It appears one has to be outside of Philadelphia to appreciate the Eagles' draft. For all the sturm und drang around here about trading out of the first round instead of reaching on a receiver, one would think all they'd gotten in return was a sack of beans. I think they had a terrific draft and Laws, Jackson and Booker have a chance to contribute right away.

One quibble, Demps is more of a ballhawk and coverage guy than a hitter or solid tackler, so I believe he was drafted to study FS at Dawkins' feet and not to compete at SS with Mikell (the starter), Reed (the thumper) or Considine (the bust).

Terrell Thomas is from USC not Florida St.

[comment deleted - no advertising, kids]

I never understood the 'trade Sheppard' rumors; Philly has the cap room to extend him, and I can't see the problem with having two star corners to fill two starting spots (heck, one could plausibly argue the nickelback is now effectively a starting role). Where outside of talk radio would such a deal make any sense?

I personally loved Philly's draft. A lot of people are going to be upset about it because they didn't get a first rounder, but where they were at, they really didn't have a lot of solid picks that filled needs that wouldn't be reaches. They traded down, got a first rounder next year, and still managed to get a WR that a lot of mocks had them taking in the first.

They still have some holes, but I think criticism of Philly right now is short-sighted because it's not including that they picked up an extra first rounder. They'll be able to address those holes even better next year.
3

Are you on goalline blitz's payroll or something? I dont' think I've seen a single post you've made that hasn't tried to push that game on someone.

As a Spartan fan, I'll offer this in defense of Devin Thomas' 2006 campaign: the man deciding which wideouts played that year was named John L. Smith. Thomas' highlight that year was blocking a punt against Northwestern during the greatest comeback ever.

Did you just call your boss an "incredulous pundit"? Who edited this piece?!

The Giants also signed 2 guys who I hope make it: D.J. Hall and Wallace Gilberry from Alabama. Odds are against them, but who knows...

Personally, I did not hate the Cowboy draft, although I think they could have gotten more from Miami. Perhaps a conditional 5th-7th round pick (at least one of them plays 75%, 60% or 50% of snaps next year). I think the second round would have been OK for a WR and they might have traded back a little (maybe for a 7th round pick or something) and still gotten a solid RB (Jones, Mendenhall, Chris Johnson). Mendenhall would make a great replacement for Barber as RB in their second contract demand big $. How tall is Daniel Polk? 4.5 is not a terrible speed for a sizable WR.

Mario seems like a big risk, big reward guy for New York. If any of the big ego receivers (including TE) consistently show up during the offseason to practice with Eli and Carr then they could have a good receiving corps. Playing basketball in Miami does not benefit the QB-WR-TE relationship, IMO.

I like the trade the Eagles made in the first round. However, I did not love their 2nd round picks. Maybe they could have traded back a few spots?

I was surprised Washington could draft. I thought they got good value from many of their picks, although there are issues with all of those picked in the second round. At least less money will be invested if they run into problems. I think they might have been better picking up at least one lineman of their choice in the last two rounds.

You forgot the t in Giants and Terence Newman only has one r in his name.

I didn't see a draft in this division that I didn't like, which, as an Eagles fan, disappoints me. This is a rough division, which all arguably all four teams currently on the upswing.

Crushinator/5:

The game is one of many that encourage players to spam links to it by providing a bonus to players for each sign-up using their link (note the "ref=" on the end of the link to identify JoRo). Most bulletin boards specifically ban this sort of thing, but FO apparently allows it.

I wouldn't call the "Gians" OL depth a weakness. Grey Reugamer is a respectable veteran backup at C/G (and he's useful to have around in case you need some livestock neutered). They also have Kevin Boothe at G (who was the best starter on the worst line in football in Oakland in '06). On the outside, Guy Whimper has performed adequately as the #3 tackle, while Adam Koets and NaShan Goddard are developmental projects. It'll be a tough haul for any UDFAs to make the team at an OL position. I wouldn't have minded grabbing a young C to develop (the only starter over 30 is Shaun O'Hara), but OL wasn't really a need in this draft.

The biggest remaining need on the Giants is another NFL-caliber DT. They have 3 right now (Robbins, Cofield, Alford), which is the number they usually activate on gameday. (This is fewer than most 4-3 teams because Tuck & Kiwanuka spell these guys on passing downs.) But 1 camp injury could leave them perilously thin at the position, unless an unheralded player emerges.

And I got a good laugh out of the "Blue Bossa" reference. Jamey Aebersold vol. 54 FTW!

The reason we Eagles fans didn't like the draft is that by the time they eventually picked, we were already passed out at the draft party. Seriously though, as dissapointed as I was not to see them pick up a tall WR, I can't complain about what they got. I mean, they didn't get the best guys on the draft guides' lists, but how often are they right? And since I was moaning all last year about how Jerry Jones stole a top ten pick from the Browns (thank God they didn't stink!), I'll accept the delayed gratification until next April - when they trade both of those picks.

This is still a very, very strong division, and I'm glad my team doesn't have to face it this year. Which AFC team gets the NFCE this year?

And Vince, I thought the correct spelling was "Jaintz"...

16

The AFCN gets the NFCE this year, which is part of why they have such an insane SoS this year.

That's not good news for Wild Card chances in the AFCN.

Accusing Jack Ikegwuonu of lacking speed would seem a little inaccurate. Especially after his performance in the 2006 Capital One Bowl where he chased down Darren McFadden from behind. Although I suppose it remains to be seen if it survives the injury.

...His [Felix Jones] undeveloped receiving skills make this pick less than ideal. The Cowboys need a running back who can catch the ball out of the backfield; Marion Barber ranked merely 51st in receiving DPAR among running backs last year. Yet in his three years at Arkansas, Felix Jones caught only 39 passes.

