Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

08 Dec 2012

Week 14 Open Discussion Thread

Only four more weeks to snuggle in the embrace of the NFL season, you better get your fill. And talk about it, of course.

Posted by: Rivers McCown on 08 Dec 2012

246 replies , Last at 11 Dec 2012, 1:31am by The Hypno-Toad

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Aloysius Mephis... :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 8:42pm

Unrelated to the games, but any thoughts on Greg Schiano's proposal to the league to replace all kickoff plays with 4th and 15 from the 'kicking' team's 30-yard line? Personally I think it's great. Reduced injury risk, and increased drama late in games, because for most teams the odds of a 4th and 15 conversion will be greater than the odds of a successful onside kick. Also 4th and 15 is more skill-dependent and less random than an onside kick. The biggest negative is that it takes away surprise onside kicks. I love when teams go surprise onside, but you see that a couple times a season at most. I'd make that tradeoff.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by JIPanick :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 9:55pm

I always felt the obvious approach to eliminating the kickoff was to give the kicking team the choice of an automatic touchback or 4th and 10 at their own 35.

This is close in some ways, but I prefer the touchback option to straight up 4th and 15.

Why 15, anyway? I would choose either a distance to make the probability of converting similar to onside kick probability (dunno what that would be, exactly) or 4th and 10, which would make punting vs going for it similarly good options in the base case. See http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/09/4th-down-study-part-4.html

(I never thought I'd be glad to see captcha, btw!)

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 10:11pm

I'm guessing Aloysius meant to insert the words "onside kick" somewhere in the first sentence of his comment.

It makes no sense to replace all kickoffs with a 4th and 15 play. That would constitute a massive penalty against any team that scored.

Personally, I like the kickoff and don't like the NFL trying to take it out of the game. It's far from obvious to me that the injury rate on kickoffs is higher than it is on non-kickoffs.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 10:27pm

The last point is key. If the NFL are going to consider getting rid of kickoffs they need to at least show some evidence that the injury rate is higher than on any other play, otherwise it just looks like a PR exercise on player safety.

Having said that, I'm not a great fan of kickoffs and would be happy to see them replaced provided the new method did not upset the balance of the game. For every exciting play on a kick-off return it seems to me like there are dozens of penalty flags and injuries. I also feel like the officiating on kick-off returns is particularly random because of their frenetic nature. It feels as though holding or illegal blocking could be called anywhere if the officials felt like it.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Aloysius Mephis... :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 10:28pm

No, I didn't mean to insert those words. And why would it be a 'massive penalty'? It would be like any punting play, most of the time. If you think making it 4th and 15 from the 30 is too disadvantageous for the team that scored, then move it up to the 35, or the 40.

Of course, if you just like watching kick returns way more than punt returns then there's no reason you should favor this proposal.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 10:44pm

I was omitting the possibility of punting for some brain-related reason.

Still, I don't see why a punt return is supposed to be safer than a kickoff return.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Aloysius Mephis... :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 10:56pm

Well, it might have a lower injury risk because players aren't running at each other at full speed from such a distance. But I don't have any stats to back that up; I assume it's one of the things the league will look at. I'm more excited because I think teams would have a better shot at a 4th and 15 conversion than at an expected onside kick. Since they changed the rules on onside kicks so that the kicking team can't re-kick after being offside, and can't stack all its personnel to one side of the field, expected onside kicks have become too hard to do successfully.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Guest789 :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 1:28am

The general logic is that punt returns involved players running downfield beside each other, rather than running into each other at full speed. It passes the common sense test, but I'd also like to see some stats backing it up before we get rid of one of my favourite parts of the game.

-----

“Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be.”

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Rich A (not verified) :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 2:01am

I'm kinda surprised that the Outsiders didn't make this a sticky of it's own.

I'm with Aloy and love this idea.

I also think all of the comments and questions here have made a lot of sense, which is more than I can say of what I read over at Profootballtalk when I read about this on my phone a few hours ago.

I have no idea about injury concerns on kickoffs vs regular plays, and kickoffs vs punts; what I do like is that it replaces the onside kick with a regular play.

As someone said above the 30 is too far back; I agree with this. I think it should be a bit closer so that the kicking team isn't really giving up massive field position, but then again, it would make a great punter that much more valuable.

I think the result of going to this format would be more opportunity for come backs once a team seizes momentum. While this might be dreadful for the Patriots, whom I root for, as their defense seems to give up a bunch of points later in games, I think it would be great to see teams really fight for it in the last 5 minutes, even if down say 17 or 18. Further, I think it could lead to some really interesting formation diversity and fakes.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by QCIC (not verified) :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 2:05pm

I would love an end to all kicking. Just football, no remnants of other sports which have no place, slow the game down, require extra equipment for the fields, extra sections in a much longer rulebook, and otherwise just detract from the game's elegance.

One teams tars with the ball on the 20 (or 25 or whatever the break even point is), they get 4 downs, they drive until they get stopped or score a TD, repeat. No extra points punting or FGs, no kickoffs. More football less random skills competition.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 9:58pm

Manning is furious with at least one person during the post-drive debriefing after the second drive. I wasn't paying enough attention on the play where he got sacked to have much of a guess who it is.
Oh, he's also yelling at Moreno to get up and join the group and it looks like Moreno was yelling back at him. That seems like a bad idea.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by apbadogs :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 8:55am

I noticed that (Moreno) as well...looks like he doesn't give a shat about listening to Manning.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 9:59pm

Carson Palmer still sucks.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Will Allen :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 10:24pm

Raiderjoe really ought to be required to do a running commentary here whenever da Raidahs appear in prime time.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 10:31pm

Especially when its the Btoncos!

