Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

22 Feb 2007

Pacman Accused of Instigating Shooting

A troubling story out of NBA All-Star weekend in Las Vegas, where Titans cornerback Pacman Jones is accused of starting a fight in a strip club that ended up with a shooting outside the club in which one person was paralyzed. No one is alleging that Jones was the shooter, but the owners of the club are saying the shooter was part of Jones' entourage. Is there any player in the league more gifted on the field and more troubled off the field than Pacman Jones?

Posted by: Michael David Smith on 22 Feb 2007

109 comments, Last at 29 Jan 2009, 5:10pm by zinn21

Comments

1
by VarlosZ (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 2:12am

"Is there any player in the league more gifted on the field and more troubled off the field than Pacman Jones?"

Probably not.

I think it's an even better question if you expand the time-frame: which NFL player had the largest desparity between the value of his positive contributions on the field and his negative contributions off it?

If you include players whose bad actions occurred after their playing careers, then I assume the answer would have to be O.J. Simpson.

But how about players like Jones, who screw up while still active (or, especially, in their primes)? Off the top of my head I'd say Ray Lewis.

2
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 2:21am

What a piece of excrement, and I won't even bother with the qualifier "if what is alleged is true", since it is reported that Jones punching a stripper is on videotape. His ass oughta be run out of the league, and it is a shame that the CBA doesn't allow appropriate penalties for the likes of him or Ricky Manning.

3
by Francisco (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 2:40am

In defense of Ray Lewis (and as an Indy fan living in Baltimore, I am loath to do so), he is very active in the community here and has done everything possible to be a good role model since "the incident." In fact, he made a point to jettison his old entourage after the shooting and get with the clean livin'. Yes, he was an adult when the trouble happened, but at least he realized that he was making mistakes and changed his off-field habits.

As far as the all-time disparity champion, I'll go Rae Carruth.

4
by jonnyblazin (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 2:49am

re: 1
I think I've had this discussion a million times before, but here goes again: Ray Lewis does a ton of work for and gives a lot of money to Baltimore disadvantaged youth, his only mistake was to hang out with the wrong people.

Regarding his misdemeanor obstruction of justice charge, I think its fair to say that young african-american men have a reason to somewhat mistrustful of the police (in Georgia, no less), and therefore not entirely forthcoming. Lets see, he is black and was initially charged with murder, therefore he must be guilty! Is this the 'Ray Lewis is a bad person' rational? Because it strikes me as not very progressive thinking, to put it politely.

5
by Bobman (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 3:18am

Carruth gets my vote for pure despicability. He did not kill his girlfriend in a jealous rage, but instead planned a hit because she wouldn't abort the fruit of his loins. So he had her on the cell phone and was directing the drive-by as it was happening, to kill his girlfriend and their unborn child.

He gives excrement a bad name and deserves every bad prison cliche he gets. I feel like I need a shower just thinking about him.

6
by Frankly Bored (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 3:43am

Dude could get caught with a gun in one hand, a crackpipe in the other and a dead hooker on his di**, I'd still take him on my team. He just that good. Pacman, you continue to push the limits of "risk versus reward". Don't change a thing you do.

7
by Podpeople (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 7:30am

2:
Let's see this video before we condemn Pacman.

8
by VarlosZ (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 9:24am

#3: "In defense of Ray Lewis (and as an Indy fan living in Baltimore, I am loath to do so), he is very active in the community here and has done everything possible to be a good role model since “the incident.� In fact, he made a point to jettison his old entourage after the shooting and get with the clean livin’. Yes, he was an adult when the trouble happened, but at least he realized that he was making mistakes and changed his off-field habits. "

Good point; I wasn't aware of that. Also, upon review, it seems that his level of actual wrongdoing in 2000 is not as great as I had thought.

My nomination of Ray Lewis in post #1 was very off-the-cuff, and uninformed.

#4 -- See above. Lewis' ethnicity had nothing to do with my post.

9
by mactbone (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 10:05am

Re 2: And in defense of Manning, he was on probation, and the prosecutor and judge only gave him more probation as a result of his no contest plea. I have to assume that they know more than we do. I'd rather the Bears take action, not the league.

10
by dryheat (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 10:18am

Carruth would win this hands down if he was any good on the field, which I don't remember being the case. I can't right now think of a better example, so maybe Carruth's the guy, but Pac Man has an excellent shot of passing him, and quickly.

Tank Johnson is also on the board at reasonable odds. As far as talent goes, I think the answer is probably Lawrence Phillips. Of course, he was in trouble so often he couldn't stay on the field long enough to be good.

11
by Erasmus (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 10:41am

Leonard Little actually killed someone and still plays....

12
by Chris (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 10:47am

Punching a stripper? Biting a bouncer? It's not like this is the guys first incident either. They should cut him. When people are DIE because of what you do when you go out, you don't deserve to play football, but to sit in Jail until your teeth rot. I heard a report that Jones and rapper Jermaine Dupree had a trash bag full of 10,000 dollar bills and started throwing them around which caused a riot.

Players nobody should ever root for. Leonard Little, Randy Mcmichael, Marcus Vick, Ricky Manning Jr., Maurice Jones-Drew.

13
by Blair (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 10:47am

Does Maurice Clarett qualify?

He was never any good in the NFL and only had one good season in college. But I think if he had his head on straight he could have been amazing at both levels.

As for Pacman, it seems obvious that he has no desire the change his ways. How long before a judge gets tired of his behavior - no matter waht his status as a professional athlete is - and decides to hand down real punishment?

Also, what's with guys with nicknames getting in trouble with the law? Are we destined to see LaDainian Tomlinson on the police blotter!?

14
by Led (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 11:54am

I'm with #7, many aspects of this story are fishy. I don't trust the owner of the strip club, Susnar, who is quoted in other articles and is prbably the source for the story about the security tape. He seemed to piece together what happened awful quickly for a guy who wasn't even there, and it just coincidentally turns out that the richest guy in the joint is responsible for everything? I'm going to wait and see.