I'm not sure that is the case.

I understand that Jones did not catch many passes in Fayetteville, but no one caught many passes in Fayetteville either. You have to keep in mind that the vaunted "Wild Hog" formation was really nothing more than a variant of the old Single Wing, so there was just no passing. And, even when they tried to throw the football out of more conventional formations, they did so with probably the worst quarterback in the conference (Casey Dick). In all honesty, Jones' receiving numbers are very comparable with what McFadden posted.

I understand that it all means he doesn't have much experience as a receiver, but I don't necessarily see where that will be a liability in the NFL. From all that I could tell of watching him several times the past couple of years, he had very soft hands and almost always did very well once he had the ball in his hands. The problem wasn't that he could not be an effective receiver, the problem was that he was playing in a heavy run-based offense, and he had the worst quarterback in the conference throwing it to him. I actually expect that he will do pretty well coming out of the backfield for Dallas.

I actually thought that Eagles had a pretty good draft. I know fans were clamoring for a big wide receiver in round one, but the name of the game is to get good football players, not please fans. The truth of the matter was that none of the top receivers should have legitimately gone when the Eagles went off the board, and when they went on the clock, Reid and company intelligently realized that basic fact.

Again, it's about getting good players, not making fans happy. It doesn't do a damn bit of good to have all of your fans and these so-called "experts" fired up over you drafting a big wide receiver when, effectively, you just took the next Troy Williamson or Matt Jones.

Like I said earlier, I think it's a pretty good draft. Very typical for the Eagles, IMO. It looks to be a solid, deep draft that will turn out several quality players in the coming years -- even if no true superstars -- and that is really the name of the game come draft day.

I didn’t see a draft in this division that I didn’t like, which, as an Eagles fan, disappoints me. This is a rough division, which all arguably all four teams currently on the upswing.

I still say the main problem with the NFC East is that all the teams are rich. The owners never really need to worry about public opinion of the team, so they don't have to knee-jerk fix things. They've always got the cash to handle signing free agents, so there's no issue there. The facilities are all top-notch, the executives are all paid well, and they can afford to spend large amounts of money on scouting, etc.

Sure, the salary cap means that the teams can't dominate, but just the sheer amount of money in those four teams means that none of them are going to suffer a serious downturn.

The NFC East teams rank 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 8th on Forbes's list. The only other division to have more than 1 in the top 10 only has two (the Patriots and Jets).

Eagles fans got way, way too used to the bizarre period in the early 2000s. I don't think that'll happen for a while.

Can someone explain to me the massive desire for a big WR in philly?
McNabb has never been one to toss up jumpballs, and he doesn't have the touch necessary to throw the flag pattern in the endzone. Anyone who has watched Eagles games knows that McNabb has trouble even completing screen passes where he has to loft it. At the same time, he can hit open guys in the 15-30yd range with a gun that is matched by few(none?) in the league and he can often hit guys with a long-ball over their shoulder perfectly in stride. These are his strengths, and a big guy doesn't really offer much of an advantage on throws like this. His low INT totals are a result of his risk-averse mentality where he won't throw to a guy unless he's open. His high sack total demonstrates this as well.
DeSean Jackson is the PERFECT fit and I can't wait to watch them tear it up.

10, 14 and 16

Its spelled Gi-Aunts.

In 1925 a group of bridge players were unhappy doting on their nieces and nephews. These women promptly escaped their maximum security suburbs and escaped to the New York Polo Grounds. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as professional football players. If you have a stadium, if no one else can play, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire, the Gi-Aunts.

I certainly hope that Felix Jones is set to become the next LenDale White.

When I was watching the draft and the Redskins came on the clock at #21, the teevee cameras went to a shot of Devin Thomas at his house, all pimped out in a pimpin' suit and tons of bling. I said to my roommate, "goddamnit, just what the Redskins need, another blingin' wide reciever flash-in-the-pan. You know they're going to pick him." I was right, but at least we got Malcolm Kelly also so when Thomas busts, we still have our quality WR.

Can someone explain to me the massive desire for a big WR in philly?

Well, Terrell Owens played extremely well in Philly, until he got kicked out, so maybe that's part of it. And really, when all of your WRs are small, speedy guys (like DeSean Jackson), it can make your offense a little less consistent. Like, for instance, when they scored 56 points against the Lions (zone coverage) one week, and then only 3 points against the Giants (press coverage) the next. If their whole season had followed that pattern, they would have averaged 29.5 points, which is great, but they still wouldn't have had a good W-L record.

Obviously, it's not that simple, and having a healthy, productive TE should help a lot, but a big, talented WR would be a great complement to that offense.

Shannon Boatman failed his physical and did not make it even to the first mini camp. Meanwhile it looks like one of the other UDFA lineman we picked up Kerry Brown a guard from Appalachian State might just be a steal.

If he is and Reinbach our 3rd round pick works out we suddenly have some pretty good young depth on our O'line in Heyer, Brown and Reinbach.

Of the receivers I have my fingers crossed Devin Thomas is for real and at worst Kelly should be an excellent red zone threat. Davis should give us some really good match ups when we go with 2 TE's.

All in all interesting times

I thought the Eagles had a great draft. Interior run-defense was as necessary as a WR or KR. And we got all the in the first 2 rounds without reaching, plus a first next year.

As for the big receiver, the Eagles will sign Matt Jones when the Jags cut him.

"Can someone explain to me the massive desire for a big WR in philly?"

West Coast offense needs a larger receiver because they are not always able to get separation. Its not for the jump ball necessarily but for the short passing game. McNabb takes a three step drop and fires. Same reason Washington picked up some taller receivers in the draft.

