Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

15 Dec 2010

Week 15 Open Discussion Thread

Talk about the Week 15 games here!

Posted by: Bill Barnwell on 15 Dec 2010

275 replies , Last at 21 Dec 2010, 12:07pm by FireOmarTomlin

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 8:57pm

I'd rather see the Chiefs than the Chargers. Go Niners!

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by BigCheese :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 9:38pm

That was a ridiculous TD catch by Jackson. Looked to be a ball that favored the CB and he not only pulled it in (or rather used his body to let it come to him), but then broke away and scored.

- Alvaro

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by BigCheese :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 9:40pm

Matt Millen is an idiot. The SF Offense matches up particularly well with the SD defense because... they're young? WTF?

- Alvaro

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Rich Arpin (not verified) :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 9:59pm

All this commentary leads me to think that I could broadcast a game on ustream or something, but when I thought about it, I think it's an extremely difficult thing to do well.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Raiderjoe :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:04pm

Millen just saidi "that's 235 vs 235 and 235 won". Did a little too much good tkakcling when with Raiders. Too muchh screws loose in head.

He talkign about Coopper trying to takcle Dixon.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:13pm

Norv is challenging a TD run by Alex Smith when Smith ran straight into the pylon. But apparently Smith may have had the ball an inch on the out-of-bound side of the pylon when he hit it.
So Theismann says it's a great challenge. But really, is it?
Best case, the 49ers have the ball at the 2 inch line on 4th down. Is this really a good use of a challenge?
...
and yes, the 49ers have the ball at the 6 inch line.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:15pm

OK, it worked out for the Chargers because the 49ers don't know how to manage a goal-line drive. Hint: don't let the defender into the backfield.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Jeremy (not verified) :: Fri, 12/17/2010 - 9:22am

It's one thing to argue this when the result of a successful challenge is four tries from the 1. When the result is one try (or potentially even a field goal attempt), I don't see how you argue it.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Rich Arpin (not verified) :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:15pm

I like going for it on 4th, I don't like the call

9
Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:20pm

Wow. Justin Smith shoves the umpire. (*facepalm*)

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Buh-bye Mr. Smith. Out of the game.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by morganja :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:27pm

Unbelievable. Totally unprofessional ego trip by a crappy official. Another humiliation for the NFL refs this year. When are they going to fire these egomaniacs and get some decent people to ref these games?

11
Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by BigCheese :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:32pm

I had to step out. What happened?

- Alvaro

12
Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:36pm

I agree. Nonsense call.

13
Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:38pm

No, shoving the official out of the way is completely intolerable. Refs were correct to throw Smith out of the game. It's not even a judgment call.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by morganja :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:39pm

This idiot ref puts his forearm and elbow into Justin Smith pushing him a couple yards. Justin Smith pushes the idiot refs shoulder to get the refs elbow and arm out of his side. Idiot ref totally loses his temper, throws the flag, and then stats going after Justin Smith talking shit. Totally unprofessional and stupid behavior by a ref who thinks he is the most macho guy on the field.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:45pm

You're not getting it.

If players are jawing and shoving, part of the job of the officials is to control the situation. If the ref starts to restrain a player, it's the player's job to let him. It's not like the ref is just some random guy on the field. He's the ref!!! (Well, umpire actually in this case.)

Justin Smith is the idiot here. This isn't a random bar somewhere. It's a football field in an NFL game. If an official is pulling you away from somebody you're yelling at, and you shove the official out of the way, you've just earned an early shower.

How is this hard to understand? In what professional sport are players allowed to push officials around?

20
Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by morganja :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:57pm

He didn't shove the ref away. He pushed the refs arm and elbow out of his ribcage. The refs job is to control the situation, NOT push players around and provoke the situation.

I have no idea what you saw or what you are thinking, but the ref was not PULLING the player away. He was pushing the player and grinding his arm into the guys ribcage, an especially painful sensation. The ref clearly lost his composure, acted unprofessionally, and got a vital player kicked out of the game over the refs own ego.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 11:05pm

"Grinding his arm into his ribcage." "An especially painful sensation."

This is becoming quite a fantasy.

If we cannot agree on the facts, then there's little point to discussion.

If you want to argue about push/pull semantics, that's really a waste of time. I'm watching the game and I know what happened.

The umpire (not the referee) lost his composure when Smith pushed him out of the way. Because, well, players aren't allowed to do that. Again, how is this hard to understand? Your tone continues to argue the point that it's fine and dandy for the players to treat the officials with contempt.

Good luck with that attitude. I suggest you try it out with the bailiff if you ever have a court appearance.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by morganja :: Fri, 12/17/2010 - 12:35am

I see why we are disagreeing on the facts, I watched the game on TV and rewound the incident several times to see what happened. You must be listening to it on the radio, or maybe getting updates by telegraph. Here are the facts that you are disputing:

1) the ref ran over to Justin Smith, placed his arm and elbow into Smith's ribcage and pushed, using his leverage to force Smith backwards;
2) the ref continued to push into Smith's ribcage with his arm and elbow until Smith pushed the refs shoulder to dislodge the arm and elbow digging into his body;

If you can't see that, maybe you should try cleaning the speaker in your radio. I don't see how you can dispute these facts.

Here is another little fact to dwell on. These are NFL refs, not police officers.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave0 :: Fri, 12/17/2010 - 2:31am

disclaimer: i didn't see it.

if the ref pushes you, you go where he's pushing you to. if you push the ref, you get tossed. it's really a simple obvious policy that everyone except justin smith and morganja understand.

Here is another little fact to dwell on. These are NFL refs, not police officers.

either that's a joke or you've got the situation totally backwards. next time a cop comes up to you and starts pushing you around for no reason feel free to defend your rights or at least get them on camera. these guys are playing a game of organized football under the auspices of the national football league and according to the rules you don't make aggressive contact with a referee, period.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by dbt :: Fri, 12/17/2010 - 2:32am

Justin Smith played the fool three times. Once, when he got into a jawing match after a play when his team was actually doing well (3rd and 15!). Two when the Referee got in his face and he didn't get back in the huddle and get ready for the next play, and three when the umpire clearly was pushing him away from a stupid confrontation and he swung his arm at someone without knowing who he was swinging at.

He deserved to get ejected and the fine he'll certainly get. Just stupid stupid stupid. And in the wrong.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Raiderjoe :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:57pm

wusah j. smith was smarter and staye din game but official did write thing. Players cant toich officials or push them or kick them and stuff liek that. Very bad thing for players to do

49ers still ahve time to come back. no need to worry yet butt did open up another bottle of Bigfoot just in case. Porbably would have done that if 49ers up 16-0 so what is diffenenrce? no differnce really

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:42pm

It's all happening here. Just a totally embarrassing drop by the Niners linebacker on a Rivers floater which would have given them the ball on the Chargers 20. Just awful. How can he drop that?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:42pm

It seems unfair to break out the powder blue unies on the Niners.

