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29 Jul 2011

Running Friday Free Agency Thread

It keeps going and going and going... remember, Friday night is when all these moves actually become official.

1:30 AM EDT
Chicago signs WR Roy Williams (DAL)
Detroit signs CB Eric Wright (CLE)
Houston signs S Danieal Manning (CHI)
Seattle signs DT Alan Branch (ARI)

NFL Network now retracting report that Oakland has cut CB Chris Johnson and G Cooper Carlisle.

10:00 AM EDT
Atlanta releases DT Jamaal Anderson
Atlanta releases WR Michael Jenkins

11:30 AM EDT
Seattle re-signs LB Leroy Hill
Seattle releases OL Stacy Andrews
Chicago signs WR Sam Hurd (DAL)
Miami signs QB Matt Moore (CAR)
New York Jets release QB Kevin O'Connell
Green Bay releases LB Brandon Chillar
Cincinnati re-signs RB Brian Leonard
Pittsburgh releases OT Flozell Adams
Tenneessee signs DT Shaun Smith (KC)

12:15 PM EDT
Denver signs RB Willis McGahee (BAL)
Jacksonville releases DE Derrick Harvey
Jacksonville releases G Vince Manuwai

12:35 PM EDT
New Orleans releases CB Randall Gay

1:10 PM EDT
Atlanta signs DE Ray Edwards (MIN)

2:10 PM EDT
Cincinnati releases DE Antwan Odom
Cincinnati releases DB Morgan Trent

3:00 PM EDT
New England releases DE Ty Warren
New England releases T/G Nick Kaczur
New England releases TE Alge Crumpler
St. Louis signs G Harvey Dahl (ATL)

4:30 PM EDT
Dallas re-signs DE Marcus Spears
St. Louis signs LB Zach Diles (HOU)
Jacksonville signs S Dawan Landry (BAL)
Miami releases LB Channing Crowder

6:15 PM EDT
Philadelphia signs CB Nnamdi Asomugha
Seattle re-signs DT Brandon Mebane

10:30 PM EDT
St. Louis signs WR Mike Sims-Walker (JAX)
St. Louis releases OL Jacob Bell
St. Louis signs CB Al Harris (MIA)
Houston releases QB Dan Orlovsky
Cincinnati signs OL Deuce Lutui (ARI)
Jacksonville signs CB Drew Coleman (NYJ)
Miami signs LB Kevin Burnett (SD)
Chicago signs DE Vernon Gholston (NYJ)
San Diego signs LB Travis LaBoy (SF)
Carolina signs LB Omar Gaither (PHI)
New Orleans re-signs S Roman Harper

Posted by: The Outsiders on 29 Jul 2011

198 comments, Last at 02 Aug 2011, 10:25pm by tuluse

Comments

1
by Mr Shush :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:35am

Eegads! A Texans secondary including at least three legitimate NFL starters! That hasn't happened since 2004.

10
by Jimmy :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:14am

If the Texans leave Manning at SS they will have a pretty good player. Not so assignment sound at FS though. For my mind the money is about right and he fills a big need. Good signing.

40
by Gray Jay (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:59pm

Isn't it going to be Glover Quin moved over to FS though? So the secondary will be: CB1 Joseph, CB2 Kareem Jackson or Brandon Harris or Rashad Carmichael (with one of the three being the nickle back), SS Manning, FS Quin?

I'm as happy and hopeful for the Texans as I've been in years. So delighted they didn't throw money at Cromartie.

69
by Jimmy :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:15pm

The problem the Texans have had for a few years was a terrible secondary. While it is good that they seem to have fixed that I think they would have been better staying in a 4-3. Philips is a good DC but he is getting way more talent to play with on the back end than his predecessors.

80
by Temo :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:04pm

I've always heard the "Phillips is a good DC" comments, but I never saw it with the Cowboys. He ran outdated, inflexible schemes for the most part. And too many players seemed lost on assignments seemingly every game.

83
by Tim Wilson :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:14pm

I think the recency of the 2010 debacle may be coloring your thinking. The defense's ranking dramatically improved from where it was before his tenure, all the way to #2 in the league in 2009. Phillips has improved his team's defensive ranking at each stop (Buffalo, Atlanta, San Diego, Dallas). And if you're just judging on pass rush, he CERTAINLY knows how to get to the QB, as his teams in San Diego and Dallas and their perennial placement in the top 10 in sacks should indicate.

125
by speedegg :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 7:24pm

Huh? Outdated and inflexible? Do you mean the back end or the front? Phillip's 3-4 scheme is different since it's a 1-gap scheme similar to a 4-3 scheme.

Per NFL Matchup, Phillips has 3-4 personnel, but they line up in a 4-3. Each player has a specific gap to attack. It's not a "read and react" scheme, the players need to "read while running to the ball carrier." If one person misses his assignment, then the defense gives up a big play. On the other hand, it's easy to know what went wrong and how to fix it.

I think the Cowboys' secondary, or lack of, was more of a problem than the front 7.

2
by tuluse :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 7:01am

Chicago signs WR Roy Williams (DAL)

Oh dear me, why?

A 30 year old receiver who hasn't broke 40 receptions in 3 years (with a pretty good QB in Romo), has attitude issues, is generally a laughing stock. I just know Martz is going to overuse him and force him the ball too.

This has to be the most depressing signing since Adam Archuleta. I still believe him to be personally responsible for costing the Bears 2 wins in 2007 which might have given them a playoff birth (I don't remember how the tie breakers with the Redskins would have worked out).

3
by Tim R :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 7:40am

To be fair the last time Williams was effective was with Martz in Detroit. Still don't much like it though.

4
by Jonadan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:03am

As a Lions fan I think I'm fine with it, and hope this won't come back to haunt me.

9
by Mr Shush :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:10am

Roy Williams before Mike Martz: 55.7 yards per game
Roy Williams with Mike Martz: 76.7 yards per game
Roy Williams after Mike Martz: 34.6 yards per game

He's only 29. I think there's a reasonable chance he has a big time rebound in production.

13
by zlionsfan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:54am

There have been 31 players in NFL history who had 30 or more receptions at age 29 while amassing no more than 36 yards per game. Of those, two retired after that season (Al Toon and Saxon Judd); Deion Sanders also falls into that category, but he was not used nearly as much as a WR after age 29, so we'll exclude him as well. (One other player, Leonard Thompson, was 29 in 1981 and thus had his 30-year-old season during the 1982 strike season, but he played all 9 games for Detroit, and we're looking at averages rather than totals, so I have left him in the sample. Sam McCullum also turned 30 in 1982, but he played only six games with Seattle and only two as a starter. It's likely the strike affected his role, so I've removed him.)

The remaining 26 are split as close to "down the middle" as is possible: 13 saw a decrease in receiving yards per game the following season and 13 saw an increase. The mean change for the entire sample was -1.4 YPG, and the standard deviation was just over 14 YPG, so a reasonable estimate would be something between 21 and 49 YPG this season.

The best-case scenario is Willie Jackson, who had an 81-catch, 1046-yard season for New Orleans in 2001, increasing his YPG by 30.5. On the other end of the spectrum ... Rashied Davis, who needs no introduction for this group. 5 receptions, 35 yards, a drop of 25.6 YPG at age 30.

If we narrow the group further and look at only those players who changed teams at age 30, we end up with just 8 players. Five of them had a decrease in production - three of the five dropping at least 13 YPG - and only three had an increase, with only one of those improving more than 7 YPG. Best-case scenario is Floyd Turner, who went from the Colts to the Ravens and improved 11.1 YPG ... but on the other end, Frank Sanders left the Cardinals for the Ravens and dropped from 33.3 YPG to 12.1 YPG.

None of this says for certain that Williams will not have a great season. After all, one player did, and Willie Jackson did have a new QB in Aaron Brooks ... but Mike McCarthy was the OC in both seasons, so we can't necessarily point to a significant change in offense as the reason for his revival.

What I think we can say is that it would not be reasonable to expect anything more than a decent jump in productivity. Williams' days of being a headline WR are likely over, and even if he does improve this season, it's worth noting that after that 2001 season, Jackson had only 25 receptions in 2002 and retired at the end of the season.

