Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

14 Mar 2010

Browns Trade Quinn to Denver, Wimbley To Raiders

Right now just a Twitter from Jay Glazer, story to come, but Cleveland has sent Brady Quinn to Denver for Peyton Hillis and two conditional draft picks. If ever there was a player meant to be traded for conditional draft picks, it is Brady Quinn. If Josh McDaniels does right by him, he could still develop into a real NFL quarterback, in which case it would be nice for Cleveland to get something more than two seventh-rounders or whatever.

UPDATE: They also dealt linebacker Kamerion Wimbley to the Raiders for a third-round pick.

Posted by: Aaron Schatz on 14 Mar 2010

60 comments, Last at 27 Mar 2010, 4:09am by sports-veronica

Comments

1
by MikeD :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 5:22pm

Schefter's reporting it's a 6th in 2011 and a conditional late round pick in 2012.

2
by BigDerf :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 5:52pm

Has anyone ever cleaned house on quarterbacks that quickly before? Holmgren knew he didn't want any of their guys and got his own guys in quickly. Better to trade Quinn now and at least get the picks... rather than inevitably cutting him or even trading him for less since he wasn't going to keep him anyway.

Also Schefter is also reporting a trade of Kamerion Wimbley to the Raiders for an undisclosed (at the moment.) pick.

Edit - Mort is reporting it's the Raiders' Third Rounder.

3
by HostileGospel :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 5:52pm

Well, that's a bit of a surprise (destination, not the trade itself). Maybe Quinn can develop better in Denver.

--
There's a place I want to be. It's the NovaCare Center. That's in Philadelphia. One NovaCare Way, where the Eagles practice and then they eat cafeteria food and they watch film and we eat and we have fun.

-Donovan McNabb

4
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 6:07pm

Hmm. I think Orton did a great job last year, but his upside is, lets face, very limited. Quinn at least has upside; McDaniels, for all his faults, has a proven record coaching QBs, the Broncos has a pretty good offense (good to great recievers and good to great o-line play) and Orton can play for another year if Quinn isn't quite ready.

If Quinn can't succeed in Denver there's nowhere he can.

All in all, I think i like the move - there's a lot of upside for very little downside.

30
by The Guy You Don't Want to Hear (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 2:01am

I remember hearing a lot of rumors about Quinn last year. McDaniels must really see something to chase him for a year plus even after bringing in a QB who performed pretty well for a year.

I was hoping for Leinart and never have been high on Quinn, but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

31
by The Guy You Don't Want to Hear (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 2:11am

I forgot to say this: However, I'm very sad to see Hillis go, though he may work out well for Cleveland.

40
by sundown (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 2:30pm

"..."Orton can play for another year if Quinn isn't quite ready."
Are you talking "ready to take over the practice squad" or "ready to sub in for Desmond Howard on College Game Day"? Because both of those are considerably more likely than him taking over as Denver's starter. He's going to beat out Orton after failing to do so vs Derek Anderson? Orton will never be great, but he's reached a level of performance far above anything Quinn has shown.

5
by slipknottin :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 6:12pm

Cleveland has got to have the strangest looking roster in the league.

Now they add Hillis, another guy who doesnt really fit into any position.

13
by sundown (not verified) :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 6:58pm

Not much of a track record in terms of game play, but Hillis has the potential to be a good back. Runs hard and can catch the ball.

6
by Harris :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 6:13pm

This is a lot of sound and fury. I'm not sure it signifies anything. Are the Browns any better with with Delhomme and Wallace than they were with Quinn and Anderson? Certainly the QBs in Cleveland weren't good, but unless Holmgren has a plan to drastically improve the OL, he's just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Hail Hydra!

14
by tuluse :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 7:04pm

Is the problem really the line? I know St Clair is a giant pile of suck at RT, but I thought they were average or better on the rest of the line. I think the complete lack of viable receiving options is bigger problem. Plus, starting Jamal Lewis at running back.

