Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

18 Sep 2006

2006 Quick Reads: Week 2

Here's the latest Quick Reads at FOXSports.com with PAR for all quarterbacks in Week 2 plus the top running backs and receivers. Peyton Manning has one of the best quarterback performances in FO history, but did anyone notice? Michael Vick has one of the best quarterback rushing performances in FO history, and everyone noticed. Plus, one of our favorite whipping boys pulls the big donut against the Chargers.

Posted by: Aaron Schatz on 18 Sep 2006

68 comments, Last at 25 Sep 2006, 3:47pm by Wanker79

Comments

1
by Pat (not verified) :: Mon, 09/18/2006 - 8:17pm

-4.0 PAR through the first three quarters. 9.8 PAR in the forth quarter (11-of-12 for 146 yards and three touchdowns)

I don't think the NFL has an Obscure Programming Language quarter. You might mean the fourth quarter, though. :)

2
by Vince (not verified) :: Mon, 09/18/2006 - 8:22pm

Given Atlanta's frequent use of the Texas shotgun option, a lot of Michael Vick "sacks" are actually going to be designed runs. Will that effect his total DPAR? Are all "loss of four yards" created equal?

3
by Slippery Pete (not verified) :: Mon, 09/18/2006 - 8:27pm

Can't get over the fact that Alex Smith played better than Marc Bulger.

The Rams suck. The Denver win was a fluke.

4
by Malene, cph (not verified) :: Mon, 09/18/2006 - 8:36pm

"Peyton Manning has one of the best quarterback performances in FO history, but did anyone notice?"

Um. Speaking for all the people in the 2 PAR fantasy leagues that DID NOT get to draft Peyton, I'd go ahead and say yes, I think we noticed. Dayum.

5
by Travis (not verified) :: Mon, 09/18/2006 - 9:00pm

Aaron, if you're reading this, a couple of PAR questions for Week 2:

1. Did Edgerrin James put up a second consecutive negative week? His raw stats (3.6 ypc, and 7 catches for 33 yards) are none-too-impressive.

2. Did you count Chad Pennington's intecepted pass at the end of the NE-NYJ game as a Hail Mary?

6
by tunesmith (not verified) :: Mon, 09/18/2006 - 9:07pm

Alex Smith had one of the prettiest passes I've seen in a while. That touchdown pass was a laser beam.

7
by Felden (not verified) :: Mon, 09/18/2006 - 9:19pm

Re 6:

I'll take "Things I never thought I'd hear after last season for two thousand, Alex."

Seriously, as a 49ers fan, I'm trying to figure out where we hid last years team, becuase these guys can play a bit.

8
by MJK (not verified) :: Mon, 09/18/2006 - 9:19pm

Any way of finding out how good Pennington's PAR would have been if Crotchery's elbow had touched and Wilson had tackled Coles a yard short of the 1st down marker instead of letting him run for the touchdown? Or does PAR already separate out YAC from a QB's rating?

9
by MJK (not verified) :: Mon, 09/18/2006 - 9:22pm

Question to maybe answer the one I just asked:

Since the Jets scored 14 points off those two events, would Pennington's PAR be 14 points lower? Or, not quite 14, because Billy Joe QB might have been able to still get some yards, and also since one of the throws would have been for a 1st down even if Crotchery's elbow had touched? Or am I misunderstanding PAR?

10
by Molloy (not verified) :: Mon, 09/18/2006 - 10:32pm

Considering that Kerry Collins finished 11th in overall QB DPAR last year, with the Raiders, no less, I'm shocked that he's having such a craptangular start to the season.

I wonder if it's just because his addition to the Titans was so last-minute, if Tennessee is that bad, or if he regressed somehow over the offseason.

