Who indeed will catch those 38 passes? I don't know, draft pick?

$300,000 in guaranteed money for every reception he had last year. I do think that Stallworth is good when healthy but he's never had a 1000 yard season. I think that the 49ers got much better value for money in Lelie.

RE: 0

Brown, Baskett, and another guy will catch the passes. The other guy will be a veteran guy like Keenan McCardell or a draft pick.

Stallworth drops the ball a lot. Remember that, Pats fans.

As a Pats hater, I like this move.

If someone told me to guess how the Pats screw up this great thing they have going, it would have been, and still be that they signed too many guys that look good on paper with some issues, and that good glue they had together quickly crumbles.

Good luck though.

As a Patriot fan, I'm not thrilled to have that much invested, if those numbers are true (and I doubt they represent an accurate picture).

Stallworth will come in and do what every Patriots receiver does. Branch, Patten, Givens, Caldwell, Gaffney....

I guess Belichick feels differently, but it seems that in the Patriots offense, WRs are pretty much fungible, assuming they have the capacity to understand the offense.

Really, for that much financial commitment, I'd have tried to get Moss.

He'll be replaced by the 4 2008 compensatory picks the Eagles get. It's a shame they really didn't have the cap space to sign Garcia, Stallworth and Rod Hood... they tried so hard to keep them.

Yes, I realize I'm being a jerk, but this reinforces my point. They aren't crying about losing any of these players. Yet the NFL will gladly through the Eagles some extra draft picks.

Back on topic, I'm glad Stallworth is off the Eagles... he's an under-rated deep threat... and will open up underneath routes too.

Well, it looks like it's not quite a $12 mil guarantee. According to ESPN (link in my name), it looks to be a 3.6 mil deal for 2007 with options for more money in subsequent years.

I think the 2008 option looks like a bit much, but if this report is accurate, it's an interesting structure for the deal.

Yep, after you know, actually reading the link, this is what I was hoping it would be contract-wise. We'll see how it plays out. We could see Stallworth looking for a new team again next year, hopefully with a Super Bowl ring on his finger.

I like this move, if for no other reason that it finally gives the Pats a deep threat. With Jackson in the Bethel Johnson doghouse or hurt last year, Patriot fans were subjected to Gaffney running deep routes. I love what Gaffney did the in play-offs, but he's still a possession receiver for sure. The Patriots, no doubt, overpaid to get Stallworth, but he's a guy who cans stretch the field. I wouldn't be surprised to see him post a 1000-yard season in the NE offense.

I'm an incurable Pats homer and I'll quickly agree that this is too much money for an average #2 WR with dental floss hamstrings. But there is an AFC arms race dynamic here; they have to improve to keep up w/ the Colts and Chargers this year, and WR and LB are two positions in need of serious improvement. I'd rather have them overpay for a Superbowl than get a bargain on a 1st-round exit. When you have a franchise QB still in his prime, I think you have to go for it.

That said, this certainly seems to be a tacit admission that a) they are expecting squadoosh from Chad Jackson this year, and b) Deion Branch's allegedly unreasonable contract demands (Branch got a $13m bonus seven months ago) were actually dead-on.

After looking at that link, this is clearly a one year deal. It's quite annoying that ESPN reported it as 12m guaranteed iin the first place.

Re: 8, 9, 12

Thanks for the link, you're right, the only way that's not a one year contract is if he stays healthy and has a pro bowl type year, in which case they'd probably re-work it anyway. This deal looks much, much better for the Pats now.

The Patriots may think they are a step ahead, but it's only because the Titans are about to lap them.

It would wrong to look at this as anything more than a 1 yr deal.. reports are 3.6M for 07 and then they have to shell out like a 6 million dollar roster bonus in 08.. not going to happen. Unless this guy blows it up this is a minor signing with no long term consequences.

An odd deal from Stallworth's perspective ... he was the biggest name receiver on the market this year, and even with the injury history, it's surprising he couldn't parlay that into a nice signing bonus. Stallworth doesn't seem like the type of guy who should sign a one-year deal to prove that he's healthy, because I don't think he's ever gotten through one year completely healthy.

I think that Pats came on top on this one. Lemme explain. They are betting nearly $4 million on a possible top-tier WR. If Stallworth does turn into a good pick and makes a lot of catches, i am sure that the team would restructure the deal next year (i am not sure they are gonna pay DS $11 million even if he had a 120 catches, 1800 yds, 20 TD season!)

If DS regresses into the player a lot of folks expect, the Pats took a chance, paid $4 million and can cut Stallworth.

From my perspective, the weakness in WR corps no longer applies. Donte Stallworth, Wes Welker, Gaffney, Caldwell, Brown, Chad Jackson look like a good gang to have as your WRs heading into draft day.

If the Eagles wanted Stallworth at that price they could have paid it. Counter to popular opinion, the Birds are exactly where they wanted to be cap wise. Tom Heckert himself explained that many of the long term extensions signed over the last 12 months contained large roster bonuses due this year. If the Eagles brass decide that they need more cap room, it's a simple matter of converting some of them into guaranteed payments. Personally, I think the Eagles are absolute masters of caponomics. You've seen all these mediocre players grabbing Powerball contracts the last two weeks, now hit this link and scroll down to see how many good young players they have signed long term.

Interesting contract. Often we hear about teams renting players for a year. In this case, the player (and agent) are almost renting the team for a year. They're betting that playing with a top QB and a high profile team will jack up DS price for next year.

There is a real possibility in 2008 that Donte Stallworth will be on his 4th team in 4 years. Is there a precedent for first-round WRs who played well enough to find a job as the #2 WR on most teams in he league, but never justified his draft position and entrenched himself with one team?

Actually, except for his good rookie season and huge sophomore slump, Eddie Kennison's pre-Kansas Chiefs career followed the same arc as Stallworth's.

So this gives me just my second correct prediction in the FO offseason acquisition contest.

And the first correct one is rather shaky at the moment(Jake Plummer to the Bucs).

Yowza!

It's like a battle of the dueling homers between the Pats fans saying what an amazing deal it was and the Eagles fans saying "Pfft, we didn't want him to begin with".

I tend to side with the Pats on this one, Stallworth looked pretty good last year and it was a cheap one year deal. The Eagles uber-cheap style certainly keeps them cap-happy but it also has yet to do anything besides let them beat up on an undertalented NFC before getting exposed against the AFC big boys. I don't really know why they let Stallworth walk, he ended up being cheap and McNabb could use a good target or two.

Uber cheap ... right, they're the closest to the cap limit in years because they're "uber cheap".

They're not big on paying players this year because they already have ... the biggest signings in the past two years have been a ton of extensions to players the Eagles already have.

As a client how do you allow your agent to put in extreme roster bonuses that you will never receive? Is it because you are that confident in your skills that you would be worth 8 or 9 million or 50 million in mcnairs case a few years back? Flat rate contracts would seem to insure the most stability long term, yet you rarely see it happen.

The only reason I like it is because of the money. It would be nice to have a pro bowl receiver, but now that this guy has a financial hammer hanging over his head, maybe he'll keep his nose clean - literally and figuratively. I'm more concerned about Brady's sperminations than who will catch the ball next year. Take care of your precious bodily fluids, Tom! Don't let the supermodel sharks drain your vital essences.

The Patriots have decided to counter their weakness vs. number 2 receivers by signing every number 2 receiver in the league.

Simply diabolical.

Re 26: It really is amazing that Brady has time to win Super Bowls, what with all that breeding the master race/reverse Muad-Dib thing he appears to be doing.

It's not that Eagles' fans didn't want Stallworth, it's that we've pretty much known for months that the Eagles wouldn't re-sign him. It's not a decision I agree with -- no matter how much Pat wants to yell about Baskett's potential -- but they don't listen to me. The bastards.

Guys!!!That is crazy...the Pats now have maybe more than 10 pro-bowlers.
1.Brady
2.Seymour
3.Matt light
4.donte stalworth
5.Troy Brown
6.Maroney(eventualy)
7.Adalius Thomas
8.Teddy Bruschi
9.Mike Vrabel
10.Asante Samuel
11.Rodney Harrison
e.t.c.
I think it's gonna be AN EASY YEAR for them next season. Superbowl XLII we are coming!!!!

