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23 Nov 2009

Mangini Questions Injuries

After years of silence, Eric Mangini has finally spoke out against the routine abuses of the NFL's injury policies, subtly suggesting it cost his team the game against the Lions.

Posted by: Bill Barnwell on 23 Nov 2009

36 comments, Last at 25 Nov 2009, 4:03pm by The Human Spider

Comments

1
by Dean :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 6:13pm

Somewhere Joe Nash and Ken Clarke are smiling.

2
by commissionerleaf :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 6:52pm

When I saw the headline, I immediately thought "Oh god, Mangini is the worst coach ever." because I thought he was questioning the BROWNS players saying they were injured. Y'know, like the halfback who got hurt practicing without pads.

Mangini is still the worst coach ever. Or at least close. The Browns are an absolute Goliath of suck, and they didn't have to be. When Mangini came to town they were a merely bad team. He has driven them down to the Raiders/Lions basement of the NFL, not to be seen for years to come. The only good young players they have are gone (Edwards, Winslow, Bodden), or going as soon as they can (Cribbs). Joe Thomas deserves better; he may be the best left tackle in the league and he's never likely to see the playoffs unless he goes elsewhere.

3
by BigDerf :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 6:55pm

Of course... cause when you're supposed to be a defensive genius and your team lets up 38 points to the lions.... It's all the fault you not being able to run your no huddle offense.

4
by Bobman :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 7:08pm

The irony of a former Pats D coach accusing someone of bending the rules to fake D injuries to slow down a hard-charging no-huddle attack is, to say the least, rich. I predict Willie McGinnest sends Mangini a telegram that says, simply, "har-har!"

Try watching the Colts sometime, Eric. Maybe next season, when you're home on your sofa on Sunday afternoons.

Having been pissy, I am honestly glad it's being outed more these days. You can never really "prove" a fake injury and a ref is never gonna stand over some flattened, gasping guy and say "get up, maggot." But if you can get some owners rumbling, some comp committee "studies," maybe the shit-bag coaches who cheat this way will hesitate, or heavens to Betsy, stop altogether.

22
by BucNasty :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 4:53am

Walk it off.

30
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 12:18pm

"Try watching the Colts sometime, Eric. Maybe next season, when you're home on your sofa on Sunday afternoons."

Yeah, because the colts have never done it before.

33
by RickD :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 7:58pm

I'm pretty sure that's not "irony".

5
by Raiderjoe :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 7:27pm

Mangini big whiner. Should woorry more abuot Browns and Browns and not worory about Lions and other teams.

36
by The Human Spider :: Wed, 11/25/2009 - 4:03pm

I agree with you spell che...er...raiderjoe.

6
by Trogdor :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 7:32pm

The hamstring injury total has got to be inaccurate. Every time a receiver gets a step on a DB, the defender comes up limping and/or grabs the back of his leg after the play. He didn't get beat, no way, it's just that his hamstring pulled right off the bone and miraculously healed before the next snap.

7
by Biebs (not verified) :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 7:34pm

This isn't the first time this has happened to Mangini. The Broncos did this to the Jets last year, and it was brutal, I remember Broncos players going down on 3 or 4 consecutive plays during a no-huddle drive, they must have stopped play 10 times for injuries of players who returned on the field during the same drive.

8
by Antique Furniture (not verified) :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 7:39pm

Didn't this happen a whole bunch when the Bills started running no huddle back in the day?

10
by Raiderjoe :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 7:44pm

yes, happen with them. think first happened to bengals especially when playing Glanbille Oilers temas in late 80s.

20
by Bobman :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 3:03am

RJ, I salute your historical knowledge. Just as I was about to say yes, and don't forget about the Bengals, I saw your note.

31
by J. Morse (not verified) :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 12:40pm

Somewhere, sometime I've heard Glanville boast that he coached his players to fake cramps in just these situations.

9
by Raiderjoe :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 7:42pm

yes, remmeber that game. Dirty broncos did bad things at end of game. Karma come back to kick them in butt when broncos blow 3 game lead and not make playoffs ans then jerk coach Shanarat get fired

11
by Will :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 8:01pm

Simple solution - if you stop play due to injury, you are not eligible to return until after a change of possession, or a stoppage of play either due to timeout, end of quarter, or two minute warning.

Will

12
by zlionsfan :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 8:09pm

Considering the number of injuries that are the result of actions by other players, I don't think that would pass.

28
by billsfan :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 11:40am

That's far too reasonable to ever be implemented.

(I also like the Eagles)

13
by zlionsfan :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 8:17pm

It's certainly not the first time people have been "hurt" against a hurry-up offense, so it isn't unique to the Browns or Mangini, and if they really are faking injuries, I'd prefer that Schwartz not do that.

non sequitur: Look, it's Matt Millen on ESPNews! And he still looks stupid!