15
by Southern Philly :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 10:23am

If he has 45 catches he'll be a nice addition. Johnny Knox led all Bears WRs with a paltry 51.

18
by Mr Shush :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 11:10am

Expect might be pushing it, but I would not be at all surprised if Williams had a 1000 yard season. I think something like 60-850-5 is about what I'd expect.

Williams is pretty clearly atypical of that list of comparables: he's at the absolute bottom of the age bracket (December birthday), he produced at a high level earlier in his career, and he's moving back to an environment much more similar to the one in which he was productive. In fact, if you expand your class to include players in their age 30 seasons, you get one recent case that I think is really quite a good comparable: Deion Branch.

28
by Charles Jake (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:11pm

Does anyone know whether the Bears are still looking at Mike Sims-Walker after signing Williams?

31
by mrh :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:21pm

I don't expect huge numbers out of this, but it makes sense.

1. IMO the Bears WR corps is a little thin especially because I believe they really don't see Hester as more than a situational wr. So they need to add someone.

2. Martz' system is hard to learn; wrs often have difficulty in it for a year or so. There is not much time to get a new WR ready.

3. Williams already knows the system.

4. The Bears traded their #2 red zone target from last year (Bennett had 18 RZT, Olsen 15, and Knox 12). Olsen is 6'5", Knox and Bennett are listed at 6'.

5. Williams is 6'3" and led the 2006-2007 Lions in RZT/game. In 2009-2010 combined, he was #2 in RZT in Dallas.

So the Bears acquired a wr that their OC can integrate rapidly, provide some depth if not start, and is a red zone target who the OC has had some past confidence in. My projections are 55/800/7 if he plays 16 games (a big if since he's only done it once in his career). Discounted to 14 games, 48/700/6. The TD number may seem high but is consistent with the per game rate at which Williams scored TDs in DET with Martz, and about what he's had the last two years in Dallas.

34
by CoachDave :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:36pm

A "little thin"? If the Bears WR corps were (before this signing) a person, they'd need to be treated for anorexia.

42
by zlionsfan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 1:26pm

It's possible - 13 players have taken five or more seasons to post another 1000-yard effort, the last two being Joey Galloway and Terry Glenn in 2005, and two of them, Curtis Conway and Mark Carrier, were 30 when they did it - but that accounts for just over 2% of the 600 1000-yard seasons posted to date.

It's also going to take a lot of targets to get him to 1000. Williams has never posted a catch rate higher than 61%, and in 2006, he caught 82 of 151 passes (54%). If he stays near last season's 58%, it might be possible: if he drops back to the 40s, it's going to be very difficult. That actually makes Branch a really poor comparable ... Branch's lowest catch rate, 51% in 2008, is better than four of Williams' seven seasons, and he's broken 60% four times. (Certainly QBs, offenses, and routes can play a factor in this. All four of Branch's 60% seasons came with New England, counting 2010.)

What's interesting is that if you look at FO's similarity scores, the guy at the top of the list for Williams' 2010 season is ... 2000 Willie Jackson, the guy who was about to go off in 2001. There are also guys like Marcus Robinson on the list, though.

It's probably fair to say that we're on the same page, just on different parts of it. There are examples of players who've succeeded in similar situations to Williams', but I'm just not convinced that there are enough factors in his favor to lead him to a breakout season this year. (This is completely separate from being a Lions fan, btw ... I'm looking at this simply from my impression of his play as a somewhat-neutral fan and from what I can glean from data.)

11
by Temo :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:39am

I dunno, could the Braves use a WR with good hands and decent athleticism who can't run a precise route if his life depended on it? Because that's what he is.

12
by Sophandros :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:45am

He'd be a great center fielder for them.

-------------
Sports talk radio and sports message boards are the killing fields of intellectual discourse.

16
by Temo :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 10:39am

Seriously.

/MLB deadline + NFL Free Agency is just too much for me

21
by jackgibbs :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 11:22am

as a jay cutler fan, I love it. as stated roy williams was very good with martz until he got hurt. and that was with kitna and sundry forcing him the ball. I think Roy compares favorably to brandon marshall, and jay cutler had a pretty good time with him

23
by Nathan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 11:31am

You think Roy Williams is better than Brandon Marshall?

24
by Mr Shush :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 11:52am

Yeah, I mean, strewth, I've been defending Williams in this thread, but that's crazy talk.

26
by TomC :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:08pm

Language, please! This is a family thread.

30
by jackgibbs :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:19pm

no, no, no! sorry, I shouldn't've said "compares favorably" and just said compares. what I meant was they have the same build and skill set, and williams is just the type of receiver that can make jay cutler look good. Roy's still got the dropsies, so he'll probably never catch 21 in a game, but it's silly to me to think he doesn't improve this offense, or half the offenses in the league for that matter.

people hate him because he got paid like an elite receiver, which he's not, rather than the good receiver that he is

70
by Jimmy :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:22pm

I think it makes some sense in terms of; the Bears have little risk in a one year deal, Williams has been productive in this offense, the Bears are going to be using more WRs (no Olsen), there is no guarantee that he will even crack the top three WRs, he offers a different type of target especially in the red zone.

I don't mind the signing, I just wish Angelo would get a new starting guard.

94
by TomC :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:51pm

FYI, the Trib is reporting that the Bears have signed Hanie, Roach, and A. Adams; that Carimi has agreed to terms; and the Forte is at camp and, so, apparently not holding out. All very good news from a keeping-the-team-intact perspective, now they've got to sign Kreutz, at least one FA O-lineman, and a starter-quality LB, and I'll be semi-satisfied.

99
by tuluse :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 5:05pm

I was going to ask why a linebacker, but I didn't realize both Tinoisamoa and Roach were free agents. I would be happy bringing back either of them. Apparently the Bears are looking at Durant from Jacksonville. I don't know anything about him.

104
by Marko :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 5:42pm

Durant agreed to a deal with Detroit a day or two ago (which now seems like it was two months ago).

154
by tuluse :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 10:53pm

Well Bears re-sign Nick Roach, who I find perfectly acceptable as the 3rd LB.

168
by TomC :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 2:46am

I'm not sure about Roach as a starter. I also thought the word was the Bears wanted to bring him back as a backup and ST guy while signing a free agent to start.

170
by tuluse :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 4:32am

I haven't been following the rumors too closely. As a plan b roach is fine to me. He'll probably see the field less than the nickel back, and the state of the secondly concerns me alot more than who plays lb next to Briggs and Urlacher.

164
by c0rrections (not verified) :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 1:01am

But wait you got Sam Hurd too! Picking up the 3rd and 4th best Cowboy receivers. That has to be exciting!

169
by tuluse :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 4:28am

I'm actually way more excited for Hurd than Williams. I really don't like Roy Williams, his attitude, approach, production, and play style are all the opposite from what I want in a football player.

At worst Hurd will be a useful special teamer.

186
by c0rrections (not verified) :: Sun, 07/31/2011 - 3:05am

I definitely wouldd be more excited about Hurd. He's a great special teamer and can probably play WR given a chance.

5
by trill :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:16am

Detroit is shopping in the bargain bin, but Wright is still an upgrade over what they had. He's young, I bet they'll coach him up a little.

14
by ChicagoRaider :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 10:14am

With that defensive line, he is getting help on every play. That alone should lead to improvement.

6
by Nathan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:41am

Nothing about VY to Philly here yet? I guess it's not 100% a done deal?

7
by eagler7 :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:04am

It's in Thursday's thread...

8
by Nathan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:08am

You're right... in retrospect I'd have preferred one big thread.

17
by Temo :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 10:40am

Chicago also signed Sam Hurd, who Cowboys fans will miss more than Roy Williams.

He's an excellent special teamer.

25
by Charles Jake (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:07pm

Good pickup. If he really is a good ST'er, I won't miss Rasheid Davis one little bit.

29
by TomC :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:17pm

"He can play," former Cowboys receivers coach Ray Sherman told the Tribune. "He has a great work ethic and is smart. Tough. He has no fear. He's a great special teams player. He probably was the best special teams player there[.]"

Good enough for me. He's also six years younger (and much bigger) than R. Davis. The Williams signing is a gamble with big upside but huge risk; this one seems like it's nothing but good.

