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07 Sep 2008
Obviously, the biggest injury of the day, possibly the biggest opening-day injury in NFL history.
Posted by: Aaron Schatz on 07 Sep 2008
207 comments, Last at
09 Sep 2008, 12:20pm by
And the suicide rate in the greater Boston area triples overnight!
Excuse me while I go set myself on fire.
possibly one of the biggest opening-day injuries of all-time
Opening Day 1991: Green Bay Packers vs. Randall Cunningham's knee. The end to an Eagles dynasty that never was.
There are rumors that it's a torn ACL. If so, that's sad news for him and I hope he can come back OK next year.
As for Patriots fans, we'll see how many of them get injured jumping off the bandwagon.
It's not a knee (at least not if you look at the NFL injury report listed by Fox) -- it's an ankle injury. What, has the BB injury report games already hit?
I personally had a partial PCL tear. If Will Carroll is right, the PCL tear can be minor (just a week or two) on up.
Even though I am a Colts fan, I am not interested in seeing #1 QB's go down, no matter whose team. The hit/injury reminded me of the injury in the Patriots first game last year against the Jets/Pennington. At least Randy Moss made Cassell look serviceable.
Miami fan here. No love for New England but I hope Brady's under center next week.
#4 That's the only reason I can remember the name of Bryce Paup to this day.
I bet the Pats have better backup options than Jeff Kemp and Ken Ryan.
I just want to know why no penalty was called. It was clearly a hit below the knee.
It looked like a torn ACL to me (shades of Carson Palmer 2 years ago).
I've always been disappointed that Bryce Paup never got popular enough that he could have a signature sack dance called "The Paup Smear".
I don't think it was quite that bad.
Moss agrees with you. He's shouting "dirty play" to anyone who will listen.
No penalty probably because a blocker was on top of him, so how much control does he have?
Pats fan here,
No way was that a dirty play. The guy on the ground was just trying to make a play, nothing more, nothing less.
I have to give everyone here that hated the Pats all these years much credit (So far...). I expected to see much worse. Even cd6! isn't that bad. Then again, Morganja hasn't chimed in yet. He was a vocal advocate for Knee-capping Brady last season.
I'm with Marko. I wouldn't mind seeing a few less Pats "fans" on the bandwagon.
Oh, my. Yahoo says Brady's year is over.
I don't suppose they have a Steve Young equivalent hiding on the bench.
Can we have our own thread on whether Brady's injury is worse than Manning's?
I'd guess that this knee injury is just a cover so that Brady can finally get that shoulder surgery that he's apparently needed since eighth grade ...
Man, now I look like a genius for making Drew Brees, not Tom Brady, the first QB selected in my fantasy league.
I hope Mr. Brady recovers fully and speedily from his injury. I will not, however, admit that he is a good quarterback. I don't have the capacity to do that.
My hat is off to the Patriots fans who rooted for an atrocious 5-11 team in 2000, and will continue to root for the Patriots even if Matt Cassel struggles to an 8-8 record this year.
It's the Madden Curse.
The curse moves to the next QB in the AFC EAST, since Favre can't be cursed for injury.
"I just want to know why no penalty was called. It was clearly a hit below the knee"
Make sense...who better than Pats fans to recognize dirty play.
Oh, I also hope that in Brady's absence, BB actually lets Maroney run the football. Seriously, the guy deserves a chance to play.
We'll know by Tuesday. Probably by tomorrow.
Belichick isn't going to waste time playing head games. If it's really this bad, he'll IR Brady right way to open the roster space.
So if we get to Wednesday and Brady isn't IR'd, then it's something they think he can come back from.
But looking that the AP picture in the Yahoo article, I gotta think Brady's done for the year. :(
"Hey, Daunte? It's Randy. I got a favor to ask..."
Peter King just said that Brady suffered a "serious" knee injury, and will be out a "significant" portion, if not all, of the season
Crappy for Pats fans and for NFL fans in general. I however won't go as far as Peter King to claim that Brady's injury, "has cast a pall over the entire league." It would appear that King is pricing lofts in Brady's ass for when his lease in Farve's is up.
Hope it's not an ACL. The league is clearly better when the best platers are in, so as a fan, I support that.
FYI, Ron Borges of WEII and Nate Silver of Yahoo are now both saying that sources confirm that Brady suffered an ACL tear.
The Bills aren't looking bad for the AFC East, unless Matt Cassel turns out to be the next....well, Tom Brady
#24: "I donâ€™t suppose they have a Steve Young equivalent hiding on the bench." Or, er, a Tom Brady equivalent?
It's a shame Brady finally recovers from the shoulder injury that had him listed on the injury report for 4 straight years and then this happens.
OMG they just said its worse the carson palmer's
"The Bills arenâ€™t looking bad for the AFC East, unless Matt Cassel turns out to be the nextâ€¦.well, Tom Brady"
If FO's wins projections for Green Bay were still high despite the switch from Favre to Rodgers, mainly because the Packers still have plenty of talent and Rodgers has shown he can manage games competently, shouldn't the Pats projections still be relatively strong? Brady's obviously a huge reason for New England's success, but it's not like the Patriots were Brady and a can of beans.
"One of the dirtiest plays I HAVE EVER SEEN"
JP Losman disagrees.
No, no, see, a Tom Brady equivalent comes off the bench to replace an above-average #1 pick. A Steve Young replacement comes off the bench to replace a multiple-time Super Bowl MVP winner.
If Brady is out for the season it doesn't necessarily mean that the PATS are out of playoff picture or even winning the division. The offense is still pretty talented and Cassell will come around, sooner rather than later. For the Patriots the defense will have to step up though, that will be the real test for them. Gee, a Patriot team carried by its defense how strange.
#27 - that's Michael Silver of Yahoo...Nate Silver is on some other website(s)
I never understood why a veteran team, a perennial SB contendor wouldn't have a veteran insurance policy at backup QB. For all of Belicheck's genius you can see there are 6-8 teams in the league with an experienced veteran QB that can win games off of the bench. I don't see any team wanting to trade their backup for fear of a similar thing happening. My immediate thought was they should try and swing a trade for Damon Huard but I heard Croyle limped off the field so that seems unlikely
Hope he's not hurt too bad, it'll be less fun not to be able to root against the Pats come playoff time
Given how well the Pats control the flow of injury info, I'm not buying the whole "out for the year" thing until Brady is placed on IR.
How long will it take Matt Cassell to learn to understand the defense's play calls being shouted to him over his radio? How will he be able to hear them over the thunderous sound of the legion of Pats bandwagon fans jumping off?
For Brady as a person, I certainly hope makes a full recovery. I'm more a fan of openly mocking a team I dislike, not ever wishing they get injured. I would much rather play against and beat Brady then play a team without him & then brag about it later as if being Matt Cassell proves anything.
For the Patriots as a team, well, guess you can now see how the logic of drafting a college backup QB works out for you. Good luck have fun.
Then you haven't seen much football, not even in the top thousand or so for me. I saw a lot of football in the fifties and the sixties and saw Butkus clothesline any number of receivers or running backs.
Truly though this was just a guy keeping moving toward the QB. Brady was planted and the direction of force was in a bad vector of force for Brady. He didn't throw his shoulder at it or grab and lever the leg. This was mostly just unlucky.
My two cents: the play was clean.
Will we see a 2 or 3 week back-up bump for Cassel? Will the dittoheads proclaim Cassel the next Brady? Will the Pats then waive Brady's one-legged future self? Will Randy Moss send uncouth text messages to Vince Wilfork because he's a dirty, dirty boy (as determined by the Goodell gestapo)?
Or will the Pats still be pretty good this year and back to top tier next year?
I'm a Bills fan . . . this probably makes the AFC a three pony race.
Exceptional players like Brady actually make the league less competitive from a parity standpoint, so in a sense, this improves the league. But it eliminates a star.
