Talk amongst yourselves
PDF NOW DISCOUNTED
Click here to buy PDF version.
Click here to buy PDF version
Like our page on Facebook and get Football Outsiders links directly in your Facebook feed.
Official Account: @fboutsiders
Scott Kacsmar: @FO_ScottKacsmar
Ben Muth: @FO_WordofMuth
Aaron Schatz: @FO_ASchatz
Vincent Verhei: @FO_VVerhei
-- plus --
Ian Boyd: @Ian_A_Boyd
Bill Connelly: @SBN_BillC
Cian Fahey: @Cianaf
Brian Fremeau: @bcfremeau
Tom Gower: @ThomasGower
Bryan Knowles: @BryKno
Rivers McCown: @RiversMcCown
Chad Peltier: @CGPeltier
Andrew Potter: @BigHairyAndy
Rob Weintraub: @robwein
Carl Yedor: @CarlYedor61
This thread is for discussion of action on the field during and after Week 13 Sunday Night Football between Seattle and Denver as well as Monday Night Football between Carolina and Philadelphia.
Question about Cutler. I get that he has a strong arm, but was that ever really a weakness for Plummer? Didn't he have a cross-field 70-yard throw earlier this season?
It's not Plummers arm- it's his head. His decision making is off, and at this point in his career it's not going to get better. The thought process in Denver is that Cutler appears to be smarter, and it can't get any worse. I didn't say I agree with that- I'm just repeating talk show babble.
Quoted from the Fox Sports GameTrax preview:
DOLPHINS: Few teams run well against Jacksonville, especially with massive defensive tackles Marcus Stroud and John Henderson clogging interior running lanes. Still the key to Miami's success in its four-game winning streak was a commitment to the run that wasn't there when the Dolphins opened at 1-6.
That is interesting, because not only do we know that you run more because you are winning, but also because THE DOLPHINS WERE THE FIRST TEAM SINCE THE 70'S TO WIN WITH NEGATIVE RUSHING A FEW WEEKS AGO!
Sorry about the yelling, it seemed necessary.
I bet dollars to donuts that tomorrows booth interview is none other than Rocky Balboa.
As somone who has watched virtually every Broncos game that Plummer has ever played in, I can say that is arm strength is, in fact, something of a prolem.
If I remember correctly, the 70 yard, cross-field pass to which you refer (I think vs. Indy) was probably actually about 40 yards of which maybe 30 were in the air. He made the receiver come back for the ball. He virtually never hits a receiver in stride--with the errors being usually underthrows instead of overthrows.
Plummer's other "complementary" problem is that his accuracy is poor. So it's hard to say whether he's consistently underthrowing receivers becuase he's weak or because he's wild.
4: 100% chance.
I am calling it right now: Philly wins tomorrow night. Tonight, I'm going with Seattle, but that's not something to brag about.
I thought the decision to trade two first round picks for a rookie quarterback when the team was coming off a conference championship appearance was suspect from the beginning.
I'd desperately like the kid to prove me wrong.
they misspelled separated on the sign, haha
Well, still, Cutler's track record at Vandy was impressive, and the PFP projection system likes him. How much longer were you going to be able to stand Plummer's inconsistency?
I thought the decision to trade two first round picks for a rookie quarterback
Scratch that. They traded no. 22 for no. 68, which accompanied no. 15 in the Cutler trade. My being baffled that a team with championship aspirations would draft a quarterback instead of using its multiple first round picks to improve itself stands, however.
Woo, first down!
the denver guards are really small
It's so weird seeing the Seahawks making good special teams plays. That's been our weakness for years.
Now if we could just stop dropping passes...
How much longer were you going to be able to stand Plummerâ€™s inconsistency?
Well, at the time I expected him to do a passable impression of his 2005 self. And it's kind of unknowable whether he would have had the offseason played out differently. With a team that was so close, I'd have taken the chance.
That punter should be cut. Doesn't he know that he plays for Denver, and that he's supposed to dive into someone's knee after the play? You can't be doing that without a helmet!
Ah the ol' 3rd and very long draw play. The Seahawks are so predictable.
Did anyone see how Jones got hurt? Cut block?
Well that's the Seahawks season. How the football gods do hate us.
Hopefully the first of many.
18 - Jones only missed one play, didn't see the play where he got hurt
Plummer could've done that.
Wow, there's the break we needed.
Hey, Plummer's back in! Oh.
OK, when did Plummer go back in?
There is no way Plummer would be able to lead this offense like Cutler is right now. *sarcasm*
Yeah, but for Cutler, it's a learning experience so far. For Plummer, it's a bad habit.
Now if only we had run defense...
*bangs head on wall*
Why didn't Denver review that? It looked like it might have been an incomplete pass.
Cutler gets to be the next QB every Denver fan will hate because his name isn't "John Elway".
Most of the fans stuck by Plummer until his latest run of bad games. And I think most of us are glad that he's there as the backup right now.
Be a man. Go for it.
What was the point of that?
Get closer and run the rest of the time off the clock?
