He certainly was. Probably a top-5 QB all time, in my opinion, or at least very close to that exalted list.

We'll wait and see whether he's actually retired for good, though...

Bye, Brett. See you in Canton.

It's been fun watching this guy play, but, on the bright side, Peter King's columns will be 15-30% shorter next season.

Even when he was putting the niners out of the playoffs every year and costing us superbowls he was a pleasure to watch. I've only ever seen a couple of quarterbacks (Marino and Elway) who could deliver the ball with his combination of velocity and accuracy, he had a lightning release too.

Now I hope that Aaron Rodgers turns out to be utter rubbish, karma you know.

I will say this - it doesn't seem like Favre had competing contemporaries for best QB of his time. Elway & Marino were fading and then retired, and Manning was still in college and then too young to be in the argument. Steve Young, maybe, but his career ended in Manning's rookie year. That was when Favre was on top, but Favre still had a few years. The only one of the great QBs that seems to be Favre's contemporary was Troy Aikman.

Now just imagine his speech in Canton in 5 years...that's gonna be gold...

In a dark basement in North Jersey, Peter King is curled in the fetal position. A worn, scratchy tape of Super Bowl XXXI plays silently on the television behind him. Between cursing God and scratching at his eyes, a large man weeps softly and sniffs a frayed jock strap.

7: At least there were no references to condiments in that post, we should be thankful for that on this sad day.

Seriously this was a pretty high note to go out on. Yeah people say they were so close to the superbowl but you never know what comes down the road. He was fantastic last year and was on one of the best teams in football, pretty good way to go out.

Harris, you're an evil man. Almost certainly right, but evil nonetheless.

And yes, he was that good.

5: According to Wikipedia (so make of this what you will) Aikman retired before Young.

#5 I hope that when I'm fading I can still be a Super Bowl MVP.

I'm shocked, really.

Harris: You just forgot that Celine Dion's "My Heart Will Go On" is probably playing in the background.

That said, what a great career. It's nice that Brett gets to go out after a good season.

I wonder if this had anything to do with Randy Moss resigning with the patriots yesterday?

Re 7 - I also immediately thought of Peter King, who is traveling to see the troops in Afghanistan this week. Has anyone put him on suicide watch yet?

In all seriousness, Brett was always a lot of fun to watch, even when (or perhaps because) he was throwing bone-headed interceptions that cost his team a playoff game. The game is diminished for losing him.

Karl, I don't agree this is a sad day. It's not a day for celebration, either, just a day we knew had to come. I do agree that he was, indeed, that good, probably better. When the requisite highlight reel and retrospectives are put together I believe we will be astounded at how good he really was.

That was appropriate: my antispam word was 4downs. Get it? "4" downs.

The King Chronicles, Part II:

King turns down the soundtrack to "Titanic" as Farve steps to the podium. Watching the press conference on a closed-circuit feed, he's had Farve's home and the Packer locker room wired for years, King's lower lip quivers until he sees Deanna Farve.

"You bitch," he screams. "You did this! You took my Bretty Boy away from me! Well now you'll pay. You'll all pay!"

Clad in only an unwashed game-worn #4 jersey from 1998 and his lower body covered in blackberry jam, Farve races from his house. Three hours later, New Jersey State Police get a report of a half-naked man stumbling down the Turnpike and screaming "I will always love you, Brett."

it's like when Colonol Kurtz died here in GB, everyone is running around without a guide.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I won't believe it until someone else is starting during Week 1 of the regular season.

Re 17:
Are you kidding? A piece of every Bears fan will be jumping up and down for weeks. Hey, we might finally put an end to the "here are all the QBs to start for the Bears while Favre has been in GB." Granted, Lovie seemed to have his number and Bears fans appreciate how good he was, but it's great not to be tormented anymore.

Strange, the guy had such a career rennaissance in 2007, you know he'd be top 10 in the NFL next year.

When Emmitt faded, Madden picked Favre as his crutch. and now he needs a new one.
PK does too.
I just hope they don't pick Brady or another Patriot as their go-to when they don't know what else to talk about. It's already been embarrassing enough since Phil Simms started using Brady as his binky.

Godspeed to you, Mr. Favre, and thanks for the memories!

Does anyone else see a comeback attempt in 2009?

As far as the Packers go, I'm worried that the QB situation is going to undermine an otherwise very solid team this year. Aaron Rodgers being unproven doesn't worry me nearly as much as the frequency with which he seems to be injured despite not playing that much, including breaking is foot running out of bounds(?!) in 2006. Especially with some issues on the interior line, that could be... problematic.

Worse, they really haven't had a good developmental QB since trading Hasselbeck in early 2001.

If QB play undermines their season this year, I wonder if they'd be players for McNabb next offseason. The team has few holes, basically just the secondary (which I expect to be addressed in the draft with like 4 mid-round picks of small-school players that no one's ever heard of) and, now, QB...

Shocking.
Now the NFC NORTH is the worst division QB-wise, hands down...

That would be quite a long list for most teams of the QBs who have started since during the Favre era.

I shudder to think of how many QBs the Vikings have gone through in that time.

More and more in sports we are seeing that there is a real benefit to consistency. Having the sames coaches, scheme, OL or QB brings obvious benefits (assuming they dont suck of course...).

In honor of Favre, the Packers will line up for their first offensive play of 2008 without a quarterback.

I certainly loved watching Favre for 17 years, after watching crappy GB teams for my first 14. I will fondly remember all the moments where he did something that made you say, "No other QB in the league could have made that play."