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by steveNC (not verified) :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 1:50pm

Perhaps it's harder to be optimistic/delusional about the Raiders' future if doing running commentary on a game like that.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Chris UK :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 10:27pm

Loved that interception. Great play by Adams.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 10:32pm

Seriously. That was an amazingly athletic play.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 10:59pm

Denaryius Moore catches pass at 20, runs backwards 4 yards before being tackled. :)

Looks like Oakland is still in this game in spite of being outplayed for the first 25 minutes.

Edit:
The weirder thing, not only did Denarius Moore start running backwards, but the Broncos defenders decided they weren't going to have any of that, so they chased him and tackled him before he lost too much yardage!

The refs were kind and ignored the backwards running.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 10:48pm

Biggest surprise so far is that the Manning has been sacked 3 times and generally harassed, whereas Palmer has been pretty much untouched.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:16pm

A portion of that is that the Broncos (arguably) best offensive, RG Chris Kuper lineman is out. His replacement, Manny Ramirez may be a better pass blocker than the baseball player of the same name, but I doubt the difference is all that striking.
For the first half, the Broncos also seemed to forget that Linebackers are allowed to rush the passer, so they failed to block that.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:21pm

Make that "offensive lineman" rather than just offensive.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:31pm

It's also noticeable that several times a Raiders defender has been in the backfield to tackle Moreno.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:36pm

Very true, I should have generalized my language. The Bronco guards are pretty bad at all aspects of their jobs.
But in their defense, Knowshon Moreno exerts some as-yet-undefined defender attracting field.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 12:53am

To be fair, Zane Beadles played a better game tonight than I'm used to seeing from him. And Moreno was... not a liability for the most part.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:05pm

Cmon Palmer, at least give me some hope that the Raiders can pull off the upset.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:13pm

It's not really news, but Palmer just can't make the throws anymore. Underthrows a wide open Denarius Moore on third down just now. He had pressure in his face and was throwing off the back foot, but your average NFL QB makes that throw. A couple in the first half also where the lack of velocity on the ball allowed the DB to make a play on the ball.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:21pm

The Palmer trade continues to look like the worst trade since Herschel Walker went to the Vikings.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:19pm

Terrible throw on that DPI. Denver bailed out because defender never turns around to see the pass thrown behind him.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:20pm

Broncos having real red zone issues tonight.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:27pm

Tuck rule???

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:28pm

So much for making it interesting....

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:29pm

I don't understand why they didn't check that one out on replay. Not that I know exactly how the tuck rule works, but it looks like Palmer pumped the ball and didn't put it away before fumbling.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:37pm

It was a turnover; somebody had to look at it.

Going back on the DVR...

Palmer pumped, pulled back, and seemed to be pumping again when he was hit. He twisted around, the ball and hand seemed to hit the back of his lineman, and then it was out.

I'd love to hear an explanation of how the tuck rule applies to this play.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 12/06/2012 - 11:55pm

Well I thought after the second pump he never tucked the ball away. He was in the process of putting it away after he was hit. I'm definitely rooting for the Broncos (-10.5) here, so I'm not complaining about the call. But that's just how I remember the rule, if the QB pumps and is putting it away then its a tuck rule. But I guess Palmer just held the ball high around his head after the second pump.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 12:59am

The other possibility I thought of was that, he was so twisted around from being hit, that the second pass pump was actually moving the ball backwards. The tuck rule wouldn't help on a backwards pass. There's no such thing as an incomplete backwards pass.

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NFL Tuck Rule Video
by Insancipitory :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 1:43am

Oh, how I wish you were right.

http://tinyurl.com/TuckRule

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Re: NFL Tuck Rule Video
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:11pm

I should know better than to apply common sense to rule interpretation.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by GimmickyShtPoster (not verified) :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 4:27pm

Paging RaiderJoe to shit post in this thread and have a legion of fan boiyz slop their nobs over him.

I can msspel wrds too. Cna I not get banedn?

In all seriousness the raiders looked awful. Someone should take them out behind a woodshed. "Just win baby" indeed. As a long time denver fan, I'd prefer my/our rivals actually look like they play in the NFL as opposed to an average D2 team. This is no fun. Also, my quarterback has a fetus neck.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by LionInAZ :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 10:22pm

Raiderjoe misspells words, but he doesn't act like an asshole here.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Insancipitory :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 10:35pm

That dude isn't acting.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by JIPanick :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 11:22pm

Harsh.

But probably true.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by GimmickyShtPoster (not verified) :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 4:27pm

Paging RaiderJoe to shit post in this thread and have a legion of fan boiyz slob their nobs over him.

I can msspel wrds too. Cna I not get banedn?

In all seriousness the raiders looked awful. Someone should take them out behind a woodshed. "Just win baby" indeed. As a long time denver fan, I'd prefer my/our rivals actually look like they play in the NFL as opposed to an average D2 team. This is no fun. Also, my quarterback has a fetus neck.

40
Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by GimmickyShtPoster (not verified) :: Fri, 12/07/2012 - 4:27pm

Paging RaiderJoe to shit post in this thread and have a legion of fan boiyz slob their nobs over him.

I can msspel wrds too. Cna I not get banedn?

