Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

15 Sep 2013

Week 2 Open Discussion Thread

Hey kids, time to discuss all the games of Week 2 as they happen. Are you ready for some completely unknown Jets or Patriots receiver to have a big game? Also, remember that on SUNDAY, you can track our Audibles at the Line comments on Twitter using the hashtag #foaud.

Posted by: Aaron Schatz on 15 Sep 2013

249 replies , Last at 17 Sep 2013, 11:51pm by Splat

1
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Biff Baker (not verified) :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 8:22pm

I am starting Edelman over Bryant in PPR league
What u think?

3
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 8:37pm

So far, looks like a good call. I got Edelman off waivers in my PPR league to replace Amendola. Almost worth the week 1 loss for that.

2
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 8:35pm

Edelman just beat Cromartie all ends up on a slant-and-go, but Brady overthrew it. Let off for the Jets... until two plays later, play action, Brady to a wide-open Dobson, touchdown.

4
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 8:38pm

Man, what the heck was going on in the Jets secondary that drive?

5
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 8:42pm

Cromartie's started out poorly. If he struggles this year, the Jets are in trouble.

6
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 8:46pm

The Pats are ahead because Brady hit an open receiver while Geno Smith missed one. Dont'a Hightower looked awful in coverage trying to keep up with an RB.

7
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 8:48pm

Pats get lucky again on defense. Huge gain turns into a fumble + return.

8
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 8:49pm

Disastrous fumble by Stephen Hill on the Jets' second drive. Jets passing game so far 1-for-3 with the completion being fumbled.

9
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 8:49pm

That's just brutal from Stephen Hill.

10
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 8:56pm

Jets the advertised train wreck so far. Blown coverages, open receivers missed, fumbles, penalties, sacks given up.

11
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:04pm

Lazy officials just give a TD figuring they can reverse on review.

12
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Mountainhawk :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:16pm

Not sure how the heck the Jets are only down 7 after a quarter that ugly.

13
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:17pm

Stephen Hill, you want to stretch your body out for the first down before you're on the ground, not after.

14
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Insancipitory :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:22pm

Looks like the Jets are finally going to catch a break.

15
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:23pm

Usually see these ruled incomplete. Pats will be hard done to if this remains a turnover.

16
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:25pm

Yeah. I feel like if that happened in the end zone, it'd be ruled incomplete every time.

17
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:25pm

Whoa - I thought that was a fumble on Edelman.

18
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:29pm

Jets have nobody back on a punt, Pats cover guy runs into the ball long before he should.

Mistakes cancel each other.

Week 2, folks!

19
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:30pm

Edelman must have been targeted 12 times already.

Now the Jets have nobody back to field a punt. Comical.

20
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:31pm

I guess the lack of a "football move" saved him. But it was odd that the ref said he lost the ball just after he got the second foot down, it looked like he almost planted the 3 step before fumbling.

21
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by batbatt :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:37pm

Per ESPN's Gamecast:

1st and 10 at NYJ 46: (Shotgun) PENALTY on NYJ-W.Colon, False Start, 6 yards, enforced at NYJ 46 - No Play.

I'm not watching the game. Are the refs just making it up as they go along tonight?

23
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:41pm

No, that's an error on ESPN.

22
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:39pm

This is definitely not a vintage Patriots offense. Jets have a respectable, probably even good, defense, but the Patriots offense is making more unforced mistakes than I'm used to seeing from them.

25
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:42pm

The first drive was great.

Since then it's been crap.

29
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:47pm

The announcers discussed the Jets struggling to figure out one of the Patriots' offensive packages, which suggests the first drive benefited from that. Once the adjustments were made, nothing's happened on offense for the Patriots.

34
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:50pm

Right on cue, deep ball left to Thompkins complete for a huge gain.

24
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:42pm

Slightly underthrown pass, but still hit Clyde Gates in the chest. Little help for Geno out there. He's not particularly accurate as you might expect, but the Jets receivers really are brutal.

32
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:49pm

Geno's looked raw. The receivers have looked bad.

26
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:43pm

Jesus H., Dobson, two drops in a row!!!!

27
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:44pm

Dobson just -roasted- the Jets secondary deep, and Brady uncharacteristically put the ball right on the money. Huge drop.

28
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:45pm

Gotta wonder how pissed Brady has to be now. He took a smaller contract so the Pats could have money to spend. And then Belichick gives him the current crop of receivers.

64
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:50pm

Belichick : We're really glad you signed this below value contract, Tom. We'll be able to surround you with as much talent as Rodgers or Manning.
Brady: Thanks coach. That means a lot to me.

One month later:
Belichick: Tom, guess who we signed.
Brady: Mike Wallace? Greg Jennings?
Belichick: Tom, you'll be glad to hear we signed Danny Amendola to replace Welker. It's like getting a younger, faster Wes.
Brady: Um. Coach. Did you notice the guy gets injured almost as often as Danario Alexander?
Belichick: He's been cleared by our doctors. Plus, we still have time to get you more receivers.
Brady: Good to hear that, coach.

Two weeks later:
Belichick: Tom, you'll never believe who we signed?
Brady: Coach, you realize all the best ones signed weeks ago.
Belichick: Tom, we signed Mike Jenkins. He's a former first round pick.
Brady: Coach, he's a bust.
Belichick: Tom, he left Ryan just as Ryan got good. And nobody looks good with Christian Ponder throwing him the ball. I'm sure we can coach him up. Plus, we still have the draft.
Brady: I guess I'll wait until the draft.

After the draft:
Brady: Coach, who's this Dobson guy?
Belichick: Tom, you'll love him. He's a talented kid out of Marshall, just like Randy Moss.
Brady: Coach, just because a guy went to Marshall doesn't mean he's Randy Moss
Belichick: Tom, don't worry. We drafted another guy, Josh Boyce, out of TCU.
Brady: These aren't another Chad Jackson and Bethel Johnson is it.
Belichick: Trust me, Tom. I know what I'm doing.

120
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RedDawg (not verified) :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 8:50am

Everybody who believes "Brady took less" is stupid. They tacked a year to the end of the contract to make it cap friendly. Just wait and see how Brady rides into the sunset with a year left on the deal.

30
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by bobrulz :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:47pm

This game (and the Bills game to an extent) are proof that even the greatest quarterbacks can be made to look mediocre if they don't have any NFL-quality receivers on their roster. Would Edelman even be a 3rd option on most teams? Brady looks so out-of-rhythm, but it's hardly his fault.

