Talk amongst yourselves
Top 35 quarterbacks charted for 2015 with scouting notes. PDF only $9.99
Click here to buy PDF version
Need help on FanDuel or DraftKings? Purchase a subscription from the website that specializes in daily fantasy.
22 Sep 2013
Discuss the Battle for Andy Reid and other NFL games in this handy thread. That's an order.
Posted by: Rivers McCown on 22 Sep 2013
237 replies , Last at
24 Sep 2013, 10:37am by
It's time to start firing Panther coaches.
So, does Chip Kelly's offense also help a team come back from quickly being down by 10?
And, to answer my own question, yes.
I'm going to go with yes.
What's with all the rollouts?
Shouldn't the fumble have been an illegal snap? It never touched a back...
More to the point, that's a 5 yard penalty, but no loss of possession.
I'm pretty sure KC would decline that penalty.
It works like a false start -- there's no play to take. A condition for a play to result is that a legal snap occurs.
Rule 7, Section 6, Article 4
It doesn't have to be touched. Did you read the rules you posted?
Article 4: Legal Snap
A snap is a backward pass. The snap must be received by a player who is not on
the line at the snap, unless the ball first strikes the ground. If the ball first strikes the ground, or is muffed by an eligible backfield receiver, or quarterback under center it can be recovered and advanced by any player.
Penalty: For snapping the ball to an ineligible snap receiver: Loss of five yards from the line of scrimmage. The whistle shall be blown immediately.
The snap struck the arm of the guard prior to contacting the ground, or being touched by Vick.
By rule, that's an illegal snap, and an immediate stoppage of play. That is not a fumble.
How do you figure that? The ball was not snapped TO the guard. He didn't receive the snap, nor did he muff it. The ball hit the ground, therefore it's a fumble.
Although that wasn't the intention, the ball *was* snapped to the guard.
It did not *first* strike the ground.
Under the rules -- that was an illegal snap and not a fumble.
No, that's not what happened. You're interpreting the rule totally wrong. The ball was snapped, it careened off the guard's arm (en route to the QB), and hit the ground. It was in no way snapped *to* him.
The offense does not need to declare who will receive the snap -- obviously, Philly ran a swinging gate in the same game.
The ball was snapped, careened off the center's thigh, and hit the guard in the arm. He functionally muffed the snap.
According to the rule, the ball becomes a fumble IFF:
1. Hit ground first.
2. Muffed by eligible backfield receiver.
3. Fumbled by eligible backfield receiver.
None of the three were satisfied. What was satisfied was an illegal primary touch by a lineman.
This is a 5 yard penalty and not a fumble. If you disagree, please cite the relevant rule and why throwing the ball off the guard first satisfies that definition.
You already cited the relevant rule. How about you try to cite an example of your interpretation being upheld in a game?
Works a little differently when the QB is under center, but it's the same rule. It's not necessarily a fumble just because the ball hits the ground.
Check 7.2.4 on this page, too.
Also mind this rule -- the defense can't intercept the snap. The snap only occurs when it completes contact with either the ground or someone in the backfield. A touch before that, by anyone else, makes it an illegal snap (on either the offense or defense).
I can't find a direct source for this occurring in the NFL prior to this week, but the rules do contemplate it occurring. It's just so amazingly rare.
Although Peyton Manning has fallen afoul of a variation on the same theme:
Shady is grabbing his knee.
This looks bad.
jogged off the field - could have been much worse.
Looks like it may be OK. But it would totally suck if he's hurt.
This end to the half must feel like Deja vu for the Eagles fans.
Maybe. I think we're seeing exactly why SF was willing to trade Alex Smith.
I don't understand why people thought Alex Smith was a valuable commodity.
He's been bad his entire career, then looks average for a year when they surround him with elite talent, but still gets outplayed by a rookie and loses his job.
It's incidental to your point, but Kaepernick wasn't a rookie when he took over as the 49ers' starter.
Alex Smith was 9th in DVOA last year (14.8%) and 14th (3.1%) the year before. That's not anything like "bad his entire career."
Andy Reed is such a buffoon. How about getting a play called on 4th and 1 instead of arguing with the ref? They could have done a quick out, picked up some yards, and kicked a FG. Eagles CB's were playing way off.
It's not an Andy Reid game unless he horribly mismanages the clock.
+1+1+1+1 (you get the idea)
The radio announcers were ripping Kelly going for two on the touchdown,
particularly with a "college formation".
Since I didn't see it, was the play call really that bad?
On the other hand, I've never seen a snap *that* diagonal occur in the NFL.
I have. The Bears ran a play like that in 1997 against the Dolphins. I don't remember the details, but I distinctly remember that they used the swinging gate play. I also remember that game was moved from Sunday to Monday night because the Marlins had a World Series game at the stadium on Sunday night.
Eagles fans cheered Andy Reid before the game. Then Michael Irvin complimented Eagles fans for their class in doing so. Now they are cheering for Donovan McNabb as his number is retired. I fear that the end of the world is near.
Remember, Philadelphia fans usually love their stars after they retire. It's just while they're playing that they're booed.