41
by Temo :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 1:02pm

You're going to love him covering punts.

Did well on kicks too, but don't know how important that will be now with the rule changes.

19
by trill :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 11:11am

LOL WUT

20
by Temo :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 11:16am

I like him.

22
by trill :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 11:26am

He's not awful but the signing just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't see him as an upgrade over Henne; they've got different skill sets but their potential seems to be about the same: good backup, fair-to-middling as a starter. They're gonna have to start Henne, as there's probably not time for a fair "camp battle" with the compressed offseason.

With the quality of their o-line, MIA really should have gone after Orton (I'm assuming they got outbid for Kolb). He's already got a rapport with their best receiver, he's shown the ability to produce in several different systems, and though he lacks elite arm strength it's not like MIA has a WR to really stretch the field anyway.

Perhaps this signing doesn't preclude an Orton trade, and they got Moore for cheaper than I assume they did. They do have the roster space for all three, but between this and the Bush trade I'm wondering how much more money they're planning to spend this offseason.

27
by Noah of Arkadia :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:10pm

I for one, think Henne can be a pretty decent QB. I'm fine with Orton as long as he's brought in to compete for the job, but not if he's going to cost a fortune plus a long-term commitment.

From that perspective, I love the Moore signing. It sends a message of "moving on". If the Broncos and Orton want to make a deal, they'll both need to lower their demands. If not, the best thing for the team is to address other needs.

WTG, Ireland!

32
by Yesimadolphinsfan (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:33pm

Haven't seen this on Twitter. Most I saw was someone from ESPN saying "Don't count out Moore to MIA". I would think if this happened there would be more discussion of it.

36
by Yesimadolphinsfan (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:38pm

And now Adam Schefter is tweeting it. Dammit. I really wanted Orton.

33
by trill :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:34pm

Henne's problems seem to be 100% mental. Forcing throws, holding the ball too long, etc. I haven't seen a lot of him on tape but he's got the tools to do the job for sure. Hopefully someone in the organization can tighten up Henne's above-the-shoulders game.

Good point on the Moore signing as leverage with DEN. Looks like Orton might be staying with the Broncos for another year.

38
by Noah of Arkadia :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:51pm

Fans are all doom 'n gloom about Henne, but objectively speaking, I don't see any reason why he couldn't improve. He's a young guy, he can get better. I hear a lot of "his faults are not correctable" in Dolphin boards, but as you say, he has talent, and lack thereof is the only thing that's not correctable as far as I know.

With Henning gone, a better OL, hopefully better INT luck, no more play-action, and 1 more year of experience, I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do.

44
by sundown (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 1:43pm

"Looks like Orton might be staying with the Broncos for another year."

I just can't imagine that happening because he's going to make too much to be their backup. They need to figure out if Tebow can play and the fans will absolutely go nuts if Tebow isn't the starter. And making things even dicier, reports out of yesterday's camp had Orton looking way better than Tebow. I think they need to move him just so the Tebow experiment can be played out.

46
by justanothersteve :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 1:59pm

Just speculating here. If Orton doesn't go to Miami, where else could he go? Buffalo? Seattle's island of misfit quarterbacks? Maybe the Colts if they are seriously worried about Manning. Ideas?

49
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:03pm

If the 49er's lose out on Asomugha, they should definitely make a play for Orton. They want to make the mistake of going with Alex Smith again, their loss, but they should at least make him earn the job by beating out a real QB. I have a feeling he wouldn't though...

54
by trill :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:26pm

After spending a high 2 on the Angry Ostrich and re-upping with Smith, I can't see SF sending any picks/players to DEN for a QB, especially with what they're probably asking for Orton. Harbaugh has plenty of time to develop through the draft; he'll let the chips fall this year, get his system installed and staff straight, and save his cap space and draft picks for a franchise QB.

60
by trill :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:47pm

I doubt he gets any interest from BUF; not a good fit for their system and they've already got two QBs battling for the starting job. Seattle makes more sense; they're willing to spend the money, but it's already a little crowded at the position with Jackson and Whitehurst, who are both slated to make #2QB money this year.

62
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:52pm

Well, going to Seattle makes sense in that Orton is clearly better than Whitehurst or Jackson, but it makes no sense in terms of acquiring Jackson this year and acquiring Whitehurst last year.

65
by Noah of Arkadia :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:07pm

Looks like the Broncos got themselves in a bind

107
by sundown (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:18pm

Yeah, I think they held out for too much thinking Miami wouldn't call their bluff. This will be interesting. The fans have largely turned on Orton in Denver (no real reason other than the losing, which I can't pin on him given their terrible defense and all the other issues McDaniels created) and were ready to see Tebow.

I'm not at all convinced Tebow can beat out Orton in a fair competition, so they may be forced to just hand Tebow the ball to see if he can make it in the NFL. But that would leave them with an expensive backup in Orton. I don't get the impression he's loved enough in the locker room for there to be an uprising, but if Tebow struggles, they'll be in an uncomfortable position, because Orton may not be spectacular, but he's solid.

133
by BroncosGuyAgain :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:34pm

The Broncos have not asked for the moon for Orton -- the steepest report I've seen is a 2 and 3. The real obstacle is Orton's contract. He is due to make almost $9 million this year, which is not inconsequential. The Dolphins don't want to pay that, and Orton will only restructure if he gets a multi-year deal with more than that guaranteed. Taking a pay-cut for the privilege of being a one-year transition guy is not in his best interests.

Two earlier posts deserve response. First, as to the Broncos putting themselves in a bind, let's be clear: Josh McDaniels put the Broncos in a bind. He signed Orton to the extension that includes the aforementioned salary, and he traded into the first round to draft a quarterback who simply cannot play at the NFL level.

Second, as to Orton being an over-priced back-up, he is only such if you consider Tim Tebow an actual quarterback. He is not. Orton is, by far, the best quarterback on the roster, which is faint praise indeed. His competitors are, possibly, the two worst quarterbacks in NFL history not named "Rusty". I favor trading Orton only because I favor trading anybody over age 25; that is how awful the current roster is.

157
by Marcus C. (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 11:30pm

Dude, lighten up. You don't seem to like anybody on your team. Orton has averaged 3700 yards, 20 TDs and 10 INTs over the past two season playing for a gawdawful team with no defense, no running game, and pretty much no coach. His numbers are better than he actually is as a player, but he's a legit NFL QB and his salary isn't crazy for a decent starter. It seems the Dolphins would rather save a few bucks and go with Henne/Moore. Best of luck with that. Sometimes you get what you pay for.

As for Tebow, the kid has played 3 games in his career and one was darn good. Doesn't mean he'll have lots more at that level, but he's definitely an "actual quarterback." Brady Quinn has never taken a snap for your team, so you apparently pegged him from his single season playing for another gawdawful team in Cleveland. I guess you're only into fast starts, meaning you must have beein driving the McDAniels bandwagon when he started out 6-0, huh?

188
by BroncosGuyAgain :: Sun, 07/31/2011 - 5:33pm

Wow, this is quite the litany of false accusations.

First, I like several players on the team, including Orton. I did not say anything negative about him in my post. I did not say that he was overpaid, only that the his salary is not inconsequential, and I stand by that as a very reasonable statement.

As for Tebow, I'm not sure which of his starts you considered "darn good", but I saw every game he played, including preseason and the six he did not start, and saw nothing to make me think he can play quarterback in the NFL. It doesn't matter, as it is completely subjective. I am not damning Tebow for lack of a fast start; after his college career, I did not think he was an NFL quarterback (an opinion shared by many, with numerous draft analysts suggesting he was only draftable if he were willing to change positions), and nothing I've seen from him has changed my mind.

Brady Quinn is entering his 5th NFL season and is nearly 27 years old. My opinion is not based on a "single season" but on a mediocre college career and a four-year professional career of failure.

As for my "fast start" tendencies, please produce one positive post I made regarding McDaniels, before, during or after the 6-0 start. Simply, you cannot. McDaniels was an easy read, so obviously overmatched in his first few weeks on the job, that the remainder played out as obviously and inevitably as a Lifetime movie. The Matt Cassel debacle, the scouting department fiasco, the power-grab, the atrocious draft -- any reasonable observer saw an incompetent megalomaniac well before the first regular season snap. So, no, I was not driving the McDaniels bandwagon, but thanks for the series of utterly unsubstantiated accusations.

