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29 May 2012
After being turned down by practically every other NFL team, HBO's Hard Knocks has decided to focus on the Dolphins this season.
Posted by: Rivers McCown on 29 May 2012
77 comments, Last at
05 Jun 2012, 4:22pm by
This is exactly what a dysfunctional team like the Dolphins needs. Bravo.
Isn't the Dolphins a decent team for a thing like this? I mean new coach and subsequent roster overhaul, new shiny QB, GM in PR turmoil. There might not be an overload of quoteable players, but you can't get the Jets every year...
EDIT: To clarify, I mean a decent team from HBO's point of view. I have no oppinion on whether this is a good idea from the Dolphins pov.
I don't think this will cause any problems from the Dolphins' point of view. What could it do, interrupt the front office's careful plan for building their team?
If there's a team that could use the PR infusion of Hard Knocks to help get its fan base on board and start recovering league-wide respect (essential for FA), it's the Dolphins. On the field it can only hurt, but they need it at this point.
We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.
I don't think that it is possible for them to regain my respect.
I see what you did there. Bravo!
Fire Jeff Ireland.
You can see the upside for HBO, but it is hard to see the upside for the team. On the other hand as totally against it as I was, the Dolphins message boards seem to be very excited by this idea. Football is a business and if it get more seats sold and the fans want it, I don't see it has a horrible thing. The series hasn't exactly been a boat anchor to teams in season prospects that I imagine it was based on how team have performed after the show.
Didn't the Jaguars petition to get on the show? Are they that averse to filming Jacksonville?
Who would want to see the Jaguars on TV? They're probably the most boring team in the NFL right now -- not very good at anything, and no players worth watching.
Yes, they only had the #2 RB DYAR achieving excellence with zero support. A shifty, tough, teensy-weensy explosive runner who still managed to produce despite one of the absolutely worst supporting casts on offense in recent memory, possibly in a decade and a half. MJD would be a superstar on not even a half-decent team, but merely a team with a half-decent offense.
Is MJD really not regarded as a superstar?
Well, I think in the sense that if you asked someone who isn't a football fan for what team and at which position he plays, they would have no idea. There's two different kinds of superstars: players my wife knows (i.e. guys known bytotal non-fans) - Brady, Brees, the Mannings, Chad Ochocinco (but that's an artifact of Dancing with the Stars - she also knows Hines Ward & Donald Driver for the same reason) and players that come up as the best at their position in discussions with casual fans. MJD doesn't make the cut in either group - my dad, the consummate casual fan, didn't even realize MJD won the rushing title when I was making the argument with him that LeSean McCoy was the best back in the league last year. (His pick was Ray Rice - who plays for a frequently nationally televised highly regarded team - and who he's seen in playoffs, "the big stage," repeatedly. He also loves Pierre Thomas because he's a Saints fan.)
I think it depends on the casual fan. I feel like your average fantasy football player or Madden player would know MJD.
Ha - you might be right, but since I avoid people who play fantasy football and video games like the plague, I'll never know...
Fair enough. I guess my exposure to casual fans is essentially zero, and while obviously I know a lot of people who don't follow football, I'm betting if you asked them to name every football player they could the vast majority would be able to name either Dan Marino (only) or nobody at all. And the keen but not overwhelmingly knowledgeable fans I encounter online are mostly Texans fans, and as such only too familiar with MJD.
I also just remembered that his Errol Morris-directed commercial for some video game got pulled because not enough people recognized him. So, even if they know his name, he's still one of the "only a stat-line" guys to a lot of fans...
Anyway, is anyone disputing he's a notch of fame below the real superstars like Manning, Brady, Brees and such? Some guys just have more media presence and notoriety, mainly QB's, that a guy like MJD would have to be a legend like Jim Brown or a relentless self-promoter/media circus master like T.O./Ochocinco to be a "superstar" on the order of Peyton Manning...
Probably, but it's not like Indianapolis is a huge media market, and Ladainian Tomlinson was a superstar in San Diego playing for bad teams.
