Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

04 Nov 2012

Week 9 Open Discussion Thread

Discuss all of Week 9's fascinating football action in this here thread.

Posted by: Rivers McCown on 04 Nov 2012

195 replies , Last at 06 Nov 2012, 12:55am by Intropy

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Nevic (not verified) :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 4:43pm

The FO article earlier today is titled "Officiating: Bad Options". Tonight we have Thursday Night Football: Bad options. Neither of these teams have an offense that is remotely interesting to watch.

2
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by @MichaelEdits :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 6:08pm

That's okay, because they're being shown on a make-believe network that most people can't watch.

3
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by speedegg :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 7:56pm

oboy. Robert Meachem and Eddie Royal are inactive and Chargers signed Seyi Ajirotutu. Plus, Larry English and ILB Jonas Mouton are healthy inactives.

4
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:24pm

This game is insane. KC is on its 2nd possession and there's 3 minutes left in the 2nd quarter.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:25pm

Chiefs bring in Peyton Hillis for 3rd and 1. Gets 0.

But it's really not his fault. LB is in backfield before Hillis has a chance.

6
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Lvess :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:25pm

Apparently the Chiefs are running the world's most specific timeshare at RB because Jamaal Charles only carries the ball on 1st down anymore. This wouldn't be a problem if the Chiefs could actually get 1st downs.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Levente from Hungary :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:57pm

Why, they have 8 in 2 drives.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:36pm

If the Chiefs only get 2 possessions in half, that undoubtedly ties a record for fewest possessions in a half, no?

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:42pm

Damnit! Chiefs INT results in a 3rd possession, albeit a kneeldown.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:43pm

Technically they got a 3rd after the pick.

But we've yet to see a punt in this game. And it's only 10-3!

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Levente from Hungary :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:47pm

No punt yet - offensive explosion!

8
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:41pm

One play after the announcers praise Rivers for throwing the ball out of the end zone, he throws a pick on 3rd and goal from the 1 yard line.

Heh heh heh.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Levente from Hungary :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:43pm

If only it had been a pick-6 :-)

12
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Levente from Hungary :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:46pm

Commentators were praising (actually just saying once) that KC moves the ball well. I'm not a football expert, but 4 yards / play, really? It's more that they are moving with the ball like a whale on the shore.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by D2K :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:48pm

Deion Sanders is a catastrophe!!!

I felt that had to be said.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 9:59pm

The Chiefs again fail to block on 3rd and short.

Hey, a punt!

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:02pm

It's just so much fun to root against the Chargers. They give you so many opportunities to rejoice.

Fumble when wrist, not elbow, hits the ground. Will it stand?

18
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Lvess :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:03pm

1st down - Off tackle run with Charles
2nd down - shotgun with Hillis in protection
3rd down - McCluster

Now I've never played football but even I can recognize a pattern when I see it on TV. If I can see this exact play call pattern I'm positive that paid NFL defensive coordinators can too. Perhaps Daboll only uses 3-5 plays because he can't count any higher?

C'mon man, switch things up a bit....

19
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:05pm

I'm confused...Jamal Charles had a carry on 2nd down. Was the OC confused about the down?

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Lvess :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:06pm

The turnover confused him...

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:06pm

Bowe has to catch that.

22
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:06pm

Man KC sucks.

23
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:06pm

Sweet. Chief ineptitude trumps Charger incompetence.

24
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by D2K :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:12pm

Vegas may want to re-think who the worst team in the league truly is. Jacksonville was considered a 24 point favorite in a hypothetical game vs. Bama.

Jacksonville would be beat this KC team. Bowe and Cassell have played together since 2009, its amazing that their so inefficient.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:25pm

Wow! I'm shocked they didn't flag that. Textbook headhunting.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by hughesm12 :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:28pm

the announcer said the tipped ball "throws off all the penalties". including a hit on a defenseless receiver?? i don't know the rule, but it doesn't seem like that penalty should be "thrown off" if it's intended to protect the player from a potentially dangerous hit like that

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by tuluse :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:31pm

You can hit receivers after the ball has been tipped. There is no more DPI or illegal contact. Still can't go helmet to helmet.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:34pm

If it was helmet-to-helmet, it comes down to whether the receiver was "defenseless" or not. I thought he wasn't.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:38pm

I'm just accustomed to the refs throwing the Personal Foul on calls a lot more ticky tack than that, it seems like if its questionable at all the refs are usually going to flag it these days.

