Talk amongst yourselves
8/25: DEN RB, WAS RB
* * * * *
The 2016 KUBIAK fantasy football projection workbook updates all preseason for only $20 -- or get it absolutely free with a $10 first-time deposit at FanDuel.com. Purchase it here!
Click here to buy PDF version.
Top 35 quarterbacks charted for 2015 with scouting notes. PDF only $9.99
Click here to buy PDF version
Like our page on Facebook and get Football Outsiders links directly in your Facebook feed.
Official Account: @fboutsiders
Scott Kacsmar: @FO_ScottKacsmar
Ben Muth: @FO_WordofMuth
Aaron Schatz: @FO_ASchatz
Vincent Verhei: @FO_VVerhei
-- plus --
Ian Boyd: @Ian_A_Boyd
Bill Connelly: @SBN_BillC
Cian Fahey: @Cianaf
Brian Fremeau: @bcfremeau
Tom Gower: @ThomasGower
Rivers McCown: @RiversMcCown
Chad Peltier: @CGPeltier
Rob Weintraub: @robwein
Sterling Xie: @SterlingXie
This thread is for discussion of action on the field during and after Week 11 Sunday Night Football between San Diego and Denver as well as Monday Night Football between Jacksonville and the New York Giants. Rocky Mountain Time Zone bias!
i just had a little joe theismann pop up on my computer and try to sell me a truck when i tried to go to the foxsports site. possibly the single most frightening thing i have ever experienced with the interweb.
Where is everyone?
The NBC graphic just said that the Chargers had "1st and 1." How is that possible?
After the FO description of one of LT's plays, let's see what we notice with SD offensive line play and Lorenzo Neal's lead blocking ability.
It looks like Martyball is back
Nice non-block by Gates.
Terrible missed block by Gates leads to the end of the drive, and close to a QB kill.
Nice play by #83 to knock down that errant pass - it would have been an easy INT otherwise.
this is our country .... on an endless loop
What's with the lack of pass protection for Plummer?
#10- The Broncos want to speed up the Jay Cutler experience?
The Broncos defensive line has jumped around more than once quite a bit prior to the snap. I guess they're trying to find gaps to shoot? Or get a profitable 1-on-1 when rushing the passer?
"This is ouuuuuuuur website"
this is our attitude .... with the photo of a dead race car driver ....
Save the cheerleader...save the world!
Jake Plummer needs to go back to the homeless guy look he had last season.
I just turned on the game, and Antonio Cromartie already looks very good. Talk about a surprise rookie, I didn't think he was going to contribute at all this year.
Interesting to see if the Bolt D comes out with a stronger second-half performance like they did last week against the Bengals.
Kill that damn cheerleader already.
So if the Cincy game was Rivers' "breakout" performance, I suppose this is his "letdown" game?
Real bad decision by Rivers throwing right into zone coverage.
If there's a bright side, it's nice he doesn't make many of those.
LT: what a stretch of dominance the last few games. These are not cheap touchdowns.
yes!!! GO LT!!!
Wow. Really quiet around these parts tonight.
I wish my dynasty league did not die...I had Tomlinson and Palmer...
Madden just referenced "smear the queer"
Looks like a TD to me.
that's a touchdown.
plenty of time left, but were i a denver fan i'd be really anxious about plummer not firetrucking it up.
er, i'd be anxious about that anytime denver's got the ball, but *especially* anxious about that in the next six minutes of game time, that is.
as a an SD fan I am really hoping for Jake to fuck up :)
Why didn't San Diego go for 2?
Wow. Phillip Rivers seems to have Eli Manningesqe "swagger".
Oops, ignore #30.
just let it come to you, chrisv. i don't think the snake will disappoint you.
Time for Martyball!
of course 31 was supposed to be Manningesque. See what happens when you make up words. :-)
you see what i'm saying chrisv?
hehe P Rivers is my second fave quarterback.
Jake Plummer is my first :)
Wow. Perfect run to the 1-inch line and chews time off the clock.
how do you tackle the bomblinson? pick him up and carry him out of bounds, i guess.
Apropos of the MDS "two yards at a time" article on rushing ... here's Mike Bell's rushing line as of this writing:
ATT YDS TD LG
20 90 2 8
4.5 yards per carry without a single one longer than 8?
Weird. He must be the anti-Tatum.
Scoring here is actually a bad thing. Even with a TD they're still only one possession up. Curse your neverstopping legs LT!
With 2 minutes left, 2nd and goal at the 1, do you kneel twice? Denver has no timeouts. You'll have 4th and goal at the 3 with 30 seconds left. If you don't convert, they still have to go 60+ yards in 25 seconds with no timeouts. If you score now, they have 2 minutes to drive and get 2.
take a knee, give it to LT. Hey it rhymes !
when does nbc have to decide what games to flex? I wonder if they chose before today's game with McNabb out for the year.
i say you score ... if you kneel twice you are not sure you will score a td. And then you may lose the game. Otherwise Denver is playing for a tie.
I think he gets 30.
Denver didn't even pretend to play defense on 3rd down there. I might have still kneeled twice, only since they're running all over Denver this game.
Well, more penalties really don't matter, since it's going to be a touchback, probably.