So, which backup the Pats will pick up if Yahoo is right?
DW is my new favorite commenter.
Tell us how you really feel DW?
I heard that if Tom Brady retires, that Randy Moss, Bill Belichick, and Dustin Pedroia will all hang em up in sympathy.
On a scale of 1 to 10, how emotionally devastating is this scenario?
road to Superbowl 43 just got smoother for Oakland Raiders.
It all starst tomororw night folks. Raiders going to beat up on Broncos. Mike Greenberg, Mike Golic (borth of godd raiders lineman Bob Golic), and Mike Ditka to clal game on ESPN
No Supe for you, Pates fans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is now the greatest thread ever.
I hate it, as a Lions fan watching teams play good football always makes me happier. I loved Brady as well and I hate to see him out for the season and its a huge blow for the Patriots, however much of it is true (aren't all knee injuries reportedly the worst to ever happen when they are first reported, it seems like it...)
Do the Patriots make a move at QB? Is Kevin O'Connell not a viable option...
You're channeling Bill Belichick, right? I get it, that's pretty cute.
Re: 18. No, it's still stupid. If you want Drew Brees you can probably get him later in the draft than the place that Tom Brady goes.
So...Seneca Wallace and Charlie Frye for Randy Moss?
Oops! You're right. I guess that since I was just reading Nate Silver's site this morning I got him and Michael Silver mixed up.
DW is my new best friend.
The 1972 Dolphins lost Superbowl VI. Then they lost Bob Griese. Then they went undefeated and won Superbowl VII.
I'm just sayin...
As a Tulane alum, I have to agree.
Still wearing my Green Wave hat, how about Matt Forte's TD?
Not a Patriots fan, but shouldn't it be a penalty anytime a quarterback gets hit on the knee or below, while the quarterback is in the pocket? So many QB injuries seem to happen that way. Take "intent" out of the interpretation of the rule, penalize it anytime it happens.
If this really is serious (and to echo the sentiments of others, I hope not despite being a Jets/Giants fan), wouldn't bringing Gutierrez back make the most sense? I don't think anyone picked him up after the Pats dropped him. I suppose Culpepper might be waiting by the phone, but I would think he would not be ready for a few weeks.
I feel like doing nothing but whine. The Lions look even more like the Lions than I imagined they would. Then Brady goes down for the year pretty much killing my fantasy team as well.
Then I feel bad for whining because I realize it's just a game and I'm not the one with a shredded knee.
I think that I could die a happy man if I could hear raiderjoe and DW talk football for an hour over a six pack of Sierra Nevada.
For what it's worth ... I couldn't call the hit dirty. Like the guy who hit him said ... when you're trying to make a play and have a 230 pound man on top of you, you can't really pick and choose your spots. This isn't flag football.
Re 31 and 9: "One of the dirtiest plays I HAVE EVER SEEN"
The injury to Brady is a real shame; I'm sorry to see any player hurt and, when that player is a great one, the season is somewhat diminished. Even as a fan of a rival team, I want to beat the Patriots because my team played better, not because the Patriots were hampered by an injury.
After reading this thread, I found the video on you tube. I didn't see it as a dirty play. Brady has the ball, the defensive player is trying to get to him from a position on the ground, and the rusher contacts Brady's leg. It did not look vicious or intentional (which would be my understanding of "dirty"). Football is a very violent game and these kinds of things happen (all too frequently in my view, I wish I could propose a reasonable solution.)
However, Rich Conley points out that it is "a hit below the knee." Although I have been known to disagree with him and I think he would admit that he sometimes sees the game through Pats colored glasses, Rich is generally pretty well-informed and astute. I don't know the rulebook well enough to interpret this incident. Is a hit below the knee automatically penalized? Is it always regarded as a dirty play? Does this apply to attempting to tackle a running back or block on a runback, etc.? I'd welcome more information on this issue.
In the meantime, let's all hope that the injury turns out to be less severe than these reports suggest.
Oh, well, the post #31 to which I was responding has disappeared, so now my response to the current #31 seems incoherent. I wish that when posts were deleted, every other post wouldn't move up in the number queue.
DW's reign was a short one i see. This is one epic thread, though. Latest news is Chris Simms will workout with the Pats. I'd say that would count as landing on your feet, eh?
Count me in on the "not dirty" crowd, especially after seen some wire service photos. Looks like Pollard was trying to tackle Brady (you can see Pollard's arms reaching out as he's presumably trying to grab Brady's other leg) and the ball was clearly still in Brady's hand, but his head/shoulder caved in Brady's knee.
Much different than Lee Flowers intentionally rolling untouched into Brady's ankle long after the ball was released back in the 2001 AFC Championship Game, or KvO's cheapshot on Carson Palmer.
re: 46 No, the league is really QB friendly so their value is a lot greater. The top 7 scorers last year were all QBs.
Keep laughing guys but with the Chargers going down today I think the Raiders will beat the Marshall-less Broncos and I will raise an Australian lager in salute with Raiderjoe as the Oakland Raiders sit all alone atop the AFC West (for at least one week).
And seroiusly the patriots are not going to stand pat with Cassell are they?. I think 8-8 is too optimistic, the friggen CHIEFS got within a TD of them.
If Brett Favre had played things a little cooler, he'd be starting for the Patriots in two weeks...
OK, now I'm channeling Peter King. It isn't a good feeling.
#45 is hysterical if you imagine OSU coach Mike Gundy saying it.
Wow.. hard to believe this is actually happening.
I started rooting against the Patriots a couple years ago and joined the ranks of the full-throated haters after Spygate last year, but I always disliked that that put me in the company of people rooting for Brady to get kneecapped - I hope those people feel as bad as they ought to. As a football fan, it sucks to see one of the best players in the league go down, even if he plays for a team I dislike.
From what I saw, it was a clean play. Pollard was taking a bead on the quarterback and got pushed down by a blocker, Brady stepped into a throw in a way that put his knee right in line with Pollard's helmet, and that's it.. just one of those unfortunate things that happens in football.
DW, you need to calm down. Firstly, nobody died. It's football. It's not the end of the world. Secondly, your team has won three Super Bowls in the last 7 years and Brady has always had remarkable luck with injuries. As an Eagles/McNabb fan, I know how you feel, but I can't feel too much pity for you, and I can say for sure that your reaction is more than a little over-the-top.
As for the Pats, Belichick is a good enough coach that I think they'll still be a playoff contender, but their Super Bowl hopes are gone.. they're probably a 9-7 type team at best with Cassel at QB. They did win today, but only by 7 points, against what is expected to be one of the worst teams in the league. It might be a long year for Patriots fans.
Last year, I correspondend with the NFL regarding the rule prohibiting hitting below the knee. Here's the rule:
A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him.
In my view, the play wasn't dirty, but it probably should have been flagged.
And now that comment #s have been changed it's less funny.
It's a shame we won't see the Patriots lose their division this year with Tom Brady behind center. I'm going to miss watching him whine and complain to the refs after every incompletion.
Personally for him I hope its not painful and won't have any lasting effect on his health.
I want to see him behind center losing every week.
By the way, since Patriot fans don't know the rules, it's not a penalty if a blocker blocks the defender into the quarterback's legs.
Of course I'm surprised that the Patriots didn't get the benefit of the call anyhow.
I'm definitely going to miss all the Patriot fans who will suddenly disappear. But luckily they will be coincidentally replaced by the exact same number of annoying Cowboy fans.
Unless of course some other team starts to look like they will win the Super Bowl.
It's really a shame that Raiderjoe's comment, which is up to his usual standards, was lost in DW's insanity. Even more of a shame that so many comments were lost =(
Bad--being out for the season.
Good--this meaning you get to spend more time with Gisele Bunchen. When you pretty much have to be laying down.