30.

1. Maybe
2. Likely
3. Maybe
4. No chance
5. No chance
6. No chance
7. Maybe
8. No chance
9. No chance
10.No chance
11.No chance

#31,

I think 30 meant "once and future pro-bowlers", I think that covers 1,2,3,5, 8, 9, and 11. I think you should reconsider Samuel -he is clearly a "maybe" if he can get 10 ints again, remember it's not just talent that gets you to the probowl. Sadly you are right about Maroney.

If Stallworth produces in 2007, I think it is quite likely that the Pats would pull the trigger on the year 2 options.

Basically, it's a $3.6 million one year deal (only a $1.3 million deal if they cut him before opening day) with a team option on a 5 year extension starting in 2008.

The additional five years would be at $29.5 million with $11.6 million guaranteed. That's not crazy money. If Stallworth produces, there's no reason the additional five years wouldn't be realistic in today's cap environment. Branch got six years $39 million with $13 million guaranteed.

Basically, the Pats signed a one year, rent-to-buy plan. They get a full NFL season to evaluate Stallworth followed by a team option for a long term deal at decent WR money.

Paying Stallworth $11 million in 2008 seems a bit much, no matter how well he plays. I think they will re-visit the deal next February regardless. Seems like a nice deal.

I am somewhat impressed with Stallworth. He could have taken more truly guaranteed money on a longer deal elsewhere, but he's betting on himself.

29: Is there any reason why they didn't resign him if this was his asking price? It's hardly like they're overflowing with WR weapons and the franchise QB has a few years left before he starts to decline... seems like a good time to try to make it happen like the Pats are.

Paying Stallworth $11 million in 2008 seems a bit much, no matter how well he plays. I think they will re-visit the deal next February regardless.

It's not "paying Stallworth $11 million". It's the guaranteed bonus money for a 5 year $29.5 deal starting in 2008. His actual cap number for 2008 would be $6.3 million.

We can argue that paying any player signing and guaranteed option bonuses is a bit much. But, that's the way long-term NFL contracts are structured.

If the Pats want to keep him after 2007, they might convert some 2008 roster bonus money to option bonus money and backload the cap hit a little more, but otherwise the 5 year extension doesn't look unreasonable in today's market -- if he's producing as a legitimate stretch the field top #2 or average #1 WR. The key is that the Pats will know, based on a year of having the guy in their system, whether he is a keeper or not -- before they have to excercise the option on the 5 year extension.

32: Has Matt Light made the Pro-bowl?

17: I find it hard to share you enthusiasm. Jabbar Gaffney couldn't make the Eagles. Reche Caldwell wasn't good enough to stick with the Chargers. Both seemed to play well with the Pats, but then why go get Stallworth and Welker ? The signing of those two has to mean that the Pats brass wasn't that happy with Caldwell and Gaffney. As for Stallworth, he's only as good as his hamstring. The Pats have now spent good money on a guy with a questionable hammy and a wideout who average 10 yards per catch in his only "big" season. I think they are going to end up needing Gaffney and Caldwell, and that seems to be situation they don't want to be in.

It will be interesting to see how this works out. Obviously Stallworth has injury history that is of concern but there are plenty of other questions about this deal.
Nothing I know about Stallworth suggests that he fits the Patriot mold of a professional football player. His work ethic, his football intelligence, and his discipline all seem to somewhat short of the mark.

Both seemed to play well with the Pats, but then why go get Stallworth and Welker ?

Simple.

They went out and got Welker because they need to replace 37 year old Troy Brown's role on the team -- quick release, blitz-busting possession receiver and sure-handed return man.

The got Stallworth because the last three efforts to put a speed burner on the field to stretch the defense (Simmons, Bethel Johnson, and Chad Jackson) have produced a grand total of nothing at the NFL level. In Stallworth, they get a low-risk rent-to-buy look at a 4.3 forty guy with proven consistent NFL production -- 47 catches, 6 TDs average over 5 NFL seasons. They don't need him to lead the league in receptions. They need him to make the defenses play honest to open up the Pats bread and butter offensive stuff.

30, as a Vikings fan, I remember having like 9 pro bowlers in one year, 1988 I think. Didn't win the division, and lost in the first round of the playoffs...

(for the record - Wade Wilson, Steve Jordan, Anthony Carter, Gary Zimmerman, Keith Millard, Chris Doleman, Scott Studwell, Joey Browner and Carl Lee all went that year).

Re: #35

That's the $64,000 question. The general sense around the city and in the media is that there was little to no chance the Eagles would bring him back, even though he made a point of saying he wanted to stay. Nobody has said the Eagles offered him, but if he wanted more than the Patriots offered the Eagles weren't going to give it to him, even if the difference was only three bus tokens and a ham sandwich. They decide what they're going to pay and they'd rather let a player walk than budge off that number even if the guy is a Pro Bowler like Trotter or Hugh Douglas. The only reason Runyan -- and Trotter, too, for that matter -- is still in Philly is because he took less money to stay.

So, the short answer to your question is,"They didn't want him."

Hey, if Stalworth has a spotty injury past, the best place for him is NE, 'cause they never have injury problems there.

He's better than anyone the Pats have already. That's not saying much, but it does make them better than the status quo and draftees are really more about year two even IF they're good.

As for those who noted Simmons, Johnson, and Jackson, don't forget JJ Stokes, David Terell and Tim Dwight amongst the list of failed attempt to get a deep threat speed WR.

Also don't forget their attempt to get Mason a few years back. And folks say they don't value the position.

re 7

"Yes, I realize I’m being a jerk, but this reinforces my point. They aren’t crying about losing any of these players. Yet the NFL will gladly through the Eagles some extra draft picks."

The point is the decision to let guys go and not be unhappy is partly because of these compensatory picks.

Nice deal for the Pats but I don't really see why Stallworth signed it. In actuality, it's anything but certain he's not going to see any of that second year cash (at least not in the form of this contract). A little less escalation from the first to the second year and a little more cash after that probably would have made that a better deal for him.

#43: The chicken or the egg?

Stallworth signed it because, as someone already noted, he's betting on himself. He was probably commanding something like 5-8 M gauranteed if he signed a typical long term deal this year, because of the question marks around him (injury and substance abuse). But if he has a big year, with Brady at the helm, then he's looking at either the total of 14 M gauranteed from the Pats, or the 3.6 M from the Pats this year plus probably 10-15 M gauranteed next year if the Pats release him. Either way he comes out ahead, if he has a big year.

Basically, the uncertainty of how he'll perform (mostly injury wise, but also because of the substance abuse thing) is hurting his value this year. He's gambling that he'll perform well enough to justify it. The Patriots are willing to play ball.

As for why the Pats went after him and Welker, the rumblings are that Troy Brown is going to retire. Even if he doesn't, he's 37 and slow at this point, and not likely to be an impact player. With Jackson's hamstring likely keeping him out of camp, he's not going to develop into anything reliable this year.

That leaves the Pats with just two competent WR's--Gafney and Caldwell. While I wouldn't go so far to denegrate them the way some people do, neither one is going to become an elite WR any time soon, and neither one is a deep threat. Newly drafted WR's rarely contribute their first year, and it's essentially luck when one does.

That means that the Pats would have gone into the season with two decent WR's (#2's at best, probably closer to a #2 and a #3), maybe an aged Troy Brown, and best case a highly drafted rookie question mark. You can't run a good offense with that kind of depth. Forget 4- and 5 wide sets. And if you get an injury, forget 3-wide sets. Multiple WR sets only work because the defense has to cover them all and doesn't have the players left to mount pass pressure. If you don't respect one of the WR's as a recieving threat, then you just make sure you cover the hot read well and then blitz (as the Patriots found out to their sorrow facing 3rd and 4 at midefield leading by 3 with 2 min to go in the AFC CG).

But now, they've got Whelker in the slot, Stallworth (if he works out), Gaffney, and Caldwell rotating on the corners, or all playing in 4 WR sets, the Pats are pretty set. If they draft another rookie WR then can develop him, or they can address other needs in the draft (like safety).