Or when they're drafted in the case of McNabb.
Reid left just last year after a miserable season, and McNabb hasn't been gone that long. As for Irvin's comment, it just seems jarring to hear him compliment Eagles fans when the first thing I think of with Irvin in Philadelphia is Eagles fans cheering loudly when Irvin was seriously injured at the Vet years ago.
Didn't he say that he understood their booing, because "I'd been killing them for 10 years"? I would swear I heard him
say that somewhere...
Rick, Can Smith even throw for more than 30 yards? It looks like Philly is practically daring him to throw deep on early downs.
Donnie Avery 7/7 140 yards, 5 first downs and the other two "successful" by FO standards. Avery had horrible advanced stats in Indy last year, maybe he got more DYAR tonight than all last season.
Edit: last year he had -61 DYAR so that is certainly true.
Was he running this well last year? Seems like he's back to his rookie year speed.
So, the play where Charles' helmet came off wasn't an illegal offensive spearing because why? Because he certainly dipped his head and struck a defender in the open field with the crown of his helmet.
Wasn't this a point of emphasis?
Or do new safety rules only count when they are imposed on the defense?
Only if it negatively affects passing.
I'm going to assume because contact had already been initiated by other defenders when jamaal lowered his head, and the purpose of lowering the head was not to deliver a blow but to shield himself from contact. Just a guess
It hadn't. Charles had actually bumped into his own lineman.
Funny how the Eagles managed to never come close to winning, but they still exposed the Chief's weaknesses. Also, this game answered the eternal question: what do you prefer, an exciting but flawed QB who makes a lot of mistakes, or a sound boring one who takes good care of the ball?
The man with no sig
That was really a question? If you'd said "good" instead of "exciting", maybe someone has asked it at some point... but I don't think anyone mistakes Vick for "Good" anymore.
I guess I didn't realize he was this bad. I thought he might still be better than Alex Smith.
Vick was facing the Chief's defense
Smith was facing the Eagle's defense
Vick is a highly variable quantity. If/when he's focused, he can still have very good games. I think his peak is considerably higher than Alex Smith's. But he's definitely more mistake-prone.
Going to the FO stats: among QBs, through two weeks Vick was #4 in DYAR and #3 in DVOA. So there's certainly an argument to be made that he's at least "good."
Well, the very web site you are posting on has Vick graded as better than "good" so perhaps you should keep your eyes open a little better.
This site had Vick graded as the 27th most productive quarterback in the league last year (DYAR) and 28th most efficient (DVOA). That's comfortably below "good" by NFL standards.
This year, opponent adjustments are barely in yet, if at all. I would be stunned if Vick finished the year third in DVOA. He won't get to play Washington every week.
In addition, I would take Vick over Alex Smith without blinking an eye. It's not even close. Smith does nothing better than Vick.
You are kidding right? Vick is a turnover machine. I would actually take Smith over Vick any day.
Yeah, I really don't see why anyway would take a guy who fumbles nearly once per game on average over perhaps the safest quarterback of his era. Plus the age difference.
Since I had no rooting interest in either game, I spent a a good chunk of the Chiefs-Cowboys game (which I watched on Shortcut) and last night's game focusing on Fisher when the Chiefs had the ball and Poe when they didn't. Right now, Fisher is really, really bad, especially in pass protection, getting beat one-on-one several times in both games. I was actually kind of impressed that nfl.com ran a piece (by G. Rosenthal) saying something similar today---I would expect them to protect the #1 overall pick. On the other side of the ball, (newsflash!) Poe is good.
Be sure join a star-studded cast of your favorite FO posters for another season of real time football chat!
Instructions moved to a pastebin due to overzealous spam filter: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Qjf3ZzvE
The much-maligned DeAngelo Hall gets an early pick-six off Stafford.
Not a good throw.
NFL.com is telling me that the Cardinals just scored a touchdown in the Patriots-Bucs game.
It's just that kind of year. The Steelers - Bengals game last week was the first NFL game played on the moon, yet the announcers hardly even mentioned the effects the low gravity had. Then the Dolphins hosted a game this week that was actually underwater, but did the NFL adequately advertise the fact? Not even close.
Ron Rivera goes for it on 4th and inches from the 2. The result is a touchdown. We are in uncharted territory.
Also, the last four Giants snaps have included three sacks and a throwaway to prevent another.
2nd week in row a Packer leaves with a head injury. 2nd week in a row it goes unpenalized. I do not understand the new 'emphasis' on blows to the head.
I didn't see anything that would be helmet-to-helmet. It's football. Sometimes players just end up getting hit on the head in the course of the game. (OTOH, how Meriwether didn't get a suspension last week is beyond me.)
Maybe I'm being a homer. Forearm to the head of a receiver in a 'defenseless' posture results in a concussion with no flag?
I'd prefer if that hit didn't happen to a 15 yard flag, but the concussion plus no flag? Worst of both worlds.
It wasn't a forearm, it was a shoulderpad to a helmet, and Finley was dropping his head or it would have been shoulder to shoulder. It sucks because Quarless is worse at catching than Finley and Taylor doesn't have the speed to threaten anything but the line of scrimmage. But it wasn't penalty or fine worthy on the hit that caused it.