This is going to be a bizarre looking kick off that far down the field.
Umpires should spike the ball *for* LT. That would be cool.
SD's averaging five touchdowns in the second half over the last two games.
also i dug the zoom shot that showed marcus mcneil's double broken hands make him unable to pull up his fly.
Well in my main FF league I have LT, so I'm a happy camper.
Yet in the league where there has been the most trash talking, grandstanding, unnecessary vetoeing of trades and about 200 messages on the message board....I'm playing against him.
Holy crap, I've never seen Mike Shanahan look like he's going to cry before. Literally.
Why not go for 2 there - if you miss and stay up 7, tie game worst case scenario. If you get it, you're up 9 and its over.
sapp: double agent in employ of chargers?
Gee. Perfect kick. BAD slide.
That was the most half-assed throw on 1st down I've ever seen. WTF?
56: missing the 2 would make the broncos feel like they have momentum.
down by 8, a minute left, 90 some yards to go and on second down and 10, a somewhat play action fake????
Love the way that SD has handled the last couple minutes here. Rivers with the half QB sneak on 2nd down, so he wouldn't get the TD but also wouldnt lose yardage. And then kicking off from the DEN 40 after two penalties, kicking it high and short to pin Denver inside the 5. Love it, smart football
Re60: Perhaps, but they're still down 7 and the whole field to go....its a small chance but still a chance.
If SD get the 2, then its time to shake hands.
And right after I say smart football they get a 15 yard penalty.
But dirty plan by Nalen going for his knees on a spike.
Tom Nalen is a dirty bastard.
Re56/60/63 - I'm sure I saw some analysis here somewhere that showed that going for 2 in that scenario is the best option.
Anyone remember where that was?
wow dirty play by Nalen
That was very Raider-esque penalty.
Both of them.
well, if the chargers end up losing in OT by some miracle for denver, at least it won't be blamed on marty ball
Yeah, I noticed the undone fly too. Thanks NBC.
Question: after the two 15-yard penalties after the LDT touchdown, San Diego kicks off from the Denver 40. If SD kicks it off out of bounds, doesn't Denver get it at their own 10? (30 yards back from where they usually get it at the 40?)
How is it legal for Nalen to go for a cut block on a spike?
ahh Jake !
nalen's a douche, but olshansky's an idiot for retaliating.
delay of game on defense? nice moreorless timeout gift for the broncos there.
Well, Jake Plummer happened again.
What the hell is going on with the officials? Where was the defensive Delay of Game? The replay didn't show anything out of the ordinary.
And now two footballs on the field? WHAT THE HELL?
Did NBC cut to the Twilight Zone the last two minutes of the game?
One of the more bizarre final two minutes
That was the craziest ending to a game ever.
Oh, and Tom Nalen is a thug.
why was I.Olshansky ejected from the game?
When the ump tried to pick up the ball after the play was over, Florence picked it up first and threw it.
Anyone else notice that the SD DB flagged for delay of game tossed the football away from the official?
I think that's what got the delay call (delayed the officials from being able to spot the ball).
When the NFL reviews this game the next couple of days, I wonder what kind of fines will be handed down?
Someone describe the ending for the people who couldn't watch?
olshansky was ejected because he punched nalen in the helmet twice.
florence was flagged for DoG for tossing the football several yards away after tackling rod smith.
and yes, that was a ridiculous ending. i especially liked bill carolo's final explanation: (turns on mike) "that's the end of the game." high comedy.
I have tried not to be too exciteable about the Plummer situation all year, but I think it's time for him to go--regardless of whether Denver's still in the race.
At this point, what is he providing that Cutler can't do. Cutler can make just as many bad decisions and/or turnovers. I dare say he might even need less. The Broncos have already throttled back their play book enough that their not going to lose any versatility either.
Let's start the future today. Time for Jay Cutler.
Thanks 82 & 83. M&M mentioned the DB staying on top of the receiver and not allowing him to get up and I didn't see that.
Still, the kickoff... how is kicking OB not the right call there? Why don't more teams do this?
#81 - Because he took a swing at Nalen - that was the correct call. I agree that he was provoked by a dirty play by Nalen, but the smart response would have been to roll around on the ground clutching your knee, hoping the refs eject the other guy.
Still, I hope the NFL takes a look at Nalen's hit and fines him for it.
Gamecenter has yet to give Rod Smith credit for his 14 yard catch on the final drive. Apparently delay of game (throwing the ball away from the official AFTER THE PLAY) is a no-play penalty. Who knew?
That was really stupid of Olshansky, but I can kind of understand why he did it. He has already been injured a couple of times this season, he does not want to miss any more games, the Charger D-line is already missing Castillo, and the Denver offense is famous for trying to injure defensemen by hitting them low.
So I can totally see why Igor got pissed off when the center went for his knees on an obvious spike play. But he should still try to keep his cool, especially when he is winning.
87: The thing is, Shanny is not an overly sentimental guy. I think there's nothing he'd like more than to yank Jake. Which says to me that Cutler just doesn't look ready.
The only thing that would have made this game better is if it would have happened last season and we would have had Mike Patrick, Joe Theisman and Paul Maguire announce it for us.