That said, even if Jones was an absolute boy scout that night (highly unlikely), it's just dumb for a guy in his position to be hanging out in a strip club at 4am.

15
by RCH (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 11:57am

The young Irving Fryar warrants a mention.

16
by NewsToTom (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 12:01pm

After the previous allegation against Pacman (a woman alleged he spit on her in a nightclub) proved to be completely unfounded, I'd like to see the videotape before making any conclusions. Reputation (deserved for past incidents) + NFL money = potential for cha-ching.

17
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 12:05pm

mactbone, all I need to know about Manning is that he pled no contest felony assault. I think the NFL would be better served without players who assault customers.

Frankly Bored, I think owning firearms is Constitutionally protected. I don't care about how people intoxicate themselves. I think prostitution should be a regulated legal industry. The NFL, however, should not tolerate players who attack customers, and everybody not employed within the league is a customer.

Podpeople, if the vido doesn't show Jones assaulting the stripper, I retract my comments. I'd put the odds of that happening at less than 2%.

18
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 12:20pm

Making an allegation that an assault was recorded on videotape has a lot more credibility than simply saying that one was an eyewitness, since it is an allegation that is so easily disproven; it's either there or it isn't, and it doesn't make much sense to make such an easily falsified statement. Who knows? It could be made up out of thin air, but we'll know soon enough.

19
by Crushinator (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 12:30pm

I'm not sure how recent this story is, but on the Jim Rome Radio show, they had an announcement that Pacman was talked to by police as a witness and isn't being charged with anything.

20
by AmbientDonkey (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 12:38pm

How does Tank Johnson even get a mention? He isn't a boyscout but he hasn't actually done anything. I'd take Leonard Little, he's an excellent pass rusher, killed someone while driving drunk, then got busted for DUI after that. I'd like to think that if I killed someone accidentally I would learn a lesson from it.

21
by coldbikemessenger (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 1:27pm

And Lance Rentzal
Where does he rank?
Not as bad as little
But a pretty dispicable guy.

22
by dryheat (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 1:50pm

#20, I wouldn't say that Tank hasn't done anything. The NFL/Bears wouldn't have suspended him if he hadn't done anything. However, my point was laying odds for the future. Anybody who maintains an arsenal larger than some countries is a bad "accident" waiting to happen.

23
by NewsToTom (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 1:56pm

Re #21
Not familiar with Rentzel, but after a quick search I think Rafael Septien's conduct was probably worse.

The Las Vegas Review Journal seems to have the best coverage, here is the Feb. 21 (yesterday) article and here is the Feb. 22 (today) article. Note from the Feb. 21 article that the club owner says his account is based on interviews and club video, and we don't know which parts of his story come from what. I also wonder what role Nelly played, if any, because he seems to disappear from the public narrative once Pacman arrives.

Right now, the only thing Pacman is guilty of here is being young, black, rich, stupid, and in the wrong place at the bad time. I wouldn't want to hang out with him, and he wouldn't want to hang out with me. But he's not a suspect in the shooting, and there's no apparent police investigation of him here.

24
by MJK (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 1:59pm

Chris,

I haven't been following things...what did Maurice Jones-Drew do?

25
by Chris (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 2:33pm

Maurice Jones-Drew and Rickey Manning Jr. were in a California Dennys restaurant in the wee hours of the morning. They started harassing a man with glasses working on a laptop. The guy tried to ignore the football players but they harassed him more and more.

They were calling him names and trying to proke him and eventually beat the guy up. He was just working on his computer when they started calling him a JEW and other names and beat him up.

I wouldn't root for those cowardly and disciminitory thugs and I wonder if it would be a bigger story if say Brian Urlacher did the same thing.

Jones-Drew is lucky he didn't run into any college meatheads after a night of heavy drinking at Dennys. He's have a few uppercuts into his midget frame.

Randy Mcmichael ONLY beat his wife, and Lenoard Little kills people driving and still get's DUI's. The person he killed was the wife of a Rams photographer who still takes photos for the Rams.

23. Of course you think Pacman was the "victum". I mean, it's pretty normal to roll up to a club with a trashbag full of 1 dollar bills and throw them around a bunch of drunk guys and money hungry stippers causing a ruckus. It is wrong to think the bad boy Pacman is totally innocent when he does stuff like that and already has a rap sheet.

I'm with Will Allen on this one.

26
by Chris (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 2:34pm

Oh yeah, and Jones Drew/Manning were picking on the jewish guy because of his Yamaka ( spelling) and then beat him up.

27
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 2:52pm

Hey, if it turns out that Jones didn't assault the stripper, I'll retract my remarks. The report that was linked at the top indicates the assault in on video, but the Las Vegas Review piece linked below is less clear than that. I would disagree with the notion that Jones' race has much to do with this. If Uhrlacher had been on the scene, I think it would be every bit as big a story. I also think that Manning got a break in the Denny's assault due to his race. For some reason, when a Jew gets assaulted by black people while a bunch of anti-semitic filth is uttered, it is less of a story than if a black person gets assaulted while racists spew their anti-black filth.

28
by dryheat (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 2:58pm

I'm going to have to go back and read the MJD/Manning story. As I remember it, they were harrassing an Indian or Middle Eastern guy, and calling him "fag" and the like because he was working on a laptop. I also thought that it was Manning and others who was doing the taunting, while MJD was just there.

29
by dryheat (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 3:05pm

And here's the best write-up I could find quickly...

30
by Francisco (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 3:09pm

25: They called him a "jew"? I just remember them calling him a "nerd," which is totally lame in a completely different way.

31
by AmbientDonkey (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 3:36pm

The charges against Jones-Drew were dropped. I think it's unfair to lump him in with Manning Jr. and the rest of the criminal element.