I look forward to next year, and seeing if Rogers can play (and stay healthy). It will be an interesting year, even if GB winds up stinking.

GB could certainly wind up like Chicago, trying to replace their hall-of-fame QB for the next 50 years.

Wait. Who is this guy again? The actor?

When Emmitt faded, Madden picked Favre as his crutch. and now he needs a new one.

He had pretty much already selected Hines Ward, but then Favre hung around a few more years and Ward's career is winding down, now, too. So who knows what direction he'll go next?

Well, for the first time in what seems like a millenium, the Packers may not have the best qb in the division, although Rogers could still hold the title, given the competition.

As great as Favre's numbers are, if the Packers hadn't gone astray for several years with Ray Rhodes and Mike Sherman, and had retained offensive coaches who were willing to, you know, coach Favre, they would have been even more impressive.

To me, Favre was most fun to watch prior to his thumb injury, on bad weather days, when he would be hurling lightning bolts through small windows, while mere mortals were putting up wounded, flailing, ducks.

Re 27: The 49ers have been preemptively honouring Favre for years now then.

Re 19: I'm fearful that there might be a part III to this tale. . . with extra jam.

General point: Is this that bad for the Packers? The defense is good, the offensive line is young and improving, the receivers are a useful bunch and they just found a runner; all things said it isn't a bad time to bring in a young quarterback who had begun to show glimpses of talent last year.

Trogdor: Do you play as Trogdor on Xbox live? If so then I think I played against you the other day.

Favre's position in the list of great quarterbacks may be debated, but he is certainly the greatest pro football player to play the game. Records, unbelievable ability, charisma, durability, toughness; the best player the NFL ever had.

Mine! Mine! He is finally mine! Now, where's that Thousand Island dressing...

Re 31: Agreed, I think those are among my favorite memories too.

I think my top off the cuff memory of Favre is his hail mary to Sterling Sharpe to beat the Lions in the Silverdome in a wildcard game.

The King Chronicles, Part III: After leaving the Turnpike to escape the approaching sirens, King holes up in a daycare and keeps police at bay for more than seven hours with nothing more than a “Farvey” doll and his own feces. Eventually they take him down and haul him off to a nearby psychiatric hospital. John Madden is called in for a consult.
“Peter, what are you doin? You’re acting all crazy and-and-and . . . and-and-and you can’t do that.”
“Oh, John. I can’t go on. Football has no meaning, LIFE has no meaning, without my Bretty Boy.”
“I know. I loved him too. You think they’ll always be there and-and-and . . . and-and-and BOOM. They’re gone.”
(sniff) “It’s true. So true.”
“But there will be other—”
“You shut up! There’ll never be anybody else like him! Never!”

King lunges at Madden, but falls because he’s been shackled to the wall. With his bloodied nose, he begins painting the number “4” over and over on the floor.

“You are the wind beneath my wings,” he weeps. “You are the sun and I am but a moon reflecting your glory. I am cold and dead without you.”

I guess I'm glad he's gone, which is odd for a Packer fan, I suppose, but I want to turn the page and get started on the next era, not just the next year. When I think of Favre, I always think first of the bonehead plays, the big interceptions, and that's not fair. I also remember talking to a Bears fan a few years ago, when, mired in the Sherman years, I opined that Brett retiring might be ok. My friend quickly retorted that I didn't know how lucky I was, that having a terrific quarterback, even one who had 'down' years when he's middle-of-the-pack leaguewise, for such a long time is such a boon to an organization. And the thing was, that's precisely the argument I always make when discussing the value of QB x, or the real problem with, say, the bad QB situation of the Bears.

I know I've undervalued Favre for the last several years. Yes, he should have taken himself out when his thumb was hurt years ago and he was playing very poorly because of it, and some things, like his approach in the Dallas game this year, and the famous dying-quail INT vs the Eagles in the playoffs, etc, etc, are legitimately sizable negatives on the ledger. But he was also terrific, and for a long, long time. He was CLEARLY the best guy in the league in the mid 90s. Aside from his passing, he ran for yardage early in his career, he was to the end outstanding at avoiding the rush, he ran many versions of the West coast offense, and his best receivers were YAC guys like Driver and Sharpe(though Freeman had a couple good years), and he didn't have anyone really long-term.

My brother, who also bashes Favre a lot, likes to point out just how many guys got famous by playing with him, or coaching him. Not just Holmgren, but look at all the guys who came out of there. That's always thought of as the 'Holmgren tree,' but how many acorns have fallen from that tree since Holmgren left GB? How many receivers put up 1000 yard seasons? How many generic tight ends looked good with Favre throwing to him?

For whatever reason, no group of athletes so readily acquire some sort of unreasonable media sheen as NFL QBs. And not always positive, godlike, untouchable sheens, either (McNabb). Marino was lucky to acquire one very early in his career, as was Elway. Favre earned his, and the subsequent backlash is at least as inappropriate.

I'm glad he's retiring, but I might regret it.

Is Favre "certainly the greatest pro football player to ever play the game"? His durability has been incredible, and he does own a lot of records, but if there's an argument about whether he was the best QB ever, I don't see how he can be clearly the best player ever.

Mike W, if Rogers turns out to be Joey Harrington, trust me, you'll regret Favre's departure.

Thanks for making Green Bay relevant.

Good luck in the next phase of your life.

The five NFL players whose careers I saw most of, non-Viking division, who I enjoyed watching most, in no particular order.....