173
by Noah of Arkadia :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 9:57am

You're saying the Broncos were prepared to take less than they wanted in order to get rid of Orton and he blocked the trade by refusing to restructure on the terms offered, right?

If so, what can the Broncos do? Either commit to him long-term and trade Tebow, release him, or use him this year and let him walk in the offseason when he becomes a FA.

187
by BroncosGuyAgain :: Sun, 07/31/2011 - 4:33pm

I'm not saying the Broncos were willing to take less than they wanted, only that what they wanted was not over-the-top silly. Based on reporting, I don't know how close the two teams might have been in draft pick compensation, or if things even got that far. There does seem to be agreement that the contract situation was a real obstacle.

88
by tuluse :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:34pm

To throw out a darkhorse candidate, what about the Bengals?

158
by Marcus C. (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 11:34pm

If Cincy would agree to trade him, Palmer for Orton would be a good trade.

174
by Noah of Arkadia :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 9:58am

It would still leave the Broncos with the Tebow issue.

189
by BroncosGuyAgain :: Sun, 07/31/2011 - 5:35pm

The Broncos have a "Tebow issue" as long as he is on the roster. Fans want to know if he can play. NFL people already know the answer.

35
by tonic889 (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:38pm

Derrick Harvey, drafted 7th overall, in 2008. Three seasons, 8 sacks, now cut. Officially a bust. Think Jacksonville would have rather drafted Jerod Mayo, DeSean Jackson or Joe Flacco with that pick?

37
by tonic889 (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:45pm

Oh, AND, they traded two 3rd picks and 4th round pick to Baltimore to draft Harvey. Ouch.

39
by Travis :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 12:55pm

It could have been worse. Harvey went two picks after Vernon Gholston and his zero career sacks.

141
by dada (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:21pm

I remember that draft. I remember texting a friend of mine who is a JAX fan (believe it) and he was very excited about the guy, and was pissed off at the talking heads in NFL Network or ESPN that were giving JAX a bad grade on that pick for giving too much in return.

I agreed with them, that class of DEs were severely overrated.

43
by trill :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 1:33pm

Yuck. As a Saints fan, I hate to see them stockpiling all this talent on both sides of the ball. NFCS is going to be an interesting place for the next few years.

45
by justanothersteve :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 1:48pm

Edwards is a good player. But he's been helped by having really the Williams Wall next to him and Allen on the other side. I think he'll be exposed in Atlanta. Edwards will still be ok, but nowhere near the money they'll be paying him with an aging Abraham on the other side. At least Blank can afford it.

47
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:00pm

Yeah, Edwards is the most inexplicably over-rated free agent of the year. Has anyone in the history of watching football ever said "Oh, that Ray Edwards, you really need to account for him, he's such a game-changer." It's always suspect when a guy has a career year in a contract year, let alone when he does so playing alongside 3 guys that will probably end up involved in Hall of Fame discussions...

66
by bernie (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:09pm

I'd be very surprised if any of Jared Allen, Kevin Williams or Pat Williams garners any serious Hall of Fame consideration. They are all good players, but they've really done nothing so spectacularly amazing that you scratch your head in wonder at their achievements. Especially considering if all 3 were truly hall of fame worthy, they should have shown a hell of a lot more dominance playing alongside each other than they have.

77
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:50pm

I'm not saying any are slam dunks, but the Williams wall is the consensus best DT duo of the past 20 years. Their run-stopping is all-time legendary and all the stats back it up. Many people will be making their case when they retire. Allen is one of the pass-rushers of this decade, certainly Top-3 - and he's great against the run. If he continues the way he has, he will most certainly be a very reasonable candidate. Maybe none of them will get in, but all 3 will be brought up...

96
by trill :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:54pm

Agreed on Allen. His backside pursuit ability is so good that most teams slice the H or Y to cut him off; otherwise he chases RBs down in the backfield. I don't wade into HOF arguments but that dude is just a stellar all-around player at the position.

82
by Southern Philly :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:10pm

Charles Johnson would be that career year in a contract year guy. Edwards put up 8 and 8.5 sacks the last two years, so at least he was consistent.

But I'm with you, he was the 4th Musketeer on the Vikings d-line, so his actual talent level is questionable. He'll be helped this year by having Abraham on the other side however.

48
by speedegg :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:00pm

I bet the Packers, Bears, and Vikings breathed a sigh of relief that Edwards isn't a Lion.

79
by zlionsfan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:02pm

It's true, the last thing the NFC North should want to see is yet another speed rusher in Detroit. There just isn't really a good spot for him: the Lions already have a Purdue DE in Cliff Avril, and a younger one at that. (At least for now ... it's possible that Avril could become an unrestricted FA next season, as it seems that talks about a contract extension are a lower priority for the Lions, given that Avril is a restricted FA.)

52
by trill :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:18pm

True, I always saw Edwards as more of a strong-side anchor that can take advantage of one-on-one blocking vs the pass. But a guy like that is valuable; not "top-tier pass-rusher" valuable, but an important piece in the kind of defense ATL wants to play. They zone blitzed a lot more than they wanted to last year because their 4-man rush wasn't getting home. If Abraham has anything left in the tank they'll be pretty formidable this year, especially against the less-than-stellar line play of CAR and TB.

115
by Peregrine :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:41pm

Falcon fan here, and it's unanimous that this was a very good signing, and the money makes it a no-brainer. Jamaal Anderson - who we picked at #8 in 2007 ahead of Willis and Revis - had 4.5 sacks in four years and a cap figure of $5 million. I don't know much about Edwards, but sight unseen he's a big upgrade on Anderson for about the same money. Eight sacks and a proportionate number of hits and hurries would be just fine; he doesn't have to rack up 15 sacks for it to be a good deal.

50
by Nathan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:09pm

I'm trying to think of an analogy of what it must be like to be Kyle Orton... the closest I can think of is being really good friends with a bunch of girls who "just don't see you that way"... even though you're smart and funny and good looking. And you're just like what's WRONG with me? What more do I have to do to get someone to like and want me?

51
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:17pm

It's even worse than that, it's like dating a girl and being a really great boyfriend... but then she breaks up for you for no real reason, doesn't herself seem clear as to why she's moving on. And then the same thing happens again with your next girlfriend. That girl moves on to a different guy that she doesn't even seem that crazy about and has some pretty obvious problems that may or may not wreck the relationship... and all Orton ever did was be good to her.

53
by Nathan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:25pm

You're right. And also, even when you're together all her friends are constantly whispering in her ear "that guy SUCKS, you should totally dump him."

55
by jackgibbs :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:26pm

it's obviously the neck beard

146
by SackSEER :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:54pm

Think of Kyle Orton as that TV you bought at Best Buy when you had a bit of cash, but not too much. Sure, the TV doesn't have many bells and whistles, and the screen is not small, but not exactly big either--it has HD and is dependable to the max.

Now let's say you get a new, higher paying job and you're feeling fancy. You stroll into a Sharper Image and, in a fit of consumer fervor, you buy what a guy in a polo shirt tells you is the latest and greatest in television technology. So you take this 60" monstrosity home and set it up, and it has all the extra features as promised: it plays music and DVDs, it gives you updated weather reports, and even microwaves leftovers. It does everything except, you know, actually let you watch TV. Rather, it is constantly asking you to install software updates, complete with menu screens that promise that all of the Sharper Image engineers are working tirelessly to improve your new TV's software and make it the best TV of TVs. Despite the TV's bluster, all improvements are marginal, and its constant statements regarding its potential greatness only add to your overall annoyance. Moreover, because there is so much going on inside, it is extremely slow to change from one channel to another--sometimes it takes more than five or six seconds. It takes so long that you limit your channel surfing to only two or three favorite channels, but even that doesn't totally fix the problem. What's worse is that when the TV does occasionally get it all together, the picture looks really, really good, giving you just enough sugar so that you hold out hope that it will someday live up to its promise. However, you really could have just saved yourself a lot of misery by chucking the new piece of junk and reinstalling the TV that was fine in the first place.