Basically, the uncertainty of how he’ll perform (mostly injury wise, but also because of the substance abuse thing) is hurting his value this year.

It's all expectations, isn't it?

If Stallworth were a fourth round pick putting up an average of 47 catches/6 TDs per year over his first five years, he'd be viewed as a pretty productive player.

But, because he was a high first round pick (13th overall), he's viewed as an underachiever because he hasn't posted Marvin Harrison numbers.

Stallworth has played in one more regular season game than Deon Branch in their first five seasons, has six fewer catches per seaon, but more yardage and 10 more TDs.

They are different types of receiver (possession versus deep threat), but the two players have been roughly the same from a production standpoint.

i don't know about you guys, but i beleive that the patriots are going to superbowl next year. i mean think about it, they almost made this year with a team that was having problems in key possesions. this year they are trying to correct all the mistakes that they made last year..Tom Brady Superbowl MVP again!!!

I dunno. Isn't it a little early to be "annointing they ass"?

NFL seasons are marathons. We won't know which teams have put the pieces together and improved to championship level over the course of the season until next January.

It could just mean the Patriots are tired of all the injuries in the secondary and are making Troy Brown the full-time nickelback.

My Dad is right. The chances of US winning the SuperBowl just increased to a virtual certainty. There is no chance of any other outcome. Clearly, Bill Belichick is a GENIUS and Payme Manning is a CHOKER!

Hey Aaron, Spring ahead?

First of all, Nick Jr, nice use of Belichick and Manning to avoid turning this into an Manning/Brady discussion. But, 'Payme' Manning didn't choke, and he restructred his contract to give the team more cap space this year. So before you verbally attack people, make sure it makes sense, and is actually true. Thanks.

Wes Welker is going to catch more passes then Stallworth. Am I the only person really high on Welker. He played in a spread it out offense in Texas Tech, he led the Dolphins in receptions, and seems to be a hard worker. And can kick the game winning field goal in the Super Bowl while he is at it....

Does anyone else wish football season were starting? Four more months! Aargh!

re: 57

I agree with that one. That's an easy one. Welker should definitely catch more balls than Stallworth.

56: I think Nick Jr. is joking.

He'd better be, because I don't believe fans who are that thick leave messages on boards at FO.

hwc:

I see what you're saying about expectations, but there is a bit of truth to the idea you are debunking, and the reason is this: high draft picks are usually given every opportunity to play and excel, because the drafting team has put so much into them. Lower-round draft picks have to fight for time/plays. Because of that reality (that teams want the guys they have invested in to do well) some high-round draftees have inflated numbers, and low-round guys have the potential to do much better if given the chance.

I am not saying this is the case with Stalworth, and after 5 years, I'd hope teams play a guy on his talents, not his draft position. But, I do think two guys, one drafted say #15 overall and one drafted say #150 overall, with identical stats after three years could be VERY DIFFERENT in ability, with the nod going to the guy who has had to prove himself.

It's the difference between DPAR and DVOA. DPAR can make you look good if you get enough chances.

re: 60

Have you read the work of Lord J Rocka?

I think it's nuts to question this move from the Pats' end. Getting a reciever of Stallworth's potential is certainly worth $4 million for 2007. Set aside that he hasn't met lofty expectations and look at his actual performance... if he turns in a performance like he did last year, he's helping the team, and I can see expecting better depending on his health coming into the season.

I actually like this move from Stallworth's point-of-view, as well. He's put himself in a situation where he's got a QB and generally effective offensive unit and coaching. The defense is monstered out with the AT signing. If the Pats go 13-3 and win the Super Bowl and Stallworth catches 75 for 1300 with 9 TDs and stays healthy the whole season, he's going to make a grip of coin next year one way or another.

If he battles injuries and performs as can be reasonably expected, people will see him as an enigmatic but injury-prone wideout--just like he was seen this year--and he can decide whether he wants to try again or take a longer-term deal.

high draft picks are usually given every opportunity to play and excel, because the drafting team has put so much into them.

I think that probably contributes to so many 1st round receiver "busts".

These burners are used to physically dominating the college defenses. Run fast, go deep, jump high. That's the drill for a gifted college receiver.

Then, they get to the pros...where defensive players can run fast and jump high, too. It's almost impossible to be a good NFL WR without understanding the playbook and running precise routes, based on reading the defense.

Some of the lower round picks probably figured that out in college. The first round guys may be coming to grips with it for the first time as they can no longer physically dominate the defenses.

Aaron Brooks was my QB too and somehow I managed to put up good numbers.

What is Donte's excuse?

54: I am pretty sure that a certain QB (who shall go unnamed) will have a higher cap hit than "Payme" this year.

51:

I think that free agency is for fans just like you.

Sad to see him go, I would have liked to have seen him stick around and play for Philadelphia a bit longer. That said, when Drew Rosenhaus is your agent, your priorities are obvious. I'd bet a shiny nickel that the Eagles had a long-term contract giving him 4-7 million a year over the next 4 years and he refused so he could gamble like this.

Nothing I know about Stallworth suggests that he fits the Patriot mold of a professional football player. His work ethic, his football intelligence, and his discipline all seem to somewhat short of the mark.

Anybody else notice that Pats fans talk about their players in white code? Discipline, intelligence, work ethic (hustle)... just seems a little odd.

BTW, Stallworth, per PFT (grain of salt, etc.) is in the substance abuse program and would face a suspension next time he slips up. That would be one reason that teams weren't breaking down the door to sign him, in addition to his past injury issues.

yes because work ethic, football intelligence, and discipline are such terrible things to have when you are playing a dude millions of dollars a year to play football. That sounds like common sense. Now they just need more guys with deceptive speed and that are scrappy.

68:

Winners, if they win consistently, come to believe that they are morally superior. It is a pattern repeated across pro sports, in corporations, and in politics. It's probably coded in the fundamentally human portions of DNA.

64- Your right about receivers. Speed is so overrated. You know, people do call Receiver a "skilled position".

I think Fans are mind boggled how a guy like Larry Fitzgerald can run a 4.6 40 and tear up the NFL from such a young age ( there are linebackers and D-Lineman faster than him), but then a guy like Bethel Johnson can have a flat out bust career. Fitzgerald is "polished" and plays the positon right. Jerry Rice ran a 4.6 also.

Why does everybody call a receiver a "#1" a #2" etc. It annoys me to no end. Terrel Owens is a #1, but Keyshaun Johnson is a #2, blah blah blah. It comes from playing too much Madden.

Re: 68 Yeah, like that gritty, deceptively fast fan favorite Troy Brown.

#71

It is because No1s generally play flanker and No2s play split end.

Split ends get more space and it is harder to place extra coverage over them without telegraphing how you are playing defense. Also the quick out or bubble screen is a difficult throw for most QBs to make so SEs tend to run deeper patterns or slants. A lot of it is to do with QB mechanics which is rarely mentioned in the media, but the upshot of it is that you need more skills to play flanker, hence No1.

73- It's not like teams keep their "X" on one side and their "Y" on the other side all the time.

The Colts would almost always have Wayne to the left, Harrison to the right, but then again the Colts aren't very conventional in that regard.

When most people talk about "#1's and #2's" they are talking about production and not X's and Y's or Split Ends and Flankers.

Talking about receivers and thier rags to riches, what about former Florida State Seminole roomates Laverneous Coles and Peter Warrick.

Warrick was the flashy Heisman candidate, but Leverneous said that he would wake up at 6 or 7 in the morning to go run sprints while Peter would just be coming home.

Warrick was a bust in the NFL while Coles has had a pretty good career.

"Anybody else notice that Pats fans talk about their players in white code? Discipline, intelligence, work ethic (hustle)… just seems a little odd."

MacTbone, you're officially a racist.

What is with this site lately? FWIW, if I was going to pick one player who exemplified the Patriot Way, its Troy Brown, and hes black.

If you think "Discipline, intelligence, work ethic" are things only white people have, mactbone, you have serious problems.