11
by Led (not verified) :: Mon, 09/18/2006 - 11:21pm

"also since one of the throws would have been for a 1st down even if Crotchery’s elbow had touched? Or am I misunderstanding PAR"

Actually, both of the passes would have been first downs. A replacement level WR would gotten the first down on the Coles catch. What happened afer that was amazing. But granting that Cothery and Coles made incredible individual efforts that inured to Pennington's statistical benefit, it seems a little arbitrary to start deducting PAR points from Pennington's total when every quarterback benefits from YAC to one degeree or another. Not to mention the difference in talent of the receivers and offensive line. Unless you're going to adjust everybody's stats, you just have to live with outliers. I mean, do you deduct points from Eli Manning because Burress is so damn tall? Do you add points to Andrew Walter's total because, well, because he plays for the Raiders? One of the points that Aaron stresses that DVOA and PAR do not perfectly measure the individual performance. But they're a step in the right direction in terms of individual evaluation.

12
by Kuato (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:31am

I think PAR is evened out (more or less/here and there) over the course of the season. Yes, Pennington got a big boost from those catches, but he will get a few negative though the year that are not his fault (i.e. a receiver dropping an easy TD catch or getting sacked in the red zone because his Left Tackle forgot to block Freeney).

13
by Basilicus (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:34am

"Seriously, as a 49ers fan, I’m trying to figure out where we hid last years team, becuase these guys can play a bit."

The current theory is behind Mike McCarthy's game plans.

14
by MarkV (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 2:18am

RE 13:

I bet the 49ers are better for two reasons: The cardinals and the rams are bad, plus as they like to say around here about returning to average... its not like SF was likely to be the worst team since DVOA two years in a row. Plus quarterbacks get better with time, and last year the 49ers had pretty rough injuries. Plus switching defences isn't exactly a recipe for immediate success, you gotta get personal in that fit the system or convert your current personel both of which scenerios will improve with time.

Also I suspect that once PAR and VOA become more DVOA and DPAR they will get lowered, not quite like what SD has coming but still very real.

That said, I am betting my money on a solid season. They COULD easily go 2-2 in their next 4 and hit the bye at .500 (green and brooks hurt helps some). That start makes it possible to make for an interesting season especially if they avoid the injury bug.

15
by Jeff F (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 2:29am

Kuato - I had been thinking about dropped passes and PAR tonight. I have a little idea - include dropped passes in PAR as a positive play, as a percentage of the full value of the play. It would at least partially seperate the responsibility of QB and receiver.

16
by Chris M (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 2:41am

Curious after noting that Favre is 6th this week - how is the Saints defense looking? Is this just a PAR-DPAR problem?

17
by kibbles (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 4:02am

Re #16: Favre is ranked so high because, unlike DVOA, PAR rewards players with tons of attempts.

If every pass you throw is worth .2 points above replacement, and you throw 50 passes, that gives you as good of a PAR as someone who averaged 1 point above replacement per pass and only threw 10 passes.

What this means is that Rex Grossman's week was even better than Manning's, on a per-play basis. Sexy Rexy averaged .626 points above replacement per attempt compared to Manning's .586.

Favre may have finished 6th in PAR, but he was only worth .164 points above replacement per attempt, which would have ranked just ahead of Tom Brady and just behind Vince Young for the week.

18
by mawbrew (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 8:58am

I think Charlie Frye is playing better than the metrics would suggest. In both games, he's had passes hit receives in stride, bounce off their hands and get picked. I was trying to figure out how his run numbers were so low in this game (he had a rushing touchdown and a nice scramble for a 14 yard first down run) and noticed in the play-by-play that he got pinned with a -7 yard run and fumble on a play where he was hit by an unblocked defender while attempting to hand off. Remarkably, I think that happened in the first game as well.

The Browns lack of a running game is killing them.

19
by Independent George (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 10:07am

Wait a minute... has anybody else noticed that David Carr is currently 2nd in QB rating at 123.7? I know most of it came in garbage time against the Colts, but still...

20
by B (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 10:27am

Re 8 & 9: From the DVOA explanation: "...three points for 10 yards, four points for 20 yards, and five points for 40 yards or more." Had the receivers been tackled at the point of the catch, Pennington's PAR would have been 4 points lower. So he did get some benefit from those two plays, but since there's a cap for long plays, it's not that dramatic a difference.