23
by Phil Osopher :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 10:24pm

JT all pro, E Steinback pro bowl, Mack future pro bowler, RG, RT up for grabs

O line is the most talent of any Cleveland unit. Three great players out of five.

Quinn and DA are not better than 2nd string, so getting rid of them is fine. Delhommie???!?!?!?!??!?! Oh please be right Holmgren, please!!!

Wimbley is an odd trade, but with Roth, I guess they will draft OLB now to play along side.

12 picks in this draft. I almost guarantee a trade up in multiple different rounds. 12 new rookies??? that isn't going to happen with a coach that doesn't develop them.

26
by Brendan Scolari :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 10:42pm

Steinbach is apparently really, really, bad, at least according to PFF and a couple Browns fans I've spoken too. But then again I've heard some Browns fans say he's still really good, so I'm not quite sure what to believe.

27
by Raiderjoe :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 12:28am

yesh, mack good center, voted for him as nonskill psoiiton rookie of year.

roth good. played well vs kc ccheifs in 2009

you write clev coach not good at develiping rookeis. with jets he help develop d revis who make all rookie team 2007. mangnu also help develop Nick mangild (who mack have to battle with for all pro temas in future) as srookie and D ferguson and some others

33
by starzero :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 8:15am

mangnu.

--
hail damage

7
by justanothersteve :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 6:23pm

OK, now I'm really puzzled. Was Brady really so gawd-awful as to be dumped for that low a price (a low draft pick and a FB)? Not saying he deserved to be traded for much. I'm just stunned he went for that little. On a secondary note, could this trade even have happened with a salary cap in place?

9
by sundown (not verified) :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 6:53pm

I'm puzzled by how you ask the question as if you never saw Quinn play. The fact he struggled to beat out Anderson should be your first clue. Sure, the Browns sucked, but he had ample opportunity to look like more than a total bust and never did.

15
by justanothersteve :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 7:25pm

You're right. I never did see him play. I live in St Louis and am a Packers fan. Not to mention I've missed half the last two seasons in the Middle East. But I thought a good part of the problem was the talent (or lack of it) surrounding him in Cleveland. Has Cleveland even had a skill position star the last couple seasons? The best talents were head cases that were traded. Only the very best QBs can do it practically alone, and I don't think Quinn would have ever been thought to have that high a ceiling.

24
by Phil Osopher :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 10:26pm

Quinn was not pretty to watch.

He has upside due to work ethic and "smarts" not physical ability and his arm

28
by johnny walker (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 12:32am

He's really, really bad. Inaccurate on all three levels, bad mechanics, weak arm, throws a ton of dead ducks even for someone with the aforementioned negative qualities, etc. His deep ball makes Gradkowski look like Brady. Don't remember who they were -- probably one of the primetime games considering I was watching -- but I saw a game last season where he couldn't even throw a WR screen properly. Kept sailing them over the poor guys' heads.

8
by Theo :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 6:48pm

"If Josh McDaniels does right by him, he could still develop into a real NFL quarterback"

Allow me to rephrase that:
"If Josh McDaniels does right to a QB, he could still develop Quinn into a real NFL backup quarterback, Quinn would be behind Cutler"

10
by tunesmith :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 6:54pm

I don't get it.

16
by Theo :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 7:43pm

let me facepalm myself and realise mcd is in denver and cutler in chicago.

Then again, what potential does he see in Quinn he didn't see in Cutler?

29
by johnny walker (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 12:34am

Well, Quinn doesn't have enough of an arm to convince himself he can get away with the stuff Cutler tries. Maybe he thinks he can improve his decisionmaking and get him throwing short/med well enough to run the McD scheme.

44
by Bright Blue Shorts :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 3:17pm

There was an article about Bill Belichick around these parts that said the two most importants things in a QB are decision-making and accuracy. I'd assume McD understands that perfectly well.

