Just curious, I figured Shaun Rogers was a penetrating DT who was a good fit in a 4-3, not a hold-the-point-of-attack kind of DT suitable for the 3-4. Since I haven't watched much Lions football, maybe someone could clear that up for me.

I can't help but think the Lions got the better end here. Bodden for Rogers straight up works for me, seeing as how Bodden has proven himself to be a quality corner on a poor defense, and Rogers occasionally is brilliant but not consistent on a poor defense. But after throwing in a 3rd round draft choice, does that mean Cleveland has 1 draft choice on the first day? If so, Ouch.

So, the Bengals have ~$30 million under the cap. Even with Andrews' franchise number, and the resigning of Jones, Chatman, and Fanene... how does paying Rogers get them over the cap (and wouldn't put the Browns over?)

my best guess is that brandon mcdonald will start opposite eric wright in 2008. after seeing him work against Andre Johnson last year (yes, i know it was AJ's first game back from injury, and sage rosenfels isn't the most accurate qb), browns fans should be totally 100% cool with that, especially if corey williams and shaun rogers play up to their potential rushing the passer.

regarding draft picks, maybe phil savage isn't dying to spend a boatload of money on what may be a shallow class (outside of RB and OT).

Shaun Rogers is listed at 340 and (given his reputation for discipline on the matter) very possibly will show up to camp well above that. I didn't see enough of the Packers last year to be able to tell--would Corey Williams possibly convert to DE?

Even then, I just don't get this trade from the Browns' perspective. Leigh Bodden's a good young cornerback. Shaun Rogers is a chronically underachieving malcontent DT. How does Matt Millen manage to convince Phil Savage that he needs to give up draft picks to make this happen?

The official Bengals site is speculating that we could go after Jets DT Dewayne Robertson, as a replacement for Rogers. He was part of the initial Rogers trade rumor. Also, Titans DE Antwan Odom is coming to Cinci for an interview. With all the cap money we have, we'd better sign him...

Wow. Millen got one right.

Re: #7

Think about that for a second...

Yeah, it was a bad move, we just don't know it yet.

Maybe if Ford ever sold the team it would get better, but not until then.

Brandon McDonald and Daven Holly will battle for the 2nd CB spot in Cleveland. McDonald all but shut down Larry Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson in a couple games this year, so he has potential. Holly isn't amazing, but he can get the job done too.

Bodden was dogged by injuries last year and wasn't great. Maybe the Browns believe the injuries are such that he won't get back to that level again. It seems like a high price (although the DL was desperately in need of an upgrade, and even an unmotivated Rogers is better than the crap line they've been playing for two years), but if Bodden's best days are behind him, it's fine.

Plus, now the Browns don't have a pick in the first three rounds, so I don't have any particular rooting interest on day 1 anymore.

Apparently Savage has decided to pursue the Dan Snyder approach to NFL success. I suppose his success with the the reclamation of the OL (largely due to drafting Thomas) last year has convinced him this is a sound approach. Obviously, they could not expect to get a DL of talent similar to Thomas late in the second round, so they made these moves. On paper, the DL is now much improved.

But I don't get trading Bodden. Unless he was making noises about a new contract (he's signed through 2009 to a cheap contract) it just makes no sense to me. I also wonder how Bodden will fit into Detroit's scheme. He played man coverage almost exclusively in Cleveland but I don't think that's Detroit's style.

Rodger's can be a dominating player. If Romeo can push the right buttons this is a great deal for Cleveland. But I think that's pretty unlikely. Lots of other coaches have tried and failed to motivate Rogers. By the way, if he plays DE I would take that as a good sign. No way they move him to DE unless he gets himself in better shape.

I hope Crennel has his whippin' stick in shape, because according to BadgerT1000 and other Packer posters, Corey Williams isn't the most motivated player either.

I also agree with previous posters that it sure looks like Millen got the best of this deal, but that there must be something we're missing.

Corey Williams was a swing DT/DE for most of his career in GB. Inside he had some good pass rush ability as the '3-technique', outside he was more of a run stopper. Packers' starter Cullen Jenkins is similar -- a little bit better than Williams at both roles, but not by much.

I don't know how well that skill set translates into a 3-4 DE. My understanding of the 3-4 is that the linemen are supposed to be more stout and the LBs do the pass rushing. But Williams is decent player who should still have a little upside.

I'm pretty happy TT got a 2nd for Williams -- the Pack couldn't have kept him without blowing up the salary structure.

Re: 12, I think the other GB fans here were commenting mainly on this past season, when Williams seemed to make a 'business decision' to be more careful than aggressive in anticipation of his big payday. That stood out when Johnny Jolly and Colin Cole went on IR, leaving Williams the only experienced DT next to Pickett.