Reggie White
Walter Payton
Anthony Munoz
Peyton Manning
Lawrence Taylor

Holy unexpected (and sad) news Batman!

Favre will be missed.

The end of the end of an era.

Sounds like there were some hard feelings:

(AP) -- Green Bay Packers quarterback Brett Favre has decided to retire from the NFL after 17 seasons.

''He has had one of the greatest careers in the history of the National Football League, and he is able to walk away from the game on his own terms -- not many players are able to do that,'' Packers general manager Ted Thompson said Tuesday.

Favre's agent Bus Cook said the 38-year-old quarterback told him of his decision Monday night.

''Nobody pushed Bret Favre out the door, but then nobody encouraged him not to go out that door, either,'' Cook said by phone from his Hattiesburg, Miss., office.

Brett Favre was so good in his prime, he made Bill Schroeder a 1000 yd receiver. #4 will be missed.

The King Chronicles, Part IV: King sits catatonic in a padded room, his face smeared with his own blood. His left foot bandaged because he tried to gnaw his pinky toe off because “five is too many.”
Suddenly, a bright glow warms his face.
“Peter,” says a gentle voice that comes from nowhere and everywhere all at once.
King blinks twice and stares at the golden figure.
“Tony? Tony Romo?
“That’s right, Peter. I have come to you in your hour of need.”
“Tony, I . . . I want to love you. I do, but . . .” A single tear slides down King’s face.
“I know, Peter. You need never fear again.”
King is drawn to Romo before suddenly rearing back. “No! Despite your devil-may-care insouciance, your blazing smile, your sometimes inexplicable decision-making, I’ll never love you like I loved him. I can’t, I can’t.”
“Peter, I think you should see this.” Romo waves one hand and his football pants disappear.
“Magnificent,” King says. “The hair so flaxen. The shaft so perfect. The testicles, my God! They’re like two perfect golden peaches.”
“I think they need washing, don’t you, Peter?” Romo reaches down and caresses King’s face.
King hesitates, his second chin quivering.
“I . . . I . . . Yes! I will wash them! I will wash them as no testicles have been washed before!”
A choir of angels begins softly humming “A Groovy Kind of Love.”

Re: 46. Ok then. Wow.

Um... I am as happy as the next guy that Favre is retiring. Hopefully, now Peyton Manning will be able to break all of his records. However, this is a "family" website and I am not sure that that last post is appropriate. Certainly very funny... but appropriate... not sure

Re:46 - Did we officially jump the shark? Wow! Funny but wow!

If (and that's a big "if") 2007 was Favre's last year, he's going out after a season in which he was clearly one of the top 5 QBs in the NFL. How many of the all-time greats can say that?

so wait, does eli manning become the best qb in the nfc now by default? I know i'm not using dvoa stats to determine this but just off the top of the head but bear with me; eli has a ring, romo doesn't and lost to eli in the playoffs, mcnabb doesn't and i think has as many playoff wins as eli in like 5 more years, hasselbeck lost in the superbowl but he probably comes to the closest. And i'm taking eli over hasselbeck right now, sorry seattle fans.

Re: 38 I think you kinda missed the point. I think the OP was talking about "best" in a way that encompassed things other than purely his ability as a player.

Man... .Brett Favre retires and Gary Gygax dies on the same day.

Part of my childhood is gone...

#51:

I'll take Romo over Eli any day of the week. Eli certainly looked good in the postseason, but when it comes to Romo, people seem to have a serious case of "What have you done for me lately?" syndrome.

Until his injury/slump at the very end of the season, Romo was playing at an elite level. He had at least half a dozen games that were better than any games that Eli had last year (including the postseason).

You can argue that Romo's stats look better because he had better weapons than Eli, but that argument cuts both ways. If the Giants didn't have such a great defense, all anybody would be saying is how Eli and the Giants didn't have the firepower to keep up with the Patriots. No matter how you slice it, 17 points is hardly an offensive explosion.

As lame as this sounds, I'm sitting in my office hoping no one will bother me because of the occasional tears in my eyes. I'm so very torn as obviously this day (if it in fact remains the end of his career) was of course bound to come, so there is some relief mixed with the sadness. Above all, I'm happy that he had the season that he had before retiring because it pushed aside many of the negative opinions so many had formed of him. He certainly had his bad games (and, later in his career, years), but we forget (myself included) how dominant he was earlier in his career. He did not have the benefit of a dome/warm stadium to play in, he never (until arguably 2004 and then again this year) had a superior cast of receivers and yet look at his numbers. During the '96 season he lost Robert Brooks a handful of games in, lost Antonio Freeman for four weeks or so, lost Chmura for a few weeks, and had Edgar Bennett (whom I love, don't get me wrong) as his starting running back. His top receivers by yardage were Freeman, Don Beebe, and Keith Jackson. Certainly not a great cast. And yet he threw 39 tds (vs only 13 picks) and won a Super Bowl. He came into a team that had only had one winning season I believe since 82 (this is from memory, and I was born in 82, so probably not entirely accurate) and proceeded to go 16 seasons with only one losing record. He made decisions and lost games that were unthinkable. He more than made up for that by winning games that simply should not have been possible. He was the only constant on a franchise that has been near the top of the league virtually his entire career. I feel blessed that I was able to watch his career, and I hope for all of our sake that he returns. Thank you Brett, you brought a lot of joy into a lot of people's lives.

