Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

09 Oct 2011

Week 5 Game Discussion Thread

Here's your thread for in-game discussion of all the Week 5 games.

Posted by: Aaron Schatz on 09 Oct 2011

63 replies , Last at 11 Oct 2011, 9:09am by Aaron Brooks Good Twin

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 1:09pm

And we get our first blown call of the game. Avant is a yard short of the first down and they give it to him.

2
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 1:15pm

And two plays later (after converting on fourth down following a successful challenge by Buffalo), the Eagles commit their first ridiculous turnover of the game, an interception off a tipped screen pass.

3
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 1:29pm

Titans-Steelers get an early one too. 3 and 7 Titans false start. Nobody notices and they run the play. At the end the runner is tight-roping the sideline and gets hit after stepping out. But the hit came before the whistle blew, and since the running is walking the tight-rope there's no way for the tackler to know that he had stepped out. He gets called for the unnecessary roughness anyway, which overrides the false start: 1st and 10 instead of 3rd and 12 20 yards apart on the field.

To be clear by "nobody notices" I mean they threw a flag on it, but the teams didn't see it or hear the whistle.

4
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by joe football (not verified) :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 1:31pm

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5
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Dan :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 1:49pm

The Vikings sure are giving themselves quite a challenge this week. 28-0 in the first quarter - this time I'm afraid they won't be able to overcome that lead.

7
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by DRohan :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 1:59pm

*undercome?

12
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 3:02pm

Vikings come out determined in 2nd half, advance into Cardinal territory... where they promptly false start then fumble. Cardinals zip down for a quick score, 28-10 now.

The Cowboys raised the collapse bar, good to see this team is up to the challenge.

14
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 3:07pm

Come on, there's no way a 28 point lead holds up against the Arizona onslaught.

6
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 1:52pm

NFL Fake Punt alert! It works brilliantly.

8
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 2:01pm

Heh, and now I'm watching punt plays formation and behavior closely in case there's another. I wonder if fake punt probability is correlated to recency of a fake punt.

9
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 2:07pm

Vick looks terrible.

10
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 2:40pm

Can someone explain what happened just before halftime in NO-Car? I caught the end of the sequence on RZC. Apparently someone for Carolina called timeout with 2 seconds left and the Saints scrambling to get their field goal unit on the field. Who called timeout for Carolina? There is no way the Saints would have gotten lined up in time. After the timeout, the Saints made the field goal.

43
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by njwelch75 :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 9:42pm

Rivera was afraid they had too many men on the field.

11
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by bcornell :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 2:53pm

Darius Heyward-Bey has suddenly added catching the ball to his arsenal of weapons: 5 for 85 yds int the first half and a TD. He had a good game vs. NE last week, too. Maybe Al Davis knew what he was doing...

13
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 3:05pm

One thing vikings have consistently done in 2nd half collapses is set them selves up with the return game. After Cardinals scored to make it 28-10, they kick off to back of the end zone where Lorenzo Booker decides to bring it out, makes it to maybe the ten.

Despite the 28-3 halftime lead McNabb has not done much. He ran for a TD but completed only 2 of 10 while they built that lead. He got two more running out the half and completed one that Jenkins fumbled away. That's still a lousy completion percentage... this has mostly been running.

15
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 3:12pm

wow, Dwayne Bowe!

16
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 3:25pm

And the Eagles implode again, as Jason Avant has the ball stripped from him as he was being tackled after a big gain on a play that started at their own 2 yard line. Tough week for Philadelphia fans. At least the Flyers are off to a good start.

17
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by JeffM (not verified) :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 3:44pm

Victor Cruz just had a ridiculous catch. Eli throws a ball into double coverage, it hits the safety's hands, bounces into the dair in front of Cruz, and he makes a one-handed catch.

Giants have been unimpressive once again against a bad opponent, and they still have a good chance to win.

19
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 4:00pm

And then a few minutes after his circus TD catch and run, Cruz fumbles and Seattle recovers, leading to a Seahawks field goal that ties the game at 22. In between his TD and his fumble, Fox ran a pre-taped segment with Cruz explaining why his controversial play last week wasn't a fumble.

21
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by JeffM (not verified) :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 4:23pm

Brandon Browner with the wild pick-six off of Cruz' hands. Has one WR ever been on so many fluky plays in one month?

But more importantly for the Giants, they can't defend the pass. Justin Tuck better make a huge difference because it's not like they're good enough in other areas to overcome a bad pass defense.