30
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:48pm

That TD is all Cassel's fault. He's got to go down for the safety.

Well, by "all" I mean the TD instead of safety. The safety was the fault of the right tackle.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 10:58pm

The final score is not going to do justice to this game. Except to the failures of the KC offense.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Thu, 11/01/2012 - 11:19pm

Are all of these turnovers the fault of the coaching? Something to think about. You could say the strip-sack was the fault of the O-line, and the O-line's bad play was due to bad coaching. But what about the tipped pass? And what about the muff/fumble on that punt? (Not clear to me whether it's a fumble or a muff..he seemed to briefly have control.)

I don't know, but Romeo's not going to have this job for very long.

33
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by joe football (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 1:20pm

Be sure join a star-studded cast of your favorite FO posters for another season of football chat!
Instructions moved to pastebin due to overzealous spam filter: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Qjf3ZzvE

34
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by OmicronPersei8 :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 2:32pm

Bears unsustainable defensive/ special teams scoring continues.They now have as many tds on DST as they have given up all year.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 2:52pm

Almost another special teams TD as Hester runs a punt back inside the ten yard line. Forte gets a TD run on the next play. On the second play of the ensuing drive, they do get another defensive TD, as Urlacher joins the pick 6 party.

On the first play of the next drive, Tillman forces another fumble that the Bears recover, his second forced fumble today that the Bears recovered. The Bears have 38 yards of offense, yet have scored 3 TDs already.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 2:45pm

On an outside run right on the sideline, DeAngelo Williams nearly scored a TD, but the refs blew the whistle to indicate that Williams stepped out of bounds. The Redskins defenders obviously stopped pursuing Williams BECAUSE the whistle was blown. Replay showed that it was a bad call, Williams did not step out. But the refs didn't have a replay review, they just changed the call on the field to a touchdown.

How can this be allowed? THEY BLEW THE WHISTLE! When they blow the whistle, the play is over, right? If the Redskins defense kept playing after the whistle, they would surely be penalized and fined. The refs just gave Williams a free, defender-less path to the end zone.

EDIT: Mike Pereria just came on to confirm that the refs made a major, major mistake right there that gave the Panthers a free touchdown. I can't remember ever seeing a call blown this badly.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Guest789 :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 2:47pm

Week 3, Packers-Seahawks.

-----

“Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be.”

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 3:09pm

The Packers/Seahawks call was a bad judgement call. This was a blatant disregard for the rules as they are written.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 3:16pm

The refs don't seem interested in giving the 'Skins any make-up calls, they keep calling everything close--and several plays where there was no penalty at all--against them.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by justanothersteve :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 3:30pm

This game's head referee should be fired immediately after this game. There is absolutely no excuse for getting that call wrong.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:31pm

Agreed. If you blow the whistle, the play is dead. You don't get to go back and change your mind, because the defense has already stopped playing, as they're supposed to.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Jimmy :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 5:41pm

What if the guy who blew the whistle is too gutless to admit he did it. Then how is the head ref supposed to know?

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:12pm

Presumably the head ref heard the whistle, just like the players and the fans at home did. It was a solid, confident blow, not some half-accidental one that might have been presumed accidental or ignored. If the ref is too gutless to admit it, that's a whole different problem on top of everything else.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by BywaterBrat :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 2:50pm

First time I'm really watching these guys but Tannehill and Luck look really good, composed, pocket presence, getting the ball out, anticipating, throwing on the move the whole package.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by JohnD (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 11:45pm

Regrettably, Luck's had a great deal of practice throwing on the move. He really looked good today doing it, admittedly.

That strike to Wayne while being forced to his knees was something else.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Guest789 :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 2:58pm

Even though Hayward got beat pretty badly on the Roberts 40-yarder, he was able to recover and still get a hand on the ball. Good sign for a guy who was considered somewhat slow for the position.

