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09 Mar 2010

The 36 Best Undrafted Players Since '36

After meeting Neil Paine from P-F-R at the conference this weekend, I realized we really should do more linking to the neat stuff they produce at the P-F-R blog. And voila, the next day, there's something neat! It looks like this is in alphabetical order, though, which means a big problem. The first 18 end at Sam Mills. Guess who is missing? (Hint: Scroll to "underrated defensive player" and read my rant in the awards commentary.)

UPDATE: Part II is now posted as well.

Posted by: Aaron Schatz on 09 Mar 2010

35 comments, Last at 11 Mar 2010, 12:21am by Bowl Game Anomaly

Comments

1
by C (not verified) :: Mon, 03/08/2010 - 7:42pm

I saw Aaron Schatz on one of the NFL network programs this weekend. It was a top 10 or something, maybe top 10 ideas that changed the game? They might have been talking about the impact of the shotgun, and Schatz brought up I believe the 2007 percentage of plays in shotgun while all the other sports writers were engrossed in their cliches.

I'm in Washington so I've been bombarded with this "London Fletcher is underrated" crap for a while to the point that I feel like it's common knowledge, and I actually don't like his game to the point that he's overrated. I see him jump on to many piles, he's short for pass coverage, he is aggressive but his games played streak is the thing that does impress the hell out of me.

Kurt Warner & Warren Moon have to be at the top of the list. It isn't even just about them not being drafted, but their unique situations to get to the NFL and unique NFL accomplishments. They both played in offenses you can remember, The greatest show on turf and the run & gun and they both have unreal statistics.

3
by Raiderjoe :: Mon, 03/08/2010 - 9:00pm

good post, C.

L Fletcher goodd but mayabe not too good. dont feel like it is gerat unjustice that he made 1 or 0 pro blows. good takcler, not greta in pass coverage. rmember that he had zero PB apps but forgot if he made it this pastst seaosn or nor. Not really foollower of pro blow.

Moon offense with Housotn was run and shoot. Think Spureier offense at Florida was run and gun

4
by dmb :: Mon, 03/08/2010 - 11:03pm

I halfway agree with you on this one. Yes, the Washington media has been beating this drum relentlessly, and yes, that can get tiresome. And it does seem like whenever Fletcher is mentioned, it's in the context of being underrated or being a solid player ... so I don't think he's underrated in the sense that people don't think he's as good as he is.

However, somehow Fletcher has managed to have a relatively low national profile for quite awhile, despite being an above-average player for an exceptionally long time. So even though people say nice things about him whenever he's brought up, for some reason he just isn't brought up that often in the first place. Do you really think he's unworthy of at least being in the conversation for a top-10 spot of undrafted players, or players who are short for their position? I think that's the sort of "underrated" Aaron is referring to (especially since those were the examples he gave in the "awards" article): if somebody had thought to nominate Fletcher, he probably would have gotten some recognition, but he just doesn't usually get brought up in the conversation.

As for your assessment of him, I have to disagree a bit. He's definitely lost a step over the past year or so, so he is sometimes late to the pile, but I didn't notice him "jumping on" very much ... but that could be homer glasses. I think the bigger issue is how far back he's had to line up at times to allow him to get sideline-to-sideline. As for being "short for pass coverage," yes, he's short, but I don't think that really affects his coverage abilities too much. If your MLB is the one who's defending against a jump ball, it's your defensive game plan, not the MLB's height, that's a problem. Fortunately, Gregg Williams and Greg Blache haven't ever asked him to do that -- nor is he usually on a tight end. Sometimes he does has middle zone responsibility, but it seems like he's mostly responsible for anyone coming out of the backfield ... and running backs as a whole really aren't a tall lot. Rather, the bigger coverage issue for him is that, again, he's lost a step, so if a back can get a step on him and the QB is able to hit him perfectly in stride, then there's the chance of giving up a pretty big play.

14
by C (not verified) :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 9:55am

- Good call on the "Run and Shoot" Raiderjoe... Poster was drunk.
- I also meant to say Schatz brought up the 2007 PATRIOTS shotgun percentage while all the other sportswriters were in their cliche/hyperbole.