45
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 3:18pm

Well, for one, Quinn hadn't already shot his way out of town when McDaniels was hired.

11
by tunesmith :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 6:54pm

What has FO generally thought about Brady Quinn? As bad as his stats? Or unfairly maligned due to the rest of the Browns?

18
by Nathan :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 7:57pm

From the couple of games I watched this year (including the BAL/CLE game which was the most horrendous display of football I've seen since the PHI/CIN tie)... Quinn never EVER EVER throws more than 5 yds downfield. Everything was a bubble screen or a quick out or a slant. Eventually the CBs just step up and shut it all down. They never ran a double move to open it back up. Not sure who to point fingers to on that one... Quinn, the coaching staff, the receivers or the line. But it was horrendous to watch. It was almost entertaining in it's futility.

32
by Greg Trippiedi :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 5:32am

There's also the (anecdotal)evidence that Quinn's ball (particularly deep ball)comes out of his hand a lot better in a controlled temperature environment such as the game played at Ford Field vs. any of his starts on the shores of Lake Erie.

I'd imagine the thin air in Denver would eliminate any arm strength issues that a windy environment would create. But the accuracy issues, I think, are always going to be there. That seems to be more of a mechanical flaw.

12
by sundown (not verified) :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 6:56pm

Well, Bronco fans won't be demanding Hillis play ahead of Moreno this year. I guess for McD that will be an upside.

17
by BWV 1129 (not verified) :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 7:48pm

Remember, Quinn ran the same playbook that McDaniels uses while he was at Notre Dame. So he already knows the offense. Denver gave up basically nothing and got a young QB with some promise who comes in pretty much up-to-speed on the system.

41
by sundown (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 2:34pm

He presumably was also up-to-speed on Cleveland's system. Didn't seem to help him all that much, though.

19
by mjb :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 8:16pm

So with them trading Wimbley, does that mean that they are going to start moving toward a 4-3 D? Otherwise why trade your best pass-rushing LB?

34
by drobviousso :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 9:31am

Agreed. This really shocked me more than the Quinn trade.

20
by Raiderjoe :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 8:56pm

quinn to bromcos= bad
hillis and picks to browns= gopod

wimbley to Raiders= win team going to use wimbley correctly and will be among sack leaders. very good at rushing pasers

25
by Phil Osopher :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 10:30pm

Agree on Quinn trade, Raiderjoe

Wimbley has lots of potential, but for whatever reason he has not been consistently impactful. He is a physical freak of nature. Al will love that. He is coachable....umm Cable???? lol naw he won't care. I will be curious to watch Wimbley this year and see what kind of year he has.

21
by ChicagoRaider :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 9:32pm

The only way Wimbley makes good sense is if Oakland drafts a NT and puts Kelly at DE. That leaves Trevor Scott and Wimbley as the OLBs. But where are they going to get two inside linebackers? The draft? (Assuming Morrison finds a home for a third-round pick)

Playing Wimbley full-time as a 4-3 DE does not make much sense at his weight. And a third-round pick for a passing-situation DE isn't a good investment. That leaves having an OLB as a pass rusher (and not coverage or run?) in a 4-3.

22
by slipknottin :: Sun, 03/14/2010 - 9:50pm

I think he has the ability to play some strongside LB, then move to DE on passing downs.

I thought they already had that guy on the roster in Trevor Scott, but this may give them the ability to move Seymour to DT on passing downs and have two good pass rushers outside.

Wimbley did run a pretty impressive 40 yard dash at the combine a couple years back, so he may have been on the Al Davis radar since then.

35
by princeton73 (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 10:08am

What happened to Wimbley is that he was "found out"--he has ONE move--the duck-under rush from the outside. As soon as offenses realized that's ALL he can do, all you have to do is fall down on him and let his momentum carry him to the ground. He's useless against the run or in pass protection. His sack totals have declined each year.

