in the league. Since Reggie Wayne went down, he has one NFL quality receiver. Luck hasn't played great over the last month, but it is silly to claim that he is the reason for the Colt's poor offensive performances.
So? He's an elite QB. He should helping his line by getting rid of the ball quicker, right? It's what I always hear about Luck when the Colts win, he makes everyone and everything better. But when they don't win it's the o-lines fault. Not buying the double standard.
No, he's holding the ball too long because nobody can get open, actually. I'm not sure what you're arguing, though Since he can't overcome a poor line and poor receivers every week that makes him overrated? If that's you're point, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Please don't feed the trolls.
So? Luck is elite. He's supposed to throw pinpoint passes to covered receivers. That's all I hear about Luck whenever the Colts win, now that they don't win it's the receivers fault.
No, he's isn't overrated because of that. He's just overrated. He's been a good QB this season and has played well at times, but people need to stop making him elite when he still has to prove that he's the best young QB of his generation.
And LionsInAZ, no one asked you to reply.
Don't bother with this guy. We all know football is not a one man game.
I'm confused: New York has been much better at running than passing in this game. Facing 3rd and 6, and knowing that they would go for it on 4th, why not run? They've gotten several long runs in the game, so it's not at all unlikely it might succeed (especially with the surprise factor), and their best RB, Brown, is their third-down back anyway.
Dallas is falling apart. With 9 minutes left and down basically a score, this should get tied up soon enough.
aaaaaaaaand you're correct.
aaaaaaaand Cowboys win anyway
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Maybe I missed something, but in the late INT in the Jets-Ravens game it appears that the defender runs out the back of the endzone on his own. I only saw the replay once, but why wasn't it called a safety?
A defender who gets control of the end zone cannot be tackled for a safety - it's a touch back. I imagine it's the same thing for a defender who runs out of the end zone.
A safety only happens when you have control of the ball outside of the end zone and bring it into your end zone and the play ends there (or there's a penalty there).
Dammit, Ridley, these fumbles are killing your future in the NFL.
RIdley may have just fumbled, but no one can take away how awesome his hair is.
Getting ridiculous out there.
First fumble was indefensible.
Second fumble was on Solder's failure to block.
Don't know what to say about this one. Looked like it was essentially caused by a knee to the head.
It's too bad Brady is all about stats and doesn't have that winning quality Peyton has.
I am sorry I will never get sick of it! :)
Surely electronic timekeeping technology should be able to handle this weather. It's the 21st century. Yes?
The referee should be wearing a vest and pulling out a pocket watch from this point forward...
Broncos have -1 net passing yards.
Coverage on the screen pass?
Pretty soon the Broncos will need to go to the long pass in order to grind the clock and avoid running up the score.
So far, tonight's answer to the "who's better, Manning or Brady?" question is "Moreno."
Odd pass interference call on Amendola.
The OPI call on Amendola was just bizarre.
It looked like textbook OPI to me, I'm not sure why Collinsworth didn't think so. It looked like Amendola actively sought out Gronkowski's man and ran into him to free him up.
And Rodgers-Cromartie hurts himself trying for a pointless INT to pad his stats. Dumb.
I imagine it's instinct for a corner to attempt to catch a ball in the air - the kind of thing you train for so much that it stops becoming a matter of judgment.
Normally I would agree with you. But it's the last play of the half, and that ball was floating in the air for quite some time there. DBs know the one rule in that situation is to bat the ball down, there's nothing to be gained for picking that off.
More weirdness: DRC apparently hurts himself diving to try to get a pick on the last play of the half.
I've got to wonder how much of tonight's sloppy play is due to the cold.
The second half should be about pride and self-respect for the Patriots. Ignore the scoreboard and just focus on avoiding stupid mistakes.
They'll have a lot more pride and self-respect if they win the game though!
That's certainly true.
Good start to the half. If only the Pats had a run defense I'd be more optimistic.
Montee Ball might have more fumbles/carry than Ridley.
The DRC injury really has opened things up for the Pats' passing game.
So, it's perfectly clear now. Gronk interfered with in endzone, National Disgrace. Gronk pass interferes in the endzone, 'Big boy Football.'
Impressive comeback by the Pats. Can't just be the injuries.
Vereen is really becoming an adventure as a receiver. Maybe it's time to shut that option down.
edit: and just like that, he converts a 3rd down.
This is why I'm not a coach.
This might end up being a blowout the other way.
Too bad - the hold had nothing to do with the pick, but dem's da rules.
With this much time left it's hard to imagine the Patriots not going down and scoring to win this one.
I see what you're up to.
Well, they'd scored on five straight drives, most of those drives with ease.
4th and short?
throw to Kevin Faulk?
I don't understand why Denver didn't use their timeouts to force NE to play to 4th down.