-----

“Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be.”

40
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by SFC B (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 3:02pm

False start and holding penalties killing Houston. They drove to the Bills 19 then Sack and Williams sack and a false start result in a blocked FG.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 3:08pm

Washington converts two 4th downs on a drive, then get stuffed on 4th and goal from the 2 yard line. It didn't work, but I have to agree with the call to go for it.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by SFC B (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 3:09pm

Jonathan Joseph goes to the sidelines and getting his hand/wrist treated. That doesn't bode well.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Nevic (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 3:21pm

The GB running back just fumbled. Rodgers was 15 yards behind the play when the RB fumbled but the ball squirted sideways and somehow Rodgers came diving in to recover the fumble!

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 3:46pm

So many crappy games today, so many highlights with appalling tackling. Ugly day in the NFL.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:29pm

Great play by the Panthers, using Steve Smith as a decoy to clear out space for Armanti Edwards, who took his second career reception 82 yards. He didn't score, but they just punched it in from the 1.

The Redskins are having trouble against the Panthers, but it would be a close game except for the really, really bad and very one-sided refereeing. This is the second game this year the Redskins have really been screwed by some unfair, one-sided refereeing (the first one was the Rams game in week 2).

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:34pm

Maybe the officials want Romney to win the election: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2012/11/03/will-...

This is meant just to point out this interesting history and not to engage in commentary that would violate Rule #1.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:44pm

Ha, I'm familiar with that streak. Is this really the last Redskins home game before the election?

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:53pm

Well, yeah, since the election is this Tuesday.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CJS at NYC :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:48pm

Funny thing was that the Red Zone host felt compelled to tell us what an incumbent is.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CJS at NYC :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:48pm

Funny thing was that the Red Zone host felt compelled to tell us what an incumbent is.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:43pm

The Broncos seem to have Champ Bailey following AJ Green on both sides of the field. I'm a fan of that kind of defense, when you have such clear #1 WR and a #1 CB, it seems to give the offense too much of an advantage to not do that, but so few defenses do.

A holding penalty (C Jeff Faine on Von Miller) negates a hell of a throw and catch from Dalton to Green to convert a 3rd and 15, and Bailey picks off Dalton's 3rd and 25 heave.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:43pm

Charles Tillman just forced his fourth (!) fumble today. The Bears have recovered three of them. This last one was returned inside the 5 yard line, so the Bears just missed another defensive TD.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:45pm

Roughing the passer penalty on Cleveland: "Hit the quarterback above the neck."

Rich Gannon after the replay: "Yeah, you can see him club Flacco on the shoulder."

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:50pm

The Bears took out their entire first team defense after going up 51-12. Chris Johnson then runs 80 yards for a TD on the first play against that defense.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:51pm

In the same moment, it looks like the Broncos just won (touchdown to Eric Decker), and the Redskins just lost (turnover on downs).

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by SFC B (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 4:52pm

Buffalo is at their 30 facing a 3rd and 8 trailing Houston 21-9. There is 10:32 remaining. Chandler drops what would have been a 1st down pass. They punt. This seems to me to be the wholly wrong choice. How many more possessions did Buffalo think they were going to get? The Texans are more than capable of pulling off a 5-6 minute drive and just letting the clock finish the job.

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Luck
by Purds :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 5:02pm

I can't see the game. How is it that Luck has 400+ yards passing, no interceptions, but only 23 points?

64
Re: Luck
by justanothersteve :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 5:13pm

The Colts have attempted 5 FG and two were missed. Not the entire story, but I'd guess that's a contributing factor.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 5:07pm

Redskins have had two touchdowns negated by two pretty weak penalties inside the 2-minute warning. The refs are just relentless this game! Evan Royster finally scored for a third time on this drive to put them within 8, but the refs cost them too much time.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Nevis (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 5:09pm

The Arizona receiver couldn't get out of bounds, so he tried to lateral the ball out of bounds. A Packer hit it, but it still went out of bounds. The refs stopped the clock. Why don't more players do this when they need to get our of bounds but are being tackled?