See LDT is funny and a perfect example of what I'm talking about - I'm not sure he really was a superstar in the sense of public awareness. Certainly, he was right on the border, but could you have put him in a national commercial for, say, Isotoner gloves? Or Enterprise Rent-a-Car? Let alone have been famous enough to headline Saturday Night Live or have an actual movie career? He falls short on every account. You'd never see LDT in The Split or Slaughter's Big Rip-off. And MJD still has a way to go to be as well-known as LDT - the fact is also that he's accomplished virtually nothing in comparison to Manning or Tomlinson.
If MJD played in NYC, that's be a different story. Look how much attention a career-long mediocrity like Sanchez gets. If anything, Sanchez is more famous the MJD...
LdT sold TVs nationally, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RSk8TKRVAY
He's about as famous as a football player can hope to be.
QBs are simply their own category.
Look, man, he's no O.J. Simpson (pre-murders) or Jim Brown, therefore there is a significant level of fame above him. I'm not sure selling off-brand Costco garbage t.v.'s is the same as having a film career. He's also no Jerry Rice, who did very few ads and hasn't been a major media presence. You might notice none of them are QB's and Jim Brown is more well known today than just about any QB from his era. In a couple years, he'll on the level with Marshal Faulk or Ernest Dickerson where no one but fans remember him. Even still, he's MJD has a ways to go to even be as famous as LDT. You get that, right? That LDT is a HOF'er and MJD is not (yet certainly)?
The questions we are debating are "is MJD a 'superstar' right now" and "would not playing in Jacksonville put him closing to being so." The answer to both is yes, if the LDT was in a Vizio commercial and he played in SD is the best you've got. LDT's commercials didn't get pulled either because no one knew who he was.
Well I think your definition of super star is higher than most. What's the last NFL player to be in movies as more than a cameo part? Which I'm pretty sure LdT could get if wanted.
Does Chris Bosh's 10 seconds on Entourage really make him more famous than Tomlinson?
Tomlinson is about as famous as one can get for playing football, and you're right MJD is not as famous as him. I also think he's not as good personally, so it makes sense.
Anyways if the standard of super star is Jim Brown, MJD doesn't reach it. If it's Tomlinson, MJD doesn't reach it. If it's Dwight Freeney, Lance Briggs, or as in your example above Ray Rice, I think he reaches it.
So maybe he's just a "star," not a "superstar."
Oh, I'd definitely agree he's a star. I just don't think he's as big a star as he would be playing for, say, NYC or Dallas. I mean, look at how big of a star dez Bryant is and he's accomplished next to nothing. Or Brandon Jacobs, who is a fraction as successful on the field as MJD. His market is holding him back. Stars are bound to their sport in a way that superstars like Gretzky or Montana are not. Even keeping within your admittedly limited range of his appeal, MJD is still not nearly as famous as he should be and it's hard to blame that on playing for Jacksonville on mediocre teams. Even consistently mediocre "important" teams like Dallas teams create bigger stars out of less on-field production. And if we're lowering the bar for "star" to well-regarded low profile players like Lance Briggs, I think we're just confusing "star" and "good player." Give me a clear definition of what you mean by "star" and "superstar" and we can test that. My definition for superstar started out (and continues to be) players known by those outside of their sport's fanbase and really well respected by even casual fans. MJD probably meets the latter (although not by a wide margin) and definitely whiffs on the former.
Getting back off track, a cameo on Entourage isn't what I'm talking about when I mention a film career. Lots of baseball players had cameos on Cheers or whatever (which is much higher rated and important show than cable-bound nothings like Entourage), but that's not a film career like Jim Brown had. Entourage has such a limited audience and market that it's hard to speculate how it affects somebody like Bosh's Q rating. Jim Brown carried movies and co-starred in Oscar nominated consensus classics. That's a superstar. Bosh is a star, although one benefiting heavily by his market and the national visibility of his teammates. If he stays in Toronto, someone who gives not half a shit about basketball like me has no idea who he is.