17
Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by morganja :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:43pm

Is Joe Theisman the stupidest commentator in sports? At any level? What's the deal with him announcing games?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:52pm

Yes. Next question. The guy wasn't even good doing commentary on "American Gladiators."

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by morganja :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:59pm

Since the ref incident, the game is not even worth watching anymore. I think I will be joining most of the people around the country turning it off. Too bad they can't get the American Gladiator refs. They were awesome.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 11:02pm

Jeez it must be frustrating being a 49ers fan. They have talent, but just seem to do boneheaded stuff and whiff on all the big plays. It was almost a shock that a Chargers receiver didn't come down with that hail mary at the end of that half.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 11:07pm

It's not enough in the NFL to have potential. The 49ers are clearly not making the leap to the level of being a consistent winner. It's not one thing; they just don't have "it" in many different ways.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 11:13pm

Case in point: 85-yard kickoff return nullified by facemask penalty.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Raiderjoe :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 11:13pm

oooh c;'mon. grabbing the facemaSK . gINN LOST A TD BECCEAUSE OF THAT,. DUMB 4OERS

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Raiderjoe :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 11:16pm

even if Charegsr win this game, they sgitll going to lose last 2. No way going to win at Cincinanti. OHuio in december going to be tough for Cahgers. then last ghame in the demnver diaphragm. Charegrs goign to lose that one too. Will be liek Broncos super bwol.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 11:24pm

Second time tonight the Chargers make a first down on a juggled catch because the 49ers are not close enough to the receiver to disrupt him while ball is being juggled.

And then there are the dropped INTs...

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 11:27pm

I don't understand how a pro football player can drop that ball that Brooks did in the first half. It's just not acceptable in any way.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Raiderjoe :: Thu, 12/16/2010 - 11:55pm

domnt care anymore. is there some othetr s[orts on to eatch?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by greybeard :: Fri, 12/17/2010 - 2:06am

The entire 49ers team played terrible today, especially offensive line and defensive backs. But it is all going to be all about Alex Smith tomorrow and the others would get away without much criticism.
I was hoping the short week would make it harder for Chargers to overcoach the 49ers. Seems like one day of preparation is good enough to figure out 49ers.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by commissionerleaf :: Fri, 12/17/2010 - 3:27pm

Smith wasn't even -that- bad. He was bad, but just ordinary Alex Smith totally-good-enough-to-hold-a-clipboard bad. You know. Kelly Holcomb bad. John Kitna bad. Unfortunately, the 49ers offensive line is actually awful, and the secondary has regressed substantially.

That said, the Chargers are one of the better teams in the league; only New England is playing at their level right now, and even New England is questionable. I would expect New Orleans or Atlanta to lose to San Diego on a neutral field.

Don't worry folks! It's only December! This is Norv, they'll turn back into pumpkins in January.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Scott C :: Sat, 12/18/2010 - 3:53am

The Chargers coaching staff started preparing the game plan for the 49'ers on Friday -- two days before the KC game. The game plan was installed on Monday.

Source: San Diego Union Tribune
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/sports/chargers/

Sorry, I can't seem to find the exact link.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by jay stokes (not verified) :: Fri, 12/17/2010 - 8:13pm

I guess FO OT not exactly pro-San Diego. Nothing inappropriate or mean, but it sure sounds like everyone was pulling for SF.

Look, I cringed when my Bolts signed Norv, and he has his many flaws (gets tight/risk averse in big games, horrid clock management, questionable challenges, bias to "establish the run" even when it cannot be done). That all said, it cannot be:

Chargers win = player talent
Chargers lose = Norv Turner

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Anonymously (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:55am

Isn't that often true, though? I don't watch a lot of Chargers games, but I remember the 2006 playoff game against the Patriots where they outplayed the Patriots and Tomlinson was unstoppable, but the Chargers still managed to lose. It seems like they underachieve with the talent they have, and some of that is on the coach.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by jay stokes (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 5:18pm

That is the knock on them. That playoff loss was under Schottenheimer and not Turner, and catalyzed bringing in Turner.

They do have talent: Rivers is great as is Gates. After those two, I don't see an "elite" player. Rivers has thrown to 17 different guys this season because of injuries and their Tolbert, a UFA, is their most consistent RB.

Through horrible ST, some really bad luck (like losing 16 of 20 fumbles) they are on the edge of the playoffs instead of the #1 seed (they had a soft schedule).

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by princeton73 (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 1:30pm

under Norv Turner, Chargers record
in Sept and Oct: 13-16
in Nov and Dec: 27-6

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Rocco :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 2:17pm

The refs missed David Garrard get hit helmet-to-helmet by Mathis. I'm stunned.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Rocco :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 2:25pm

More adventures in officiating- they flagged Aaron Francisco for a blow to the head on a receiver, but it didn't look like he actually hit the receiver in the head.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Anonymousse (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:47pm

They flagged for unnecessary roughness, for launching into a pile when receiver was already down. If he came in to tackle, and not left feet, there's no call.

That's a penalty to discourage the action, not for causing a bad result (not unlike reckless driving).

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Rocco :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:06pm

The problem is I'm pretty sure the refs said it was for making contact with the receiver's helmet. If the refs want to flag people for running into the pile late, then they should say that.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by nuk :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 2:28pm

Anyone understand why they gave JX another down?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Rocco :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 2:29pm

And it gets better- a flag was thrown on 3rd for the Jags, which the Colts stuffed. After the play, they picked up the flag and announced the play was to be replayed. It didn't look or sound like they stopped the play so I have no idea why they needed to replay it. The next attempt at 3rd down fails but Sims-Walker gets hurt in the process.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Anonymousse (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:37pm

The call was initially false start, that was somehow overturned. As a false start was called, there was no play.

The book to beat Jaguars - hit Garrard in the head. See 1st 3rd down conversion, Giants game in 2nd to last possession, Chiefs and Charger games.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by nuk :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 2:32pm

JX is 1-0 in 5th down conversions.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Crus :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 2:59pm

The Eagles have decided to stop teams having success against their awful red-zone defence by letting them score from outside the red-zone instead.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by CoachDave :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:04pm

Wow...this Mike Carey-led crew just flat out sucks.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by nuk :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:08pm

I usually don't feel like the refs are trying to screw my guys over, but it certainly seems that way today.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by bag (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:12pm

It sets a dangerous precedent. If I'm the ST coach, I'm tell my players to hit the receiver regardless of if he signals for a fair catch. Just completely level him while running full speed. If someone is going to "fake" a fair catch signal, that is the price you'll pay.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by nuk :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:17pm

Yep, I was thinking that might be worth the 15 yards.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by CoachDave :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:18pm

Exactly what I'm thinking...refs almost ALWAYS error on the side of blowing the whistle just to prevent that exact scenario.