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:12pm

For the same reason that kick returners rarely know that if they field a kickoff with one foot out of bounds, the kick is considered out of bounds, and the returning team gets the ball at the 40.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 5:14pm

Charles Tillman just got 3 more snaps on offense in victory formation (following up on a discussion in one of the articles earlier this week). When he ran onto the field with less than 2 minutes remaining, Thom Brenneman got all excited that he was coming out to play on offense. Brian Billick immediately told him that he was just coming out for victory formation. Many Bears fans (including me) were yelling the same thing at their TVs.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Taking A Knee w... :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:06pm

The Raiders scored a 55-yard touchdown that was called back on a holding penalty. I can't remember seeing as many touchdowns called back due to penalty across the NFL as I have this week.

It seems like the Redskins have had more touchdowns called back due to penalty this season than any team I've seen--does anybody know where I could look that stat up to see if my perception = reality?

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:19pm

Refs in PIT-NYG call "blow to the head on a defenseless receiver." Replay shows the receiver was hit in the chest.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:21pm

Should note that this comes just a few plays a huge DPI on what was a good defensive play.

One play later the running back is clearly stopped short of the end zone, yet the review calls it a TD. Even Phil Simms can't believe what he's seeing.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by JMM* (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:22pm

Cruz has his head up his @55?

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Jim D (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:22pm

Yeah, refs killed the Steelers on that drive with that call in the end zone as well as the pass interference earlier in the drive..both seemed like bad calls.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:21pm

At this point Ryan Clark has to know that if he does anything remotely close to unnecessary roughness he'll get flagged. Just like Bernard Pollard. Its pretty clear the refs target certain guys who have reputations as head hunters.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Jim D (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:23pm

I was wondering if Clark's was a reputation call.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:26pm

Neither QB in this game having a good day. Giants are getting consistent pressure on Roethlisberger, and Manning has hit a Steelers defender in the hands three times, one of which was a pick. Thanks God for the Steelers running game suddenly exploding over the last three weeks.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:27pm

Roethlisberger throws it into the dirt, Giants pick it a incomplete pass and run it in for a TD. Roethlisberger is looking at the officials in disbelief.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:29pm

Refs uphold it. Something is wrong here.

78
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by 'nonymous (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:28pm

Shameful sequence of bad calls in the NYG-PIT game. 41 yard pass interference on the Steelers, followed by a personal foul after the Steelers stop the Giants on 3rd and goal. Both were bad calls with big effect, where the defense actually made a great play. Why not simply make penalties reviewable? I'm sure the refs would be glad to correct those calls.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by JMM* (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:33pm

Not these refs

91
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by 'nonymous (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:36pm

...or maybe reviews aren't the answer! That review was a farce.

Cruz is sitting out a drive or two for bruised ribs, sustained on what "officially" was a helmet-to-helmet hit. If Clark can be fined for illegal hits that aren't penalized, maybe the league should pay for that penalty?

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:30pm

Wow looks like the G-men are getting some post-Hurricane aid! Way to boost moral, refs.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:31pm

Pittsburgh 7 Officials 14

This is disgraceful.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:31pm

Big Ben fumbles an incomplete pass.
The ball came out before he throws... that's... the rule I guess.

83
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:31pm

Refs in NJ are really screwing over the Steelers.
They just called a fumble what seemed to be nothing more than an incomplete pass. On top of the bad calls above.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:31pm

So the score is now PIT 7 - REF 14.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Anonymous3467813 (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:32pm

Refs are just full on cheating to get NY a win. 42 yard DPI that wasn't close. H2h in the chest. A run stopped half a yard short that gets called a TD. An obvious incomplete pass getting called a fumble for a TD the other way. This is not a football game.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Anonymousasabove (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:36pm

Oh yeah and Cruz gets away with faking an injury, bruised ribs on the h2h. While Miller actually was hit helmet to helmet with no flag. The league office needs to call the game or get replacements in there right now and correct the score.