#21:

It's money and it's Quarterbacks. The worst starting QB in this division is either Jason Campbell or Eli Manning. That's not too shabby. During the period of the Eagles' dominance in the early 2000s you mentioned, the teams were all similarly rich, but the second-best QB in the division (Kerry Collins?) was probably worse than either of those guys. And Romo, Manning, and Campbell are all quite young and should be just getting into their prime years.

Nearly every other division in football has at least one team that is still searching for the answer to their question at QB. The only other division I can think of with four proven, competent starting QBs is the AFCS (better quality at the top with Peyton and Garrard, for sure, but I'd take Campbell and Eli ahead of Schaub and Young).

"The Chargers and Texans were ahead of the Cowboys; one of them would have almost certainly drafted Jenkins."

I'm not totally sure about this. The Texans were wild about this left tackle class, believing it included five players who had the potential to be franchise LTs in the Shanahan-Kubiak-Gibbs system. When the four who were in some way NFL ready (Long, Clady, Williams and Albert) were gone by #18, they traded down specifically targeting Brown. I suspect they could probably have moved down further and got him later, and I have no reason beyond general faith in the current Texans front office's ability to evaluate players to think he'll be any good, but I do believe that was always their plan.

AJ Smith, meanwhile, has a clear history of rating players very differently to the pundits and to other teams (just look at Weddle and Davis). He may well have had Cason rated ahead of Jenkins.

Of course, Jerry Jones had no way of knowing any of this. Jenkins was an excellent value at #25, and it was a prudent trade to make.

"The only other division I can think of with four proven, competent starting QBs is the AFCS (better quality at the top with Peyton and Garrard, for sure, but I’d take Campbell and Eli ahead of Schaub and Young)"

According to DVOA, Schaub was the best player of that second four last year, closely followed by Campbell. Young was slightly ahead of Eli, but both were well behind the first two. Given concerns about Schaub's possible fragility, I would rather have Campbell, but I think the evidence is that Schaub is clearly better than Eli. Rosenfels, of course, put up far better DVOA than any of them, but having watched most of the Texans' games last year, I'm inclined to think that's a bit of sample size theatre. I'd also take Romo and probably McNabb over Garrard. And Kerry Collins was a whole lot better than Eli Manning has been to date. Regardless, it's clear that these are the two best divisions in football at quarterback as well as overall.

#31:

Yeah, I figured I'd get called on that. It's off-topic, but here goes: I'm not entirely sold on DVOA as the end-all individual evaluation stat for QBs until there's some kind of a weather variable in there. While I'm far from an Eli apologist, his lousy regular season stats are at least partially due to the fact that about 17% of his passes were thrown in truly terrible weather conditions (v. MIA in London, WAS at home, and @BUF). I don't have a solid basis to know how unusual this is, but 3 horrendous weather games in a season seems significantly higher than what the average QB faces to me. It doesn't account for all of his stinkers (hello, Minnesota!), but he's not as bad as the numbers make him look.

Also, if Rosenfels is a small sample size issue at 240 attempts, is Schaub's 289 attempts that much more reliable? (This isn't intended to denigrate his play-- honestly, I haven't watched enough Houston games to have a legitimate subjective impression of either Schaub or Rosenfels.)

Yeah, I figured I’d get called on that. It’s off-topic, but here goes: I’m not entirely sold on DVOA as the end-all individual evaluation stat for QBs until there’s some kind of a weather variable in there. While I’m far from an Eli apologist, his lousy regular season stats are at least partially due to the fact that about 17% of his passes were thrown in truly terrible weather conditions (v. MIA in London, WAS at home, and @BUF). I don’t have a solid basis to know how unusual this is, but 3 horrendous weather games in a season seems significantly higher than what the average QB faces to me.

I don't necessarily disagree with your underlying premise, but I just don't think it would make that big of a difference regarding Eli. I figure, on average, the non-dome NFL quarterback has to go through a couple of games a year in bad weather conditions -- rain, snow, extreme wind, destroyed field, etc. -- so I don't think three games is enough to make that big of a difference in his DVOA. That's probably only slightly above what the "average" quarterback would have experienced.

Moreover, you should realize that in those three bad weather games that you mentioned, the opposing quarterbacks all posted a higher QB rating in those games than did Eli. In the UK, Eli posted a 44.9 passer rating, while Cleo Lemon posted an 81.1. Against Washington, Eli posted a 51.1, while Todd Collins posted a 56.4. Finally, against the Bills, Eli posted a 32.2 while rookie Trent Edwards posted a 42.8. It's not just that Eli had bad stats in the bad weather games, his stats in each game were worse than what his opposing quarterback put up, and it's not like those guys -- Cleo Lemon, Trent Edwards, and Todd Collins -- were anything particularly special.

I think a weather adjustment to DVOA may improve Eli's ranking slightly, but it's not going to make that big of a difference, and I don't think it would do enough to rationally change anyone's opinion on Eli.

#33:

Yeah, you may be right about that. In any case, I really don't want this to take over the discussion of this fine article. We've had enough haranguing over Manning the Younger around here lately to last us well into next season.

So, in that vein, how 'bout that Colt Brennan?

Shush,

Garrard had a far better year than McNabb and is on the rise. He also bested Romo in DPAR and DVOA and playoff letdowns. He has also done more with less in terms of receiving threats. Romo may be the better QB, but it's far from a clearcut answer.

One more ingredient to add to the AFCS/NFCE mix. Every team has above average (at least) coaching, with the possible exception of Washington. Combine that with wealth and good QB play, and you have two seriously tough divisions.

