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23 Feb 2010
Adam Schefter has a report on Tim Tebow's new throwing motion, including video on the drills he'll be using to change it. Thanks to reader Jimmy for the link.
Posted by: Bill Barnwell on 23 Feb 2010
57 comments, Last at
25 Feb 2010, 9:07pm by
Nice moxie Tim, but some people your age have been practicing this for a decade, and some of those are still practicing it (and will continue to... think Tom Brady throwing over foam fingers held by his line and such at practice). "I've never been asked to shorten or quicken my release and not have a loop in it" is also a bit worrisome... given that you've wanted to go to the NFL since age 5, didn't it ever occur to you that maybe you should set aside an hour or so now and then to practice throwing like a serviceable backup can at least? "With continued work, I will have this down pat by minicamp"... right.
Well, I mean Tony Romo drastically altered his throwing motion starting in his first season, after Parcells told him that throwing the way he'd been throwing it would get the ball batted down at the line 1 in 5 times.
Of course, it took Romo 3 years before he became a starter.
Throwing the way Tebow had been throwing it, he would get the ball stripped before he could throw it 1 in 5 times.
I saw the video and the story by Schefter. I was thoroughly unimpressed by "Tebow 2.0," as Schefter called it.
You have to admit it's an improvement, though, and if he keeps improving he might become a worthy starter in 3/4 years.
Psychologically, Romo was in a place a million miles from Tebow. Didn't even play D1, and actually got *laughed out of the combine* even though he was only there as a volunteer to throw to receivers who were actually trying out. He barely hung on in the NFL for 3 years while contemplating a golf career and busting his ass to fix a throwing motion. Another thing is that Romo's style of "athleticism" works a lot better in the NFL than Tebow's. Romo and Roethlisberger are scramblers in the classic sense, Tebow is more like QB Eagles without the speed or the arm. He has the weight of championships, Heismans, and constant Christ comparisons on his shoulders... just isn't the same as Romo. You could also point to Rivers, who still has a delivery constructed out of a combination of bent up rebar from demo sites and pure ass, but at least knew how to play pro style football when he came in. And that's the thing... fixing Tebow's delivery is probably less important than fixing his ability to read a defense or throw downfield.
I think all of America (excluding all states but Florida) really will be watching Tebow's career with enthusiasm and hope
Why? I don't get ur comment.
I'll be curious and interested. I don't know where you got 'hope' from.
Good one, Phil!
What would be a good place for Tebow to end up if he wants to be a QB? I say Carolina.
Sports talk radio and sports message boards are the killing fields of intellectual discourse.
Same basic skill set as current QB, more stable mentally, probably more coachable.
They don't run the option.
They don't run it in the NFL, either. I was referring to the fact that if he wants to get experience and develop as a pro-style passer, he could get it in the UFL. I don't think he's anywhere close to ready to being an NFL QB. I really don't think he ever will be.
I'm not sure why people hate Tebow so much. It's like people WANT him to fail. I guess maybe it's jealousy or whatever (I know I was jealous of the Pats for a while and wanted them to suck) but I just don't understand the angst directed towards Tebow by many fans of the NFL. Personally, there are more than enough sucky replacement-level players in the NFL that I would rather hope that someone achieves greatness than just become yet another "who cares that this guy is in the NFL because he does nothing." I'd rather see the next Peyton than the next Carr.
If Thom Brenneman had said that five minutes with Eric Crouch would make your life better during the national championship game, there would have been huge backlashes too.
If Urban Meyer and the Tebow family hadn't cultivated this level of media attention, people most likely will just ignore another Heisman winner's marginal NFL prospects.
I think it's at least in part as a reaction to all the hype surrounding the guy.
We've been told for years how great he is, and any skeptics were shouted down. Now The Experts are finally chiming in and pointing out that the emperor has no clothes. The backlash gets focused on Tebow, but it's really caused by Big Media more then anything he did or didn't do.