I think Jim Brown is a bad comparison. This isn't the 60s anymore. When's the last time you've see an NFL player starring in a movie? The last time I can even think of one having a role was Michael Irving's cameo in The Longest Yard remake. The last athlete I can think of who even tried to make an acting career was Shaq.
You define superstar as players who are famous to people who don't know anything about the NFL. That's fine, that means MJD isn't a superstar. It also means that superstars are such for things other than playing football. They're charismatic people who took the effort to get they're name out there and made themselves famous.
That's what I was trying to get at with LdT, he's as famous as one can become solely for one's ability to play football. So to me that's what a superstar is. He became famous by just being a football player. The players more famous that him did so by being full time football players and part time celebrities.
I think MJD would be on the tier below that. Casual fans know who is, Madden or fantasy players should have a gauge of how good he is (not necessarily an accurate one). He's been voted all-pro 3 times. The fact that your dad doesn't know him well isn't really proof of anything.
Finally, I think he's about as famous as he deserves to be. I think he's clearly a level below in-his-prime LdT, and he hasn't shown a personality really worth anyone paying attention to. My only impression of his personality is when he called out Cutler about his injury in the playoffs, lets just say it wasn't a positive impression.
"LdT [is] as famous as one can become solely for one's ability to play football. . . . He became famous by just being a football player."
Not really. He had a lot of extra fame from his looks. My mother and sister know who he is because they asked me who "the hot guy in the Vizio commercials" was. (And this is how unaware of football they are: My sister calls Tom Brady "Gisele's husband.")
Well I think he was already famous before he was in the commercials.
People like my mother and sister did not know who he was and still wouldn't if not for the commercials, or even if he had done the commercials and been less good looking.
I find it difficult to believe, as you seem to be attempting to imply, that they are the only two to discover who he was through the commercials.
Every time Mark Sanchez is on screen, my wife says "who is that!" excitedly. And then I reminder her that the only NFL player she's ever found attractive is Mark Sanchez, so that must be who it is. Also, she thinks Gisele could do a lot better than tom Brady.
My sister almost threw up when I told her that Tom Brady is supposed to be good looking.
My sister almost threw up when she saw him playing versus the Eagles this year. Of course, that's just because she's a huge Eagles' fan and that game made us all want to puke in disgust.
Yeah, well being good looking is another way for people to notice you that isn't football.
I have no idea if MJD is considered good looking or not.
He's about on the level with LdT, who I wouldn't consider any great shakes. Being short is always a big minus with the ladies, though. However, being rich supposedly makes you look 6 inches taller, so I'm sure he's fine on that front.
So... you're agreeing with me on most of my points? MJD isn't as famous as LdT, isn't known outside of the world of football and isn't as famous as one can be for their on-field accomplishments. MJD is known by engaged fans who play Madden and fantasy football. At this point, all we have is a difference of totally subjective opinions. You don't seem to dispute my central concept and really the only thing I care about is that MJD's level of fame is hurt by his market - in NY or Dallas he'd be significantly more of a star than he is and probably would also be the first name off of everyone's lips for the best RB in the NFL.
Also, I'll point out that you're objectively wrong on your point about how people become superstars: Joe Montana has actively eschewed press for years and demands big fees for small appearances. He was to only player skip the televised Superbowl MVP thing a couple years. He definitely never pursued celebrity. The greatest players become superstars with no effort. Average people know who Randy Moss is and it's difficult to imagine a more mercurial, private personality.
I think media market has an effect, but I don't think it's as large an effect as you think it is.
"The greatest players become superstars with no effort."
You're the one who says LdT isn't a superstar.
I'm saying MJD isn't as good at football as LdT is, and that's why he isn't as famous.
look man, I don't even understand what you're arguing with me about anymore. The point of this thread was certainly never supposed to be is "is LdT a superstar or not." Or the non-argument that I was never engaged of "why is LdT more famous than MJD." Uh, yeah, it's because he was a better player. Great detective work once again.
You concede that media market has an effect on fame. Great. So you agree with me about my main (and really only) point. You agreed with me on everything but the subjective definition of a superstar and the unprovable shades of grey in the level of popularity of certain players.