Sorry, back to the topic at hand. I suspect Mangini has a point, although it doesn't sound quite the same after a loss (I'd guess the defense had something to do with that), and especially not from a guy that was linked to jacking around with injury reports last year.

And I really don't know that there is a solution to it. A team that's willing to break the rules by faking injury might also be willing to inflict minor injuries on opposing players that would cause them to leave the field, if there were some limit on substituting injured players.

ohmygod. I think Millen is talking about quarterback depth. I'd love to hear him speak from experience, but I muted it because I can't stand to hear the sound of his voice. It reminds me of idiocy and a lost decade.

14
by MilkmanDanimal :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 8:53pm

Am I allowed to call Mangini a total asshat here? If, not, can I still call him a total asshat here?

24
by dryheat :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 9:45am

Sure. I wish I could pinpoint the exact moment of time when Mangini went from becoming the next Belichick to the next Lane Kiffin. It's been a fascinating descent.

32
by anonymiss (not verified) :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 3:59pm

Sure, call him that. Jim Schwartz basically did the same thing in his press conference, calling Mangini out. Loved it.

34
by tuluse :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 11:36pm

Mangini really seems like one of the easiest people to root against in the NFL. Every time I read something he said, I respect him a little less.

15
by Anonymous* (not verified) :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 9:10pm

Here's all the injuries listed in the game book. The timer also lists whether it was a no-huddle. I'm assuming that players don't have the ability to act injured once the play ends and they see the next play is a no-huddle. So they'd only be able to guess it was a no-huddle if the play that they got "injured" on was also a no-huddle. I don't know if that conjecture is true or not.

1Q
1-10-CLE 26 (14:55) 31-J.Lewis up the middle to CLV 32 for 6 yards (55-L.Foote). DET-41-W.James was injured during the play. His return is Probable. DID RETURN, definitely not a dive since this was the first offensive play of the game.

1-10-DET 33 (12:29) (No Huddle) 31-J.Lewis right tackle to DET 31 for 2 yards (59-J.Peterson). DET-60-J.Cohen was injured during the play. His return is Probable. DID RETURN, possibly a dive.

1-10-CLE 26 (:44) (Shotgun) 9-M.Stafford pass incomplete deep right to 81-C.Johnson. CLV-96-D.Bowens was injured during the play. His return is Probable. DID RETURN. This is obviously a Cleveland injury, I'm just listing all of them.

2Q

3-2-CLE 47 (3:36) CVL #16-J. Cribbs comes in at QB position for this play. B. Quinn lines up at wide-out. (No Huddle, Shotgun) 16-J.Cribbs left end pushed ob at DET 45 for 8 yards (31-P.Buchanon). DET-59-J.Peterson was injured during the play. His return is Probable. DID RETURN, they said it wasn't a no-huddle, so probably not a dive.

3Q

1-10-CLE 30 (10:17) (No Huddle) 31-J.Lewis up the middle to CLV 37 for 7 yards (26-L.Delmas). DET-30-K.Simpson was injured during the play. His return is Questionable. DID RETURN, possible dive.

4Q

2-4-CLE 42 (9:20) (No Huddle) 10-B.Quinn pass short right to 86-M.Gaines pushed ob at CLV 45 for 3 yards (25-M.White). DET-41-W.James was injured during the play. His return is Probable. DID RETURN, possible dive. Notice though that W.James was the one who got hurt on the first offensive play that we thought was not a dive. It's possible his injury could have returned.

2-10-DET 39 (6:58) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 10-B.Quinn pass short left to 16-J.Cribbs pushed ob at DET 4 for 35 yards (55-L.Foote). DET-31-P.Buchanon was injured during the play. UNSURE IF HE RETURNED. He's not involved in any more plays after that. That doesn't prove he left the game; someone watching would have to be sure. But if he left the game, that's not a dive; if he returned, possible dive.

16
by Anonymous* (not verified) :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 9:11pm

change that 2Q injury to possible dive, since it did say no-huddle, I just missed it.

17
by C (not verified) :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 9:20pm

I think it happens but it's not something you complain about as a coach. It looks weak.

I remember a Giants game in 1994, 1995ish where they had a safety named Tito Wooten. I believe the Giants were playing Dallas and were up late in the game while the Cowboys were running a 2 min drill to try and win the game, but after the Cowboys hit a big play and tried to get to the LOS to spike the ball Tito was just loafing around casually jogging ever so slowly back to the LOS. Teams would also tackle a guy and not let the ball carrier get up right away.

18
by Purds :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 9:54pm

So who does complain about it? Or, do we just let crap slide? "If you're not cheating, you're not trying!"

21
by Bobman :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 3:10am

Fans complain, viewers complain, players sometimes, commentators sometimes wryly comment on it, but I don't think there's a simple, effective solution. The NFLPA would scream bloody murder if they thoght a legit injury was not taken seriously on-field. There are about 1,000 real injuries each season and what, 25-50 "dive" injuries? It just happens that the dives happen at the perfect, crucial, key moments, of course. Maybe the simple solution is a guy sits out 4-5 plays and not just one play.