Paul Maguire: RIGHT HERE! I'M GOING TO TELL YOU, RIGHT HERE. RIGHT NOW. LOOK AT WHAT TOM NALEN DOES. RIGHT HERE. WATCH HIS FEET. BAM.
Joe Theisman: Now that right there is just a disgusting play by Tom Nalen, and an equally disgusting play from Igor Olshansky to try and retaliate.
Mike Patrick: And now we've got sixty-four THOUSAND screaming fans not knowing WHAT is going ON.
Paul Maguire: I'LL TELL YOU WHATS GOING ON, WATCH THIS. HE JUST PICKS UP THE BALL AND....RIGHT THERE. THATS A PENALTY.
Joe Theisman: As far as i'm concerned Drayton Florence should be thrown out of this game for that. Thats just uncalled for.
Paul MAguire: BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA IF YOU DON'T THINK THAT LADANIAN TOMLINSON IS A GREAT RUNNING BACK THAN YOU'RE NUTS. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
Joe Theisman: He's not even on the field right now Paul.
Paul Maguire: Joseph.
Mike Patrick: WHAT A PLAY BY JAKE PLUMMER!
Joe Theisman: Look at the poise right here by Jake Plummer.
MIke Patrick: Lets check in with Suzy Kolber on the sidelines to try and make some sense of whats going on here.
Suzy Kolber: When you think of the Denver Broncos offensive line you probably think of 5 quiet guys that don't talk to the media. But you also probably think of that controversial cut blocking technique that has left opposing players and coachings up in arms about their style of play. It's a tough, gritty style of play, but someones got to do it. Mike, back to you in the booth.
Mike Patrick: THank you Suzy.
Paul Maguire: BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA THIS IS NUTS!
Gamecenter error now corrected.
After watching that game, I think what I have concluded is: that Tomlinson fellow is a good football player. (Of course, had I not been paying attention at all, the 30 times that Madden and Michaels stressed that Tomlinson was a good football player and a good human being might have caught my attention.)
More TDs than over half the teams in the league? I know a lot of those were gimmes, but tonight was against a Denver D that was ranked pretty high in red zone D.
LT was the reason I started watching the Chargers here in SD when they sucked, and I'm feeling pretty good right now being able to watch this future HoFer perform in this city.
89- good call on what Igor should have done. He should take some pointers from the Ukranian soccer team :)
Kicking OB is a good idea on that kickoff, what SD did worked out even better, and it gave them a chance to possibly end the game by recovering the kick. Kicking OB is probably a safer call
yeah, they should have kicked off out of bounds. good catch there--i didn't think of it, since i just assumed that the rule was the other team gets it at their 40. but the rulebook says they get it 30 yards from the spot of the kickoff, which would have been their 10.
on the other hand, i think madden & michaels were wrong to blast the denver KR for covering up the ball. if he lets it bounce, it's a live ball and if it goes up into the air, san diego might well end up with it since their coverage team hasn't had very far to run. he made the right play--it was just a beautifully placed kickoff by kaeding.
#91: totally understandable for Olshansky to be pissed about Nalen, but he's got to keep himself under control in that situation.
And Nalen is a kneehunting urethra of a lineman, but the NFL has had plenty of chances to do something about the blocking strategy and they haven't.
Also, by not kicking it out of bounds, it let four more seconds run off the clock.
93. Nice job. :-)
99: I agree, the KR did the right thing. Worst possible spot for it land, and about the worst bounce it could have taken from there. Good all-around play. But I would have kicked it out of bounds.
#99. agreed on the live ball thing. I was thinking the same thing. Who knows wich way that ball bounces. It was a smart kickoff and IMO the KR had no choice but to field it any way he could to make sure his team at least had posession of the ball.
while we're on the subject of kickoff oddities, how sweet would it be to "onside kick" and recover the ball at the opponents' 3-yard line? :)
On the local post-game show in SD, Olshansky apologized for the penalty, but he also called out the Denver O-line as a bunch of wussies who hold and cutblock, and that that's the only reason Denver is able to run the ball.
Olshansky was asked by local media after the game what he thought about Denver being able to run on them and he explained that Denver's success is largely due to their ability to hold on every play and never have it called. haha
107: Damn. 106 posted while I was reading the rest of the thread.
Richard, did it sound to you that Igor was being censored? The audio on my TV dropped a few times, but that just might be my crappy TimeWarner cable box.
I was about to post about the Olshansky thing too. Good interview. Does he get fined for calling out the officials?
I had sound all through Olshansky's interview.
109: I don't recall him being censored at all.
Bring on Cutler
That Mike Bell kid looks real good. If Denver had Tatum, Mike, and Nash all healthy for a 3-back rotation with a QB that could throw they'd be unstoppable.
And then kicking off from the DEN 40 after two penalties, kicking it high and short to pin Denver inside the 5. Love it, smart football
It would've been a touchback if a player with a functioning brain was back to field it.
There's no choice but to kick it as high as you can there. That or onside it.
114: He couldn't risk not getting possession.
Ahhhh.... I miss the good old days of the Three Stooges and your parodies.