I would like to see him succeed - simply because greatness is so rare (although I certainly don't expect him to be a successful NFL QB and I'm not suggesting that he has "greatness").
But schadenfreude is deeply ingraned in our culture. Most Americans feel better about themselves when watching others fail - especially when they have so far to fall.
What bothers me is that any criticism of Tebow is considered "omg you want him to fail!" I'd like to see all QBs succeed as much as Manning (provided all CBs played as well as Revis) and raise the level of play in the league. Analysts have been fellating Tebow at uber-Jeter levels for 3 god damn years. I don't think it's unfair to him to respond to that with "you have no evidence whatsoever that he has the mechanics or knowledge of the game to be a good QB. Locker room guy, heart of a champion, etc., etc."
Blame it on the hype. He has been sold to the public as the greatest player in the history of college football, he has been sold as having leadership skills that would make Ghangis Kahn and Patton turn in to beta dogs, he has been sold as having accomplishments that no one in the history of the game has even come close to having, he has been sold as having a skill set that is transcendent and he or those close to him have never tried to dispel this points but instead exploit these points.
His biggest supporters act like he single handily took some team filled with scrubs to 2 championships ignoring that he was a role player in 1 of those teams and that UF is filled with 4 and 5 star recruits in nearly every position. His supporters act like he was bar none the greatest player in history when there are two QB this decade that have more impressive resumes alone, never mind ignoring a Frazier who has a much better claim on being the best in the games history. They ignore that there have been QB with as good if not better in each year he played and ignore that if Dixon did not get injured he would not have a Heisman. Want to argue he was a very good and one of the all time greats of the college game fine that is a valid argument but he is at best, at best, a third pick on a All Decade team at QB behind Lenoirt and Young (both of whom had bigger moments, better winning percentages, more talent).
Now on to how his untangables. His supporters act like no one else wants to win or can lead men like he can which is just silly. There is probably hundreds of players with the same or similar levels of desire and leadership in every college class the difference is the level of talent they have and the level of talent that there teammates have. Its not exactly like he took the Duke football team to the top.
Why dislike Tebow? The same reason as Michael Vick. He's an overrated, overhyped Hybrid player that people talk about like he's the best player ever, but in reality doesn't even deserve to start. However Tebow was a leader, and Vick was the anti-leader, admitting he was lazy and the last guy in the building and the first to leave... and a dog killer.
It's interesting how playing QB in the spread offense does everything to get you into the NFL without actually preparing you to play in the NFL. Tebow could have played in obscurity for some college running a pro-style offense and gone undrafted, but instead he played in a system that actually set back his development but greatly improved his draft prospects.
#16 hit the nail on the head.
It's not that most of us want to see Tebow fail, we just want a realistic appraisal of his skills. I don't follow college football, so until recently about all I heard about Tebow amounted to "he's the greatest human being ever!" That's nice, but as an NFL fan, I want to know what he's like as a draft prospect. Most evidence seems to indicate he's not ready to be an NFL QB. I don't dislike Tebow because of that.
I'll admit I do dislike him a little because his supporters tend to be irrational in their promotion of the guy and try to downplay any potential problems he may have, because "he just wins" or "his story is so great." But that's a separate issue.
I'm not so sure of that. There seems to me to be as much irrational hate as there is iconic worship of the guy. Even some of the most hyped QBs with all the skills don't always make it. While Tebow is not close to a can't miss prospect, I don't think he's a flop waiting to happen either. He's just one of those players with an interesting skill set with potential. It will be interesting to see where he ends up. The wrong team could ruin him regardless. But if he ends up in say Philly or Miami, it could be interesting.
Miami? Do they really need to draft another QB high, after taking John Beck, Chad Henne, and Pat White all in the 2nd round in the last 3 drafts? White in particular seems to be an obvious example of a player who has similar strengths and weaknesses to Tebow. Why would you want two similar project players on your roster, and why would you want to keep using 2nd round picks on projects at the same position?