In all seriousness the raiders looked awful. Someone should take them out behind a woodshed. "Just win baby" indeed. As a long time denver fan, I'd prefer my/our rivals actually look like they play in the NFL as opposed to an average D2 team. This is no fun. Also, my quarterback has a fetus neck.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:38pm

Just don't even try. You're not even a fraction as knowledgeable about football history as RaiderJoe. N00b5 like you see his misspellings and think that's all he's good for, but the fact is the man's brain is absolutely loaded with expertise.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Sat, 12/08/2012 - 5:15pm

Random question:

What's the best site to buy NFL teams' merch from? My father in law wants a new 49ers sweatshirt for Christmas and he has three requirements for it:

1) It must be grey
2) It cannot have a hood
3) his size is XXXL Long

Everywhere I've looked, I can find stuff that fits two of the requirements, but I haven't been able to find anywhere that sells one that fits all three.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by KristianDK (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 12:53pm

Ahhh. The joy of asking ones son in law for the impossible :-). Its priceless.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by KristianDK (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 12:53pm

Ahhh. The joy of asking ones son in law for the impossible :-). Its priceless.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Hummingbird Cyborg :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 1:26pm

You could always buy a hooded one and a pair of scissors.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by joe football (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 1:30pm

Be sure join a star-studded cast of your favorite FO posters for gameday football chat!
Instructions moved to pastebin due to overzealous spam filter: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Qjf3ZzvE

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:23pm

Boldin is done right? No speed left.

You don't need speed to toast DeAngelo Hall though. A simple out-and-up and a Flacco pumpfake and it's 7-7 in D.C.

The production showed closeup of the safety, but it's on Hall

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:35pm

I'd like to see what the Redskins depth at CB looks like. I find it hard to believe that DeAngelo Hall is really the best guy they have to put on the field.

It's been great seeing the team play Cedric Griffin and Josh Wilson at the corners, but Griffin is serving a 4-game drug suspension.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by DRohan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:53pm

Hall just made a good aggressive tackle on an outlet pass to the RB. He hit the RB low with his shoulder to take his legs out. This prompted a comment from the commentator that it was a "perfect form tackle."

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:47pm

He'll make plays like that often enough to fool people into thinking he's a competent player. All the nice tackles int he world won't make up for getting burned for two touchdowns earlier

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by DRohan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:53pm

I don't disagree. The larger point was the description of a tackle made without using your arms as not only a form tackle, but a perfect form tackle.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:32pm

The refs just called offsetting penalties in Washington: intentional grounding on RGIII, and roughing the passer on Haloti Ngata. Is this possible? First of all, I thought a personal foul trumped anything else, and it should have been enforced. Secondly, intentional grounding was called because the ball didn't reach the line of scrimmage, but it looked like the ball didn't reach the line of scrimmage BECAUSE of the roughing!

It turns out to be moot, as the Redskins converted and scored a touchdown on the drive anyway, but it seems to me that the refs called it all wrong.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:53pm

I asked a similar question a couple years ago, and the best answer I got was that Personal Fouls trump procedure penalties, but that they generally offset with in-play penalties.
I didn't see the play so I can't comment on the specifics.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:55pm

I thought the roughing the passer was a bit harsh.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Bud Bundy (not verified) :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 1:04am

I didn't see the play, but how can it be roughing if he got there in time to affect the pass?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 1:26am

That's easy. Hit the QB too high (head/neck) or too low (below the knee).

Note: I didn't see the RGIII play so I've no idea whether that's what was called. I'm just pointing out that it's possible to get to the passer before he gets the ball out and still rough him.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:35pm

Color guy in Skins game:

"Griffin in the pistol - their version of the option. Very few quarterbacks, especially rookies, would be able to run it"

I count three errors in two sentences. Yeesh.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by ammek :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:52pm

Normally I hate it when the commentators project one quarter's worth of football onto the whole game, but in this case I think AP really could end up with 400 yards rushing in this game. Or at least 300.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:52pm

The NFL should organise a charitable collection for the poor victims forced to watch Jets-Jags.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:53pm

I've been hearing a lot of chatter about a coaching change in Carolina, am I the only one that thinks that would be absolutely nuts? Early in the year Mikr Florio was even chirping about how the new regime might not want to hitch their wagon to Newton. It takes a couple years to turn a franchise around and I'm sorry, Carolina seems to be moving in the right direction still.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:55pm

Also, announcers, it's been 13 weeks... I think you can stop telling us that all scoring plays are reviewed.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:57pm

Maybe they're trying to tell the coaches?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:00pm

I forgot about that, which just adds to what I was trying to say. If the damned coaches don't know the rules I think I can put up with someone explaining it to the fans.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:58pm

I dunno, the football world went in to a hissy fit after the 'Calvin Johnson rule' incident because so many people didn't know the rules, then did the same with the catch on the 'fail mary' and during the rams-niners game last month most of the players didn't seem to know that the game could be a tie. I really don't think we've reached the stage where they don't need to point out the rules.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 2:57pm

Oof, Deangelo Hall gets beat for another TD by Boldin. Not sure if there the safety should have been there, but there is no excuse letting Boldin getting by you, he's very slow for a WR.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:02pm

Hall got burned by Boldin AGAIN! This time for a 30+ yard score.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:55pm

Halls coverage was PATHETIC on that play

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by ammek :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:05pm

Bears doing an excellent job of taking themselves out of field goal range on successive drives with penalties and sacks. Seven runs and 17 dropbacks called so far, and we're not halfway through the second quarter.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:09pm

They have no kicker anyway so does it really matter?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:08pm

Ravens finally playing well on offense away from home. Looks like if Flacco gets time he's hitting all the throws. Of course Oher and Osemele aren't great OT's, but the Redskins pass rush looks pretty weak so far.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Lance :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:10pm

General question: I hear a number of QBs use "White 80" in their cadence. Usually, it seems, in the place of the old school "Down" in the sequence "Down-Set-Hut!". And I've even heard Romo call out "Yellow 80".