The score was 35-27 with 1:14 left, with San Diego just scoring to take the lead and Ian Gold AND Darrant Williams both picked up unsportsmanlike penalties. I didn't watch until the kickoff, but it seemed like one of them did something to Gerald McNeil during the Extra Point. Denver did not have any Timeouts left as they were trying to keep time on the clock before the inevitable LDT score.
San Diego kicked off from the Denver 40, and Kaeding pooched it high at the goal line. Cecil Sapp was deep in the end zone and falls forward fielding the kick just in the goal line, and falls down at the Denver 2. After 2 incompletes (one with heavy pressure)and a 5 yard pass on 2nd down Denver has 4th and 6. On these 4 downs I think I noticed the SD interier pass rusher (most likely Olshanksy) going pretty high on Nalan, probably hands around the neck.... but they were pretty chippy even before the next play.
On the 4th down play, Plummer gets the ball to Walker for a 20+ yard gain out to the Denver 35. The clock is ticking down to ~ 35 seconds and Denver spikes the ball. After the whistle Igor Olshansky takes two swings at Tom Nalan in the head and ends up ejected. I think one was kind've a back-arm and the other was a punch to the helmet. On replay we see that Nalen went low on Olshansky after the whistle... typical Denver lineman move. Others on the IRC chat thought that he had just fallen down but his helmet definately was heading towards the knee of Olshanksy.
Denver gets a new set of downs around mid-field and Plummer hits Rod Smith in the middle of the field. While Denver the ball is being spotted Drayton Florence knocks it away from the official, stopping the clock.
On the 2nd down play from ~SD 30, Shaun Phillips gets front-side pressure on Plummer who tries to scramble away. Plummer gets hit and fumbles, the ball bounces towards the sideline, as both teams try to recover. I think someone nearly recovers for SD but it gets hit even further up-field and eventually Stephen Alexander recovers the ball with ~ 12 seconds left. He dove on the ball instead of just knocking it out of bounds.
Because the fumble was recovered inbounds the clock is ticking, 12-11-10... Denver lines up in shotgun formation and gets the snap off 1 second after 0. Bill Leavy comes up and tells everyone the game is over as San Diego players celebrate.
All in all, it seemed like the whole ending and even final 10 minutes made it for the all Keep Choopin' Wood game.
He could see it was going into the endzone. If he hadn't touched it, it would've been a touchback. His diving on it brought it out of the endzone. If the kick was to the 5 or whatever, fine. But it was going in the endzone anyway.
Or, he could've just dove on it in the endzone, instead of that boneheaded play. He cost his team field position.
Tough break for Plummer. He might've even gotten away enough to get the ball out, but Phillips managed to swat the ball out from behind. Wasn't a sack as much as it was a strip.
120: A strip is a sack, but your point is taken.
On the OOB kick strategy....wouldn't Denver get the ball where it went out of bounds, unless it went OOB inside the 10? Isn't it 30 yards from the spot of the kickoff, or where the ball went OOB, whichever is greater?
I'm saying he wasn't tackled, which is traditionally what a "sack" refers to.
123: I acknowledged that I knew what you meant.
Can we now retire the claim/defense that Denver's OLine isn't dirty, they just have good strategy? That was disgusting by Nalen, I'd suspend him before Olshansky.
Also, Marty rules! He's got to be one of the top 2-3 coaches in the league.
While people are trying to hand the MVP to Peyton Manning, i think the panel should also give the following people some thought:
LaDanian Tomlinson, Steve Smith, Larry Johnson and Julius Peppers
If LT can do 50% of what he has done over the last 2 weeks, he is a lock for season ending MVP
Extrapolating Drew Brees numbers, he would have the following nos: 4982 yds, 27 TDs and 16 INTs
Didn't see the game, but it sounds like a lunatic finish.
Re #93. Adam I missed the five of you. Come back soon.
89 I strongly disagree. I dislike faking injuries very much. Punching him in the head was the correct response. I would love to see the Denver line survive in the NHL :)
Seriously, the game needs less dishonesty not more. Personally I think teams hould sign guys off the practice squad to try and take out the Denver O-line if its going to act like this, just send them in for a play and have them all jump up and down on Nalens face or something. 5 Practice squad guys ejected, Nalen popssibly learns a lesson.
122: Oh, good call. Forgot about the spot rule.
Anyone else notice that the SD DB flagged for delay of game tossed the football away from the official?
I think thatâ€™s what got the delay call (delayed the officials from being able to spot the ball).
I could have sworn it was the Denver player who accidentally kicked it away as he was getting up, but I could be wrong.
Even if the ball goes into the end zone, it would be live until either a Bronco covers it or it goes out of bounds. If he lets it bounce and it gets away from him, with San Diego kicking off from the 40 there is an excellent chance of a Chargers recovery.
Well, the look on Shanahan's face should tell us that he thought it was a terrible play by his guy. The Chargers have got to be 20 yards away... you have to let it bounce at least once more. Besides, you've got to take some chances in that situation, if you want to win.
I'm well aware of that. It wasn't difficult for Sapp to actually cover it in the end zone.
So... uh... Giants @ Jags! WOOO!
I sincerely hope the Jags approach this like the Philly game. The offensive coordinator's choice should not be run-pass, but merely which running back to run, and which direction.
And the celebrity guest for MNF tonight will be...