Because Pat White has the build of a human pipe cleaner. His legs are probably thinner than Jerrious Norwoods, and if you are going to actually use him more than 5 times per game, he's going to get hurt.
If you have Henne for throwing
Tebow & White for running,
a 4th backup because 2 of your guys are at risk of getting hurt. In that case, you count Tebow/White as pseudo running backs, and only carry one less RB.
I don't think Tebow can or will be a good quarterback and it's so obvious to me it boggles my mind that people think he can or should be picked in rounds 1 or 2. It's so obvious to me that's a bad move, but Bill Parcells thinks he IS worth it, and that makes me want to examine him closer, because I strongly trust Parcells judgement. I now want to study Tebow closer as the Parcells endorsement is a big one. My guess is that the theory that a hybrid QB like him can make a more immediate impact ( in a gimmeck offense), with the potential to learn and get better.
I don't think just cause the Eagles took a chance on Vick means they are even remotely interested in a player like Tebow. You take a chance on Mike Vick for a million dollars for 1 year. You don't take a chance on Tebow and draft him in the 1st or 2nd.
I'm not saying Vick was anything more than an average novelty in practice as a starting QB but his athleticism in his prime was absolutely insane. Mike Vick was probably the fastest player on the field, easily the quickest, and could throw the ball 70 yards seemingly without effort. Tebow is a lumbering tight end "natural leader/winner" with a fucked up delivery and a below average arm.
Why does everyone keep pushing this idea that Tebow is a great fit in a wildcat and/or comparing him to Vick? His skill set is nearly opposite of that of Vick and Tebow is not a great runner he runs like a full back not a half back. He can't outrun NFL ends or LB's, he is not even quick enough to constantly beat them to the edge.
What makes Tebow unique, to my mind, is that he's the first running quarterback to come out who might actually be able to take near feature back levels of punishment. If the theory is that you can't run the option (or similar wacky run first college style offenses) in the NFL because you'll get your quarterback killed, Tebow might be the exception. He may not be a good enough passer to be an NFL quarterback, but he's a much better passer than Ronnie Brown, and unlike a Pat White or Mike Vick, he's not going to get snapped in half by the first linebacker who comes along if you use him in that role. He's also a potentially awesome short yardage/goal line weapon. If you want Tebow to play quarterback in something resembling a conventional NFL offense, you're out of your mind. If you want him as a special teamer/offensive jack of all trades, he clearly has value, but probably not enough to justify a second round pick. If you're willing to take the (major) risk of running an offense radically different to anything currently on show in the pros, probably including a four down strategy in most areas of the pitch, with Tebow as its fulcrum, he could have very real and serious value. Tennessee, to my mind, are the team for whom this would make most sense.
Tebow's actually dinged up pretty often in college. I wouldn't say he's more durable than most highly regarded quarterbacks recently, let alone running backs like Beanie or Greene. Compare the level of protection he usually gets with that of someone like Clausen or Stafford, for example.
Um, punishment to the QB is not the reason why spread/option offenses aren't run in the NFL. It's because of speed. Spread/option offenses work in college because most defenses don't have enough fast players to cover everyone, leaving holes for the QB to exploit. You line up players all over the field, try to get defenses out of position, and once you're in motion they don't have the angles or the breaking speed to catch up. It's why spread/option offenses have been great at producing hybrid WR/RB/KR players like DeSean Jackson or Percy Harvin, but terrible at producing QB's (Pat White). Tebow worked well because he had just enough speed to get to the outside edge and was big enough to bowl over anyone that got in his way. He was tailor made for that offense.
The NFL is a totally different story. Remember that BCS title game back in 2001 when Miami destroyed Nebraska? It was because the 'Canes defense was too fast for the Huskers option - their defensive ends were camped in the backfield, and Crouch couldn't even turn the corner most of the time. Almost every starter on that defense would go on to start at least a few NFL games. Every defensive starter in the NFL has to be quick, and Tebow just doesn't have the speed to operate the option in the NFL. It won't fool anyone and the speed is just too much even when you catch guys out of position. No offensive coordinator interested in staying employed would ever run a scheme like that in the pros.