It seemed to me that the initial hit was under the arm / shoulder and then momentum caused a collision that Finley came off worse from. He didn't seem to be targeting Finley's head rather trying to play the ball.
On the subject of helmet hits, I have seen so many offensive players leading with their heads today and not a single flag.
I think that hit was really just bad luck. The Bengal player didn't appear to be targeting the head, but Finley stumbled just enough to cause his head to hit the defender in the hip.
Redskins defense? Still bad.
Well, 14-14 Vikings/Browns after a good drive capped by a QB keeper run by Ponder. Vikings run game has been rather bottled up by the Browns D, and the Browns O is looking pretty decent when matched up against the void that is the Vikings D. Not sure how to guess the outcome of this game so far.
Ravens offense having a brutal start for the second game in a row. 2 Facemask penalties on McKinnie on the same drive!
Flacco fumbles on a 3rd and 33 deep in his own territory, but so many pass rushers had gotten to him that there was nobody in short coverage for the Texans. Ravens recover, punt, and dodge a bullet.
Fake punt by Cleveland on a 4th-and-1 from their 40. Picks up 33 yards. Can't get anything really going conventionally on that drive, settle for a FG.
At 7 minutes left in the first half Baltimore has committed its 8th penalty. Texans were dominating in the first quarter, but had to settle for FGs so they're only up 6-0.
If I hadn't been watching the game and had seen the score on the board, I would have thought that the Ravens had been outplaying the Texans.
Really, the Texans have driven on the Ravens defense fairly easily for most of the game and the Texans defense has stymied the Ravens offense for the most part. The Ravens have gotten a few big plays on defense including a pick 6 and they've returned a punt for a touchdown, but it still feels like the Texans have outplayed the Ravens.
I guess that considering how great the Ravens were on special teams last year and how bad the Texans were, it shouldn't be that incredibly surprising to see a touchdown return affect the game so significantly.
Ponder responds to the FG by throwing a LB-tipped pick, Brown ball starting at the Viking 38.
Two absolutely terrible pass interference calls against Houston on consecutive plays.
Redskins negate another nice offensive play with a penalty. Oy vey.
Browns fake a FG, pick up a TD. Vikings down by 10 now.
Vikings managed not to notice the Browns TE standing by the sideline.
Hoyer has looked good even in his throwaway pass; that moving around the pocket was something you don't see from Weeden, and is one of the things you can learn by sitting behind Brady (and not by playing against Big 12 [non]-defenses.)
Ha ha, Browns run the classic "sneak the guy on to the field from the sideline" fake FG for a TD.
Apparently the Browns coaching staff didn't get the memo about tanking the rest of the season. I guess they figure they don't need a high first-round pick, if they've got two others.
They can still lose to the Jags.
Browns return guy misjudges the punt, turns around and tries to catch it, muffs it and Vikings recover.
Frazier decides to not understand the rules, worthlessly challenges. Actually, isn't allowed to challenge, unsportsmanlike.
What is it w/ NFC North coaches not getting the message about required reviews?
Schaub throws a pick-6 to Daryl Smith. That the Texans couldn't get a TD in one of their two early FG drives deep into BAL territory has the Texans down by 4.
Clearly the Texans are just trying to get the Ravens into position for another comeback.
I keep thinking the Jim Harbaugh Visa commercial is a Snickers ad until the end when the dad doesn't hand him a candy bar.
I was just thinking the exact same thing.
"Coach, you turn into a raging asshole when you don't have enough sugar."
Ravens special teams has been abysmal so far this season, but a punt return for a TD will help.
The Texans punt coverage unit has returned to form. Gives up an 82 yard TD to let the Ravens go up by 11.
Harrison Smith with the easiest pick he'll probably have this year. Vikings have the ball with 45 seconds to go in Cleveland territory. Vikings start with a sack.
Ponder gets hit on 1st and goal, its close but its a fumble and not a failed forward pass, end of half after the fumble return takes the rest of the time off the clock. *sigh*
Tampa has out-gained NE 180 yards to 139 but trail 17-3 because of a missed FG, two failed 4th down tries, and an INT.
I hate that soft D by the Ravens, allowing the Texans to move down the field in 45 seconds for a FG at the end of the half. Texans showed some balls throwing the ball there, looks like the Ravens can get pretty good pressure on Schaub.
Dallas may break DVOA this week, they are kerb stomping the Rams.
Refs now protecting Rodgers from not being hit in the head, there you go Packers have a third down conversion.
On replay it wasn't a penalty. Full speed and live and the angle the ref had it's going to be called pretty much every time.
So, I take a look at the Panthers and Giants stats on NFL.com.
I guess Eli Manning has been sacked six times and has thrown six completions.
Cincy should blitz and blitz and blitz some more because Franklin is the last RB the Packers have and he doesn't play because he can't pass block. It's not his rushing that was the reason he fell on the depth chart.
So in a game where each offense has had only 1 real drive, defense should rule even more.