Wow, this thread is being moderated rather, uh, aggressively. I wrote a long and, I thought, intelligent comment and asked a pertinent question (which Ben Riley answered in 65, for which I thank him), but because I referenced DW's post as part of it, it's gone...gone...gone. And before I had a chance to copyright it!
Sorry kids. If you keep racism out of your crazy messages, they stay. If not, they all get deleted.
Urk! Bill, the juxtaposition of my comment and yours makes it look as if I'm the guilty party on the racism charge. I can't see any way possible that this is the case. If so, please e-mail me off the thread and clarify. If not, please excuse my sensitivity to a coincidental happenstance of timing.
I saw one DW thrad. he didn't sseem to have all his marbles.
I just watched the hit against Brady again. I am revising my previous comment: good no-flag by the refs. And Randy Moss is way out of line.
"Randy Moss is out of line"
Ben Riley = Joe Buck?
I kid because I love ... wait ...
And did we have to punt DW? I like CAPS.
See, now all the fun is ruined. Why did you have to COME AT HIM BRO?
Given the definition above, it could have been flagged, but I don't think it can be called dirty. The rusher was knocked down, and he is trying to make a play since he's close. I also don't think he was blocked into Brady, so a flag was a possibility. In any event, who cares? Pretty irrelevant to me as a Pats' fan, as the result -- which is definitely a part of the game -- is the issue going forward.
It didn't seem as bad while watching the game(more awkward/knee sprainish than Willis McGehee U of Miami FUBAR), but the pix make it look bad. Big challenge for the Pats if he's gone, and the D will indeed need to grow up fast.
If the Pats indeed go 8-8, it will be interesting to see if the Stan-ganjas of the world say, 'hey, Brady might be an OK player,' because you know if the Pats go 11-5 they will be peddling their 'system quarterback' BS for all they are worth. Of course, it should be hard for anyone (even long-time Pats' fans like I)to cry for/over Brady, who woke up rich this morning with Giselle, and is getting a year off to be rich with Giselle...
"Mike Golic (borth of godd raiders lineman Bob Golic)"
Can it get better than this?
"No Supe for you, Pates fans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Clean hit. I feel bad, since I remember seeing Joey T. go down way back when. I don't have anything against Brady for beating the crap out of the 'Skins last year. Most everyone else did.
Its the FO jinx!
#76 That stings. Randy Moss committed a DISGUSTING act.
It's almost as if in 2001 Brady made a deal with the devil, plus there's the whole super-bowl loser's curse.
Sorry Pat's fans.
So Cassel? Serviceable Fantasy QB?
I like to think this is payback for being the annoyingly cocky leader of a team who got busted last year for cheating. Karma, folks, karma.
Even though I dislike the Patriots and all they stand for (yes, I'm still bitter about SB 39), I never like to see a player go down with such a horrific injury. Here's hoping Brady will make a full recovery and will be back to annoy the rest of the league again.
He better be. After today, I don't really trust Carson Palmer (Baltimore D nonwithstanding).
That is a 3-QB, 6-pt per pass TD league, btw.
I'm surprised it took more than 80 posts for the word "karma" to appear in this thread.
But only 43 posts for the words "borth" and "godd" to be used.
A total side note: if you thought BB was superstitious before, wait until you see how he acts now. This was the first time in 56 games that BB did not put Brady on the injury report.
Well, I'm surprised you think everyone is a douchebag.
I absolutely HATE the Patriots, but I always hate to see a player go down. Lose? Fine by me. Humiliated on the field? Awesome. But hurt... that one is personal, and it's just a game, after all.
Oh well. At least now I have some leverage in my fantasy league - I picked up Cassel in a hurry.
I'm so sick of all the media and their man crush on Brady. It's like their dog died. I swear the media always has their knee pads on for Brady. Put Brady on another team, and he's just an average player.
If it were Manning, I'd feel genuinely sorry because he is an all-around nice guy. But given Brady's personality and the circumstances of his team, I'll leave it at a caring "Oh, that sucks." Doesn't mean I'm happy he's hurt. It just means I'm not sad.
Okay, the surprise to me is that with so many posts, nobody chose to compare the stats (at least those in PFP 2008).
Brady=346 of 536 (64.5%) 4415 yds, 37 TD's & 10 INTs.
Cassel=299 of 478 (62.5%) 3751 yds, 27 TD's, & 23 INT's.
I don't know how that computes to wins/losses, but I will say that the 13-3 PFP projection goes to 10-6--prob still win the division, but has to play the #6 seed in the WC round. Seeing that the Colts lost!! tonight, could we see both Indy and the Pats on the road in the divisional round of the playoffs for the first time in (it seems like) forver? (This is assuming that the Jags would win the AFCS)
The NFL Network (via NFL.com) is now also reporting that Brady is out for the season.
Like, it sucks for the Patriots' chances of doing well this year, and it hurts Brady. But a whole lot of football players go through a whole lot worse. This happens to Mike Brown basically every year. It happens to guys who are trying their best just to make a roster. As NFL careers go, Brady has been lucky.
I don't think he deserves any special sympathy just for being an important player. Like any other player to get an injury like this, we just hope he rehabs well, and hope to see him back when he's ready again.
The 2006 playoffs saw the #3 seed Colts and #4 seed Patriots both host games on that divisional weekend. SD and Baltimore got the byes but both lost their first playoff games.
Seeing that the Colts lost!! tonight, could we see both Indy and the Pats on the road in the divisional round of the playoffs for the first time in (it seems like) forver?
Remember the 2006 playoffs?
Re: 96 - Amen to that
Sort of lost in the shuffle (and not as bad either), but Vince Young tore his MCL, but looks to miss only 2 to 4 weeks.
My real post in a second, but first...
What is this mysterious "DW" post that everyone keeps referring to that I can't seem to find. I found one DW post, that seems pretty innocuous. Did he say something racist?
"No way was that a dirty play. The guy on the ground was just trying to make a play, nothing more, nothing less."
Except the rules explicitly disallow hitting the QB below the knee.
101: He said a number of things, some of which were so patently ridiculous that they must have been trolls. (Like, comparing this to world-scale tragedies in which thousands of people died, etc.) Also, everything was in allcaps.
I hereby give up my "BOOM!I'mChrishHanshen" user name, and officially call "dibs" on "borth of godd" as my new user name.
91: Huh? I think no such thing. You are reading something into my comment that just isn't there.
And there should be a special page for deleted comments. Kind of a penalty box thing. And you have to be a premium subscriber to get access to it.
And I should get a free premium subscription for coming up with this idea.
"I also donâ€™t think he was blocked into Brady, so a flag was a possibility. "
He definitely wasn't blocked into brady. He was blocked into the ground, then while lying on the ground, lunged at Brady's leg. It was a textbook infraction of the rule, and should have been called.
I think he gets fined.
OK, my thoughts as a Pats fan:
1). The hit: I don't think it was "dirty", in the sense that I don't think there was any malicious intent behind it. I think the defender was making a second effort to get to the QB, and was trying to play cleanly. However, according to my understanding of the rules, it should have been flagged. The defender was pancaked by Sammy Morris and had Morris lying on top of him. He muscled his way up to Brady, reached out, and grabbed his leg below the knee. He was not blocked into Brady in any way (Morris was still draped over his legs), but made an intentional effort to contact the QB below the knee while his feet were on the ground. Now, if Brady had been trying to run away, then it's a shoestring tackle. But instead he threw the ball, and there went his knee. Under the letter of the rules, it should have been flagged. After all, Wilfork was flagged, and fined, for lying motionless and having Chad Pennington (or was that Clemmens) trip over him...