31
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by B :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:48pm

Pats defense finally getting some pressure on Geno. And their first sack of the year.

33
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:50pm

I know that Brady isn't known for accuracy on long passes, but don't make it easy for him.

35
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:52pm

He overthrew Edelman on a double move earlier, but apart from that his deep ball's bang on the money so far.

38
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:53pm

He's had a shocking number of opportunities where the receivers have been wide open.

The Jets really, really miss Revis.

36
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:52pm

I wouldn't sell Dobson life insurance right now.

37
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:53pm

Dobson looked like a frightened deer in Tom Brady's laser-eye headlights there.

39
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by B :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 9:58pm

Did they change the rules or something? What's with the 12 men on the field pre-snap whistle?

42
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:02pm

Yes. They changed the rule so that the play's blown dead if the referees see 12 men on the field and the snap is imminent.

47
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:05pm

Defense is allowed to have 12 men on the field before the snap, as long as they're down to 11 by the time the ball is snapped.

Offenses is not allowed to have 12 men in the huddle.

Defense can use a timeout to avoid a penalty. Offense cannot, at least if they have 12 men in the huddle.

40
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:01pm

ANOTHER deep throw where Dobson beats the defensive back but doesn't make the catch. No wonder Brady looks like he's about to explode.

43
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:02pm

Looked like that one was on Brady to me.

Jets gameplan is obviously to dare Brady to beat them deep, and they are lucky it hasn't cost them at least 3 TDs this half.

48
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:05pm

It's hard to say. Dobson looked like he didn't run as hard as he could have.

41
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:01pm

Gotta wonder why they're going to Dobson so much tonight. Brady had much better rapport with Thompkins in the pre-season. Dobson looks like he needs a lot of work still.

46
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:05pm

My assumption is Brady's going there because he's open so often. He's been wide open now four times, at least three of which should have been touchdowns. Unfortunately for him, he's only caught one of the passes - and Brady hasn't missed.

44
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by PatsFan :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:02pm

Patriots demonstrating why no other teams run the 1WR-0TE offense...

45
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by duh :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:04pm

If I ever worked with a colleague like TBXII I would have a hard time resisting the urge to do him grievous harm.

49
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:06pm

Geno looking more and more panicky in the pocket as this game wears on. Emphasis on 'wears'.

50
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:06pm

I can't remember the last time I saw the Patriots do this little with field position this favourable.

51
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:09pm

Disagreeing with Mayock on this replay.

52
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:11pm

I agree with the call being overturned, but that explanation's stupid.

53
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:13pm

Ugh. Terrible kick.

54
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:15pm

Seems like every year Gostkowski has at least one of those horrible field goal attempts that don't even look like they're kicked right.

56
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:19pm

Part of the problem is the Pats cut their punter/holder, Zoltan Mesko. That kick was so awful I wonder if it was the holder's fault.

55
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:17pm

Big question for the second half is whether the Jets will be able to move the ball like they did at times in the first half. That lost TD would have made life much easier for the Pats' defense. The Jets' offense isn't good enough to put up points quickly.

So far, Geno looks reasonably good for a QB starting his second NFL game. I don't think Sanchez will ever see another start for the Jets.

Pats should be much better when Gronk and Amendola return. All I can think is, in Belichick's defense, he didn't think that his other receiving TE would be arrested for Murder 1. A healty Hernandez in this game and the Pats are up 28-3 at halftime.

What a shame.

59
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:33pm

Likely that Vereen's a big loss too. Hard to imagine they wouldn't have had a bag of tricks ready just for him. Losing him and Hernandez has made a big difference to their base-package versatility.

Of course, the Jets losing Sanchez has been a hindrance to the Patriots too.

61
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:39pm

Vereen was great Week One, as was Amendola.

"Of course, the Jets losing Sanchez has been a hindrance to the Patriots too."

(chuckle)

57
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:28pm

As if this game wasn't ugly enough looks like there is now a deluge at Foxboro.

58
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Insancipitory :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:32pm

Maybe these WR can only catch wet balls.

60
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:38pm

Another drop by Dobson!

62
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:41pm

Four sacks by the Patriots?

(rubs eyes)

63
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:46pm

"I still maintain he kicked himself in the balls."

Geno's done more for the Patriots' pass rush than they've done for themselves, at least on the sacks.

65
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:52pm

He's holding the ball too long and doesn't move well in the pocket.

But he scrambles well. Weird.

66
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:52pm

ANOTHER drop by Dobson!!!

67
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:53pm

His touchdown catch aside, Dobson's having a nightmare.

68
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:53pm

I think Dobson has "least valuable WR" in DVOA this week wrapped up. Even with a TD to his credit!

69
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:55pm

At $4 mil/year, Welker is looking extremely cheap.

70
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:00pm

I don't want to draw too much from two games, but this Patriots pass offense has now varied between poor and inconsistent for almost 1/8 of the season.

I'm a huge fan of Amendola, but it's hard to imagine even getting him back will fix this. With Gronkowski still out and Vereen missing at least eight weeks, the first half of this season is not likely to be much fun for Patriots fans.

71
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:05pm

Kevin Cadle, Sky Sports UK's studio anchor, is obviously watching a different game from the rest of us. Very good game, apparently.

This is not a good advert for the NFL. Thursday Night Football seldom is, but this is particularly poor.

73
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:08pm

NFL Network guys just said the same thing. My thought is "No, a close game isn't necessarily a good game."

This might be a career low for Brady's completion percentage. He's in the Tebow zone with all the drops.

72
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:06pm

I don't even know who that Jets receiver #85 is, but that drop was Dobsonesque.

74
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:11pm

The Patriots are being outplayed by quite a bit in the 2nd half.

75
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:13pm

Rookie mistake by Geno.

A FG ties the game.

78
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:16pm

Can't fault him for trying to make the play. Holmes had separation and was there, pass was just slightly inaccurate. A little unlucky to be tipped and picked.

Geno has looked raw at times, but he's certainly shown me enough tonight to believe Sanchez has played his last snap in a Jets uniform.

80
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:24pm

Totally agree. If this game's any indication, I don't see any reason apart from injury why Geno Smith wouldn't start every game for the Jets this season.

Though do remember that this Patriots pass defense probably isn't very good. Admittedly, that's probably offset by how bad the Jets receivers are.

86
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:31pm

I don't fault him for attempting a throw. I fault him for making a bad throw.

76
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:14pm

Disagree that the ball shouldn't have been thrown. He just missed by a foot. It's a throw I'd want my quarterback to attempt, though if he's going to miss he needs to miss in front of the receiver instead of behind.