Officials in BAL-HOU can't figure out a spot after a challenge, needs to go back under the hood. Now going on ten minutes since live game action.
Kubiak challenges a catch by Torrey Smith and wins. A 5 minute discussions breaks out between both coaches and the entire crew of officials on what the down and distance should be.
Man, I wish I could believe that the Panthers had abruptly become this good rather than that the Giants are just that terrible.
Hadn't been paying attention to this game. Wow. Just wow.
They wouldn't be the NYG if they didn't have some terrible losses for no reason.
If they're anything like last year's team, they'll go out and blow out the Chiefs next week. Last year, they had the highest variance in the league by a pretty large margin.
As a Broncos fan, I was hoping the Giants would play well so that the Broncos DVOA rating would look better once DVOA rankings kick in. I'm rooting for some historically good ratings this year.
That Seattle/San Fran game probably has the Broncos game beat. And Carolina blowing out New York will also help the Seattle ratings until they play the Giants. None of this stuff matters, but I enjoy rooting for the numbers.
Well, the Vikings D doing their best to give the O a chance. INT, 1st and goal.
Ponder QB sneaks again, Cleveland really wants to leave the middle open for him. Tied ballgame.
I wasn't watching, was Minnesota using ADP to freeze or draw the D away from the middle?
Bucs go for it an 4th and 13 from NE 34. Really? Third failed 4th down try of the day.
So...to sum up the stats: NE has 15 first downs, 245 yards, and one turnover. TB has 15 first downs, 246 yards, and one turnover.
Score is NE 20, TB 3.
A team needs to know how to translate yardage into points.
Schiano is probably more concerned about translating yardage into manliness points.
I misread this as "meaningless points." Not sure which way is better, yours or mine.
Dallas has looked really good today. Is St. Louis that bad, or is this just some strange anomaly?
Unrelated: what the hell is Siragusa wearing?
Even Moose is calling him out on that shirt.
Cleveland nearly falling apart, 3rd and 30 at their 4 yard line. Draw play, nearly picks it up with a 25 yard gain. Fumble on the kick return, but vikings keep it. Sheesh.
Seems a bit silly to say that RG3 wasn't "giving himself up" because he dove to the ground headfirst instead of feet first.
A forward dive, by rule, is not giving oneself up.
The difference is not trivial. A normal dive results in a spot where the ball was when they touched down (end of slide). A baseball slide results in the ball at the spot where it was when the slide began.
That can be as much as 5 yards.
That was my gut reaction above. Of course the call is correct, esp. considering that in theory RG3 could have stood up and kept running. It was just that, at the time, considering that he was surround by Lions, it was clear that his intent was to give himself up. He just did so poorly.
Bizarrely, RG3 is just bad at sliding. It's a skill he really needs to develop.
A lot of young running QBs are bad at it. That's how Rodgers got his 1st NFL concussion.
Refs missed an obvious hold on the only good run by the Ravens today (except for a 1 yard TD run). Before that play the Ravens had something like 17 carries for 23 yards.
After seeing the Ravens jump out to a huge lead in penalties in the first half, the Texans spent the rest of the game trying to out-do Baltimore in some phase of the game. They've now committed 15 penalties for ~120 yards.
To me, it looks more like a flag happy crew than undisciplined play. A lot of those penalties on both sides were undeserved.
That crew is definitely flag-happy. I'm pretty sure it's the same crew that called tbe 49ers- Seahawk game last week.
Rodgers throws and int that is clearly his fault. Been awhile since I've seen one of those.
The turnovers are evening themselves out in the game.
I've been impressed with the Ciincy defense. Packers have had to roll Rodgers out a lot to try and get him time and even then the receivers have been blanketed. My wondering if the Packers have learned how to break tackles seems to be answered. They haven't they've just been lucky before today.
Speaking of D. I'm glad Capers gave up the idea of just having his corners play sides. While Williams isn't really great in the slot. Shields is earning himself a nice pay day.
Also must say the refs have been pretty good today. The worst call was the roughing the passer on Rodgers that clearly wasn't in replay but really looked that way live. Other than that most of the enalties on both sides have been earned.
This has not been a typical Packers game.
4th and and a foot for the Packers. They go for it, but Mike McCarthy decides its much more reasonable to run a back up the middle and have him gain 84 inches, rather than sneak Rodgers for 12. He's stopped waaay short, fumbles, and Cincy recovers.
Rookie running back, by the way.
"and Cincy recovers."
Since the player who recovered then fumbled, and another Bengal picked up that fumble and ran it back for the go-ahead TD, I think that was worth mentioning, too.
Sorry, I was so infuriated by the call that I walked out of the room. By the time I came back the officiating crew was trying to figure out whether the return was legal. (Spoiler: Yes.)
I have not been a fan of McCarthy's 4th quarter play calling. That call, nearly had me walk out of the room, but I stayed and watched it get worse and worse. +2 turnover differential for the game and you still can't win it.
The decision to only carry the 2 running backs might be criticized too, but based on how much Rodgers had to coach Franklin throughout the game, even if they had had another back to come in when Franklin got hurt I'm not sure it would have gone any different than it did with doing what they did without a back available.