2). On the backup situation: I don't see that you can criticize the Pats for not having a proven backup. There are maybe twenty five, or possibly as few as twenty, viable, starting caliber QB's in the league, and (barring Wade Phillips-level ineptitude), all those guys are already starting. Except in very rare cases (e.g. the Cardinals), the teams where the dropoff from starter to backup is not large are the teams whose starters aren't very good (i.e. the Bears). You simply can't keep two QB's of Brady's caliber on the roster together. For all the griping about Cassel, he's probably not much worse than the backup on nearly all the teams, and may even be slightly better than some starters. He was certainly outplaying Brodie Croyle until Croyle came out. I'm sure the Pats would love to have a Steve Young type player behind Brady, but there aren't any. I personally would rather have Cassel under center than Culpepper--at least Cassel doesn't think he's better than he is. The only guy that I can think of that would have been great to bring in as a backup would have been Simms...but he was only cut recently and at this point, even if he were brought in, Cassel would still have a leg up on him for knowing the offense. I can't think of any other good backups the Pats could have acquired, except for maybe Pennington (if they had been precient).
3). What should they do: Get on Simms phone, if he's still available (I'm not sure if he is), and hope Cassel can hold the fort in the meantime. And if you can't get Simms, get Gutierrez back.
4). Pats chances: The AFCE just got a lot more intersting. The Jets looked better than I expected today, the Bills looked very good (as I did expect, though I had people disagreeing with me), and even the 'Phins didn't look completely inept.
However, I like the Patriots playoff chances even without Brady. They still have what is probably an easy schedule. They have loads of offensive talent around Cassel. He has the "new QB without film" thing that will help him for about four games or so. Their defense looks tolerable (not amazing, but tolerable).
And in a sense, I will have more fun watching them this year. It sucks that Brady is out. But with Brady in there, I thought they should win almost every game. Now the pressure is off, so to speak. They can go 10-6 and squeak into the playoffs and I'll be happy. Pats fans (and bandwagoneers) have been incredibly spoiled by having one of the best QB's in the league. Now we'll see more close, exciting games, and every win is something to be excited and proud about, rather than something they were entitled to. Every loss will somehow be less crushing.
Still, I hope the knee isn't as bad as reported...
Its my fault. Just before it happened, I told the guys I was watching the game with, someone's gonna take out his knee.
Reiss is now reporting that the Pats are bringing in Chris Simms and Tim Rattay tomorrow for tryouts...
ESPNews scroll has Tim Rattay, FO Favorite Chris Simms coming in tomorrow for auditions.
Actually, I think Brady was jinxed by, for the first time in the last five years or so, not being on the injury report. The magic of the "Probable, Shoulder" was dispelled...
Generally agree with your post, but one minor quibble. Saying that Pollard should have been flagged by citing Wilfork's example is kind of faulty logic, I think. The Wilfork play (if I remember it) was one of the more ticky-tack calls I'd seen in a while. I'd call that as what it was (a call that would have been better off not being made) rather than trying to use it as a reference point for penalties in the future.
And I remember reading once that the pick used on Brady came down to him and Tim Rattay. Irony can be so ironic ...
The one thing that puzzles me is that Brady walked off the field. He was walking gingerly, but if he had torn his ACL, would he have been able to walk off? I don't remember Carson Palmer walking off. Maybe the shock had a numbing effect, but still. Is there any chance he might be back for the playoffs?
106: Were the Pats looking at Pennington? I was out of town during training camp and didn't hear anything about it, but was hugely in favor of the move (I had a bad feeling about the foot - not about this). It's water under the bridge, especially since Pennington probably wanted to be a starter, but man...
But, as MJK says, the world's tiniest silver lining is that I can downgrade my expectations to the point where 1) a playoff berth and 2) a SB win by any team not spelled J-E-T-S will constitute a successful season.
Plus, there'll be lots of room on that bandwagon...
Drew Bledsoe wishes to come out of retirement now?
Speaking of the 2006 playoffs, I just had a frightening thought.
Imagine if this had happened in week one of 2006: Matt Cassel throwing to Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell. Scary.
With all the talk that the Patriots are going to pay the price for not investing in a proven veteran backup qb, their investment in a top-class receiver corps could be seen as a pretty shrewd insurance policy in itself.
113: Wilfork's play was a lot more questionable than this one. Losman had already unloaded the ball, and Wilfork wasn't forced into Losman. He only made contact with Losman's knee because he put his elbow out in front of his helmet to reach further.
Obviously, one could say that he probably couldn't see whether the ball had been unloaded or not, or you could say that putting your hand out in front of your face is a reflex. But the play was definitely somewhat questionable, whereas the Chiefs safety was definitely trying to make a clean tackle on the guy who had the ball.
Re: #110, #111
Irony. IIRC, Rattay was the the other QB that deceased Pats QB coach Dick Rehbein was tasked to scout along with Brady.
MJK don't you think saying Cassell outplayed Croyle is damning with faint praise? Also lost in the shuffle here is that Brodie Croyle and Vince Young my 2 Loser League QB's destined to take me to the top (or the bottom) are out for 2-4 weeks ruining my season. DONT COME AT ME BRO!
113: It depends, I guess, but I tore my ACL 4 years ago and I was able to walk (also very gingerly) afterwards. It just felt like my knee had no lateral stability, but if I was careful I could put weight on it.
One of my college roommates tore his ACL but didn't even know about it for a year. When the doctors finally got in there and looked at it, they had to replace his with one from a cadaver.
Also Hines Ward doesn't have in ACL in one of his legs.
I'm not a doctor but I think internet speculation trumps informed medical opinion any day.
What is amazing to me is to hear Patriot fans who obviously watch no other football than the Patriots discuss what is and isn't a penalty.
While they may be correct in that play might have been a penalty for Brady or Manning or Favre, it definitely is never a penalty for any other quarterback.
This play happens almost at least once every game and it is never called a penalty, unless it happens to one of the superstars.
Morris lying on the guys back is pretty much the definition of blocked into the quarterback, unless you can come up with some other plausible explanation that would have Morris lying on a defenders back within arms reach of the quarterback.
I just watched it 9 consecutive times and can't see how anyone could possibly look at that and not see Morris, besides grabbing Pollard's helmet and holding like a maniac, push the guy as he lunges at Brady.
I'm mean, honestly, what do you call all the contact that Morris is making with Pollard if its not 'blocking'?
To clarify, there were two personal fouls called on Wilfork recently for hitting QB's low.
One was against the Bills, and did look a bit dirty, except that people with blue-and-silver tinted glasses could argue that Wilfork was blocked into Losman. Still, as he was coming down, well after Losman had thrown the ball, Wilfork put out his forearm and slammed Losman below the knee. This knocked Losman out and brought in Trent Edwards (so maybe it worked out OK for the Bills)? I wasn't referring to that one.
The other one was against the JETS, and was a bit ridiculous. It was during the Pennington-Clemmens controversey, and whichever QB was in (I forget which one) got injured. Wilfork was pancake blocked, just as the Chiefs defender was in this game, only he didn't try to get up and remained motionless until well after the whistle was blown. However, after throwing the ball, the Jets QB wheeled around and took a step towards the huddle/sideline? and tripped over Wilfork's motionless, prone body. He somehow managed to injure his knee and the other QB came in, yet Wilfork somehow was called for roughing the passer.
I don't remember if this was after the Losman hit, but it could be that the refs had decided he was dirty and were looking for an excuse to call things on him.
My point is that if a flag is thrown for lying motionless and getting tripped over, then it should have been thrown against the Chiefs in this occasion. But it doesn't really matter. It may have negated Moss's fumble, and the Pats may have scored another 3-7 points, but Brady's knee would be just as blown.
Jeff George might be available.
I heard Brett Favre is demanding a trade ...
Getting blocked into the QB is getting pushed down into him. If you're already lying on the ground, I don't see how you can argue that someone is "blocked" into something. The fact that Morris was lying on top of Pollard implies that Pollard must have been making some effort to move towards Brady--otherwise, he would have remained where he was, lying motionless on the ground about four feet in front of Brady with a 200-and-something running back lying on top of him.