Hooray for a potentially football-related interview! (Assuming that Kornheiser doesn't spend all his time asking Ronde if Tiki will be the next Dancing with the Stars champion.) Of course, ESPN was forced into this by there being nobody else remotely worth interviewing within a hundred miles of Jacksonville.
Oh wow... does Theisman always blink like that?
This should be a fun game to watch.
It's Week 11, and Michael Irvin is giving us the inside scoop on... Ballin'?
I want to turn off the TV, but I just don't know how. I DON'T KNOW HOW.
And Ed Werder with the real story behind tonight's game: the Jaguars were ballin' first.
It's the Jim Jones bowl. Can he be the celebrity interview?
Less jump shots, more beer.
I know we've been saying the same thing for years now, but every single hit on 'Jacked Up' tonight was a clear helmet-to-helmet hit.
Especially the Griffith hit.
If there would have been video of it actually happening, I get the feeling that Ben Roethlisbergers motorcycle crash would have made it.
AH YEAH! JAY-Z!
Thats what i'm talking about.
Tony Kornheiser will have my undying respect if he asks Jay-Z about the junk Beyonce is carrying around in her trunk.
"And Ed Werder with the real story behind tonightâ€™s game: the Jaguars were ballinâ€™ first."
This is consistent with the Giants' tradition of stealing other teams' methods of celebrating. The Giants also stole the Gatorade dump (the Bears did it first, it just didn't receive any publicity).
Tom Coughlin discipline in full effect tonight I see.
Joe Theisman is breathing fire tonight and Tony Kornheiser keeps throwing gasoline on it.
Darius is out. The Jaguar defense really declined after he was lost for the season alst year.
surprised no Joe Cullen quip from TK when discussing Del Rio taking off his suit.
Excellent defensive strategy by the Giants: give all the Jacksonville receivers about five yards of cushion, then wait for them to drop the ball.
I think thats a catch and down by contact.
I say incomplete pass.
yeah, looks like it.
Falling down is a football move.
Is it that cold in Jacksonville tonight that everyone has to wear gloves, wool caps, and big eskimo jackets?
48 degrees and possible rain it looks like
so the answer is no. :-)
Thanks, Tony, for challenging Theismann's comment that Eli hasn't been accurate tonight by saying "He hasn't been accurate the last 5 games."
Tirico just called Garrard "Leftwich" before correcting himself a few seconds later.
Oh, so they finally look back in hindsight that the Giants-Chargers trade is terrible for NY? Here in SD, we were totally stoked that NY was giving away their future for Eli.
The similarities of the Giants offense and the Chargers offense right now, outside of the QBs, is uncanny: an elite RB, a tough pass-catching TE, and underrated receivers. The main difference? Manning vs. Rivers.
And now the announcers are saying it wasn't the wrong move?
Rivers + Kaeding + Merriman >>>> Manning
You know what bugs me (as a Giant fan)...is these three clowns telling us how the Giants taking Eli #1 was the right move, franchise QB, you can't look in heinsight, all that stuff...
That's fine. Most Giants fans don't complain about choosing Eli over Phillip Rivers...IT WAS THE FACT THAT WE DEALT AWAY TWO MORE PICKS.
The Chargers had no leverage since Eli wouldn't play there...we could have played hardball...and Rivers would have been a fine fall back if they said no deal...it's not choosing Eli over Rivers...if we had the #1 pick, sure, take Eli.
It's the trading of a 1st round pick the year after (wasn't that the Merriman pick too?), and a 3rd round pick as well...that's the problem, and that's where the criticism comes from.
I don't think these clowns even know that we traded Rivers, AFTER DRAFTING HIM...heck, the Chargers had already made the pick...
If he were named Eli Smith none of it would have happened.
162 - way to beat me by 3 seconds...yep...I'm fine with Manning over Rivers because at the time most people felt Manning was better.
I'm not fine with giving up a 1st and a 3rd rounder, in addition to Rivers...that was just retarded...Eli didn't want to play for San Diego; the offer to the Chargers should have been Rivers + a 5th round pick for Eli, and if you say no, oh well, we'll take Rivers...maybe increase to a 4th rounder if we feel generous.
The other difference would be 20 RB touchdowns. LT > Tiki.
Who the hell is responsible for this new mnf anyway? this is the worst broadcast in sports, and i'm not even talking about the announcers.
Sensabaugh & the Jags' D is looking OK.
Interestingly, the Jags promoted a safety off their practice squad this week to fill a vacant roster spot. Jamaal Fudge looked really good in the preseason, definitely a hard hitter like DD. Not sure how much time he'll see, but I believe the undrafted rookie free agent Fudge would be the #2 on the depth chart if Darius misses a lot of time.
I'm glad they found a way to bring an actual NFL player into the booth and then ask him non-football related questions.
Tirico - "And here's Jeff Feagles, the ageless wonder, 40 years old."
Why would you call him ageless and then immediately say how old he is?
166 - because judging an RB by TDs is clearly the best system...espically when the Giants refuse to use Tiki Barber in goal line situations.
Use some of FO stats...Tiki's comparable, if not better.
Gee, I wonder why Fred Taylor is underappreciated compared to Tiki Barber. Could it be because one of them plays in one of the smallest markets in the NFL and the other plays for the dominant team in the #1 market in the U.S.?