77
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:16pm

DOBSON CAUGHT A PASS!

79
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:20pm

Edelman's looked good this evening for what he is, at least according to my lying eyes, but he's simply not a receiver who can be relied on as a primary option or against double coverage. He is, however, the only receiver the Patriots have who looks like he belongs on a NFL roster, never mind getting consistent snaps on offense.

84
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:29pm

In consolation I guess the Patriots can expect to have more success on the ground against other teams. This Jets run D is good.

85
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:30pm

I'm not sure the little guy could last the full season being the primary option either.

81
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DA (not verified) :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:25pm

Pats sure lucked out starting the year vs. Buff and NYJ. If they played any competent teams they would be 0-2

121
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RedDawg (not verified) :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 8:56am

Patriots always look shoddy at the start of the season. They started 1-2 last season, loosing to the Cardinals. Even when they win, they never look that good.

Actually, at the beginning of the Buffalo game, they looked much better than I expected.

123
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 10:02am

I figured at the start of the year that the Patriots would still easily make 10-6, because that only required going 4-6 out of division.

129
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by herewegobrowniesherewego (not verified) :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 9:23pm

5-1 or even 4-2 in division is looking realistic at this point, given that they have to play the Jets on the road and Miami twice.

However, getting 4 out-of-division wins from just the AFC North is also looking realistic right now (although they have to play probably their two toughest matchups on the road.)

130
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Mr Shush :: Sat, 09/14/2013 - 4:38am

As currently constituted, I think the Bengals are a better team than the Patriots. That may well change once the Pats get some receiving targets back from injury, of course.

82
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:27pm

Tonight, in sentences I never thought I'd type: It's hard to imagine where tonight's Patriots team would be without Julian Edelman.

83
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:28pm

Let's see...
1st down rush for nothing
2nd down completion on a crossing pattern to Edelman
3rd down incompletion to Dobson

I'm sure I've seen that sequence before.

This is awful stuff.

87
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:34pm

Three turnovers for the Jets.

I think with only two they would win this game.

88
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:34pm

Those wasted timeouts really look bad for the Jets right now.

89
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:35pm

Time for Brady to go to Belichick and beg to get Dennard at wide receiver. Best catch tonight by any Patriots player not named Julian Edelman.

90
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:36pm

Why would the Jets fake an injury? The Pats are the ones trying to burn clock!
They're certainly not going to hurry-up now.

In case it's not clear: I'm criticizing the Pats fans booing the injury.

91
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:38pm

Have we reached the point yet where Brady's dropping back, looking for Edelman, and throwing it that way no matter who else is where?

92
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:42pm

Are fumbles actually more likely on toss plays? Seems like they would be. Assuming they are, any idea what McDaniels was thinking calling a toss in that situation? Is it purely a reflection on how good the Jets' inside run defense has been, or indicative of his broader lunacy?

95
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:47pm

I would think that a toss in the rain is more likely to be dropped than a handoff.

And Arrington got away with some stuff on that pass pattern.

93
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:45pm

Can Geno lead a game-tying drive with a minute on the clock?

In the rain? If he does and the Jets win, they'll have earned it.

94
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:46pm

Time for Geno to do what he does best: goad the opposition into making a dumb penalty!

96
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:49pm

Defense wins the game.

The Pats' D should have a respectable showing on DVOA.

The Pats' O, on the other hand, will be very low.

Good game for Edelman. Did I say good? Great!

Brady was much better than the numbers will show.

97
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:51pm

A shame that the game finished this way with a scrum, ejected players, and one player pushing an official.

I think pushing an official leads to a suspension.

100
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:54pm

I think pushing an official leads to a suspension.

It had better. If not, I think it's the only major sport where it doesn't.

106
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:57pm

I don't know if this is what was called, but I saw a ref attempting to tackle #60 Jets and push him to the ground. Didn't see what happened after that, but no way should the officials be able to do that to a player, especially in a scrum.

124
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 10:05am

Football's also the only major sport where battery by an official ended a player's career. So the NFLPA may have gotten larger concessions on that issue than in hockey, baseball, or basketball.

You also see refs being taken out occasionally in boxing.

98
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:51pm

Ballgame. Thank goodness that's over.

Barely credible that this Patriots team is 2-0.

I don't like the criticism of Talib there. He dallied, sure, and now only one kneeldown is needed instead of two. Yes, it's a kneeldown, but even the miniscule odds of a fumble would be lessened by only needing to snap the ball once instead of twice.

The resultant melee's almost apt for how awful the game was, and the Jets finish with two starting O-linemen ejected.

103
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:55pm

I think Talib couldn't decide whether he should stay in bounds or not. If I'd been in his place, I would have just taken a knee on the field. Don't know why he didn't. The spinning out of bounds was partly to avoid Mangold, who was diving for his knees.

99
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:53pm

Belichick insists that the players who have been ejected leave the bench area!

With only one play left in the game, who else would have cared??

101
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by magurkin52 (not verified) :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:55pm

I rather enjoyed the scrum, ejected Jets, and player pushing an official. Appropriate end to such a game as this.

102
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by mehllageman56 (not verified) :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:55pm

I'm glad no one got injured on that last interception and the fracas afterward. Someone in New England needs to show Talib the footage from the Chargers Patriots game where the defensive back lost the game by picking off a pass. Just go down, dude. Then again, I don't know why Mangold is diving at Talib, unless he was hoping to take the next couple of games off.

On another note I hope Richardson and Wilkerson aren't hurt that bad, and that Geno's are just rookies that he'll learn from.

104
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by mehllageman56 (not verified) :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:56pm

Oops. Geno's mistakes are just rookie ones, not his pizza slices or whatever.

105
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by mehllageman56 (not verified) :: Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:57pm

Which player pushed an official?

107
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 12:22am

It was either Colon or Ferguson. Both were ejected. One for throwing a punch, the other for pushing an official. I think both get suspended.

108
Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by bobrulz :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 12:31am

Patriots should be grateful they played both of the rookie quarterbacks in their first two games. Even Brady can't cover for the lack of receiving talent on this team. Maybe not quite historically awful, but without Gronkowski and Amendola, it's probably the worst receiving corps in the league.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by mehllageman56 (not verified) :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 12:34am

Not sure if they're worse than the Jets recieving core. They were pretty bad tonight too.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Mr Shush :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 5:45am

Corpse, people. The word is corpse.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 12:43am

Fortunately for the Patriots, they now have over a week to prepare for their next game. That should be enough time to get Amendola back, though groin tears have a nasty habit of persisting if they aren't allowed to heal fully. Even with him, though, it's barely an average group. Certainly not about to break any passing records this year.