Interestingly, the Kevin Faulk one-game suspension kind of rears its head here. We can't say for sure, but there is a fair chance that Faulk might have been in for that play as pass protection instead of Morris if he wasn't suspended. Faulk is known for his pass protection, and generally doesn't upend players the way that Morris did to Pollard. So if Faulk had been in, Brady might have been hit completely differently, or not at all.
For want of a nail...
Looking at it again in slo-mo I see Pollard struggling through Morris wrestling moves that he apparently thinks is pass blocking, and then driving towards Brady. While he is making a move towards Brady, Morris again contacts him from behind, pushing him.
One might make the claim that Pollard would have hit Brady under the knee even if he wasn't pushed by Morris, but that isn't the rule.
Morris clearly makes contact, pushing Pollard towards Brady. The rule states that there is no penalty if the defender is blocked into the Quarterback.
It certainly was not a dirty play. It's not even an illegal play.
It's simply another very common unfortunate play that results in an injury in the NFL.
The Patriots, and Brady, have been incredibly fortunate to have avoided serious injury for so long.
Their luck was bound to run out sooner or later. It's unfortunate for Brady, but it also an opportunity for another player who is either a backup or not even on a roster right now.
But I also don't remember even the tiniest amount of sympathy for Delhomme last year when his elbow pretty much had the same injury.
Which reminds me, Testaverde is still available and you might be able to trade for Carr, if you have a spare ham sandwich.
From the way I saw it, it looked like Pollard was trying to get up (at which point he would have hit Brady completely legally, since he made contact before Brady released the ball), and the only reason he remained low was because Morris was on his back pushing him down. While he may not have been pushed into the quarterback, it is true that the only reason the hit was of even questionable legality was because he was being blocked.
I have to think also that his foot injury prevented him from making the last split second shuffle that he was so good at in avoiding rushers. Maybe without the pain in his foot he shuffles to his right 12 inches and gets the throw off cleanly.
One injury seems to always lead to a worse injury if its not allowed to heal.
Questions regarding the legality of the hit could likely be answered very easily if only we had more video footage of the teams. Maybe one of the teams was videotaping the plays? Wait nevermind, that would be illegal and nobody would do that ;)
This reminds me of Joe Montana: champion in '88 and '89, MVP in '89 and '90, then out for all of '91.
My day would be empty without raiderjoe. I'm just dully reading various intelligent comments, then I get to the first line of a raiderjoe comment and I get to laugh out loud. Thank you, raiderjoe, for bringing joy to my day.
102/107: If you were watching the game, you probably saw clearer replays than I did. But the passage "It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him" has relevance: I'm guessing to a ref watching that play at full speed, Pollard was blocked into him (the blocker was on his back). He may be fined (though I don't think he will), but I can understand the ref not calling a penalty.
I will finish the season with more TD passes than Tom Brady.
The only peculiarity is that the Patriots are usually so cryptic about injuries, and yet this has been leaked all over the place. No chance that this is a head game, right?
133 made me laugh out loud
Wow, where to start?
A lot of reasonable comments and debate, and sorry I missed DW's rant. (Isn't DW the sister of the cartoon character Arnold the Aardvark? Anybody else have little kids? whatever.)
Though I prefer to think of TB's mindset in a month or so, after surgery and the pain eases, as he spends 12 hours a day in bed... and he's dating a supermodel, in case you didn't know. Who knows, enough of that liffe of liesure and he'll gladly retire by April. "Damn, Coach, do you realize what I've been missing with all these 90 hour weeks in season?!?! And best of all, far fewer contusions after practice!" I say, as long as he's happy....
And as for the Week 1 injury that casts a pall over the whole NFL, didn't a Bills TE (Kevin Everett?) get carried off on a backboard last year--for a day or so most people thought he was a vegetable for life. That bummed me out a lot worse than this. And, best of all worlds, the man walked out for their Week 17 game. Brady will too.
Good luck, Pats fans. With most people picking the AFC champ to come from NE, SD, Jax, or Indy, you're still in the lead, record-wise, and have the easiest sked.
And speaking as a Yankees fan who lived in/around NYC for 31 years, I bet most real Pats fans would welcome a little lightening of the bandwagon by the fair-weather fans. Get rid of those jerks and only the real fans remain. Nothing worse than living in NYC in 1986 and suddenly the world is filled with new Mets and Giants "fans" who, previously, were not 100% sure which ball was white and spherical, but suddenly were willing to shout their lungs out when discussing sports. Yuck.
Finally, borth of godd--you are truly inspiring. I am not worthy, I am not worthy.
(after watching the play again in full speed and slow speed)
If the play had gone differently, Pollard would be praised for his effort. He was blocked entirely into the ground, but lying on the ground with a blocker on top of him, he's struggling to get up to try move toward the QB.
But...admittedly, it's the sort of play that I often see called a penalty. Not always, but frequently.
And frequently such a penalty leads the announcers to embark on a discussion about how the league tries to protect QBs, with the former lineman in the booth regretting such rules.
Wow, just had a surreal moment reading that Chris Simms is being contacted by the Chiefs, the Titans, and the Pats. One of these teams is not like the others....
What choice would any sane man make? Not sure, but the one-year choice is clear. Maybe he wins 12-13 games in Boston and gets a decent contract from another team next year. But if he goes to the Chiefs, who are not that good, or the Titans who have a lot invested in their own disappointing QB, I think it's more than his spleen that was damaged two years ago.
Also, didn't Rivers play through a torn ACL in last year's AFC championship game?
I think Raiderjoe is going to become a regular. On every single column. Which I actually find acceptable since he appears to be channeling Ed Orgeron.
Regarding Brady - meh.
That's right - 'meh'. Recuperate, etc etc. see you next year...Next!
Chris Simms, huh? Well, he certainly looks like a QB. Maybe that's enough. He got a raw deal in TB, but I truly don't think you Pats fans are going to enjoy The Chris Simms Experience. The Experience, as I recall, involves a lot of heartbreaking INTs.
On the injury play, maybe it's a flag, but it certainly didn't look like a malicious act, just a football play.
It's a tough break, but let's not elevate it to a national tragedy. I don't know why New England heartbreak is supposed to be more poignant the the rest of the nation's.
@124: Sorry, MJK - but Wilfork is a dirty, dirty, nasty small-minded beast of a player. I've seen the calls against him, as well as other plays where he's tried (and thankfully, failed) to do the same. He doesn't give a rat's plaguey arse about sportsmanship or his opponents' health or career. I'd say the same of him even if he were on my Vikings' D-line.
Which he is, thankfully, not.
I wonder if Daunte Culpepper is re-thinking retirement yet...
DW is the abbreviated name for cartoon superhero Dark Wing Duck.
Warning! Crazy Conspiracy-Like Speculation Follows! (But not Spygoat!)
Ok, I'm not at all serious about this, just mulling it "aloud" to find out where it's impossible.
Let's assume that Brady was hurt before the game. He didn't play in preseason because he was hurt, so that's not far-fetched.
Let's say Brady hurts his knee in the off-season, while shooting a cologne ad. He claims his injury is the already injured foot, but its really the knee. As he doesn't play or do much else in the offseason, or preseason, who would know?
We know Rivers played through a game with a torn up knee, so its possible to suit up and play, even if its not a good long term plan. So Brady does the same, waiting for the first available play to "get hurt".
Now he's been hurt in a game, and NE can get insurance for his large salary. (At least, I think they can.) Tom helped out his buddies in management and ownership and they'll be sure to remember it. Kraft et al don't have to eat the biggest team salary for a guy who really was out for the season sometime in June.
Aside from the raving lunacy aspect, where does the theory go wrong?
Well it couldnt have happened to a more deserving guy. The pats were the luckiest team in the league, and by luck i mean cheating, dirty and fully lacking of any modicum of class.
Let me return the favour of being classless by gloating like a kid in a candy store.
I look forward to the Pats going at best 9-7 and getting destroyed numerous times.
