DISRESPECT!!!

I guess drafting Merriweather (sp?) was a really good move.

HPLCs have no respect for Rodney Harrison

Super Bowls tainted... just like Randy Orton's reign as WWE Champ!

Wow and I thought the preseason had been uneventful other than the Vick deal so far. Waited until last day to unleash the mayhem, eh?

RE: 3
Not only that but i wonder what lawyer milloy is thinking right now. He got cut for a cheater. wasn't harrison a team leader too? Screw the patriots go redskins.

This may actually be good for the Patriots. That pushes him back into about week 9 or 10 before he sustains his season-ending injury. He should last through their big game in Indianapolis now.

anybody else in here hoping for one more 'breaking news' item tonight?

I don't know how to spell shactenfreude, but I know what it feels like.

Pats are cheaters! Cheaters, cheaters, cheaters!!!

Raiders might pass Pates like thief in night, too.

R Seymour and R Harrison out for W1. Jets might win game. Raiders going at leasy 10-6. Pates problems might make team be like 9-7 or 10-6. Raiders gets home field advantage in playoff game.
Pates dynasty over!!!! Raiders on rise!

Will Harrison be the only one in trouble? It seems like a large scale investigation , at least from the sketchy reports I've seen.

Harrison just held a conference call. In typical style, he didn't mince words. Said he used the banned substance HGH (didn't name it) to heal from his injuries, not steroids. Said there was no excuse for it, sorry, etc. End of call.

Full details in link on name.

Is this what they mean by The Patriot Way?

4 games?????? If he was a pro cyclist he would be banned for 2 years. NFL doping policy is a joke, you have to be an idiot to get caught. All due respect Mr Harrison.

re12

PatriotsWay is cheating and winning close games. Never true great team. 2001 Pates, 2003 Pates, 2004 Pates no match for 3 Super Bowl Championship Raiders team. Not even in same ballpark.

The disrespect joke is lamer than an Ernest movie. Let it die, just like Rodney Harrison's career...and reputation. Oh wait, that was dead a long time ago.

re 14: the 2004 patriots were a dominant team, they won their first two playoff games 20-3 and 41-27, the should have beat the eagles by at least 10 possibly 17. By the way, im not a patriots fan, but can they get eugene wilson on some hgh, he's always hurt.

Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

#16: Guys get hurt more often precisely *because* their muscle mass gets too heavy and dense for their tendons and ligaments to support, hence a torn ACL.

I'm not going to apologize for openly wishing bad things happen to the Pats and thus their players (short of death anyway, I found no joy in Marquise Hill's drowning).

The '01 and even the '03 Pats has some ridiculous luck, but that '04 team was unwatchably boring because of the way they ground opponents beneath their hobnailed boots every Sunday. That team was the best of this decade.

Is he the first professional athlete to actually admit HGH use? Snarky comments aside, anyone else think this is a positive by-product of Goodell being a hardliner? As in, if Harrison denies he's on HGH, yet the NFL knows he's been linked they could potentially suspend him for more than 4 games because he lied? In essence, Goodell could just ask, "Did you purchase HGH with intent to use?" If Harrison says yes, 4 games under drug policy, if Harrison says, no 8 games under the behavior policy.

I know many people think this could be way hard-handed... but I think it's pretty cool... and to my knowledge he is one of the few active players to admit to HGH use... no?

re17

2002 Bucs best team of decade.
2002 Raiders 2.
2000 Ravens 3.
2000 Raiders 4.
2004 Pates 5.
If you look at the stats and results and if you saw the games you see this is correct ranking.

Sorry Raiderjoe, but the '04 Pats lost fewer games than any of those teams AND looked far more dominant in their wins. They only had one "legit" loss (that game against the Fins was a complete fluke). And it just KILLS me to be saying this BTW.

DVOA
2002 Bucs 34.0%
2002 Raiders 30.9%
2000 Ravens 30.2%
2000 Raiders 24.4%
2004 Patriots 35.7%

So no, the 2004 Pats were the best team of that group.

The best team in the last decade is the 99 Rams, at 45.8%

re21

Stats don't tell true story all the time

"Stats don’t tell true story all the time"

Neither does RaiderJoe.

#21: And to think I didn't even need stats to tell me the '04 Pats were the best :-)

BTW did you hear Harrison got suspended?

The '99 Rams were so dominant I'm always shocked to see that they lost 3 games. I keep picturing them as 14-2.

"If you look at the stats and results and if you saw the games you see this is correct ranking."

"Stats don’t tell true story all the time"

Re: 25

LOL!!!

OK, please, let's not let a discussion of Rodney Harrison turn into a thoughtless Patriots-bashing thread full of undeserved cheap shots. Football Outsiders posters generally have more class.