103
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by 'nonymous (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:51pm

No, I don't think the refs are part on any conspiracy-- I don't know how you mess up reviews that badly, but we've seen it before. They certainly won't change the score. I hope the Steelers can recover the points and pull out a win.

106
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Anonymousasabove (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:03pm

I don't think there's a conspiracy either. I think a couple of officials have decided independently to give NY the emotional win maybe consciously maybe not. It's still cheating, and it's been absolutely flagrant thus far.

87
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:33pm

Commentators are comparing it to the Tuck Rule.
But in the tuck rule he had possession, and then fumbled it.
With Ben, he lost possession and managed to push the ball fw.
Even as a Steeler fan I have to agree with the refs here.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:34pm

His arm is fully extended when the ball comes out. I don't care who you're a fan of, that's an incomplete pass.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:36pm

As I saw it, he gets the ball knocked out but he manages to push the ball fw.
You could argue that that means possession (I would disagree), but it's not as clear as you state it.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:37pm

The QB does not lose a possession because someone on the other team touches it while its in his hand. I honestly have no idea what you think you're seeing.

99
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:42pm

I see a ball come out of his hand before Ben manages to half throw / push it forward.
What are you seeing?

102
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:50pm

I thought it was tuck rule all the way at first. Then on replay it was close but I now believe the refs got it right. QB loses control of the ball after contact from the DE and then it doesn't matter after that since control is never reestablished. Fumble.

I could be wrong on that rules interpretation but it's hard to believe the refs would botch something like that.

98
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by 'nonymous (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:42pm

The Gaint hit Ben's arm as he cocked it back to throw. That made Ben's arm wobble as he tried to throw, or maybe to pump fake. The ball was wobbling along with his arm, but it wasn't slipping from his grip until the very end, when he tried to pull it back in. The rules are very clear: that's an incomplete pass.

100
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:45pm

On the review where the commentator is saying it's a fumble, I'm now seeing it didn't come out as much as I saw it the first time.

96
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:39pm

It's a forward pass. It might not be a lovely forward pass, but Roethlisberger was pushing it forward just as much as half of the shovel passes you'll see.

88
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Karl Cuba :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:33pm

So how are the refs going to stop Redman?

151
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:15pm

Apparently they can't :)

94
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by young curmudgeon :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:37pm

Bring back the replacement refs. Bill Levy's (sp?) crew is at least consistent, but 'consistently wrong in one direction' is not a good thing.

95
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:39pm

I thought on the PI that the DB put both his arms around the WR while the ball was in the air, maybe he didn't pull him but he should know better than to do that. I think that was a questionable call, but the DB has to be more disciplined.

The TD looked like the tip of the ball crossed the line, not sure why people think that one is outrageous. At least it was close enough not to overturn it.

The Unnecessary Roughness call was terrible.

The fumble was a tricky one. By the letter of the law it might be fumble, just because there is no way you can say for sure if Big Ben possessed the ball after it was tipped. But very close.

97
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:41pm

I thought the PI was PI. But the roughness call in the end zone was terrible. I was OK with the TD because it looked like the RB was on top of somebody else and thus not down.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:59pm

The roughing call was blatantly wrong but only in the fact that it was called a blow to the head. The defender pounded a defenseless receiver should have been the call. That said, I still didn't like the call but it's one of those penalties that appears to not be very consistant to my eyes which stinks.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CJS at NYC :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:09pm

Cruz was being manhandled in the end zone before the pass. Thought that was the flag at first.

109
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:19pm

that's legal 5 yards downfield

110
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CJS at NYC :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:24pm

Beyond 5. I have him in FF so was watching closely.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:27pm

Yeah, that looked about right at first until I saw a hit and Cruz down and motionless. My wife immediately called out that it was a hit to the sternum.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:31pm

hahaha
Did she actually call it "the sternum"?

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:34pm

LOL! Yup!

It was oddly specific. :)

She quickly followed with: that was nowhere near his head.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:46pm

for clarification

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:48pm

She makes up for being an Eagles fan in other areas. ;)

101
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Anonymousasabove (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 6:48pm

Crazy DPI number 2! OK not crazy. Still wrong but at least it was almost defensible as a call.