-----------
Yes, SackSEER has become self-aware.

155
by Noah of Arkadia :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 10:59pm

Yes, Orton is better than Vince Young.

56
by TomC :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:27pm

What puzzles me is that McD et al. thought highly enough of Orton to insist he be part of the Cutler trade. He comes to Denver and puts up sick numbers, apparently validating the coaching staff's opinion of him. Then they get Tebow fever, and Orton is all of a sudden chopped liver (apologies for the mixed metaphor).

To continue Nathan's analogy, it's like this girl comes on really strong to you, and you start dating and it's going awesome, then she dumps you for some flavor-of-the-month doofus with a hipster mustache.

57
by Nathan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:31pm

...I think it's more like she dumps you for a fratty bro who drives one of those new issue muscle cars. Like a Challenger or a Camaro.

59
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:44pm

I think it's more like she chooses a weirdly boyish religious nut who is constantly prosthelytizing.

93
by tuluse :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:50pm

This thread is hilarious.

95
by TomC :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:54pm

cb, at that point it's not really an analogy anymore. And does prosthelytizing involve a Bible and an artificial limb?

103
by Marko :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 5:39pm

Yes. In fact, the original screenplay for The Fugitive suggested that the one- armed man was prosthelytizing.

Dr. Richard Kimble: . . . . When I came home, there was a man in my house. I fought with this man. He had a mechanical arm and a Bible. You find this man. You find this man.

101
by sundown (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 5:35pm

McDaniels ran hot and cold on guys his whole time in Denver. Don't forget that less than a month before the draft he sent Peyton Hillis to Cleveland for Brady Quinn. For about 10 minutes it looked like he might be planning on having Quinn compete with Orton, then he goes and drafts Tebow and Quinn never plays all year. That would be in addition to him initially wanting to sign Cassell, which is what caused the blow-up with Cutler in the first place.

But living in Denver, I can tell you that a large contingent of fans desperately want to see Tebow as the starter. They think they've seen Orton's best, that it wasn't all that great, and they want to see if Tebow has what it takes. I kind of doubt Tebow will succeed, but I do see that they need to answer that question. The most interesting part for me, and what I think is eventually going to upset the most diehard of the Tebow fans, is that Elway and Fox seem kind of lukewarm to him. Usually, young QBs get a bit of time to get established, but being they didn't draft him, I think they may be pretty quick to declare the experiment a failure. I think Tebow needs to pick up things VERY quickly if he wants to be in Denver's plans past this season.

105
by Theo :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 5:55pm

To my Kyle Orton is the guy who shows up at the party but no one really knows him, he's not the popular one, neither is he pretty or rich, but he goes around banging every loose chick that walks around. Not the prettiest chicks that everyone is after, but the ones that at least score a 6+.
Sure he has another girlfriend every other semester, but you don't hear him complain, he shakes the breakup off and moves on to the next party; the next chick with the short hair but great body. He's the guy your girlfriend isn't safe with.

58
by jmaron :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:38pm

I think the Vikings made a big mistake not locking this guy up. People forget how young Edwards is (26 next year). Here's a list of the top ten sackers of all time plus Ray Edwards and the sacks they accumulated by
25 years of age.

Smith,B 44.5
Dent,R 37.5
White, R 31
Edwards 29.5
Oneil, L 29
Taylor, L 28
Randle 22
Strahan 18
Taylor, J 16.5
Greene, K 13.5
Doleman 3.5

61
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:49pm

These numbers are completely misleading and appear to be pointless. How can you compare what Reggie White did in 2 seasons to what Edwards did in 5? Reggie White had 18 SACK IN A SINGLE SEASON when he was 25. The most Edwards has ever had is 8.5. I'm not even sure what your post is trying prove it's so ludicrous.

71
by Floyd (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:29pm

I don't think the poster is trying to say that Edwards is comparable to the all-time greats. I think the list is to show that Edwards is in some good company with his career sacks so far. And that the Vikes probably screwed up in not retaining him.

63
by Tim Wilson :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 2:55pm

Sure...but there are lots of guys who had MORE sacks than Edwards by age 26 who did not end up being all-time greats. Not sure this is a good metric.

I think the reason you don't get too concerned about an Edwards signing is that he plays the run well, so if he doesn't end up getting to the QB at an elite level then you're still getting some production, unlike somebody like Tamba Hali or Edwards' old linemate Allen who can ignore the run sometimes and are much much less useful if they can't get to the QB.

My concern on Edwards would be this: If you can't notch double-digit sacks playing next to Kevin Williams, Pat Williams, and Jared Allen...are you ever going to be able to do it? It's possible, sure, because he's just hitting his physical prime, but it's a little worrisome.

159
by jmaron :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 11:38pm

Sure...but there are lots of guys who had MORE sacks than Edwards by age 26 who did not end up being all-time greats.

I have no idea if this is true or not, but I really doubt that it is true.

162
by Shattenjager :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 12:34am

Here's the list: http://pfref.com/tiny/S5pxh

I would say that at least Tim Harris, Shawne Merriman, Jim Jeffcoat, Greg Townsend, Jevon Kearse, Kevin Carter, Charles Mann, Jeff Bryant, Reggie Camp, John Abraham, Burt Grossman, Lee Williams, Dan Wilkinson, Clyde Simmons, Sean Jones, Dexter Manley, Peter Boulware, Chris Mims, Alonzo Spellman, and Garin Veris are short of all-time great. That's more than half the list before you even get to whether, say, Simeon Rice is an all-time great pass rusher.

It's probably arguable on quite a number of the players on that list, but I think it's undoubtedly true that there are a number of players who had more sacks through age 25 than Ray Edwards and ended up well short of all-time great.

163
by tuluse :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 12:36am

If they get another Abraham, Kearse, or Spellman, I bet they'll be pretty happy honestly.

167
by Shattenjager :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 2:33am

Definitely, but the question presented was whether there were many who had more sacks than Edwards to the same age and ended up short of being an all-time great.

If you set the bar at "good" or "useful," there aren't a lot of guys on that list who don't qualify.

172
by chemical burn :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 9:47am

The point is, the stat of "sacks by the time they are 26" is 100% useless and stupid. Reggie White had 2 NFL seasons: one of 12 sacks and one of 18 sacks by the time he was 26. To compare that to Edwards' 5 seasons that reach a slightly higher total is so fucking dumb it hurts. There's no legit comparison going on whatsoever. You picked the seemingly one stat in the universe that makes him look impressive and twisted it as far as you can go to make it fit your concept of "Ray Edwards, really great prospect."

You can't compare the raw, cumulative total of what any of these players did when some of them are 10 sack guys who don't break out until they see the field their sophmore year after having entered the league at slightly older age than Edwards and some are are legends who only played 2 or 3 seasons in the NFL by age 26 but got double digit sack totals. Edwards is an outlier in this group in that he's one of the few to have plodded along getting decent single digit sack number after having entered the league at an early age. Stop comparing his "age 26" sack totals to Jevon Kearse and Reggie White - it's moronic.

178
by Shattenjager :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 11:58am

"The point is, the stat of 'sacks by the time they are 26' is 100% useless and stupid."
That's your point, to which I did not respond. jmaron's post to which I was responding was taking issue with Tim Wilson's statement "Sure...but there are lots of guys who had MORE sacks than Edwards by age 26 who did not end up being all-time greats." Tim Wilson's statement is demonstrably true and can be simply backed up, which is all I was doing.

"Reggie White had 2 NFL seasons: one of 12 sacks and one of 18 sacks by the time he was 26."
Go do a search on here and see who said this the last time someone brought it up on FO.

"You picked the seemingly one stat in the universe that makes him look impressive and twisted it as far as you can go to make it fit your concept of 'Ray Edwards, really great prospect.'"
Sure, because I'm the one who did that. I forgot about how I had that other account and sign in as jmaron instead once in a while for no apparent reason.