All right, anyone who frequents this site knows that I am a hardcore Patriots fan. And I also like (well, liked) Rodney Harrison.

Everyone also probably remembers that I was one of the ones leading the charge for keeping Shawn Merriman out of the Pro-bowl last year, and that I detest Barry Bonds, and just about any other cheater who uses banned substances to get a competitive edge.

So am I conflicted? A little... But let's not overreact.

Harrison admits to using HGH, to help speed the healing process. I respect him for admitting it--not only does it come across as more honorable than certain other football players caught in compromising circumstances recently, it also seems smarter--precisely BECAUSE it comes across as more honorable. Now I'm not naieve enough to think that his forthrighness has nothing to do with Goddell's new tough policy...but I'm behind that, as well. So maybe it is working.

As far as Harrison goes--I'll reserve complete judgement until all the details come out, but I will point out that, if it's true that he only used the HGH to speed the healing process and never used steroids, then where he falls is a shade of grey--is using banned substances that help you heal faster rather than enhance your performance as bad using steroids to get stronger/faster in game? And is it that much worse than having specialized trainers and nutritional analysts cook you up highly specialized diets and exercise regimens when you're recovering, and give you oxygen and legal drugs and medical operations to speed your healing process when you are hurt? Obviously, there's a spectrum, and before too long, as medical science advances, the NFL, and every other major sports league, is going to have increasing difficulties figuring out where to draw the line. For instance--what if it comes to light that Tommy John surgery actually improves a pitcher's arm? Will the MLB ban such voluntary surgeries to artificially enhance one's physical abilities? On one hand, you don't want the team that affords the best chemists and surgeons to win, but on the other hand, how extreme or unusual does a medical procedure or drug have to be before it passes from healing method to an illegal substance/procedure?

That being said, there is a clearly drawn CURRENT line in the NFL, and Harrison crossed it. I understand his drive to want to get back into the game, but he knew the rules, and broke them. So while I don't think he's a low a person as Barry Bonds, I have lost a lot of respect for him. He should serve his four game suspension, and should not attend the Pro-bowl this year, regardless of how well he plays. And I think he has certainly lost any bid he may have had for the HoF. I find it kind of sad that such a seemingly dedicated player would do this and tarnish his legacy, not to mention hurt his team.

That being said, given his penchant for injury, maybe it DOES actually help the Pats a little. :-) Seriously, I think they'll be fine. Eugene Wilson is competent as long as someone competent is across from him, James Sanders was coming on pretty well last year, and Brandon Merriweather injects youth into the position. And Samuel is back, so corner becomes a lot stronger. The Pats secondary, barring major injury, will be a little shaky at first and then tighten up, even without Harrison. Far better than becoming reliant on Harrison, and then falling apart when he gets injured. Still, I bet Belichick wishes he could get Hawkins back. Anyone know if he's signed anywhere yet?

27: You're missing the point in your eagerness to excuse Harrison. Using something to "heal faster" as opposed to "be stronger" is a meaningless distinction. One of the well known uses of anabolic steroids is to speed recovery time. Practically all performance enhancers can either improve recovery or baseline performance. If you believe that he only used HGH and not steroids because he just wanted to heal faster rather than because HGH is undetectable while steroids are easily detected, well, I've got a bridge in New England I'd like to sell you.

27
I agree with your general sentiment, but I think you are confused about your distinction between steroids and HGH. Most athletes use steroids to help heal and repair muscle (just like HGH). A person won't develop muscle mass just by taking steroids, even though they will by taking HGH. People on steroids get bigger because they not only make exercise more efficient, but they allow an athlete to exercise for a longer period of time. Steroids are performance enhancing because they allow a person to work out longer and more frequently, while speeding up the recuperating process.

"So am I conflicted? A little… But let’s not overreact."

'Nuff said.

> If you believe that he only used HGH and not steroids because he just wanted to heal faster rather than because HGH is undetectable while steroids are easily detected, well, I’ve got a bridge in New England I’d like to sell you.

Hopefully the Tobin?

Straight on, MJK is rationalizing in the extreme. I see no difference between Harrison's story and Merriman's, except that Harrison is trying to pawn off use from two years back with this "healing" excuse. Harrison's "I did not inhale steroids" (only second-hand HGH) distinction is laughable.

Ever since 1999, I noticed the NFL players seemed to make an incredible jump in physicality. In 2003 I think it jumped again. Prohormones and HGH my friends. Mankind didn't speed up in evolution 7 years ago, something has been going on. HGH doesn't bother me...it's not evil like meth.

I actually wonder if HGH is good for an NFL player considering how damaging to the body the game is. Look at Earl Campbell I wonder what would be different if he had been taking HGH? Maybe they should all be taking a weekly shot of HGH on Monday as post recovery? Would HGH better protect players from future physical breakdowns after retirement?