Then what happens if a forgetful or unscrupulous team sends him back in after two plays and the refs don't notice until he makes the game-saving tackle? Like an inadvertent whistle, all they can do is apologize. BFD. That and $3.50 gets you coffee at Starbucks.

25
by dryheat :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 9:57am

I really don't think it's the epidemic that we've starting imagining. Players frequently cramp up, especially in the fourth quarter of a warm day. Players get pulls and dings that require a few seconds to recover from. Players get the wind knocked out of them and stingers, which might require a minute or two. Every coach worth his salt, and even guys like Cable and Zorn, in all probability, instructs his players to stay down if he's not going to be able to effectively perform. It's just smart football.

Now, if NFL football suddenly becomes futbol, then something will have to be done. In the meantime, I don't think it's likely that too many guys going down are doing so unnecessarily. I think it's likely that a few complaints are legitimate in order to slow down a team's momentum, but until it becomes an epidemic and starts to legitimately effect the quality of play, I say smart move...same way a boxer stays down until 8 when he hits the canvas. It's not like this is a brand new phenomenon.

Of course, if the league wanted to ensure it is a legitimate injury, the way to fix it would be to have a 10-second runoff on the game clock, perhaps on the second instance.

29
by Purds :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 11:52am

"Of course, if the league wanted to ensure it is a legitimate injury, the way to fix it would be to have a 10-second runoff on the game clock, perhaps on the second instance."

Wait, that would hurt the no-huddle offense even more, as they'd lose time in a 2-minute offense. I think a simple solution would be to take the guy out for a set time. Could be until the ball is turned over. Could be 2 minutes of game clock time. Will never happen, because it's too foreign (putting an injury clock on the field), but I'd love to see it in soccer as well. Anyone who goes down and doesn't get up within 15 seconds has to go off the field and cannot come back on until the referee allows.

Again, it won't happen, but I like seeing games won by athletes, and good coaching decisions, not "gamesmanship." To me, there is no reason to drop honor from sports. It doesn't really matter who won, so winning by "cheating" or "gamesmanship" to me is a futile thing. Why do it? Is winning that important? Will it make the fans feel better that much that you should sacrifice character?

Again, I know most disagree, but I guess I had my time as a competitor, and I'm just not as competitive any more. I currently coach against many adults who still seem they need to win at any cost. It's pathetic, if you ask me. What kind of world do you want to live in? One where everyone cheats on everything they can, just because they can? Taxes? Spouses? Trials? I'd rather not. A bit utopian, I understand, but why not live the way you'd like to live? It's not like we're talking about defeating Hitler or Al-Qaeda here. In those cases, do anything to win.

Football? It's just a game.

35
by dbostedo :: Wed, 11/25/2009 - 9:59am

Actually, that already happens in soccer. One of the things they've done (in international competitions at least) is get injured players off the field as quickly as possible, at which point their team is playing one player short. That player (who, admittedly frequently jumps right back up once reaching the sideline) isn't allowed back until the ref allows, which is usually pretty quickly (e.g. as soon as the ball goes out of bounds).

The problem in football is that injuries need to be examined before moving someone. In soccer they are almost always leg injuries, so you can be pretty sure it's OK to quickly stretcher someone off. In football, you'd have to worry about shoulders, necks, and backs - where moving the person quickly is problematic.

And the diving problem in soccer is not actually injury related, but contact related, where players attempt to draw a penalty shot by throwing themselves to the ground. That's illegal, and is actually enforced enough that it's (in my opinion) made a positive impact. It's at least gotten rid of the most blatant diving. The "injuries" are sometimes the result of trying to justify the players' trip to the ground.

19
by Raiderjoe :: Mon, 11/23/2009 - 11:26pm

happen again at end of 2nd quarter of texnad-oilers game

23
by Temo :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 9:10am

I dare say, Barnwell, you've gotten more press out of this injury research thing than anything else you've done. (reading the other story you linked)

26
by huston720 :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 10:09am

I think he is probably correct that this happens occaisionally, but that is just part of the risks in running a no-huddle, that faking injuries could throw it off track. Even if the Lions were doing this, I doubt it had much of an impact on the game. The biggest reason the Browns lost is the Browns and Mangini. Especially the lack of a run on 3rd and 5 before the last punt.

Also it seems like perhaps a good potential solution is to say a player that is injured has to miss the next three plays instead of one (but could come in after a timeout or change of possesion, etc). I like this solution because holding them out the rest of the drive seems excessive, and also this give the training staff more time to evaluate the player to ensure he is ok to go back out if it is a real injury.

27
by Feagles - King ... :: Tue, 11/24/2009 - 10:22am

In other news, Lane Kiffin is quoted as saying that he doesn't understand why college coaches have to trash talk each other so much.

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