Talk amongst yourselves
7/25: GB TE, HOU WR, KC RB/WR, WAS IDP.
7/22: Incorporated Watt injury, Bell suspension.
7/20: IDP players now included
* * * * *
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25 Sep 2011
Here's a place to discuss all of the Week 3 games as they are going on!
Posted by: Aaron Schatz on 25 Sep 2011
125 replies , Last at
27 Sep 2011, 8:14pm by
Watching NE/Buf. So far there have been 9 pass attempts, and 1 hit the ground.
Has that game been as fun so far as it sounds?
Depends on how you feel about defense. If you think it's overrated, this game is for you. I'm loving it.
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4th and 14, rather than attempt a ~52 field goal, the Bills go for it, and Fitzpatrick tries to force a throw and gets picked off. Gutsy decision to go for it, though.
Did I understand the highlight correctly that Vick is out?
Brady's never had any targets? Doesn't look it today. Gronkowski and Welker get open every play.
From Sports Pickle's Twitter: "Bills just got ridiculous penalties for hits on Woodhead and Welker. The NFL is now protecting midgets just like they do quarterbacks."
The Detroit punter just got called for a facemask. That has to be a rare event.
Can the Vikings blow a 20-point halftime lead this week?
Well your regularly scheduled Vikings implosion is beginning right on time. (Let's go Lions!) Though as a Lions fan I'm pretty sure we're due for a beating after last week, so I'm assuming we won't manage the comeback until it actually happens. /years of losing.
"When you absolutely don't know what to do any more, then it's time to panic." - Johann van der Wiel
They fumble, then punt, allowing a 20 yard return and a few huge passes resulting in a quick td for detroit. Im just guessing.
The Vikings have been outscored 14-0 in the 4th quarter each week. The Lions therefore waited until after the start of the 4th quarter to punch that drive in, thus setting them up nicely.
Yes. Yes, they can.
At this point the Vikings are just putting on some kind of modern performance art right?
The announcers in the NE/Bills game got Woodhead and Welker mixed up. All white guys look alike?
During the Giants-Eagles halftime highlights, the studio guy called Tom Brady "Manning." Whatever your think of that confusion, it's hard to imagine two white guys who look less alike.
Bill walton and vern troyer.
Michael Jackson and Andre the Giant.
Jackson doesn't count, he said "guys."
The Pats two biggest plays have been passes to Gronk, who I am pretty sure is the slowest receiver on their team.
John Lynch has mentioned Mariano Rivera more than any of the players actually in the Det@Min game.
The vikings, not content with blowing a 17-0 lead last week, are poised to blow a 20-0 lead this week.
Once again after being efficient all first half they have suddenly failed to convert anything in the second half, starting with three consecutive 3-and-outs. THe last one a 3rd and 1 and they decide to throw it (incomplete).
Didn't you predict this would happen?
No, I predicted they would be up by 7 and lose by 17.
sigh. and now, 4th and 1, in Lions territory in field goal range, Frazier lets Peterson talk him into going for it. So they hand it off.... to Gerheart, who isn't close. Just shoot this team now.
Vikings have successfully blown a 20 point lead as of now.
Of course, the game's currently tied, so we don't have a final winner yet, but the accomplishment's there.
The Vikings manage one more 3-and out and punt again. Which means detroit needs maybe 15 yards to kick the game winner. And Frazier passed on an easy FG earlier.
Oh, on first play the Vikings get a personal foul to put them in easy FG range. Detroit is now just milking clock but will probably get a td.
Not objecting to getting the lead, but I'm worried the Vikes decide to just hand off to AP for the next 2 minutes for the win.
I know they made it after the penalty but I don't like the giants going for two there. Surely you make it a five point lead so if the Eagles score a td you win with a FG not tie?
Uh, oh. I can see the zebra discussion coming in the NE/Buffalo game recap, no matter who wins.
Yeah, pretty much everyone other than morganja would agree that the PI in the endzone was really rather ticky-tack.
Oh, no doubt. That really is a tough call because Nelson clearly wasn't given a chance to come back to the ball (and that defender wasn't looking to play the ball but did impede Nelson), yet even if Nelson is allowed to come back toward the ball, the second NE defender, who intercepted, was clearly in better position to catch the ball.
I mean, I think you have to make the call, but it doesn't seem right.
No way that gets called if it's a Hail Mary pass. They absolutely could have declined to call it.
True, but it wasn't a Hail Mary in that the ref had only 3 guys to watch, not 8 or 10.
But, let's say the second NE defender wasn't there to intercept, is the play likely PI? I think so. So why do you not call it?