28- agreed. Harrison just had a smarter defense than the typical roider " my trainer rubbed cream on my arm".

The guys i knew that took Human Growth, took so to get bigger " taller and more muscular". Not to increase recovery time. There have been interesting things/aspects of Human growth hormone.

The people that take roids, take it because when you lift, you get stronger. Their bench might go up 5-10 pounds a week for weeks.

Not by improving your heeling time and benching 2-3 times per week instead of once or twice. The whole point is to break down and fatigue your muscles, and then have them grow back stronger than they were.

LOL @ 2

Nothing like a good chemistry joke.

The irony I'm enjoying here is how high and mighty the Pats fans were acting about Shawne Merriman last year. It was mildly funny when they failed to realize that their team had signed a juiced punter, but now it's just hilarious.
I don't dislike the Patriots, just their Masshole fans. I'm sure many posters here feel the same way.

As a Pats fan this is definitely a blow, especially coming from a guy I've always believed has tremendous respect for the game. Not surprisingly, it's much harder to take when it's one of 'your guys' - and Rodney is/was definitely one of ours.
In any case, it seems unlikely given the Pats and NFL's penchant for secrecy for the details to come out here but there are a few things that seem out of the ordinary.
-Rodney admitted to using HGH, which the NFL doesn't test for. Why? I can understand how this might lead to a shorter suspension, but was Goodell sitting on some damning evidence? I'm not doubting whether Rodney used HGH or not, just questioning where the evidence is coming from.
A few reports I've seen suggest this is in some way linked to a federal investigation, which means we could be in store for more of this. If that's the case why is only one player involved so far? Who's going to make the next move on this, the feds or the NFL?
I want to make it clear I'm not apologizing or justifying HGH use, just pondering what comes next.

There are HGH users on every NFL team and I'm sure that many of them are big name players, so please stop with the jealous whining. Harrison got caught, he'll take his punishment and lets move on.

To me the more interesting thing is how the NFL should handle the potential legitimate use of HGH in the healing of injuries. I've had micro fracture surgery and there are some doctors who have advised me to take HGH in order to regrow cartilage. I think that eventually the use of HGH will become somewhat mainstream and the NFL will have to re-examine its policy.

Re: 27

"Integrity is the basing of one's actions on an internally consistent framework of principles."

You're doing it wrong.

re:36

As I understand it, there are no reliable tests for HGH. Click my name for an article a year back when a baseball player admitted to using HGH. It says that testing for it is impractical.

The NFL is constantly preaching that its drug testing regime is amongst the best in the world but if someone in athletics was found to be using performance enhancing drugs they'd get banned for at least a year (in the UK anyway). Why do cheats only get suspended for a month in the NFL? As far as I am concerned I would quite happily never let any player who has cheated play again, it devalues the game too much.

Re: 27

Essentially all performance enhancing drugs speed recovery time. That's why they were discovered and popularized- they make sick people healthy. Making a good athlete better is a secondary use.

> I think that eventually the use of HGH will become somewhat mainstream and the NFL will have to re-examine its policy.

Why wouldn't the same logic hold for anabolic steroids-- or any PEDs? Because HGH is "safe"? I have my doubts about that...

re: 40
This is no reason to doubt the NFL's drug testing - no one has a reliable test for HGH. As for the suspension, it's still 1/4 of the season.
Just for the sake of comparison, look at MLB and Giambi. He's admitted on multiple occasions to juicing and has essentially gotten a pass from the commissioner because he was cooperative.
Chris Mortensen has a podcast up that goes into a little more detail about the investigation and what might be coming down next. I lost count of how many times he and Len Pasquarelli use the word "passion" to describe players who use banned substances, but there's some decent info.

According to ESPN
"Earlier this year, Albany County district attorney David Soares said that he would provide the NFL, Major League Baseball and any other leagues the names of players believed to have made purchases through the alleged distribution ring."

So it looks very likely that Harrison is just the first one on the list. Since HGH cannot be tested for, accused players have the option of spontaneously admitting use, and hope for some leniency, or deny it and take a chance fighting the accusation in an official inquiry. I guess whatever other players are involved chose the latter, and it will all boil down to what the evidence looks like, but of course it will be quite complicated - a matter of matching dates, travel/shipment records, independent testimony, etc. On the other hand, given the relatively mild suspension Harrison got, perhaps more players will take their chances and fess up now.

It will be interesting to see what happens, either way.

According to studies, the effects of steroid use last for four years. Harrison will be a cheater in every game he plays until 2011.

43: I don't doubt the NFL's testing, I think the penalty is far too weak. Any player using steroids shouldn't play while they could still be benefitting from their cheating. Four games is not enough.

Just because baseball has the worst anti drug regime doesn't mean the NFL can't do better.