I don't get the "BB is playing head games!" talk. The IR will tip his hand, as will something as dumb as the PUP list. In two or three days it will be clear what is going on with Brady's knee. Looking at the replay a few times on NFL Sunday Ticket, it looked like a sprained knee to me, until I saw how much pain Brady was in.
What could Belichick gain by exaggerating his QB's injury? Driving up the price of back-up and free agent quarterbacks in the league?
Anyway, it's not like Belichick is the team doctor or the only person with access to information. A leak could have come from anywhere. The person who leaked it, if that's what happened, probably has a "we're screwed, what's there to lose?" attitude about it.
145: Comments like that are why players like Rivers and Merriman should sit down when they know they are hurt. Six months from now you and your ilk will wonder aloud why DeMarcus Ware or James Farrior or Adalius Thomas aren't playing. "Merriman can play with a torn ligament!" will be bouncing through the echo chamber.
"But the play was definitely somewhat questionable, whereas the Chiefs safety was definitely trying to make a clean tackle on the guy who had the ball."
Yaguar, whether or not the ball is there is irrelevant. The rule clearly states you can not hit the QB in the knees.
145: Oh, and it goes wrong because if Brady really was hurt as you hypothesize, then he would be suceptible to another injury or making his hypothetical pre-existing injury worse and possibly career-threatening. Do you really think a player would take that risk with a wink-wink deal between him and an owner. There's a reason there's a players union.
Brady gets handsomely paid anyway, there's no reason to look for a bonus from Kraft. And if he were to get a career-ending injury he would be cutting off his income; the Pats would just cut him and wouldn't be obligated to pay him a whole lot.
If it was a BB thing, he'll play this week. I know its farfetched, it's just that it's the Mangenius.
@149 - There's really no reason to be snotty. Weren't there enough disclaimers in the post for you? No way you can entertain what I present as hypothetical without being strident?
By the way, I don't think your reasons are as compelling as you think they are. The player's union allows signed contracts to be largely voided on the convenience of management and won't address concussion injuries. What are they supposed to do in the situation I speculated on? You seem to be assuming Brady would be pressured to come up lame.
As for extra injury risk being a paramount decision factor, I'm not sure why it would be. Guys play with very dangerous medical conditions constantly. Why? Because they want to.
Here are (to me at least) more compelling reasons against:
Brady is a football player, and wants to play and compete. Nothing in his past suggests otherwise.
The play on which he was injured looked similar to plays that have injured other players.
The look of pain on his face appeared genuine.
And finally, the Patriots only had Matt Cassel on the bench. If they had foreknowledge I'd say they would have worked much harder to get a better backup.
Brady should follow Tiger's lead during his free time and alternately rehab his knee/make babies with supermodel.
147: A torn ACL is a type of knee sprain! A sprain is simply something gone wrong with a ligament.
The best backup QB in the league by a mile is Sage Rosenfels. For a first round pick, the Pats could still be Superbowl contenders . . .
re: Wilfork posting...
True enough. I flashed on Losman as soon as I saw the play. Of course, the defense was given a 15 yard penalty on that play...
You know, it's posts like RoTs' that make me remember why I like baseball fans so much more than football fans.
Firstly, Pollard didn't hit Brady in the knee - he ended up wrapping him up around the ankle. Secondly, what the rule states is that you can not deliberately hit the QB below the knees. If, as actually happened, you hit the QB in the knees because you're trying to get up and tackle him above the knees but an opposing player blocks you in the back and knocks you back down as you lunge causing you to make contact below the knees, that's a different story.
In any case, irrespective of whether a penalty should have been called on the play, it's pretty clear Pollard was not trying to injure Brady, so for Pats fans to call it a "cheap shot" is pretty unfair.
155: "The best backup QB in the league by a mile is Sage Rosenfels."
And in a fortnight's time, it could well be Matt Schaub.
Well as you know, while it may not be an intentional cheap shot, the Patriots and their fan base take the rules very seriously. Or something.
Look at it this way, Pats fans. If the Pats continue to play like they did yesterday, or in the preseason, they weren't going any farther than the first round of the playoffs anyway.
Why not use this time to sit back and watch and appreciate the majesty of other, much better teams, instead? Like, say, the undefeated Pittsburgh Steelers? There's room on the Lamar Woodley bandwagon, just hop right on.
I extended my sympathy to the Pats fans in the Game Discussion when word broke but after reading some of the comments above the well is running dry.
Look, barring having the defense play with shock collars so that the ref can jolt anyone who gets close to the qb injuries are going to happen. And among the litany of hits taken by a qb this was WAY down the list of those that make a fan wince and go "Ouch" when viewed.
The Patriots are presented as a TEAM of champions. Well, now would be a good time to validate that claim.
157 - Obviously, you've never been a Cardinals fan in the Wrigley Field bleachers or a Red Sox fan anywhere in Yankee Stadium.
If they bring in the RAT or Simms, they can still reach the playoffs. Cassell, not so much.
The interesting thing is that the Pats would have drafted the Rat if Brady was off the board.
I spent most of last year fervently hoping for the Pats to get beaten, and consider myself a full-fledged anti-Pats fan (in large part thanks to Bill Simmons' football columns) but I have to admit I'll be rooting for good ol' Rusher McFumbles as the season progresses.
Pats fans: I know it's cold comfort, but, uh, at least you're 1-0.
(Also, anyone tempted to give into schadenfreude re: star players and serious injury should consider whether their own team's starting QB is invulnerable...)
Just saw the replay of the trainer testing Brady's knee. That is definitely a ruptured ACL, the trainer was testing it on the field and there was a quite obvious anterior drawer.
Medical update over!
Both the Wilfork hit on Losman last year and the Brady injury this year are available on nfl.com videos. If you haven't reviewed both, you are just blowing smoke.
Pollard was blocked to the ground, got up, and lunged at Brady's leg. He was not blocked into Brady, nor was the lunge itself affected by a block. His action was completely under his control, and his entire lunge was at or below knee-level. It knocked Brady out of the game, and possibly out of the season. It was exactly the kind of play the rule forbids, and forbids for good reason.
Wilfork beat his man, had his legs collapsed from behind as he lunged for the QB, and hit Losman, resulting in Losman staying in for several plays before leaving the game after another (legal) hit. Wilfork's lunge starts from above the knee. It is a matter of conjecture whether it would have finished above the knee had Wilfork not had his legs struck as he lunged. The league decided the hit was avoidable, and so fined Wilfork. But it is undeniable that Wilfork's lunge was affected by a block.
If the rule means what it says it means, Pollard should be fined more than Wilfork, as there is no mitigating factor, and it was clear that his intent was to hit Brady below the knee. (Not the ankle, the lower leg. Not that it matters.)
Intent, injury, complete control: it's all there. This is a textbook infraction of the rule. There's nothing we can do to prevent this particular injury now, but the league can and should come down hard to discourage this kind of dangerous play.
Do I expect anything from the league? No. It's not about safety. It's about PR. Last year's PR goal was to show how evil the Patriots were and thus how strong the commissioner was. This year's goal is to show how the commissioner has solved all problems with his toughness. Hence: no fine is to be expected. Or possibly one for Moss, because he's not following the league script.
I'm looking forward to Simmons' column this week. Sad as I am to see Brady out for the year, I can't say that I feel any sympathy at all for Simmons or his dad, who will now have to bitch and moan their way to accepting the fact that in all likelihood their team will not win a 4th championship in eight years.
I see this thread turning into an irrational Brady vs. Anti-Brady thread very quickly...
Hit reminds me of the one Wilfork delivered to Losman last year, which only cost the former, a well-known dirty player, $10k and 15 yards. I wonder if Mr. Conley was that zealous about not hitting QBs' knees back then. Still, it's kind of tough to control what you hit when you're being driven to the ground by a blocker.