I think it's unfair, but the right call.
Each team had a drive that was basically half penalties, NE's just ended with an interception.
And your point is? NFL officiating isn't designed to be socialist.
They're just trying to be like NBA refs -- make up calls?
I wouldn't know - I don't watch professional wrestling.
AGREED! I am so happy that there is an NBA lockout. I do dorm duty at a private school, and after study hall, no having the TV on NBA junk in the common room.
What about the roughing the passer call that got the Bills out of the shadow of their own endzone a couple of plays prior to the PI call? I couldn't see anything at all questionable about the hit. The defender made contact milliseconds after the ball left Fitzpatrick's hand, he didn't lead with his helmet, he made a clean tackle around the waist, not high or low, and didn't drive the QB into the ground especially.
The other roughing the passer was a good call (clearly helmet-to-helmet), but I don't get this one...
You're right. The angle they showed didn't show diddly in terms of roughing. The ref said "blow to the head," but from the view they gave us, the only remote chance of a blow to the head was on the way to the ground, after they fell away from the camera. I didn't see it.
What is up with these Bills
Still plenty of time to choke.
Uh oh, trouble in heaven (Ocho! On-No!)
More like Ocho-Stinko.
The Win Probability graph for the Buf-NE game is amazing: http://live.advancednflstats.com/index.php?gameid1=2011092502
Rich Gannon: You got some options here, you can run it, or you can throw it. Well, that about covers it.
This is a very un-BB/Brady drive here.
Better for the Pats if this is a TD now.
If no TD, let Buffalo just run it in here and keep your timeouts?
Classic! BB is arguing that the Bills scored. I would argue too!
Well, congrats to the Bills.
Yeah, it's hard not to like these Bills, even if they did just knock off my Pats to take the division lead.
So, the Niners have demonstrated the ability to win a nondivision road game. Is it too early to declare them NFC West champs?
Aaaaand that's game! 3-0 for the Lions, but would it kill Detroit to find a running game one of these weeks?
If there was any point in NFL history for a team to not have a running game, it's now. The NFL has started to look like the early 2000s WAC.
And the Vikings complete the collapse.
So to recap, first half: Vikings 54, opponents 7. After halftime: Opponents 67, Vikings 6.
If the Vikings and Bills were to play a game we could see a 42 point comeback...
Yet another overtime ending that doesn't do justice to regulation.
If you don't want to lose in OT, don't give up 40 and 17 yard pass plays. Defense counts in winning/losing games in OT, too.
Not my team. What you said doesn't change the fact that it was an unappealing ending (except for Detroit fans).
What exactly was unappealing about it?
Stop playing dumb. There's a reason the OT rules got changed for the playoffs.
Glad to know never to ask you to clarify anything.
There's a difference between "not appealing" (which cheap FG OT wins in general are) and "not doing justice to regulation" - and somehow a cheap FG OT win really does seem like the appropriate ending to any game with a blown 20 point lead vs. a team with no running game.
As a Lions fan, I think it did complete justice to (the second half of) regulation.
As one of those people who hate sudden death OT and much prefer the soccer rules (either no OT or play out the whole period), I'm never entirely satisfied with FG OT wins. A TD win is at least plausible even with sudden death rules, while FG wins feel a little cheap.
Wait, what? Soccer rules? Where they decide the winner with an arbitrary mini-game that is essentially a big match of rock paper scissors? That has to be the worst "overtime" setup in all of sports.
A penalty shootout only occurs after a full period (30mins) of extra time. I assume that is what is being suggested not a field goal competition.
(I say this as a Jets fan) Mark Sanchez, lowest football IQ since... jeez, what an awful decision.
To be fair to him though, apart from that one and the one that was almost picked off in the end zone, he's been for the most part making decent decisions and has been fairly accurate. Unfortunately there have been quite a few drops.
He's so frustrating. Looks great, then looks awful, the looks great again...
He did play well today. D and ST let us down.
I didn't want to jinx it until now, but I think they finally killed that hideous Fiat commercial. That's got to be the early favorite for worst commercial of the season. It was so bad, I got nostalgic for "This Is Our Country".
All he does is catch TDs for the Ravens. 3 catches, 133 yds, 3 TD, 1 quarter of play.
Rookie deep threat they took in the second round. Supposedly very fast with great burst but lots of questions about his hands.
His hands have looked pretty good so far, the Rams coverage on the other hand.
So,,,,is there any good reason the Chiefs just ran Thomas "Grandpa" Jones on 3rd and 11 inside the SD 20? How &%@#ing scared is the coaching staff?!