Other than Tarkenton and perhaps Elway before his last few years, it is hard to think of another historically upper echelon qb who accomplished more with fewer great offensive player surrounding him, especially guys who ran with or caught the ball. Even Tarkenton had more great surrounding offensive players over his last six seasons, although Tarkenton's teammates in his first 11 years were pretty bad for the most part.

Brett Favre as best QB of all time? No way.

Here is the list:

1. Joe Namath
2. Eli Manning
3. Terry Bradshaw
4. Donavan McNabb
5. Jim Kleinsasser

Aaron Rodgers just broke his foot celebrating.

Are people kidding? He is not top 5 nor even top 10 all time. Let's not forget the 200 plus INT's and all the boneheaded 'let me just throw it up there and pray someone catches the ball' throws.

As for ending the niners seasons, it was more the GB defense than Farve (if only god had told Reggie White to choose SF instead of GB). In that NFC championship game, Young had serious bruised ribs and GB were lucky. Steve Young was a hundred times better than Farve.

"If the Giants didn’t have such a great defense, all anybody would be saying is how Eli and the Giants didn’t have the firepower to keep up with the Patriots."

Except that in the last game of the regular season, the Giants had the firepower to keep up with the Patriots, despite their defense getting torched.

"Steve Young was a hundred times better than Farve."

We have now entered the irrational thread universe.

Where to begin??

Ok, Re 46: Wow, that is without a doubt the funniest thing I have ever read. Congratulations, will you please send that to PK for his next mailbag. Golden peaches? You sir are brilliant.

Re 55: My GF caught me crying(not whimpy balling, but you know...a couple of man tears). I think it actually earned me some brownie points, how you like them apples?

To anyone who says he is not top 5, well I suggest you pick another sport to follow.

- He is the all time leader in almost every statistical passing category.
- He started 16 seasons and Favre only had 1 losing seson, AMAZING.
- 2 SB appearances, 1 SB ring.
- 3 league MVPs.
- 7 Division titles.

Without a doubt Favre is a top 5 QB.

If you think about the major sports, football has the most "team element" to it. In basketball refs give the stars special treatment. In baseball the most important players (pitchers) only play 1 in 4-5 games.

So for those of you who want to point out Favres INT's; there are probably just as many times that someone dropped a big ball or the defense made a bone headed play that lead to the Packers losing.

The difference of course is that when the QB makes a mistake, everyone remembers it.

So lets remember him for what he is: The toughest QB to ever play the game. A competitive SOB that always gave it his all. The unquestioned leader of a team for 15 years. A charismatic human being that deserves respect for what he has accomplished. Thanks Brett, its been an honor to watch you play all these years!

re 59: I might agree with the 'not putting Favre in the top 5' argument, mostly because I have a lot of respect for guys like Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas and Sammy Baugh. Farve is definitely in the top 10 category. Seriously, Steve Young is not better than Brett Favre. Joe Montana, yes. Steve Young, no way. If Young was that great he would have found a way to win that NFC Championship game in spite of bruised ribs. Bruised ribs, really. It's not like he played with a separated shoulder (Emmitt Smith), Broken Leg (Gino Marchetti) or even a shredded knee (Phillip Rivers). On a discussion board talking about a guy with the longest consecutive starts streak, who played one of the most dangerous positions on the field, are you really gonna say that he was lucky to win a Superbowl because the other team's QB had bruised ribs?

Harris wins the "ROBO-PUNTER Award" for Most Amusing Comments in a thread" for 2008. It's only March, and I'm ready to hand over the trophy. Take a bow sir.

#52 - Perhaps I took it too seriously. It just seems a bit much to call him "certainly the greatest pro football player to ever play the game" on the basis of his numbers, his durability, and smiling a lot. "One of", I could just about stomach, but "certainly" is over the top.

I really liked watching Brett Favre play. I doubt he's in the top 10 QB's of all time, but if you asked me who I would watch for the sheer joy of watching a QB play - it would be him.

As a fan of the Vikings I really should have a hate on for a guy as successful as Favre was, but I always liked the guy - even when he was decimating my beloved Vikes.

I'm sorry, I appreciate Favre' greatness, but no, it is not sensible to simply discount the interceptions, especially in an era where the interception rate fell quite a bit. The interceptions greatly harmed his team's chances of winning, so they cannot simply be discounted.

I think it is very hard to precisely rank players throughout the history of the game, so I don't know if I would even try. To me, what speaks most strongly for Favre is the fact that he had no HOF quality receivers (with the possible exeption of Sterling Sharpe, if his career hadn't been cut short), running backs, or offensive linemen around him, yet he accomplished so much. That also might be a mitigating factor for the interceptions; he had to try to do more than other great qbs, because his offensive teammates couldn't do as much.

Re 46: I just wanted to say well done before that post gets deleted, superbly played sir!

Re 59: even as a niners fan I can't say that Favre was worse than Young, they're about even in my rankings for qbs.

Which is:
1-3 (in no order): Joe Montana, Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas

4-9 (again in no order): Young, Marino, Elway, Favre, P. Manning, Baugh

The human memory is terrible to rely on for this, but the thing I'll always remember about Favre is how ruthlessly automatic he was at moving the team down the field in the two minute offense. I can't think of another quarterback (I'm not that old, maybe there were more like this...) who was so consistent for so long at tacking on 3-7 points via a no huddle drive right before halftime. I remember hoping that he'd stall on so many of those late drives, and so many times seeing him successfully add on. For the bulk of his career, he was simply a machine at that. It was this quality that finally allowed me to get over my hatred of him for destroying the 49ers and develop a grudging respect for him.