The fact that the Pats kept only McFumbles as the backup, and didn't bring in another backup, is probably the best evidence that there is no conspiracy here. Didn't consider that, but it's an excellent point.
The back page of the NY Post is hilariously borderline-tasteless today. 2/3rds of it is devoted to the Jets' win, but the other column is the story on Brady. The headline: "Yahoo!: Brady Out for Year"
Of course, they mean that the story was broken by a reporter who works for "Yahoo! Sports," but it's tough to argue that the decision to put the source in the headline wasn't deliberate.
Pollard was being pushed back to the ground as he was getting up. From the video, you have no way of knowing whether his intent was to tackle Brady below, or above, the knees. From the nfl.com video, it's also readily apparent that there was an uncalled facemask (at 0:38) on the RB holding Pollard down, so there should have been a flag on the play.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter, since Brady's just a system quarterback--Cassel should do just fine in his place ;)
Right up there with "Ike 'beats' Tina to death," when Ike Turner died first. The Post is pretty good with the one-liners.
The Wilfork personal foul for lying on the ground while the QB tripped over him came against the Dolphins in Week 14 in 2006, not against the Jets last year. See post 267 in this thread.
For what people had to say about the Wilfork-Losman hit last year just after it happened, see this thread.
"â€œIke â€˜beatsâ€™ Tina to death,â€"
That is an awesome headline! The Sun would be proud of that one.
As a Red Sox fan, I hate those anti-Jeter t-shirts for the same reason I disliked that post: it lacks class and sportsmanship.
I feel like there's a difference in expected behavior between going to the arch-rival's stadium wearing your home gear and posting at what's supposed to be an intellectual community on the web. In the former, it's part the experience. In the latter, it undermines the business model of this site.
If I wanted bile, I'd go to the boards at Yahoo or Fox Sports.
OK, a couple of things I don't get.
Why is this thread drying up sympathy for Brady? Unless they're all posting and then getting moderated, I don't see many obnoxious posts from Pats fans. On the other hand, I see a number of classles posts talking about how Brady was somehow "deserving" of being injured, either because he was lucky so far or because he has a pretty good life, or because of spygate. I'm a lot more turned off by certain Pats haters than I am by Pats fans here (for the record, I'm not referring to cd6 or morganga...thanks, you guys, for being level headed about this! I actually laughed aloud at your Steeler's comment, cd6.) The only thing that I see Pats fans arguing is that there probably should have been a flag.
And while you can debate whether or not there should be a flag in such situations, I think we can all agree that flags are frequently thrown for less, so merely by the standards of consistency, there should have been a flag.
However, as I said before, it's kind of pointless to argue about. Brady's out, and throwing the flag or not wouldn't have changed a thing, and probably wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game. I think we all agree that Pollard's hit wasn't malicious, and he wasn't intentionally trying to knock Brady out or hurt him, Randy Moss statements aside. It was a crappy bit of bad luck and now Patriots fans and football fans alike are deprived of seeing one of the best QB's in the league play for a season. On the other hand, we are probably treated to more close games and a more exciting AFCE race.
On Wilfork--I wasn't attempting to weigh in on whether he's a dirty player or not. I was just bringing up the "tripped over him" flag as an example of a flag thrown for less (sorry...I thought it was the Jets, but maybe I misremembered and it was the Dolphins). I won't weigh in on the Losman hit, because it seems whether you think that was dirty or not depends entirely on what team jersey you wear on gameday.
So now...what do people think. Are the Pats better served by bringin in Chris Simms or Tim Rattay? Or should they stick with Cassel? Or bring back Gutierrez? They definitely need to bring in someone else even if they stick with Cassel, because two QB's (one of whom is a raw, non-NFL-ready rookie) just isn't enough, especially given Cassel's penchant for running and putting himself in harm's way.
Personally, I didn't find either the Wilfork hit or this one to be dirty. It seems both were clearly players, as they should, going all out and never stopping, and getting blocked towards the QB and loosing some body control.
For those who think either had good body control in their respective situations, I would submit you are overly influenced by super-slow motion replay into thinking this is even remotely possible.
174 - David, if you don't want bile, don't spit it out in the first place. You stated on a football site that you like baseball fans so much more than football fans. Thank you for insulting every football fan here. Frankly, I don't care much for baseball. I also think its fans are far more boorish. I and my friends have been to many football games in many stadiums in fan gear and have never had anything but good-natured banter with fans of other teams. At the couple dozen games I've attended, I've seen only one fight. OTOH, I've seen beer thrown and all sorts of goonish behavior at what few baseball games I've attended and heard enough stories from friends that I know it's not an anomoly. This is not to say it's all fans. It's a small but noticable minority. But in my experience it seems far more accepted than at football games. On the more intellectual side, let's talk about the elitist attitudes of George Will and other noteworthy baseball fans. If you're going to complain about a lack of class and sportsmanship, don't post troll statements. And insulting football fans on a football site is about as trollish as it gets.
Not dirty. Get over yourselves. This is football.
For the record, I post to this site frequently under roguerouge on the fantasy football boards and on these threads on occasion. I'm not a VIP poster like raiderjoe, but I've been a regular buyer and support this business.
I was responding to a specific post that sparked me to engage in counter speech to rude behavior. That's not trolling; it's called not being a wuss to online rudeness.
I'm sorry that this bothered you, but I'll simply note that poster 175 agrees with me when it comes to this thread. The number of people referencing past posts on other threads of people desiring players to get hurt is another example. The fact that this site has to set up throw away threads because people can't talk about things with a level head would be another example.
Another poster asked me to clarify my statement, so I responded by observing that I didn't like crude behavior in any sport, but that it was MY experience that it was more prevalent in football fans. My experiences on the cited two forums on Yahoo and Fox Sports are a part of that judgment.
I'm sorry that you find baseball fans annoying in your experience. I've never witnessed a fight at a baseball stadium. Perhaps that's because Fenway park used to use local college hockey and football players as ushers. To each his own, I guess.
I will apologize for generalizing, but not for being more than a little dismayed at the post I named and the ones similar to it.
176: There have been some ridiculous Pats fan posts (and almost certainly some ridiculous Pats hater posts, although fewer than anyone expected) that have been moderated.
The insistence that this is at all equivalent to Wilfork's hit on Losman last year is absurd, and it's the typical Pats fan persecution complex behavior that everyone is sick of. (I'll readily admit that the other Wilfork penalty against the Jets was ridiculous, and I don't think anyone will dispute that.)
I think it's unreasonable to expect an outpouring of sympathy, since this happens to all sorts of players. With some of the injury-prone guys, we actually sometimes make jokes and say "haha, that zany Chris Perry and his ridiculous injuries."
Maybe the lesson here is that we should feel worse about poor Chris Perry, but it shouldn't surprise anyone that many people aren't upset.
For the record, David, I agree with you.
I like football more than baseball. I watch it with more enthusiasm. I understand nuance and strategy better. I consider myself more of a football fan than a baseball fan. Objectively, I think football fans are much more passionate (often in a bad way) than baseball fans.
I attend between 5-15 White Sox games every year. My family has season tickets to Bears games, so I attend between 3-8 of those games each year. The crowd is 10x worse at Soldier Field than at Comiskey/U.S. Cellular. I think the inherent violence in football brings out the worst in people sometimes.
Talk about classless fans, Wiffle Ball fans are the worst by far. They buy their Jerseys and all the team gear and scream and shout but don't even know the rules. Clearly a ball that hits the oak tree over by the rusted Chevy is a triple only if it hits the bark and isn't caught on the ricochet. A ball caught up in the leaves that drops is just a single. Sheesh.
For what people had to say about the Wilfork-Losman hit last year just after it happened, see this thread.
:: Travis â€” 9/8/2008 @ 9:16 am
Man that's a good thread. "Find in page: cd6" = solid gold comedy.