Also, if Rosenfels is a small sample size issue at 240 attempts, is Schaub’s 289 attempts that much more reliable? (This isn’t intended to denigrate his play– honestly, I haven’t watched enough Houston games to have a legitimate subjective impression of either Schaub or Rosenfels.)

Yeah, I'll agree with you on that one.

I'm not trying to poo 49 extra passing attempts, mind you, but in this sense I really do not see where it means anything. In both cases, we are talking about small sample sizes, and it's really hard to read anything definitive into an outcome that is based on a small sample size.

Now, this would make sense to me if Schaub were a proven starter who had a few years under his belt as a starter. However, that's far from the case. He was essentially a career back-up -- starring a couple of times in Sample Size Theater -- and in his only year as a full-time starter he could not stay healthy and it has led to this.

I'd argue that, given the small sample sizes of both players, you really cannot determine very much about either player. I live in NOLA, and thus see a fair amount of Texan games, but it's still hard to tell. Any time you are legitimately trying to figure out a player's quality by only looking at him in seven or eight games, it's really just a shot in the dark.

As I was mentioning earlier, the point of the draft is to get good players, not to please the talking head "experts." When I was reading PFT yesterday, I happened to notice that they had a post up regarding these "experts," and in particular Todd McShay. The following is a quote given to PFT from an unnamed scout...

“The problem with people like McShay is that they have no accountability. They can say what they want and when they are wrong no one cares, [except] the kid’s family. McShay could not get a job with any NFL team, even as an intern. He is a very poor evaluator. He proved it with his evaluation of Woodson.

Woodson’s problem, and most everyone in the league saw it, was he has a very slow release and he stares down his receivers. In our league, he would get a very high percentage of interceptions because of his flaws. His accuracy is very average at best, so you put a slow release, not good accuracy, and stares down receivers and you get a guy who can’t play quarterback in the NFL.

“The networks should hire real scouts not wannabes like McShay. The other kid at ESPN, Jeremy Green, was fired after a couple of years with a club because he couldn’t evaluate, yet he is an “expert” with ESPN. These guys make more than twice as much money as real scouts and they don’t have a clue. ESPN should grade what these guys say and fire them when they are wrong a lot more often than when they are right.”

I found that to be quite interesting insight from Florio. I know it sounds elementary, and it is, but sometimes I think it is so easy to get caught up in what talking heads and random fans say about a draft in its immediate aftermath. In both cases, even not considering the speculative nature that is inherent with the draft, neither of the two are honestly qualified to give a fair assessment one way or the other. Hence why many highly-touted drafts look terrible three years later, and while many drafts that are booed and derided turn out to be very good.

#27 Matt Jones. That's funny.

or

You shut your filthy, lying mouth.

Perhaps, in my earlier post, I should have specified: tall WR, with talent. Matt Jones? Yikes!

I do not understand why Philly didn't trade a couple of late picks for Chad Johnson. With a real #1 split end like Johnson, and a real #3 slot receiver like Curtis, Reggie Brown would be a perfectly competent flanker, because he'd be covered by, at best, the #2 corner. There's nothing wrong with Brown. He's just an NFL average receiver.

They could have shopped for Anquan Boldin, too.

Re 41:

"I do not understand why Philly didn’t trade a couple of late picks for Chad Johnson."

Maybe because it takes two teams to make a trade, and Cinci wasn't even taking 2 #1s for him?

The Eagles I think have had the best off-season of any team in the NFL. THey addressed all of their glaring weaknesses, and also some secondary ones.

The Eagles had the hardest schedule in the league last year and still won half their games. Had the Eagles not made any improvements this off-season, they would have been a ten win team next year. As it is, the Eagles are the favorites to win the NFC East. They have the best QB when McNabb is healthy, the best RB, the best O line. The Eagles Defense might also be the best in the division with the new additions.

#8-- by all accounts I read, DJ Hall was the most impressive player, not just receiver, in rookie camp (or whatever it is actually called). Manningham apparently acquitted himself well, but Hall supposedly did better.

FWIW

18-

"I understand that Jones did not catch many passes in Fayetteville, but no one caught many passes in Fayetteville either. You have to keep in mind that the vaunted “Wild Hog” formation was really nothing more than a variant of the old Single Wing, so there was just no passing. And, even when they tried to throw the football out of more conventional formations, they did so with probably the worst quarterback in the conference (Casey Dick). In all honesty, Jones’ receiving numbers are very comparable with what McFadden posted. "

This.

This. This. This. This. This.

All three of the Arkansas running backs (including Hillis) have really good hands. Really really good (and Hillis is a great sleeper fantasy pick for TD leagues). It is hard to overstate how bad the quarterback play on the Razorbacks was. The best quarterback on the field for them last year was McFadden, and he's only good in a LdT sort of way as far as throwing the ball.

I think Jones is going to be a super player in the NFL. And while I have become a Hogs fan since coming here, I don't think I have rose colored glasses here. I look at their current crop of players and I don't see the same caliber of running backs, at all. Smith is good, but there is nothing big after him, and his hands are not great.

You usually don't get to be on the return teams with bad hands (at least, I don't think). I don't recall Jones dropping many passes, in games or in the few practices I saw. I would rate his hands as quite good.

21-

"I still say the main problem with the NFC East is that all the teams are rich. The owners never really need to worry about public opinion of the team, so they don’t have to knee-jerk fix things. They’ve always got the cash to handle signing free agents, so there’s no issue there. The facilities are all top-notch, the executives are all paid well, and they can afford to spend large amounts of money on scouting, etc."

With the salary cap and with the amount of money the NFL makes, even the poorest of teams can invest in good facilities, good scouts, and in good executives while still making a comfy profit.