Re 27:
HGH is illegal for the use he specifies and it does enhance performance. Steroids also helpe heal which is why it is used for medicinal purposes. He's trying to split hairs but it doesn't matter. The problem is using a controlled substance. Oxygen is legal, some supplements are legal, anything that is legal in the US AFAIK is legal in sports, banned and controlled substances are the problem.

Re 40:
Testing is not 100% reliable. You can't automatically ban someone for life if you can't be absolutely sure there wasn't a fluke in the test.

The guy who posted #27 is spinning this story so fast, so blatantly and so desperately that my vertigo acted up midway through his post.

For the record:

I am not a Harrison "apologist", nor am I trying to maintain a double standard between Harrison and Merriman. Anyone who called me that obviously didn't read the end of my post. Harrison knowingly broke the rules, and now has to serve his punishment, the same as Merriman did. IF the NFL's stated punishment was a year suspension, I would advocate that for both players (however, I think too lengthy a suspension would be counterproductive...by keeping the punishment more tolerable, you encourage players who might get caught to come clean, as I think occurred in this case). I even go further and suggest that the NFL should bar Harrison from the Pro-bowl, as Merriman should have been. The NFL needs to send a message. I advocate the exact same punishment for Harrison that I did for Merriman--I have no double standard. At no point did I suggest that the San Diego Chargers as an organization were cheaters, so I do not accept that attack on the Patriots.

However, my "apoligist" statements were more pondering the bigger issue that this raises, that some other posters have addressed. Various chemical and surgical methods are becoming more common for helping athletes to train and recover from injury, and it's going to get harder and harder to tell the difference. I'm not actually all that familiar with HGH and how it is different from steroids (other than the fact that I am not aware of any nasty side effects that HGH has of the type that steroids have,a nd other than the fact you can't test for it)...thank you to the other posters who are informing us about them. I just think it's an interesting topic of debate: where does improved medical and physical therapy treatments end, and where does "performance enhancement" begin, and is that line currently where it should be? I don't know the answer...but Harrison's defense certainly begs the question.

Regarding Harrison's admission itself, I do think he is playing this very intelligently--far more so than most athletes do. The feds obviously have some evidence against him (either that, or he had a sudden surge of guilt, which I kind of doubt), and he knew he was in trouble, so he very smartly came clean and took his medicine. But the way he did it was especially clever. BEFORE the NFL made any announcement, he called a press conference. I encourage other people to listen to it...it's quite a contrast from many of the "me-first" whiny speeches you hear from people like Vick and PacMan. He basically admits to using HGH, denies using steroids, and then implores high school and college kids NOT to follow his example, saying that he took the easy way out and now needs to pay the price, and then apologizes to his team mates and fans. This certainly makes him seem a lot mroe honorable than many athletes. Now the cynics will say that that just means he has a better speech writer, but it certainly is a smarter approach than "I didn't realize what I was taking. Oops. I just hang around with the wrong people. Really!"

I do wonder who else is on the list, and I expect to see more names come out soon. It also wouldn't surprise me if Harrison was actually working with the feds on this, to get a lighter punishment...

Re 49:
The NFL insituted a rule in the off-season that anyone who is suspended for PEDs is not eligible for the Pro Bowl.

The reason you don't know about any nasty side effects is because HGH is relatively new. We still don't actually know a lot about long term effects of steroid use.

The line begins and ends with legal use. If the medical community and the goverment generally agree about the use of a substance or procedure for healing people then it is fair game AFAIK.

Re 50:
The feds will not go after any users. Their stated goal is to find suppliers and shut them down. They do not care about individual users.

If you want more information about PEDs I suggest you visit Steroid Nation which is linked in my name. I do not know what credentials the author has but he is a knowledgeable about the medicine involved and does a great job explaining things.

Wade Wilson has been suspended for five games for his part in having HGH. I don't know what that means - can't attend games or can't be at the Cowboy facilities for the duration?

Re: 49 and 50 and all other patriots fans.

This is my opinon, but come on lets be real now, harrison got cut by the chargers, namely marty schottenheimer, after the 2002 season for being injured and over the hill and the chargers sucked in 2002 so it's not like they had an all pro safety waiting in the wings. Then all of a sudden he goes to the patriots who go 14-2 win the superbowl and he is borderline all pro for the best defense in the league. I think harrison has been doing hgh before he tore his knee in 05.

No-one knows for sure what side-effects HGH has on regular abusers, but I'm willing to bet that it causes diabetes and hypertension, given what acromegaly does to the body. Hmmm, sounds worth it.

On a more comical note, unlike traditional anabolic steroids, it is probably more likely to make your testicles get larger rather than smaller. Although it may also have a similar effect on breast tissue. Regular observers of Harrison can fill us in on whether or not he is showing off his D-cup these days.