Pity the Patriots don't play the Jaguars this year. Tom Brady and Justin Blackmon could conspire to ease one another's woes.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by mehllageman56 (not verified) :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 12:32am

Great, so Mario Williams has Geno for lunch next week. Does anyone know how bad the Wilkerson injury was? I just read he was carted off the field.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 12:45am

I see a lot of "Brady was much better than the numbers will show," "Even Brady can't cover for the lack of receiving talent," and "Brady hasn't missed."

Were we watching different games? Brady was awful. He missed plenty of open receivers. And Dobson, that guy didn't do himself any favors, but the cavalcade of barely-catchable passes thrown his way made his job a lot harder than it needed to be.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by bobrulz :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 12:50am

I wasn't able to watch the whole game, but I saw a lot more of "receiver wasn't where he was supposed to be" and "receiver drops ball" than "Brady makes bad pass". It wasn't Brady's best game, but this seems like a pretty clear case of the receivers holding back the quarterback to me. I'll have to watch it back on Game Rewind to know for sure.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 12:55am

The "Brady hasn't missed" comment was mine, and was referring to Dobson's series of miscues on open throws that either hit him in the hands or he went the wrong way. It wasn't meant to apply to more than that one sequence of drops and miscues.

Your comment does suggest that you and I were watching different games, however. "Cavalcade of barely-catchable passes thrown [Dobson's] way" doesn't describe the game I watched at all.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by bobrulz :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 12:48am

NFL.com link title:

"Watch: Best plays from Jets-Patriots"

Man those NFL guys really do have a sense of humor!

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by mehllageman56 (not verified) :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 1:01am

It would be a bunch of sacks, tackles and interceptions.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by greedisland (not verified) :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 5:43am

It's pretty clear from this game that if you take away the quarterbacks, the Jets are currently a better team than the Pats. Geno's inaccuracy tipped the scales.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Malene_copenhagen :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 5:55am

Which is a little bit like saying that if you take away her arms, Serena Williams is currently not very good at tennis.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by mehllageman56 (not verified) :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 9:16am

i know Geno's inaccuracy is a big meme right now, but I think his problem is poor decision making, not inaccuracy. Of the three picks, two were poor decisions, not necessarily inaccurate.

By the way, are we sure Clyde Gates wasn't fighting for the Pats in that last scrum? It seemed like he was playing for them most of the game.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 10:06am

Geno made some nice plays and some bad ones. About what I was expecting. Enough to show he is a better long term prospect than Sánchez though.

Its going to be tough to evaluate his overall play this season as his receivers are so awful.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 11:06am

That's about right. Geno showed enough to make me think that he'll be a serviceable QB in the near future. I wouldn't stress over the 4th quarter picks as much as some of the avoidable sacks. A mobile QB shouldn't get sacked by the Patriots four times.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by tuluse :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 11:27am

Wasn't there some research that FO did that showed mobile quarterbacks actually got sacked more? The reasoning was that they would try to do more and not give up on plays quickly enough.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Gorilla Graham (not verified) :: Fri, 09/13/2013 - 1:30pm

I know that Tebow took a large number of sacks when he was playing here in Denver, partly, I suppose for the reasons you mentioned.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by bobrulz :: Sat, 09/14/2013 - 11:13pm

Sanchez showed a lot of potential to be a franchise quarterback in his first season, too.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 1:35pm

Brady's receivers sans Edelman were awful too, but it was pretty clear that Brady is still a good QB.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by joe football (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 12:39pm

Be sure join a star-studded cast of your favorite FO posters for another season of real time football chat!
Instructions moved to a pastebin due to overzealous spam filter: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Qjf3ZzvE

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 1:37pm

You can put a big cross through the packers on your list of Superbowl candidates of they keep 'protecting' like they are today.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 1:56pm

Redskins don't have the defense to slow down the Packers.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 5:27pm

My quick impression was the 'Skins D came out firing, getting those three sacks on the Packers first two drives, but Rogera and the Packers made some very quick adjustments, which the Redskins failed to match. Same old problems. Result: early 24 point deficit, which forced the offense into overreaching to try to catch up. I thought the offense played fairly well, considering how immobile Griffin looked.

Am I the only one who would prefer to see a healthy Cousins rather than a hobbled Griffin?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Hummingbird Cyborg :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 2:13pm

I'm so glad that I'm not a Chargers fan. I mean, it'd suck to be a Jaguars fan or a Raiders fan (Though they had their heyday), but the Chargers are good at giving just enough hope to make their blunders all the more painful.

They are about to score a touchdown when their best player fumbles the ball on the two while holding the ball in a way that we should really never see in the NFL.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Hummingbird Cyborg :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 2:21pm

And then they do it again.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Hummingbird Cyborg :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 2:26pm

As the Eagles kick goes wide right:

Don't take our shtick. Getting fans hopes up and then dashing them is our thing.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 2:24pm

"Weeden has connected on his last 8 straight."

Sentences I didn't think I'd hear today.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 2:27pm

Cundiff 6, Tucker 0.

Two missed FG attempts by Justin Tucker. WTF??

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 2:38pm

I just do not understand the "ice the kicker" last-second timeout (unless it's a deliberate attempt to injure the kicker in the hope he'll stop at the whistle and sprain something, which is why all kickers are taught to keep going with the kick no matter what).

(I also don't understand commentators who say things like "That was a brilliant timeout by Pagano!")

Has there ever a statistical comparison between FG attempts before and after "icing"? That is, are kickers more likely, less likely, or no more or less likely to make FGs across the various situations? 'Cause it is annoying as hell as a fan to have to watch the same play run twice (dragging out the suspense, since these "iced" FGs are always right at the end of a half and important), but if it actually accomplishes something it would be tolerable. But if it's just "conventional wisdom" with no actual backing...