I know EDS isn't really a powerful center, but not calling a sneak there....
It's funny, after the Richardson trade, I heard more than one head declaim that the Browns players were sure to be so furious about it that the whole team would mutiny. Browns win 31-27. Maybe some of the players haven't heard about the trade yet?
Maybe they've been distracted by a QB who can actually pass for TDs.
Having Josh Gordon back in the lineup helped way more than Richardson could have.
And Weedon out?
Perhaps, though Hoyer hardly delivered a mistake free performance. The Browns offence was utterly futile in the 2nd half before the game-winning drive, though major kudos to Hoyer for that.
Gordon was a beast today and a lot of his total today was YAC.
Playing the Vikings defense helped.
Down 10-0, Miami has Atlanta right where they want them.
I swear I was kidding. Miami just tied it up at 20 after a quick TD following a punt return fumble.
You're too modest.
Funny how people are claiming that the Refskins offense played better vs. the Lions when they didn't. For the whole 60-minute game, their offense was less effective. It simply seems they played better because their defense didn't nuclear meltdown.
It didn't hurt for DeAngelo Hall to get one of his patented gift INTs.
RGIII also didn't play as well; the score was just closer because of the better Redskins defense. And before anyone says "garbage time" stats, those stats have plenty of significance in explanatory and predictive value (per the research of Chase Stuart). The Redskins simply have to put both their offense and defense together for an entire game.
The score was only closer because Stafford threw a very bad pass right at Hall, not because the Washington D is any good. They gave up more than 9 yards per pass play.
Oh yes, I agree, I wasn't implying that the defense played amazing. They were still porous; it was overshadowed by their improvement from historic suck to below average, as well as the Redskins own issues on offense.
The Refskins. Offensive to referees?
Remember how everybody was speculating if the Seahawks could hold the Jaguars to negative yards? Well, the Jaguars have -7 yards of offense so far.
Darius Heward-Bey and Trent Richardson both look like they're playing angry today.
Doesn't seem like any receiver is open for 49ers today.
If the Colts win, I'd like to see an Any Given Sunday on the game. I can't figure out if the Colts' defense is playing well or the Niners are just falling apart.
It seems fairly obvious that the Niners have nobody on the field who is capable of getting open against an NFL defence.
I still figured they would be able to trample the Colts on the ground, but maybe there is just so little receiving threat that the Colts are able to totally sell out to stop it.
The Colts defense was crappy in 2012, and through Week 2 they're ranked 24th (unadjusted for SOS).
I think they'll get a pretty decent boost after today.
I wouldn't bet on it, DAVE is going to be phased out in two weeks and the Niners' VOA isn't all that good.
Is the read option dead? Was Crabtree that important to this team?
They were running the ball well pre-Kaepernick last year, was that down to the multiple alignments and run schemes?
With Davis out, SF has no deep threat. I think their offense can survive the loss of either Crabtree or Davis. It looks like they'll have trouble without both. I still think they're a SB contender even if they are a wild card team.
They've played well. I'd just like for them to do a bit more this season before I consider them a top defense.
(24th is not bad for Colts.)
1st Niners drive, they were getting 15-20 yards a run. After that drive, practically nothing. What the hell happened?
I think it has to be the AGS game. Unless the Raiders win in Denver, in which case we are in the End Days.
Yes, if the Raider win, we all have bigger worries than who gets AGS. I'm stocking the basement with canned goods and water, plus some anti-zombie gear, just in case.
The unexpected way the Colts won is really the story--very good running, very good secondary play, modest passing game from Luck, decent protection of Luck, and all that with 4 starters on IR and two other starters not playing. What the hell?
51 yd FG attempt in Candlestick, or punt to pin the Niners deep? I think I would have punted. The Colts D is looking up to the task, but it seems like a mistake to give up the field position battle.
AFC 5 NFC 1 in the inter-conference games. That was not expected this week.
Hard to know what is going on with some teams, at least the Jags are consistent.
Be very interested in what DVOA comes up with in a couple of days.
Obviously NE winning is no surprise, and KC and Miami were kinda coin-flip games. Not many would have expected Cleveland to win, but nobody is confusing the Vikings with a good team right now. Indy beating SF is the only real shock result in there.
Good thing this Jets/Bills game is good, or else I'd be watching to see if Jacksonville could cover the spread.
Heh, yeah, I was just thinking that as RZC showed the Jags TD. Going for that thrilling 4th-quarter back-door cover.
The Jets-Bills game is only good if you like close games involving crappy play.
I thinks it's an interesting game, I wouldn't have guessed at this point that Geno Smith would look more poised than EJ Manuel, who looks like he has the yips.
I have the impression that had more to do with the defenses they were playing against than the players themselves.
Bills DB are just awful.
Yeah, when the top three CB are injured and #4, 5, and 6 on the depth chart are matching up on the outside. Or, if you believe that calling Aaron Williams a safety makes him one, then only CB #4 and 5, with a whole lot of 3 safety nickel and 4 safety dime.