Just for the record, once again: HGH is not a steroid. Completely different chemical and different cellular mechanism.

Its physiological effects are fairly well characterized, since long-term treatment with HGH has been around for a while and is common in a number of medical conditions. In fact, HGH has all but supplanted anabolic steroids in the clinical therapy of severe short stature, even in children/young adults, precisely because its adverse effects are so much more limited. For purpose of muscle-mass building (such as in the treatment of AIDS) steroids are however still the most effective drug.

This is not to condone what Harrison did - a banned substance is a banned substance.

HGH's effect for performance enhancement is negligible, according to endocrinologist who actually prescribe it for legal medical purposes. It probably has a more significant role in injury recovery, but that doesn't let Rodney off the hook. Luis Castillo was suspended for a positive test at the combine when he was using steroids to help recover from a college injury.

I think Harrison handled it very well. And to be honest, I don't really blame him for taking HGH.

Everyone on this site has to believe that NFL players are taking whatever they can to stay in the league. Non-guaranteed contracts, the most violent sport in America, and the best "farm system" in sports just churning out players to replace you at a moment's notice are just some reasons why drug use is so seemingly rampant in the league. This is a grueling, ultra-violent sport that chews players up and spits them out. Heck, if long-distance runners, Tour de France cyclists, and Olympic sprinters are taking any kind "juice" they can then athletes that need to be in that shape and then get the crap kicked out of them weekly, I'm sure they are going to so whatever they can to "heal up faster."

So when Tom Jackson does that ridiculous, "Jacked Up" segment, shouldn't it be sponsored by Amgen or Bristol Myers Squibb? Let's stop burying our heads in the sand. The environment the players are in almost requires them to need some type of artificial help. Rodney was broke the rules, sure, but I think the game has almost evolved beyond the rules.

re: 57

"I think Harrison handled it very well. And to be honest, I don’t really blame him for taking HGH."

I think Harrison handled it very well too. And to be honest, I blame him for taking HGH.

It's HIS responsibility, not anyone else's.

Also, MJK... give it up. Seriously. You weren't "pondering the bigger issue that this raises" when Merriman got caught. I get that because he's a Patriot you feel compelled to 'take the heat off of him', if you will, but c'mon...

Cheaters are cheaters, no matter where they play, or what they use. And when a Miami Dolphin gets caught, feel free to put me in the front row of the guys willing to kick his sorry little butt out of the league. I love the game of football more than I love my team, and I will not have anyone - ANYONE - tainting whatever integrity it has. And frankly, neither should any of us.

ESPN is reporting that Wilson got his HGH from the same supplier as Harrison. Wonder who the third domino in this chain is going to be.

Something that might amuse patriot haters: When I saw "Wilson joins Harrison on suspended list stemming from drug investigation" I thought Eugene Wilson and was terrified a promising season was suddenly imploding.

I know I'm late to the party, but I just got back on line.

I am an avowed Colts lover, and Pats hater. That said, I think we're foolish to assume much beyond the surface here, as we have no facts. What I do think:

1) I don't believe Rodney's use of HGH is not a competitive advantage; using illegal substances to recover sooner than normal from injury is unfair.
2) I don't think Rodney is the only guy in the NFL who did this. My goodness, the first thing I thought of when I heard this was how fast Dallas Clark came back from MCL knee injury last year, going down in an early season game and then coming back before the playoffs. I'm not saying Colts players are using HGH, but I'm suggesting that it's likely that some of them are. I mean, it's an UNDECTABLE substance.
3) I had the impression that Rodney did not volunteer this information, he simply had his press conference one day before the NFL. Rodney said that the next day the NFL would announce his suspension. I give Rodney's PR crew credit for having him deliver the first word to the public, but I don't think anything here was voluntary by Rodney.

And, no, I am not gloating because the Pats lose a good player for 4 weeks. He was caught in a bizarre way, and I think many players out there might be nervous tonight that they might get caught in another bizarre way.

Sergio,

Give *what* up? Please don't put words in my mouth. I was feeling conflicted when the news broke, and I shared my thoughts, in hopes of engaging in an interesting debate. Isn't that what these message boards are about?

Cheaters are cheaters, no matter where they play, or what they use. ... I love the game of football more than I love my team, and I will not have anyone - ANYONE - tainting whatever integrity it has. And frankly, neither should any of us.

I agree with you totally. I'm not and never was arguing that Harrison should have any leniency at all--he broke the rules and deserves his four game suspension. If the NFL had decided that breaking the rules was worth an 8-game suspension, he would deserve that. Any defensiveness that came across was in response to the Patriots-haters who were suddenly jumping up and saying, incorrectly, that he was using steroids, or, irrationally, that the whole team was full of cheaters. Note--if it comes to light that other Patriots ARE using PED's, then I'll be in favor of punishing them as well.