21
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 10:35am

A special assist goes to Jim Johnson for suddenly switching to a weak zone coverage in the fourth quarter and overtime

Johnson "suddenly" switch to a weak zone coverage when their nickle CB, who was forced to start due to Sheppard's injury, "suddenly" injured his foot and Johnson had to try to cover 6'5" 230lb Plaxico Burress and 6'3" 200lb Amani Toomer with Sheldon Brown and two members of the Lollipop Guild.

22
by Pat (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 10:42am

Psst... it's spelled "nickel."

23
by Moses (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 11:02am

After you guys spent much of last year, and the subsequent off-season mocking Favre & Smith, you make no mention of them when they come in 6th & 10th respectively.

Well, at least you acknowledge Eli Manning's improvment. NOt that I like him. But if you're going to keep trying to sell this "objectivity" thing you guys try to sell, you need acknowledge the good, too.

24
by admin :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 11:35am

Re: Roderick Hood, that's what I get for trying to watch two games at once. He was injured while I was watching Miami-Buffalo.

Re: Drops, I've said this in a few different mailbags and articles, but let me just say it again: You cannot account for dropped passes in DVOA or DPAR because dropped passes are not listed in the play-by-play, and turnaround for data from the game charting project is far too slow to use the data during the season. I agree with all the readers who feel that accounting for such passes would improve our ratings, but we just can't do it.

Moses, my lack of comment on Favre and Smith had nothing whatsoever to do with the limited amount of time that I have to write comments prior to deadline, or my numerous other obligations as the editor of this website, and everything to do with my personal, non-objective dislike for players that you want me to write about.

25
by Manteo (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 11:40am

"What happened to the idea that Nate Burleson would be a major weapon for this team?"

Well, the gameplan was willing but the hands were weak.

26
by BadgerT1000 (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 11:53am

The Saints run defense had less to do with their d-linemen playing well then the Packers interior line continuing to stagger around like a wounded water buffalo.

Word out of GB is that Moll will almost certainly be replaced before the Lions game. He was expected to struggle with pass blocking but be able to get a push on runs. Hasn't happened. Ahman Green looks bad because when he gets to the line of scrimmage there are NO holes whatsoever. It isn't ALL Moll as Bubba Franks embarrassed himself on Sunday. Two observers declared Franks performance the worst of his career. And with Bubba having to block to be worth anything that means bad blocking means Bubba is legitimately worthless.

McCarthy is forced to roll Favre out which does two things: Cuts the available field in half if Favre protects the ball. But Favre not having all the patience in the world this clearly tempts him to throw back across the field which reeks of potential disaster.

When Green fumbled it was because Franks completely whiffed on his block allowing a Saints lineman to crash into Green behind the line of scrimmage just as he was accelerating.

Yes, Green should hold onto the ball. But the offensive line issue CONTINUES to be a drain on the offense.

It is now officially ALARMING that Ted Thompson has had 15 months plus to find a solution and still the Packers are putting what Ron Wolf called "stumblebums" in front of Favre.

That the coaching staff couldn't recognize the problems BEFORE the season doesn't say much for them other.

I would be very surprised if an angry Lions defense doesn't completely destroy the Pack on Sunday. Favre always struggles in domes, the d-line of Detroit has a decided advantage, and teams have had 2 games to understand that if you take away Driver Favre is somewhat lost. Packer receivers had SIX drops on Sunday.

Going to be a LOOOONNNGGGG season.......

27
by Nate (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 11:53am

19 - There are too many shocking things about the QB rating rankings right now to notice the presence of Carr. We have two broken QB and another who has never played meaningful minutes. They are, in order
1. Rex Grossman
2. David Carr
3. Philip Rivers
4. Chad Pennington
I'd buy that for a dollar.

28
by Fnor (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 11:55am

Aaron: If you REALLY wanted quick drop information from us, we could possibly just keep a tally with timestamps and then review our tapes afterwards to confirm. Might be a bit much to ask, I don't know.

29
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 12:03pm

It's only been a day and a half and I'm already ready to vomit whenever anyone mentions how much Eli Manning looks like he's improved. Him and every single one of his teammates looked like garbage for the first 3 quarters. Between the tremendous fumble recovery luck, the injuries to Sheppard and Hood that forced Verne Troyer and his shorter brother onto the field, and Philadelphia just flat out giving them that game, there's no way Eli should be getting this kind of respect. You want to say that it showed some resolve to stick around and take advantage of everything I just said, fine. I'll be the first to give them credit for that.