Harris redeemed the thread, for me...and how odd is it that "smith" is the anti-spam word, given my team allegiance?

As for Favre leaving...the only thing I truly regret about it is that I'll now never get to see the Panthers beat him in the playoffs.

I won't pretend that he wasn't a good qb, but I also won't pretend that I ever liked him.

It was fitting that he went out on a good note...and I hope he will succeed in this stage of his life.

A great little article from Bob McGinn linked in my name.

ok so I was a little harsh with the 100 times better but I am just sick of the farve/media love fest. So you think he is in the top 5, ok let's see, he is not better than (modern era QB's only so far) Montana, Brady, Manning, Young, Elway (the first 5 that come to mind. And what did he do in the 2 SB's, they were a huge favourite against the Bronco's and got whipped. Desmond Howard saved his butt in the SB win and please don't start the he was not surrounded by great talent argument either. During the 90's he had one of the best defenses, always consistently good running games and very good (not great) WR and TE's and OL. Sorry, if you include some of the old time great QB's, he does not ven make it into the top 10. Not even close. Anyone who would seriously take him over Young all else being equal does not know what they are talking about.

Badger & Flounder have already pretty much covered it for me, but best of luck to Brett Favre in whatever his future endeavors are. He brought a lot of hope and joy to the fans of what had been a terrible franchise for many years.

As far as top 5, top 10 of all time, I'd have to say that in my own personal rankings, he's probably just outside the top 5, but it seems ridiculous for him not to be at least considered for any top 10 list you care to toss out there.

re: interceptions - yes, he had a lot. On the other hand, you don't get the opportunity to throw that many interceptions if you suck. Clearly, he was good enough for a long time (or showed flashes even in the bad years) to allow him to compile that "passing" record as well. And add some mumbo-jumbo about the other guys on offense not always being that great, too. Come on, Bill Schroeder as the leading receiver?

Re: Steve Young vs. Brett Favre, two seasons ago PFR did an analysis (linked in my name) that pegged Steve Young as the best QB since 1970, without including his rushing numbers in the analysis. Obviously not everyone (perhaps hardly anyone) will agree, but a statistical case for Young over Favre is not hard to make.

he was a better football player than he was a quarterback.

The King Chronicles, Part V: Two orderlies watch King through a window.
“Who’s that?”
“Peter King, the football writer. I heard he was singing the Southern Miss fight song when they wheeled him in.”
“What the hell is he doing? Eating an ice cream cone? He’s in there by himself.”
“Who knows? I thought he was pretending to catch grapes in his mouth.”
King falls back, exhausted from his work but clearly quite satisfied. His doctor enters the room.
“Well, Mr. King. How are you feeling? You gave us quite a scare. I never thought we’d get the Cheese Head out of you.
“I’m fine, doctor. Just fine. You might even say I’m on Cloud 9.”

Fini

As a Bears fan I can't in all honesty claim to be saddened by this news. I guess that is why he was such a great player. He threw a football like I might throw a pebble, it never looked like a 'coached' throwing motion just pure natural talent. And seriously tough, did he miss any starts in his time at Green Bay? Probably the most prodigiously talented QB I have ever watched, he just seemed born to play quarterback. Having said that he seems like the kind of guy who would probably have been perfectly content mowing lawns for a living.

Packers fans: next year you will see what a defense with a safety in the box looks like, you might have forgotten after 17 years.

Harris: you have a disturbing mind, but I hope it is a good while before you retire from posting in these boards. Condiments, gorilla mask and all.

Whenever I saw Brett Favre play, I was always reminded what was once said about Bobby Layne- "He never lost a game, time just ran out on him." Even at his worst, it always seemed like if you gave Favre the ball in a close game, he'd find a way to win.

amin, I wouldn't maker a case for Favre over Young, or vice versa, ignoring career lengths, of course, but don't discount how Young benefitted by playing several years with two Hall of Fame receivers, Rice and Owens, and a great running back in Ricky Watters. Favre had no offensive teammates of similar quality.

I also didn't know that Favre was playing defensive tackle in the Super Bowl versus the Broncos.

Or throw an interception.

How many drafts did it take to get those last two through the filter? You know who I'm talking to.

I vote Harris as next official member of FO

re 62, 75, I read footballoutsiders and baseballprospectus so i can avoid terrible analysis and generic comments such as this.

@62, So lets get this straight, football has the most team element, yet Favre should be given credit for his team's success? Thats just silly. There is more than just one person on the field.

Secondly, you said we shouldnt take into account Favre's INTs because other people on his team have also made mistakes before? This exact statement, except reversed would be "You should not take into account Favre's massive number of passing yards because the defense has made big stops in key situations too."

@ 75, do you know how many times I have heard that David Eckstein "cant run, hit, or field, can just win games", or "he was short but he was slow [but he can just win games and/or can just play baseball]" Its the most cliche, generic, appeal to emotion, sports analysis such as this that makes my entire body cringe.

Look, Is Favre top 5? I dont know. But he sure as hell isnt as good of a QB as Jim Kleinsasser.

Favre has an incredible arm and has been the top QB of his generation, but his generation was curiously shallow for top QBs, esp compared with the previous generation (Marino, Elway, Montana, etc.) View him as a bridge from the Young/Aikman years to the Manning/Brady years. Who were his contemporaries? Bledsoe? Culpepper?