36
by C (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 10:14am

Talent: When you factored in WR's, TE's, and RB's, the Browns had the least talented skilled position players in the league. Their RB ( pre-harrison) was old and slow. Their WR's were the worst in the entire NFL. The Arizona Cardinals 3-4-5 WR's were Better than the Browns 1-2-3 WR's, and I'd imagine a few other teams were in the same situation as well. I'd rather have the Steelers 3-4-5 WR's than the craptitude the Browns put out there. I'd rather have Austin Collie, Garcon, and a guy off the street than Massaqueef and what ever the Browns have out there.

The thing is with most crappy offenses their O-Lines are really bad, but the Browns are not that case. It was more that their Back/WR's were really really bad to the point that it hindered what you could do on offense.

#18 points out the Browns were throwing all passes close to the line, no creativity in the play calling ( probably because the talent sucked so bad). I think it really proves what a dire situation they had out there.

Derek Anderson had once decent year, I remember some people bought into the hype and picked him high in fantasy football but I never believed. The talent and coaching was there and he was in an ideal situation and pretty much maxed out what he could do.

I picked Brady Quinn over Jamarcus Russell the year they came out and I wouldn't give up on Brady Quinn. He's been injured and in a horrible situation. I'd like to see what he can do in Denver in a more ideal situation instead of throwing 0-5 yard passes to what should be backup NFL WR's.

One thing I have noticed about Brady since he left ND is that he's an even bigger physical specimen. I mean, he was a beast when he came out, but the guys muscles have only grown. It's to the point where his chest/arms/shoulders got so big that it COULD affect his mechanics as he seems to be maxing out his body type. Brady looks like he could play NFL linebacker, and it looks like he's pumped up. That could affect his throwing motion as his shoulders/arms are jacked.

If I was Denver I'd look into Brady toning down the weights some and maybe losing a little bit of muscle. It's funny because people are usually on the other side of that problem.

If you were going to look at the young/unproven QB's to take a chance on, Brady Quinn is one I'd roll the dice on. Giving up a 6th round pick, a FB, and a pick 2 years down the line was a small price to pay for what could be a solid above average NFL starting QB IMO.

37
by commissionerleaf :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 1:18pm

The knock on Quinn coming out of ND was that he was a great pro style college quarterback. Unfortunately, he isn't that big, doesn't have a big arm, and (apparently) isn't that accurate, either. The problem isn't that he would flame out like Russell; the problem is that his ceiling is Chad Pennington. Which is funny, because that's basically what Kyle Orton is anyway; a game managing, accurate passer with a noodle arm and problems going deep over the middle. So in a sense, Quinn is the perfect backup for Orton; a younger, possibly more talented but rough hewn version of what you already have.

Wimbley would be a beast in the right system; he'd be worth a third to Carolina, Miami, or New England. Whether he's worth the Raiders' third is a different issue, and depends on what the Raiders do on defense. I think that the Raiders would do best to run a 3-4, draft a NT, and copy the Jets defense as far as possible.

39
by C (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 1:56pm

Isn't that big?
He's 6'3 and build like a linebacker

Doesn't have a big arm?
Not true

Isn't accurate
This was a legit concern, but Charlie Weis and many NFL scouts believed that it was more of a function of his weak ND receivers running poor timing routes. Brady Quinn has never really had even mediocre WR's in college of the pros.

Intelligence
The one thing that really matters, Quinn seems to be a heady guy, but has played with absolute crap in the NFL. His college coach knew offense, and his ND team performed about as well as you can with the talent that they had. The team was an absolute joke the following year.

I'd like to see what Quinn can do with Mcdaniels ( and maybe Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal) and a decent supporting cast. I think he can be a good player.

Look at what even Brett Favre did in Minnesota compared to the Jets the year before. Yes Brady didn't look good last year but he was in a horrible horrible situation and he still has a lot to learn. Put him with a decent coach in a decent situation and he can exceed expectations ( like Kyle Orton did).