22
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 4:32pm

"off of Cruz's hands" is true, but gives too much credit to Eli. That pass was terrible, and it took a hell of an athletic play for Cruz to even get his hands on it.

The only difference Cruz made in that play was he changed which defender was running it back the other way.

44
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by ScottyB (not verified) :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 9:50pm

Actually replays showed that Cruz slipped while making his cut and was a 1/2 step behind where Eli thought he would be. That's a timing route and Eli hit the right spot- Cruz didn't make it in time.

But it is incredible the highs and lows Cruz puts Giants fans through!

52
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 10:19am

I still think its a terrible throw/decision. There's 3 defenders right there.

24
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 4:32pm

I was thinking something similar about Cruz, who is now must-see TV. On the two plays before the wild pick-six off his hands, he made two nice catches and runs to set the Giants up inside the 10 yard line. It looked like they were going to score a go-ahead TD until the 94-yard pick-six.

18
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by RedZone :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 3:54pm

Hugh Jackson just called his own fake punt,
which goes for 30+ yards.

20
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 4:14pm

I do not believe what I just saw in the Eagles game. Andy Reid, that seat must be getting pretty warm. How can your DL jump offside on 4th and 1 when it is obvious to everyone in the stadium that the Bills will not snap the ball and are just trying to draw you offside?

23
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 4:32pm

'Cause, clearly, thats Rieds fault.

27
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 4:43pm

Oh, of course that's not Reid's fault. But the Eagles look like a team in disarray that continually makes bonehead plays. Fairly or not, the head coach gets blamed when a team continually implodes, especially when the team is as hyped as the Eagles were this year and when the team's fanbase is rabid, frustrated and notorious for being critical.

30
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 6:23pm

Oh ok - we're on the same page then.

25
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by RedZone :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 4:38pm

Raiders get it done on a game-ending pick of Matt Schaub, after almost giving the
game away at the end.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 4:41pm

Rough penalty on the jets. 3rd and 27 and one of your CBs steps in front of Hernandez downfield.

38 yard PI.

28
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by bcornell :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 6:19pm

The Jets apparently have morphed back into their 2010 playoff team. This is looking like the NE loss at home.

I hate this Patriots no-huddle approach. It worked against Miami, because they're out of shape and confused. Versus the Jets, it just lowers your time of possession.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 6:21pm

Orton pulled, Tebow taking all snaps. Sigh. In fairness Orton had been pretty bad.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Thok :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 6:34pm

To any west coast types, are the Niners playing anywhere close to as well as the score suggests?

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Plex (not verified) :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 6:39pm

If anything, the game is not as close as the score

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Biebs :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 6:47pm

I don't know if it's Sanchez or Schottenheimer. But it's pretty clear that the Jets offense is totally broken. Schottenheimer has had 6 years to run the Jets offense and it's never been better than marginally above average. Admittedly, he's had injured Pennington, Bad Favre, and three years of Sanchez. But it's inexcusable that the Jets have yet the throw the ball downfield at all. Sanchez hasn't been rushed that much.

The Jets have 7 3 and outs this week and 150 total yards. The Pats defense is simply not very good, the Jets offense talent is below average, but their play calling and execution stinks and it has been that way for many years.

Even if it's the execution, Schotty's is partially to blame, after 3 years, he needs to take some accountability for the offenses constant mistakes.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by JeffM (not verified) :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 8:17pm

So, the offensive talent is below average at the skill positions and at quarterback. That means the offensive coordinator is to blame for their lack of production? Come again?

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 9:08pm

Below average? How many teams have better than Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burress, and Derek Mason at WR? How many have better than Greene, with Tomlinson to back him up?

Certainly less than half the NFL.

I'm not a big Sanchez fan, but he's got plenty of WR talent.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 2:10am

ATL: White, Jones, Douglass
CAR: Smith, Naanee, LaFell
DET: Johnson, Burleson, Jones
GB: Jennings, Nelson, Driver
HOU: Johnson, Walter, Jones
IND: Wayne, Garcon, Collie
NE: Welker, Branch, Johnson
PIT: Wallace, Ward, Sanders

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by fostern :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 2:43am

You can argue why X receiving corps is better than Y all day. Regardless, the Jets are way too "not terrible" at the vast majority of offensive positions to justifiably put in such inconsistent performances year in and year out. While that might be on Sanchez (I personally thought he played pretty well against NE and got some bad play from his targets), despite considerable talent the Jets have never put together an intimidating offense for the entirety of Schottenheimer's tenure.