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 3:03pm

I know this has been discussed a lot, but I don't know if anybody has actually run the stats. My gut feeling, from watching this strategy a lot, is that a kicker is more likely to be more accurate after the timeout than less accurate. That's particularly true if the kicker actually gets a kick launched before the time out.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 3:23pm

It's a thing coaches do just because they think they're supposed to do it.
They never 'ice the QB' just before a last second play to win the game.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 5:44pm

Yes, absolutely. Without looking it up (you can do that), "icing" the kicker actually results in a slightly HIGHER FG%. So there is literally no good reason to do it, short of unique individual situations where a coach might play a hunch. But the numbers are against it.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by apk3000 :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 7:45am

It sorta made sense back in the day when you called timeout well before the teams started to line up. Then you're making the kicker think about it, in case he's a choker. But the last second icing? Seems you've already let the kicker mentally get over it and not accomplishing anything.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 2:41pm

Aaron Rodgers. Yeah, that guy.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Purds :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 3:27pm

Can the Colts get two different offensive coordinators? Pep Hamilton for when Indy is tied or behind and starting at the 30 or better, and then ANYONE less conservative for when they are ahead or backed up. He's so predictable that. It is painful to watch.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 3:47pm

Dion Jordan embarrasses himself on national TV, hitting Luck for an attempted sack...and bouncing off harmlessly, whereupon Luck runs to convert the 3rd and 12.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by James-London :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 3:52pm

Amen. Awful effort. Miami are leaking 3rd down conversions

Phil Simms is a Cretin.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by James-London :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 3:53pm

And as I post Grimes picks Luck in the Endzone

Phil Simms is a Cretin.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 3:55pm

Last thing I saw the Eagles scored the go-ahead TD then recovered a fumble on the kick. Two minutes later I come back and SD is scoring. Vick throw a warp speed int?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by TimK :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:09pm

SD got the fumble back after all...

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:11pm

That's what you get for not waiting on the review.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:00pm

Eagles-Chargers is going to come down to who scores last, it seems. Don't get stuck on offense when the music stops!

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:06pm

I haven't seen a lot of Luck so far in his career, but the way he keeps ripping out of tackles, he reminds me a lot of Rothlisberger in the pocket.

Also, Fouts seems to think Indy, with three T.O.'s, wants to conserve time, when it's Miami who needs to *save* time in case Indy scores.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by James-London :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:08pm

Luck is bloody nightmare: Is he a beast to bring down, or is Miami's D crapping on itself?

Phil Simms is a Cretin.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Anger...rising :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:09pm

The Bears just had eight men on the line of scrimmage on their winning touchdown.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:14pm

FINALLY we're able to get to him and hold him (amazing how long he was able to stand up and even fling it away if in-the-grasp wasn't called, so really, I think Luck=beast is the correct conclusion there).

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:16pm

Lamar Miller and some good blocking seals it!

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:19pm

So what did Ron Rivera do now? Twitter is buzzing with tales of his idiocy.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Nick2 (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:32pm

The same thing he does every week. Panthers are deep in Bills territory, it's 4th down, Bills are out of timeouts, 1:35 left. He kicks a FG to go up six, and you can fill in he rest.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:34pm

4th-and-1 with Cam Newton at QB, nonetheless.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Independent George :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:39pm

Has the worm turned to the point where conventional wisdom now is to go for it?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 5:49pm

As a Redskins fan, I was unhappy seeing the Packers going for an early 4th and a few, believing it to be the unequivocal smart decision. Of course, they scored a TD on the play.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Hummingbird Cyborg :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 5:58pm

Well, yes. On websites with a lot of fans of analytics.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Nick2 (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:40pm

Why try to close out the game with your goliath quarterback when you can kick a field goal to make it a (still) 1 possession game?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:50pm

Wow.

That's really dumb.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Nick2 (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 5:07pm

I blame Cam.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:21pm

Well, I officially have no idea what to make of Philly thus far. Massive offensive and scoring output in two games, but two games against teams which have shown nothing on defense on their OTHER games, but those other games were against two teams (GB/HOU) which are pretty impressive on offense themselves...

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Independent George :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:22pm

Ok, I decided to log in for the sole purpose of declaring Dan Dierdorf a moron.

Philly calling timeouts at the end of the game is counter-intuitive, but a good decision because it gave them time to run one more play after the kick. If they didn't call the timeouts, SD would have kicked at around 5 seconds, leaving no time to run another play.

Granted, if SD were more aggressive, they could have called a quick hitch to try and gain another 5 yards for the kick (since they still had a time out in their pocket. Still, that still benefits PHI, because it forces SD to run another play from scrimmage.

Is that really so hard to understand?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Brendan Scolari :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 5:21pm

Yes.

Kelly called the first timeout with 17 seconds left when the Chargers were on the ~30 yard line and content to run the clock down to 3 seconds and kick a field goal.

Instead they had plenty of time to run two more passing plays and turn a 60% kick into a 90% kick. And all Philly had to gain was one possible 80 yard Hail Mary attempt. Fortunately for him, the Chargers went ultra-conservative and just ran two dives into the line.

To me, Kelly's decision was completely and utterly boneheaded.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 5:35pm

Not that boneheaded, if we assume that Kelly's bright enough to know that almost no NFL coach would actually call a pass play to try and shorten the field given that extra time. Over and over we've seen coaches settle for a long FG attempt rather than risk the negative consequences (INT, sack, inability to get the clock stopped) of trying to get extra yardage. We just saw it in HOU/SD last week. It's especially likely that McCoy wouldn't be aggressive in a tie game. Hell, Ron Rivera wouldn't trust Cam Newton to get one yard that would win the game, so Kelly betting on an opponent playing conservative seems completely defensible.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Brendan Scolari :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 5:58pm

I differentiate between 4th down conservatism and late game conservatism.

We actually saw the opposite of what you stated last week. Houston had the ball at the 32 and threw another 8 yard pass in the waning seconds to greatly increase their odds of making the field goal. That was also a tie game.

Even without a pass, there's still the possibility one of the runs actually gains good yardage. I stand by my original point, giving the offense more plays to get close for a field goal in the hopes of one Hail Mary attempt is very poor strategy.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by craig in NS (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 6:54pm

To be more fair: in hopes of a hail mary attempt, tackle for loss/sack, turnover, or penalty.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 4:26pm

Congratulations to Aaron Rodgers for tying Matt Flynn's team passing record!

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 5:02pm

More importantly, James Starks runs for over 100 yards for the first Packers regular season 100 yd rushing game in almost 3 years.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 5:28pm

Simms (dismissing the last Giants play): Even if he (Meyers) caught it, he wouldn't have scored anyway.

Possibly true, but, uh, it would have been a first and goal on the one or two-yard-line.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Brendan Scolari :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 5:47pm

3 horrible end-game coaching moves already today:

Chip Kelly giving the Chargers two extra plays before kicking a field goal. Didn't end up mattering but still poor process.

Ron Rivera's conservative play calling with the lead and especially kicking a field goal on 4th and 1 near the goal line.