You weren’t “pondering the bigger issue that this raises� when Merriman got caught.

No, I was arguing vehemently that he shouldn't have gone to the Pro-bowl that year. Just as I said Harrison shouldn't. I didn't know that the NFL had enacted a rule to that effect...I'm glad.

3) I had the impression that Rodney did not volunteer this information, he simply had his press conference one day before the NFL. Rodney said that the next day the NFL would announce his suspension. I give Rodney’s PR crew credit for having him deliver the first word to the public, but I don’t think anything here was voluntary by Rodney.

No, he did not suddenly get a conscience and own up. He was caught because his name came up in some kind of multi-agency bust of pharmaseutical distributors. According to the site that mactbone linked to, the Cowboys QB coach and several Pro-wrestlers were also involved.

But I do like the fact that he came out and said "I'm not going to make any excuses" and then was appealing to kisd not to follow his lead, all a full day before any public announcement was made. Very good PR move there, making the best of a bad situation.

Question for someone who knows: Do suspended players count towards the 53-man roster limit? The Patriots just announced their cuts, and I keep getting 55 players on their roster. Samuel has a roster exemption right now, but that's still one too many. Maybe I'm just miscounting, but maybe Harrison doesn't count to the roster while suspended? And does his salary for those four games (which he does not recieve) count against the cap?

Question for someone who knows: Do suspended players count towards the 53-man roster limit?
They do not.

The Patriots have pared their roster to 53, but two of those are Harrison (reserve/suspended) and Samuel (commissioner's exemption). They could, if they wished, have kept two more players.

"Cheaters are cheaters, no matter where they play, or what they use."

Then you might as well throw out 2/3 of the players in the league. Some get caught, some dont. Pull your head out of your ass.

re: MJK (62, 63)

I'm sorry if I came across a little too aggressive. I just hate it when people start keeping double standards, particularly on something I feel strongly about. Since you came across as somewhat apologetic of Harrison, I assumed the worst.

On topic with your questions, I don't think the NFL should allow some of today's banned substances unless it's definitely proven that they have absolutely no long-term effect, and they don't give the player any competitive advantage. So if HGH helps you get healthier faster, but can also help you get stronger/faster/whatever, it's a never in my book. I think players already are too big and too strong and hence will get hurt worse and worse as time goes by.

Oh, and I'm in agreement with the guy at PFT (and Purds), and I quote:

"[T]here's no difference between using banned substances to gain a competitive advantage and using HGH to accelerate the healing process. Accelerating the healing process is, by definition, a competitive advantage in a league where injuries undermine the ability of an individual and a team to be competitive".

re: 66

My head is firmly on my shoulders, thank you very much. I'm all for more stringent policies and better tests that will throw out your hypothetical 2/3 of the league, or whatever fraction you consider pertinent.

Cheaters take the honor out of the competition. I despise them, and anyone that believes in sportsmanship probably should, too.

Rich, less than a year ago you said this about Merriman:

I don't understand what you mean in #66 above here. So, are you waying that we shouldn't be harsh on Rodney? Or what?

Oops. Okay, I know nothing about HTML. Here's what Rich said about Merriman:

If he tested positive at the beginning of the season, he is still completely feeling the effects of the roids, especially the muscle mass.
I think his entire year should be discounted, and I honestly think steroids should be a full season suspension.
:: Rich Conley — 12/20/2006 @ 3:42 pm

Sergio,

That's OK. Maybe I AM a little too apologetic for Harrison. I am a fairly strong Patriots fan, and I've admired Harrison both for his play and his work ethic. Finding out about PED was a bit of a blow, mainly because I do feel very strongly about that topic, too (I am a solid anti-fan of Barry Bonds, for example).

But I do enjoy wondering and debating about such questions. I think it's worth asking "what if a drug primarily intended to heal also enhances performance?" Wasn't Lance Armstrong on drugs to help him overcome his cancer, that were theoretically performance enhancing? Should athletes that require such medicines, whether to heal injuries/illnesses related to their play or not, be barred from competing? The sportsman in me says "yes", but the more practical side of me says "no, it's not fair".

Ahh, I love Patriots fans. These are people who think Shawne Merriman should be banned for life and that Barry Bonds is the antichrist, but one of their own gets busted and suddenly it's "lets not overreact" and "we need to consider the bigger issues" and "everyone does it, he just got caught". Joe Sheehan at Baseball Prospectus has been saying seemingly forever re Bonds that no one actually cares about performance enhancing drugs, they only care about bringing down people they don't like and protecting those they do like. I wonder what causes him to have this opinion?

RE 53: This sparks a thought. That team that went 14-2 is known for their secrecy, especially regarding the health of their players. They sparked the Trainers Shall Not Speak To The Media trend. Was that just to (illegally) hide personnel issues from next week opponents? Or was it to keep people from noticing how early their guys recover from injury?