Think about a punt returner, your head is up, your neck is exposed, you aren't looking at the hit...the potential for a horrible injury is very high.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by bag (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:21pm

Do the refs in any way signal a fair catch has been called? Are they supposed to blow the whistle when the player calls it? If not, then I see no way a player can actually recognize if they keep playing or not.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by CoachDave :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:36pm

No, I should clarify, they don't blow the whistle, but they (the ref, ST coaches, other players, etc.)typically will call out "catch" or "fair catch" or "hey"...some sort of audible signal to avoid the unecessary hit and the penality.

Technically it's the coverage's team responsibility to determine if the signal was made, but having played punt coverage before, it's a bit crazy out there and the help is appreciated and a good idea to help with player safety.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by bag (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:48pm

Thanks for the clarification. Like you said, its a mess out there and the difference between a hand being head level and above the head, its virtually impossible to tell.

Based on that, if I was the returner, I would always fake signal if I wanted to return it. When I did a real signal, I would always be prepared to take a hit. As a ST coach, I would tell my players to do the same.

Unfortunately, I just can't see a good solution other than having the officials be responsible for the signal.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Anonymousse (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:40pm

At what point did Thomas make a fair catch signal? I didn't see one.

Jags have been consistents aggressive in not calling the signal. However, since officials picked up a flag for tackling after an actual fair catch signal later in the game, I don't really think Colts can complain.

I thought make-up calls were frowned upon.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:18pm

He raised his hand to or maybe slightly above shoulder level and waved. There's absolutely no reason at all to do that if not to attempt to deceive, which is a penalty at worst or a fair catch at best.

They didn't pick up a flag for tackling after a signal, they threw a flag for an illegal block in the back, which shoved Smith into the receiver.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Stats are for losers (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:25pm

Seems like that's in the same category of unsportsmanlike conduct as simulating the snapcount on defense.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by johnmartinolive... :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:15pm

eagles cannot stop giants on 3rd and long today. Its actually a little ridiculous that the giants are running so much. I feel like they would be absolutely torching them if they would throw more often.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by nuk :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:22pm

No 'defenseless receiver' penalty for the head shot on Collie?

Poor guy.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Stats are for losers (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:27pm

Wasn't a head-shot so much as an attempt to rip his head off with the standard ball-stripping motion... but you'd at least expect a compensatory call after the fake fair catch.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Anonymousse (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:42pm

How are you supposed to tackle that? Didn't launch, didn't lead with head.

At some point, don't you have to blame the receiver/QB?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:16pm

Right. Totally Collie's fault for being a pussy.

My only problem with the play is that it makes the Colt offense easy to defend again. With him in there, they had hope. Now it's back to the shit show.

It annoyed everyone that they flagged Bethea for 15 on a legal hit without any injury and then did nothing on this one... but on review, it looked fine. Just unfortunate.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Anonymousse (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:29pm

So officials are supposed to wait to see if anybody is injured before deciding if there is a flag?

Wasn't Collie's previous concussion on essentially the same post pattern? And in a prior game, didn't Manning complete a deep post identical to the previous play's deep post that knocked somebody out? I'm not questioning anybody's drive/manhood/ability, just that at some point, you have to adjust the plays to the players.

Again, that hit was unfortunate and legal. If you want the refs to regulate bad outcomes, that will be much worse. I'd rather they make illegal the risky, unneeded hits, like launching at the QB and leading with the head.

Obviously, the refs were bad, because I walked away thinking the Jags were totally screwed by the refs, and obviously so did the Colts.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by aRX (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:29pm

THYE DIDN'T OVERTURN THAT!??!

...at some point in the offseason I need to review the definition of a 'catch', because I honestly don't know anymore....

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by tbwhite :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:31pm

The NFL is rapidly becoming unwatchable, it's clear even the officials don't have a common, shared understanding of the rules. Add to that the ridiculous number of injuries and it becomes hard to care anymore.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by tbwhite :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:56pm

Unwatchable. Yep that's what the last 8 minutes of the Eagles-Giants game were. God, I'm such a whiny little bitch.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:29pm

Utter BS call after a review, puts seven on the borad for te Giants. Eagles got absolutely screwed.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Arkaein :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:34pm

This is screwing the Packers playoff hopes just as bad.

I have little hope for Minnesota beating Chicago Monday night, but if the Eagles beat the Giants then GB controls its playoff destiny Even assuming a loss to the Patriots.

Unbelievable they got that call wrong on review. So Calvin Johnson didn't have a catch in week 1, but just now the Eagles did? Absurd.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by aRX (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:44pm

I was thinking of that play as I watched the ref say the call stood. Catch, to the ground, roll over, in one hand, place it down, "failure to complete the act of a catch". Catch, bobble, poked out of his hands by the defender before he takes half a step, catch-fumble.

If those two plays (along with a whole bunch of bad calls this year) don't serve as a clarion call to either re-educate the refs, or rewrite the rules to make what is or isn't a catch clearer, I don't know what will.

Or maybe it'll take a play like that happening at a crucial moment in the SB to finally wake them up :(

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:01pm

"I have little hope for Minnesota beating Chicago Monday night, but if the Eagles beat the Giants then GB controls its playoff destiny Even assuming a loss to the Patriots."

If all of this happens, how would GB still control its playoff destiny? The best the Packers could be is 10-6. Are you forgetting about Tampa Bay? If they win out, they would be 11-5. Even if Tampa Bay beats New Orleans, the Saints could still finish 11-5 or 12-4, and the Falcons already have 11 wins. So the Packers could be eliminated without even getting into a tiebreaker for the last wild card spot. Maybe you are assuming that Tampa Bay will be no better than 10-6. I haven't looked at whether the Packers would win a 2-way tiebereaker with Tampa Bay or a 3-way tiebreaker with Tampa Bay and the Giants.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Arkaein :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:53pm

Ah, you're right. I was running the simulations on ESPN's Playoff Machine and had Tampa down for one loss. If they win out they beat GB in the situations I've described. However I think TB's chances of doing so (ending at New Orleans) are very slim.

If GB beats the Giants it looks like they would win the tiebreakers against both the Giants and Buccaneers.