75:
oh please, not again! This is a perfectly nice thread about a routine, small free agent signing, and you have to throw out the r-word. No good will come of that!
Anyways, it's true Patriots fans always talk about Pats players like that, and I surely can't be the only one irritated. As if every other team doesn't look for disciplined players with good football smarts; no, surely the Cardinals and Raiders are looking for disinterested slobs who don't remember what a 'down' is.

my favorite Donte Stallworth story:

Had a good year for Tennessee, as did his teammate Kelley Washington, both where hedging on whether to go into the draft and Washington said they would both do it-sort of I will do it, if you will do it. Stallworth declares (and I do believe hires an agent..). Washington stays at Tennessee and tries to become the go-to guy now that Stallworth will not be there stealing his thunder.

Of course Stallworth was a 1st round pick, Washington struggled with back problems his last year at Tennessee, dropping his stock considerably (Washington was nicknamed "The Future" while at Tennessee...)

76. Rob, look at post 68. Thats where the racist accusations started.

78:
You're right, and I apologize. Not everything that is said about players involves race.

75-76. But how will the Pats be remembered?

We remember the Rams as being a SPEED team ( The Greatest show on turf), the Ravens and Bucs were dominant defense, the thing that will be remembered most about the Pats is their team "smarts".

They were the team that took every game one game at a time, and vastly changed their strategies. From a base dime defense in the Super Bowl, to taking away each teams "go to" guy. Troy Brown was a star player who would play Offense, Defense and special teams as his team needed him.

One of my favorite plays in all of sports was at the start of the Pats Colts playoff game 2-3 years ago when on 3rd and long Manning dumps the ball off to Dominic Rhodes to pick up some yards on a screen and Brusci rocks him helmet to helmet and then rips the freaking ball out of Rhodes hands. He just mugged him. Then Brusci holds the ball up and runs around and the crowd was going wild. That was the playmaker play that changed that game IMO.

Re 73:

I don't know as much as I'd like about X's and O's, but I was under the impression that the flanker lined up off the line, and the split end on the line. In that case, wouldn't the flanker generally have more space than the SE?

Re: 68

Wow, I never knew Troy Brown, Deon Branch and David Givens were all white.

RE: 16

Stallworth doesn’t seem like the type of guy who should sign a one-year deal to prove that he’s healthy, because I don’t think he’s ever gotten through one year completely healthy.

He's played in 44 out of 48 possible games the last three seasons. That doesn't include the playoffs with the Eagles, which would make it 46 out of 50.

RE: 25

I never understood the point of huge roster bonuses that the team will never agree to pay. What it does it force the team to either cut the guy or restructure the deal. But why do that? Why not have a normal contract?

81-

The "standard" way to line up would be...

- Split end on the far left ON the line, this player is refered to as an "X" in plays.
- Tight end is on the RIGHT side of the line and is refered to as a "Y" in plays. Motion might be called a "Yard", or "Yam" or another "Y" word when calling plays. Different teams have different language.
- The Flanker lines up on the RIGHT side and is OFF the line. This player is called the "Z".

Now some teams are different. Seattle was called a "left handed team", because the Tight end would often line up on the Left side of the line instead of the right.

The reason most teams are "right handed" is because most quarterbacks are right handed.

Now the X,Y,Z common order is just a base. You will see times where there are "twins" with both receivers to the same side, and any other formation you can imagine.

I'm just sick of the media calling a guy a #1, or #2 all the time, and saying that so and so isn't a "deep threat". Larry Fitzgerand and Boldin both have 4.6 speed but that doesn't mean they are "possession" receivers or " not deep threats" or have "no potential". Those guys use their bodies to effectivly "box" out a corner and they have good hands, run good routes and generally have good skills. Boldin also had experience playing QB and can read a defense well. Fitzgerald has been around the game a long time and can also read defenses well. The Receiver position is very misunderstood. You don't need a 4.3 40 to run inbetween a zone and sit there.

> "I never understood the point of huge roster bonuses that the team will never agree to pay."

I don't think that's the case here. If Stallworth has a great season, that $9m roster bonus spread over the final 4-5 years of the deal will just be the price of doing business, if not with Stallworth then for a reasonable WR replacement.

Look at the Colts for example. Marvin Harrison isn't as suited to playing ON the line as Reggie Wayne. Harrison is undersized and would be better suited to play OFF the line, this would make it harder to jam the shifty Harrison.

Wayne is a stronger receiver and plays on the left almost exclusivly. He would be more likely to get off press coverage than Marvin.

The Colts keep Reggie on the left, and Marvin on the right almost exclusivly.

The good thing about a "Z" is that you can run him in motion. A Split end would regire somebody else to step up ON the line, so that he could step off the line and go in motion.

A Z going in motion can be dangerous by sending him on a crossing route over the middle making a PICK with the tight end. By already having the guy in motion towards the side, he can run faster. Some of those west coast teams really like running trips ( like Tampa) and bunch formations that sit in the different zones, SOMEBODY will be open. You also have the opportunity of having 1 on 1 coverage on the other side of the field with the X. Damn, I love me some football.

Huh.

Today's Globe says the Pats almost acquired Stallworth in a trade last year, but it fell apart at the last minute because the Saints wanted linebackers in return.

re: the Patriots and race

If Mactbone intended to imply that the only players with discipline, intelligence and/or work ethic are white then yes, his comments are ignorant and racist. however, I think he may have meant the Patriots use the stereotypical terms used by the mainstream sports media to describe white players, e.g. "deceptive speed", "gritty", "cerebral",etc. when talking about all their players regardless of race.

Re 80:
Your example is not about smarts though - it's about strength. In fact, it seemed your point was more that the Pats were/are a versatile team. Whether that makes them smarter or not... I wouldn't know, but I would guess not.

Re "Some players are black on the Pats!":
Be obtuse if you want, but you know what my point was.

To clarify my point - Pats fans talk about their team as being smarter, more disciplined and more willing to hustle. As Charles the Philly Homer remarked - that makes sense that fans of a team that has won would describe themselves as better. However, my point is that Pats fans don't talk about Brady's rocket arm - it's his intelligence and accuracy; they talk about the various defensive players using their smarts (and BB's schemes and teaching) to be in the right position to make plays - not Seymour, et al's strength and speed to collapse the pocket. Furthermore, these same words (smart, disciplined) are frequently used as code words to reference a white player (at least they're used by media pundits who aren't aware).

I find this interesting and worthy of discussion - I didn't call anyone a racist, I just made a connection and others connected the dots to equal racist (even though we don't talk about pundits being racist when they use these same words). I wonder if this is because Boston fans identify (or want to identify) with those traits more. It might feed into the "underdog" status that Boston fans revel in - Pats players aren't that good and it's only through superior (heart, intelligence, etc.) that any man can possess that makes them able to beat the more athletic, talented opponents.

If nothing else, I hope the discussion would cause some people to examine their words more carefully.

91- Interesting.

Not that it's a competition or anything, but Kerwin Nagy #62 wins the thread.

91:

Huh.

So just to kind of summarize the framwork of your argument (so you can correct me more easily if I'm wrong in my assumptions):

1.) There are adjectives in sports that traditionally only apply to white athletes.

2.) In general, such adjectives refer more to the intelligence, leadership ability, and team-first attitude of a team than the speed or strength of the team/its players.

3.) Sustained success is usually attributed to these adjectives rather than traditionally "black" adjectives that refer to the speed, strength, etc. of a player.

That's a compelling argument for subtle racism in sports reporting, but I'm going to suggest that it is more of a function of reality than the function of some hidden racial understanding of sports skills. I would argue that the success of the Patriots is definitely more the result of excellent gameplanning and extreme skill in executing a specific game plan than the result of speed or strength. There is a talent baseline required to be successful in the NFL, especially consistently, but I would argue that the success of the Patriots is more the result of utilizing talent to its maximum potential - and requiring very advanced schematics be executed perfectly, consistently - than by having the most talent on the field at all times. That would be accurately reflected in using terminology like "smart," "cerebral," etc. I don't think it's necessarily a case in which "white" adjectives are being pasted onto a succesful team.