#72: "Or was it to keep people from noticing how early their guys recover from injury?"

Eh, instead of wondering, you could perhaps check historically how fast Patriots players recovered from their injuries compared to players with similar injuries on other teams. I frankly can't remember any "miraculously fast recoveries" (like, say, TO's during the Eagles' SB run - not that there's any suspicion he took anything) by the Pats in recent years, despite having more than their fair share of key player injuries.

Now, the other side of this story is Wilson, who claims he took HGH for his diabetes while he was on the Bears' staff. I thought HGH could actually cause insulin resistance in some people, who would be rather bad in people with pre-existing diabetes. Was he a total idiot? Or are there benefits that may counter-weigh the drawback?

Is there a doctor in the house who can comment on this?

re: 70

"[W]hat if a drug primarily intended to heal also enhances performance? [...] Should athletes that require such medicines, whether to heal injuries/illnesses related to their play or not, be barred from competing?"

In my book, yes. At least until/if the effects from the drugs disappear. Besides, if they're fighting an injury/disease, they might as well take time off! Otherwise, anyone taking these substances will argue they're ill and just wanted to "get better" - which will always sound like an excuse to me. If you're sick/injured and want to use this stuff, when and if it's legal, come out and say it BEFORE doing it. Then sit out whatever time you need to, then come back.

It goes against the competitive nature of sport, I know. But so does artificially enhancing yourself.

re: 71

"[N]o one actually cares about performance enhancing drugs, they only care about bringing down people they don’t like and protecting those they do like"

If I ever found out Dan Marino cheated, I'll be the first to ask they strip him of whatever records he has left. Please don't generalize.

re: 73

Funny stuff. Which is why I think the "I only did it to recover from injury" or "I was sick and it helped" will ALWAYS sound like an excuse. It just takes one guy lying about it...

All,
Can we please stop taking the Holier Than Thou stance and acting like Pats fans were the ONLY fan-base to come out against Merriman.

I'm sure there were Packers fans (just as an example) who came out against Merriman--and would feel equally conflicted today if, say, Brett Favre admitted HGH use. I mean, you have to wonder how someone his age continues to play.

Phil:

In general I agree with you, and I stated as much as a Colts fan, that I am not naive enough to think that Colts aren't doing these kinds of things.

However, the single most annoying thing about the Pats fans (and media perception of NE) this decade has been their supposition that the Pats have won not because they had better players, but because they had some magic formula ("team play," unselfish players, BB, the management, etc.) that in some way was superior to everyone else in the league. I don't think so. I think they had great players, and still do have great players.

So, it's a bit fun to poke at the hypocracy of those NE fans who all along have put forth some "holier-than-your-team" theory for their wins now that it appears their team is just like every other one: players who want to get paid, GM's who don't want to pay, and players who cut corners.

Purds, I feel the exact same way about Rodney. He cheated, he should be punished. Merriman got 4 games, so thats what he should get. Hes being punished more harshly than merriman though, because of new rules.

I'm just really fucking sick of this holier than though, OMG PATRIOTS CHEAT attitude.

I would place a HUGE bet that there is a player on every single team in professional sports who has taken HGH.

To say that one team is a bunch of cheaters because one guy got caught is naive, and ridiculous.

re: 77

"Hes being punished more harshly than merriman though, because of new rules".

Really? How so?

#76: "However, the single most annoying thing about the Pats fans (and media perception of NE) this decade has been their supposition that the Pats have won not because they had better players, but because they had some magic formula (�team play,� unselfish players, BB, the management, etc.) that in some way was superior to everyone else in the league. I don’t think so. I think they had great players, and still do have great players."

I don't think anyone says that there aren't any great players on the Pats - that would obviously be crazy. However, for being arguably the most dominant NFL team in the last 5 years or so (or one of the top 3 for sure), the Patriots got a surprisingly low number of players into the Pro Bowl, year after year. That ought to objectively mean something with respect to the perceived quality of their roster (besides, of course, DISRESPECT).

I don't think one can argue against the fact that the Patriots have been able to make the most out of their players, in terms of play level, results as well as financially, than any other team in recent memory.

See, sloo-mo, I think you're half right. Of course, as they've won the most, they've gotten the most out of the team. However, it's not been magic. They have had great players. I always think of the play where the linebacker, maybe Vrabel, is playing TE on a goal-line play in the 2004 SB, and he gets a pass thrown to him before he's turned and ready. It bounces off his head, and as he's falling, he twists in the air and catches the TD pass. And, he's just an average LB for them. That's a great play.

Sure, you can tell me all about BB's brilliance of having the LB playing offense, but with an ordinary LB, that's a drop. Where was all that brilliance in Cleveland?