Some choose not to (hello, Bengals). But it is a choice, not a function of not being rich. Although, perhaps, when a team is so unbelievably rich they never avoid making those investments.

And there are rich teams that don't consistently do as well as the NFC East. And then there is the whole chicken and egg thing-- is one of the contributors to them being rich that they remain competitive often, or do they remain competitive often because they are rich?

#32-- "I don’t have a solid basis to know how unusual this is, but 3 horrendous weather games in a season seems significantly higher than what the average QB faces to me. It doesn’t account for all of his stinkers (hello, Minnesota!), but he’s not as bad as the numbers make him look."

I think a lot of this also has to do with Giants Stadium being tough regardless of if the weather is nice or not. Just looking at Eli's home/road splits last year, his QB rating (yeah, I know) was 68.7 in Giants stadium, 44.9 in Wembley, and 32.2 in Buffalo.

He had a 63.7 in FedEx and a 63 in Soldier field. And the rest of his games were above 80.

Very possible that it is that the games above 70 were the flukes. But it is also possible that his stats are held down by the fact his home stadium is a wind tunnel and he's played in some unusually bad weather.

I tried finding a good summary of his home/road splits for his career, but didn't have much luck. But looking at some of the NFL.com data by year of his splits at various stadiums, it looks to me like he consistently has better numbers (not by a ton, but noticeable) on the road.

I don't think it is a coinkydink that the best Giants QB in God only knows is Simms, who won't make the hall of fame. The Meadowlands is a tough place to throw the football. I think Pennington's high QB years (DVOA and QB rating) are extremely impressive.

Disclaimer-- I am not saying Eli is great. But to be an apostate and a homer, I would take him right now over Jason Campbell every day of the week and twice on Sundays (convenient, as most games are then). Campbell may be talented, but right now he's the clear weak link in NFC East QBs.

#44

Thanks for the info/update. Hall has always been talented, his work ethic, attitude, and off-the-field issues were always the problem. I was surprised he was not drafted.

48--

Here are some examples of what folks at camp were saying:

One

Two

Thomas stop posting on FO when youre supposed to be working. You need to make money so you can buy me drinks. Yeah and your points about Eli (Mr Shush is to whom im refering to) whilst true my point is that while on a consistent basis Schaub may be better having watched a lot of Eli over the last years and Schaub last year and my genuine opinion is that, Schaub is a good starting QB but injury prone where as, Eli is extremely inconsistnet but has the abilty to win games (also to lose games) but in the long run is in my view a QB with the abilty to win superbowls even if the rest of his team is vaguely incompetent. Matt Schaub however I see as someone who can be a good QB a la Bulger/Hasselbach in a system suitable to his abilty but not good enough to single handily win his team games like Peytone can. Eli clearly can't do this on a consistant basis but shows the potential to do this regularly at some point in the future. (buy me booze its sunny so come to the parks and get drunk with us, and pay your phone bill you ass clown)

Personally, I don't see Eli ever putting it together on a consistent basis. I doubt he'll have as good a career overall as Kerry Collins.

I should clarify my Schaub-Rosenfels comments.

I didn't mean to imply that the 49 extra pass attempts for Schaub made a huge difference in terms of the reliability of the sample, though I can see how it would give that impression.

What I meant was that having watched a lot of both guys play last season, it is my subjective belief that Schaub's DVOA reflects fairly well his performance, and that Rosenfels' does not. In particular, Rosenfels' advanced stats are considerably inflated by one statistically spectacular half against the #1 ranked Titans pass defense when it was in prevent mode and many starters were not on the field. Rosenfels also got to spend more time throwing to Andre Johnson than Schaub did. I hope PFP includes a breakdown of the Texans offensive DVOA with and without Johnson, because I'm betting that's a colossal swing. Rosenfels is a competent NFL starter, with excellent pocket presence, but he lacks first class accuracy, which Schaub has.

As for Garrard vs. Romo and McNabb, I am inclined to think Garrard's 2007 performance was something of a fluke. What would his DVOA be if he'd thrown, say, 8 more interceptions? (And yes, I know it depends when and against whom he threw them.) I'm still giving McNabb the benefit of the doubt in assuming that he is capable of a return to his previous level of performance. If 2007 is part of a decline process rather than a blip, then he is clearly worse than Garrard and I'd plausibly also rather have Campbell or Schaub.

And Tim, I'll buy you a pint around the end of the month when I have some money, you drunken bum.

Forget the whether excuses. Everyone piling up on Eli Manning is ignoring the more important context: terrible playcalling. The offense was the most complicated and QB-unfriendly for most of the year, after rapidly increasing the complexity during the past two years.

Toss out the ridiculous option routes, and voila! Eli performs like the QB we always expected him to be. He's been asked to do far more than all of the other young QBs in the league during the past few years. His playoff performance was absolutely for real, and he's going to prove it this year.

29. No no no, It is not that the worst Qb in the east is Eli or Jason Campbell, the worst quarterback in the east IS Jason Campbell. Not the super bowl champion and MVP, but the guy that was wasn't allowed to come back from injury because his backup was playing better than he was and got into a rythem he never got into. Eli never had that problem with Jared Lorenzen.

The commenter who said Eli's DVOA isn't truly reflective of his ability was right. Not to mention the 3 horrible weather games, the " training wheels off", and the huge personalities of his WR corps, the most dropped balls...

I think the article was overall pretty good besides saying T.Thomas went to Florida state.

The author correctly points out that the Giants O-Line was better than most pundits thought ( with a guard playing tackle, and a backup guard next to him), but he failed to make the connectiont that a large part of that was not the lineman themselves, or the RB's but ELI.