And to expound further, I believe that these sorts of adjectives are also the basis for the sustained success of the Eagles - a team with, I believe, 21 black starters (someone correct me if I'm wrong, all I could think of was Runyan).

Ah, Considine, and occassionally McCoy - point still stands though.

For anyone who thought the Patriots could consider paying Stallworth a total of $9.6 million in bonuses next year without restructuring, even Rosenhaus doesn't consider it possible.

Here were some quotes from the South Florida Sun-Sentinel today.

"It really was a matter of Donte' knowing that he's going to be in a one-year situation, and he needs to succeed. And, frankly, he wants to win...

""It was best for him to sign with New England because of Tom Brady. Donte' really thought a lot of [Dolphins coach] Cam Cameron. But Donte' [signed] a one-year contract, so it's imperative for him that he put himself in the best environment to succeed. Right now the Patriots are more solid offensively than Miami because of the uncertainty at quarterback. The Dolphins might sign Trent Green. Is [Daunte] Culpepper going to be healthy? Is Cleo Lemon ready? Well, Tom Brady is the best."

Re 94:
I can agree with that, but I think it's interesting that Boston - with the history it has - is the city which produced a winner which has these adjectives applied to the team.

Think about how other teams are framed. Baltimore had a dominating defense led by athletic, fast, strong players. Tampa had a dominating defense and mastermind coaching the offense. What I'm trying to get at is where these frameworks come from - the media obviously, but what makes these narratives compelling for the media. Is it the identity of the city's themselves, is it the coach, or is it the star players?

To me, it just struck me that every signing by the Pats included at least one fan explaining that the player would work great in NE because they were smart, disciplined, hard worker, etc. It just seems odd that other fans don't apply those words to their signings as frequently.

> "For anyone who thought the Patriots could consider paying Stallworth a total of $9.6 million in bonuses next year without restructuring, even Rosenhaus doesn’t consider it possible."

Those quotes almost sound like Rosenhaus only wants this deal to result in a one-year stint for Stallworth, which he can then build from on his next contract. But specifically, what is it about the $9.6m in roster bonuses that makes the contract so prohibitive after this season (as opposed to maybe a $15m bonus offer as a UFA next offseason)? I keep seeing repeated references to this contract being similar to Javon Walker's make-good deal, and Denver picked up Walker's roster option, obviously.

Regardless, a contract which the Patriots can opt out of at low cost after only one season but which might (only might) still allow them to lock Stallworth up after a breakout season is only a good thing for the Patriots.

Got racist?

> "To me, it just struck me that every signing by the Pats included at least one fan explaining that the player would work great in NE because they were smart, disciplined, hard worker, etc. It just seems odd that other fans don’t apply those words to their signings as frequently."

The same adjectives have been applied to the league's supposed no-nonsense, no-name, lunchpail dynasties of the past-- in my lifetime the 1960s Packers, 1970s Dolphins, 1970s Steelers, and 1980s 49ers (but not the 1970/80s Raiders or 1990s Cowboys for example, given their player/coach/owner celebrity status and various off-field problems). But when the players being so described are predominantly black, it seems a stretch at face value that this is "white code". The distinction is ostensibly more about how the players go about their business, even if that perception isn't always valid and is almost always exaggerated by the success.

98:

Just about every team in the NFL has athletic, fast, strong players. This is a professional sporting league. And not to retread my argument, but many Patriots signings are successful because they are low-cost acquisitions of players who may not be as strong, as fast, or athletic as more expensive counterparts - they simply perform one function very well and are coached/schemed into a position where they will succeed. I think the rest is explained by homerism rather than racism.

The Globe's Mike Reiss reports the Pats have signed WR Kelley Washington.

Re 95

Todd Herremans says hi.

You know what else pisses me off about WR talk is all the talk about "double teams".

Teams don't even usually play man, nevermind "double" a guy. A lot of times the reason why teams play man is because they are sending in a 5th, 6th, 7th rusher and are betting that they will ge to the QB before he can hit a receiver.

The media acts like certain WR's are assigned 2 defenders on every single play or something. Or they say things like " stud receiver" draws 2/3 defenders which allows " 2nd best wr" to get open.

The NFL is a freaking zone coverage league.

The funniest thing I saw though was Freddy Mitchell a few years back saying that the only reason why TO was doing so well was because "I was drawing all of these double teams which allowed TO to be in single coverage.".

They signed Kelley Washington, too? This is getting out of hand. The Pats are signing receivers faster than Brady is making babies.

106:

Yeah, I can only imagine the agony you'd see in Reche Caldwell's freakish owl-eyes right about now.

Don't drop wide-open passes at critical times in Championship games!

I'd say more like giant squid eyes. His contacts could double as kidddie pools.

You should insert some more Caldwell jokes. What did his coach say after the dropsies; " Look at the ball and catch it", or " Look the ball all the way in when you catch it" or "keep your eye on the ball".

WRs on the Patriots now:

Reche Caldwell
Jabar Gaffney
Chad Jackson
Donte Stallworth
Wes Welker
Kelly Washington

Plus the practice squad all-stars, Childress and Kight. That's a lot of mediocre wide receivers. I'm also guessing this means that the Pats front office has completely given up on drafting and developing WRs.

I have the usual Pats homer faith in Pioli and Belichick, but even I think this is getting ridiculous. I mean, come on now, 5 free agent WRs in the past 12 months? Somebody needs to tell Belichick that the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.

RE: 97

Exactly. If Stallworth really does do that well, I think it'll be restructured. If I were Rosenhaus, I never would have agreed to this. I would have either gotten a long-term deal with what I'd consider to be fair value in terms of guarantees and structure, or simply signed a one year deal with the Eagles or something. It was offered.

ABW-

I love FA wide receivers and I believe the Pats do too. Think about all the money that is spent on this glorious "skiled position". Teams use high draft picks and top dollar to bring in the guy that is supposed to be the "difference maker". But as a poster pointed out, there is a lot to the position. The receiver is a "thinking" position a lot more than you think. These guys don't just go to the huddle and get a Curl, a Streak, a slant, or post, this is the pros. These guys go up to the line with A COUPLE OF OPTIONS DEPENDING ON THE COVERAGE.

Now these wideouts aren't born knowing which route to choose, and IF they choose the wrong route, it could end up as a turnover. So these guys have to study, learn, and be familiar with the offense.

So take these FA wide receivers for instance. They might not have performed well for their last team, but they at least were in a pro offense for 2-4 years and started to pick up the reads. These once high draft picks are basically kicked to the curb and can be picked up for cheap/moderate dollars and can provide returns instantly. A rookie WR has to go through the training and learn the reads, while the medicore FA receiver already had that training, and it was paid for by some other team. Once again, it is the principle of buying a new car as far as saving money and reducing risk as far as money goes.

Now these FA receivers might be prone to bust, but then again the rookie WRs are too. I'd rather spend the dough on the guys that have already been "learning" the reads, and use my draft picks on a stud defensive players.

"To me, it just struck me that every signing by the Pats included at least one fan explaining that the player would work great in NE because they were smart, disciplined, hard worker, etc. It just seems odd that other fans don’t apply those words to their signings as frequently."

And what does that have to do with race, Mactbone?

If you're going to call us all racists, which you did, you need something more than that.

"Anybody else notice that Pats fans talk about their players in white code? Discipline, intelligence, work ethic (hustle)… just seems a little odd."

"I didnt call anyone racist"

Yeah, mactbone, yeah you did.

Chris, thanks for your informative posts.

Regarding the Pats and WR's:
In the past 5 years, the Pats have drafted 5 WR's -- 3 in the 2nd round, 1 in the 6th, and 1 in the 7th. Of those, two have turned out well (Branch and Givens), two have been busts (Bethel Johnson in the 2nd, P.K. Sam in the 6th), and one is too early to tell. I think they try to develop in-house WR's--they just haven't been overwhelmingly successful. Maybe they could have tried drafting more of them? Still, hard to fault them for instead drafting players that liargely have worked out, instead of going all Matt Millen on the franchise.