I too get sick of the media mis-worship that gets heaped on all the good teams, including the Patriots. For example, there was a play in the preseason where the Pats faced 3rd and goal from like the 6. Their opponent had been blitzing all drive, and had just defeated the 2nd down play with a blitz, so it was a fair guess they might do it again. The Pats bunched up trips to the left. Stallworth and Welker ran deeper routes to the back of the endzone, clearing out the DB's, the LB's blitzed, leaving the TE uncovered as he ran to the 1 and stopped, as the "hot read". Brady threw to him, and TD. It was a very well designed play to captialize on an expected blitz, but I had to listen to the announcers (I don't remember who) go on endlessly about how great a QB Brady was because he could improvise and find a TE who was obviously out of position and turn a broken play into a score in the face of a blitz...blah blah blah. Any reader of TDZ would know that it was designed from the start. Yet we had to listen to Brady man-worship...

The fact is, the Patriots did have a "magic formula" that allowed them to win all those games...just like Billy Beane or Bill Polian or Bill Walsh, they figured out inefficiencies in the system and exploited them...switching to the 3-4 because of its versatility and rarity making it possible to get good players cheap, focusing on the DL in the draft and with their cap when other teams focused on flashier positions, focusing on adaptability to shut down any opponent's strength rather than being the same team every week. All the media-generated hype about "the Patriots team concept" got a little sickening, but I guess it's a lot easier for beat writers and lazy ESPN analysts (i.e. practically everyone other than Jaws, it seems) to talk about "the team mentality" and "nose for the goal-line", and such cliches, than it is for them to diagnose the actual reasons why teams like the Pats or the Colts succeed.

"“Hes being punished more harshly than merriman though, because of new rules�.

Really? How so? "

he can't go to the pro bowl. Merriman did.

And, for the record, could we please not stereotype Pats fans? I know there are obnoxious ones out there (as there are for any team...just look at the FOX Sports comics), but don't say "all Pats fans are obnoxious". Most of the posters here seem quite reasonable and intelligent, and not worthy of generalization, and that includes the Pats fans. Some of my favorite posters on FO seem to be Pats fans, and that's not just because I'm a Pats fan too--it's becausee they are good posters.

Purds,

I think Belichick is a better coach now than he was in Cleveland. Even Einstein made mistakes when he was young... (and when he was old, for that matter). I know you're a Colts fan...wouldn't you agree that Dungy is probably a much better coach now than he was, say, eight to ten years ago?

But you're right--the Pats have better players than many teams, or than Belichick had in Cleveland. That's partly because they have a better scouting department.

I wonder if sometimes good teams good players get overlooked or underrated a bit because ALL the players are good. I actually think I can name more "star" players playing for the Arizona Cardinals than I can for the Bears defense--because in Arizona the stars stand out because the other half of the team is lousy, but practically everyone on the Bears defense is (or was) good. The Pats do have very good players...not the very best in the league at any given position (except maybe on the DL), but solid almost all around. And that does get overlooked, partially because of the whole "team" hype we keep getting heaped on us.

Purds
Fair enough. But, can we distinguish between "True" Pats fans and the obnoxious Pats fan....Just like there are "True" Colts fans, and obnoxious Colts fans.

If you want to see an obnoxious fan, look at any Red Sox fan who started following the team 5 years ago.

FWIW, I too am tired of all the media worship, and bandwagon fans.

I hate it when Sean Salsbury is picking my team.

I'm just really sick of people on this site (and it just seems to be this site) of telling me what I, as a patriots fan, believe.

Dont be that arrogant.

re: 82

Merriman was already voted to the Pro Bowl, though. If the news had broken sooner it's likely he wouldn't have gone. But OK, point taken.

Still, I believe the punishment isn't enough (for either player). But, these are the rules of the game...

I don't understand why people get so worked up about performance enhancing drugs. How many would eschew performance enhancing drugs if it meant they'd make millions of dollars less than they otherwise would?

MJK (#84) begins his last paragraph with :
I wonder if sometimes good teams good players get overlooked or underrated a bit because ALL the players are good.

Let's save that quote for next time someone says that the list which begins "Joe Greene, Jack Ham, Mel Blount, Terry Bradshaw..." is too long since they were only that good because they enhanced one another.

Re 82:

Is Harrison being banned from the Pro Bowl really a "punishment"? He hasnt made a pro bowl in 6 years. That is sort of like "punishing" me by saying I cant play in the pro bowl.

"Pull your head out of your ass."

"Then you might as well throw out 2/3 of the players in the league."

"Dont be that arrogant."

Good old Roidney Harrison.

Glad to see he's not making too many excuses for cheating, just one or two.

Harrison never bothered to hide his name, Pats never tipped the prosecutors' hand to Harrison:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2007/09/05/harri...