WHEN WILL PEOPLE REALIZE THAT THE QB HAS AN EFFECT ON HIS LINE ( and obviously Vice Versa)? It is easy to see how a poor line effects a QB, but most people are ignorant of the effects that Tom Brady, Peyton Manning ( or even Eli) have on their line.

I was one of the main people defending Eli for years, not so much on what he has done, but what he CAN do. With Eli, you have to look past his conventional passing stats and realize that he has an effect on the run game ( much the same arguments that went for Mike Vick).

52- You are correct on the complexity of the Giants offense and especially with all of the option routes.

Eli is dropping back and reading coverages. Jason Campbell either throw a WR screem, a RB screen, or the 5 yard crossing route to Chris Cooley. That is a lot different than dropping back, setting up your pass protection, reading the corners, Safeties, and OLB's.

QB A completes 67% of his passes for 7.3 YPA with 2 TDs and 6 INTs in 165 throws. QB B has a 66% completion rate for 8.4 YPA, 7 TDs, and 3 INTs on 124 attempts. QB A is not bad, especially for a young guy, but made too many mistakes and didn’t throw for enough TDs to really stand out. QB B is a potential star in the making although he has to prove it over a whole season. Not enough throws to be significant, but tantalizing nonetheless. Of course, they’re actually the same player. It’s just that Schaub Part B got to throw to Andre Johnson and Part A did not.

So there's the conventional stats, but I too would like to see the defense-adjusted breakdown of Schaub's numbers with and w/o AJ.

51- "I don’t see Eli ever putting it together on a consistent basis. I doubt he’ll have as good a career overall as Kerry Collins."

Age 23 seasons: Manning QB rating 55.4, 13 sacks, 6 TD, 9 INT over 9 games. Collins 61.9 rating, 24 sacks, 14 TD, 19 INT over 15 games.

Age 24 seasons: Manning 75.9 rating, 24 TD, 17 Int, 28 sacks over 16 games. Collins 79.4 rating, 14 TD, 9 Int, 18 sacks over 13 games.

Through two seasons: Manning 70.5, 30 TD, 26 Int, 41 sacks over 25 games (4805 yards). Collins 69.9, 28 td, 28 int, 42 sacks, 5171 yards, 28 games. Very comparable.

Then the next two years happened.

Age 25 seasons: Manning 77.0, 24 TD, 18 int, 25 sacks over 16 games. Collins 55.7, 11 td, 21 int, 27 sacks over 13 games. Pretty substantial advantage for Manning.

Age 26 seasons: Manning 73.9, 23, 20, 27 in 16 games. Collins 62.0, 12, 15, 31 over 11 games. Pretty substantial advantage for Manning again.

Composite of 3rd/4th seasons: Manning 75.4, 47 TD, 38 Int, 52 sacks over 32 games (6580 yards). Collins 58.7, 23 td, 36 int, 58 sacks over 24 games (4337 yards).

First four years totals: Manning 73.4, 77 TD, 64 int, 93 sacks in 57 games (11385 yards). Collins 64.5, 51 TD, 64 int, 100 sacks in 52 games (9508 yards).

We know what happened next with Collins. He rebounded a bit, and performed a bit better for the next 7 years (more in line with his 2nd season than seasons 1,3 or 4). But through similar stages of their careers, the following was true-- they started out similarly, then Collins regressed while Manning was very stable. And Manning has been more durable, which is a valuable trait.

At this point, it looks likely to me that Manning will end up with a better career than Collins.

#44, 48, 49:

So whom do the Giants keep at WR? I assume they'll keep 6, and those 6 will almost certainly include Burress, Manningham, and Smith. That leaves Hall, Hixon, Jennings, Moss, Toomer, and Tyree fighting for 3 spots, and I have no idea how that would come out.

As a Cowboys fan I didn't have a problem with them taking Felix Jones over Mendenhall, but had more of a problem with them taking Felix over Jenkins with the first pick. They should have taken Jenkins at #22 and then they could've waited for Felix to fall to them at #28. Instead, they took Felix at #22 and had to trade up to get Jenkins. 2nd round pick Martellus Bennett should probably get a mention when it comes to their WR situation. They pretty much drafted him when they didn't see a WR they wanted in the second round (they only wanted Hardy who had already went to Buffalo). The plan is to use him in a lot of 2 TE sets. That being said, I have yet to see a team really use the 2 TE set as effectively as they envision using it.

57-- No clue, although I find it very odd to consider WR a position with significant depth for a Giants team. That never happens!

56 - I think it more likely that Toomer and Tyree claim a spot than Manningham. I can really see Manningham flunking out of preseason.

They can't cut Tyree! "Hey, Dave, thanks for winning us the Super Bowl with one of the most heroic plays ever made in NFL history. Now Moe from Security will wait right here while you clean out your locker."

That would be almost as bad as winning the Super Bowl and then cutting your quarterback, like Trent Dilfer or something. Oh, wait ...

re: 53 WHEN WILL PEOPLE REALIZE THAT THE QB HAS AN EFFECT ON HIS LINE

Personally, I think it'll be when EVERYONE learns how to type in all caps.

62. For a site that is prided on unconventional stats, examining overlooked " facts", and digging deeper for knowledge, I am shocked with how everyone glosses over a QB's impact on his line/run game. It is really obvious with Peyton Manning, and more subtle but still there with Eli Manning.

I'd say Ammani Toomer and his higher salary, injury risk, and fall off in play last year make him a risk of being a vet cap casualty in camp this year.

Burress is a lock to stay. Smith is a lock to stay. I'd say Tyrees pro bowl caliber ST and SB catch keep him safe. Manningam and Moss are young high round picks with promise... If you keep Toomer then you are set.