I think the Patriots should've gone for it on that fourth-and-one considering Brady's record on sneaks.
When the Ravens took the ball in 45 mph winds in Chicago in OT, I thought that was a mistake. But given how NE sliced up Denver's D in the 3rd quarter, this doesn't seem like the right call to me.
Very strong game for Aqib Talib.
Is Chris Collinsworth widely known as the worst announcer on NFL games? Is there anyone worse than he is?
Phil Simms is much worse.
He's one of the more tolerable to me.
Simms and some others I never care to remember the names are way way worse. Someone called Nants comes to mind.
I think he's one of the better ones.
Dierdorf and Simms are probably the worst.
Jammer got away with one there.
… And then he is karmically punished on the next play.
Come on Collinsworth, “they’re letting them play football”!
I just don't get how the Patriots can hold and interfere just about every play, and then act incensed when their opponents get away with a close one. How did Brady not get a flag screaming at the refs?
I'm almost 100% sure that morganja is either Peyton Manning, or Rex Ryan.
Can't be Peyton, but he could definitely be Archie.
However, my bet is on Mercury Morris (he started Patriot-hating in 2007).
That's the 3rd and 4 playcall, McDaniels???
You want Brady throwing deep on a cold night???
If Moreno could carry the ball more than 2x in a row without having to come out the Broncos would be in much better shape.
Tonight, Brady has outplayed Manning, but Moreno has outplayed both combined.
Memo to McD: Brady is not going to get a completion 30 yards downfield to anybody in this cold weather.
Agreed. It was pretty irritating watching McD try to kill drives. It's the end of a close game, you have the ball and plenty of time... first downs, not a kill stroke.
... That's how this game ends? bleh
Seems like that one is one Welker. Just run under the punt and call a fair catch.
Just when it looked like we would have the second tie of the day. Now that will probably never happen… I guess an appropriately odd finish to this game.
On one hand this is a terrible ending for this game. On the other it's the most fitting ending possible. And old horse-face just has to sit there and watch it happen. I am content.
Seems fitting, really. Game hyped as giant QB battle is nothing of the like, with Manning being his usual middling cold-weather self and Moreno carrying the load for the Broncos. A giant special teams blunder to set up the winning score is somehow fitting.
I know the ending wasn't aesthetically pleasing, but I'll certainly take it.
Huge game for the Patriots. In spite of their Keystone Cops shenanigans of the 1st quarter, the defense was stout enough to let the offense make the 2nd half comeback.
Agree with those above who say that Moreno was the player of the game. But Talib also had a great game, given that he was in man coverage on Demaryius Thomas most of the game.
I don't know what kind of electroshock therapy is going to be needed to get Ridley to hold onto the ball more securely.
So patriots haters, how does it feel??
I don't think the Pats run defense was as bad as it looked tonight. The Pats were playing with their top four DB's all at less than full-strength, and to my eye it looked like they were in nickel almost the entire time. It seems like they decided to not let Manning beat them and instead rely on their front four to keep Moreno from getting his yards.
Of course, that front four pretty much failed to do so, but it is notable that when it absolutely counted (i.e. in overtime when a 5 yard run was as damaging as a >5 yard pass), they were able to hold the run game in check.
Yeah, I wondered if it was a "let Thomas run" kind of game plan, which looked pretty bad when the Pats were giving the ball away, but didn't look anywhere near as bad when the offense got it in gear in the second half. I'll be fascinated to see what DVOA says about this game.
And while a lot of folks might think it's a lame ending for the game, having a fluke win you a game is kind of karmic justice after getting jobbed twice this season by the refs.
Hey, lookie! Another game winning drive for Tom Brady!
Did I mention how I loathe that stat?
Wes Welker took his eye off the ball for just a moment, locking eyes with his QB from just a season ago. The crisp night brought a rosy glow to Brady's otherwise rakish features as the chill wind played with his hair. He could hear Paula Cole's "I Don't Want To Wait" swelling in the background before the colors of teammate Tony Carter flashed in his peripheral vision, snapping him back to the game. Too late to ward anyone off, but Brady.... Such joy as he bounded back on to the field. Welker knew it was his call to make, that he blew it. His heart sank deeper as every step carried him from Brady to his own sideline. He hoped the ache was for his team, but he just didn't know.
And you don't want to credit Brady? C'mon man.
Pure brilliance. Absolutely amazing. Kudos good sir.
Kind of funny that yet another beloved ex-Pat has a special teams moment in a game in Foxboro.
Remember kids: Brady is clearly better than Manning because the punt returner didn't communicate well enough to his return team!
Terrible pick by RG3.
His accuracy continues to be off.
Hmm..Meriweather found some way to tackle CK without going for either the head or the knees.
It's almost like there's 2-3 feet of torso in between!
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