105
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:00pm

Doug Martin is very, very good.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Jimmy :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:54pm

He reminds me of Emitt Smith (or at least as much as any back since Smith).

108
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Anonymousasabove (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:18pm

Big pass for the Giants. Harrison is being pulled back from behind, but really, who cares at this point?

112
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CJS at NYC :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:26pm

Vikes just kicked a figgie that should have been DoG but somehow I don't think there will be 30 outraged posts about it.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by platypus (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:25pm

On that return the refs didn't feel like pretending it was a block in the back, so they went ahead invented a foul. Illegal blindside block!

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:29pm

I looked it up for you, look below.
I didn't think it was "unnecessary contact"

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:27pm

Article 9 It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in a defenseless
posture.
(a)Players in a defenseless posture are:
(8)A player who receives a “blindside” block when the blocker is moving toward his own endline and
approaches the opponent from behind or from the side.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by TomC :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:33pm

Aka the "Warren Sapp / Chad Clifton" rule.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by platypus (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:31pm

If you cut backwards of your own accord you don't get forward progress from where you started running backwards. That's just when you get pushed back by a hit.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:46pm

Jesus every time I flip over to Bucs/Raiders Doug Martin is breaking a long TD.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by platypus (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:47pm

Overheard in that conference:
What's the flag?
Spearing.
Against NY?
Oh yeah. My bad. Never mind. Force of habit.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:49pm

Mike Wallace is hit helmet to helmet while he's on the ground. Refs pick up the flag after a stern talk-to from Bill Levy.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:51pm

Its clearly the correct call. The WR was not considered defenseless and was trying to get back up.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:54pm

Yup, he's a runner at that point.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by platypus (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:55pm

Defenselessness is not part of the spearing rule. That's a different foul.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:55pm

Wallace delivered one of the nicest slant 'n burns I've seen.
On a serious note, how fast is Wallace?

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:59pm

Wallace used to be one of the fastest guys in the NFL. Don't know if that still holds; he hasn't been as impressive the past two seasons.

130
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by burgmeister :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:57pm

Can we have a vote for who is the "Biggest Idiot", Terry Bradshaw or Phil Simms? Bradshaw drove me away from pre-game shows, Simms may drive me to mute entire games. So frustrating.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:58pm

I never care about commentators. They don't really annoy me, but Simms is in a retarded level of his own.
With excuses with to the retarded people.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:02pm

Simms isn't an idiot, he just isn't good at being a color commentator. Terrific studio analyst.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by LionInAZ :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 9:59pm

I vote for Bob Costas.

131
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 7:57pm

#98 Tracy of the Giants is fast also... wow.

134
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:01pm

For some reason Tomlin thought a kicker was more likely gain ten yards than a Running back was to gain one.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by platypus (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:02pm

That was a stupid call. A sneak there is going to pick up the half yard needed. Why give up all that yardage?

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:01pm

Wow, I think Tomlin will be retiring the Suisham Sweep for awhile.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:01pm

Steelers down by three, going for a FG to tie the game...but it's a fake!

Because nobody would expect a fake on a play that could tie the game!!!

Fake fails miserably, Giants still have the lead. Wow. Worst coaching decision I've seen in quite a long time.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:03pm

I'm not sure a single Giant was fooled by that.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:06pm

It looked like more Steelers were confused than Giants.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:04pm

It's only a bad call if Eli drives for either a score or a big field position flip-flop. Steelers defense is dominating right now.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by platypus (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:06pm

Going for it is not a bad decision. Trying the fake instead of a conventional play is.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:08pm

Totally agree with this. A simple sneak might have worked.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:13pm

I'm inclined to agree but it's possible they saw something on tape that showed a weakness on the Giants short FG plays. Barring that, yeah, better to run a real play there.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by DRohan :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 12:36am

That was exactly my take on the situation. As far as going for it, it reminded me of the Seahawks-Packers game. The Seahawks failed on 4th down inside the 5, but they were able to stop GB and get the ball back in prime position. But because of what happened next I don't think anyone remembers. Anyway, I wish more coaches were more aggressive like that.