EDIT: actually, it's apparently a bit more complicated. Assuming the Giants hang on at this point, if the Eagles lose to Minny in week 16 or Dallas in week 17 then a 10-6 Bucs team would win the tiebreaker against the Packers, with the Eagles dropping out of the playoffs.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:09pm

Yeah, I figured you assumed Tampa Bay didn't win out. They just went to OT with Detroit now, and the Lions are close to field goal range already on the opening drive. We'll see what happens there. As for that last game against New Orleans, it's possible that the Saints' playoff position will already be locked up, in which case the Saints probably would rest Drew Brees. In that case, I think Tampa Bay probably would win that game.

EDIT: The Lions just won on a field goal in OT. So Tampa Bay can't finish better than 10-6.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Jovins :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:14pm

Also, the Eagles have tied the Giants, so you can't assume they hang on anymore.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:33pm

What the hell were the Eagles doing there? There was no point in making that pass in the first place with so little time on the clock and deep in your own end of the field.

Then the officials botched the call; it looked to me like it definitely was incomplete rather than a fumble. On the next play, a TD pass for the Giants makes it 24-3. So I guess the Eagles' notoriously poor clcok management isn't limited to costing them points on offense, it also can cost them points for the other team.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:36pm

The Cowboys have had six offensive possessions; they have 2 TDs, 2 FGs, one drive that ended on the Washington 1, and one short (35-yard) missed FG. A couple mitigating factors for the Redskins' defense: the Cowboys' average starting position for their first four drives was the Redskins' 36, thanks to a long kickoff return, two long punt returns, and a Sexy Rexy INT. Also, one of the Cowboys' TDs came after a really terrible Roughing the Passer call on Andre Carter extended the drive. (The Cowboys were already in FG position before the call, so they still probably would have come away with points on that drive.)

At the half, Grossman is 7/13 for 108 yards, 1 TD, and 1 INT. Most of his completions and yardage have come on screens, as well as one long pass to Mike Sellers on a wheel route. The pick may or may not have been Grossmans' fault; he was pressured on a blitz and threw it as if he were expecting Sellers to cut off his route in the flat, rather than turn upfield and run a wheel route. Normally you would expect receivers to cut their routes short on blitzes, but you also normally expect Rex to throw interceptions that are absolutely, positively 100% his fault.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by CoachDave :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:41pm

I agree (partially) with the above comment.

Officating in the NFL has become just terrible. These micro-focused technicality rules of what is a catch, what is a "defenseless reciever", what is a fair catch, what is holding and when it is called or not called...

I feel like about half of the time I have no idea what they heck they are calling out there because rather than call the penality based on the outcome of what happended, they are calling or not calling penalities based on some ridiculous technicality that has little or nothing to do with the outcome of the play.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by bag (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:53pm

How not to run the option, lession 1

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by bag (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 3:55pm

*lesson, not lession :)

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:04pm

If the Colts still played on old-school AstroTurf, then "Lesion 1" would have worked, too.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by nuk :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:02pm

I feel better about the refs now.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Pat Swinnegan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:22pm

Can someone explain that PI call on Kellen Winslow?!?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:27pm

Now two TDs in the WAS-DAL game have been scored on drives extended by questionable Roughing calls, one by each team.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:36pm

Desean Jackson fumbles on a deep completion, but is CLEARLY touched by a giant. Andy Reid simply lets the Giants run a play. Weird does not begin to describe this...

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:39pm

no way, he's "a GREAT coach"!

----------------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:50pm

He has built the most dominant franchise in the last decade of the NFC.

He onside kicks it!

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:23pm

LMAO @ Andy Reid. If the Eagles had a GREAT coach, then the Eagles would be 306-0 over the time of his tenure, rather than 118-71-1.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Rocco :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:28pm

In-game, he can be pretty shaky at times. That being said, it's hard to argue with his talent evaluation and the work he's done with QBs.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:39pm

Oh absolutely. But coaching is soo much more than what you do on sundays - we Broncos fans can attest to that.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:37pm

Is Andy Reid paying attention? Or are the coaches in the booth asleep? The Eagles' coaching staff has really let them down today.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by aRX (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:38pm

I don't know that he wins that challenge, but wtf is Andy saving his challenges for? Thats 2 iffy calls (Nicks(?) 3rd down catch) and he keeps the flag in his pocket again, down by 2 touchdowns...

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by johnmartinolive... :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:38pm

Wait..don't you have to be touched when down...not touched on the way down?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:39pm

No, touched on the way down makes you down by contact.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:38pm

hard to believe in 2010 we don't have a better camera angle than that for the Moore TD.

-----------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by johnmartinolive... :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:41pm

Wow..can't believe that wasn't challenged then. The guy in the booth has to say 'challenge that' if there is even a chance of it being overturned.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Independent George :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:46pm

Yeah - that's not on Reid. The HC has to trust in his guys in the booth on all review calls. This is one of those plays that gets put up on the jumbotron if it's played in Philly.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Pat Swinnegan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 4:58pm

It looks like the Rams are going to lose... this has got to be good for our chances of seeing a 7-9 team in the playoffs, yes?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:02pm

Absolutely.

Go Falcons!

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Jonadan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:23pm

We've got STL-SF and SEA-TB next week, and they finish the season playing each other. I think this is the perfect setup for a 6-8-1 team making the playoffs - though I'm hoping St Louis can find it in them to win both their games.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Jeff M. (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:33pm

I think you probably mean 6-9-1... though it would be pretty amazing if a team made the playoffs after a 15-game schedule.

On a more serious note, winner of the Rams-Seahawks Week 17 showdown now makes the playoffs regardless of what happens next week. If you're one of the coaches, would you rest your players? This a little different situation than we're used to with, say, the Colts in the last couple weeks of the season.

Instead of Clinch - Meaningless - Meaningless - Meaningless - Bye - Playoffs
you have Loss - Loss - Meaningless - Life or Death - Playoffs

I don't know of any analogous situations in recent memory, where a completely meaningless regular season game is followed by a meaningful one. Would you be more or less concerned about players losing their edge with a week off?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Eddo :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:03pm

That would be an interesting scenario, no doubt, but the 49ers are actually still alive.

If the 49ers win out (beating the Rams in week 15) and neither the Rams nor Seahawks reach 8 wins, the 49ers will win the division.

(See Travis's handy tiebreaker chart.)

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:02pm

LMAO @ Jax onside kick fail

-------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:06pm

Also: Grossman?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Willy T. (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:13pm

Washington came up short, but Grossman's better than McNabb. So is Jason Campbell, for that matter. Shanahan was right.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:20pm

Matt Dodge: Unemployed.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:22pm

LMAO @ DJax.