I'm having trouble deciding which is the most shocking result this week:
1. The Browns winning at all.
2. The Bengals beating the Packers despite giving up 30 points.
3. The Panthers shutting out the Giants.
4. The Colts trouncing the 49er run defense.
5. The Jags scoring 17 pts against the Seahawks.
I'll go with #5 unless someone convinces me otherwise.
I'll take 3 & 4 about equally. I'm not surprised that Carolina beat the NYG, but certainly never expected 38-0. I was really surprised how well Colts played against SF, although the Niners offensively look a real mess right now.
The Jags' 17 wasn't all that shocking, certainly relative to the rest of your list, given the Seahawks scored 45. Jacksonville's first touchdown came on a two-yard drive after Anger pinned Seattle deep and Wilson threw an interception from his own end zone. I'd assume the second involved a lot of prevent defense.
Seattle D put in a lot of back ups in the 4th. Even with the late scores, Seattle defense looked solid throughout. The offense, on the other hand, still looks kind of shaky. A lot of their scores were set up by big plays (which I don't think they'll get against better defenses) vs. grinding out first downs and marching downfield.
I'll go with the Giants meltdown. Carolina is clearly a good football team in many respects, but that was brutal.
Browns were 0-2 against two teams that seemed good and might now be very good, and did not as a whole look completely overmatched in either game.
Putting aside any debate over whether Hoyer should've started all along, or if RBs are dime-a-dozen, they also got Josh Gordon back (although rumors are refusing to go away that they want to trade him.)
Also, Minnesota came in with a similar DVOA to them, and their biggest strength matched the Browns' biggest strength.
Bengals Packers should be a candidate for Any Given Sunday, sure it's not that big an upset is it? I mean it's a playoff team at home against a playoff team on the road, and despite the rule changes defense is still part of football right? (my bungles still have the best d-line in the league with 1 starter out for the season.) But it was just an amazingly odd and sometimes spectacular game. Going for fourth and one, which all of us FBS fans insist teams should do way more often than they do, gets shown up by turning into a game ending fumble return for a touchdown? A -14 point comeback, that gets reversed? All in one game? It was pretty fun and definitely one of the more interesting games I've ever seen. I did not say pretty, or well played or even hint at those things.
Not really. Many Packers fans, including me, were hoping for a win yesterday but had counted it as a probable loss before the season started. I fully expected them to be 1-2 at this point (and figured 2-1 at best). Both Jason Wilde and Bill Johnson on Green and Gold Today at ESPN Milwaukee considered it a likely loss in their preseason program. That the Bengals have a really good team is no longer a secret. Just that nobody expected the menopausal-like game swings.
So I missed the late afternoon games.
Can somebody explain what the hell happened in San Franscisco? Is something wrong with the 49ers? They've only scored 10 points in their last two games and I had thought a home game against the Colts should be a gimme for them.
What's clearly wrong is a lack of receiving talent. Numerous times Kaep was scrambling around with clearly nobody open downfield. Boldin is not an adequate number 1 receiver at this stage.
Earl Thomas called Boldin an average receiver after last week's game, and that his success vs. GB was more about GB not challenging him at the line of scrimmage. I thought he might just be trash talking, but it's hard to argue with that after this game.
Yeah. It's not that Boldin is a "bad" receiver; he's a good hands guy who can catch the ball in traffic and knows what he's doing out there, and would have been a valuable complimentary safety valve opposite Crabtree and Davis. But he's not a #1; he doesn't have the speed to get open against top corners, let alone when he's the major focus of the defense, and it's pretty obvious that the rest of the 49er receivers are practice-squad fodder.
I'm not an expert on the subject, but various talking heads have led me to believe that the Colts and Niners run very similar systems on defense and I wonder if that's a traceable factor in why the previously hapless Colts could suddenly play defense against the best team they've faced so far?
But I think one factor must have been the surprise factor of the Trent Richardson addition? Combined with the 49ers failure to account for Luck running the ball on at least a few key plays.
Is he really THAT much faster than he looks? Or is there some schematic reason teams fail to account for him week after week? simple silly reverse racism? (I don't want to discuss the existence or lack of existence of reverse, or regular racism outside of this singular topic of white folk often being perceived as slow even in the face contrary empirical evidence.) He's like a faster version of Big Ben. Or perhaps he has that same bizarre ability that Marcus Allen had, Marcus seemed to project a magical force field around him that caused everyone to try and tackle like they were mentally handicapped, blind and drunk even if they had previously been an all pro.
Ahmad Bradshaw had a lot more to do with the Colts' win than Richardson.
It's funny but still I hear talking heads say things like "Surprisingly, Andrew Luck beat them with his feet." His 40 time at the combine was about the same as Cam Newton's and last year he set or tied a record for Colts QB rushing TDs (can't recall which). I don't know why people are surprised. He is a faster, and much more elusive Ben R. A tough to bring down, pocket passer who--oh by the way--is also a very effective running QB.