Leslie Frazier running Peterson on 3rd and goal from the 4 up by 3 and then kicking a field goal with less than 2 minutes left.

Stop it! Pulling my hair out watching teams try to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 8:38pm

Actually, the Vikings' field goal you mentioned came with 3:15 left, not with less than 2 minutes left. But I agree with you on the play calling. Too conservative.

It seems that many coaches with a defensive background tend to make such conservative decisions. (Not all, though: Bill Belichick has a defensive background, but he is much more progressive/aggressive in his decision making.) Note that Rivera and Frazier were defensive teammates on the 1985 Bears. It would be one thing to want to go up by 6 with a few minutes left if you were the 1985 Bears playing with 1985 rules and playing against 1985 quarterbacks. But with today's rules and today's QBs, it's like the offensive version of the prevent defense. It prevents you from winning.

And as I write this, Tampa Bay's late game decision making and a missed field goal let Drew Brees and Co. drive down the field in the last 30 or so seconds to win with a field goal.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 5:51pm

Is Simms physically capable of going a play without complimenting the Giants?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 6:31pm

What's up with all those stupid special teamers playing on the punt team wanting to be the first to stop the ball while it still has forward momentum.
Do they think it's "great hussle" or something?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 6:36pm

Not to be that guy, but what the hell definition of Pass Interference are the officials working from in the DEN-NYG game?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 6:38pm

The one that says "A bad thing happened to the Giants; quick, throw the flag!"

I mean, it was such a bad call that even Simms wasn't defending it.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 6:39pm

Somebody tell Jacksonville/Henne that in football you get only 4 downs to get 10 yards.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Gorilla Graham (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 6:41pm

This officiating in the Giants game is shameful. Was it announced before the game that, whenever the Giants can't catch the ball, it's interference? Pathetic. Have the Giants been flagged in this game yet?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 6:42pm

Geez. I hate when fans scream injustice, but man Gene Steratore is making it up as he goes along.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 6:44pm

I felt bad bringing it up a couple comments ago. I still feel a little dirty.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Gorilla Graham (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:59pm

Yeah, it's not my usual method, but the frustration was getting a bit much. Let's blame it on the endless rain in CO, ok?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by The Ninjalectual :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 9:25pm

You're not kidding about the rain. I might end up getting stranded at my friend's house in Manitou Springs, which is cool, because she's a big football fan AND totally cute!

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 6:44pm

Well some fumbleluck tries to even out the officiating. How nice of the football gods.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 6:47pm

Moreno with to identical TDs.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 6:49pm

Terell (sp?) Thomas is having a great day in man coverage against Welker.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 6:55pm

It hit his HEEL?! Wow I was positive it hit the ground.

Luck and fluky plays helping the Broncos here. I'll take it though.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:07pm

Look at it this way...the luck is balancing out the officials and letting the better football team win the game.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:28pm

I was wondering why they were acting like a ball that obviously bounced was live. Well, that's an uncommon one.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by James-London :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:07pm

Writes 'game over' in notebook

Phil Simms is a Cretin.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:08pm

Note to gunner, the ball hitting the ground does not mean play has ended.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:09pm

Holiday with what seems like the dagger. Picks up the punt off the second bounce, shakes a couple of Giants and is off to the races. Man what a weapon.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:15pm

Simms: "The NFL is so competitive. Did anyone think the Chargers would beat the Eagles?"

'Cause yeah, it is so unlikely that a team that was 6-10 last year would lose to roughly equal opposition.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:16pm

Er, 4-12. *puts on Simms mask*

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:38pm

Is that the FO "Cone of Shame" equivalent?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:44pm

It should be.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:20pm

Good thinking. Intercept that 50 yard pass on 4th down, and then celebrate proving you really are totally oblivious.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by The Hypno-Toad :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:26pm

And now for some more bonus Raheem Moore idiocy. Eurgh. From my thoroughly uninformed position, it looks like he just lacks football intelligence.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Hummingbird Cyborg :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 4:10am

I rolled my eyes when he made that pick on fourth down, but he has played generally well for the Broncos, so I don't mind that his pick was unnecessary and hurt field position.

Yeah, he's boneheaded a couple of plays and one that mattered in any real way, but people remember a good player for one bad play. As a Broncos fan, I'm still glad to have him on my favorite team.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 7:24pm

Is shoulder to chest against a defenseless receiver illegal this season too?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Gorilla Graham (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 8:01pm

That seemed like a reputation penalty. Moore does plenty of dumb things, but that hit looked clean to me. Hard, but clean.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 9:59pm

Ray Lewis just tweeted that Paul Allen sent down lightning to mess up the 49ers blocking sC

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 10:01pm

I like Dan Patrick, who is well-informed and usually makes astute comments. However, he just said something idiotic as he, Tony Dungy and Rodney Harrison show highlights and discuss/analyze teams during this weather delay. In discussing Brandon Weeden, he was talking about how the Browns apparently were scouting Johnny Manziel this past weekend, whether it's too soon to give up on Weeden, etc. Then he said something about how different things would have been if the Redskins hadn't traded ahead of them to get RGIII last year. He wondered how the Browns would look if they had gotten RGIII to go with their good young receivers and Trent Richardson. Hello!!! They wouldn't have Trent Richardson if they had RGIII. RGIII was the second pick in the draft in 2012. The Browns then drafted Richardson with the next pick, which would have been used to draft RGIII instead if the Redskins (or some other team) hadn't jumped ahead of the Browns to draft RGIII.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by herewegobrowniesherewego (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 11:41pm

I would much rather have Bridgewater than Ryan Leaf II if Weeden can't turn it around.

Ironically, some of those sacks may well have prevented INTs today. I still think they have a chance against Minnesota if they can sustain the run defense they've had for about 1.5 of the 2 games this season.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by bobrulz :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 10:03pm

Yeah, the officiating in the DEN-NYG game was awful. First the pass interference and taunting calls that essentially gifted the Giants a touchdown, and that unnecessary roughness penalty was questionable at best.

Luckily Denver is so good it didn't matter. I'm hardly ever one to complain about the officiating, but that was almost replacement ref-level officiating today.

In other news, the weather gods hate football.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by bobrulz :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 10:36pm

BREAKING NEWS: Justin Smith kills Max Unger at 8:06 mark of 2nd quarter in Seahawks-49ers game.

Now that is how you play defense.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Tanner (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 11:37pm

Did harbaugh just make a bad coaching decision? Down 12-0, seems kicking a figgie at the seahawks 4 yard doesn't seem to accomplish much with the 3rd qtr dwindling away....