--------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:23pm

Herm Edwards, err... I mean DeSean Jackson.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by johnmartinolive... :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:25pm

I almost turned off the Eagles-Giants game after that last Giants TD(its almost 6 am here in Korea). very happy I didn't.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Semigruntled Eagles fan (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:26pm

I liked Desean's candor after the game. It's pretty rare that a player admits to thinking that they weren't going to pull off a big comeback after it happens.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Q (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:32pm

For the 1st time this year, the luck might be starting to turn GB's way with both NYG and TB losing today

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Spielman :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:37pm

I tuned into the Denver game in time to see Tebow take a bad sack to put his team into 3rd and forever... and then rip off a 40 yard TD run.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Just Another Falcons Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:48pm

Just saw DeSean Jackson's punt return to end the game. There was a Giant close enough to make running horizontally along the goal line to kill time a little risky. Didn't happen this time, but I bet we see someone screw that up someday.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Scott P. (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 5:59pm

Another weird 2nd and 1 become 1st and 10 oddity in the PIT/NYJ game.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:06pm

Phil Simms: "There's a big difference between half a yard and one foot."

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:12pm

Which he immediately corrected himself to "half yard and a yard".

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by hughesm12 :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:07pm

nice bootleg sanchez

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Rocco :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:11pm

Ryan Clark hits Braylon Edwards in the chest. It's called helmet-to-helmet because it's a hard hit. Even though Simms and Nantz acknowledge the refs screwed up, they still believe it to be a penalty.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:16pm

??? They didn't say he hit him in the chest, and they said it was very close. On top of that, they noted he launched himself.

From what I saw, his helmet hit Edwards face mask (second view) and Edwards head snapped back (first view).

This wasn't a controversial call IMO

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Lyford (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:22pm

I agree with NYExpat. He launched, using his helmet as a weapon. It looked exactly like the Brandon Meriwether play except he hit just a little lower. Bad play by Clark, should have been flagged.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Spielman :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:16pm

If this week's Scramble doesn't deal with that absolutely horrifying WalMart commercial with the kids singing a song that makes "It's a Small World After All" seem tolerable, I want to know the reason why. That commercial made my wife cry.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Just Another Falcons Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:17pm

Hasselback falls apart in Seattle. Just threw 2nd interception of the third quarter and lost fumble in end zone to boot.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:22pm

I expected the tagline of that Air Force ad to be "Service Means Citizenship".

Would You Like To Know More?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Pat Swinnegan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:37pm

It's not science fiction. Except that it is.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Just Another Falcons Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:24pm

Whitehurst in at QB in Seattle

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:27pm

Sanchez eludes a free blitzer (nice tuck, BTW), and hits a small window to a crossing Edwards on the run for 15 on 3rd and 9. Sweet.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:37pm

Cotchery stops in the middle of the field on a cross, but San he's seems to expect him to continue and almost throws a pick. He was also getting pressure, but that route keeps getting mixed up (receiver stops, San he's doesn't expect it). Is there a read that the receiver assumes that Sanchez isn't acknowledging?

Sanchez then eludes the Blitz and scrambles for 6, setting up a 35 yarder for Folk, which he hits dead middle. He and Sanchez have both had talk about being benched/replaced, and both have done just fine. I assume that's par for the course. Mediots, take note.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:45pm

Jets keep groundin' and poundin' and then... slant to Holmes that's one shoe trip away from a back breaking TD.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:47pm

Gah, screen to Edwards run OOB.

Then direct snap to Tomlinson for first down. Brian Schottenheimer: Superrr Geeeenious!

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:52pm

Jason Taylor: Jet.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 11:17am

Tomlin, Arians, useless. Great job losing that one.

-------------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 7:59pm

Greene gets 5-6 hard yards for 3rd and short, and BS calls a shotgun pass that stops the clock.

Suuuper Geeeenious!!!!

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Southern Philly :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:00pm

Great play calling by the Jets to throw on third down and give the Steelers a free clock stoppage.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:03pm

Failed attempt to visit The Island

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:04pm

Coleman second strip of Rothlesberger. Was Sanchez modeling his pocket avoidance from him?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:05pm

HTF was he that open with seven back?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:13pm

Stellar play by Randle El to recognize that the Steelers were about to line up in an illegal formation to spike the ball. Randle El sprinted across the formation and lined up as a TE so that the Steelers could get the snap off quickly without incurring a game-ending penalty.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Harris :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:17pm

Is there a 10 second runoff in that situation? I was trying to figure out why they just didn't take the illegal formation penalty.

Hail Hydra!

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:47pm

I'm pretty sure there is.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Jerry :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 2:51am

If the clock is running, there's a 10-second runoff. They don't want teams taking penalties to stop the clock.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:14pm

Roethlisberger just isn't really all that good this year. They really could've won that game if he wasn't so indecisive.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:18pm

Well that didn't take long.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Q (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:42pm

With DVOA loving Pitt this year, I suspect them to be over 40% and #1 in the rankings.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 8:48pm

A couple of weeks ago I cataloged the missed/bad calls against the Steelers. A few commentators suggested that I should catalog both sides of a game for use as comparison. So I did just that for the NYJ at PIT game. I offer these as data only without analysis or attempting to draw any conclusions.

In favor of New York:
- On the Steelers second drive, on two 1st and 3rd downs during the same series, passes to Mike Wallace were defensed via pass interference. Neither was called.
- On the Jets' final drive on the same play there was a missed hold against the pass rush and a very poor call of unnecessary roughness for a shoulder-to-chest hit by Ryan Clark on Braylon Edwards.
- I will have to watch a replay to be sure, but on the following play Sanchez threw the ball away to prevent pressure from reaching him while inside the pocket and it did not appear to reach the line of scrimmage, which should have been intentional grounding.
- During the Steelers' final drive on two plays from just outside the red zone there were two passes defensed by pass interference, one at or near the goal line. Neither was called.

In favor of Pittsburgh:
- On the Steelers' first drive of the second half, on first and ten, Rashard Mendenhall ran for nine yards. The spot was very generous giving him ten yard on the play for a first down.
- On the Steelers' second drive of the thirds quarter, on first and ten, the Steelers threw incomplete but were awarded five yards and first down on a ticky-tack defensive holding penalty.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by JIPanick :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:04pm

I saw a missed hold on the 3rd and 24 conversion. It should have been 3rd and 34.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:08pm

Re Wilson's hit: See 110.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:30pm

Just read it. You are incorrect. Have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b_-0etoRVw which nicely shows Robert Turner committing the hold and the legal shoulder-to-chest hit by Ryan Clark.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:51pm

Thanks for the link.