I forgot about the time somebody tried to argue that the Raiders got lucky on the tuck rule call.
I and my friends have been to many football games in many stadiums in fan gear and have never had anything but good-natured banter with fans of other teams.
As true as that may be, I still think I won't be wearing a Randy Moss Patriots jersey when I go see the Pats play the Raiders in the Coliseum this year...
Man, I missed out on some good crazy, it would seem. Damn shame really, I like crazy.
183 - Man, I don't know, those guys who show up to play ultimate frisbee once a week are total posers too. With their expensive gear and fancy whammo frisbees. Those guys are just out there because it's cool, they don't know that you don't 'play' UF, you live UF.
Seriously though, I had to think about the word borth for several minutes before I figured it out. Then I remembered that the appeal of Raiderjoe is not to understand him... It is simply to experience him and the wisdom he passes on. Such as Rouselef, borth, Vroom and some others.
"You got Irrational Spygate Argument thread in my Brady injury thread!"
"You got Brady injury thread in my Irrational Spygate Argument thread1"
Ah, two bad tastes that taste . . . even worse together.
Yes, well, the NFL has ruled that the Pollard hit was not illegal, and I just cannot fathom that ruling.
After Kimo van H. took out Carson Palmer in the 2005 playoffs, the NFL changed their rules, saying that pass rushers are required to make a conscious effort to not hit the QB low. The angle of attack that Pollard took could only hit Brady in the knees or below. I've seen a lot of apologists say that Pollard was crawling on the ground because of the Morris block, but the fact remains that he simply jumped at Brady in a way that could not possibly result in a hit above the knees.
I do not understand why people cannot admit what is fairly obvious to anybody with eyes. Worse, I am baffled by the lines of logic some commenters are using. One person has gone as far to say that such a hit "happens every week".
When you hit a QB's planted leg from the side in the knee or below, he is going to be injured. It's a simple cause-and-effect from basic physics.
As for whether the hit was "dirty", I would reserve that word for a hit that was intended to injure a player, and I don't think Pollard injured Brady intentionally. But he sure as hell hit him in the lower leg intentionally, and that is supposed to be an illegal hit.
Sadly, the league office is run by people more concerned with PR than with enforcing rules consistently.
And yes, I've seen flags thrown for much, much less. The time Wilfork was flagged because the QB fell over him was the most egregious. (And no, that's not the Losman hit.)
I can accept the fine on Wilfork for the Losman hit because Wilfork hit Losman low, intentionally or not. But with today's ruling, the NFL is sending the message that they are not going to enforce the Carson Palmer rule consistently.
BB has said that they have no plans to bring in Simms or Rattay at this time. The reason Cassel will be the starter is because he knows the Pats' offense better than any QB not named Brady. If there was a top-notch QB out there, I could imagine bringing him in with a dumbed-down playbook (a la Favre in NY), but there is little purpose in bringing in a cast-off QB to start ahead of Cassel.
With that said, the Pats will definitely bring in a 3rd QB. Probably the best bet would be that they'd give Matt Gutierrez a call, since he was cut just a couple weeks ago, and knows the system. But you never know what BB will do until he does it. Two weeks ago the consensus among Pats' observers was that Cassel was going to be cut.
Whammo? Discraft makes a far superior product.
I do not understand why people cannot admit what is fairly obvious to anybody with eyes.
Those who disagree with you have the exact same problem.
Wow. Just wow. The Gus Johnson comments were even funnier than the Tuck Rule redux. I forgot how awesome that thread was.
Not a dirty play, just an unfortunate outcome.
Brady went to high school with my friend's wife, and she has always sworn that he is a terrific guy, not the douchebag he appears to be when walking out of postgame news conferences when he gets a question he doesn't like.
My yoga instructor neighbor might chalk this up to karma for BB's many sins, including perpetually listing Brady as questionable.
In any event, QB injuries happen all the time. If this the end of the world for the Pats (I don't think it is), then they're not the terrifically run franchise we've been forced to read about endlessly these past few years.
The NFL, which is responsible for adjudicating the rules of the game, rules that the Pollard hit was not illegal, you conclude that they did so for "PR reasons", and then you accuse other posters of arguing illogically?
Excuse me while I spew hot coffee out of my nose laughing.
I take it that'd hurt.
Wow, this really has become an irrational thread.
re: 105 (re:91)
I apologize. I read more into it than there was.
morganja for the win (wiffleball!)
There can't possibly be people here saying it was a dirty/illegal hit. The only way Pollard could have avoided hitting Brady low was not to hit him at all. Is anyone seriously suggesting that's what he should have done (in the spirit of the rules/good sportsmanship)? Just lie there and stare at the man? Maybe clap his hands? Wow.
Even if that's what the rule says, the defensive player needs to have a choice that isn't "lying down and doing nothing" in order for the rule to be enforced. Maybe you hadn't heard about it, but that's the way it is. Otherwise this league would turn into a sad pathetic little joke.
The only guy out there who could take them back to the Super Bowl is Jake Plummer. I'm not sure who has his rights, or if he'd consider it, but he wasn't washed up or an injury casualty, and you'd think if he'd consider coming back for anyone, it'd be this team.
You must be joking right? Plummer? Really? That would truly be high comedy. I lived through four years of the Plummer "era" here in Denver and i wouldnt wish him on any fan base, well except perhaps NE's.
Discussions of the business model of this site have absolutely nothing to do with this thread. This is NOT an irrational thread, so please keep your comments below this post to the topic on hand (and avoid Rule #2). Thanks!
Plummer took a less loaded Denver team to the AFC championship game in 2005, and was 7-4 as a starter in 2006. What has Cutler's record been?
Fun fact: Brady was not listed as questionable before this game. Tempting fate?
(Also, I was sure that the Patriots organization was going to announce that, following his intensive knee surgery, Brady would be classified as "Doubtful" for the remainder of the season.)
Record can be deceiving. Check out the Broncos defense stats in 2005 vs the two years since. Cutler may only get the broncos to 8-8 or 9-7 this year but by all subjective and objective measures i cannot see how anyone can argue that Plummer > Cutler.
All I'm saying is Cassel looks loke a stiff, Culpepper is deeply flawed, and, surrounded by that much talent, Plummer gives them a better chance to contend than anyone else I've heard mentioned
"Even if thatâ€™s what the rule says, the defensive player needs to have a choice that isnâ€™t â€œlying down and doing nothingâ€ in order for the rule to be enforced."
I came back to say this. What did you expect Pollard to do? Lie there and scream..."woohoo, Noonan, Noonan"?
He's got a guy lying on his back...it was his only option.
Wilfork didn't need to stick his elbow out there...he had options. Christ, Losman didn't even have the ball.
It's amazing to me how completely sane and rationale people can turn into babbling agents of anti-logic and reason just b/c of a loyalty to a football team.
Where is it written that rooting for a particular teams means you take your objectivity and temporarily forget it ever existed?
Sorry fellas, I couldn't resist...
Anybody else just hear the quote from Belichick?
"we teach our players to hit between the knees and helment"
Man is this a-hole a piece of work.
I noticed last night, without even looking for it, three times in the second and third quarters of the GB game a quarterback had contact below the knee. One play was an almost exact replay of what happened to Brady.
That sort of play happens all the time, is not a penalty, and it is called that way consistently. At least when involving non-superstar quarterbacks.
I'm sorry to see Brady injured. Pollard showed himself to be a classy guy and called Brady up to express how sorry he was that Brady got injured on the play.
Brady apparently just yelled at him. Brady could take a long step towards rehabilitating his image amongst those who dislike him by getting over it, realizing it was not a dirty play and the injury was not intentional and accepting the apology that wasn't even necessary.
I understand it might take a few weeks for the anger to go away, but Pollard showed a lot of class, the Golden Boy should show a little too.
Does momentum exist in college football? It sure seems that way for the Louisville Cardinals.
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