99
"Regardless, a contract which the Patriots can opt out of at low cost after only one season but which might (only might) still allow them to lock Stallworth up after a breakout season is only a good thing for the Patriots."

Not necessarily Glenn. It means that if he does have a great year, he either gets that big bonus, or he gets cut, in which case hes a free agent after a big year.

I think its a better deal for the Pats than Stallworth, but I think its still a much better deal than he would have gotten had he insisted on a contract with no team opt out/in option.

Another thing to consider is that there are, at any given time, a LOT of veteran wide receivers floating around the league. Figure that each year there are 96 WRs who have roster spots as the nominal #1, #2, or #3 receivers on their respective teams.

Some of those stink. But, others have the tools to be an NFL receiver, but have underproduced for a variety of reasons -- bad team, bad QB, stuck behind Pro Bowl receivers, etc.

It's hard to land a superstar receiver in free agency. But, if you are looking for serviceable NFL starters, they are out there and changing teams every spring.

The college guys seem to be a total crapshoot, regardless of where you draft them. Basically, the college passing game is sandlot football compared to the NFL. It appears to be a very difficult transition.

MJK- No problem.

A lot of what you see in a passing game is either combo routes ( say where they try and high/low a corner) or option routes where the receivers route is determined based on the coverage he sees.

That is why sometimes you see a QB throw a ball that isn't even near his receivers. Either the receiver ran the wrong (option) route, or the quarterback diagnosed the coverage wrong. Then you hear the announcer incorrectly talking about " why would he throw it there where there wasn't even a player"?

For example, if your the only receiver to your side, and the coverage is press, you might have a 9 or "go route". You will try and get off the line and run a streak on the corner.

In the same play, if the corner is playing 7 yards off the ball, you might stretch that player about 12 yards to get him to turn his hips and honor your speed and then you will run a stop or curl route.

Both the QB and receiver are responsible for pre-snap reads and reads DURING the play. The stop/go was a simple example, but the tight end will have to read linebackers and safeties during the play. A lot of those offenses based on option routes are really designed for backs to get into the edges/openings of zones. It is impossible to create a web that blankets the whole field, so OC's try and attack the gaps/edges of these zones. With all the rules, nobody really plays man. You will see it by certain corners and you will see it on blitzes, but the NFL is a zone league. You want smart receivers wro run good routes and can correctly read zones. There should be no surpise that we are seeing these fast QB types ( like Boldon, Battle, Jones, Stewart, Ward, Vick, former HS QB's) converted to receivers.

117- I agree 100%. What happens if you have a crap QB, or are playing behind Randy Moss etc.

"Exactly. If Stallworth really does do that well, I think it’ll be restructured."

If stallworth does well, the patriots have no leverage, so they wont be able to get him to restructure. They can cut him, or take the option.

If he had a big year, he'll be hoping they cut him.

"Reche Caldwell
Jabar Gaffney
Chad Jackson
Donte Stallworth
Wes Welker
Kelly Washington"

One thing to note about that, is :
Stallworth and Welker are both 25, and locked up long term, if the patriots desire.
Jackson is 22, and most likely locked up for the next 4 years.

Gaffney is 26, Caldwell is 27, Washington is 27.

So, what we're probably looking at here is the entire patriots wideout core for the next 5 or 6 years. I dont expect them to draft any more wideouts for a couple years. Now, one thing bellichek keeps complaining about, is finding WRs smart enough to play in their system. If they've found a couple of those, and they'll be together for the next 4 or 5 years, thats definitely a good thing.

well I tell a Stallworth-washington story and now they are teammates...

If stallworth does well, the patriots have no leverage, so they wont be able to get him to restructure. They can cut him, or take the option.

Conversely, if Stallworth plays really well, the Pats will be thrilled to exercise the option on a 5 year, $28.5 million, $11.5 guaranteed contract.

I know it's hard for us fans to recalibrate our thinking, but with the new cap environment, that would be a very attractive free agency deal for a #1 wide receiver. It is, for example, much less than Deion Branch got a year ago. By this time next year, that will be the going rate for a JAG #1 receiver.

BTW, we can get a glimpse of what the Pats believe would be an excellent year for Stallworth. He has incentives that pay him an additional $100,000 at 70 catches, 75 catches, and 80 catches. If he can give them 50-60 catches and stretch the defense, I suspect that the Pats will be very pleased. He's averaged 47 catches in his first five years, so I don't think those numbers are unachievable in a Tom Brady passing offense that likes to throw the ball downfield.

I don't think Stallworth will lead the Pats in receptions, simply because they've got other receivers who specialize in the short possession stuff (Welker, Faulk, etc.) However, it is possible that Stallworth will lead the Pats in receiving yardage. Having his speed complicates life for defenses immensely.

> "I think its a better deal for the Pats than Stallworth, but I think its still a much better deal than he would have gotten had he insisted on a contract with no team opt out/in option."

Well yeah, if the Patriots had exercised their hypnotic powers and gotten Stallworth to agree to a five-year contract at low money throughout, the deal could have been even better for the Pats. But since Stallworth thinks more of his future that that, realistically I think this is the way to go with a more high-risk player (some injury history, the drug program issue). It's a compromise but the absolute worst thing for a team is having to eat a large amount of dead bonus/guaranteed money (even worse than the player succeeding and having to pay or replace him, imo).

> "Conversely, if Stallworth plays really well, the Pats will be thrilled to exercise the option on a 5 year, $28.5 million, $11.5 guaranteed contract."

Agreed-- I don't see that this is outrageous money for a top-performing WR, which is why I think picking up the option after one year is a viable possibility. I think that based on his statements Rosenhaus might be greasing the skids, angling for an even bigger raise (where maybe he'd trade off some shortterm cap relief for more real dollars). But regardless I'm sure that the Patriots left themselves with at least some leverage, or otherwise there would be no point to the second part of the contract.

re: 121

Stallworth will be 27 in November.

Washington will be 28 in August.

Welker will be 26 when the season starts.

Caldwell will soon be 28.
Gaffney will be 27 in December.

...based on his statements Rosenhaus might be greasing the skids, angling for an even bigger raise...

Well, Rosenhaus is always angling!

But, I think the second part of the deal is a win-win for the team and the player. It's not a hideously expensive deal for the Pats and it's not chump-change for the player. It's the kind of deal that you would like to strike if the team and the player are happy and productive for each other.

I guess the only scenario where the option could be a bad deal for Stallworth would be if he had a bust-out 100+ catch season. But, that is unlikely to happen the way the Pats spread the ball around. It's not like Brady just drops back, closes his eyes, and heaves the ball downfield like some of these NFL offenses.

With all the Pats WR signings, I think #27 had it right... they're improving their defense! (My vote for post of the thread)

OMG! The PATS!!! just signed WR Kelley Washingtion. Belichick + Piolli = GENIUSES = Super Bowl!!!

Now we have a bunch of awesome University of Tennessee Vols WRs to replace all those crappy Florida WRs that proved what geniuses Belicheck and Pioli were last year!

Brady to Donte, Brady to Kelley, Brady to Welker -- TD -- 7 Points to the Pats!

* DISCLAIMER: The above is not an actual comment board submission from a Patriots fan, but instead reflects the writer's attempt to convey the tone and spirit of the vast majority of Patriot fans' comments on this momentous day. Any resemblance to actual Patriots fans, living or dead, is entirely intentional.

Re: 127 -- a reasoned analysis for sure regarding the prospects from the deal for both the team and Stallworth, but can you please name a 100-catch receiver who benefitted from being in one of those dumb NFL offenses in which the QB just drops back, closes his eyes, and heaves the ball downfield?

I don't know about 100 catches, but that certainly sounds like Eli Manning's approach to getting the ball to Burress...

Or Culpepper's approach to getting the ball to Moss a couple of years ago.

..but can you please name a 100-catch receiver who benefitted from being in one of those dumb NFL offenses in which the QB just drops back, closes his eyes, and heaves the ball downfield?

Randy Moss. Steve Smith. Mushin Muhhamed.

I would say that both Dante Culpepper and Jake Delhomme qualify as "close your eyes and heave it downfield" QBs. It's actually a bit of an NFC offense staple.