Left his feet and launched at the receiver: check.

Upper right front of helmet hits lower right front of Edward's helmet: check.

I can freeze it at the point of contact at 1:01.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:06pm

I just provided clear video evidence to support my argument. You can't just point at the same evidence and claim it shows the opposite of what it shows. As Monty Python put it "An argument isn't just contradiction."

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Eddo :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:14pm

I know you posted the video, but I really do think NYExpat has showed that it works against your argument. At 1:01-1:02, it really looks like Clark's helmet is hitting Edwards's, and Clark has clearly left his feet.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:20pm

Yeah, it clearly wasn't a helmet-to-helmet hit, but it looks an awful lot like Spearing, which carries an equivalent penalty.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by NYExpat :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:40pm

So what are you guys seeing if not helmet to helmet? Helmet to clavicle?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by troycapitated p... :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 10:55pm

The more times I watch the replay, the clearer the helmet contact seems to be, though I would still classify it as pretty minor helmet contact. He clearly launched though, and so deserved the penalty.

With that said, at about 3:25 of the Game Day highlight video doesn't the hit put on Antonio Brown look remarkably similar?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:16pm

Still can't believe just how the Giants choked.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Willsy :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:17pm

Hey Raiderjoe,

How sweet was that win. Really great seeing Denver lose again! While I am a Vikes fan and still sore about SB11 it is really good to see the Silver and Black firing again.

Now all the Vikes need is a QB.......

Willsy

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Willsy :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:19pm

RickD,

I turned it off after the Boss TD! Just watched the highlights, what happened? If Coughlin had a pistol that punter would be in the emergency room right now.

The Giants seemed to be playing really well so who turned on the light for the Eagles?

Willsy

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Eddo :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:26pm

Emergency room?!

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:17pm

Well, I don't know exactly how the Giants pulled it off. I was on a plane, watching it on DirectTv, and it seemed like the Giants had a comfortable lead. The Eagles were behind multiple TDs. Luckily, the Jet Blue screens are too narrow to capture the entire screen, so I never saw the entire score. The Eagles got a TD, and then had a brilliant onside kick that caught the Giants napping and apparently drove for a tying TD.

And then we landed. As I was walking through the airport, I saw that the Giants had punted with 15 or so seconds left in the game, and they punted to DeSean Jackson.

So that's how they lost.

Pretty much the only way they could have lost that game before OT, and they pulled it off. I've never seen a game end on a punt return before.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by SmokingClutch (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:21pm

That's because it's apparently the first time an NFL game has ended with a game-winning punt return.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Semigruntled Eagles fan (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:05am

The Eagles were behind by 14 when they did the onside kick. After scoring that touchdown, the Giants were able to convert a few first downs to force the Eagles to use all their timeouts, but didn't drive far enough to try a field goal. The ensuing punt was a touchback with about 3 minutes left - then the Eagles drove down the field, with two long runs by Vick setting up a short touchdown pass with just over a minute left.

The Giants (having all of their timeouts) called three passing plays on their final drive, which went incompletion, incompletion, sack (with 55 seconds remaining), leading to the final punt.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Semigruntled Eagles fan (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:34am

Actually, I misremembered this slightly - Maclin made a fair catch at the 12 before the Eagles final scoring drive, not a touchback.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Willsy :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:30pm

Eddo,

Yes you are right Coughlin would have killed him so straight to the morgue.

Willsy

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by MatMan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:31pm

What has Clay Matthews' friend Silent Bob been up to lately?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Pat Swinnegan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:35pm

Packers start the game with an on-sides kick and recover... I hope they aren't going to go all Jeff Fisher on the Pats here.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Daniel :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:45pm

The decision to defer should have been a giant red flag. They weren't likely to want Flynn to be playing from behind.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:48pm

I don't think the Packers' decision was eligible to be challenged by Belichick.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Daniel :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:58pm

um...ha ha? I guess?

Surprised the Packers didn't go back to the run on that series - seemed they were getting a good push from their OL.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Arkaein :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:11pm

BJack's best run was a draw, and Kuhn got a 1st down out of shotgun.

GB has been pretty consistently better at running draw plays than any sort of power runs this year. Even if they manage a few good runs in a drive it's not necessarily something they can repeat with regularity.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:22pm

Yeah, that was a (lame attempt at a) joke.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Q (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:52pm

How many dropped Int's has Brady had the last month? Just watching the last 5 quarters I have seen at least 3 or 4 that could/should have been.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Pat Swinnegan :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:59pm

"These aren't the six points you're looking for."

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Arkaein :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:52pm

Ah, Chuck. Cost GB 7 there by not making a pick you normally make in your sleep.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Daniel :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 9:54pm

Oof....Woodson will be have a new subject for his nightmares if the Patriots go on to win this.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:12pm

Great job by Brandon Merriweather taking out the CB there. I sense his playing time will be reduced...

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:15pm

Wow, horrible play by Meriweather. Absolute garbage.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Q (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:13pm

James Jones, GB's great enigma, some games great, others horrible.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Arkaein :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:23pm

What's amazing is that GB should really be schooling NE right now, but are still leading despite all the mistakes.

A dropped pick (not counting the 3rd down deep shot that Sam Shields could have made but would have been equivalent to a punt), allowing multiple long 3rd down conversions, the drop by Nelson.

Actually liked the 3rd and long draw to nowhere. GB's D is making NE earn it's points.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:37pm

So far, the Packers are playing with a lot more desire than the Patriots.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:42pm

The late flags are starting to piss me off.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:45pm

This is one of the worst officiated SEASONS I've ever seen. This game is a perfect example; it's as though they're pausing after every play to get the commissioner's verdict before they flag stuff.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:42pm

If the ball lands five yards out of bounds, how is that pass interference? Isn't it supposed to be catchable?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:46pm

Connoly motoring! That was hilarious!

177
Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:46pm

Best. Kick return. Ever.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:47pm

71-yard kickoff return by starting right guard Dan Connolly.

Hopefully that gives the Pats a jump start. Right now they look like a team that's been reading their press clippings all week.

201
Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Daniel :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:18pm

I think we're seeing what we've seen a few times over the past few years: however effortlessly they annihilate zone defenses, the Patriots' offense is still vulnerable against good pass rushes backed up by decent man coverage.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Q (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:48pm

So stupid to kick it low like that. Even if he gets tackles early on they are starting on the 40.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Arkaein :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:48pm

WTF GB ST?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:49pm

Game reminds me of a game a few years back when the Pats were playing the Falcons. Vick was out, so it was supposed to be an easy game against the backup QB.