If they don't quit talking about how sexy these guys are......
Because command of the English language (grammar, syntax, vocabulary, or anything else) is no longer necessary to be a broadcaster. Neither is knowledge of the sport you are describing relevant any more. The big question is, can you interview a "celebrity" in the booth?
Totally agree, Adam. Not that there's anything wrong with it . . . .
Which is a shame, because he is a very good back. Not a great one, not a hall-of-famer, but a good running back.
Is Cortez Hankton in the witness protection program or something? When Jones and Williams are playing so bad they may as well be wearing uniforms of the opposing teams, and you're fighting for the playoffs, this is not the time to stick with your unachieving high draft picks.
Tirico gushing about how sexy the Barber twins are is just too much for me.
Can this debacle of a broadcast still even be considered a football game?
Another difference between the Chargers and the Giants is the quality of the offensive lines, especially now with Petitgout injured.
Fair enough, you draft Tiki. I'll take LT any day. One of the two is in the running for being the best running back in the history of the league. Here's a hint, he's not a sexy twin.
I think Henderson should just make it official and legally change his name to "Big John Henderson".
The giants first first down of the night comes on 3rd and 18??
Maybe all the previous third downs were just too easy.
Okay. This will probably cement my status as clueluess white boy. But who else has never heard of Jim Jones?
Whatever happened to....and oh my god. Who was that freakin' guy that tagged the defender from Jacksonville.
Nice interception there, Eli...
They should really bench Eli
It's the Eli and Plaxico experience.
"the Jaguars' defense was all screwed up on that play. Clint Ingram, the rookie middle linebacker, was lined up on the wrong side"
Joey, Clint Ingram is not playing MLB. He's playing OLB. And since the Jags don't have set sides for the OLBs, I doubt he was on the wrong side. You should have known that. How would the MLB be on the wrong side?? How would that sentene have made sense?
Tony, that was a good comparison to the Bears' conversion on third and long last week against the Giants as a real turning point in the game. Of course, Rex Grossman didn't throw a horrible interception on the next play like Eli Manning just did.
And Ronde knows interceptions. Yessir, he sure does.
And ok, Tirico and Theismann ARE PURE ASS
What, no good?
Did I miss something? Why is Jack Del Rio wearing a suit? Was he planning to attend someone's funeral after the game?
Theismann: "Someone is gonna have to explain to me or the guy in the suit down there what pass interference is." Well, it would help the viewing audience if you understood the rules, but what are you going to do if no one explains it to you?
How is that not Illegal Contact if not PI? How?
#191. Eh, not too bad.
Re: Tiki vs. LT
The past few years, with Tiki's resurgence, have shown the two to be very comparable, even in their strengths. LT is a better between the tackles runner and gets goal-line carries, while Tiki is a somewhat better receiver, but both of them have great all-around ability and production as evidenced by their DPAR.
Of course, Tiki is retiring at the end of this year, and while at his best he's about LT's equal, obviously LT's future and overall performance will be superior in the final accounting.
But my comparison was for the purposes of this season, or the past couple of seasons. The Chargers offense and the Giants offense are rather comparable, including Tiki and LT. Their past couple of seasons are nearly interchangeable IMHO.
And what is up with the Barber Brothers retrospective?????
The Jags receivers seem like they have to jump for everything. Garrard has less touch than Leftwich, which nobody thought was possible.
"It's like a Michael Jordan jumpshot. You don't know if it's going to go in."
That may be the most asinine cross-sports comparison I've ever heard.
RE: 197 At least they stopped talking about how sexy they are. There really ought to be a man law against discussing that topic on MNF...
"That may be the most asinine cross-sports comparison Iâ€™ve ever heard."
The night is young, Tally.
180 - interesting, because by a real metric, Tiki's actually better rated.
#197. Easy, they want Tiki to come to ESPN next year. So they can pay him big money and watch him move the ratings as an *announcer*. Yep it's brilliant.
THANK YOU JEBUS!
I'm noticing a trend tonight. Everytime Joe Theisman says something, Tony Kornheisder instantly points out how stupid it is.
The Chargers O-line has been patchwork the last few years. They've held up despite that, but they're not world-beaters.
Apparently, according to the 3 stooges, Antonio Pierce just created a fumble BY WILLPOWER ALONE.
Nevermind that it was Gibril Wilson who knocked out the ball, as Pierce was being blocked and Taylor no longer bad the ball by the time Pierce made contact.
#192. Del Rio does have the "truck driver at a funeral look" tonight.
How can you tell Theismann is saying something stupid? His lips are moving.
No, thank Gibril Wilson.
Taylor fumbles going in for the TD, giants recover, touchback. What a huge, huge fumble. The Jags have absolutely dominated this half and may go in tied.
Apparently its never Eli's fault
Joey Sunshine: Shockey plays with such passion, springing up from the ground after a play.
What Kornheiser should've said: There is one minute left in the half, nimrod! It's a hurry-up offense.
211: How would the Giants tie the game?
203 - I'd be more willing to listen to Tiki than these three nimrods. Ay carumba.
214: Well, they could score a TD. It would help if they could get at least one first down.