Does this have significance? That is, does "White 80" (or "Yellow 80") mean something in particular? If so, what? And moreover, how do so many different teams use it? Is it just proliferation from a single OC? And if so, who? And how did it spread?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:16pm

It's the takeout order for the linemen.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:21pm

A local radio host (former CU QB and short-time NFL backup Joel Klatt) said that every QB has at least one "dead" color and at least one "live" color. Anything said after the dead color means nothing. So when it's used in the way you were discussing, the dead color snap count in intended to either draw the defense offsides. Then when he wants to actually initiate the snap, he would need to check into a live color.
I'm probably not explaining that correctly... But the general idea is in there somewhere.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Lance :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:27pm

That makes sense-- in high school we had a "live" word and anything else was meaningless. It just seems odd that so many people use "White" and "80" so it seems like that expression has some common origin.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:55pm

Are you somewhere in Colorado also? Awesome! I always thought Klatt was a smart player, exactly the kind of guy CU doesn't have anymore post-Hawkins

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:09pm

Yep. I live in Lafayette.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:26pm

Cool, Colorado Springs here

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by JIPanick :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 9:57pm

Colo. Springs, representing.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:02pm

Hey let's watch the games somewhere next week. Where do you like to go? Meadow Muffins? Kelly O'Brien's?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by JIPanick :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:56pm

I usually watch from home, but it might be cool to get together for the early slate next week. Pick your favorite establishment.

154
Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Red (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 9:37pm

Small world, I live in Louisville. It would be funny if we knew each other.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:45pm

It would be a strange coincidence. I've been in that basic area for most of my life, I worked at the movie theater in Louisville for about 15 years.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:05pm

Jeebus. I simply can't follow a thought through to the end today. I meant to say "either draw the defense offsides or get them to tip their hand regarding rush or coverage."
I cannot brain today, I has the dumb.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Luigi (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:13pm

Ponder eludes a near sack by Briggs, pump fakes and throws deep to Aromashodu, as the ball hits the WR in the shoulder Tillman is launching himself on top of the receiver. How on Earth that is not PI ? He literally tackled the WR before the ball even arrived and hit his shoulder. And more: Tillman never turned back to look at the ball.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:21pm

If the pass has hit the reciever PI is off.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Luigi (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:26pm

I thought Tillman hit the WR before the ball hit his shoulder, I might need to see that one again!

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:31pm

Oh I didn't see the play - the way you described it made it sound like the ball actually hit the reciever.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:15pm

Looks like Washington didn't see the niners game last week, more option madness!

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:29pm

Shanahan punts from midfield facing 4th-and-2 with 0:50 or so to go. Seems like a mistake.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Luigi (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:47pm

That looked like a mistake to me too.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:50pm

I disagree. The last thing they need is to let the Ravens burn DeAngelo Hall and get into scoring range again

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:53pm

That certainly counts against going for it, bui I still think it's a (slight) mistake.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Luigi (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:30pm

Ponder is so bad... how good would the Vikings be with AP and a decent QB

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:35pm

Alex Henery on a 23 straigh makes streak doinks a 58-yarder and misses. It had PLENTY of leg in what John Lynch calls a humid day i Tampa.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Lance :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:41pm

What's with the Cowboys kicking those worm-burner kicks?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:45pm

Panthers 23 Falcons 0

Um, Falcons fans? This should be very upsetting.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Ryan D. :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:20pm

The 2nd half collapse is starting for the Panthers D.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 3:57pm

The Cowboys've got to lead the league in most 12-men-on-field penalties. And delay of game too.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:12pm

Cutlers second pick-6 of the day. Yuck.

Quick, somebody tell the Vikings they are helping the Packers.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:31pm

Not necessarily. The Packers have to play games in both Chicago and Minnesota yet.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:20pm

The Ravens defense is doing a great job containing RGIII when he tries to run the ball. Every time he runs for space, it seems like the defense collapses in immediately to stop him before he makes a big gain.

He got just enough to set up a 49-yard FG though.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Lance :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:22pm

Has Billeck been watching the game he's calling? With about 5 minutes left in the 3rd, he says that the CIN DL is starting to finally put pressure on Romo. Uh, hello-- Romo's been getting KILLED all game LONG.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Lance :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:23pm

Dallas punting has been horrible today. Well, all season. But really bad today.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:23pm

Flacco is doing everything he can in the second half to lose this game for the Ravens.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:31pm

Fair catch interference penalty called on Redskins. Replay shows that Redskin player didn't touch Jacoby Jones. Can interference still be called under these circumstances?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:39pm

I think there is supposed to be a 1 yard bubble around the returner that the defender can't go in. But it didn't seem like the Redskin player was even that close.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:53pm

Griffin runs for three yards, Bernard Pollard whacks him helmet to helmet. Griffin immediate starts whining to the officials and pointing to his head. Umm, he should probably read the rule book to find out when he is protected.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Anger...rising :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:49pm

For instance, when he's sliding, as he was on that play?

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by Anonymous3 (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 11:24pm

Pollard causes injuries to key players at a suspiciously high rate. I wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt on any play.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:55pm

Marshall eclipsing 100 receptions. How long does he have to play to overtake Rices record? 12. Marshall is 28 years old.

Even though passing is going up up up, Rice is still totally out of reach. Any position GOAT and it's not close.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:59pm

To be clear that was Rices total receptions record.