Make sure the fg was the last play of the half (our kickoff coverage is awful) and make it a closer kick...
I love plays which involve the kicker running for his life. Always amusing.
Is anyone surprised that Elam is limping off of the field after that?
I'm guessing Shanahan read your post #34!
That was just Plummer, as the holder, putting his stamp on the play.
Seriously, I'm a big fan of Shanahan (fantasy RB implications notwithstanding) but this game is giving me a nervous tic.
This Chad Johnson interview is compelling television.
Is he high?
On the subject of quarterbacks who aren't Elway, I was always quite fond of Brian Griese. If he hadn't gotten hurt in 2000, they could've done some things.
We'll always have that bitchin' game against the Raiders. *sigh*
At least Cutler throws a slant better than Plummer
Find a warm place on the bench, Mike.
You know, you can say what you want about Plummer, but Shanahan's method of replacing him is looking increasingly ill planned. Considering how even Madden is pointing out how little practice Cutler got with the first team before being bumped up to starter, is it surprising that he's fumbling snaps and missing handoffs? Replacing him is a coaching decision, fine, but the amount of advance practice time he gave him certainly seems debatable.
And for the record I'm not saying that handoff fumble was on Cutler, but it's pretty clear these things tend to happen more when, you know, the QB and RB have never actually handed off to each other.
Since no one else has said it, I will. Tatum is having an excellent game. I'm glad he's back.
Al Wilson gets carted off the field, and then on the next play Tatum bell needs help to come off the field. Better luck next year Denver.
Has a kicker ever actually forced a fumble before?
This just keeps getting better and better.
Where the hell was the penalty?
Where the hell are the people?
I actually saw the penalty - a Seahawks jersey was being stretched as the flag was being thrown - but it seemed ticky tack. It wasn't a phantom call, but it wasn't the world's best either.
Oh and John Madden, the reason Hasselbeck is handing off the ball is most likely because the Seahawks are trying to drain the clock. I feel like I'm writing TMQ right now.
I'm loving the Jay Cutler era so far.
Well, I suppose at least it wasn't a bad throw, but I suppose the outcome is basically the same.
It's hard to play quarterback in the NFL?
Hell, there goes my fall back career......
When I see Madden wearing that heavy overcoat during games, do the stadiums that he visit not install windows in his press box, or does he just like to dress up to match the people in the stands, because it seems pretty ridiculous to be wearing that inside.
The Seahawks have tried really hard to lose this one, but it appears that the Broncos want it even less.
Man, if Brown had only hit one of those field goals in the first, I'd be feeling a lot better now.
oh.my.god. Now that was just sad.
I don't believe it.
Ok, I do believe it, but still.
That one's on YOU zzyzx. Jinxy bastich, you.
Incidentally, what happened? I'm relegated to GameChannel here...
My "HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!" appears not to have gone through.
What's that music -- really just a vocal with the "na na na na, hey hey hey, goodbye" melody and rhythm, but slower -- that every NFL team plays before kickoffs? Like Denver just did there?
That was a great play by Jay Cutler to break all those tackles!
Anonymously: Cutler throws about an 8 yard pass to Brandon Marshall, who breaks three tackles and runs a billion yards for a TD.
These Rex Grossman pro bowl voting commercials are now unintentionally brilliant.
Michaud: InconCEIVable! The Seahawks are known for their sure tackling!
Oh, come on, the throw was at least fifteen yards...
I'm sure all we will hear is how Cutler does is win football games now...
Awesome coverage by Seattle - a 22-yard cushion with a 7-point lead and over 2 1/2 minutes left isn't the least bit excessive. Follow that up with some of the best tackling this side of the Tecmo Bowl version of the Dallas Cowboys, and we have a clinic on how to blow a lead in ten seconds in humorous fashion.
But somehow Madden and Michaels are finding a way to praise Cutler for coming up with a big play. Sweet merciful crap, that was a throw I seriously believe I could've made. Come on, it was just the Seahawks going all Najeh Davenport on their possible win. Nothing more than that, Seattle just bit it big-time. Not that any of us should really be surprised, but really any praise of Cutler on that play is borderline excessive.
Doubtful, Shane... ;)
Does ANYbody want to win this game?
Um..... a run is not a pass, Madden.
Now thats a helluva kick.
Josh Brown does!! WooooooT!
Well, he's no Rob Bironas, but I'll take it!
It's just as well. This team isn't winning a damn thing, so they might as well get the best draft position they can.
Some really ridiculous penalties called today. In the Giants game, they called an illegal crackback on the Giants, when no such crackback happened.
Tonight, they called defensive holding on #97 of Denver on a running play by Seattle. There was no holding. #97 got driven out of the play.
With the records of the potential wild cards teams for the NFC this year, I wonder if any team will again be 8-8 or if they'll do one better this year and we'll have a 7-9 team in the playoffs.
Wow, the only quarterbacks on the week with multiple TDs and no picks: Eli Manning, David Garrard, and Michael Vick. Heh.