32
by Randy S. (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 3:39pm

31 - I don't really trust Mushnick or the New York Post. I searched around at Smoking Gun hoping to find the actual police reports Mushnick mentions, but no luck. I did find another article that is more Manning's side of the story, linked below.

33
by Chris (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 3:49pm

Will Allen

I agree with everything you say in this thread and the draft one.

34
by Sophandros (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 3:57pm

Last time I checked, Jones-Drew wasn't charged with anything there. Now, was he wrong for not standing up and telling Manning to stop? Hell yeah. Was he wrong for allowing racist crap to be spewed in his presence? Certainly. But I wouldn't put him in the same category as Leonard Little.

Ricky Manning, however, is worthless to me, as is Pacman, if these allegations prove to be true.

35
by GlennW (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 4:00pm

Pacman Jones is "guilty" of having an extensive criminal record; all the rest is just icing on the cake. If I'm the Titans I don't want to hear that he's within 500 miles of Vegas on NBA All-Star Weekend. That's the real-world practical matter of it...

36
by Jamesly (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 4:08pm

The NFL needs to get tough & squash the league's growing thug problem, or soon they'll end up like the NBA. Once you start tolerating the ridiculous bling-bling, gangsta culture, it'll become entrenched, just like how it's killing pro basketball. It doesn't matter how talented a player is, if he is involved in the thug life culture, he can't be depended on due to the high risk factor involved in that lifestyle. Any sane GM and/or coach would not want to risk having a key player running around with guns and criminals.

37
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 4:13pm

I guess my bottom line, if I were named NFL emperor, would be simply that any player who put his hands on a potential customer in a criminal fashion is permenantly banned. Don't beat up the customers. Period.

38
by GlennW (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 4:16pm

> "The NFL needs to get tough & squash the league’s growing thug problem, or soon they’ll end up like the NBA."

I don't see how the NFL doesn't already have at least as big a problem with actual criminal behavior as does the NBA, if not a bigger one. The biggest difference is that David Stern has gotten tough about it. Now if by "thug problem" you're talking merely about image, and the dollars and cents around the issue, yeah, the NFL skates some there as opposed to the NBA, as its fans are more willing to close their eyes and hold their noses, imo. This Ricky Manning thing is a perfect example.

39
by mb (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 4:30pm

Jamesly: I'm not going to defend the misguided actions of Pacman Jones and idiots in the vein of Stephen Jackson or Manning Jr., but "bling-bling, gangsta culture"? Really? I understand it's a loaded issue, but is it possible not to reduce the problem to a few tired, cliched stereotypes with decidedly racial overtones? Spare us, please.

40
by Disco Stu (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 5:03pm

mb- I understand you're uncomfortable casting the broad net of "bling-bling, gangsta culture", but in this case that's exactly what it is. Pacman was at a strip club with Nelly and Jermaine Dupri. He prides himself on showing off his bling. He was carrying a trash bag with $81,000 in it, using it to "make it rain"- imitating a show-off move from hip-hop videos.

And the greatest part- after he threw hundreds of dollar bills onstage, he told the dancers to pick up the money and give it back. So he wasn't even throwing money around- he was just pretending to. And when one stripper took his money he smashed her face into the stage (allegedly on video).

41
by Adam B. (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 5:26pm

Re MoJo and Manning, Link:
Sabzi, a student with an avid interest in computers, now 26, was called a "faggot," according to a Los Angeles County probation department report unsealed Tuesday. He was also called either a "f------ Jew" or an "ugly f------ Jew," according to the report. He was told, "You look gay," and called "geeky," the report says. . . .

Criminal charges against Jacksonville Jaguars rookie running back Maurice Jones-Drew, who played college football at UCLA had previously had been dismissed, in June, the Los Angeles County district attorney's office citing insufficient evidence. Drew's attorney, Aaron Dyer, said Sabzi had mistakenly identified Drew. Dyer also said, "Maurice didn't make any derogatory comments."

42
by Sophandros (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 5:30pm

"Hip hop culture" and "thug culture" are mere euphemisms.

I'll leave it at that.

43
by Disco Stu (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 5:34pm

Sophandros- no, they're not, at least I don't mean them that way. He was in a hanging w hip hop stars imitating a music video stunt. That's all I mean by hip hop culture.

Pacman doesn't seem bright enough to see that music videos are fake- when you do this stuff in real life there are consequences.

44
by Sophandros (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 5:37pm

Stu,

I'm not referring to your post in particular. Rather, I'm addressing Jamesly, who (now that I look back at it) said, "bling-bling, gangsta culture" and "thug life culture" during his little tirade.

45
by Sophandros (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 5:39pm

Sorry for the double post, but when people blame the actions of a very small percentage of people on a "culture", there is something more than just an "overtone".

46
by Chris (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 5:42pm

It would be great of the NFL just blackballed these guys but then again there are always the Raiders, Bengals and Dolphins that keep fishing these guys up.

47
by GlennW (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 5:51pm

Sophandros, maybe it's semantics, but I think "gangsta culture" does represent a relatively small number of people. I also think it's real, and it doesn't even represent the hip-hop music community at large, where there is legitimate and fair debate around that distinction. In any case, the action of bringing a gun back to a club to settle a relatively minor dispute speaks for itself, no matter what you want to call it. And if Pacman Jones really was associating himself with that person, sorry, he deserves all the criticism coming to him at the very least.

48
by mactbone (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 5:56pm

Re 25/27:
Where the hell do you get your information?

MJD was never charged and it genuinely seemed like an instance of wrong place, wrong time.

I can't find it now, but the police report was actually available online. I think CBS or another news agency had it. This had to have been around 9/26/06 because the Mushnik piece (which I also remember) mentions that the story broke on Tuesday and his article was printed on Oct. 1. In the police report there was only the testimony of the victim and he did suffer from a concussion. Manning Jr. is a complete jerk, but we can't really know what happened. There was also video of the incident, but I haven't heard of anyone watching or what was actually shown. I think from both testimonies it's clear that Manning got in the guy's face and at the very least pushed him. Whether or not Manning was a participant, the people with Manning were the ones that beat the guy to a pulp.