Most 100+ yards seasons is a three-way tie between Rice, Harrison and Welker at 4 each.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by 'nonymous (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:57pm

Chargers get a TD by recovering what was possibly a forward pass. (I think it probably was a forward pass, as did the announcers and most of the players, apparently.)

They let the play run, so that they could review it; but then they decided it was inconclusive. I don't know what effort the referee put into the review, but CBS sure didn't try to figure out what really happened. They only showed a helpful angle twice, and never zoomed in or froze the picture to analyze the ball's path.

Why should we be so happy saying it was inconclusive? How can there be so many plays where experts (announcers and referees) look at a replay over an over and come away saying they don't really know what happened or how to apply the rules to what they saw? It won't change the outcome of this game, but this call was 7 points in an NFL game, which is a pretty big deal. There is an obligation to make the effort to determine what really happened, and I don't think it occurred this time or many other times. (In fact, applying the technology used to draw the 1st down line would really quickly give a conclusive answer to this and many other questions.)

It really should be a scandal to blithely regard a play like this as inconclusive.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 4:59pm

That RG3 leg injury looked gnarly. I thought torn MCL for sure but it looks like he's ok?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:02pm

Looked like a hyper-extended knee to me.

Now he's leaving the field again.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:03pm

Griffin is in a LOT of pain.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by bengt (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:03pm

Steelers should have gone for two, right? With six minutes to go, they can't expect to score three times, methinks. Desperation would dictate the necessity to convert three conversions.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by bengt (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:51pm

Tomlin just explained that he didn't want to give away his two pointer plays at that time. Hmmm. When you are down 17 instead of 16, how could you end up needing even one conversion?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:54pm

That sounds totally stupid. Tomlin can't use a regular 3rd and short play? Or come up with a new play to try? What a weird way to think.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Mash Wilson :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 6:12pm

I saw that and I'm pretty sure he was saying "I considered the game over at that point" in so many words. Obviously you're not allowed to come right out and say that.

And I think he's kind of right there. Not because of not wanting to show the league their 4th-and-2 playbook, that's stupid, but because it's really not worth risking Roethlisberger getting injured even worse than he already is trying to chase a 1% chance at a miracle win. Roethlisberger should not be playing. He should be on IR.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by DRohan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:04pm

The Steelers score a TD to make it 34-16...and they kick the PAT to get within 17. This is all too common throughout the league. Are they even trying to think it through?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:05pm

Wow. That's really bad math there.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:06pm

Kirk Cousins makes a big boy throw. 2pt attempt comming up.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Caps (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:08pm

And Cousins ties up the game with a QB draw on the two-point conversion. Wow!

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:08pm

Spreading the field on goal line QB draw is an underrated playcall.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:26pm

Especially with the designated running QB on the bench. I had a feeling they'd run something like that, but the Ravens didn't!

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by RickD :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:09pm

Ravens don't even try to score with nearly 30 seconds on the clock. Why do teams settle for overtime? Are they so terrified of turnovers?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:10pm

As a Broncos fan and a Shanahan fan I'm probably rooting harder for Washington than any non Broncos team this year.

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by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:12pm

Failed on-side attempt i Minnesota. That'd be so much more fun if it was 4th-and-15. I'm not saying it's a better solution, but it's certainly the more entertaining solution.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:12pm

Kirk Cousins can play! Amazing performance off the bench!

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:19pm

What kind of QB is he?

I'm kind of working on a theory that you should have a backup that's completely different in style from your starter. If he comes in to relieve the defense has to reset. If he takes over for full games the defense will have no tape to prepare with.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:40pm

I don't think there's much difference between Cousins and, say, Andy Dalton (Dalton's LCF was 1,600, Cousins' was 1,300). I felt Cousins and Weeden and Tannehill were all on the same level in terms of potential. Foles was just a notch below that, and Osweiler several below Foles. I say this based on watching full games by all of them on youtube--there's a ton of great college footage to scout young QBs on youtube.

Your theory has merit, if the rest of the team/their OC is versatile enough to pull it off. There's also merit in finding a backup QB with a similar skillset, with the idea you can plug the new guy in and the offense won't miss a beat. Who knows which way is better. It probably doesn't matter as long as the new guy can be effective.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 8:10pm

I think Tannehill has so much more upside than those others. Even without his running ability he has come so far in two and a half seasons. He's developed from a talented mess into a pretty solid looking young qb.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:17pm

John Lynch calling the announcer "partner" is annoying the heck out me.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:19pm

I don't think the Ravens special teams will be rated quite as highly this week after that punt return.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:22pm

It's just heartbreaking when you one elite unit (probably) costs you the game.

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by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:41pm

Well the Raven D played poorly throughout (Kirk Cousins!), and the offense (especially Flacco) wet the bed for most of the second half and in OT. Its like he's never seen a blitz before. So I don't think the ST play costs them the game, their one bad play happened to be in OT.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:56pm

I disagree, I thought the Ravens D played well throughout the game, especially in harassing RGIII. Without using a spy as far as I could tell, every time Griffin looked to run, the Ravens D was there to prevent any big gains. I also don't remember any defense getting so much pressure or so many sacks on him this year.

The end of the game was less a case of the Ravens D playing poorly, and more a case of Cousins playing great.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 6:03pm

Well the Redskins did average 4.9 per rush and 8 yards net per pass, averaging out to 6.4 yards per play. If the Ravens played that well over the course of the season, they would be the worst D in the league. I guess the standard of what is considered good defense by the Ravens has really slipped. They contained Griffin's running, but not Morris nor the passing game.

And Cousins did make two good passes, that's true. But if a defense isn't ready for a QB draw on a two point conversion, there's no excuse.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:34pm

Is Jake Long injured?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:38pm

Apparently he's on IR with a torn triceps.