Th: What's the feeling down in Tampa?
Ronde: We suck a** and are lucky to have beaten Philly on a last-second 62 yd field goal. I'm really disappointed that McNabb is out for the rest of the year, though, because I won't be able to pick him off twice for TDs during a game.
G: If you think the announcers are excusing all of Eli's mistakes, you turned on the game about a minute ago.
"They're going to be content to let the clock run down, with 8 seconds to go"
on screen: Jags line up and run a play. That play finishes, and they run ANOTHER play
I mean, this is just complete ineptness in the booth.
But I'm not bitter or anything...
199: I'm going to pretend he meant Jacksonville passing is like Michael Jordan batting.
If you took all of the Giants' offensive yards in the first half and gave them the ball at their 20-yard line, they would not be in the endzone. The Taylor fumble wasn't huge--it keeps the Giants in the game but the Giants are not doing anything at all on offense.
Man is that an ugly tie on Berman, it does seem to match his new dye job though.
219 - well, yes and no...the Jags picked up a 1st down and had like 20 seconds to go...then proceeded to stand around fo about 10 seconds, before lining up to run a play. It looked like they actually were going to just go into the half...but then they ran two plays...
Agreed, judging by adjusted line yards and power success rate, the Giants line is better.
You're probably right 218, it's just that i'm getting violently allergic to everything thats coming out of Joeys mouth...
This is a little late (computer's away from the TV) but did Joe Theismann actually reassure Tiki that he'd still be in the "sexy" lineup for People Magazine even if he weren't a twin? That was really TMI.
227: It was Ronde, but Kornheiser has been a little too interested in the looks of some of the booth guests.
I can certainly forgive your frustration with the MNF crew.
Does NY come out with the no huddle here?
I can't wait for Jay-Z to enter the booth.
Tirico - "Joseph, what did you see in the first half?"
Joe - "Exactly what I saw all game..."
As I Giants fan, I am trying to figure out if I can gouge out my ears AND eyes at the same time.....
Man, Eli Manning stinks. I guess the Outsiders were right after all. Later, off to put my head in the oven.
Honestly, would anyone ever take Barber over Tomlinson?
For the heck of it I typed in firejoetheisman.com Someone needs to resurrect that domain.
It only takes one stone to take down a Giant.
I miss the MNF crew that called the Chargers/Raiders game. They were phenomenal.
Ernest Wilford is down, hit his head on a camera I think? Can't they keep that shit where it won't affect the freaking game or injure players? Would the game suffer if there wasn't a camera laying around where somebody could fall into it? It's not like we never see players fall/dive near the sidelines!
13-3 might as well be 42-3 at this point.
It's ok- Eli's just waiting for the 4th quarter to unleash his amazing play.
why don't they line the area behind the endzone with broken glass? the game would be much more exciting that way.
The Giants are the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked.
The only team in the NFC East that is playing like they want to win the division is Dallas.
What a play... too bad Mathis shoved Plax in the face. Oh well.
Let us all just hope that jonnyblazin's damn weiner kids aren't listening.
All that Manning fumble play was missing was Benny Hill music.............
Hi, my quarterback is having the worst game of his career. So let's have have a 2 : 1 pass to run ratio while I have Tiki Barber and Brandon Jacobs in my backfield.
I think if a QB drops back and then runs for his life before fumbling away a ball that gets run back for a TD, and he had absolutely no chance to even think about throwing at a receiver before a very last second attempt to draw an intentional grounding penalty, then nothing that happened in the secondary should matter, penalty-wise, because it had no impact on that play.
Did Joe just say Eli throwing into triple coverage was a good throw?
The contact itself wasn't the problem, since it was at the line. Mathis threw a forearm to the facemask, an may have also gotten a hand under the facemask as well. You can't look the otherway on that.
247: I love it. Then again, I hate Eli Manning and by association, the Giants.
Did Eli Manning really imitate Aaron Brooks and throw a pass backwards?
On the plus side for GIants fans.
If the Steelers can win yesterdays game with the way their offense played for two and a half quarters......then the Giants are still all about this game.
I told you.
248 - the illegal hands to the face was VERY early in the play, like it was on the CB's first bump of Plaxico, so it's POSSIBLE that's why Plaxico wasn't open...it wasn't like a late hold, it was at the start of the play.
Jay-Z in the booth now? For fuck's sake.
Jay-Z retired? Who knew!
Did I actually see Plaxico get a ton of yards after the catch?
Thanks, that makes me feel better.
I thought it was holding or something else like that, cause I was trying to make dinner and missed the penalty call.
It's fitting that Jay-Z is in the booth because this crew has 99 problems and.....
I want to kick my own ass right now.
No, but that wasn't the point. Tiki and LT were similarly productive the last couple of years. My point was to show that outside the QBs, the NYG and SD offenses were comparable, not identical, but bearing some of the same strengths, including very elite RBs. It wasn't meant to elevate one RB over the other, but to propose that all things being roughly equal, what makes the SD offense superior to the Giants' offense has been mostly Rivers' production over Manning's.
The Giants should consider using the no huddle shot gun most of the time. I'm pretty sure Eli is at his worse when he drops back, especially after doing the "Peyton Audible Chicken Dance".