It's easy to say that Favre didn't have as much talent around him as Young and Aikman did, but that's not the biggest beef with his play. The biggest issue is his propensity for interceptions, esp. in his later years. He threw far too many stupid passes to be considered the greatest ever. Certainly one of the most talented, but I would take Elway over Favre since Elway's arm was also incredibly strong but Elway didn't kill his team's chances with stupid passes.

#60: That's true, but most of the people who seem so eager to annoint Eli as a Top 5 QB don't seem to even remember that there was a regular season.

I really like the Elway argument for best ever, or at least the best since the '78 rule changes, and this is from a guy who for a long time was a Montana supporter for that title. Until the last few years of his career, Elway did not have great offensive teammates, either, and really carried some mediocre talent to a lot of wins and deep into the playoffs. The more I watch football, the more I become convinced that player interdependence makes evaluating individual football performance really, really, really, really hard.

Re 76 - If you and I weren't already married to other people, I'd ask you to marry me. Disturbing, but well played, sir. Well played.

With regard to all the talk about where Favre stacks up in the "Greatest QB of All Time" pecking order, I think it's hard to say. For starters, there's basically 2 ways to judge a player: observation or stats (or some combination of the two).

Unless you're old enough to remember guys like Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh, Sid Luckman, etc., then observation goes out the window. As for stats, the rules changes have made it extraordinarily difficult to make comparisons of guys from radically different eras.

Having said all that, my gut tells me that Favre probably belongs in the Top 10, but not in the Top 5. He kind of reminds me of a guy like Allen Iverson. They're both tough, gritty, stubborn players who are capable of single-handedly winning games, but also capable of single-handedly losing games. Of course, Favre has a ring and AI doesn't, but I've always felt "counting the rings" was a poor way to measure individual players.

harris, that was brilliant

Re:83

As a bronco-homer, I'll disagree with that statement a little bit, especially for early career Elway... He threw A LOT of dumb picks, for the same reason Farve did... they thought they could always sling a bullet into the tight space (and for the most part they were right). He grew out of it, largely because the emergence of TD meant he could be more of a "game manager" and just let TD run over opposing D's (while he kept them from pulling in the safety's to stop it).

I put Farve in the top 6-10 range... Karl Cuba's list kinda matches with a lot of my thoughts. Speculating/Ranking anyone in that top 10 list is kind of a pointless excercise. They're all the "best of the best." Farve was a truly amazing player, who I feel truly privelidged to have been able to see play.

Oh, and my sympathies to GB fans who now get to forever compare their current QB to the last one.... After 8 years, I finally have hope that we may have a new "franchise" in Cutler, but the intervening years were hard... and Cutler may still not pan-out.

Basically, the post-HOF QB hangover can suck... you don't even know how spoiled you've been 'til they're gone.

I'm keeping the Doug Johnson rule in mind, but Aaron Rodgers did look mighty impressive filling in last year. It was less than thirty passes, but he looked poised, made good decisions, didn't force anything, took what the defense gave him, and performed other acts that can be summarized by listing even more cliche football phrases. Even so, I was impressed with him and he gave me hope for the future.

Thanks everybody. It's disturbing, the places I go.

#81 Nick, I find the boys incredibly forgiving so long as one avoids the specifically banned topics. Anybody who thinks FO is a land of heavy-handed censorship, well, I think I just proved that ain't true.

#86 PhillyCWC, I mean, yeah, I'm married but I'm not a fanatic about it or anything.

# 89. Good points. I'd add, as has been said here before, that for many reasons it becomes all but ludicrous to compare any position between different eras. Quarterbacks of the forties and fifties can't be realistically compared to those of later times, because of changes in game strategy and rules changes.

As far as not knowing what you have 'til it's gone, I saw the Glory Days, I suffered through the Dark Years, and saw the light of the Favre Era so I have no illusions about what the next number of years may hold.

#82 - Well I am sooooo glad that you read books, jeez hows about you read something about world hunger and go ahead and take care of that little old problem there genious.

My point about the team element was that the one constant for Favre's tenure was him. His supporting cast changed, his coaching changed, even the league changed. Despite this the Packers always stayed competitive.

Further you dont win 3 MVPs and multiple division titles by accident. Certain elements of sports go beyond measurable numbers. If you dont think thats true than go plug in the Patriots 19-0 2007 season DVDs.

But Im sure your "books" have already taught you that. Hey have you read anything on dealing with pretenious pricks who post on forums?

Statistically Steve Young probably is better than Favre, especially considering Favre's high # of INTs. IMO Favre was a much better leader. His team responded to him and he made everyone around him better. Steve Young has the personality of a foam packing peanut. Jerry Rice caught more passes for more yards and more TDs from Steve Young, but he has never hesitated in stating that Montana was the better QB. Stats do not tell a complete story about a player. And I think it is fair to point out that Favre has performed his whole career without the benefit of HoF caliber receivers. Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Ricky Watters and Terrell Owens were all supremely gifted and routinely took 5 and 10 yard slants and curls for big gains. I understand that the QB has to deliver the ball in a way that allows the receiver to make a play. But let's be honest, Donald Driver, Bubba Franks, Dorsey Levens et all would be second and third stringers on those 49er teams of the 80s and early 90s.

A few thoughts on Favre:

1) As a 49er fan, I have to tip my hat to the man - he absolutely owned the 9ers for over a decade. His only loss to them came in that Wild Card game (1998?) where Young threw the winning TD to Owens with seconds left. Green Bay fans will rightly point out that without a bad call on a Rice fumble on that drive, Favre's record against the 9ers would be unblemished.