Aldon Smith just completely pancaked his backup, Jonathan Martin.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Mike Y :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:41pm

I think the Bears' playoff odds just went from 82% to 0%.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 5:51pm

I can't remember any starting QB to have as many sub-100-yard passing games as Christian Ponder. Wow, has he regressed from earlier in the year.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Luigi (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 6:00pm

Ponder is in the Brandon Weeden program, he will be average in say 8 years...

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by DRohan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 6:20pm

He needs to go play a few years of minor league ball to prepare.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 6:05pm

Worst special teams play of the year by a Dolphins player. He downs the ball at the 4 on a punt and casually strolls onto the endzone line for a touchback.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 6:41pm

Cardinals are really vomiting all over the place in Seattle. They should try to sneak away to the airport at halftime.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 6:52pm

...I am being reminded why the Cardinals felt the desire to try out Lindley in the first place.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 7:19pm

Kyle Orton, Jason Campbell, Chad Henne, Drew Stanton, Matt Flynn, Matt Hasslebeck, and Sean Hill (plus next year: Alex Smith)

QBs who could probably look like all-pros playing for Arizona

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 8:11pm

Not behind that line they wouldn't. For example, off the top of your head name as many of the five that are starting right now

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 9:16pm

Never mind. I didn't realize how many of Seattle's points were D/ST.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by apbadogs :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 8:08am

Hard to believe...the Cardinals beat the Patriots...this year.

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by apbadogs :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 8:09am
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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 6:42pm

Why is Josh Cribbs on the Cleveland punt return team but not as their punt returner? Is this a new development?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 6:45pm

In a slugfest like MIA-SF a muffed punt is just a killer.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by ammek :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 7:07pm

Ditto for a slugfest like SEA-ARI.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Anonymous- (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 7:34pm

What is the most fantasy points ever scored by a defense? Is Seattle getting there?

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by ticttoc (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 11:46pm

Not sure what a record would be, some leagues have a pretty lenient scoring but in a CBS league Seattle Def got me 39

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by duh :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 7:44pm

I'm only watching redzone but the roughing the passer call against the niners sure seemed pretty borderline.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 7:54pm

Thought Kaepernick might take a knee at the 1 there so the Niners could knee out the clock. But all those with SF -10.5 are glad he went into the endzone.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 8:12pm

As a niner fan I couldn't care less.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 9:15pm

Am I the only one morbidly fearing another Giants/Patriots Super Bowl this year?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Joshua Northey (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 9:48pm

Why morbidly fearing? They are two good teams with a lot of recent tradition who have recently played two very exciting and competitive super bowls?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 9:54pm

Obvious hyperbole, but I'd much prefer to see some different teams competing in February.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by JIPanick :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 9:58pm

One good team and one horrendously lucky average team, more like.

If the Giants go the Super Bowl again I will be extremely upset (unless the opponent is the Broncos). Pats I would be OK with.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:04pm

Giants are above average but also match up very well against the Pats, unfortunately.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:05pm

If the Giants go to the super bowl again, I'm not watching. If the Pats go, I'll watch, but I'm rooting against them as hard as I can.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Red (not verified) :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:57am

Agreed. If the Giants went 14-2 and put together a legitimately dominating season, I'd have no problem with them being in the Super Bowl again. But if they squeak into the playoffs at 9-7 and go on another miracle run, I will be thoroughly aggravated. I don't think I could handle the media/fan hyberbole over Eli Manning being a 3-time SB champion.

As much as people dislike the Patriots (me included), I respect them for being a model organization over the last decade, and for being consistently good every single year. If they win another SB, they will most certainly deserve it, and I will tip my cap to Belichick and Brady for their continued excellence.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 9:50pm

Snow day!

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by DRohan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:09pm

Do the Packers think they have the day off?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:08pm

Man, how dumb can a player be to do a group celebration these days. Everyone knows the rule at this point, right? Only Detroit Lions I guess, and KC Chiefs when they played the Steelers. Maybe its a prime time thing.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:26pm

The Lions are the most undisciplined team in the league. I'm looking forward to seeing what creative way they can come up with to lose this one.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:26pm

Right on cue. Lol.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Guest789 :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:09pm

Ugh, this is the Giants game all over again.

-----

“Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be.”

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by DisplacedPackerFan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 11:14pm

While the D has not been good (turn overs aside), this is not the same as the Giants game. That was a case of giving up 7 or so big plays. This has been lots of short to mid plays. It's been played closer, just not well enough. Different type of breakdown. This is easier to recover from than just not being anywhere close to the play like happened too frequently in the NY game.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:27pm

Stafford gifts the Packers a defensive TD and it's a game again.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Go pats (not verified) :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:28pm

I had a question, on the highlights of the steelers-chargers game I noticed Big Ben wears a glove on his throwing hand. Does he always do this, I never noticed before. I have always seen a QB with a glove on the non throwing hand but not on the throwing hand. Would it not be hard to have a "feel" for the ball with a glove on?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by DRohan :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:37pm

Pretty common for him to do so when it's cold.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 10:38pm

I think Big Ben has been wearing that glove on for the past few years at least. I think some QBs like it and some don't.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 11:44pm

Quarterbacks wearing gloves has become much more common as we move away from the days when the old school commentators would criticise a passer for wearing gloves like they did with Jimmy MacMahon. Kurt Warner started wearing gloves full time and I remember Troy Aikman trying a modern pair of gloves on and saying that he'd have worn them every game if they'd have been that good in his day. If you think about it, running backs wear gloves, receivers wear gloves, defensive backs wear gloves and linebackers wear gloves because it improves their grip but quarterbacks don't? What's wrong with that picture?