But it's repugnant the here anyone wax poetically (this is directed more towards the media than you, Moses) about how much Eli has improved after a game where he was sacked 8 times, two of which caused fumbles, avoided a 9th sack with an intentional grounding penalty, threw a pick, had more than a few of his patented "Plaxico has a 72 inch vertical jump, right?" throws, and (up until the drive that went stretched between the 3rd and 4th quarters) completed less than 43% of his passes (9 of 21) for 68 yards. And if you just look at the stretch of 6 series between the first two TDs (7 minutes left in the 1st until just under 8 minutes left in the 3rd) he completed just over 35% of his passes at an astounding average of 7.7 yrds/pass (6 of 17) for a grand total of 6 net yards including 5 of the sacks, the intentional grounding, and one of the fumbles.

Like I said, I'll give NY credit for not completely mailing it in when they had every reason to do so. And I'll give them credit for taking advantage of everything they possibly could have. And I'll give them credit for recognizing that the Rod Hood injury created disgusting mismatches for their big WRs. But anyone that talks about this game as Eli's "breakout" game needs a punch in the face.

30
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 12:06pm

* I can't believe I just used 'here' instead of 'hear'. *

31
by Independent George (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 12:09pm

#29 - Wanker, I think you're overreacting to the overreaction.

32
by Pat (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 12:23pm

avoided a 9th sack with an intentional grounding penalty

Can someone explain why an intentional grounding penalty is not counted as a sack? It results in exactly the same thing. He didn't avoid anything.

I don't get why players don't get a sack credited to them on an intentional grounding penalty that they force.

33
by PhillyCWC (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 12:29pm

Re: 29

Here, here! j/k

Thank you for that...I have disliked Eli Manning ever since draft day and the petulance he projected upon being drafted by the Chargers. I do not think he is more than an average QB at best. During Sunday's game he looked dazed and confused 90% of the time. I agree that anyone who counts this as a "breakout" game for Eli should have some kind of bodily harm (non-lethal, of course) inflicted upon them.

34
by MJK (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 12:31pm

Note: I wasn't suggesting that Pennington's, or any QB's, PAR SHOULD be reduced because of YAC--I was just curious what his PAR would have been if those plays had ended along more expected lines. I have a good working understanding of VOA but a less good understanding of PAR, and just wanted to clarify how two outlier playes affected it. For the record, I have always respected Pennington (I think of him as a weaker-armed but more mobile version of Tom Brady) and the Jets recievers. As a Pats fan, it would actually be putting my team down to put them down!

I second Wanker's reaction to Eli Manning. In general, I'm sick of hearing about any Mannings, and think a lot of Eli's hype is because of his last name. I thought both Losman and Rivers had better games than Eli this past week, but you don't hear about them having their "big break out" game (disclaimer, I didn't see the Chargers play, so I'm just going on what I heard).

35
by Scott C. (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 12:33pm

Since these quick reads come before the Monday night games, I thought they were supposed to include the previous week's Monday night performers in addition to the most recent Sunday. Where is the PAR for last week's monday night QB/RB/WR/TE's?

36
by Tracy (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 12:42pm

Regarding Jake Plummer sailing passes all day:

He did wear a glove on his throwing hand for part of the day, so you may be right.

It was also uncharacteristically windy in Denver on Sunday afternoon, and it's not like Plummer has a rocket arm. So I wonder how much of the over/under thrown passes had to do with the wind, and how much had to do with some unknown injury.

37
by Pat (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 12:44pm

I have a good working understanding of VOA but a less good understanding of PAR

VOA is the average of all plays. PAR is just the sum of all plays, plus replacement level (something like -13.3%) renormalized to points rather than a percentage.

While if you took those two plays away, the Jets would have 14 less points, Pennington's PAR wouldn't drop 14 points. There were places in the game where Pennington's play was good, but other factors came in that prevented them from scoring points. Can't blame Pennington for the holding pass in the 3rd drive, for instance.