I am not sure I'd say reverse racism, but I think it's more that he's a pocket passer first and foremost, set a passing yardage record last year, is really smart, and is also white--those things tend to say "poindexter the braniac pocket statue" if you haven't seen him run. He's not a Fran Tarkenton type scrambler--he doesn't do elusive circles in the backfield running for 25 yards laterally that turn into three yard gains. He either moves around in the backfield to extend time to pass, or sees a hole and makes a decision to run north-south. So far he has made good decisions. Today's bootleg was apparently a called play (as opposed to Manning's 1999 33 YD naked boot TD vs Buffalo, which surprised the other 21 players on the field and coaching staffs as well). Even on 4th and inches today, the Indy coaches did not call Luck's number and decided to try a 51 yard FG that failed. I guess they see his value as a runner as someone who can make a good decision and succeed when other options fail. But not as a runner first, even on what one might assume is a gimme for a good running QB--4th and inches.
The Niners season could fall apart quite quickly, having to travel to a divisional rival on Thursday night with barely a healthy receiver and the Aldon Smith situation hanging over them.
Will someone please tell Cris Collinsworth that it's Alshon "Jeffery," not "Jeffries"?
We've been trying for years to get Phil Simms to say "Asante Samuel", not "Samuels".
I'd swear that there was someone who said "Michael Irving" and said that Texas Stadium was in "Irvin, TX"
Tyrann Mathieu's quite regularly called Tyron Matthews.
You would think Collinsworth would pay particular attention to how to pronounce the names of players, as announcers often mistakenly called him "Collingsworth" when he played.
So now he takes his petty revenge out on all the other NFL players. Peyton Mannings, Matt Schwab, Adrian Patterson, Philip River. They never got my name right, so screw 'em.
Either that or he's just an idiot. My money is on #2.
Do people really think Chris Collinsworth is an idiot? I think he's the only broadcast announcer that doesn't make his audience stupider from listening to him. He consistently provides insight and points out subtle details about what's happening on the field. Who wouldn't forgive him a mistaken name here and there in exchange for an otherwise intelligent broadcast? No, Collinsworth is awesome, and I suspect you're either drunk or confused.
I agree - Collinsworth is the best by far. Also with the names these guys have and the spelling of them I can forgive mistakes like that.
Wow. This game is getting out of control for the Steelers quite quickly.
That said, PITT is having a sort-of-OK goal line stand, though Cutler's bad pass was more the culprit than the Steelers' D on that 2nd down pass...
Sort-of-OK in the sense that the first down play was a bad call that was unchallenged, the second down play was a bad pass, and the third down play was a coin flip (that is, could have been called TD or not and it would have been inconclusive on replay either way) that went in PIT's favor...
Yeah! Bush should have been given the TD on the first try. This sequence is the counterargument to everyone who claims that the officials are biased toward TD calls because they get automatic review.
A bad non-TD call never gets reviewed except on a challenge.
No, it's an anecdote, not an argument for or against anything. Do you even read FO?
What was really dumb was challenging with your last timeout when you wre going to go for it on fourth anyway.
And these types of things are exactly why it's dumb that there has to be a ruling on the field, and then the automatic replay review can only overturn the initial ruling if there's clear and incontrovertible evidence. If it had been ruled a touchdown I'm sure the automatic review would've upheld that call, too.
So what's the alternative? If there's no ruling on the field, and the replay is inconclusive, then what? Coin flip? What's better than what's being done now?
How about a fully fledged ref up in the booth with authority to make and override calls (or non-calls) from the field? And since this new ref is stationed up in the booth, he can easily refer to apre-written set of rules for detedetermining what to do when the on field refs can't make a call. Pretty sure this system would be better.
A pre-written set of rules? How do you know that the refs aren't doing just that when they make judgment calls on the field? I don't see how pushing the decision to someone else helps in any way except slowing down the game even further, because the refs on the field them would have the opportunity to be lazy and pass the buck to the new ref on calls that they would've passed judgment on previously. You've already seen obvious touchdowns take some time to be reviewed, and this will just make it worse.
I was just throwing that out there, I'm sure there are ways to improve it. As of now I guess it's trading one set of problems for another.
Regression? What regression?
I hope that personal foul for roughing the punter doesn't come back to bite the Bears. I don't think it was very smart to put on the punt block there. They were in complete control of the game and were getting the ball back after the punt. The downside (what happened) was so much greater than the potential upside. Now the Steelers are back in the game after their TD.
Agreed. The Bears don't have a good punt returner or anything.
Arggh! Just realized that Pats-Falcons is head-to-head with the Breaking Bad finale!
How does that TD catch not get reviewed? Seems like if they don't review that and don't allow coaches to challenge plays like that the system is broken.
I don't understand that, either. The replay they just showed seemed to prove that his foot was down before his knee (and of course if it's too close to be sure, the TD would stand anyway), but I have seen way more obvious TD catches take a couple of minutes to review, and that one is instantaneous? I don't like it.
It was reviewed. It just didn't take long to review. Both feet were down inbounds and he had control.
The Bears might want to start covering Antonio Brown. Just a thought.
Is Cutler stuck in some internal Marshall ratio (like the Randy ratio of old)? That pass was really stupid on a 3rd and 1. It wasn't like he was actually open at all.
Bears are in big trouble if Melton's injury is as serious as it looks.