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Tanner (not verified) :: Sun, 09/15/2013 - 11:38pm

Did harbaugh just make a bad coaching decision? Down 12-0, seems kicking a figgie at the seahawks 4 yard doesn't seem to accomplish much with the 3rd qtr dwindling away....

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Jon Goldman (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 12:04am

The Seahawks are terrifying...then I remember that they only scored 12 points on the Panthers, who proceeded to give up twice as many points to the Buffalo Freaking Bills. I love the NFL.

In other news, I will laugh for a solid 5 minutes straight if Jay Cutler becomes the new "Mr. Clutch." Not because of any on-field play belying such an assertion, but because it would be such an incredible reversal for the second biggest target of media criticism in the entirety of the NFL (Tony "my teammates are terrible and I'm probably the best QB in my division when Eli isn't doing his thing" Romo is the obvious biggest target.)

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by bobrulz :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 12:43am

Their offense doesn't seem to have totally found its rhythm yet. Part of it is that they had a 1pm east coast game against the Panthers, and then went up against a pretty good 49ers defense. Part of it could be that their offensive line is probably the weakest spot on their team.

Either way, their defense is so good it may not matter how good their offense is. That was about as good of a defensive performance as I have ever seen from any team. Can't wait to see the DVOA numbers from this game.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Jon Goldman (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 2:11am

The scariest part of their defense is that it doesn't seem predicated on events with a small chance of occurring, unlike the Bears' "we're good at making them make mistakes" defense of 2012. They utterly shut down the Niners, and looked like they broke the best O-Line in the NFL (in my opinion.) It wasn't based on taking advantage of offensive screwups, but on utterly terrorizing the other team. They don't really have any weaknesses.

Of course, this is only if you ignore that the Seahawks seem to play based on the rather ingenious idea that the officials can't call dpi on every play. But that doesn't seem likely to change soon. And even then, it's been 2 games. I'd like to wait until at least game 6 or so to crown the Seahawks.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 9:55am

I watched the Eagles game. They can.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by mrt1212 :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 2:43pm

I think that the seahawks might get penalized for more DPI but in that game where were very few close calls that I think SEA should have been called for.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DA (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 2:59am

Seattle's D matches up very well vs SF. They can load the box to stop the run and have the DB's to shut down any SF WR 1 on 1.

I think GB is a harder matchup for SEA than is SF (even is SF wins when they play at home). GB has the capacity to actually be able to throw vs SEA (unlike most teams) and can stand up better vs SEA's Offense than it can vs SF's.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DisplacedPackerFan :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 8:42am

I think you are right. San Fran is better "in the trenches" than Seattle and that is where GB is weakest (though they have secondary issues as well, even when Was wasn't sustaining the drives they still had nice per play averages). So GB doesn't match as well vs San Fran, though if they get a full strength secondary (Hayward and Burnett) San Fran has a harder time scoring.

GB has three wide receivers who can kill you, and a tight end who can kill you sometimes. They still have no running game due to sub par run blocking ability. I do think Lacy, had he not be concussed, would have done more against WAS then Starks did, but the run game will be average at best. Which would be a big improvement from horrendous.

I'm not sure how I feel about New Orleans and Chicago yet as I haven't really watched either of them much. But I think Sea, SF, and GB are the tops in the NFC and it's nice they pose different challenges and seem to be in a bit of a rock paper scissors relationship.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by mrt1212 :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 2:32pm

The ability for Seattle corners to play tight man and not give up the big play and defense short passes well covers some of the the deficiencies and injuries the Seahawks have on defense.

I was struck though by the ability to contain the lanes and just make it claustrophobic for Kaep. They didnt need to get to him per se with the tight coverage, they just needed to prevent him from escaping. Great job on that front.

The good news is, if Browner is in, then we can run a nickle package with him and thurmond and still do well in coverage. Rodgers isnt nearly the running threat that Kaep was but he can move if needed. I suppose that leaves Finley as a good matchup but Finley is very hot/cold and I dont think that GBs offense can rely on him or their running game.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Seattleite (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 9:04pm

Was that a read option by Roethlisberger or did he just make that up?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Seattleite (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 9:07pm

Was that a read option by Roethlisberger or did he just make that up?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DRohan :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 10:08pm

I saw the WR on that side simply stop and turn around like the play was over. Didn't look like he expected Ben to be coming around his way.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Seattleite (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 9:11pm

What's this challenge going to accomplish? It's a fumble, yes, but the play was clearly blown dead by the officials immediately. You can't count anything after that, and you can't guess who would have recovered had they not blown it dead.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Seattleite (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 9:13pm

Holy crap. This is wrong. This is really wrong. If you blow the play dead it is dead. Paulson was is good position to recover that if it hadn't been blown dead. What is he supposed to do, keep playing after the whistle?

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 9:34pm

I agree, it was strange, although it looked like Paulson was looking around for the ball after he got up but had no idea where it was. I think there was a 99% chance the Bengals would have recovered had the whistle not been blown, but I don't think that's how the rule works.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Andrew Potter :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 10:12pm

That's exactly what he's supposed to do. It's a terrible rule, but that's the rule: if there's a clear recovery, they can overturn an incomplete pass to a fumble.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Seattleite (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 10:17pm

Not if the play is blown dead. That's the rule. Anything that happens after the play is blown dead is not reveiwable.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by tuluse :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 10:32pm

They changed the rule after the Culter non-fumble so you can infact change what happens after the whistle is blown.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Tue, 09/17/2013 - 1:44am

The Cutler change pertained to whether a play ruled an incomplete pass could be reviewed as to whether the ball came out prior to beginning the passing motion. It didn't have anything to do with whether you could review what happens after the whistle is blown. The presumptive reason for this would be that you cannot know what would have happened without the whistle, and you cannot encourage players to continue play ignoring the whistle. The NFL rules are not ambiguous on this point.