49
by MJK (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 6:18pm

It would be great of the NFL just blackballed these guys but then again there are always the Raiders, Bengals and Dolphins that keep fishing these guys up.

Chris, you have hit on the solution.

Any player who committs a crime immediately has his contract transferred to the Raiders. And loses all rights to free agency. Make him a Raider for his career. That seems punishment enough!

50
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 6:26pm

Mactbone, I never mentioned MJD. Manning is not simply a complete jerk. He is a violent felon, and the NFL would be better if there were not violent felons playing in the league.

51
by Sophandros (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 6:52pm

47: I'm sure that that NFLPA would reject that on the grounds that it violates the Eighth Amendment.

52
by Sid (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 6:57pm

RE: 7

Do you want to ignore his history? Why would you ever give Pacman the benefit of the doubt? Especially when there are witnesses AND a video tape to pack the allegations up.

Adam Jones's checkered past:

10/2003: Jones was sentenced to one year in jail following a bar fight while he was a student at West Virginia University, but the sentence was suspended and he was placed on two years probation. His probation was scheduled to end on Thursday.

4/27/05: Adam "Pacman" Jones was at Club Blaze in Conley, Ga., around 3 a.m. ET on April 27 when officers responded to a fight involving two women. Andrea Akins, a supervisor at the club, told police she was punched in the mouth by a woman who was with Jones. But she later told police the woman "had nothing to do with the altercation," a police report said.

Both women were handcuffed, but were released without any arrests.

7/13/05: The Tennessee Titans' top draft pick, Adam "Pacman" Jones, was arrested Wednesday on charges of assault and felony vandalism stemming from a nightclub altercation. Jones surrendered to Nashville police at Titans headquarters Wednesday morning. Jones was in handcuffs, a white T-shirt and light blue exercise pants when he appeared smiling before a night court commissioner, who set bond at $7,000. The charges included one felony vandalism charge and two misdemeanor counts of assault.

9/5/05: The annual Nashville Sports Council Kickoff Luncheon was held at the Renaissance Hotel. Among the 800 guest was none other than Pacman Jones ... later that evening Jones was counseled for a loud verbal tantrum when he was told to wait in line for his vehicle. He also refused to pay for any valet services used that evening.

10/25/05: In a petition filed by the state, it was alleged that Jones has not made regular and sufficient contact with his probation officer and that he did not report his July arrest in Nashville in a timely fashion.

Judge Robert Stone in Morgantown granted the probation extension of 90 days, though the state requested for it to be extended up to a year.

4/11/06: Nine people were arrested on suspicion of having roles in two major drug rings that trafficked cocaine and marijuana in Sumner and Davidson counties, including a Nashville man with possible ties to Tennessee Titans cornerback Adam "Pacman" Jones, authorities said yesterday.

Officers from Davidson and Sumner counties seized 1,653 pounds of marijuana, 128 pounds of cocaine, more than 20 vehicles and $608,000, police said.

4/18/06: Police say Pacman was one of 12 or more people that gathered at a gas station in Nashville when a fight broke out and gunshots were fired.

A surveillance camera shows that Pacman was identified as being in the crowd and he confirmed that fact to police.

8/23/06: Jones was also accused of simple assault by Toya Garth, who said Jones spit in her face. Garth said Jones "got very close to her and spit in her face, and which point she stated she spit back in his face,'' according to statement taken by police.

53
by Sid (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 6:59pm

RE: 9

So if it's a lenient sentence, that means the player must've not done anything that bad? Leonard Little killed a mother of 4 children while driving drunk. He got 90 NIGHTS in jail and some community service and probation. That's it. In 2004, he went drunk driving again, and he got off totally.

54
by Led (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 7:20pm

"Making an allegation that an assault was recorded on videotape has a lot more credibility than simply saying that one was an eyewitness, since it is an allegation that is so easily disproven; it’s either there or it isn’t, and it doesn’t make much sense to make such an easily falsified statement."

A lie is halfway round the world before the truth puts on its pants. Making up easily disproveable crap that never the less becomes publicly accepted truth is a successful media strategy these days. It doesn't matter if it's true or not because the correction never gets nearly as much attention as the initial story. The strip club owner knows he's getting sued (and knows he'll be suing Jones) as a result of this altercation and has every incentive to taint the jury pool by being the first to get his story out.

Now, just because the owner has an incentive to lie doesn't mean he is lying. I'm not taking a position either way. I just think we should wait and see.

55
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 7:29pm

I heard the strip club owner speak on the radio an hour ago, and he is either giving a very detailed truthful account, or he is an incredibly accomplished liar.

55
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 7:29pm

I heard the strip club owner speak on the radio an hour ago, and he is either giving a very detailed truthful account, or he is an incredibly accomplished liar.

57
by Chris (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 7:33pm

MJK-

Here is some more economics. The Raiders prove why "Cartels" don't work. If everybody agreed to blackball the talented thugs of the NFL, there would be incentive to pick up those guys in FA for cheap. Economics says that Cartels can't work in the long term because there is too much of an incentive to cheat. Now if we are talking about marginal players, that is one thing, but what if there is Randy Moss talent out there with a lot of off field problems? Everybody SAYS they won't want him, but some crappy team ( ahhhem, the Raiders) will look at the risk/reward and determine that there is too large of an icentive to cheat the system.

58
by GlennW (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 8:08pm

> "I heard the strip club owner speak on the radio an hour ago, and he is either giving a very detailed truthful account, or he is an incredibly accomplished liar."

He might be. Latest ESPN report (linked) has court documents containing police statements alleging that the person fighting with the stripper and biting a security guard was a woman in Jones' entourage, not Jones himself. I still think Pacman Jones' connection if any to the actual shooting should be investigated, but I have my doubts about the other part of the story as I'd expect that Jones would already have been arrested for assault had any such conclusive video evidence implicating him existed.