Who turned out to be Matt Schaub.

Who torched the Pats.

I don't like backup QBs named Matt.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Daniel :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:54pm

The Patriots defense has also made A.J. Feeley look good on more than one occasion. I think a read-and-react defense like this is actually the ideal match-up from the point of view of an inexperienced QB, who will probably be operating a simplified version offense, and is therefore less prone to being confused by coverage schemes, etc.

182
Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:49pm

Um, Pats? You really need a TD here.

183
Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:52pm

Well, if Brady is going to get that much time....

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Nevic (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:52pm

Crosby got shoved in the back on that kickoff return right in front of the ballcarrier. Why no call? Is the rule different down the field?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:56pm

Maybe it's a makeup no-call for that BS penalty on McCourty.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Spielman :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:04pm

Or maybe they're just incompetent.

I just don't know whether it's possible for games to be officiated traditionally in a way that's going to be satisfying for viewers at home seeing slow motion replays from several angles on their high definition televisions.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:08pm

Only holding is allowed to go uncalled more often than blocks in the back.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Q (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 10:52pm

The NE TE's killing GB was predictable considering that GB is by far worse against TE's than against any other type of receiver.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Willy T. (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:13pm

These game threads are unreadable anymore - damn near every comment's about the officiating (ah yes, the truest indicator of fanboy idiocy: "waa, the refs are BIASED against my team, waa!") If I wanted to read Football Officiating Outsiders, I'd fucking go there. This site has some fine content, but too many of the posters are lame. Bye.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:14pm

Damn.
I'm going to miss you.
And your absence of a sense of irony.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:14pm

I don't think anyone has actually said the referees are biased. Just terrible.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:15pm

Don't let the door hit you.

I love when people whine about other people whining.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Paul R :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:15pm

But the refs ARE biased against my team!

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:13pm

Well, the rushing game was working. Terrible throw by Flynn. Costly mistake.
Very nice return by Arrington. Shook off a lot of tackles.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:13pm

Green Bay's offense tackles terribly.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:15pm

You'll see that often. Offensive players are much worse at tackling than defensive players.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Q (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:17pm

Too bad Rodger's can't play this game. Would have made for an epic game

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:19pm

Now Collinsworth is saying that Matt Flynn is a little like Brett Favre.

*facepalm*

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Spielman :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:34pm

Well, he plays quarterback and he's right-handed. That makes him a little like BrettFavre.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:25pm

Tackling 101, anybody? Should have stopped him at the five.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:26pm

Apparently Ninkovich fell down?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:27pm

Hmph. Not the best moment for Ninkovich to fall down.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:25pm

Kuhn is just killing the patriots

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Rocco :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:26pm

I was all set to call McCarthy a moron for calling a swing pass to the fullback on 3rd and 8...and it went for a TD. Nevermind.

Harvey Danger on the way to break? What year is this again?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:30pm

McCarthy's still a moron, unless he had diagrammed a linebacker falling down.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Rocco :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:32pm

*troll mode engaged*

If it happened to the Pats, people would say Belichick knew the linebacker had balance issues and would fall over.

*troll mode off*

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:35pm

um, no

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:27pm

Packers are 8 for 12 on 3rd down conversions.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:29pm

So much for that defensive improvement...

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:37pm

The defense sure aint playing well, but its the Pats offense that is losing this game.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:41pm

I disagree. The offense has had one possession in the second half. The defense has failed many more times in the second half than the offense.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:39pm

For all everyone criticizes the announcers, Collinsworth did say NE was the worst team against 3rd down.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Arkaein :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:33pm

BJ Raji may be booking himself a trip to Hawaii in a couple of months after tonight.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:37pm

For some reason the Pats' O-line didn't try to block him on that sack play.

Meanwhile, the Packers' running game is running over the Pats.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:39pm

Come on, the check-off to the FB isn't supposed to be that effective. Just tackle him! They throw it to him five yards short of the marker and...the defenders just stand and watch and wait for him to do something!! It's maddening!

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by lionsbob :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:42pm

I went into tonight's game down by 18 in my fantasy playoffs. I had Danny Woodhead, Shayne Graham, and the Patriot's defense. Thinking I was safe because, well hell it is Matt Flynn against the Patriots. Boy am I wrong right now (though I am down by 5 right now).

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:44pm

When is the last time the Patriots had a good game against a backup QB?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:52pm

Which is strange, because BB used to destroy rookie QB's.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:55pm

They looked pretty good two weeks ago against Sanchez...

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:56pm

+1

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:49pm

Kicking that FG from the one was stupid. Still a one score game, and in the blink of an eye, the Pats offense is in the red zone.

Leaving them at the one if you fail is a more desirable outcome than those three points.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:55pm

Nice sack by McCourty there. Maybe Patriot LBs should take tackling lessons from him.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:55pm

Wilfork in coverage?????

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Sun, 12/19/2010 - 11:56pm

Flynn goes head first again. McCarthy should punch him when he gets back to the sideline.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:00am

Ha! I was thinking the same thing.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:09am

What I find interesting is that Rodgers and Flynn both still wear the older helmets that aren't as good against concussions. Rodgers (and Brady too actually) wears the Riddell and Flynn the non-Riddell copycat with the same facemask.

With the tougher testing they make people pass now, I'm not sure it's a good idea to continue to wear the older model. If even Roethlisberger is willing to switch (and Eli is willing to look like a space alien), I think it's high time the QB with 2 concussions this year makes a change too.

Shit, I sound too much like TMQ. Don't kick on 4th and 1. Change helmets. Belichick is EEEEEEEEEEEvil!!!

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:14am

Which helmet does Austin Collie wear?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:18am

I think it's one of the Schutts, but not the giant one like Eli's:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/story/2010/12/19/sp-collie-hit.html

I don't know which is supposed to be the best. With his history I would've sent him out there with a Kelso shell and pillows taped to his ears.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:16am

Lineman grabs Tully Banta-Cain by his helmet. Banta-Cain replies in kind. Refs cancel an INT to penalize Banta-Cain for doing same thing O-line was doing.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:19am

The retaliation always gets flagged.

Tully's was worse, though, cause he shoved/punched twice.

Linemen hardly ever get called for the facemasks they commit. I've seen a few in recent weeks (two for the Colts, actually) and have been shocked every time.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:25am

One of the announcers earlier today said this:

"if you think someone is committing a penalty against you, just fall down. You'll almost always get a flag"

I think its sound advice.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:20am

The retaliation always gets flagged.

Tully's was worse, though, cause he shoved/punched twice.