38
by ToxikFetus (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:11pm

Like the rest of the team, [Donovan McNabb] played much worse at the end of the game, only converting one third down in the fourth quarter or overtime.
I know you can't chart dropped passes, but damn did that bite Philly in the ass. McNabb's late game rating would have been much higher if his receivers hadn't turned into Dropsy McBrickhands. Watching Stallworth and LJ Smith drop two perfectly thrown passes on a 3 and out series was just brutal.

39
by Led (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:13pm

"Can someone explain why an intentional grounding penalty is not counted as a sack?"

Because the defender did not actually sack the QB. Similarly, we don't count pass interference as a completed pass even though the result is the same. Neither the sack nor the completion in those respective situations was inevitable. The penalty treats them as inevitable as a means to deter conduct that we don't want to happen.

40
by ChrisFromNJ (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:24pm

#34:

Sure, I'll grant you Rivers had a better game, though it was against a *far* worse defense (even after the CB injuries, IMO). But you can't seriously tell me that JP Losman's 83 Ortontastic yards gave him a better day than Eli.

I don't blame you folks for hating all the media hype around the younger Manning- hell, I'm a Giants fan and I've been sick to death of it since 2004. Right now, he's an average QB- no better, no worse. And I don't think he's bound to get much better than average. But you can't dispute that, for this week at least, he did pretty damn well. Especially given Philly's utterly dominating line performance.

41
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:24pm

That sack was absolutely inevitable. I'd understand if Eli was scrambling and accidentally drew an intentional grounding penalty instead of throwing the ball away, or something along those line. But if I remember that play correctly, Eli had a guy all over him and just threw that out of desparation hoping that there was a reciever in the area.

42
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:26pm

Re: 40 But you can’t dispute that, for this week at least, he did pretty damn well.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I did in post #29.

43
by Travis (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:36pm

(up until the drive that went stretched between the 3rd and 4th quarters) completed less than 43% of his passes (9 of 21) for 68 yards.

Where do these numbers come from? Manning went 7 for 11 for 94 yards in the first half, and completed 2 of 4 passes for 14 yards in his first drive of the 3rd quarter.

Similarly, by looking at just the (real) numbers for one stretch, we could say that Donovan McNabb choked at the end, completing 5 of his last 10 passes for 30 yards, taking one sack, and committing an incredibly dumb false start penalty.

I thought both Losman and Rivers had better games than Eli this past week, but you don’t hear about them having their “big break out� game (disclaimer, I didn’t see the Chargers play, so I’m just going on what I heard).

J.P. Losman, who completed 1 pass in the first half?

Seriously, I know it's fun to hate on Eli, and I've done my share of it myself, but there's no reason to ignore his 4th quarter and overtime performance in a close game on the road against a good opponent (albeit with backup cornerbacks).

44
by Led (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:36pm

"That sack was absolutely inevitable."

Perhaps it was in that play (I did not see it), but whether intentional grounding is treated as a sack or not should not be decided on an ad hoc basis. Either intentional grounding results in a sack or it doesn't. Generally speaking, it is not impossible for a QB to evade an apparently imminent sack or complete a pass while being tackled by a defender. I can't think of an example in football where a player gets statistical credit for something that did not actually happen, but is presumed to have happened under the rules. Can anyone else? I'm curious.

45
by Travis (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:40pm

(up until the drive that went stretched between the 3rd and 4th quarters) completed less than 43% of his passes (9 of 21) for 68 yards.

I guess you might have been including sacks as incomplete passes for negative yards, which is misleading ("pass plays" would have worked better). FWIW, the sacks were not of the Rob Johnson variety; he had absolutely no time to throw in the first half.

46
by Travis (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:42pm

I can’t think of an example in football where a player gets statistical credit for something that did not actually happen, but is presumed to have happened under the rules. Can anyone else? I’m curious.

In college, intentional grounding counts as a sack.

On a palpably unfair play (e.g., a player comes off the bench to make a tackle on a breakaway runner), the runner is given credit for a TD and the full yardage.

47
by KnickerBlogger (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:43pm

I can’t think of an example in football where a player gets statistical credit for something that did not actually happen, but is presumed to have happened under the rules.