Granted, it's very easy to criticize play calling in a purely result based manner but certain calls can be puzzling. It is unlikely that the multiple times Jet receivers ran four-yard-outs on 3rd and 6/7 that they were continually screwing up. Basically, going 3-and-out seven times or so against a seriously suspect defense is inexcusable.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 3:07am

It's not fallacious to argue against play calling based on results when you do it in aggregate. Good players and bad performance points to coaching. You don't have to know why.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 8:26am

DET: Johnson, Burleson, Young

(Although feel free to substitute Pettigrew or Best in #3)

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by RichC (not verified) :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 10:17am

Thats nowhere near the 16 teams you need to make your point.

And I'd disagree about Indy, Detroit, Atlanta, Carolina. Detroit, Car, and Atlanta have better #1s than Holmes, but not as good #2 or 3 IMO.

Wayne is great, but the rest of Indy's WRs are terrible.

55
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 1:52pm

I didn't have a point to make. I was just listing the triplets that seem better to me than the Jets'. If anything the fact I only listed 8 means I agreed with you. The Jets' receiving group is very good because Holmes is excellent; Burress is a bad #2, and Mason is a pretty good #3 but not great.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Biebs :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 9:56am

The thing is, if this was Schottenheimer's first year (or even 2nd year) with the offense I'd agree. But we are talking 6 years with the offense, an offense that has never been good in his entire time with the Jets. Schottenheimer has had 2 QBs prior to Sanchez, both of whom had among the best season of their careers immediately after leaving the Jets, both of whom had as many TDs as INTs in their final season with the Jets (In Pennington's case, his only healthy season under Schottenheimer).

Again, I don't know if Sanchez is the answer, he has looked pretty bad, and the OL has had it's issues. But it's been 6 seasons, and the Jets have had 1 season in the top 10 in points (Season with 6 ST/Def TDs) and 1 season in the top half in yards. The Jets replaced the head coach after 3 seasons, and Schottenheimer survived. At some point there has to be recognition that the offense just isn't working.

THere's simply no excuse to go 3 and out 7x in 11 drives against the Pats defense (who hadn't allowed less than 445 yards and 25 1st downs before the game). There's no excuse for not throwing the ball downfield at all. (Again, this could be a Sanchez thing, but at the same time, Schottenheimer is the OC, he could talk to the QB about looking downfield or making adjustments).

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Exy (not verified) :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 10:28am

In regards to that final parenthetical point, the announcers said that specifically for that game they were going to call less audibles and "just focus on the plays called" I believe was how they worded it. So Sanchez might not have had the authority to make such changes on the fly.

34
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 6:58pm

Tebow in. 2nd and goal at about the 9, and Denver goes empty backfield. QB draw, TD. How can the Chargers not see that comming? Horrible defending, but some nice running by Tebow on a couple of plays. Still completionless, so I guess he is who we think he is.

Oh and on that TD drive there were trouble with the snap-exchange THREE times. Hmm..

35
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 7:01pm

Rich Gannon claims that is an incomplete pass by Rivers. He is obviously wrong. It clearly is a fumble.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 7:01pm

But wasn't the play whistled dead? In that case, what's the call if Denver wins the challenge?

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 7:05pm

It was a clear recovery by Denver, so it's Denver's ball.

38
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Dice :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 7:12pm

Somebody pay Fred Jackson.

39
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 7:18pm

It looks like SD is going to pull this one out in the end. However there are some positives: The running game on offense seems pretty good. And the passrush on defense is comming along nicely. Especially in this second half where Rivers was hurried more often than not.

Baby steps.

40
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 7:26pm

An absolutely rediculous sideline catch (under review) by Brandon Lloyd. Insane. Better than Bowes earlier I think.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Nathan :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 10:26am

That catch was ludicrous.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by RedZone :: Sun, 10/09/2011 - 10:42pm

Is anyone else watching GB v. ATL, and if so, do you understand
what GB was just flagged for? The Ref said that players came out
on the field, but it just looked like the normal stuff that would
happen when you switch from the return team to the office. The
announcers were confused too.