The idea of the Wildcat was to run a gimmeck misdirection offense that could pick up 3-5 yards and put you in more manageable 3rd downs for a Miami team with a weak offensive line.
Conventional offense for Miami with weak O-Line
1st down: Pick up 1-2 yards
2nd down: Pick up 1-2 yards
3rd down and 7, forced to throw
Wildcat offense for Miami with weak O-Line
1st down: Pick up 3-5 yards
2nd down: Pick up 3-5 yards
3rd down and 2, you can run/throw/convert at a higher percentage/keep drives alive
Tebow can work in a wildcat. You don't need some skinny QB with wheels... in fact, teams usually have running backs taking the snap, and Tebow is build like a TE or FB...
People compare Tebow to Vick because they are both ahem " quarterbacks", even though neither are very good at the position, but they excel at non traditional aspects of the position. Neither guy can read an NFL defense or throw very well, but they can both run... Tebow might not pick up a 34 yard run every now and then, but he will be able to turn 2 yard Vick Runs into 4-5 yard Tebow runs when he smashes into defenders like a fullback.
Not quite. The Dolphins's o-line was actually pretty strong in 2008, which enabled them to run the wildcat successfully. It was not a gimmick to cover for a weak offensive line.
Maybe 2008 but pretty sure he's right about 2007. Didn't the coaching staff complain about the interior push between seasons and replace the center? The wingback motion and unbalanced line motion seem like they'd pretty much negate the effect of a bad run blocking center.
The Dolphins O-Line sucked in 2007 and for years before that. The wildcat is designed to freeze guys, make guys stay at home, instead of swarming toward the ball.
2008 was when the Fins won the NFC East, and I didn't even like their line then, but it sucked when they were starting Fumble Pepper, Misses Cleo and the other rejects they threw out there.
You're right, I mixed up my years... replace 2007 with 2008 and 2008 with 2009 in my post.
As a Pats fan I do my best to pretend 2007 didn't exist, so you'll forgive the mistake.
I mean AFC East...
and no, the Wildcat negates some of the poor line play by using misdirection/tricks, instead of lining up and just overpowering the other team. That's the whole point of it. You can get more out of a pooer/average line with those tricks than you can otherwise.
Ronnie Brown ( and Rickey Williams) are also pretty ideal at running it. Ronnie Brown runs it with pretty much QB effectiveness and unselfishness as he's real good at reading his keys and knowing when to keep it and when to hand it off. Miami still runs the wildcat more and better than anybody else and their offensive line still isn't very good. If you are going to bring up some stats of them running the wildcat to PROVE their O-Line is good then I'm not buying it.
Yeah... by "he's right" I mean "you're right" about the Dolphin's line sucking.
Tebow's New Delivery
The best thing that could happen to him is that he gets drafted late on the 2nd day by a good team, and doesn't have a chance of playing for three or four years. If he gets drafted by a bad team, some guys get hurt, and het gets put out on the field quickly, he is likely going to get killed. He'll try running people over like he did in college, and it'll be neurological testing time.
I'm trying to stay Switzerland on this one, but I can't deny the fact that he's a hype.
Of course this guy is not Peyton Manning with Mike Vick speed.
I think he's a pretty good prospect, but not very much more than than a prospect.
But the flaws he has, this guy shows he has the will to work on it, unlike 'prospects' before him.
Without work, this guy will end up like Kyle Boller / Jamarcus Russell (the non-Raiderjoe version), maybe Dilfer or Jeff Garcia, but with work I can see him as a late-career McNabb.
A LOT of work.