I think we're done, right?
Yeah I think so
"In a couple years, he'll on the level with Marshal Faulk or Ernest Dickerson where no one but fans remember him."
LOL! You've forgotten Dickerson's first name already.
no, I just suddenly switched disciplines: I was speaking about Spike Lee's cult favorite cinematographer Ernest Dickerson. He shot Brother from Another Planet and Do the Right Thing before directing some terrible DMX movies! He was hot shit in the early 90's, now o one remembers him now but real fans.
(Alright, I screwed up. Although, pretty amazing that I screwed up in a way that even mildly fits.)
That's another game.
In the 50s through 80s there were only so many shows and so many ways to see football or see entertainment in general.
Now you're bombarded with ways to get your info.
So going back you have a better memory about players because there was a less blurring effect with other media like blogs, internet forums, youtube, ESPN, ESPN2, NFL shows, NFL channels, etc etc.
True, but I think the information overload has a tendency to make borderline players even more ephemeral in terms of the public consciousness. By knowing too much, it's harder to remember the guys with a profile like Rudy Johnson or Sammy Morris - how good were they in 2004? 2005? You might remember them, but it's more difficult to correctly recall their careers. I think MJD unfortunately gets shoved more down with those kind of players than he does get placed alongside Adrian Peterson, who is much more similar to. You probably saw Derrick Ward play and know his name, but how good was he actually for the Giants?
I think MJD's probably better than Peterson, to be honest. Not as a pure runner, but as a player overall.
Peterson is hard to judge because of his injury history and the variable support he's gotten as a player. I'd probably take 2011 MJD over 2011 Peterson, but Peterson has frequently looked as good as they come at RB. I guess the same thing can be said for MJD, but I think his support has been consistent - consistently subpar, so it's easier to judge him. Anyway, I think they're on the same level but a lot of fans would bristle at the suggestion and many casual fans would probably dismiss that opinion outright...
It's hard to say. Yeah, AP is nearly useless in the passing game. On the other hand he's probably the only back in the NFL who can nearly carry an offense with his rushing abilities.
So if you switched their places last year, the Jags are probably better, but if you could give the Patriots their pick of who they wanted they probably take MJD.
Building a team in football is like trying to solve a puzzle where the pieces are constantly changing size, and the picture is moving.
Also, where someone is actively trying to smash the puzzle as you're putting it together.
They* did Jacksonville in 2004. It's not a complete non-starter to do a repeat, but I doubt it helps.
*okay HBO wasn't involved and it wasn't actually called Hard Knocks at the time. But it seems to be called Hard Knocks now, and it was pretty much the same exact show.
Only a handful of teams have been approached and the Dolphins have been on the list for months. At least that's the way it's been reported in the press; if FO has any inside information on the process, it would be nice to see it.
In any event, the Dolphins consistently denied any interest, claiming it wasn't in the best interest of the organization and its goals at this time.
Can't help but wonder what changed.
I read somewhere Stephen Ross likes to use the team to impress his friends in New York. I wonder how that's going.
Are they selling out easily?
Apparently Steven Ross was against it because he thought it was a bad idea and HC Joe Philbin convinced him otherwise
Well if you're Joe Philbin working for Steven Ross and Jeff Ireland wouldn't you want documented proof of competence somewhere?
Given that they approached the Seahawks, I'm guessing handfuls of NFL teams are measured in the low 30s at least.
I don't pay any attention to this. How often has a team featured on this show won 10 or more games?
Surprisingly often, I think. I think the Jets made the playoffs both years they were on, and I think the Bengals were a surprise playoff team in their year. I can't remember who else was on - Baltimore, and I think Dallas twice, and I think all were .500 or better.
The Jets were only on once, but they did win 11 games and made the playoffs that year.