There is the case when a reciever doesn't get the second foot in bounds because they are pushed out of bounds by a defender and the referees rule it a catch. The refs are determining that the player would have landed in bounds when they actually didn't.

48
by Led (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 1:58pm

46 & 47: Thanks, those are interesting examples. I should have thought of the forceout situation myself.

49
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 2:26pm

Re: 43

Yeah, I was counting the sacks and the intentional grounding penalty as incomplete pass plays resulting in negative yardage. It just made logical sense to me to do it that way.

The McNabb false start was stupefying. But witnessing Trent Cole draw possibly the dumbest penalty (situationally) I've ever seen kinda obscured McNabb's idiocy.

And if you don't think Rod Hood's injury really meant all that much, here are Manning's stat lines before Hood's injury (1st half) and after (2nd half and OT)

1st Half
7 of 17 (41.2%) for 94 yards (54 net yards), 5 sacks, 1 fumble, 1 Int. Grounding Penalty, 1 TD drive, 0 (zero) FG drives.

2nd Half & OT
24 of 34 (70.6%) for 277 yards (252 net yards), 3 sacks, 1 fumble, 1 INT, 3 TD drives, 1 FG drive

50
by Travis (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 2:36pm

But witnessing Trent Cole draw possibly the dumbest penalty (situationally) I’ve ever seen kinda obscured McNabb’s idiocy.

Hard to beat Dwayne Rudd against the Chiefs in 2002, or Eric Barton against the Chargers in the 2004 playoffs, both of which continued a game that would have been over.

And if you don’t think Rod Hood’s injury really meant all that much, here are Manning’s stat lines before Hood’s injury (1st half) and after (2nd half and OT)....

I did add the caveat that it was against backup cornerbacks. It also certainly helped that he had more than a couple seconds to throw in the 2nd half, unlike in the 1st half.

51
by Greenwell (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 2:54pm

Rudi was NOT a top 5 RB in 04 or 05, falling just outside of the top 5 both years.

52
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 3:21pm

Re: 50

For all intents and purposes, if Trent Cole doesn't inexplicably decide Kareem McKenzie's ability to reproduce is a threat to the human race, the game would have been over. There's no way in hell Jay Feely makes a 50 yarder to send that game into OT.

And the reason Philly's pass rush suddenly became non-existant was also because of Hood's injury. That's what happens when you've got guy who was cut by the 49ers before the start of last season then spent a year in NFL Europe (Joselio Hanson) and a guy who couldn't even beat a guy who wasn't good enough to make the San Fran roster.

53
by Travis (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 3:30pm

For all intents and purposes, if Trent Cole doesn’t inexplicably decide Kareem McKenzie’s ability to reproduce is a threat to the human race, the game would have been over. There’s no way in hell Jay Feely makes a 50 yarder to send that game into OT.

The Giants still had 11 seconds left, more than enough time to run another 8-yard out. Would a 42-yarder have been makeable?

54
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 3:51pm

The Giants still had 11 seconds left, more than enough time to run another 8-yard out. Would a 42-yarder have been makeable?

Without any remaining timeouts, I'm not sure if they would have risked another play. But you're point is well taken. So it's not the dumbest penalty I've ever seen, it's only one of the dumbest penalties I've ever seen.

55
by Travis (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 3:56pm

So it’s not the dumbest penalty I’ve ever seen, it’s only one of the dumbest penalties I’ve ever seen.

Yup, that's all I was saying.

56
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 4:31pm

But I think I could still make the case that Cole kicking a guy in the nuts in the final seconds of a game is still dumber than either of those you cited. A "too many men on the field" penalty is dumb, but I wouldn't call it unforgivable dumb. And Rudd taking off his helmet after he believed he had just won the game is dumb, but he thought the game was over. Cole absolutely knew the the game was still on-the-line, and he absolutely knew that kicking a guy in the beanbag was going to give NY a chipshot FG. And to make matters worse, if that game doesn't go into OT, Javon Kearse is still healthy. So not only did Trent Coles' stupidity cost us a home divisional game, it also cost us our best DE for the season.