Somewhere, FireOmarTomlin just burst a blood vessel.
Woah, how nice it is to realize I had completely forgotten about the existence of FireOmarTomlin.
Wait a second there. The Austin Collie is clearly half a yard short, the ref signals fourth down, and somehow it ends up 1st and 10? The ball was even spotted half a yard short of the prior first down mark for the first down play.
When was the last time you saw a chain measurement in the NFL?
I've seen a bunch of 9.5-yard conversions this year in both the NFL and NCAA, and wish I knew what was going on.
It actually happened again early on the Colts' touch down drive, although in that case it was the more mundane variety of just giving an inordinately generous spot.
Not only are the Colts dominating the middle of the line of scrimmage on defense, but their pursuit in the run game has been superb.
If the Colts' defense had been this good over the last 5 years they would have at least 2 superbowls, maybe 3.
I think the up-front dominance has at least as much to do with terrible o-line play, but the rest was good.
How did Legursky's injury look? I''m "watching" via play-by-play unfortuanately...
Washington looked good on that first drive, which has me mildly concerned. LEt's see how Dallas does with the ball. First play is a run. I'm guessing we'll see a lot of that...
Dallas looked OK on its first series, but lots of runs and lots of passes designed to get the ball off quickly so Romo doesn't become such a target.
Dallas also did better on Washington's second series, but I don't like giving them those third-and-short situations...
And on Dallas' next series there's a hold-- I expect these guys were told to do that if things get dire. Better risk the penalty than risk losing Romo.
I don't think that this challenge of the fumble will work. The Washington player slips and his foot clearly slides along the line, making him out of bounds. He touches the ball while in the air (but after his foot slipped out from under him). You don't suddenly become in bounds after that.
Tirico seems to disagree. Perhaps I'm missing what makes the first guy out of bounds, though.
Yeah. Overruled. I don't like the call, but I'm not familiar with the rules enough, I guess.
Wow. Nice defensive series by Dallas-- and some uncreative play-calling by Washington. And a potential disaster turns into something slightly smaller.
It's been a fast first Q, and being down 3 points for Dallas isn't so bad, I don't think.
Yikes. Dallas gets a nice pick, and runs two nice plays, but on third and short, even Gruden's calling the play. If Gruden can predict what's coming, you know that SOMEONE on the Washington defense is expecting it. Not a great third down, and now it's tied up 6-6 in a field goal fest.
I see. So to avoid the leading-with-the-helmet rule, the DBs now just put their forearm up just before the spear.
Washington is getting the upper hand on offense, it seems.
At the half, it's been an odd game. I feel like Dallas is just playing not to lose here, which isn't a great football strategy. Their running game continues to suck. Ed Wener is claiming that Garret hasn't tailored his play-calling to Romo's injury, but I don't buy that at all.
And that drive was a series of incredible blunders. Romo made an incredible save with that botched snap-- truly incredible-- but then turns around and throws a pick. Of course, long picks on third down are effectively a punt with a good return, so it's not the end of the world. But you have to wonder about Romo's ability to hit the deep pass with his ribs.
The Romo-love by ESPN is baffling. On the play when he got a snap he didn't expect and nearly lost 20 yards because he's not on the same page as his center, they praise him for making a completion for 2 yards.
On the next play, facing a blitz, Romo makes a pass to a wide-open Redskins defender. Now I have to listen to Mike Tirico and Jon Gruden explain how it's the fault of the receiver for not being where Romo was going to throw the ball.
Isn't it the QB's job to make sure that the ball is within ten yards of the nearest receiver??
Clearly, the bad snap was the Center's fault, no Romo's. He turned a play that virtually every other QB would have sat on for a sack-- if they'd even gotten the ball-- and turned it into positive yardage.
On the following play, it's unclear if Romo just couldn't get the ball far enough or if the WR didn't run the right route, but the sort of discussion is hardly some sort of Romo-love; plenty of QBs get the credit when they throw picks because a WR didn't run the right route.
Given that most passes are thrown long before a WR is within 10 yards of the target destination, these situations are a bit more complex. If Romo expects a WR to be at a certain spot but the WR goes the wrong way, it's hard to blame it on the QB.
...and yet we usually blame the QB. It's not like the WR's route is some kind of mystery whose success or failure is only visible at the point in time when the ball is delivered. You can look at where the WR is running and have some idea of where he's going to be. It's not a situation where a WR was supposed to make a late cut in one direction and did something else instead.
The pass was nowhere near the receiver.
99 times out of 100, the QB takes the blame for that.