59
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 8:25pm

If the club owner is lying, he may have just opened himself up for a defamation lawsuit from Jones, given the detailed nature of his accusation, even considering that Jones is a public figure. He specifically speaks about Jones striking the stripper once, and then chasing her down to strike her a second time. He says that five people were witnesses to Jones threatening to kill the bouncer. We'll see.

60
by Duff Soviet Union (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 8:29pm

Soph, you are 100% on the money. I am a massive NBA fan, and easily the worst part of being one is listening to and reading the stereotypical, very thinly veiled racial codespeak coming from old white guys who make up much of the media. The reaction to the Knicks/Nuggets "brawl" was nauseating.

61
by NewsToTom (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 8:54pm

Re #52
Let's limit ourselves to the incidents where it's alleged that Pacman himself did something.

10/2003: West Virginia bar fight

7/13/2005: Arrested on felony assault and vandalism charges

9/5/2005: Verbal tantrum

10/25/2005: Petition alleging failure to maintain contact with parole officer

8/23/06: Alleged spitting

And the latest incident.

Note charges from the 8/23/06 alleged spitting were dismissed, and Pacman was never confirmed to be in the club at the time the incident occurred. I would hope that he would show signs of maturity, after ending his first professional season on a down note, and the 05-06 offseason was significantly quieter than the draft/pre-05 time period. Given the most recent incident prior to this one was likely made up, I don't think it's totally out of line to give him some benefit of the doubt.

My supposition, and I'm well aware it's just that, is the club owner used surveillance video as the basis for his claims that the alleged shooter was with Pacman both times he claimed he was in the club that evening, and relied primarily on eyewitness reports for his allegations as to what assault/battery/threats occurred. Given the vagaries of human memory and perception, pardon me if I'm a little skeptical that "all the employees told the same story" as he claimed in one of the LVRJ articles I linked to upthread.

Note that none of this is intended to deny that Pacman is a gifted football player with some potentially very serious off-the-field behavioral problems, nor that he shouldn't wise up. I'm reminded of advice I gave to a college classmate, "Maybe you should find smarter friends." If he kept his own advice from when the Nashville club fight allegations were settled and stuck to jazz bars with old folks, his name wouldn't be in the news like it is today.

62
by Jamesly (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 9:13pm

"Thug culture" is not synonymous with all hip-hop music or fashion, nor is it the exclusive realm of any one ethnic group. I used the phrase to describe the total narcissism, rampant "me first" egomania and dangerously anti-social behavior associated with a lifestyle that embraces "gang" mentality as a virtue. Quite frankly, Pacman could be as arrogant, flashy, loud & flamboyant as he wishes, I don't care. But when the guy 's narcissism is responsible, even in part, for causing physical harm to others, I think it is a problem. letting this kind of thing go unpunished by the league invites more of the same in the future. The NFL banished Ricky Williams for harming no one but himself, to send a message about drug use. I see no reason they cannot do the same when it comes to running around acting like a punk-ass criminal for kicks.

63
by mb (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 9:32pm

disco stu: Actual "gangsta culture" is about gangbanging. Or, in other words, it's about organized crime e.g. selling drugs, fighting for turf, etc. and the cultural trappings that go along with that. "Gangsta culture" in the context of hip-hop is a totally different beast, a tool used to gain or determine credibility and one influence of many on a complex, rich art/culture. Granted, the twain intersect at certain points where actual thugs hang out with, are, or are represented in the lyrics of some MCs but they are separate, albeit at times related entities. And even if the specific Pacman allegations do seem to mimic a generic, derivative mainstream music video it's a huge disservice both to other black athletes and hip-hop artists of all colors to make the lazy, unfounded connection to some kind of platonic "thug life". That's what I was trying to get at.

sophandros, duff soviet union: Exactly. There's a difference between defending the specific idiotic actions of a few black athletes, which is not what I want to do, and defending their peers and by extension blacks at large from projected stereotyping. When Brett Myers viciously beats his wife, for example, even if people are repulsed by his actions there are no silly allegations about "gangsta" culture having contributed to the problem. No one ever accuses MLB of being unduly influenced by hip-hip and 'thugs' (because) it's not dominated by black men. Meanwhile we're left to listen to a healthy population of pundits using euphemisms like "right way" and the various hip-hop/thug ones to describe the supposed demise of the NBA under.

64
by Warren Rambridge (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 9:39pm

While we're talking about P's of S in football...who was that defensive tackle from Nebraska who raped a female student at the school multiple times (which Jeezus-lovin'-coach Tom Osborne swept under the rug as I recall), and then the Patriots were going to draft him but the owner's wife said ixnay on the apistray...oh yeah, Christian Peter.

65
by Sophandros (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 9:44pm

62: They can banish Williams because of a funny little thing called the Collective Bargaining Agreement, which, coincidently, is the same reason that Leonard Little has not been banished from the league.

While it's nice that you don't mean "thug culture" as a veiled racial term, the fact remains that the connotation IS a veiled racial term. That's just what's been going on in our media in recent years. It sucks, but hey, that's our society for you.

Anyway, I wouldn't throw Jones out of the league or even off the team until he's convicted of something here. Shoot, dude hasn't been charged yet, and if there's supposed to be video evidence of him doing all of these things, one would think that the cops would have no problem with charging him.

66
by coyotl666 (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 10:02pm

shouldn't the dude be thrown out just for stupidity? i mean, c'mon, falling for a scam so completely that he used 81 grand of his own money to throw at strippers? what, he really thought he'd get it back? i'd love to hustle him on a massive coke deal or ponzi scheme. with enough preparation his thugs' guns can be outrun. true sign of an overentitled little bully brat: get taken and try to muscle your shit back.