2) Subjectively, I felt that at his peak (mid/late 90's), he looked like the best QB I'd ever seen. I feared him more than an other opposing QB - there was a sense of almost inevitable victory when Favre was under center (in those days).

3) He made a lot of GB coaches look awfully smart. I think that all those Packer assistants who got HC jobs owe him a cut from every paycheck they get. Consider:

Holmgren (including Seahawks)
Reid
Mariucci
Gruden
Jauron
Morninwheg
Sherman
McCarthy

4) Ultimately, for all his Paul Bunyan-like legendary greatness, he must be held accountable for all those interceptions. They cost his teams numerous games, especially in the second half of his career, including some memorable playoff losses. The fact that his last ever pass attempt was the pick that kept his team from the Super Bowl, is perfectly appropriate and representative.

Well, for the Green Bay faithful, he'll always be the best. Man, we had YEARS of competitive teams, year after year, even if some of the playoff losses were tough to take... I was 14 when he first started, and since then we've had one (I think) losing season? He was fun, talented, aggravating, the best player the Packers have ever had - which says a lot considering the franchise history.

But I am looking forward to a new chapter. It should be really interesting to see what Aaron Rodgers can do with a young, talented team next year. What's crazy is that Packers fans are actually talking about bringing in QBs to training camp - I've never had this experience? QB competition? WTF is that, that only happens in places like Miami...

The problem with saying "top 5" or "top 10" or "top some finite number" is that new QBs are always coming along, and so the distinctions between "top 5" and "top 10" and "top 25" get smaller and smaller and smaller. What happens in a couple of years when we need to cram Peyton Manning and Tom Brady into that list? And then some of the other younglings? ("Come ON, you idiot! Jay Cutler has 0.05 career ypa higher than Favre, he's clearly better!")

So, to me, it's pointless to 'rank' QBs like that. Just classify them, it's a lot easier.

Favre's one of the greatest quarterbacks in the history of the game. That distinction also includes guys like Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Unitas, Montana, Marino, etc.

I don't know how you even begin to compare those guys, so why bother?

who cares about B Frave. Old goat Qb anyway who sucked in nfc champsnionp game.
Raiders signed Javon Walker. tonight.

Already downs a couple of Sierra Nevadas. More of the way in celebrtaion!!!!!

re 93: actually Footballoutsiders is a website. In fact its the one you are at...right...now. I mean, I understand that Football Outsiders is also a book, but reading in context, it would be obvious to one with a high school or higher reading comprehension level that I was talking about the website seeing as the complaint was that I came here with a certain expectation and my expectations were not kept.

As for your team element thing, that actually wasnt your point at all. You also gave him credit for his team's success while he was there, which he was certainly a large factor, but they built good teams around him too. Im not saying Favre is or isnt a top 5 QB, im saying that a large portion of your analysis that caused you to come to your conclusion was not only wrong, but contradictory in nature. The argument that football is the sport with the biggest team element actually argues AWAY from your conclusion.

You also said that his interceptions should be ignored because his teammates also screw up sometimes, which was clearly wrong, but I assume you concede the point since you did not respond to this section of the argument.

My "books", which I am now defining as "internet sites" since you apparantly feel the need to be your own lexicographer, have actually taught me about pretentious pricks who post on the internet. From what I have read, every time they try to insult someone they misspell a word (see: "pretenious" and "genious")

edit: paragraph 2, word "also" should have been deleted.

Michael Strahan should retire now so he and Brett can go into the Hall of Fame together.

Favre always impressed me most with his talent to improvise when plays were broken, much like Elway before him and Romo now. With a true cannon arm and incredible agility in the pocket paired with vision(the quality so lacking in the 'mobile' QBs), he's certainly one of the greatest to play the game. He's not the greatest pure passer I've ever seen(Sonny Jurgenson or Dan Fouts would be) but was an incredible talent on a mostly very good team, and a great leader.

91 - Harris, I think our respective spouses would have some objections. I know mine would, and I really don't relish the idea of Mrs. Harris hurting me with various implements of mass destruction. But it was a nice thought. :)

Wake me when the Brett Favre love fest ends on ESPN. Gawd they play that hero worship stuff out.

DJ Gallo reports.

105: That Gallo column is comedy gold. Eli Manning is unstoppable...

re 104:

Looks like Sapp just retired today as well. Coincidence?

Brett's interceptions weren't great, but over his career, his interception rate was only slightly below average. He's the NFL career leader in picks because the other guys who threw anywhere near as many passes were among the most accurate guys in the history of the NFL (most notably Marino); #2 and #3 threw far fewer passes (just by virtue of era).

I don’t know how you even begin to compare those guys, so why bother?

Because we need to have something to argue relentlessly about, and this way, there's no objective proof one way or another that could end the discussion.

The cold weather adjustment research is one of the things I'm most eagerly looking forward to in PFP 2008. I'd be intrigued to know how many fewer career interceptions we could have expected from Favre had he played in a dome or a warm weather stadium. I'm not saying I think his adjusted interception rate would be massively low - I'd just be interested to know how much difference it made.

The NFL has announced they are retiring the number four, league-wide. No player will ever again wear a four. This even includes numbers that have a four in them, as the numbers 14, 24, etc are also banned.

#111 - Frankly, that's disrespectful to the man's memory. If the NFL really wanted to make a difference, they would retire all shirt numbers that were even divisible by four.

Re 102: Hell, he's not even the best pure passer in GB history. That would be Lynne Dickey. (please note i'm not claiming Dickey was a better QB, or within several miles of being as good as Favre).