Well, Gruden just blamed Romo for not throwing away the pass 1 second before he was blindsided by a rusher he could not see.
Basically, Gruden is an idiot.
...and yet we usually blame the QB. It's not like the WR's route is some kind of mystery whose success or failure is only visible at the point in time when the ball is delivered. You can look at where the WR is running and have some idea of where he's going to be. It's not a situation where a WR was supposed to make a late cut in one direction and did something else instead. Well, perhaps I'm recalling my football differently. As for the play in question, I'd have to watch it again, but it looks like Romo released it expecting the WR to make a cut at a certain angle, when in fact the WR took a few more steps and then angled in less sharply. So yes, it looked me me exactly like the WR was supposed to make one certain cut, and did something else instead.
That said, we have no idea what the ACTUAL play was, or of there was some sort of automatic hot-read route given that Washington was really blitzing hard.
As for "99 times out of 100, the QB takes the blame for the pass being "nowhere near the receiver", I seriously doubt it. While there are plenty of cases where a QB just doesn't put the ball where he's supposed to, I am quite sure that when there's a miss, it's not 99% of the time on the QB.
We often hear of WRs being poor route-runners. Indeed, we're watching Dallas' 3rd down play down for the touchdown where the WR just stopped on his route while Romo was expecting him to keep going. Odds are that this was the WR's fault, not Romo's.
But yes, I do agree that blaming Romo for not seeing the rusher is crazy. Yes, QBs should have that "internal clock" but Romo had just gotten set up; he has to assume that his OL is going to defend longer than that.
BTW, how do you know the bad snap was the center's fault? I would think the most we could say is that it was either his fault or the QBs.
Well, let's see. Tony Romo's been running the same offense for about 6 years now. The Center is a 2nd year player who was a back-up last year. We've seen Romo stand in the shotgun and make protection calls and adjust the play at the line a dozen times a game for years. But now, we're to assume that Romo suddenly has forgotten what he's been doing and the Center is the one who is making the right calls.
Meanwhile, when we watch after the play and Romo is pantomiming to the Center that he should think, the Center isn't objecting, but stands like a scolded puppy. But still, it's Romo's fault? Come on.
I was asking "how you know?" I wasn't claiming definitively either way.
I saw a QB yelling at somebody. If I yell at somebody after I make a mistake, does that mean I didn't make a mistake? Have you never seen somebody make a mistake and try to pass the blame off on somebody else?
Sorry, I just don't see what you have to make a conclusion. "Romo's a 6th year player" Yep, and he's not a very good one, either. He's one who's notorious for making bad decisions.
Well, in general, the QB gives an indication that he's ready for the snap. This is basic high school stuff. The Center doesn't snap until the QB indicates that he's ready. You'd have to assume that Romo gives the "snap the ball signal" and then says "oh wait, I think I want to double-check the linebacker situation". Which is stupid.
You can say that Romo isn't a very good player, and that's fine. I seriously couldn't care less what you think of him. But to assert that the center is the one who is correct and the QB is somehow screwing up when the ball is snapped before he's ready suggests that you really are just looking to play up some "Romo sucks" meme. It's tired and old, but if it's your thing, then go for it.
Still looking for the part where I assert something.
If I disagree with your conclusion about something, that doesn't automatically mean that I'm asserting the opposite.
I've edited out the snark, so let me start from the beginning:
I was asking "how you know?" I wasn't claiming definitively either way.
I should have addressed this more clearly; I apologize.
Here's how it works-- or at least, how it worked when I played football in high school, and how I've heard friends who played in college, and heard heard commentators, coaches, and media people on TV and radio talk about it in regards to college and the pros.
In virtually every instance, the QB is always the one who indicates that he's ready for the snap. Even in loud games when you're going on a silent count, a QB under center will give the C a little "goose" to indicate that he's ready for the snap.
In the shotgun (admittedly not so common back in the early 90's), the QB would indicate that he's ready with something like that leg-raise you see Manning do, or a hand gesture. The QB might then give some sort of cadence ("Hut hut!" or "Ready go!" or something), but he only does that after he's indicated that he's set. Given that the QB spends the first moments out of the huddle checking protections, reviewing the defense and in some cases making audibles, it doesn't make much sense for the C to determine when to make the snap. In fact, only the opposite makes sense: the QB goes through is pre-snap reads, etc., then he indicates to the C that he's ready, and then the C settles and makes the snap.
We can imagine some rare cases where the QB might indicate that he's ready, but become distracted by, say, a LB or SS rushing up to indicate a blitz, or an offensive player motioning/not motioning when he shouldn't/should. But, again, those aren't common.