143
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:07pm

Case 1: Steelers kick FG, tie game, kick off, Giants are stopped. Game is tied.

Case 2: Steelers turn over ball on downs. Giants are stopped.

Why is Case 2 better than Case 1?

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by DRohan :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 12:37am

Field position

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:07pm

Probalistically, a sneak or a plunge is much, much more likely to convert, and much, much less likely to result in a turnover. (I may have actually hallucinated Suisham fumbling.)

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:19pm

Not only that, but the difference in field position if you fail is likely meaningful.

148
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:12pm

So if Eli throws a pick-6 it's a good call again?
I don't think the result determines whether it was a good decision or not.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:18pm

I didn't say that so no. Going for it was a good call.

155
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:21pm

You said
"It's only a bad call if Eli drives for either a score or a big field position flip-flop."

It's right there for all of us to read.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Theo :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:38pm

yes, but not with a fake FG.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CJS at NYC :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:08pm

So Martin is getting Strasberged & backup RB fumbles. This somewhat watchable Raiider game is messing up the late game rhythm.

147
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by 'nonymous (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:09pm

Aw, come on, Giants-- try some plays to actually gain some yards. Don't just try to draw long pass interference! I really can't respect that (no matter how successful it's been today).

150
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:13pm

I can't really blame them for doing what works.

But here's an opportunity to agree with Simms - I think that if DPI is going to be such a ticky-tack penalty, it should be 15 yards. In most cases it's impossible to know whether the receiver would have caught the ball cleanly.

154
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:20pm

If it's changed to that then every DB will just yank down their guy when they are beat.

No thanks.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:29pm

Yeah, like they do in college on every single play.

Try again.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 9:10pm

I don't need to try anything. College isn't the pro game. Not even close.

Were the rule to be implemented in the NFL players will be coached to bring guys down because they can if they are beat on long plays. DBs in college for the most part don't even have the talent to pull off such a thing.

Any way you slice it, changing the rule is not an easy of a fix as many would like to believe.

168
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by NYMike :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 10:43pm

I got spam filtered out of longer reply, but I'm thinking 15 yards from the spot of the foul for unsportsmanlike conduct on an obvious take-down, plus 15 for "mere" PI would do the trick.

187
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 5:45pm

Definitely a better solution than just adopting the college rule.

The problem really is, as we all know, the interpretation aspect of PI. Reviewing all PI has been continuously voted down by the owners and competition committee so that is out.

157
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 8:31pm

Leaving aside the officiating issues, this may have been the best game the Steelers have played this year. That's a damned good Giants team they beat.

160
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by glickmania :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 9:15pm

Absolutely the best game they've played. Couldn't agree more.

Running game was terrific and not many teams can harass Eli like that and basically shut the Giants down in the second half. Not to mention a great job not giving Eli a chance to do the last minute thing again by running out the clock.

161
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Just Another Falcons Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 9:39pm

Falcons starting slowly on national TV; thought we'd gotten over that in the Denver game this year.

162
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 9:48pm

Man if the Falcons had a good RB who could catch the ball they would be awesome.

163
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Just Another Falcons Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 9:52pm

Falcons get one good play (Go route Jones) plus a couple of penalties, but can't run the ball and Bryant ganks the FG. Not Atlanta's night so far.

164
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by young curmudgeon :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 9:52pm

First half of Steelers-Giants: "We're secretly switching the regular NFL referees with the worst replacement refs from earlier in the season...can these fans tell the difference?"

Fourth quarter of Steelers-Giants: "We're secretly switching the Steelers' defense from the Denver, Oakland, and Tennessee games with the Steel Curtain...can the Giants tell the difference?"

The NFL is missing a tie-in opportunity with Folger's.

166
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by CJS at NYC :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 9:59pm

So on that big play Robinson is thinking "I'd better keep an eye on Romo. He's only 30 yards away."

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Just Another Falcons Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 10:31pm

Ware candidate for fastest sack of the week; completely unblocked on Ryan; Baker takes inside man and Rogers runs immediately into pass route.