I don't get why everyone is so incredibly down on Tebow. He seems to be overvalued, but if the Rams were to take him with say a 4th round pick I'd be happy with that. No one in the draft is a sure thing, some are surer than others but some have more upside. Yes, Tebow has a good chance to be a massive bust, but at the same time if he does sort it out he could be a real threat. But he'll probably go in the 2nd round, which is a massive overvaluing.
I don't think you're any different that the people who are "down" on Tebow.
I think that most people realized that he's worth a fourth-round-or-later flyer; if he flames out, no big deal. However, due to the hype he's received, he'll be a first-day pick, most likely, and could even go as high as #10 overall! That's why so many people appear "down" on him; he's just not worth a pick that high.
There does seem to be a large improvement in the tape shown in the link. There is still a way to go and all this might be pointless if he falls back on his old technique under the pressure of a game. The ball is held closer to is ear and the windmilling motion that he used to employ is gone, he could probably improve the way he drives off his back foot but I imagine he will. I almost find it bizarre that he managed to be so successful in college despite an absurd throwing motion.
What I don't get is why he is supposedly so much worse than your average potential pro QB. Most guys coming from college have some large issues with their throwing motion and I don't see why Tebow's are so bad that he goes into a different category of player. I could point out major question marks on each of the big name QBs in this draft. Philip Rivers still has a very idiosyncratic throwing motion that a player three inches shorter might never suceed with but he is fine. At the very least you know he isn't going to take the approach of claiming he is super successful and doesn't need to change. It also seems he will work his arse off to improve.
My biggest concern would be that his religiosity might piss people off. The throwing motion will be fine with time and effort.
My biggest concern would be that his religiosity might piss people off.
Brian Dawkins literally speaks in tongues to the ball before every game. Doesn't bother anyone.
It takes a tremendous amount of dedication and belief to push yourself to this level knowing that the odds are incredibly stacked against you achieving your goal. I don't think it's a coincidence that professional athletes, especially football players considering the areas of the country that produce many of them, are very often religious.
Again, if you think his faith will bother people take a closer look at guys like Dawkins and Isaac Bruce, etc.
A fair point.
I am (obviously) not an athlete in an NFL locker room and don't know Tebow personally so I am only getting a long lens view of the guy. Having said that I can't remember hearing about any other players who had an advert in the middle of the Superbowl, especially not an advert zeroing in on a very sensitive subject. I honestly have no idea how this might affect an NFL locker room but I take your point that this is hardly a new factor in the NFL.
I think his religion has nothing to do with anything.
How many guys have you seen get on one knee after they score, or thank the lord for the chances they had been given in interviews? Austin Collie is a mormon, do you think anybody on the Colts really cares? Danny Wuerfell ran away to preach christianity, Brodye Croyle's dad runs a semi-religous place for the less fortunate...
In fact, even in college, a lot of teams Pray TOGETHER after games. They get together on the 50 yard line and are thankfull that nobody got truly hurt. Most teams pray BEFORE games.
I highly doubt anybody on the Jaguars, Dolphins, Patriots or whatever other team takes him will take issue that he believes in god. A lot of players in the NFL disproportionatly came from the South East part of the country, the SEC in particular where religion is very big.
Yeah exactly there is probably not a professional league more religious than the NFL just look at Tony Dungy.
What I don't get is why he is supposedly so much worse than your average potential pro QB. Most guys coming from college have some large issues with their throwing motion and I don't see why Tebow's are so bad that he goes into a different category of player
Sure most quarterbacks have issues, they also don't get drafted in the 1st round. Aside from Rivers, the last three quarter backs with serious throwing motion issues who went in the 1st round were David Carr, Byron Leftwich, and Vince Young. I think you underestimate how refined the top prospects are in their mechanics.
Everything that Tebows does with the ball after he takes a snap is a huge no-no in the NFL. He holds it by his waist away from his body, which is going to lead to tons of fumbles. Then he has a windup windmill delivery that is going to lead to more fumbles and tons of bat-downs as D-lineman have plenty of time to judge when to jump. Finally, he isn't even accurate. Leftwich was accurate after his windup.