57
by Chris M (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 4:36pm

I just can't see how this was the breakout game for Eli. What about all those other comebacks from last year? I've seen almost every Giants game Eli has started, and this one looked like most of the others - great first drive, mediocre rest of the first half, getting hot at the end of the game and showing good poise under pressure. Same script, slightly bigger comeback.

There's things to like about Eli and things not to like, but I just don't think anything got added to either list on Sunday.

58
by Pat (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 4:37pm

Perhaps it was in that play (I did not see it), but whether intentional grounding is treated as a sack or not should not be decided on an ad hoc basis.

It often is anyway. If a QB just falls down and is touched down, sometimes it's a sack, and sometimes it's just a rush for negative yardage.

It's not really ad hoc. If there's someone pressuring the quarterback, and the QB commits an intentional grounding penalty, it should be a sack. The penalty occurs because a QB is not allowed to throw the ball away to avoid being sacked. The results of the penalty are designed to have the exact results of a sack. It should count as one.

59
by Travis (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 4:48pm

Re: 56

Barton's penalty wasn't for too many men on the field. It was a cheap shot blow to Drew Brees's head with the referee a few steps away on a fourth down heave into the end zone.

60
by Justus (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 5:16pm

"Speaking for all the people in the 2 PAR fantasy leagues that DID NOT get to draft Peyton, I’d go ahead and say yes, I think we noticed."

Those of us in PAR leagues who drafted at #4 and were dumbfounded to watch S. Alexander, L. Johnson, and L. Tomlinson go before me also noticed. I can only assume they just didn't change the default draft order at all....

I shouldn't complain about getting Manning in the #4 spot, I guess.

61
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 5:46pm

Re: 59

Oh, that's right. I remember that play now. I just didn't read far enough through that link you put up. I'd call both Barton's and Cole's penalties equally stupid, but Barton "wins" the tiebreaker because his penalty cost his team their season and Cole's only cost them a game in Week 2.

62
by Malene, cph (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 5:53pm

re: 60

ok I'm in the other one... where Peyton went #1... as he bloody well should.

I was 6th and got Hasselbeck. Ouch.

63
by Led (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 6:32pm

Actually, Barton's penalty ALMOST cost the team the season. Schottenheimer's cautious playcalling and Kaeding's missed FG let Barton off the hook. Doesn't make the play any less stupid.

Re: 58, do you believe a pass interference penalty should count as a completion for the QB and a reception for the receiver because the results of the penalty are designed to have the same results as a completion?

64
by Matthew Furtek (not verified) :: Tue, 09/19/2006 - 10:16pm

By any chance can we get DPAR for players from the Monday games last week?

I'm looking for Brunell's vs. Minnesota.

65
by Pat (not verified) :: Thu, 09/21/2006 - 12:37am

I’m looking for Brunell’s vs. Minnesota.

PAR of 3.4.

How can I tell? Total's listed on the QB page (1.7). PAR's an integral stat, so it must've been 3.4 before this week to get to 1.7 with a -1.7 this week.

66
by Joe (not verified) :: Thu, 09/21/2006 - 1:20pm

To be really nit-picky, I just want to point out in the comment about Pennington that Giants Stadium has artificial turf, not grass.

67
by morganja (not verified) :: Fri, 09/22/2006 - 3:13pm

Re: 58

Peppers was robbed of a sack by the call against Minnesota last week. Peppers had Johnson entirely wrapped up and was taking him down when Johnson kind of limpwristed the ball a yard in front of him. Peppers did not get credit for the sack, yet the penalty was the exact same effect as the sack. Since the intent is to fool the ref into thinking it is an incomplete forward pass, there needs to be some downside to the QB for throwing the ball into the dirt since sometimes he will get away with it as an incomplete pass and the defense will never get credit for a sack. Even a five yard additional penalty would make sense in that situation, spot of the foul + 5 yards + loss of down.

68
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Mon, 09/25/2006 - 3:47pm

Re: 67

I kinda like that idea. It's like a stupidity penalty. You lose the yardage and down as if the sack had actually occured, and then you lose another 5 yards for being an idiot.