2001 BAL: Defending SB Champs, 10-6, Wild Card, 1-1 in playoffs losing in divisionals
2002 DAL: 5-11
2007 KC: 4-12
2008 DAL: 9-7
2009 CIN: 10-6, AFCN Champs, Lost in Wild Card Round
2010 NYJ: 11-5, Wild Card, 2-1 in playoffs losing in conference championship
I'll bet Ryan Tannehill's wife is excited about the opportunity to be seen on Hard Knocks.
if shes on it theyll have to change the name of the show. specifically the second word.
The real question is whether she beats out Brodie Croyle's wife for Hottest Hard Knocks WAG.
Her teeth are way too big.
Yes, of course..."Her teeth are too big." 3/10 would not bang.
David Carr has lousy pocket presence.
I'd still want him on my team for a pick-up game in the park.
I'm not sure I would - when I was 10, I got to play a backyard game with Mike Tomczak and he threw the ball so hard it was virtually impossible not to get injured by his passes, let alone catch one. And he was trying to take the sauce off of it because he was playing all-time QB with a bunch of kids.
Similarly, I'm not sure anyone on this board disparaging the young lady could even handle the kind of woman who's landing star QB prospects. They'd probably just hurt themselves.
All I meant was that I don't think it's necessarily illegitimate to rate someone on a separate scale from the rest of humanity in terms of a high profile job. She's ugly in the same way that David Carr is a bad quarterback - which is to say that by any normal human standards she's hot and he's extremely good, but she's not very attractive for a model, and he's not very good for an NFL QB.
Ah, I'm just joking. I just get tired of every woman's appearance getting constantly judged by anonymous nobodies on the internet - triply so for perfectly attractive women getting criticized for shit like "big teeth" by fellows it's easy to imagine aren't much in the looks department.
As a side-note, I should point out that many of my close friends work in fashion and that most models are fucking hideous - painfully skinny, way too lanky and almost all of them have bad teeth and bland faces. Sure, the Maxim cheesecake models are dynamite looking, but there are far fewer of them who make a living at it and are genuine professionals. Doing boat-shows on the weekends and bar-tending at clubs don't mean a modelling career. And then there's a whole host of catalog models who are selected for being not too good-looking and non-threatening to the middle-aged clientele these companies are trying to woo. By design, Macy's models are fit and pleasant, but not hot or sexy. Anyway, I guess just that's my way of saying that this QB's girlfriend is actually much better looking than the vast majority of models.
I can't connect this back to David Carr without forcing it. I apologize.
I have no idea what it means (and I don't care, either), but I love the phrase "Maxim cheesecake models."
It just means models for non-pornographic but primarily sexual photo-shoots. Big boobs, full derriere, great teeth, uncontroversial hairstyles, slim/fit with feminine body type (not bone skinny, small waist, derriere-less high fashion models types.) There you go, even though you don't care. Unfortunately for those woman there are too few jobs and too many of them pursuing those jobs for it to be a real career for them. Beer companies only make one calendar a year... It's a tough, tough racket.
Well, I have to admit it sounded more interesting when I didn't know what it meant, but I guess I learned something.
So I guess that means I'm going to get to look forward to a year of Joe Philbin jokes that I don't understand and that aren't funny even when explained.
I was really hoping this show would be a permanent victim of the lockout.
Barnwell must be ecstatic about this...
Sports talk radio and sports message boards are the killing fields of intellectual discourse.
Philbin said it was a "football decision" which is of course the type of thing you say when it's not a football decision.
Wow, the Dolphins. A team of exciting, dynamic personalities, that everybody wants to see. At least the Jaguars have Justin Blackmon and MJD, who at least have some name recognition. So, now, Reggie Bush and a rookie QB's hot wife, and . . . anyone? Bueller?
I've never heard Jeff Ireland speak, so I just assume he's like the SNL version of Sean Connery from Celebrity Jeopardy.
What's the difference between you and a mallard with a cold? One's a sick duck and I can't remember how it ends, but your mother's a whore.
Jake Long. Cameron Wake. Karlos Dansby. Snarlin' Richie Incognito.
This show would have been 1000% better with Channing Crowder. sigh.
Cian Fahey shows how Mike Zimmer has led his team through a month of upheaval to become one of the NFL's best teams.
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