169
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 10:43pm

That's a really obvious false start by Romo, right? The QB can't jerk his head up and down to simulate the snap. Philip Rivers knows.

170
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Just Another Falcons Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 10:53pm

Nice 1 min drive by Atlanta for last second FG, aided by Dallas injury TO and penalty to stop clock. 6 all at half

171
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jw124164 :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 11:11pm

Romo sacked himself there ...

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 11:42pm

Reminded me of Jim Everett's Phantom Sack vs. SF in the 1989 NFC Championship Game.

172
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 11:21pm

JUST EXTEND THE DAMN GOAL POSTS

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jonnyblazin :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 11:22pm

whoops, it didn't go over. My point still stands

175
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Just Another Falcons Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 11:42pm

Nice Turner run sets up Falcon go-ahead TD. Rare statement this year.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Lance :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 11:50pm

Man. Carter for the Cowboys is playing well at LB. If only the rest of the team could do that.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 11/04/2012 - 11:59pm

Is it just me, or are the Cowboys getting a ton of yardage after initial contact throughout this game? Regardless of the ultimate result of the play, I've seen any number of broken tackles or failure-to-wrap-up hits where Cowboys runners didn't go down. That kickoff return by Dunbar following the FG was just another example: he dithered at the goal line and got hit at the 10, but broke the tackle and kept going...

179
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Just Another Falcons Fan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 12:04am

Prevent D vs Hurry-up O; not pretty. Cowboys within 3

180
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Just Another Falcons Fan (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 12:09am

Jaquizz Rodgers for the first down and more

184
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by jw124164 :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 12:38am

He saves the game there with two good 3rd down pickups. He's not exactly speedy, but changes direction on a dime and seems to have a nose for the 1st down line.

181
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Michael LaRocca (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 12:34am

I was going to tweet "It's 4 o'clock. Have the Panthers lost yet?" Then I got home 5 minutes later and saw that we were winning one. Surprise surprise surprise.

185
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Jim W. (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 12:48am

Dallas' defense played about as well as one could hope for with Ratliff hurt and the hole beside Bruce Carter.

Romo, Witten, and a gimpy Austin not enough on offense. Close but no cigar.

186
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Jim W. (not verified) :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 1:14am

Not that the defense played well, but I wasn't that bullish on their pass defense even with Lee healthy.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Marko :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 10:17pm

Terrible play call and execution by the Eagles results in a 99 yard pick-6.

Goodbye, Andy Reid. And goodbye, Michael Vick.

189
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Lvess :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 10:18pm

Andy Reid should be fired at halftime for allowing this catastrophy of an offensive line to happen. How many weeks does it take to realize that perhaps, just perhaps, an extra blocker or two in the backfield might help. Week, after week, after week teams bomb the gaps around the center and they just can't block it and show no signs or realizing or fixing the problem.

190
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 10:38pm

Run defense seems to be a thing of the past judging by these two teams

191
Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by troycapitated p... :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 11:22pm

At the half the Eagles are gaining just 4 yards per pass attempt before yardage lost to sacks is even taken into account. Including the 3 sacks they are gaining just 2.4 yards per attempted pass.

Meanwhile they've gained 8.6 yards per rush attempt.

21 attempted passes, including sacks vs. 18 rushing attempts is fairly balanced, but the results are obviously not balanced at all. Even for somebody with Andy Reid's long-standing reputation for being pass happy, this seems like the kind of disparity that would force you to take notice and adjust your play calling.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by BJR :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 11:36pm

Above all they have to stop ordering deep drops for Vick whilst their injury-ravaged O-line has no ability to block

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by RickD :: Mon, 11/05/2012 - 11:34pm

Cover DeSean Jackson? Now why would anybody want to do that?

Seriously, he's still quite probably the most dangerous man in the NFL to let loose in the secondary when he's already got the ball. (Though based on the last two games, Doug Martin is pretty dangerous, too.)

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Tue, 11/06/2012 - 12:02am

Bill Leavy just phoned in to rule that Vick fumbled on that play.

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Re: Week 9 Open Discussion Thread
by Intropy :: Tue, 11/06/2012 - 12:55am

nm

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