However, if Smith, Moss, and or Manningham look good in camp then Toomer is expendable and could be a camp cut. Otherwise you might see Hall,Hixon, or Michael Jennings on the Giants practice squad. The Giants crowded WR corps. last year had to end up cutting a very good WR ( who I like), who ended up in Washington.

#57- I think Toomer is the most likely cut. He's served us well, but he's old, injury-prone, and 5M against the cap.

Tyree stays because he's cheap, famous, and excellent in punt coverage.

Moss has been a disappointment, but he's also a high-round pick that management is probably loathe to cut ties to.

I don't know about the rest. Who besides Hixon has experience on kick/punt returns?

57: Moss, Tyree, Hixon. They wouldn't have the heart to cut Tyree. Moss gets one last chance - but if he ever runs backwards 2 yard after catching an 11 yard pass on 3rd and 10 again he'll be cut on the spot. And I mean cut. By Coughlin. On the field. With a machete.

I suppose if Toomer plays well enough in training camp, they would have a hard time cutting him though, who else is gonna make those sideline catches dragging the little toes on both feet?

58 - After the Cowboys selected at #22, the Steelers and Titans selected at #23 and #24 respectively, and both drafted running backs. It seems possible that Dallas anticipated this, and was afraid that Felix Jones would go to Tennessee at #24, whereas they thought the only team that would draft a corner would be San Diego at #27. Perhaps they concluded that neither Jones nor Jenkins would be available at #28, but Jones was more likely to be drafted before they could trade down.

Shush,

Garrard's 2006 campaign is remembered for his horrendous performances to end the season against Tennessee (a nightmarish game where the defense only really gave up 3 points... and those 3 points off of a turnover... and the Jags lost) and Kansas City (final game of the season, Dave pulled at halftime for being careless with the ball again). But over his career, even including those two turnover-fests, boasts a pretty low INT rate. Jerry Porter is at least as good as Dennis Northcutt or Ernest Wilford, so he'll have better receiving weapons. His stats may drop off a little, but I imagine he'll have a very nice season this year. Maybe it's my teal-colored-glasses talking, but I'd take Garrard over Romo or McNabb.

Re: Giants WRs

Burress, Toomer, Smith, Manningham, Tyree, and Moss. Hixon and Hall have a shot at unseating Moss, and there's a slight chance that they'll go with 7 WRs, considering that Tyree and Hixon are both excellent core ST guys in addition to their WR duties. If Hixon's gone, Derrick Ward will probably be the KR.

I’m not trying to poo 49 extra passing attempts, mind you, but in this sense I really do not see where it means anything. (post 37)

Is it too early to award this the best sentence of the year?

Or maybe I'm just sleep deprived and incredibly juvenile.

Nah. That sentence is comic gold.

(of course, I respect and appreciate how reasoned the debate was in which that sentence appeared -- it really was in the best spirit of this site)

The Giants have been pretty schizophrenic for a while now, predating even Eli's run with the team, but its ridiculous to suggest that it's a close call between Jason Campbell and Eli Manning right now. Sure Campbell might turn out to be good, but he's about as proven on the pro level as Chad Henne. Eli's taken a team to the playoffs three straight years in one of the toughest divisions in football. Also, Campbell seems just as injury-prone as Schaub, from what I can tell

Campbell injury prone? He has been injured once and thats a dislocation of the knee cap, if he could have played through it im sure he would have. My best friend dislocated his knee cap (it wasnt ontop of his knee anymore but on the side. It took him about 9 months to full recover from him including rehabilitation and it was from playing basketball) If we are seriously calling guys injury prone after 1 injury then we should definately be calling eli manning nothing more then average with his horrible statistics OVER FOUR YEARS.

The only reason they beat the patriots is because his brother had about 100 tips to give him having played them all these years.

Remember the pedigree, all the time this kid has had to prepare with his brother and dad as mentors, all the experience he has had from college and before and then please telling me after watching him play these past 4 seasons as well as looking at his statistics that he simply is not close to being what he should be? Before the post season this year he was not even thought of as good and giants fans themselves were getting ready to call bust on his ass.

"Forget the whether excuses. Everyone piling up on Eli Manning is ignoring the more important context: terrible playcalling. The offense was the most complicated and QB-unfriendly for most of the year, after rapidly increasing the complexity during the past two years.

Toss out the ridiculous option routes, and voila! Eli performs like the QB we always expected him to be. He’s been asked to do far more than all of the other young QBs in the league during the past few years. His playoff performance was absolutely for real, and he’s going to prove it this year."

Umm at least your QB hasnt had to learn a new offense 7 of the past 8 years?

Im still laughing at the redskins at giants game where Eli went 18 of 50 passing. Priceless.

64. One of the only reasons why Sinorice Moss has been a dissapointment, is because he has had pulled hamstrings for much of his career. The 2 yard run back against Washington is one of those freak kind of plays where ELI is doing what he is supposed to be doing ( hitting a WR past the 1st down marker on 3rd down), but his teammates didn't do their part. Eli was far from perfect, but for having big name players like Burress and Shockey, his WR play was far from great ( dropped balls and all).

67. If you would rather have David Garrard than Tony Romo or Donovan Mcnabb, you must either be smoking some real good stuff or seeking attention.

70. A lot of the JC over Eli hype is the fact that a lot of peoples perception of Jason is based not on what he has done, but what he could do. On Eli's side, people don't watch all the Giants games but check out the box scores, or see his INT highlights and assume he is bad. As an NFC East buff, I don't think anyone that actually watches the division would take Campbell over Eli.