Its probably embarrassing for a number pick to have to take the easy way out to develop some in game rhythm. But hey, gotta use what works.
Jay-Z In tha' house! There are similar booths in Amsterdam that are less prostituted than this one.
RE: Jay Z in the booth
For the first time In my life, I've muted the television during a football game.
You guys didn't forsee Jay-Z in the booth??
You need to learn to EXPECT EVERYTHING
I've figured out why ESPN has all these guests in the booth. It forces you to look at the screen, cause otherwise you don't know what the hell is going on.
Theisman and Kornheiser look extremely uncomfortable next to JayZ as Tirico interviews.
So a serious comment - does anyone think that one reason Garrard may have gotten out of that sack is because Torbor was afraid to hit hard, wrap up, and land on top of Garrard because of the overly-sensitive calling of roughing the passer?
It's good to see Derrick Wimbush.
WTF!? I thought we alreayd suffered through the celeb interview!?? THis is ridiculous. I am actually glad I don't have ESPN. They are showing this game on local tv here in Jax.
They aren't working to Reggie Williams, Joe, they are working on Corey Webster.
I thought they all looked extremely uncomfortable.
WHY ARE YOU THROWING!?!?!?!?
not a smart throw to reggie williams
awful throw to pinball jones-drew
garrard just doesn't seem to have the vision to throw down at the goalline.
#268. Ditto. I am watching the local feed in NY. I haven't had ESPN for a few years, and I do not miss it one bit. Just think, people actually pay money for ESPN.
Yeah, I noticed a similar play in the NE/IND game when Freeney could have tackled Brady but he wasn't sure if he had the ball, so he nudged him and Brady then ran away from him and threw a completion.
If this were the NBA, Burress would have been T'ed up for "showing up the refs."
Whats lost in the discussion of that play is Burress never should have had to bobble it.
Really, with where that throw was he should have been able to catch that in stride and walk into the endzone.
Problem was, Giants should have done a quick QB sneak after that play, not try to set up a real play, they would have gotten away with a HUGE gain had they just done that. But at least I know Jay-Z is a Dallas fan. Kill me.....
Not as clear on this play. Maybe someone who thought off nailing him while he was in the grasp slowed down. But I know what you mean. There where at least three better examples of this thinking yesterday, particularly on Pitt's. last drive. Time for the rules commitee to look at 'in the grasp' if they're going to be calling so many ticky-tack roughing penalties.
#276 - I agree, makes it even worse.....
New Vegas bet: Who's next in The MNF Booth? Next week in Seattle will be...Jack Black, because his new movie will be out and it makes as much sense as Christian Slater.
But then, you'd think that when you have 150 yards in 3 quarters of play, you'd run the ball from 5 yards out of the endzone. Especially when everybody KNOWS your receivers cannot catch the ball!
Wow. THAT is what Matt Jones was drafted to do!
Now. POUND THE DAMN FOOTBALL INTO THE DAMN ENDZONE!
Seriously, if the Jags out-cute themselves out of a touchdown, fire Carl Smith.
That should juuuuust about do it.
Someone tell "Ocho-Cinco" he's allowed to do a designed dance with the mascot...he'll come up with something insane.
Go team that Eli doesn't play for!
Come on Giants.........
Jones did something!!! Finally a double-digit lead. Still plenty of time, with Plex you can never tell.
Manning is 9 of 26 for 115 yards, 1 TD and a pick.
34.6% Completion %
46.2 QB Rating
Dude's a stud.
I don't know. If I played for the Jaguars or was a Jaguars fan, I might be just a little honked off that Bobby Mccray(?) gets up after a sack and points to his name like that.
Dudeâ€™s a stud.
Peyton's under-study's a dud, you mean.
13 runs for the Giants? Although he's no LT, they do have a pretty damn good RB back there.
as a charger fan, i am again reminded how glad i am the giants had such a hardon for eli manning
11 of 29, 141 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT
36.7 QB Rating
I wanna really want to see what Eli does under a new coaching staff.
yeah but wait until the 4th quart..... ummmm.... forget it.
Barber's been hurt the last couple of weeks, but I don't know who number 27 on this roster is. Of course, since My qb has been sucking, and my new left tackle couldn't block a blade of grass without Tiki Barber helping chip on every pass play( Tiki also being the only safety valve for a qb who has a very bad game). So i'm just going to have him throw the ball 3000 times.
Jim Jones is a rapper from New York City, part of the rap group "The Diplomats" along with Cam'ron, Juelz Santana, et al.
#295. Better hope any new staff keeps Plaxico around. :-) I guess if the "disciplinarian" Tom Coughlin let's Plax get away with his tendency to loaf several times a game, then a "regular" coach will too. Gee, I wonder why Coughlin *does* let Plaxico get away with what he gets away with. :-)
Appearantly three games is enough to annoint Tony Romo as the best QB in the NFC........
The Seahawks receiver put himself on the map with a numerical explosion in the second half of last year, but Cian Fahey shows that Baldwin has been very good for a long time now.
See All XP | NFL XP | College XP
© Football Outsiders, Inc. // Site powered by Stein-Wein // Partner of USA TODAY Sports Digital Properties