That's the thing with London Fletcher
In Washington it's always... " The underrated LF".
In the National media they don't bring up he's underrated every chance they get
The Outsiders always beat the "he's criminally underrated drum".

I don't think Fletcher was deserving of the pro bowls, but I give him credit for a more "lifetime achievement award" for so many consecutive starts.... He's been above average for a long time which is a good thing, but I wouldn't say he was ever some great pro bowl deserving player... Yeah yeah, you can list off his tackles numbers but I think a lot of that is jumping on the pile after the fact and his pass coverage isn't good, but I like his pursuit after the catch.

Shorter MLB's have problems covering tight ends... See Zack Thomas. Slower MLB's have problems covering tight ends... See Antonio Pierce.

He's a decent player (above average) that you could have plugged into your lineup for a long time and not worried about, but he wasn't exactly a world beater. I'm sick to death though of always hearing how underrated he is in this Washington market. That's the first thing you always hear about with London Fletcher... Did you know he's underrated?

Lifetime achievement award... not a player who is better than you think underrated.

16
by Bowl Game Anomaly :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 11:52am

Deserving of which Pro Bowls? He has not been voted onto any Pro Bowl team. He has only participated in the Pro Bowl as a replacement.

You could also give him credit for being a key player on a lot of good (though not great) defenses.

Also, of the first 18 players listed on PFR, only 1 played LB (Sam Mills). The second 18 have 0 LBs unless you include Marion Motley, who is generally recognized for his contributions on offense, not defense. So in the interests of positional balance, Fletcher should be on the list.

32
by C (not verified) :: Wed, 03/10/2010 - 10:16am

He wasn't voted into the pro bowl and he shouldn't have been. Was he better than Brian Urlchaer, Derrick Brooks, Lance Briggs, Demarcus Ware or the other NFC players? Was he better than Ray Lewis, Zack Thomas, Teddy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel or the AFC Linebackers?

Being a good player on good defenses is fine, but that doesn't make you great.

I thought the list was for the top undrafted players, not a listing of a "team" of underafted players accounting for positional balances. I'm just sick of the "London Fletcher is criminally underrated" trumpet that keeps blaring in my ear.

13
by Spielman :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 9:31am

Agreed on Warner and Moon.

But how about the fact that the Rams signed Warner and Fletcher in the same year? Has anybody ever gotten anywhere close to that much value off the scrap heap at one time?

2
by Raiderjoe :: Mon, 03/08/2010 - 8:51pm

Raiders def lineman Otis Sistrunk- no college and never drafted.
Verty good player for team form 72-78.
started super bowl 11 and had 4 takcles.
made assoc press 2nd team all pro in 74 with wally chambers. 1st team dts- j Greene and a page.

5
by Marko :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 12:39am

Sistrunk went to the University of Mars. I think Raiderjoe and some others will get the reference.

6
by Bobman :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 1:10am

Marko, you stole my thunder.

IIRC, in my youth I had a football card of Sistrunk and that was his credited alma mater on the back. In quotation marks.

7
by Marko :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 1:47am

Sorry about that, Bobman. I'll let you explain this to anyone who is too young to know what the hell we are talking about.

11
by Raiderjoe :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 8:11am

yes Alex karras said it about Sistrunk druing monday night telecst was defnitely during 74-76 era beucause that when karras was on mnf. think was from 74 Buffa vs Oakland game but not sure. also couild have been vs dolphins in 75

21
by Kevin from Philly :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 3:17pm

I'm pretty sure RaiderJoe hangs out at the college bars around the University of Mars.

8
by Key19 :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 3:01am

Not to be too much of a homer, but if Josh Cribbs makes this list and Tony Romo somehow isn't listed on Part 2, there are some major problems with this list.

9
by ammek :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 5:01am

Part two is up. Key19 will be disappointed.

10
by Brendan Scolari :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 5:41am

Yeah, thats um.... incredibly stupid.

26
by justme_cd :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 6:32pm

Even worse, in the comments on his own article the author addresses the issue. He agrees Romo/Brian Waters are better than Cribbs/Welker. How can you leave better players of a list of the best players?