71. If Campbell could have played, then why didn't he? Was it because he was being outplayed by a 12 year career backup?

Jason Campbell did get hurt in the Preseason game against the Pittsburgh Steelers, and he was hurt earlier in the Bears game before finally getting KO'D. The problem with Campbell is that he has holds onto the ball a half second longer than he should, and he has a longer than average windup that will mean he will take extra hits in his career ( Leftwhich-like although not as slow).

I just LOVE the argument that Jason Campbell hasn't been good because he has played in 7 offenses in 8 years. So we are supposed to ignore his failures because he changed offenses at Auburn in college? Should we factore in the fact that he had to learn a new offense from his senior year in HS to college too?

Hey don't blame Tavaras Jackson for sucking last year... he had to learn new offenses when he transfered from Arkansas to his DiAA school, and then AGAIN when he went to the pros.... just take it easy on the guy... he has had to keep learning new offenses. Redskins fans crack me up.

Oh and one more thing. Jason Campbell having different coaches has nothing to do with him holding onto the ball too long and having a slower windup/delivery.

I think this division is pretty clear cut as far as QB play goes. The Eagles have an inherent advantage by having the best QB in the division. Romo is #2, The Super Bowl MVP is #3, and Campbell is clearly the runt of the group.

71. You think having weak passing stats on a cold and windy day is funny? I think the Redskins payroll and February paper champions Marty/Spurrier/Gibbs every year is funny. I think the Greatest team ever losing the super bowl to the worst super bowl team ever is funny. But that's just me.

"Im still laughing at the redskins at giants game where Eli went 18 of 50 passing. Priceless."

One of the best things about your team winning the Super Bowl is you can laugh along with the fans of your foes' teams when they laugh at your players, knowing all the while that your team just won the freaking Super Bowl.

Of course, the Skins failing to punch it in from the one earlier in the season was priceless as well!

71. Remember the pedigree, all the time this kid has had to prepare with his brother and dad as mentors, all the experience he has had from college and before...
Am I missing something here or do they not have coaches at Auburn/Redskins Park? Jason Campbell didn't come from some rec league. I talk to a lot of Redskins fans who have bought the "He's so poised" line from Coach NASCAR. He may be brave, he may be tough, he may be smart; but "poised" looks the same as "frozen" when you stand back there and either don't know where or simply have nowhere to put the ball. I sincerely worry for Campbell fans who are hanging their hat on his potential. Hey, someone has to come in fourth. This isn't tee-ball; we're not all *winners*

Toomer was really bad for most of last year, but he was better down the stretch. Knowing that this franchise is the New York Football Giants, they're not going to cut an icon like Toomer. Maybe he'll save them the trouble and go on IR.

They're kind of between a rock and a hard place. While Moss may be in trouble, I still have trouble believing they won't give him one more chance. I just wish he was willing to return kicks though - we had to cut a valuable player last year in Anthony Mix because Hixon had to return kicks.

I'd bet on Hixon getting cut at the moment, with some combination of Bradshaw/Moss/Manningham/whoever returning kicks.

Chris,

You've been claiming for a long time that Campbell was able to play after his injury but was benched in favor of Todd Collins. Now, I follow the team pretty closely, and I've never heard a whisper of this from anyone but you. This leads me to think that it's a total fabrication, unless you can provide evidence.

Now, assuming you have evidence, that still doesn't mean Campbell isn't good. Collins was playing out of his mind in those games, and Campbell would hardly be the first good QB to be temporarily replaced by a backup who was playing better (it happened to Steve Young I believe).

So can you please stop harping on that point?

I think Sinorice Moss will definitely be cut unless Manningham screws up or Moss just flat out looks better than Hixon on special teams.

He just doesn't add anything to the team in terms of value. I don't think it will be the end of his career though, because this coaching staff really hasn't used him well.

The funniest thing about this comments section is the amount of people who think their team's QB is better than Eli despite the fact the other QB has yet to finish a 16 game season.

78- Do you listen to 980? Your Redskin fan Zcabe would tend to agree that coach Nascar was being overly cautious in keeping Campbell on the bench. People all over Washington were talking about the Dilemma of Collins vs a healthy Campbell... who do you go with. The "future" and JC, or the feel good 12 year backup who has stepped up (won) and outplayed him.

People in Washington were talking about how the Redskins ran different plays ( Saunders offense with Collins), and started running more timing routes and ran them better.

As harsh of a Critic of the Redskins as I am, I will admit they opened up the offense. Now did they open it up because they had nothing to lose, or did they open it up because the Redskins coaching staff felt that Collins was further along than Campbell and COULD open it up.

People talked about how Collins was Saunders guy, and Campbell was Gibbs guy. Collins was the vet who has been around for years and years and was more adpt to running Saunders offense, where as Campbell was a big strong guy suitable for Gibbs conservative offense. Gibbs has been known to play favorites since the get go. He strongly favored the old conservative vet Mark Brunell over that younger stronger armed Patrick Ramsey and benched him 1 game into his initial season.

79- Sinorice Moss can add something of value. His lack of height help him in the area of agility. If he would stay healthy and up to his potential ( Hurt 2/2 years so far) then he could be an ideal slot WR. Ideally you would have the big play guy in Burress, good hands/route running with Smith/Manningham, and a young agile slot guy to run crossing/option routes with Moss.

79 - Also, Moss would be able to return punts if needed. His agility/speed combo isn't ideal for KR, but he is ideal for PR.

You can't blame Jason Campbell for getting injured and not finishing the season as a starter... I mean, the guy did have different coaches in HS, college, and the Pros. Throw in the fact that he has a new head coach NOW and we already have excuses for his failures. Don't blame the player, blame everyone around him because Jason Campbell couldn't possibly be overrated.... He is "poised". Nevermind that stretch of 3-5 games he lost all in the