Contrast to Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne who catch balls in precision passing offense where the QB almost always is throwing to a route in both space and time.

Two things I like about the Washington signing. First, he's got a lot of upside. Though he was fourth on the depth chart in Cincy, he impressed me every time he was given the opportunity(that is, every time Henry was benched or suspended). And he's got the height and athleticism to be a real nice weapon in the endzone. Second, he's not going to Miami.

Re 114:
For someone who vehemently denies being a racist you see that accusation in a lot of places. Seems like something's on your mind...

Mods:

Can we please have a new thread entitled Official Thread for Irrational Racist/Not Racist Arguments?

Thank you

Hey did you guys catch the latest Pat Kirwin mock draft on NFL.com

Adam Carriker is a "high character player", while Paul Posluszny is a "football intelligence" guy.

Re 135
Seconded

Re 135:
So, any discussion that mentions the words white or black should be discounted? Rich obviously has some sort of issues because he has continously accused other people of being racist or making racist accusations against him. There are interesting discussions to be had without calling anyone racist but necessarily will involve talk about race and the league. If some people can't be mature about it, I don't see why that should shut down all discussion.

Why can't we all just get along? Can't we learn to hate each other for sports related reasons only?

138

No, MacTbone. I only call people racist when they go and assume that anytime anyone says something infering that people are racist just because they used the word "smart".

YOu read into everything, and think its an issue of race. I think you're just looking to play the race card.

140: Mactbone didn't say that anyone was being racist at any time, Rich, while you did. You don't have to freak out anytime someone mentions racial stereotypes. The point of Mactbone's comment was not that Patriot fans are racist, but that he finds it interesting that many of the stereotypical white athlete traits that we often make fun of in other contexts are used for ALL Patriot players, regardless of their actual talents. The whole team is supposedly defined by it, which seems odd.

On an unrelated note, there's no way that's the WR corps for the Pats for 5-6 years... I mean come on, nobody keeps an entire unit together that long. All 6 of those guys won't even be there next year, let alone 5 years. Not to mention they'd all be 32. The Pats might not draft one this year, but they will be soon enough.

Chris: I don't think I agree that wide receivers are a crapshoot... plenty of the high picks pan out just fine as fantastic players. Maybe the success rate is a little worse than offensive linemen, but we're talking about a pretty small sample. I don't see any real reason that Wide Receiver should be any harder to scout than other positions. Think about offensive lines, for instance... sure, it's a sandlot passing game, but if there's any position on the field you can get away with just being huge, it's college offensive line. Not to mention how frequently teams have bizarre spread or option-based schemes, which bear little resemblence to pro offenses.

Oh, one other thing Chris: I don't think that Larry Fitzgerald was ever called "no potential," or wasn't expected to be very, very good. I mean, he was drafted third, and at the time was called one of the best WR prospects ever. ESPN.com said he might have had the best eye-hand coordination of any player, EVER. At the same time, it's true that he's not a "deep threat." He catches a lot of shorter routes, and finished tied for 42nd in yds/rec this year and 31st last year. He's a fantastic player, but it's obvious to me that there is a big difference between him and "stretch the field" fast WRs like Lelie, Santana Moss, or Lee Evans.

I've seen Bolden and Fitz ( both 4.6 speed) catch plenty of Deep balls. Do you remember that Jump ball throw from Josh Mccown at the end of the 1st half in the Arizona/49ers game in Mexico?

Fitz has a higher YPC than Randy Moss, Lelie isn't even compareable to him, and Santana Moss's YPC was less than 1 yard higher. I also know that Moss benefited from the redskins horizonal offense and catching a 5 yard screen pass and running 50 yards. I wouldn't call a 5 yard screen turned into a 50 yard run being a "deep threat". Now Moss can catch the deep ball also but I'd argue Fitz is a better deep threat. He's taller and uses his body to box defenders out. In effect he doesn't need the same seperation that other faster players require because his "skills" are superior in height, using his body, jumping, hands, hand eye coordination.

My point is that under different circumstances a guy running a 4.6 would be dismissed as a "possession" receiver and lose a lot of his stock value. Jerry Rice has every WR record imaginable and HE ran a 4.6.

There are plenty of good receivers that pan out, but what about the Desmond Howard, Peter Warrick, JJ Stokes, David Terrels, Charlie Rodgers, Yatil Green, Rae Carruth, and Freddy Mitchells of the world?

Kelley Washington may be a better long-term signing than Stallworth. Washington was pretty good as a rookie in 2003 as the no. 3 receiver (starters Johnson and Warrick) and was decent in 2004, though overtaken on the depth chart by the more veteran TJ Houshmandzadeh (who had missed 2003 with injury) but by the end of the season was back to no. 3 (TJ starting in place of injured Warrick). I recall a ~30 yd TD reception vs. the Patriots in week 13. In 2005 he was often inactive because he did the same things as TJ, but not quite as well and wasn't able to do the things that rookie Chris Henry could do ( run streaks and gos past people seemingly at will). Combined with the fact that Washington wasn't much of a special teams guy (or at least not as much as Kevin Walter and Tab Perry) he rarely saw the field in 2005, but played very well when he did. (I have not checked DVOA and DPAR to back this up, but just trusted my eyes). In 2006, his commitment to Special teams combined with Walter's and Perry's unavailability meant that he was active and again played very well, though he did suffer an injury in week 6 or so that finished him for the rest of the way.

With Johnson, Houshmandzadeh, Henry, Perry, Chatman on the roster and a whole raft of young guys that the coaches like such as Bennie Brazell, Skyler Green, Reggie McNeal and Glenn Holt, there probably wasn't a spot for Washington on the Bengals this year. So... I don't think the Bengals "gave up" on him. I think he can play and certainly has the potential to exceed any of the guys on the Patriots in 2006. However, I also see that he signed a contract structured similarly to the Stallworth contract. He'll be cheap in 2007 but probably expensive for 2008.

"The point of Mactbone’s comment was not that Patriot fans are racist, but that he finds it interesting that many of the stereotypical white athlete traits that we often make fun of in other contexts are used for ALL Patriot players, regardless of their actual talents."

Right, but mactbone assumes that anyone who uses those words, uses it in a racial nature, which is where i take offense.

Peter, if it was just the comment in this thread, I wouldnt have a problem with it. But its not this thread. Its every thread where someone uses the words "smart, hard working," he insinuates that theyre a racist.

143: Well of course they catch deep balls... the slowest WRs in the league will, every so often. As you point out, jump balls are really Fitz's specialty, he's got amazing hands and absurd leaping ability. Anyway, we can throw some examples back and forth, but I think the point is still clearly made that he catches shorter passes than most WRs (obviously, that doesn't make him less valuable... it's kind of like a power back versus a speed back). S.Moss, also, doesn't really have that many yards after the catch, he finished at least after 50th in that stat. Doesn't it say something that Fitzgerald almost never catches screens, though (and has a very low YAC for the amount of receptions/yards he gets)?

Anyway you're right, Fitzgerald isn't really your point, I was just disagreeing with the example you chose. In my opinion, though, there is a clear disparity between the two "styles" of receiver, and that it doesn't necessarily hurt your draft stock to play the "possession" receiver position really, really well. Like Fitzgerald, or Mike Williams, or Dwayne Jarrett (although maybe I should wait for him to be drafted before I say that).

I think what really happens is that the very top-end WR prospects are players who everyone wants to do BOTH, like Calvin Johnson or Roy Williams (and thus duplicate Randy Moss). Unless you're truly exceptional, players who are slower but stronger fall, as do players who are faster but weaker. Maybe the lesson to be learned is that WRs can't do it all very frequently, so the best prospects know their roles. I don't think all WRs should be evaluated on the same criteria of "skill," as you do.