67
by mb (not verified) :: Thu, 02/22/2007 - 11:23pm

jamesly: fair enough. thanks for taking the time to post back and explain your comments. my only qualifier is that, as Sophandros pointed out, unfortunately "thug" and "gangsta" have implied racial overtones but I'm sure you realize that. I agree that in Pacman's specific case, if the allegations turn to be true, those would be apt qualifiers to use so long as they aren't employed to blanket young, black athletes in general; also the league or the Titans should do something. I just wish other offenses, especially domestic abuse, would also have repercussions and that any time a black NFL or NBA player did something dumb it didn't draw sensationalist, dubious media coverage that reinforces racial stereotypes. oh well...

68
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 12:30am

mb, do you realy think that if the name "A.J. Hawk" was being substituted for "Pacman Jones" in this story, the coverage would be much different?

69
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 2:46am

68
It'd be worse because of the Laura Quinn angle.

70
by mb (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 8:23am

will allen: yes. I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. No offense, will allen, but if you choose to be believe otherwise you're deluding yourself.

ps - Unless, of course, reporters just decided to call Pacman "A.J. Hawk" to mess with everyone's heads. that would just be confusing.

71
by Chris (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 10:12am

If it were Jermey Shockey and Eminem, it would be the same story.

Whoever said that the only thing Pacman was guilty of was being young, rich, and black is foolish.

Maybe he was at the wrong place at the wrong time once or twice, but how many people have a rap sheet that long, in such a short amount of time?

Maybe he's just the unluckiest guy on earth, but there is a better chance that he makes bad choices and hangs with the wrong crowd.

72
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 12:24pm

mb, show me a situation in which a white athlete showered strippers with 80 grand in dollar bills, was in the club when a fight broke out, and the club owner states that the white athlete struck a stripper twice, which was followed by a person who the club owner states was an associate of the white athlete shooting two people. Then show me how the coverage differed. If you can't do so, perhaps it is you who is engaging in self-delusion.

73
by NewsToTom (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 1:04pm

Re #71
Apparently, you missed the part where I said "stupid" and "in the wrong place at the wrong time."

One definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting the result to change. Again, I repeat the advice I gave to Pacman in #61: "Maybe [he] should find smarter friends."

74
by mb (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 2:08pm

will allen: I am unaware of any incidents involving a white athlete which mirror the very specific allegations against Pacman. However, that was not your question. You asked me if, hypothetically, the athlete in question was white if I thought the tone of the coverage would be different. I think it would be.

What do I base that upon? A track record of observing media coverage of various athlete scandals that demonstrate, in my opinion, a difference in coverage of white and black athletes. For an example of what I'm talking about click on my name for a link to a ludicrous, sensationalist article about NBA All Star Weekend.

I'll retract delusion; a better word is naivete. In the end it's an opinion, not a statement of fact.

To be frank I'd be happy to just agree to disagree with you on all matters (except the cannibis. i think we see eye to eye on that one) outside actual football and leave it at that on FO. If you want to believe racial bias plays little or no part in media coverage, fine, I respect your opinions even if I don't share them

75
by Zzyzx (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 2:29pm

There are two things going on here. It is both true that there is a culture that glorifies violent behavior and that there are people who use that fact to attack African Americans in general. On one hand, people claim that there's something about the race that inspires violent behavior. On the other, complaints about bad behavior are called racist. Both of those ideas are wrong and that can be shown with one example in a similar culture - soccer holligans.

Violence among male teenagers is not restricted to any one race. Handwringing editorials and terrified citizens also cross the racial divide.

British soccer leagues had to make many changes to try to stop this problem. If the All Star Game spirals out of control again (not having it repeat in Vegas would be a wise move), it will be basketball's turn...

76
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 2:38pm

mb, I'd appreciate it if you would not misrepresent my views. I never said that racial bias plays no role in media coverage. I can think of many occasions when it does. In particular, I think a lot of the boat party silliness with the Vikings last year was played up because the athletes involved were black. I doubt very much that a white qb getting a lap dance would have garnered the attention that Culpepper's lap dance did.

However, when two people get gunned down outside a club, and the club owner states in a very detailed fashion that a prominent athlete was an associate of the shooter, and that the athlete assaulted a stripper within the the club, THAT is news, and big news at that, and it is going to be given very heavy, sensational coverage, no matter the race of the athlete. To say otherwise is naive.

77
by GlennW (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 2:41pm

Why is the column by Whitlock (who is black, obviously) "ludicrous" and "sensationalist"? From what I've been reading, it's pretty accurate. Bill Simmons wrote of many of the same incidents, as an on-location witness and journalist of this weekend-long fiasco. These things actually happened-- the shootings, the Strip being closed down for extended periods, etc.

I'm all for sensitivity around the use of racial codewords, but regardless of race if the criminal element that invaded Vegas and perpetrated the actual violence behaves and even identifies itself as "gangsta" (as opposed to mere perception or imagery), it's a distortion of the truth not to specifically report it as such. Stating that some random, perhaps disassociated violence took place is not specifically accurate, and belies recognition and solution of a real problem. Whitlock didn't hesitate to tell it like it is, without implication by race: "David Stern seriously needs to consider moving the event out of the country for the next couple of years in hopes that young, hip-hop hoodlums would find another event to terrorize."

78
by SteelerBill (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 2:53pm

I love the NFL and there is nothing more that pains me than hearing when these incidents occur.

However....let's review a few items:

Fact: Pacman Jones has been interviewed 8 times in his life regarding criminal activities
Fact: Pacman was carrying around $81,000 in cash
Fact: Pacman Jones threw said cash on stage - the result of which was that three people were shot, one paralyzed. Folks this is the equivalent yelling fire in a crowded theater.
Opinion: He needs to go.

79
by GlennW (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 3:03pm

"Opinion: He needs to go."

I would concur with this if and only if the shooter was a member of Pacman's entourage, his bodyguard or whatever, which has yet to be established. In that case I believe that Jones should bear some real responsibility for the incident, if not for murder then for some significant criminal charge.