Remember, until his senior year Tebow was throwing to Percy Harvin and Louis Murphy. That's two NFL starters (Harvin might not technically be a starter but he does play a lot and went in the 1st round so close enough).
So you have a QB with poor accuracy and poor mechanics, who relied on his running ability to make defenses adjust, while throwing the NFL caliber receivers against college defenses. This does not a first day pick make.
Somebody else gets it and doesn't get called racist for calling Tebow a classic case of a bust. Mechanics matter. Tebow played with a lot of talent, a gimmecky system, at a big school, under the spotlight, and got by with athletic ability. He will be yet another failed mobile quarterback.
I never liked David Carr and Byron Leftwich either, but people like to say there are other motivations in who I say won't be any good.
"Finally, he isn't even accurate. Leftwich was accurate after his windup."
Part one not true at all. Look, I don't think Tebow is a good prospect because of his mechanics, but he has a higher career completion percentage (66.4) than Carr, Leftwich and Young. It's not accurate to describe him as inaccurate.
Completion percentage has very little to do with judging an NFL prospect's accuracy.
Leftwich topped 67% completion percentage twice in college, and he was throwing the Darius Watts and Josh Davis not Louis Murphy and Percy Harvin. I realize Tebow didn't have them this past year, but I'm not sure about the quality of his receivers I'll let the NFL figure it out.
1. Who's going to tell C that Tebow is white so he can stop criticizing him?
2. Tebow was a man amongst boys at 18 in the SEC. There shouldn't be a doubt in anyone's mind that he will have the moxie to make it in the nfl. He might not be able to cut it as a qb, but whoever gives him a chance at an affordable rate is going to be happy they did so.
Chris has been somewhat reasonable in his critiscims of Tebow so far; he seems to have questions regarding his decision making and release speed but is hardly unique in this regard (or completely unwarranted). Compared to others around here he is effusive in his praise of Tebow.
I think this whole thing comes down to to what extent he can improve his fundamentals and how quickly. Not suprisingly opinion on this wildly differs.
So I say bad things about Leftwhich, Vick, Campbell and others and you play the race card ( forget the fact that I was right), I said bad things about David Carr, Losman, and others (forget about those calls), and now I say bad things about Tebow and you play the race card? Seriously dude?
If you want me to spell it out NO, I don't think Tebow will be any good, and I wouldn't even THINK of bringing him in to play QB.
- He's over hyped by the ESPN hype network.
- He played in a gimmeck college
- His throwing motion is trash
- His release is too slow
- The way he holds the ball will result in too many fumbles
- He can't read a defense * this is a biggie*
- In college he was carried by dominant physical skills, scheme, and his roster
- He's a classic case of a guy that will be a bust
- Big school, spotlight, "wins", talented teammages, Physical skills, Scheme.
I've been saying it for years, this is nothing new. I wouldn't even THINK to consider Tim Tebow an NFL Quarterback prospect. It's been so friggin obvious it's not even worth talking about. A lot of people here don't believe in Vince Young, and I'd say Vince Young has a much MUCH better chance of being a very good NFL QB and his throwing motion is trash too.
The only reason I even thought about looking at Tebow again was because of Parcells, who I firmly respect.
In my mind, Tebow can be a decent (ideally) Tight End, maybe Fullback ( but he's tall for a FB), or he can run some gimmeck Wildcat Packages. No, I don't think he's good, and yes he's white, and that has nothing to do with my evaluation. It offends me for A) you to even bring that up, and B) for the outsiders not to delete your offensive posts.
and Jimmy, I had to look up the word effusive but no I'm just trying to be honest ( like usual) and I call them as I see them. The fact that people shoot out the name calling because they don't like what I say is immature. Michael Vick a couple weeks ago said himself that he was lazy, but when I said that on these message boards 5 or so years ago I was "mean".
The Vikings need offensive line help, while the Bears, Lions, and Packers have significant defensive concerns.
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