Then he proceeds to say he'd put Garcia on before Romo. I'd say there are bigger snubs than Romo being left off the list, but that comment just knocked my assessment of the article down some notches.

30
by Brendan Scolari :: Wed, 03/10/2010 - 3:56am

Agreed.

33
by Eddo :: Wed, 03/10/2010 - 11:54am

Wow, Waters is an even bigger snub! Especially considering the P-F-R blog (I forget which writer) had Waters on the 2000s All-Decade team.

28
by Key19 :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 10:32pm

I am disappointed.

This will add more fuel to my fire that is the "Tony Romo is actually underrated because he's perceived as being overrated, yet this perception of him being overrated has pervaded thought to the point that it leads to him being rated lower than what his true value is, therefore he's underrated" argument.

And yes, I did think about that last sentence's construction for about 10 minutes before I settled on that version as being the best way to broadcast the idea.

34
by Independent George :: Wed, 03/10/2010 - 6:22pm

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

35
by Bowl Game Anomaly :: Thu, 03/11/2010 - 12:21am

Inconceivable!

12
by cdubya (not verified) :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 9:20am

No Pat Williams? Hmm...pro bowl level DT who has been a force against the run for over a decade or a really good kick returner for the past couple seasons? Tough call.

15
by dk240t :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 10:51am

Yeah, I like Josh Cribbs a bunch, but being on any list of best players in ~75 years is a little much. He's getting credit as if he's the elite return man in the league for 2 more years, when, historically, practically no elite return men stayed on top for more than 2-3 years (think Devin Hester, Dante Hall, Jerome Mathis, and so on).

17
by Eddo :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 12:18pm

Tony Romo's absence is pretty glaring. Are Wes Welker's three good years at wide receiver really more valuable than Romo's three and a half good years at quarterback?

(And of course, Josh Cribbs's presence is even worse.)

19
by Joe T. :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 3:02pm

There is a bias in the evaluation of QBs, where they are expected to be dominant players for a longer period than any other skill position. RBs who put up 4-5 good years before their legs fall off can make a top-10 list, but a QB with 4-5 good years is less likely to be considered among the all-time best at his position.

I think this lists sets the bar pretty high for QBs with Warner & Moon. Romo is clearly not in their company, not yet anyway.

18
by :) (not verified) :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 2:18pm

3.5 good years at QB ? Does dropping the ball and laying on the ground crying count as a contribution to his "good" years ... ?
I guess you can't hold his career hostage for that play.. it's not like he ever fumbled 4 times in a post season game.

Oh, wait a sec -

20
by Arson55 :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 3:07pm

So the answer to being considered one of the all time greats is to be a good special teams player for a couple of years. Good to know.

31
by Brendan Scolari :: Wed, 03/10/2010 - 3:56am

Now don't sell him short, he was the Browns' best quarterback too!

22
by Big Johnson (not verified) :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 3:56pm

"Warren Moon - players like Night Train Lane and Larry Little were prevented from player major college football due to the color of their skin, but Moon had to deal with double discrimination -- he wasn't just black, he was a black quarterback."

Wes welker or toby garhart anyone??

23
by Eddo :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 4:06pm

"Major college football"

Welker played at Texas Tech.
Gerhart played at Stanford.

Lane played at Western Nebraska Community College-Scottsbluff.
Little played at Bethune-Cookman.

Do you not see the difference?

24
by t.d. :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 4:19pm

Warren Moon played for the Washington Huskies, so I guess this doesn't apply to him, either

25
by Eddo :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 5:12pm

Yeah.

I almost added that bit, but I was more interested in refuting the Welker/Gerhart thing.

27
by FourteenDays :: Tue, 03/09/2010 - 8:09pm

As the article points out, though, Moon wasn't recruited by any major programs as a QB coming out of high school -- it was only after he served time at a JC that he was able to get a major program to take him as a QB.

29
by Dice :: Wed, 03/10/2010 - 12:07am

Glad to see Joe Jacoby on part 1.

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