Otherwise Williams never seemed particularly unmotivated to me. Of course, *getting* the big payday has been known to induce laziness in some players.

1,

Cleveland has ZERO draft choices in the first 3 rounds, not one. But also the third round was moved back a day, so now the first day is technically only the first two rounds.

# 8 / #12 The Lions play a cover 2 DEF. What's required? A front four that can penetrate, a fast WLB to clean up and a MLB that can play middle field. What's not needed? Cover corners. What did Millen do? Trade a penetrating DT for a cover corner. Nice Matt.

i think it's entirely possible that bodden quietly asked savage to pursue a trade opportunity for him. remember, he was arrested by the cleveland police in front of his children. he was later acquitted of whatever it was he was charged with. i do think this is a possibility.

with the success the browns have had finding CBs and turning guys i've never heard of into players who don't suck in the NFL, i would give mel tucker, who has been our DB coach the past few years and is now the DCoordinator, the benefit of the doubt here. if he thinks bodden is replaceable, then i'll go ahead and blindly assume that bodden is replaceable.

Keep in mind that Bodden has been plagued by ankle injuries these past few seasons. That's the kind of thing that rarely goes away in the NFL. Bodden was never able to turn the corner.

Also, think of it from Savages perspective.

#1 Brady Quinn
#2 Corey Williams
#3 Shaun Rodgers

Who, in this draft pool, will be better for the Browns? You can't even name a quarterback, because Quinn at least has a year in Chud's (O-Cord) system.

All in all, Browns fans are treating those three players as our draft in the first three rounds...and we just managed to get a jump start on everyone.

We've got several players who are proven starters (maybe not All-pro's, but that's a rarity in itself) vice drafting and hoping you can find a serviceable player.

This is a far better decision by Savage/Crennel than the stop-gap that was Ted Washington.

I realize that Bodden is a FO sweetheart, and I have a lot of respect for the statistical models here, but I will say as a Browns fan this doesn't bother me that much. Bodden grades out well statistically, but watching him on film he seems to allow a lot of separation.

As for Rogers' past motivational troubles, that definitely is a concern.

For those who are wondering about the roles the new guys will have, Rogers will be the NT and Williams will play Orpheus Roye's old end spot in the base defense. In pass packages, Rogers will probably be subbed out with Williams moving inside.

The only thing that bothers me about all these big trades is I still don't see where we are going to get any pass rush. We need a pass rushing linebacker and it seems like there aren't really any out there.

APS

Feel the need to add a qualifier to an earlier poster's comment:

Lots of Detroit Lions coaches have tried and failed to motivate Rogers in the past.

APS

#18: The variable you left out of that equation is the salary cap impact of those players. Williams and Rogers are both going to be making a hefty chunk of change more than any 2nd or 3rd round draft pick. Right now the Browns can get away with it because they're not exactly swimming in high-priced, proven talent (except on the OL), but this move could come back to bite them in a few years when they have to re-sign their young playmakers and instead of having cheap 2nd/3rd year veterans manning holes on the team, they have 30-something players making $6 mil per year.

#19

Don't the Browns have Kamerion Wimbley as a pass-rushing linebacker? If the line ahead of him is absorbing double teams then he could rack up big numbers.

Here's the salary cap problem, if anyone still cares:

The Lions/Bengals tried to do the deal during business hours on Feb 29.

Rodgers was due a $1 million roster bonus at 12:01 Am on March 1st.

So the Lions thought they were no longer liable for the bonus.

But the Bengals also thought *they* wouldn't be liable for the bonus.

So the league office pulled the plug.

I'll let the Lions and Bengals fans comment further.

Click my link for the best explanation I've seen of how it all went down between the Lions, Bengals, and Browns. It turns out that Rogers was willing to delay the due date of his roster bonus for the Browns but not for the Bengals.

#21 So long as they are doing their job properly (tying up blockers so that the linebackers can make plays) it might not be so bad. In a draft that is bereft of D-line talent (for a 3-4 defense), no second and third rounder was likely to be as useful 2-3 years from now.

#22 - As for pass rushers, we do have KW as you indicate, but if we can't find another OLB to replace Willie, opposing lines will be able to cheat left to make life a little more difficult for him (whether it's fanning the O-line protection his way or via a TE/FB shifting to that side of the field).

The 3-4 requires two good pass rushing linebackers (DE/LB hybrids) to be particularly effective as well as a stout D-line.

On paper, it looks like the line is in place, now it's up to Savage to find another linebacker (either in free agency or via the draft.) If we can manage that, the Browns will be in good position to make a strong push into the playoffs this season.

My biggest concern as a Browns fan is that our secondary leaves a bit to be desired. Granted, a good pass rush will make those guys look much better, but against the better offenses, they will likely be exploited.