"Stop comparing his 'age 26' sack totals to Jevon Kearse and Reggie White - it's moronic."
jmaron proposed the use of this metric, which I agree is not very useful. Tim Wilson pointed out a possible flaw in the results of the metric, namely that "there are lots of guys who had MORE sacks than Edwards by age 26 who did not end up being all-time greats" and jmaron questioned whether these results were indeed accurate. I did a search to find whether Tim Wilson's simple statement is true, which it definitely appears to be. It is not by any means a defense of this metric and frankly it's "moronic" to think that it is.
The fact that I said that there aren't many on that list who weren't at least "useful" is not a defense, either. It's an empirical observation of the results of doing that pfr search.

182
by chemical burn :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 1:29pm

So we agree: there's a list of DE's from the past several decades selected by a pointless methodolgy that proves absolutely and most of the DE's on that list were at least ok. And Edwards is somewhere on that list.

Aren't engaging the empirical facts of this debate a giant waste of time? The only point to be made in this debate "sacks by age 26 proves nothing."

193
by jimm (not verified) :: Tue, 08/02/2011 - 4:10pm

you certainly seem to throw around terms like "stupid" and "moronic" rather casually. I know I am neither, nor do I think the point I was making was moronic or stupid. You might have tried a word like incomplete, or perhaps not particularly useful.

I don't spend my life running studies of football players. From time to time I take quick looks at stats that I think show a potential trend.

Production in any sport by a certain age is an important metric. While my quick little sample may not be useful enough to provide a complete analysis, it is a potential clue that Ray Edwards might be a pretty darn good player.

I try to learn something from this site, from both the writers and the comments. I add thoughts I think interesting or useful. But it really is trying to have people like yourself heave insults at comments.

194
by jmaron :: Tue, 08/02/2011 - 4:20pm

I stand corrected. That's a cool site. Can anyone run such queries?

By the way - another poster suggested I compared Edwards to the all time greats...which wasn't my point. I just personally thought having watched Edwards for the past few years that he was a pretty darn good DE. So I just looked up the top 10 sackers and compared the totals to lend some support to the idea. Had I known how to dig up the information you did it would have tempered my enthusiasm quite a bit.

Thanks for the info.

196
by tuluse :: Tue, 08/02/2011 - 4:29pm

Just head to the play index tools and you can run all sorts of searches.

197
by Mr Shush :: Tue, 08/02/2011 - 8:14pm

Oh, PFR's a spectacularly useful site. It can sometimes take a little while to work out how to ask it what you want, and there are a few things which I'd like it to be able to do that I don't think it can (like ask for individual seasons by players with a given level of career performance, or a given level of performance in some other specified season or seasons) but it's still extremely cool.

198
by tuluse :: Tue, 08/02/2011 - 10:25pm

Also, specific games by specific players either based on some performance threshold or by opponent would be nice.

68
by JoeHova :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:13pm

Reggie White also had 23.5 sacks in 2 seasons in the USFL by that time. Of course, he had only been out of college for one year by the time he joined the Eagles so he would have only had 1 additional NFL season but it's safe to estimate he would have had double digits in sacks.

And Edwards gets an advantage because he's been in the league 5 years. White put up his numbers in 2, Smith did it in 4, Dent did it in 3, Taylor did it in 3 (he had been in the league 4 years but they didn't keep track of sack numbers his first year). It would be more relevant to compare those guys through their first 5 years in the league or to compare Edwards to other guys who came into the league at 21.

75
by andrew :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:38pm

As noted in one of the guest columsn, Ray Edwards has never seen a double team playing alongside the Williams Wall and Jared Allen. Yes, he's better than the other scrubs the Vikings hoped would benefit from this. I just don't think he'll do as well without the other guys tying up everyone. We'll see...

160
by jmaron :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 11:41pm

"Ray Edwards has never seen a double team"

I don't chart games or anything, but I watch every Viking game and that comment simply isn't true. He definitely gets less attention than Allen, but I've seen many a time where Edwards got extra attention. I've also seen games where Edwards was a dominant player. In particular the playoff game against Dallas in 2009.

177
by Tim Wilson :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 10:58am

Against Marc Colombo, who was returning from 8 weeks off and was basically crippled. For whatever reason, Witten and the other TEs were assigned to help Free with Allen in that game, so Colombo was one-on-one with Edwards and he clearly wasn't up to the task. So that example actually is a case where Edwards benefited from his teammates getting double-teamed.

195
by jmaron :: Tue, 08/02/2011 - 4:26pm

If I recall correctly Allen's only sack in that game came when Witten completely whiffed on a one on one assignment with Allen. The Dallas blocking that game was ridiculously bad.

My comment stirred up a bunch of anger in one fellow who was apparently burned in a Chemical accident, so one can understand his hostility, but also led to some great info from another and a good comment from yourself. Sensible reasoned arguments without insults are really interesting. Personal attacks are annoying.

64
by Harrison Bergeron (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:04pm

Everyone could see Odom's release coming. But I'm a bit surprised they released Morgan Trent. He's still on his rookie contract, and he had played reasonably well as a nickel/dime back. Plus, they just lost Johnathan Joseph - are they planning on having Leon Hall cover all the opposition's WRs?

67
by trill :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:11pm

Folks were debating that on Twitter BEFORE Trent's release.

I'll be surprised if the Bengals win more than two games this year. How are they gonna even get to the salary floor unless Palmer shows up to camp?

73
by Floyd (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:36pm

If I'm Andrew Luck I'm trying to figure out how to get an extra year of eligibility next year in order to avoid this train wreck. But then again, Mike Brown would probably pass on Luck because he's already got his QB of the future in Andy Dalton.

76
by trill :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:39pm

The Bengals are gonna have to suck pretty hard to beat out 3/4 of the NFC West for the rights to the #1 pick #loseforever

102
by Tim R :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 5:37pm

The NFC West has a big advantage (disadvantage if you're going for Luck) because they play each other.

78
by John (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:52pm

Pretty sure Luck was just a redshirt sophomore last year, so he has 2 more years if he wants them.

85
by Jimmy :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:21pm

This is true, Luck is a junior.

72
by Nathan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:36pm

Pats cut Crumpler, Kaczur and Ty Warren

73
by jackgibbs :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 3:36pm

CRIPES. I hope releasing warren is just to restructure or something. I hope it's not because he can't play anymore after his injury

86
by RichC (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:26pm

He failed his physical. They said it wasn't the hip though.

106
by Theo :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 5:58pm

Could be a fit for the Steelers.
Steelers in FA? Who am I kidding...

87
by Mike Elseroad (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:28pm

I saw that the Pats released Ty Warren as well. I thought he was a very solid, if underrated defenseive lineman. I also thought that after the Pats acquired Phat Albert, they would use some 4-3 looks with Warren, Albert, Vince Wilfolk and maybe Gerard Warren. With all of that beef up front, it would allow MLB Jerod Mayo to run free and make plays, very similar to what the Baltimore Ravens' D had from 1999-2001 with Tony Siragusa, Sam Adams and Ray Lewis.

My best guess now is that Belichick is gonna slide Albert into Warren's old spot at weakside DE. That might work too.

Man, that Richard Seymour trade is really biting them in the you-know-where.

89
by Scott P. (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:34pm

Given that Seymour would have needed a big paycheck to stay, I don't know that the trade was a bad idea.

91
by jackgibbs :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:41pm

also that trade netted them a desperately needed offensive lineman

123
by RickD :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 7:12pm

Presumably there were lingering questions about Ty Warren's hip.

The damage from the Seymour trade was done long ago. It's not clear that Seymour would have recovered his form if he hadn't gotten the kick in the butt of being traded.

81
by Dean :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:04pm

Harvey Dahl to the Rams. Not sure of the money. If the money isn't completely unreasonable, this is a home run signing. The Rams line went from possibly starting John Greco or Hank Fraley to suddenly having the potential to be REALLY good, not to mention 8-deep.

84
by Wtf? (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:19pm

Doesn't the salary cap floor start this year? I know the Bengals don't have a very likely chance of winning anyway, but isn't Mike Brown supposed to be spending money they were 50 million under the cap before letting go of chad and Odom. How is it possible they are not adding players? and does Palmer's salary count even though they are not paying it?

90
by Scott P. (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:35pm

I have heard that teams have two years to get their payrolls up to the salary floor.