ACL, done for the year, per Adam Schefter.
Could somebody tell the Bears that there are nine minutes left in the game, not nine seconds? It's nowhere near time to run the ball up the middle for no gain on 1st and 2nd down and try to run the clock down.
I think Cutler got your memo.
Haha...yeah, of course as I'm posting that he hits Marshall for a big 3rd down conversion. Still, though, I know you can't abandon the run but I thought they were putting themselves in bad shape with the 1st down play calls that drive. Lucky it worked out in the end.
First time I ever saw a WR get flagged for a cheap shot on a DB!
I don't always advocate for unpaid interns to be fired. But when I do, it's usually because they neglect to post Audibles at the Line before 10:00am on Monday.
outside of Seattle and Denver, the NFL appears to be a big ball of chaos this season
Reid 'em and weep, Philly fans.
Oakland's defense DVOA vs. tight ends: +61.4%
Julius Thomas receiving DVOA: +30.7%
I'd claim prescience for pointing that out, but Oakland hasn't stopped -anything- tonight.
Broncos don't really need gifts like that OPI on the Raiders.
Or the drop on the subsequent 3rd and long.
If the Raiders are going to have any chance whatsoever, they can't have the refs make garbage calls against them.
So are only the Broncos allowed to lead with the helmet on defenseless receivers? That's two uncalled penalties so far.
I'll have to rewatch later, but all of the hits so far have looked clean to me.
Frankly they looked more dangerous to the Denver defenders than the Oakland receivers, each time the DB's head went into the body. But I'm a bit confused, how many times are offensive players going to drop their head outside the tackle into a defender and the refs not call it? I'm not referring to this game, but the rules don't seem to be consistently enforced. At least as opposed to last year, when everything at all close was flagged.
Pryor is fun to watch. But the Raiders need a lot of help. Start with the O-Line.
Broncos could play their 2nd string in the 4th quarter and win easily.
Let me repeat that (my FF opponent has Manning, Moreno, and Prater, while I have Julius Thomas)
The Broncos could play their 2nd string in the 4th quarter and win easily.
Pryor is single handedly making the Raiders look simply bad instead of Jaguaresque. I don't know if his skill set would fit on a better team, but the play on the high snap was impressively heads up to corral the ball, make a read and unload the ball to avoid the safety.
Of course he should have simply thrown it away instead of risking the pick, but a damn good play.
It was worth watching the 3rd quarter if only for the TD pass by McFadden.
Hey - one more turnover and TD and this game might even become interesting!
Honestly, Pryor has looked not-half-bad out there. He's surrounded by very little indeed, but he himself has looked more like a genuine NFL quarterback than not.
That OL, though... *gah*
Why is a defensive player attempting a lateral, down by 23 points with less than 2:30 remaining in the game?
This seemed like a relatively poor showing by the Broncos defense.
I like Ray Lewis's inclusion on the ESPN post-game panel. When he talks about leading a defense, everybody should listen. OTOH, it's hilarious to see him sitting next to his old teammate, Trent Dilfer.
I think they were being conservative about playing some of their dinged up defensive backs and ended up thin in the secondary in garbage time.
Yeah, Omar Bolden I'm pretty sure had to come in for a few plays. He's pretty much at the bottom of the depth for Denver's secondary. That said, it may be the deepest secondary in the league. I'm also pretty sure the defense was trying to play a little bit conservative, but that doesn't change the fact that I saw Denver defenders colliding into each other at least 3 times.
Peyton Manning played about as well as a quarterback can play today. I think it was better than his 7 TD performance. I mean, come on, 32/37? That's just unreal. I'm not sure if a single one of his passes was off-target today. Sorry, scratch that. I remember seeing one of them, and it was caught anyway.
Yes, I think Peyton Manning could have had 7 TDs tonight if that had been his goal. The Raiders were totally outclassed. In the fourth quarter the Broncos gave many of their starters on offense rest - Moreno disappeared in favor of Ball and Hillman who started rushing every down. After scoring 27 points in the first half the Broncos were content to only score 10 in the second half. It's not like the Raiders ever had an answer for their passing attack. The Broncos just stopped using it as much.
On another note, the Broncos have allowed 130 yards on 57 rushes so far this year. That's 2.3 yards per rush, for anybody keeping track.
That may be more about the quality of opponent and the second half blow outs though. The Giants are last in rushing yards, Baltimore is 25th and they're averaging 2.6 and 2.7 yds/ attempt respectively.
Oakland looked better than that, but they did put up 226 out of their 446 Rushing yards against Jacksonville and most of the rest against Indianapolis who have given up 4.6 (S.F.), 3.7 (Miami) and 5.2(Oakland) ypc in their first three games. It's early in the season for team adjustments, but I suspect that when we look back we'll see that Denver's run D and Oaklands run O have both benefited from weaker than average opposition and favorable conditions.
That said I've been pretty impressed by Denver's D considering the personnel issues, they're not world beaters but they look like a better than average defence reaping the benefits of a dominant O.
© Football Outsiders, Inc. // Site powered by Stein-Wein // Partner of USA TODAY Sports Digital Properties