56
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 9:14pm

This is the most penalty-filled start of MNF I can recall.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by andrew :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 9:17pm

PBP thus far through first 2 drives includes:

(12:13) PENALTY on CHI-K.Davis, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at CHI 20 - No Play.
(11:01) PENALTY on CHI-C.Williams, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at CHI 24 - No (10:35) PENALTY on CHI-J.Webb, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at CHI 19 - No Play.
(8:55) (Shotgun) PENALTY on DET-R.Sims, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at DET 45 - (5:40) J.Cutler sacked at CHI 17 for -4 yards (C.Avril). PENALTY on DET-C.Avril, Face Mask (15 Yards), 15 yards, enforced at CHI 17.
(4:44) PENALTY on CHI-K.Davis, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at CHI 34 - No Play.
(4:17) J.Cutler pass incomplete short right to D.Sanzenbacher (C.Houston). PENALTY on DET-C.Houston, Defensive Pass Interference, 10 yards, enforced at CHI 29 - No Play. Detroit challenged the tipped pass ruling, and the play was REVERSED.
1-10-CHI34
(4:12) PENALTY on DET-N.Suh, Neutral Zone Infraction, 5 yards, enforced at CHI 34 - No Play.
1-5-CHI39
(4:12) J.Cutler pass incomplete short right to M.Forte. PENALTY on DET-W.Young, Roughing the Passer, 15 yards, enforced at CHI 39 - No Play.

57
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Anon poster (not verified) :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 9:16pm

Did the ref bet the over on the number of penalties in the CHI-DET game? Unbelievable.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Insancipitory :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 9:31pm

"Bears fans are used to seeing this"

If that's true, as a Seahawks fan, let me say how truly sorry I am for your plight.

60
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Mon, 10/10/2011 - 9:41pm

Oh, it's all too true.

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Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Tue, 10/11/2011 - 12:28am

Two thoughts:

1. Despite losing, Cutler played a hell of a game. Always within himself, never showing obvious frustration or showing a teammate up, all while his offensive linemen false started 9 times and still totally failed to slow down the rushing DEs.

2. Detroit beat a good team fairly handily, and never really looked great doing it. Unlike in past years where the Lions looked fantastic in their few wins, this team looks somewhat mundane in their wins. It's a flawed team, but far more talented than the last decade's worth of Lions teams. There's an obvious identity on both sides of the ball, and the suggestion that there's still considerable room for improvement. I don't think this team beats the Packers or Patriots of the world (at least not consistently), but I think the playoffs have become a minimum goal. I was thinking this was an 8-8 talent team with a +/- of 2 games (10-6 to 6-10), but now think this might be a 10-6 team with a +/- of 2 games.

At least so long as Matthew Stafford's Shoulder is healthy.

62
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Alexander :: Tue, 10/11/2011 - 1:57am

I think fairly handily is an overstatement. The Lions had great field position all day (because of the ridiculous amount of Bears penalties) and wound off 3 big plays on the day. The bears defense certainly looked foolish at times, but I think a better coach (like one who doesn't challenge a spot that his running back obviously didn't get) would have pulled out a bears victory. Matt Forte off tackle (right) was worth 4+ yards almost every non-short yardage situation. Lovie took 3 points off the board with the 1st quarter debacle of running on 4th and 1 with forte (possibly the worst playcall imaginable, what is the point of having barber on the roster if Forte is taking those carries), he didn't get the screen game going (even though the lions were constantly chasing down cutler), and the defense was obviously not prepared for Megatron until the halftime adjustments.

63
Re: Week 5 Game Discussion Thread
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Tue, 10/11/2011 - 9:09am

Expecting a coaching staff made up of Lions and Vikings retreads (Tice, Martz, Marinelli (ha!)) to make sound coaching decisions is truly a fantasy of hyperbolic proportions.

Cutler, even when completing passes, was running for his life. Forte did well running off tackle in the first half, but that play disappeared in the second half. The Bears actually did try to screen quite a bit, but the Lions suddenly have linebackers who acknowledge the utility of using your arms when tackling, and were largely shutting those plays down. Once they made a second-half adjustment on their line angles, those gap runs and quick screens stopped working, and Chicago's offense became only Cutler pulling rabbits from hats. Everything Chicago did on offense was hard.

Basically, the Lions overwhelmed Chicago's O-line, and their own line was capable of giving Stafford quite a bit of time. Once Detroit figured out how to move Chicago's LBs with mis-direction, it was over. What was shocking was that at the end of the game, Detroit's D-line looked fresh and Chicago's O-line looked gassed. Chicago had the ball for 40 minutes!

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