98
by Southern Philly :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 5:05pm

Teams have a cash commitment of 99% of the cap in 2011 and 2012, so everyone has to spend.

92
by DRohan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:41pm

I thought it was next year.

97
by trill :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 4:57pm

If he retires they don't have to pay him. I'm not 100% sure on when the salary floor kicks in, but with the way CAR has been burning money I assumed it was this year. I know teams can borrow some money against next year's cap to get UNDER, but I think they've gotta hit the minimum payroll this season.

Maybe Brown swoops in and steals Nnamdi and Orton, then gives Ronnie Brown $20m guaranteed.

100
by DisplacedPackerFan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 5:17pm

They do have to hit the floor this year, but they don't have to be at the floor until the END of the season. So if a team extends players in the middle of the year they can play games to put more on this years cap to get up to the floor. They don't have to spend it now is the main point.

108
by Nathan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:27pm

So what's the plan in Philly?

112
by jackgibbs :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:33pm

thank you andy reid for keeping the nightmare that would have been a revis/asomugha defensive backfield from being a reality!

nfl network is saying samuel is all but gone, as nnamdi and DRC both play a press style coverage, and samuel likes to play off.

113
by Theo :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:35pm

Hope they'll pass.

114
by Jimmy :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:39pm

I think it is safe to say that they won't be using a Tampa2 like the smoke screen articles in the media have been reporting.

152
by tuluse :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 10:38pm

Which never made sense anyways as I wrote about in another thread.

109
by Theo :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:29pm

Awesomeness is an Eagle.
Though I've never thought the Steelers could sign him, so I'm glad he's to my favorite NFC team.
Fly Eagles fly.

110
by Aaron Brooks' Good Twin (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:30pm

It's not really fair to have Asomugha *and* Samuel. Eli might break the record for most INTs in a game.

(Poor Zeke Bratkowski -- as bad as his 12-28, 7 INT game was, it wasn't even his worst game that year. His 5-16, 5 INT game was worse.)

That said, they seem to have no remaining LBs, so it might be interesting in run defense. They're sort of the anti-Lions at the moment. (It's usually good to be the anti-Lions)

111
by Jimmy :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:31pm

The Eagles are now going to turn around and trade one of their other corners for a draft pick. And some other team is going to give them one instead of waiting to see how they try to fit all these conrers under the cap.

116
by TBW (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:42pm

It would make sense to turn around and deal Asante for a pick(s). Is the Eagles angle, that draft picks are even more valuable now ? With the new CBA rookie salaries are now controlled, which makes draft picks even more valuable than in the past. Also, since rookie salaries as a percentage of each team's salary cap should decline, then there should be inflation among salaries for free agents, as there will be more money chasing them. Until the league adjusts to this reality, is the smart play to sign big free agents(with no cost to you in terms of talent) that are potentially still underpriced by the market, and then deal away established talent you already have for draft picks, who will ultimately sign cheap contracts. So, sign a free agent as a replacement for an existing starter, then deal the starter being displaced by the free agent for pick(s). Rinse. Repeat. Trade Kolb for DRC and a pick. Sign Young. Sign Asomugha. Trade Samuel for pick(s). Is there a WR they can sign and then deal DJax ?

118
by jackgibbs :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:47pm

malcolm floyd, plaxico buress

or, TO and randy moss could be had for cheap

117
by JSA (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:44pm

Hopefully Asante Samuels returns to the AFC
-Phil Simms

119
by jackgibbs :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:49pm

charles johnson is being paid more than nnamdi...

and for 11 million more than joseph the texans could have had him. the hell?

120
by Nathan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:51pm

He's been stuck in Oakland. He wants to win.

122
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 7:09pm

Yup - I saw an interview with him a year or so ago, and I was just left with the feeling that Nnamdi was going to be willing to pay money out of pocket to get a shot at a ring. An absolutely marvelous man, and I'm glad he's out of Oakland, so that I can start rooting for him 100%.

Boy are the Eagles going to be sick in coverage. I probably wont happen, but imagine DRC in the slot! Would that be the best CB-trio of all time? Some Steelers team perhaps? This years Packers? Think what that would mean for Trent Cole - he could reach 25 sacks.

127
by Nathan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 7:30pm

I bet I saw the same interview as you. Female reporter asks him about it and he just says "it's depressing". I looked for it real quick on YouTube to link in my post but didn't see it in the first few pages. Really interesting interview and seems like an awesome, grounded guy.

134
by Intropy :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:43pm

The Lions of the first half of the 60s had three hall of famers in Dick Lane, Dick LeBeau, and Yale Lary in the same secondary. It's not exactly what you asked since Lary was a safety, but to make up for that Lary was also a punter.

136
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:44pm

What?! Punters don't belong in the Hall of Fame!

137
by Intropy :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:53pm

Well, I think he went in primarily for his play at safety. He just happened to be an excellent punter (and returner) in addition.

139
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:57pm

Just joking, man. I miss the days of non-specialized kickers and punters...

165
by c0rrections (not verified) :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 1:06am

No of course not. This makes the mistake of assuming DRC is actually any good when he is at best pretty average (with one fluke year). He's a gambler and the worst type of guy (as Deangelo Hall proved) to have on the field with Asomugha. Samuel has similar gambling tendencies and is overrated but he's at least a good corner.

121
by LT (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 6:59pm

Why not just play all three corners? Nickel is a base D in the NFL these days. Is it a cap issue cause I thought the Eagles were one of the teams with plenty of cap room.

126
by jackgibbs :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 7:25pm

it's a cap issue, as the eagles will now need to give djax at least nnamdi money, and samuel is just under ten million a year

129
by LT (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 7:54pm

But if Vick is signed long term, doesn't that open up enough space for Desean to sign? Besides, Asante's due a lot of money and won't be easy to fit under many teams' caps right?

135
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:44pm

Eagles are a lot more likely to let Djax sit or trade him than they are to give him a big new contract. I get the sense that the Eagles front office doesn't feel he's as good as his hype - and I'd agree. He's the best deep threat and breakaway runner in the league, but he's not very useful in any other capacity. Maclin is the Eagles' best reciever and they have decent depth with Avant and Riley, both of whom are more legit #2 receivers than folks like Greg Lewis, Freddie Mitchell, Todd Pinkston and Reggie Brown. The fiscal penalties are holding out are so huge this year that I'd be shocked if they don't call Djax's bluff.

As for keeping all 3 CB's, I'd love for that to happen. Teams like GB, Dallas and the NYG Giants having been fielding teams with 3 real WR threats (or TE's that play like WR's) and having 2 big athletic corners and a gambler seems like a really nice recipe for counter-acting the very common 3 WR sets. Plus, depth is important. If one of them goes down, they're not back to the dire situation they were in last year...

147
by Arkaein :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:59pm

One of the first things I thought when I heard about this deal was if the Eagles were thinking specifically about another matchup with GB.

Pittsburgh had the NFL's best D last season, but they didn't have the CBs to stop GB's WRs in the Superbowl. Very few teams really have that kind of depth. 3 good CBs are necessary to stop the best passing offenses or the Nickel back will get picked on all day. The Eagles now have a defense (at least on paper) that can pull that off.

150
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 10:22pm

And finley is going to be back this year. I think most folks agree gb is only going to be better and more explosive on offense in 2011...

192
by AlanSP :: Mon, 08/01/2011 - 10:56am

Disagree about Maclin being a better receiver than Jackson (although I'm a big Maclin fan). More well-rounded does not equal better, and being the NFL's best home run threat goes a long way. Sure, the inconsistency can be frustrating, but Jackson's a huge part of what makes that offense so explosive. It took Reid a decade's worth of Pinkstons, Mitchells, and Browns to finally draft a couple of stud WRs. Why mess that up?

124
by Marko :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 7:19pm

The Bears just signed Vernon Gholston. Insert joke here.

128
by Dennis :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 7:53pm

Best move the Jets have made so far.

130
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:01pm

If Rex Ryan can't get a guy to the quaterback, I'm afraid noone can. Julius Peppers will have to carry him on his shoulders.

131
by Shattenjager :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:09pm

You mean insert joke besides Gholston himself?

132
by Theo :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:15pm

This is downright depressing.