Linemen hardly ever get called for the facemasks they commit. I've seen a few in recent weeks (two for the Colts, actually) and have been shocked every time.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:17am

Tully Banta Cain may have just lost this game.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:18am

Packers seem pretty nonchalant about gaining the last 35 yards. I don't think they should take the TD for granted.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:23am

Who is Dave Fletcher?

Now the Packers have taken about a minute and a half to gain 3 yards.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by dmb :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 1:09am

It's Dane Fletcher; he's a rookie undrafted free agent linebacker who played DE at Montana State. He was inactive the first couple weeks, and since then has played on special teams and occasionally in passing situations. He forced a fumble by Kris Wilson in Week 7: http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-england-patriots/09000d5d81b959c8/Patriots...

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:26am

...and like I thought might happen, terrible clock management has killed the Packers.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Dave :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:28am

Just awful.

Give him time, and Flynn can run their WCO. Good for him. Force him to actually make a decision, though, and you get game-ending stupidity.

I still think that all started pretty clearly unraveling when they settled for the FG to make it 27-21. As soon as he kicked that I knew the Pats would win.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Daniel :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:32am

I was going to make a joke about writing "game over" in your notebook, but then I realized that's been done to death already. (It's probably a sign that Easterbrook needs to think of something new when not only his schtick but jokes based on his schtick have gotten tiresome.)

Agree 100% with your point, btw.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Arkaein :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:35am

Give me a break. Driver gets one more yard and GB spikes the ball and gets three shots at the end zone. Kicking a FG hardly lost the game.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Nate999999 (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:26am

That was the worst 2-minute drill I've ever seen in my life.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:27am

What an ending. Man. BB is going to have a lot of film to show this week...

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Spielman :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:29am

That was absolutely brutal abuse of the clock. If it's not the worst I've ever seen, I've blocked whatever was worse out because it was too traumatic.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Daniel :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:29am

Best of both worlds: a win, and a major complacency-deterrent at the same time.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by snik75 (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:30am

They didn't have a play called for if they ended up in 4th down! And they didn't know what to do! UGLY!

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Paul R :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:31am

Tough loss. With only one week of starting practice for Flynn, I guess the Packers never got around to, "What's our go-to play with no time outs and the game on the line and thirty yards to go?"

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Arkaein :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:33am

Well, going into the game my main hope (since this game doesn't have a large impact on GB's playoff chances) was that GB at least maintain its streak of being competitive in every game and having a chance to win going into the final few seconds (or at least final two minutes, after the Lions game), and to avoid embarrassing themselves like the Jets and Bears.

I got my wish I guess, but it really felt like the Pack should've pulled that game out. I hope I don't have to listen to any knucklehead Packer fans here or elsewhere moaning about how McCarthy lost them this game though. As far as I'm concerned he gets most of the credit for putting together a plan that kept GB in it for the duration.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:56am

Yes, McCarthy's plan kept them in the game. But it also showed why the Packers keep losing close games. McCarthy is a terrible coach at the end of the game. Clock management issues. Poor adjustment to defensive changes. Seemingly unaware of the obvious. McCarthy suffers from all the above.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by snik75 (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:41am

Yeah I thought McCarthy called a really good game, although there may have been some luck involved as well. The two straight inside handoffs on the goal line seemed one (or two) too many, like an attempt to get Kuhn the score he would have had if he had dodged the last defender rather than trying to run him over the play before. Kicking the field goal - not that smart in retrospect, but I can see why they did it. Having Flynn throw deep ever = bad idea. I hope they don't do it again.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Q (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:52am

I hope GB sees NE again (with Rodgers). They are perhaps the best built team to go against NE. With a strong passing attack and a strong pass D, they have the talent to give NE fits.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by PatsFan :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:53am

I hope NE sees GB again, too, as it means NE would have made the SB.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:56am

Well, the Packers literally have a must-win next week against the Giants. If they lose that, they miss the playoffs.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by JonFrum :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 1:27am

"I hope GB sees NE again (with Rodgers). They are perhaps the best built team to go against NE. With a strong passing attack and a strong pass D, they have the talent to give NE fits."

Given that Belichick has never lost to a team twice in the same year while HC of the Patriots, I'd expect that a second shot at the Packers would give him a chance to dial up the adjustments necessary to beat them more convincingly next time. Just sayin.'

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by tuluse :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 4:00pm

Given that Belichick has never lost to a team twice in the same year while HC of the Patriots

Well he didn't lose to the Packers, so this isn't all that relevant of a stat is it? Unless he's never lost to a team on their 2nd meeting, which I doubt.

I also seem to remember some NFC East team which gave them more trouble than they were expecting, but lost, and ended up winning 5 weeks later.

/just having some fun since you are pulling out stats with really small sample sizes.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by DomM (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 7:04am

Colts in 2007? Regular Season and AFCCG? Maybe I'm not remembering it properly.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by No one of consequence (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 10:38am

2006. Indy won in week 9, 27-20, and in the AFCCG, 38-34.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by No one of consequence (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 10:45am

Also in 2005, when Denver beat New England in regular season and playoffs.

Unless he means "calendar year," which might be true but is even less meaningful.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Daniel :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 12:58am

From a Patriots' point of view, this game was awfully reminiscent of the Philadelphia game in '07.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Q (not verified) :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 1:11am

From GB's perspective, this game actually was not very important (assuming Chicago beats Minn). Next week's game against NYG is essentially a Play Off game

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 9:13pm

Steve Young just correctly used the word "amplitude". (Describing the range of Jay Cutler's performance.)
I wonder how he feels sitting next to Matt Millen. Does he think "my thumbnail is smarter than this guy!"?

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Mon, 12/20/2010 - 11:52pm

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9584/nopec.jpg

Webb wasn't in, his foot scraped the sideline just before getting the ball across the pylon/goalline

-------------------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Tue, 12/21/2010 - 11:43am

That camera isn't lined up perpendicular. If it were, it might show the ball breaking the plane first.

Besides, its not like this even affects the vegas line.

The only people who could possibly care are fantasy football people who started Joe Webb as a wide receiver for the playoffs (and people who play against them).

(i'm bitter, needed 2 more yards from Greg Olson. 2 frikkin yards!!!)

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by FireOmarTomlin :: Tue, 12/21/2010 - 12:07pm

I took it a frame too late (when his foot was already out) but didnt rewind it again as it was too much effort.

The ball certainly had not crossed the plane then, perpendicular angle or not.

----------------------------------
Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.

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Re: Week 15 Open Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Tue, 12/21/2010 - 12:33am

running the zone read with joe webb and toby gerhart is not an effective strategy

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