43
by sundown (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 3:06pm

Yes it was horrible in Cleveland. But they had every reason to want Quinn on the field yet he still couldn't win the starting job. And given the situation if they'd thought he was even the equal of Anderson they would have started him, so he must have been clearly worse for almost his entire time there. And they did manage to get one good year out of Anderson, which is one more than Quinn had in the same situation.

Excellent point, though, on his potentially being muscle-bound. I wonder if he didn't just go nuts in the weight room to burn off the frustration from not playing. If they start awarding TDs based on how good your QB looks with his shirt off, the Broncos will be a lock.

47
by zerlesen (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 5:14pm

"But they had every reason to want Quinn on the field..."

Not really, no. If Quinn takes 70% of the snaps in a given season, significant escalators kick in. This is also why McD's assurance that Orton is still entrenched as the starter sounds extremely plausible: it's the difference between paying Quinn 700K and paying him (almost) $7M.

Is this the best way to run a team? Maybe not. But it's the only sensible explanation I've heard for the way the Browns managed their QB situation last year.

49
by sundown (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 6:15pm

You misread my post. We were talking about the Browns having every reason to play him. (You know, the team that drafted him and was desperate for anything to help them turn things around.) But if you think Josh McDaniels is going to sit Quinn if Orton struggles simply for fear of escalators kicking in, you're nuts. McD will be much more concerned with saving his own job at that point than saving payroll.

50
by sundown (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 6:26pm

Oops, you were talking about the Browns. Couple things: Last year is one thing, but they certainly weren't sitting him in his first two years for fear of paying him. And even last year with new management it's tough to believe they'd prolong the train wreck by sitting him if you believed he'd help things--his numbers certainly don't support the notion he was awesome and only being kept off the field by some ulterior motive.

48
by commissionerleaf :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 5:18pm

(1) 6'3" is on the small side for an NFL quarterback. As for being built like a linebacker, well, maybe that's where he should be playing.

(2) Quinn's arm was weaker than Anderson's, but supposedly he was somewhat more accurate. For an NFL starting quarterback, arm strength is a weakness with Quinn.

(3) There was no indication in Cleveland that Brady Quinn was a good quarterback in a bad situation. There was every indication that he was a bad quarterback in a bad situation.

(4) Kyle Orton with his shirt off? Really?

51
by C (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 8:07pm

1. 6'3 is perfectly fine. If you want to say he's an inch under ideal size then I'd call you nit picky. His height never hurt him. Drew Brees Yes... Brady Quinn no.

He was athletic coming out of college with his 4.6 40, he ripped off a 60 yard run vs USC and pro defense in college and only got bigger in the NFL. Quinn was a beast coming out of college and you could notice he's bigger now and it's not flab. If he put on 20 pounds of muscle it wouldn't shock me, and at some point that could effect the way you move your shoulders because he has weight in his shoulders/arms/pecks. It wouldn't shock me if that added muscle took away some range of motion in his shoulders which could hurt his throwing. Just a thought, If I was Mcdaniels I'd talk to the trainer about that one.

2. Arm strength is not a weakness with Brady Quinn. His arm is EASILY stronger than Tom Brady's and the Pats fans at this site defend his arm. If all you are going to watch is Quinn throw 5 yard passes to Browns Backs/Tight ends then I see how you could question his arm strength but just look at him physically for a second. He's not Chad Pennington, he's build more like a LB and then tell me he has a weak arm?

3. How could you tell a good QB in a bad situation? Even so, I don't think many people would say he's " that good" at this point in time, but I think he has a lot of potential. Not even due to his physical attributes, due to his hunger and mental attributes. This guy played very well in college, had 2 legit majors, and is smarter than the average human being and smarter than the average poster at FO. If Brady Quinn was in the business world, I'm positive he'd do very well.... Just like Tony Romo would do well, Donovan Mcnabb would do well, Peyton manning would do well, Drew Brees would do well, and Tom Brady would do well.