Whatever you think of the above (though, I assure you that it's right), in regards to this game, I'm right as Costa admitsf to the errors: admittedly due to what sounds like some fairly devious/unsportsmanlike (and rule-breaking?) play by Washington.
If by unsportsmanlike you mean brilliant. Unless of course that's illegal. If it's illegal then trying to get away with it is unsportsmanlike. If there's no rule, then in my opinion it's right there with icing the kicker or lining up hoping to draw an offsides with no intention to snap the ball.
It's not permitted.
Then, yeah, it's pretty bad. It's not like it's a borderline thing "oh he hit him a fraction of a second too late." Either you did it or not. That makes it worse in my view since you are actively trying to gain a competitive advantage doing something that is outlawed.
Ugh. A blown TD and Dallas settles for yet another FG. They did get a nice run for once, and Romo looks to be accurate. They miss Miles Austin, though.
I'm not convinced that the defense is going to be able to keep up against Washington. They seemed to have found a way to generate these long 5- and 6-yard runs, and that's not good for Dallas...
This looks like the Dallas of early last year. Lots of mistakes, a lack of focus. Gutsy call, though: going for it on 4th and 6... but that's marked by another blunder, as they have to call a time-out because of confusion. Dallas' bye week can't come soon enough.
.... and they punt. Which figures. Now they'll let the Dallas defense play, but it's not clear to me that they're going to stop this Washington offense.
Skins blew this game on 3rd and 21. Gotta make the stop there.
...and then Hightower converts on 2nd and 17. Hmm...maybe it's not over yet.
Gaffney chooses the 1st down over the sideline.
Gruden thinks he's wrong. Does that mean Gaffney was right? No - he just thought he could get both and made a mistake.
Ugh. Under 2 minutes to play, Dallas has a 1 point lead. After a good start, Washington has started marching and looks good. One time out left and 41 seconds...
Is this the most points ever by a team that didn't score a touchdown?
I remember the Broncos winning a game 23-21 on 7 FG and a safety in the late 80s/early 90s
I was completely off on the teams but not the circumstance... Vikings over Rams. Oddly the kicker was Rich Karlis, who I always associated with the Broncos, the brain works in weird ways.
No, Dallas once won a game about 15 years ago kicking 7 FGs, which I think is the NFL record (held by several players). But in that particular game (it was when Barry Switzer was coaching), those were Dallas' only points.
I don't know if anyone has done more (e.g. 7 FGs and a safety or whatever), though.
You guys are right. Using PFR Game Finder, 4 teams have topped it (scoring over 18 points with no touchdowns), led by the 1989 Vikings with 23 points in a 23-21 overtime win (that must be the one you were thinking of, Biebs) and including 21 from the 1996 Cowboys. 5 other teams have matched the Cowboys' 18. So the 2011 Cowboys become the 10th team ever to score 18+ points without a touchdown. How many of those 10 teams won the game?
23-21, 1989 Vikings over Rams (with an overtime safety)
21-6, 1996 Cowboys over Packers
21-7, 2007 Bengals over Ravens
20-17, 1994 Bengals over Seahawks (with an overtime field goal)
18-17, 1972 Eagles over Oilers
18-17, 1972 Jets over Saints
18-12, 1993 Chargers over Seahawks
18-17, 1993 Chargers over Oilers (two weeks later)
18-10, 2006 Rams over Broncos
18-16, 2011 Cowboys over Redskins
Grossman fails to show that rear-view radar that Gruden thinks every QB should have. Fumbles instead of throwing the ball away. (Did he think he could scramble for meaningful yardage?)
The Redskin offense is starting to gel into something good, but they are still constrained by the fact that Grossman's ceiling just isn't very high.
Jon Gruden thinks "this is one of the great victories in Tony Romo's career as a quarterback!" Really? Wow. I'm not a huge Romo fan, but he's certainly had much bigger victories than this one.
Jon Gruden thinks "this is one of the great victories in Tony Romo's career as a quarterback!" Really? Wow. I'm not a huge Romo fan, but he's certainly had much bigger victories than this one.
Yeah, I agree (as a Romo fan). I think that his comments were more because of the broken rib situation, and how the Dallas offense seemed to have been filled out by a lot of people who had no idea what was going on. There were like 4 bad snaps (one saved incredibly by Romo) and a number of poor routes run by his WRs.
It was a nice win, but we'll see if it's all in vain. Dallas has a lot of problems that I'd hoped were gone with the Wade era; perhaps we all were too optimistic...
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