P.S. I simply cannot agree with the sentiment behind your moniker for at least eight days. Go Niners!

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Go pats (not verified) :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:11am

Karl,

believe it or not but my two favourite teams are the 49ers and Pats, have been a 49er fan for over 30 years. I also used live in the UK.

I do remember Warner wearing gloves now but it still seems odd. I am no pro QB but it just feels strange. I guess you get used to it.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by JonFrum :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 11:10pm

On the Rogers running TD, it looked like the Lions defensive player was blocking against the Packers receiver at the sidelines. The Lions player actually moved away from Rogers as Rogers came running towards the end zone. Very strange.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 11:17pm

Yeah I noticed that. I can only assume that the Packers receiver (Finley I think) was selling the fact that Rodgers was still looking to pass, and the defender was intent on covering him and never even bothered to turn around and notice that Rodgers was running. Bad play whatever.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 11:18pm

Double post

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 11:49pm

Someone might want to tell the Lions that even the Packers will run the ball occasionally.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 11:50pm

Wow, the Packers really shoved it down the Lions' throat on that drive.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Sun, 12/09/2012 - 11:52pm

FWIW, the way Collinsworth and company were talking earlier, you'd think it was really cold out. Anyone who has grown up where it snows knows when it snows, it's usually right about 32F outside. And it's not even snowing that bad. The flakes are really big. But the street scene that was shown earlier showed there isn't that much snow on the ground.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:00am

Why are the Lions punting with 7:20 on the clock, down by a TD? Is this a realistic path to winning the game?

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by Guest789 :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:05am

7 minutes is more than enough time to get the ball back. It's only a one-possession game.

-----

“Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be.”

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:28am

By "realistic" I'm accounting for the weakness of the Lions' defense relative to the Packers offense.

And then there's the punt return, which made the punt nearly worthless.

The Lions could have played that series with the plan of playing all four downs aggressively. Then, instead of a long pass on 3rd and 7, they could have planned to get 7 yards over two plays.

But NFL coaches are deeply wedded to punting. Even when down by 7 late in a game to a team with an explosive offense.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 4:21am

Not saying you're wrong, but with +7 minutes left, they're going to have to put the defensee on the field eventually. And down 7 they need a stop from the defense eventually.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:11am

Earlier today the Saints punted on 4th & 7 down 16 with 9 minutes on the clock. Yes, the Saints, with a future HOF QB, probably the worst defence in the league and whose coverage teams had been gashed all day.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:30am

Yeah, I remember that one, too.

A punt like that sends the message "we've already given up."

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by DisplacedPackerFan :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:03am

So Barclay can run block pretty well, possibly better than Bulaga. He still needs help in pass block but when Lang gets healthy, but him back at guard and take EDS off the field again. Should keep Rodgers from needing to scramble as much. Green seems to finally be the runner I was hoping for (I do think the knee injury just took longer to recover from than expected) and Harris looks to be an actual change of pace back (5-7 and quick). I can live with this offense. If teams want to stay in 2 and 3 deep shells you need to be able to run, or hit the short mid passes. Now I realize that Minn and Det don't have the best run defenses in the world, but I'm starting to believe in a running game.

I also can't wait to get Matthews back. Stafford has had all day to throw, and the weather has been the best provider of "pressure". Nick Perry was looking like an OK pass rusher before going on IR too. I'm not happy about the state of the pass rush, but I'm not sure of any team that would have much of a rush if they lost their top two rushers (and if Perry wasn't #2 I would buy that Woodson was).

Now they just need to have another clock chewing drive, because I'm still worried about this game.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:10am

The Texans, Giants, Lions and Bears could all afford to lose a couple of pass rushers but that is pretty much a list of the deepest fronts in the game.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Guest789 :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:15am

Damn that was dirty by Fairley. Really hard to respect the Lions sometimes...

-----

“Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be.”

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:21am

Worthy just got Stafford back.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:24am

The Pack have become a pretty dirty bunch, walking over prone players, shoving, twisting guys' legs in the pile. Like a decaffeinated version of a Jeff Fisher team.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Guest789 :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:26am

What??? That's the first I've heard of that.

-----

“Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be.”

213
Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Ender (not verified) :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 7:46am

yeah I've never heard the Packers being dirty either. Not even once in the past 2 or 3 years have I heard a single comment about it, so I'm doubting it is true.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:28am

That sounds a bit overblown. It just looks like a slightly chippy game between division rivals to me.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:38am

In reply to you and 789: I never used to think that the Pack were like that but when I see them this year they always seem to be trying some crap. It's never blatant stuff but they're doing every little thing to antagonise the opponent in an attempt to draw the response. Remember the Suh stomp? He claimed it was in response to the Packers' linemen untying his shoe laces, I'm talking about crap like that, a particular favourite is to step over a guy when he's trying to get up, they do that all the time.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:38am

Seriously? Man, you're better than that.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:43am

I'm saying what I see. I think a distasteful element has crept in.

I would emphasise that I'm talking about the gamesmanship side of things rather than anything that could injure anyone but I'd still rather not see it at all from anyone, including my team.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:39am

Duplicate post

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:19am

WTF is CJ doing on the bench? I'm a Packers fan and I don't get this.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:20am

The Lions dinking and dunking the way down the field down 10 with 4 minutes left. Surely its time to go vertical to Calvin a couple of times in succession?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:22am

Apparently DPI doesn't count on Green Bay defensive backs in Wisconsin, roughing the passer too.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:24am

I'd agree with the roughing. But if it's the play I saw, the defensive player has the right to hit a player within 5 yards of the line and anything after that was pretty borderline. I've seen worse in this game by both teams.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:26am

We're not remotely talking about the same play.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:24am

Another 4th down pick that hurts the intercepting team.

edit: but overturned on review.