145: Okay, fair enough, this has come up in at least two threads recently. I still think taking it as far as "racist" is a little much; in this thread, he pointed out something he found interesting. In the Pac-Man thread, it was actually Sophandros who first commented, and granted HE got upset with Chris for the sentence "Don’t let the NFL turn into the NBA, kick that thug out of the league" and accused him of using a codeword. I didn't agree with much you said in that thread, and I think you went too far even in your first post, but I think you may have been justified for being critical of Sophandros for being so accusatory towards Chris. Soph could have just said "thug has a lot of racist connotations, you should avoid using it. I also disagree about blahblah." Then again, you could have said "you've gone too far in accusing Chris of racism because he used what you see as a codeword" instead of "you, sir, are a racist."

Anyway, that's enough metacommentary on this issue... I'm continually amazed that these message boards don't degenerate into the nonsense that usually accompanies a discussion on something political. I still think there's room for improvement on the civility front, though.

Peter Libro-

I respectfully disagree with your assessments of Boldin and Fitz. On one had you talk about how even the slowest receivers catch deep balls, but on the other hand you agree on his leaping and jump ball ability.

Now the context of a "jump ball" is usually a deep ball ( like the arizona/SF in Mexico) example I provided. It's not like your throwing jump balls on these 5 yard drag routes, or stop routes. You might see a jump ball on the sideline of a cover 2, where the safety has to defend the very edge of his zone ( by the sideline). You might see a jump ball against man coverage deep down the field ( 1 on 1).

A bigger WR, who positions his body well doesn't need 3-5 yards of seperation created by blazing speed. The 6'3 or so Fitzgerald might box out the 5'10 corner so that only HE could make the play.

Your right in that different players have different skills. Moss might creat seperation by his speed and agility, while Fitz might not have as much seperation, but won't NEED as much seperation.

You cited Moss as a deep threat, but Fitz has a higher YPC than Randy Moss, and is less than 1 yard than Santana Moss. I know for a fact Santana has a lot of "long receptions" that were in effect screens that he took for long gains. Now that has value in itself, but not the stretch the safeties value we are talking about. Moss is almost like a K/P returner when he catches a screen ( so is SSmith). Anybody can catch a screen.

You know another top notch deep threat with slower speed is Terry Glenn. The guy is one of the most polished receivers left in the game. He catches a lot more deep balls than younger and faster players.

Out of the top 20 receptions leaders only Chad Johnson, Roy Williams, Reggie Wayne had a higher YPC than the 33 year old Glenn. Glenn beat out TO, Colston, SSmith, Speedster L.Coles, and Andre Johnson ( 4.3 speed).

I just think with a lot of west coast offenses rubbing off, a lot of zone defense, and a lot of read/reach schemes bigger recevers will become even more in flavor.

I also think bigger backs will have their time too.

147: The point about how even slow WRs catch deep balls was just to say that an anecdote about it happening (like Fitz catching that pass in Mexico) doesn't indicate that speed doesn't matter in catching deep passes. If I played NFL wideout, it would happen that the coverage breaks down and I'm left open downfield. That doesn't mean I have defense-stretching speed, or that the concept of defense-stretching speed doesn't exist. Also, where you REALLY find jump balls is in the endzone, and that's always been one of Fitzgerald's hallmarks. Sometimes you do catch jump balls over a defender downfield... I would maintain that that isn't the main way Fitzgerald gets his yardage, because he's clearly not getting very many yards per catch in comparison to others in the league.

Your examples don't inspire me much. Glenn, for instance, has always been praised first and foremost for his speed! Here's a comment from the ESPN scouting department about him: "Glenn is fast, explosive and agile. He has outstanding deep speed and initial quickness." Also, getting thrown a lot of screens doesn't really lead to a lot of yards per attempt for S. Moss or Smith; you tend to get tackled quickly. For either player to have a lot of yardage (not just YAC) they're clearly catching a lot of deep bombs along with those short screens that take advantage of their speed. Isn't that combination different than the way you'd use Fitzgerald, which should mostly be midrange catches in traffic and in the end zone?

Anyway, I could put this entirely to rest if I had my 2006 Prospectus, but unfortunately I'm out of town and don't have it. Sure, slow WRs can catch deep passes, especially by jumping over defenders. That's not really a common NFL play (because of how athletic the corners are) and doesn't mean that speed isn't the most important factor for being a "deep threat."

Dude, I hate to break it to you but there really isn't THAT much of a difference between a 4.6 and a 4.4 40 time. Even so, it's not very often where a player runs 40 straight yards without being touched. I'll also comment that i've seen slower guys burn people downfield that were faster than them.

Tony Dungy was once commenting about how his 4.6 guys on kickoffs were somehow getting to the returner faster than the 4.4 guys ( jaquez green)!

Some people attribute this to "game speed" that doesn't have the artificial controls of No pads, no thick cleates, flat surface, and nothing to do but run straight ahead.

Glenn, Boldin, Fitz, JRice all run 4.6s. Glenn is one of the best deep threats in the game at 33. Another thing is that I wouldn't call a 4.6 "slow".

Fitzgeralds 13.7 YPC is right in the mix with other high reception receivers. I don't know why you deny that. He's right in the mix with all the other big name WR's but some of the guys with a lot less catches have higher averages but part of that variance could be due to the lack of trials.

Fitz can catch screens too, but SSmith and SMoss are a lot more agile ( they are shorter). Those screens turn into almost punt returns as it turns open and field tackle drill with these lighting quick returner types. They both have the ability to take a screen to the house as they have done in the past.

....Okay Chris, I actually never mentioned 40 times at any time in any of my posts, and I agree that it is not the ideal way to measure speed. Are you suggesting there is no such thing as speed? I mean... some players are faster than others, is that really in dispute?

Again, sure, Glenn is 33... he's also 5'11" and exceptionally fast. His speed has been one of the principal reasons he is in the league, he's one of the worst examples you could offer. I'm extremely skeptical that he ran a 4.6, though as you rightly point out, it's not like even that would be a certain demonstration of his speed on the field.

Anyway, this is a pointless discussion without real numbers... I guess I'll just close by saying that speed of course matters in Wide Receivers, and generations of scouts are not ignorant about the NFL when they put a lot of stock into how fast a WR is. Other skills also factor in, much as speed counts into every other position.

Glenn is 33 years old and runs a 4.6. Even a couple of years ago people were saying the Dallas receivers are old and that they had no "deep threat". I laughed.

What makes Glenn one of the best receivers is that he is one of the most polished receivers out there. Route running, cuts, hands, reading the defense etc. Watching the guy is like a work of art.

I forget who said it, but I think it was Testaverde who said he's the most skillful recceiver he's ever played with. I think Parcells might have said that about "she" as well.

Speed is important, no doubt, but the way offenses are run you can get by without it. There really isn't THAT big of a difference between a 4.6 and a 4.4 anyway, and sometimes they 4.6 guy can outrun the 4.4 guy. I know it is a cliche but people say what is your "game speed". They were saying that about Fitz when he came out as a way to justify his high selection.

BTW. I heard Dwayne Jarret was in the 4.7 range and that's why he didn't run at the combine. How would that look when he runs a 4.7 and that Ivy League Linebacker runs a 4.5, or Vernon Davis in the 4.3 range last year.

Am I the only one that finds it pretty damn funny watching someone get so pissed off because they are assuming someone else is assuming something?

I agree that speed has value, but it is "overrated" at the Receiver position.

People think you can go grab a track star and give him shoulder pads and boom, you have a top notch receiver with a lot of "potential".

Jerry Rice, Larry Fitszerald, Terry Glenn all prove this.

And you know, speaking of Terry Glenns speed ( I watched all of Dallas's games the past 2 years), it's not like he just lines up and runs a 9 route when he catches a deep ball. A lot of the deep balls he caught were on flag routes and other routes where he shook the defender. I can specifically remember a catch against washington.

Our receivers coach used to call it "acting". There is a lot of "acting" that goes along with the position.

Some receivers will walk up to the line and LOOK, at exactly where they are going to run their route, or they look down before they are about to cut etc.

A good WR, will scan the field and keep his head up while he runs looking at the coverage and not at the ground where he's going to cut.

The good WR will have his footwork memorized on his routes and he won't have to count out footsteps or yards for a certain route. Sort of like how in baseball a good base runner will look at the defense/outfielders and NOT at 1st or 2nd base.