80
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 3:40pm

I bet I could run off a list of a hundred young black athletes in the NFL and NBA that nobody would ever associate with the "thug culture". So how come every time a small subsection of the black population is singled out it's automatically assumed to be coming from a bunch of racist white guys?

81
by GlennW (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 3:45pm

> "So how come every time a small subsection of the black population is singled out it’s automatically assumed to be coming from a bunch of racist white guys?"

I don't make that assumption. Nor should this so-called "gangsta" mentality be solely associated with a subsection of the black population. Trust me, with American youth that is far from the truth...

82
by mb (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 3:56pm

GlennW: My name is linked to the other half of Whitlock's bipolar account, a simultaneous but separate article on the All Star Weekend wherein he pontificates about all of the parties he attended and overall "ghettofab" vibe with nary a mention of thugs or parking lot shootouts. I'm not sure why the "young, hip-hop hoodlums" didn't terrorize Whitlock while he was making his round of the nightclubs.

The bottom line is I find it very, very hard to believe that Las Vegas was overrun by a "criminal element" freely engaging in Wild West style shootouts. (btw, Bill Simmons corroborating it isn't very reassuring, as the last time I checked he was a source of irritating, cutesy pop culture references, not credible journalism) The idea is fairly ludicrous in and of itself; Pacman Jones was involved in a seriously dumb incident at a strip club and...what else? Vague reports about rappers brawling with police and supposed gun battles? Do you know of any specific police reports filed besides Pacman's? The problem is not a lack of sensitivity with racial euphimisms, it's combining one or two high profile incidents with a jumbled bag of racial fears to assemble a sensational story about black people running wild.

will allen: I did not say that if a white athlete was involved in a shooting at at strip club in similar circumstances to Pacman's it would not receive widespread media coverage. I said that the TONE (sorry about the caps, but I feel like my point wasn't getting through to you) of the coverage would be different. Clearly you've explained the nuances of your views. As I said before I would be happy to agree to disagree with you; I will also make a serious effort not to misrepresent your views but I would ask that you extend me the same courtesy.

83
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 3:59pm

Re: 81

You're completely correct, and really that was supposed to be the whole point of my previous post. I should have said "...a small subsection is percieved to come from the black population". My bad. I blame the lack of sleep I've been getting lately.

84
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 4:24pm

I said that the TONE...of the coverage would be different.

I absolutely completely disagree with that. I think we'd be hearing the exact same story if instead of Pacman Jones, it involved Jeremy Shockey. And on the other hand, I think we'd be getting a completely different tone if it involved Reggie Bush (for example).

85
by SteelerBill (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 4:39pm

Gentlemen....two other points to ponder:

Please recall the reaction to what allegedy transpired at Duke.

Also, what happens if the stripper in this case is white?

Talk amongst yourselves...

86
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 5:07pm

mb, fair enough, but I'd be more inclined to see your point if you could direct me to an example of a white athlete being involved in an incident with a similar level of violence, in which the media coverage had a markedly different tone.

87
by GlennW (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 5:35pm

Better yet, I'd like to see a story (mainstream media, not an internet blog or anything) on Pacman Jones where the "tone" is unfair. Thus far the coverage has seemed muted with judgment withheld pending more details, at least from ESPN and the like.

88
by Sid (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 6:53pm

RE: 63

MLB doesn't have nearly the problems that the NFL and NBA has. I don't hear about constant DUIs, bar fights, shootings, gun possession, drug crimes, and the like from baseball or the NHL.

89
by Matt Weiner (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 6:53pm

an example of a white athlete being involved in an incident with a similar level of violence, in which the media coverage had a markedly different tone.

I've been having trouble posting this, so apologies if it appears more than once, but google Barrett Robbins and read the top story. And that may be a different kind of story than Jones's (though I'd argue that Robbins was more directly endangering other people's lives), compare the tone of Robbins coverage to that of Steve Foley -- who, unlike Robbins, wasn't grabbing for any officers' guns.

90
by Sid (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 7:03pm

RE: 73

Maybe he should find better friends (which is a good idea for anyone) and maybe he should stop committing crimes himself. That would help.

91
by Sid (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 7:07pm

RE: 82

Do you know of any specific police reports filed besides Pacman’s?

Do you really think Las Vegas wants word to get out about all the incidents that went down over the weekend?
I'll take the word of people who were there over you, thank you very much.

92
by Sid (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 7:10pm

RE: 89

Barrett Robbins is bipolar and suffers from manic depression.

93
by GlennW (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 7:14pm

> "MLB doesn’t have nearly the problems that the NFL and NBA has."

And again, while the NFL has many more players, it's still my perception that NFL players on a percentage basis are involved in more criminal incidents than NBA players, at least in recent years. The NBA may have this negative image around some of its followers (as discussed here), but it doesn't seem as if the players themselves are actually experiencing the extent of criminal problems that NFL players are. But that could just be perception...

Link on my name to today's ESPN story on how the NFLPA constituency might be taking matters into its own hands ("Players suggest 'three strikes' rule at meeting"). I can see where the 95% of players who aren't causing any problems whatsoever must be tiring of the negative association.

94
by GlennW (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 7:19pm

> "Do you really think Las Vegas wants word to get out about all the incidents that went down over the weekend?"

Actually midweek Las Vegas police released information stating that 403 arrests took place over the weekend, with four separate shootings occurring including two in which persons were seriously injured. Vegas always has some crime on any weekend, but the police did acknowledge that this was well beyond normal.

95
by Matt Weiner (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 7:27pm

Barrett Robbins is bipolar and suffers from manic depression.

It's very sad that he didn't get adequate help for this, but I think it's also revealing that the first impulse was to excuse his behavior. As I said, the tone of this coverage has been very different than the tone of coverage of black athletes who do a lot less to endanger people.

96
by Sid (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 7:31pm

There's a tendency to show sympathy for people who do horrible things if it's caused by you know, a disease or disorder.