Under 7-2-1 Dead Ball Declared:
n)when an official sounds his whistle erroneously while the ball is still in play the ball becomes dead immediately...
iii) if the ball is a loose ball resulting from a fumble ... the team last in possession may elect to put the ball in play at the spot where possession was lost or to replay the down

That's enough evidence right there since it's explicit, but for good measure:

"2-1 Ball in play" defines a play as lasting until the down ends, and the down ends when a deal ball is declared. This is whether under 7-2-1 n) iii) as mentioned above or by the normal "down by contact" rule in 7-2-1 a). So anything that happens after that is not part of a play, and the list of what can be reviewed in Article 9 which is specifically said to be exhaustive, "The Replay System will cover the following play situations only" doesn't contain anything other than that which is part of a play.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by tuluse :: Tue, 09/17/2013 - 2:51pm

I'm not 100% sure about this rule, but your recollection of the Cutler play is incorrect.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200809140den.htm
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3594778

The play was ruled an incomplete pass on the field. Replay overturned that and changed the ruling to a fumble, but they couldn't award possession to the Chargers because the whistle had already blown.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Seattleite (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 9:32pm

Wow. Gay was waaay offsides on that field goal try. He's fortunate it didn't matter.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 10:11pm

One of these teams looks overmatched and it's not the Bengals.

edit: and then the Steelers get a TD drive. (shrug)

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 10:35pm

This game is making me think the Titans might be pretty decent. The Bengals are fairly solid, and the Steelers are playing them tight so the Steelers are possibly respectable, and the Titans throttled the Steelers in Pittsburgh and took the Texans to OT in Houston.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by FoosBaller (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 10:44pm

The Steelers finally get a big play and it comes back on a phantom trip.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by FoosBaller (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 11:17pm

Pay attention everyone. It is now possible to jump offsides without actually moving.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DRohan :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 11:19pm

How is it that every Steelers opponent becomes historically sure-handed? As tough as they can be from a yardage perspective, they just cannot force a turnover. And that is a recipe for "bad luck".

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by FoosBaller (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 11:40pm

Whitworth tried to pick a fight with Polamalu, so obviously Woodley gets flagged.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Mon, 09/16/2013 - 11:51pm

For once, the commentators explained that one pretty clearly. Whitworth and Polamalu tussling wasn't drawing anything, but Woodley rushing in to pile on/escalate/what have you drew the flag.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Tue, 09/17/2013 - 12:04am

Seems like that terrible tripping call (basically a 48 yard penalty) really was the turning point, Steelers were on their way to getting points before that killed their drive.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Tue, 09/17/2013 - 1:12am

That and the post-hoc fumble nonsense were two major officiating gaffes that both killed momentum on rare occasions the Steelers managed to get any. THe Steelers played poorly and probably would have lost anyway, but the zebras gave the Bengals a ton of help.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Splaticus (not verified) :: Tue, 09/17/2013 - 3:10am

The fumble rule wasn't incorrect. It was changed in ~2006 that recoveries after the whistle can happen if it's clear (google search will help). The rule cited in these comments is for inadvertent whistles. This wasn't a inadvertent whistle, the refs were ruling the player down by contact and blowing the whistle. Per the list of challenge-able plays:

"2. Runner ruled down by defensive contact when the recovery of a fumble by an opponent or a teammate occurs in the action that happens following the fumble."

Since the whistle is supposed to sound when someone is ruled down, the only way this rule makes any sense is if the "action following the fumble" is also the action after the whistle.

Here's even a yahoo article on how it's weird:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/The-greatly-flawed...

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Tue, 09/17/2013 - 2:19pm

That article does a good job explaining why such a rule would be bad. I did a pretty thorough job in 243 showing why the ruling was faulty. Where you've made your mistake is conflating "action following the fumble" with "action following the whistle".

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Splat :: Tue, 09/17/2013 - 9:36pm

Did you read the article? The first line:

"Since 2006, a whistle hasn't always been a whistle in the NFL. In that off-season the rules committee made the determination that teams can recover a fumble even after an official has blown the play dead. " As in, the rule exists. Not "hey this rule would suck if it exist".

And my conflating is accurate.

Play sequence:

Running fumbles ball right before hitting ground.
Referee blows whistle assuming it was down by contact.
Opposing player picks up the fumble.

Prior to 2007, Down by contact was not a reviewable play, because the whistle would in theory stop everyone from trying to recover any fumble. This was changed. the "Action after the fumble" includes who picks it up if it is a clear recovery in replay by one team.

Your discussion in 243 talks about an erroneous whistle, which is if the referee didn't MEAN to blow it, but that is not the case we're talking about.

Here's another link and a quote! (based on cutler)
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3589407
"For example, until March 2007, down-by-contact plays were not reviewable. That rule was changed so that they were reviewable, and if a fumble occurred even after the whistle blew, the team recovering it got possession."

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Tue, 09/17/2013 - 11:16pm

I read the article, which is why I said that it explains well why such a rule would be bad. I know they also went on to explain that this is in fact the rule. Either they've changed the rules since that article was written, or the article misunderstood the rules in the same way you misunderstand them, and perhaps yours comes from reading theirs.

Look, I'm not just inventing this stuff. It's spelled out in the book, and I even provided the quotes from it. Maybe this will help, there are two possible times when you could say that a play has ended. Either the play ends when the official says it has ended or it ends when it should have ended. Would you agree that those are the only two possibilities? If it's the former then the play ends when the whistle blows and anything that happens after that is not a play and hence not reviewable. If it's the latter then the whistle was erroneous and hence control remains with the team in possession.

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Re: Week 2 Open Discussion Thread
by Splat :: Tue, 09/17/2013 - 11:51pm

I would agree those would likely be the two possibilities, and I'd say the first. The play is dead when he's ruled down. Oh wait, you can challenge the ruling of the player being down!

So is your argument:
That they amended the rule to challenge the ruling of the player being down, where the only POSSIBLE application of it is when the referee DOESN'T blow the whistle when he rules the guy down, and then there's a fumble recovery? Like, it only ever matters if the ref really screwed up in a different way, an inadvertent non-whistle?

That somehow, despite this being a nationally televised game, there's been no outrage about it? Neither coach has mentioned it? The broadcasters even properly figured out the ruling before the ref said it?

That Mike Pereira, who is paid MONEY to point out when the new refereeing regime screws up, has not mentioned it? Maybe because this same thing has happened multiple times since the rule change and he's explained it?:
https://twitter.com/MikePereira/statuses/155833061286752257
http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2012/1/7/2690702/drew-brees-fumble-video-lio...

That maybe a blog dedicated to disecting calls would also point this out? Nope! They're on board.
http://www.footballzebras.com/2012/01/14/2650/

That no columnist has picked it up? Despite the outrage when Hochuli made an equally game changing call that was _actually_ wrong?

Maybe, MAYBE the correct answer is the rules aren't worded very well, but the system everyone's been playing under for years now allows, on replay, a clear fumble recovery to be awarded after the whistle.

Or the whole football world is out to punk you. Ashton Kutcher hates you for some reason.