Re 105: Am I the only one who consistently finds DJ Gallo entirely un-funny? The only one that made me crack a smile was

"Great. Now he'll be more of a regular in our interracial two-hand touch games we play in a nearby wheat field while wearing our Wranglers as our dogs watch from the back of our pickup trucks." -- Brett Favre's friends

Which I have to admit is a pretty good one.

Mariucchi is talking about this on NFLN. I think he's going to cry. You'd think the man died, not retired.

another great article from Bob McGinn linked in my name.

Maybe if Testaverde played his entire career in Green bay (as opposed to Tampa bay, Jets, etc) he also would have won a superbowl, and he also would lead the league in interceptions.. remind you of anyone ?

RE: 83, 89. Yep, I'll agree with 89. Elway through lots of killer INTS. Basically from his rookie year until 1992. When Phillips took over as coach in 1993, Elway seemed to improve on that front, and then when Shanahan imported the WCO, he definitely did it less. But he had about 10 years of high INT totals.

Re 113: Actually the best pure passer in GB Packer history would be Cecil Isbell, who was nominated to the NFL All-Decade Team for the 40's. Dickey is at least second, maybe third if you believe Curly Lambeau about Arnie Herber.

Generally, I am glad Favre went out on his own terms. In time his great moments will outshine his mistakes, because there were more spectacular plays than mistakes. What really amazed me about Favre was that he never stopped growing as a QB -- his last season showed far more mastery of down and distance than any other year.

I'll try to keep my expectations of Rodgers reasonable -- if he can run the offense compentently and play 90% of the games, the team should be fine. But that's still an 'if.'

Yeah, I'm a Viking fan. Brett Favre is also probably a real nice guy, too. But do I have to be the only one to spell out that Favre retired after he got the touchdown record. No more, no less. He's afraid he's going to get hurt, and he wanted the touchdown record. Now this isn't a criticism, just that he's leaving a good team after a NFCCG choke because he's tired. Brett has gotten less scrutiny that anyone I've ever seen save GWB.

119 - How do you know it wasn't the wins record that he wanted? He passed Elway in that department early in the season, and that's got to be an important one, too, right?

James G #5:

The only one of the great QBs that seems to be Favre’s contemporary was Troy Aikman.

Aikman is not worthy of the epithet great or of being compared to Favre. He was the beneficiary of a great O-Line and defense and running back that allowed his team to dominate for 4-6 years depending one whether you want to include 91 and 96. He himself was nothing special, as shown by the sharp decline of the Cowboys after 1996.

Favre frequently carried the Packers along when there wasn't much else to the team, and his team was able to have several eras of greatness under his leadership (94-98, 01-04, 07). That Favre had but a single losing season is just astonishing.

I heard today that since Favre became a starter until now, the Packers have the highest winning percentage in the league during that span. Given that Favre only had one HOF caliber teammate, and he only played with Favre for six seasons, that's an interesting fact.

#121-- no kidding. I was thinking the same thing about Young. Without Rice and that great D, he sucked. Look at him in Tampa. Aikman couldn't hit the broad side of a barn without that OL. Nothing special? I'd go as far as to say that his utter horrible playing skills were such that if they'd had someone like Jeff George, they'd have at least 3 more SB rings. Damn Troy Aikman.

Will Allen:

Only Reggie White for the HOF from the entire Packer run during the Favre era?

You'd think at least a couple more guys might be worthy. Maybe an O-lineman somewhere, or a key defensive player like Darren Sharper.

Leroy Butler seems like a legitimate, if borderline, candidate.

#118: Oh, come on. Did you see Isbell play? Did you break down his film?

Saying a QB from the 1940s was the best pure passer of all time. I never saw him either, but here's my take: Maybe Isbell was better relative to his contemporaries than Favre, but that's because the vast majority of the football-playing world hadn't yet figured out this whole "passing game" thing. To say Isbell, who for the most part had to watch Don Hutson beat single man coverage and fling it, is a better passer than Favre, who had to make multiple reads and squeeze the ball in to a mediocre receiver against a zone blitz, is ludicrous.

So replace great with HOF. I was saying that Favre was the best of his era. I was just trying to find QBs to call his contemporaries so we could determine his era. After all, I'd say Elway & Marino came before him and Manning & Braday came after, even though he overlapped with both pairs, and Elway's best years actually ocurred after Favre was in the league.

I'll be shocked if Butler and Sharper ever get to the finalist stage, much less actual induction into the Hall of Fame. Reggie White was the only Hall of Famer that Favre ever had as a teammate. That isn't to say that Favre's teammates were mostly average or worse, as were, say, Tarkenton's, for the first 2/3 of his career. Favre just lacked Hall of Fame teammates in the manner of so many Hall of Fame qbs. The same could be said for Marino, and Elway for most of his career.

#108, thanks for finally mentioning the rate. It's ridiculous it took that long. He's very competitive with all of the greats in this area, and better than some. I thought FO readers prided themselves on things like this.

To a good many of the other posters:

Thanks for your relevant thoughts...the reality of a Favre-less NFL season is setting in and some of your posts got me a little emotional.

I honestly don't know what it's like to be a true Packers fan, a true NFL fan, without Favre as QB1 for Green Bay (which says a lot for Favre's iron-man status, given I'm 28), but I'm looking forward to it. I hope Rodgers has as much success post-Favre as Steve Young had post-Montana.

Go Pack Go!

Don Majkowski = Wally Pipp?