97
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 7:36pm

Barrett Robbins was no longer a player in the league when he was shot.

98
by GlennW (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 7:41pm

> "It’s very sad that he didn’t get adequate help for this, but I think it’s also revealing that the first impulse was to excuse his behavior."

That's not my recollection of the first impulse around the Barrett Robbins story. The initial reaction was how this homocidal maniac let his team down just a few days before the Super Bowl. Only later were some of the clinical pieces put in place, but even then I wouldn't say that Robbins was "excused", as his condition was exacerbated by voluntary drug and alcohol use. Robbins was also convicted of attempted murder and his career was ended, so it's not like he skated scot-free.

99
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 7:50pm

Oh, gosh, Robbins got killed in the media during the infamous Super Bowl week. Later, when he was shot by police, he was no longer a player in the league, which affects coverage pretty significantly.

100
by Matt Weiner (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 7:52pm

GlennW, I'm not talking about the Super Bowl incident; nobody was hurt or endangered then, as far as I know.

No, Will, he wasn't an athlete when he was shot. Do you think that's why he gets sympathetic coverage?

101
by Matt Weiner (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 7:57pm

Sorry, computer glitch meant that I posted 100 without having seen 99. But: Are there black ex-players who did something like Robbins and got a similar level of sympathetic coverage? Certainly Maurice Clarett didn't, though he didn't have the manic depression either.

102
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 8:00pm

Yeah, I think guys get more sympathetic treatment when they are no longer earning millions of dollars, or no longer doing what made them famous. It's human nature for people to be less sympathetic to people who are making very large sums of money, or who have gained a degree of public adulation.

103
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 8:14pm

Oh, I thought Clarett's and Robbins' coverage was fairly similar at the times of their arrest; a tone of sadness over a life tossed away. Running backs are inherently more famous than linemen, so it makes a difference in the breadth of coverage. Very casual fans really don't know linemen very well

104
by Chris (not verified) :: Fri, 02/23/2007 - 11:08pm

I heard somebody on the Philly radio saying that Andy Reids kid didn't get crufied by the media because he's white....

UMMMM last time I checked the only claim to fame for Andy Reid's kid is that he's Andy Reid's kid. It's not like he's some super star or even role player on a team. We had never even heard of him until he caused trouble.

It seems like there are two sides of the argument here and nobody will change their mind about the black/white media perception.

But what this. Do you think the media INFLATES their coverage of say a black head coach winning a super bowl?

105
by mb (not verified) :: Sat, 02/24/2007 - 2:44am

glennw: I'm unsurprised that there were more arrests and I don't dispute that one of the likely byproducts of an influx of people drinking, partying and throwing money around is a spike in the # of arrests. The same thing happens at Mardi Gras or any number of Spring Break parties. Was there any information in the LVPD reports about how many of the arrests were for public intoxication or drunk/disorderly or things of that nature and how many were for violent crimes and/or felonies? Or if those shootings were, aside from the Pacman incident, specifically linked in some way to people who had come to town for the All Star festivities? If there was an abnormal rise in violent crime and a high % of those incidents are being directly attributed, by the police, to people who'd come to town for the festivities then I'd be more inclined to agree about the detrimental effects of the AS weekend and put some faith into the veracity of accounts like Whitlock's or Simmons'.

Even if that were the case it would still do nothing to prove that those perpetrating the crimes were in any way connected with hip-hop or 'gangsta culture'. You stated that the "criminal element" that invaded Vegas identified itself as gangsta. I'm not even sure how that's possible but do you have any kind of source to back that claim?

What I object to is the blanket labeling of any and all criminal activities that took place with words like gangsta, thug and hip-hop. I'm also highly dubious of the claim that LV was held under the thrall of criminals having public shootouts to the point where they totally dominated the city without it becoming major national news.

106
by Chris (not verified) :: Sat, 02/24/2007 - 3:37pm

And why is everybody so scared to call Pacman Jones a thug? His record speaks for itself. Don't defend him.

107
by GlennW (not verified) :: Sat, 02/24/2007 - 8:18pm

> You stated that the “criminal element� that invaded Vegas identified itself as gangsta. I’m not even sure how that’s possible but do you have any kind of source to back that claim?

I posed that question as a hypothetical, not as fact-- I wasn't there. My point is that the term "gangsta" is not a pejorative; it was adopted by a segment (just one segment) of the hip-hop industry, a segment that seemingly glorifies gun violence. So why then does this have to be a racist codeword, if (and only if) accurately applied? Jason Whitlock doesn't hesitate to use such descriptors for the actual violence connected with the NBA All-Star Game, and he appears to have some historical perspective on the matter. Your point seems to be that no such association exists, and the Pacman-related shooting as well as the other three over the weekend were mere coincidence, as might occur around any other large public gathering.

To be frank, I trust Whitlock's judgment on the matter, as someone who was actually in Vegas and at past events. I also prefer that someone tells it like it is, without regard to someone else's misguided biases and prejudices. Bigots are always going to believe what they wish anyway, so just tell me the truth.

108
by Chris M. (not verified) :: Tue, 02/27/2007 - 1:32pm

If I was involved in just one of the incidents Pacman Jones was in, I would have lost my job immediately. Why is it some of the general public think that criminal athletes and cops should be held to a lower standard than the rest of us.

109
by zinn21 (not verified) :: Thu, 01/29/2009 - 5:10pm

The problem with Pacman and the rest of the dysfunctional African American Hip Hop Welfare to Riches culture is their lack of morals and ethics despite the new found economic/quasi social status generated via their professional athletic success. You can dress a pig in new clothes, jewelry and pimp his ride to the nines but he is still a pig..

Mentoring these morally depraved welfare recipients at a young age might be a start in breaking the total dysfunction of inner city welfare society. Pressure from their educated/civilized peers with a moral work ethic message is additionally required otherwise the cultural mess will continue to fester.