Do you think Jamarcus Russell would do well in the business world? Do you think he's smart/Ambitious/studies/tries hard/is presentable/talented/A leader/Likeable/knows what he is talking about? Do you think it eats Jamarcus Russell alive that he's a loser?

Do you think it would eat Tom Brady alive to be a loser? I think Brady Quinn will do what it takes to be good. Whether he becomes good or not is yet to be seen, but I'd take my chances on him over lots of other people.

The whole he doesn't have the size/arm arguments are not true, and the whole he's not good now argument can easily change. Not many NFL QB's are born into their NFL careers "good".

52
by sundown (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 11:39pm

"How could you tell a good QB in a bad situation?"
I don't think you really have to worry about that question--the key point is he was worse than Anderson. Every argument about how bad the team was will always circle back to the fact that he couldn't win the starting job in a situation where the team very much hoped he would. Your argument makes perfect sense if he'd started for three years and amassed poor stats--but he couldn't even consistently win a spot on the field.

53
by tuluse :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 11:46pm

His DVOA this years was twice as good (half as bad?) as Anderson's. Mangini wasn't playing him so they wouldn't have to pay his bonus.

55
by C (not verified) :: Tue, 03/16/2010 - 8:49am

Quinn didn't get playing time as a rookie, as he shouldn't have.

The whole " he didn't get playing time over Derek Anderson" argument has the premise that Eric Maggiano knows what the F he is doing, and many people would argue that's not the case.

56
by sundown (not verified) :: Tue, 03/16/2010 - 2:49pm

And Mike Holgren also doesn't know a good QB when he sees one? And what about the rest of the league who sat by and let him go to Denver for next to nothing?

I don't think it's a terrible move for Denver because it came at such a low price, but it's a longshot at best.

58
by RickD :: Tue, 03/16/2010 - 6:19pm

"Brady Quinn has never really had even mediocre WR's in college (or) the pros."

Sir, you dis Braylon Edwards who, if anything, has definitely achieved mediocrity.

59
by C (not verified) :: Wed, 03/17/2010 - 2:23pm

One talented yet stone handed WR doesn't make an entire WR CORPSE.

38
by zerlesen (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 1:26pm

Well, I feel more relaxed about this than I did about *last* offseason's dramatic QB trade...

It's not possible for Quinn to be worse as a backup than Chris Simms was last year, and (if memory serves) he's cheaper for the time being. If Orton's ankle goes wrong for the third consecutive year, then we'll see if he can potentially be a starter.

Of course, it's possible that this is all the prelude to the inevitable blockbuster Matt Cassel trade. I have long since given up trying to predict Denver's personnel moves under the McD regime.

42
by Brady Quinn (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 2:56pm

Now I'm done.

46
by Johnny (not verified) :: Mon, 03/15/2010 - 3:50pm

So now the Broncos have Kyle Orton and the poor man's version of Kyle Orton (Brady Quinn).

Orton can't throw a pass past 15 yards.

Quinn can't throw a pass past 10 yards.

This situationis hilarious, I love it.

At least Orton can be accurate at times (when passing under 10 yards). Quinn can't even do that.

54
by rots (not verified) :: Tue, 03/16/2010 - 3:14am

Awesome, now we have two QBs who combined cant throw an out route with any velocity. McDouche ran the most conservative offense in the league (non Mangini division) and i dont see that changing w/Quinn.

I cant wait to trade Marshall for Seattle's 14th pick in teh first round and then basically will have exchanged Alphonso Smith who cant even beat out a street FA for dime back duties for a top 5-7 WR. I hated that trade last year and hate it this year too..

Looking like another few years of mediocrity in other words.

57
by sundown (not verified) :: Tue, 03/16/2010 - 2:51pm

And now we've got a Denver sportswriter jumping on the bandwagon predicting Brady will be the starter the next time the Broncos make the Super Bowl. Glad to see the expectations were kept realistic for almost an entire 24 hours before somebody went insane.