166
by srsbzns (not verified) :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 2:02am

Here's all you need to know about the difference between a mediocre to bad front office, like the Bears, and an elite front office like the Patriots.

While the Pats go out and get a couple guys with huge upside who have proven in the past they can perform, the Bears go out and get a WR who has had one good full season (admittedly that came under the same OC as he will now have in Chicago) and has been ineffective for the last 3, and a guy who has never had a single sack or as far as I know a single productive play in the NFL.

And we ("the royal we... the editorial") still haven't signed Olin Kreutz. He isn't what he used to be, that's for sure.. but there is no one else on the roster that can play center. Garza? Give me a break, he's a bad guard, he would be a debacle at center... so yeah, he actually would fit in with that line really well, nevermind.

180
by Eddo :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 12:32pm

I'm not necessarily defending the Bears' moves (I like the Hurd and Spaeth signings, lukewarm about the Roy Williams signing, and obviously amused and mystified by the Gholston signing), but...

Aren't we only impressed by the Patriots' moves because of their reputation? For example, tuluse says that Williams's "attitude, approach, production, and play style are all the opposite from what [he] want[s] in a football player". Couldn't the same easily be said of Haynesworth? Except, since New England signed him, he's a guy "with huge upside who [has] proven in the past [he] can perform". (I also highly suspect that if the Bears had made the same moves as the Patriots, we'd hear how they brought in a "total headcase" (Haynesworth) and gave up too much for Ochocinco, who's a "prima donna".)

Again, I'm not saying that the Bears' signings are good (though even the Williams contract, from what I've read, seems low-risk), but I'm not sure the Patriots' are that much better. More flashy? Definitely. And have the Patriots' front office earned the benefit of the doubt? More than the Bears, yes. But a history of good moves in itself does not ensure a future of good moves.

185
by tuluse :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 5:29pm

Really my main concern with Williams is that I think Martz is going to play him more than he deserves. I don't have any proof of this, it's just a feeling. If that doesn't happen, then as a moderate upside pickup, it would actually look decent.

Also, I don't think Ochocinco has much upside. Possible less than Roy Williams. He's 3 years older and showing definite signs of declining, while Williams has just sucked the past three years, it's been a consistent sucking. He actually had an uptick in efficiency last year as his roll got reduced.

175
by justanothersteve :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 10:15am

The Bears just signed Vernon Gholston. In other news ... nah, too easy.

138
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 8:55pm

So, in summation, the Eagles free agency period so far:

upside:
They signed the consensus top overall free agent, filling a position of dire need in the process.
One of the top 2 DE free agents and the one bringing in a pass-rushing pedigree (filling a position of need.)
The turned their back-up QB into a 2nd round draft pick and a Pro Bowl CB (further covering the same position of need.)
They brought in a highly touted QB with a history of success at the NFL level and decent upside to be their back-up. (I personally think switching Kolb for Young is trading up.)

downside:
They cut Babin 2 years ago, so the idea of seeing Babin playing opposite Cole doesn't exactly thrill me - I've already seen it and it wasn't impressive. Has bust and mistake written all over it.
They let their only experienced, reliable safety walk. He was also the glue holding together an inexperienced and suspect defense.
The backup QB is a famous headcase.
The Pro Bowl CB from the trade is a famously lazy, difficult player.
Their star WR is holding out.

Not sure how I feel yet. It feels little too much like a Redskins-esque "winning the off-season" haul for me to start celebrating. Normally, I spend my time chuckling at Snyder bringing in over-priced under-performers and me-first headcases. I'm not looking forward to Babin having 4 sacks in week 10 and DRC "falling asleep on the field" while Vince Young disappears from the training facilities just before gameday.

149
by JasonK :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 10:20pm

That's nice and all. But I know that, deep down, you want to talk about the deal today that truly changed the face of the NFC East-- the Giants signed a competent Punter!! (Steve Weatherford, formerly of that other North Jersey team)

151
by chemical burn :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 10:25pm

Hey, I can acknowledge that the giants punting was essentially the difference in the eagles taking the division last year...

176
by justanothersteve :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 10:19am

And the Packers from making the playoffs. If the Giants don't allow DeSean to return that punt, the Giants and Eagles both make the playoffs and the Packers are shut out.

190
by Dean :: Mon, 08/01/2011 - 10:49am

I actually had some very similar comments to some friends of mine:

Get the biggest name available: Scrabble
Get a corner who’s skinnier than Pinkston almost as big a pussy: DRC
Get a one-year wonder: Babin
Get a fragile headcase: Young
Get a guy who will play out of position: Jenkins

Sure, they all have name recognition. And they all could turn out to be good players. But they shouldn’t start sucking each other’s dicks just yet. If the Redskins made these same moves, they’d be crucified for business as usual. We'd call them The Champions of the Offseason (again).

140
by Southern Philly :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:19pm

The Saints re-signed Roman Harper.

Seriously.

145
by Joseph :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:47pm

Haven't seen this report yet, but I'm going to assume it's true.
Having said that, they have no other SS on the roster, and part of Harper's problem is that he is mediocre in coverage. It also doesn't help his reputation
that his worst game of the year was in the playoff loss. However, what most non-Saints fans don't know is that the FS, Jenkins, was OUT for that game. [Remember, Jenkins was a 1st round pick as a CB and was then converted to FS.] So, Harper had a lot more coverage assignments, and Hasselbeck took advantage--multiple times.
Regarding the Saints, ask yourself--who is a better option that is available??

148
by Southern Philly :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 10:09pm

http://www.macsfootballblog.com/2011/07/saints-re-sign-s-roman-harper.ht...

per

http://twitter.com/#!/AdamSchefter/statuses/97109305085542400

"Saints re-signed S Roman Harper to a 4-year deal worth $28.5 million, including $16 million guaranteed."

Oof. That's bad.

I would think just about anyone would be better than Harper was last year.

142
by dada (not verified) :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:27pm

Aaaaaaaaand of course the Patriots play the Eagles this season. Obviously, they have to play them now that they have Awesome-ugha. It's not that we were going to have a schedule break in the next 10 years of so...

Was it all for that super easy 2007 season, Fortune? Or because of SpyGate? It was SpyGate, right?

Goddammit.

143
by jackgibbs :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:41pm

I'll take him once against an interleague team over twice a year, every year, opposite the other top cornerback in the league

144
by jackgibbs :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 9:42pm

I'll take him once against an interleague team over twice a year, every year, opposite the other top cornerback in the league.

gotta cure this OCD. gotta cure this OCD

183
by PirateFreedom (not verified) :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 3:08pm

Maybe the Pats will play them twice :)

153
by Purds :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 10:50pm

We have done nothing! All that excitement, and all we did was let Clint Sessions go. And signed our own safety. And kicker. Wow. Talk about boring. Ever other team in the league is either excited or mad right now, but we feel the same as we did four days ago. Sucks missing out on the excitement, even if it's bad news.

156
by Intropy :: Fri, 07/29/2011 - 11:15pm

You want exciting? Can you handle the Curtis Painter experience?

179
by drobviousso :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 12:17pm

Well, the Steelers resigned a CB and RT, and let an old T and an injured LT walk. That's not super exciting. The big news yesterday was "Draft picks signed to contracts!!!11!"

161
by JPS (not verified) :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 12:34am

This is so awesome! The Welbutrin is going back into the medicine cabinet until February. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU, owners and NFLPA!

171
by Karl Cuba :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 8:00am

I hate the Eagles, I really do. I will point out that the Nnamdi signing does make the Cards look even dumber than they did before. The eagles were only able to pull this off with Kolb off their books and the Cards gave them DRC and a 2nd for helping them out. Stupid, stupid stupid.

181
by Jeebus (not verified) :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 1:06pm

"The eagles were only able to pull this off with Kolb off their books..."
Umm, meaning what? Kolb only cost $1 million this year. They still could have easily signed Assmouthgut.

184
by ChicagoRaider :: Sat, 07/30/2011 - 3:19pm

Philip Rivers has to be the most grateful person about the Asomougha deal. Two games a year paved in gold.

191
by Dean :: Mon, 08/01/2011 - 10:50am

Jacob Bell re-structured his contract and was not released, despite PFT reports to the contrary.

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