Probably first time home crowd cheers the officials for overturning an interception by the home team.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:26am

It would be nice if the replay rules weren't so rigid, and the officials could just apply common sense in that situation and save wasting everybody's time.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Guest789 :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:29am

I don't know if I trust the officials' common sense...

-----

“Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be.”

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:35am

It feels like the Lions gave up in the second quarter, when they lost the fumble returned for a TD. Even though they have more first downs, more yardage, and only one more turnover, they've been exuding a lack of confidence throughout the second half.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Hummingbird Cyborg :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 12:45pm

Anyhow, it'll be funny if the Cardinals game was enough to put Seattle at #1 DVOA.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by SFC B :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 9:45pm

It's 2:30 AM here in Germany and I just watched Foster gash NE for 11 yards to have it called back.. And then get the 15 yard First Down. Tempting start and I hope it justifies the 2:20 wake-up to watch.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by SFC B :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:08pm

Ugh. Houston forces a fumble from the NE RUB at the goal line, but fail to recover it. Next play Hernandez TD. To add to the misery my opponent in my competitive FF league has Hernandez and already had a 20 point lead. Double ugh.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by SFC B :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:11pm

The Patriots are just destroying the Texans through the air. They're not getting much pressure on Brady and he's got the time to just find the guy who is wide open.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:14pm

A Brandon Lloyd sighting!

So far, everybody looks focused. Should be a good game.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:24pm

Texans need a drive here or this will quickly get out of hand.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by SFC B :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:24pm

Texans get absolutely jobbed on 3rd & 10. Daniel Manning gets flagged for PI when he briefly runs in front of Welker on a pass that was about 10 yards past the receiver. Puts the Patriots deep into Texans territory. They score three plays later making it 21-0.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Shawnqa800720 (not verified) :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:31pm

Agreed. I'm a Pat's fan, but hate BS calls even when in my teams favor. I don't like excuses for losses or wins, but crap calls by the refs can be a legit complaint.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by SFC B :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:37pm

That one call won't be an excuse for Houston being held to 0 points. The Patriots are dominating both lines. It's only a matter of time until something else breaks for the Texans.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:42pm

It was about 10 yards beyond the receiver because the defender ran into the receiver and kept him from getting to the ball.

If he'd gone full speed, he might have gotten within five yards of the ball!

Seriously, this continues the trend of refs really not caring about "catchability" when throwing the DPI flag.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Led :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 11:21pm

It was ticky-tack contact and Welker flopped. They should withhold the flag on that basis alone.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Athelas :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:29pm

OK. Vince Wilfork is a beast.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:43pm

That was quite a play when 76 for the Texans was "blocking" him by standing behind him, wrapping his arms around Wilfork's torso, and pulling backwards.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:47pm

Wonder if the refs got the wrong number on that OPI call.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by SFC B :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:52pm

So, down 21, the Texans have to be in 4 down territory for most of the remaining part of this game right?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:57pm

I would think so, at least as long as they are that far behind, and not in the shadow of their own goalposts.

I'm impressed that Kubiak isn't timid about going for it on 4th down.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by SFC B :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 11:00pm

Not that they're doing much with that 4th down.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by Pepp (not verified) :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 10:56pm

Gruden just announced that Kubiak "is an old school guy who fills out his charts by hand. He doesn't make Excel sheets or anything like that." So nothing like KUBIAK I guess.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 11:00pm

Love that phrase "playing the ball at its highest point."

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by PatsFan :: Mon, 12/10/2012 - 11:50pm

An odd game. Aside from one lucky bomb, NE offense has done nothing for almost two full quarters. Thank goodness they had a good first quarter.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Tue, 12/11/2012 - 12:04am

Wacky fumble luck on Monday night two weeks in a row! Though I still think the Redskins' fumble would rate ahead of this one on the luck scale.

Good thing for the Pats that Brandon Lloyd was standing around with nothing better to do than wait for JJ Watt to swat a ball his way.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by PatsFan :: Tue, 12/11/2012 - 12:10am

You're down by 28 and you punt on 4-and-1 from your own 40? Booooooo, Houston, booooo!

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Tue, 12/11/2012 - 12:15am

They seem to have decided to coast the rest of the game knowing that a 3-0 finish gets them the #1 seed.

I think the Colts will beat them at least once.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Tue, 12/11/2012 - 12:17am

Would it be safe to assume that the Seahawks won't be getting that top position in DVOA after all?

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Danger (not verified) :: Tue, 12/11/2012 - 12:33am

We'll have to see what DVOA says but I think those two touchdowns are going to hurt them...

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR :: Tue, 12/11/2012 - 12:35am

The 2nd TD won't hurt them much, as DVOA discounts garbage time TDs.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Tue, 12/11/2012 - 12:40am

The Texans are an 11-win team. I'm sure opponent adjustments will help quite a bit.

There were 7 points ahead of Seattle coming into this weekend. Yes, the Seahawks had a historic win against a -9.4 DVOA team. But the Pats looked very good against an 18.6 DVOA team.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR :: Tue, 12/11/2012 - 12:18am

Well it's nice to know I can relax these last 7 1/2 minutes.

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Re: Week 14 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Tue, 12/11/2012 - 1:31am

Well... Crap. That does not bode well. I thought the Pats would win, but yikes.

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