Re 83: While it was definitely a close call, there was defensive holding on #97 on that play. it was hard to tell from the angles they showed, but it looked like he grabbed one of the two guys blocking him as that guy was going to block another player, and the ref was right there. The fact that it had little outcome on the play is irrelevant.
Re: 52 Actually Phil Dawson caused a fumble in '99 against the steelers that led to the Browns actually winning, so it has happened before even if Kris Brown didn't really cause the fumble, but just make a nice hit. And speaking of nice hits how about that block by #21 I think on that last return.
Lol, someone on another board was trying to argue that Plummer is a better quarterback than Carson Palmer. Maybe in his dreams...
Ok David... ummm... mind telling me what the gist of his argument was? How could anyone in their right mind make that claim?
Well, Plummer does have more career wins. More playoff wins, too. As deeply as I had to reach into the colon of football arguments to come up with this, I wouldn't doubt if this would be the guy's best argument.
"Plummer, with his record of wins and losses, is better than Palmer and his sheer lack of mobility."
is what he said, and also:
"In terms of ints, he doesn't have much more than any other starting QB; they're just more noticeable because he tends to let them all happen at once."
(Plummer has the 6th most in the league, with less pass attempts than any of the 5 QBs with more).
I'm starting to think that my despair powers the Seahawks through "spooky action at a distance." As long as I'm sitting down, cowering in in the light of the tv, gnawing on the pillows and furniture they seem to play just well enough to eek out a victory. If I become the least bit excited or optimistic, they expectorate and smear it all over. Clearly Boulware did little to distinguish himself in that game, not a good year for him.
re 86, it was Chris Spencer's (#65) left shoulder which was getting held. Though, given that the holding was occuring out of the play, it'd probably be better if it wasn't called. Which is sort of a league wide observation.
PS-- Is there a discussion thread dedicated to Josh Brown's clutchness and flare for creating dramatic kicking situations though earlier missed attempts?
From the AP recap of the game, "(Cutler) looked like a raw rookie for most of the night, but did show flashes of brilliance, such as his touchdown pass to Marshall."
How can they say this with a straight face? The 10 yard pass he threw to a receiver that then broke 3 tackles and took it 71 yards was a "flash of brilliance"? I could be the Einstein of NFL QBs if that's the prerequisite.
It's almost silly to take anything away from Cutler's 1st start in the NFL, however you do have wonder exactly what Shanahan was thinking in waiting this late into the season, with apparently limited 1st team reps, to start the kid.
I think most of us can all recall the early struggles of Petyon, Carson Palmer, and even Elway. He definetly looks like he's at least a year away from developing into resembling a solid starter.
That said, he does look like he has the tools. Tight spirals, solid arm strength, etc... but I guess that is too expected from a 1st round pick.
The decision-making and the football smarts isn't something we're going to find about until sometime late next year at the earliest. Or in Michael Vick's case, sometime in the next decade...
I'm as frustrated with Plummer's play this year as anyone, but am still perplexed at Shanny's decision.... sigh...
#93: Consider then, that today, despite turning the ball over 5 times, Denver scored more than their season average.
I played this with Harrington last year, and correctly guessed Miami, because "[t]hey already started his college backup."
So, where does Plummer end up next year?
I'm guessing the Lions. Mike Martz has seen Josh McCown, and wants to go straight to the source, brining Jake the Snake to Detroit.
You know USC screwed up the TOs on Sat vs UCLA.
After the pick they called a TO.
The clock starts on the change of possetion so they saved :25 seconds there.
They should have let those 25 seconds go though and used that Time Out instead after 3rd down.
The tackle on 3rd down happened at :53, the play clock didn't start until :39.
So they lost :14 secs waiting for the refs to spot the ball in addition the :25 after the ball was spotted.
They could have saved those :14 second by not using the TO on the change of possesion
So... Stallone for booth interview? he already got in on pre-game...
My thoughts on last night's game:
-Tatum Bell looked awesome, but I'm confused how a Seahawks' D that has Tatupu and Peterson playing linebacker could be tackling this badly in their Run defense. Is that Seattle defensive line really bad against the run?
-Cutler looked lost. There's no way that people should sugarcoat it; his touchdown passes were two great plays by his receivers. Marshall on the long one, and a nice tip-catch by Stephen Frickin' Alexander. He can't count on that happening much. I still think Cutler will be a good long term solution, but he looked thoroughly unprepared.
-Don't throw deep on Champ Bailey! It seems to me that you can afford to try to try slants and ins against him, but not fly patterns or other deep routes. His catch-up speed is just too good.
-Jason Elam should be pissed at Shanhan if that was a called trick play.
-Hasselbeck's working his way back, but he's clearly not 100% yet. Alexander looked good in the second half.
Overall, I'm impressed this season with the resilency of Seattle. They're a team that gets some flak for being 'soft' in recent years, but what they've done given injuries is impressive. Given that they look like a lock for the play-offs, I think they have a shot at repeating as NFC champs as long as Grossman is the Bears' QB.
With regard to Denver, I still think their Defense and the Bells can carry them to the play-offs. KC screwed themselves over by losing to the Browns, and if I'm not mistaken, Denver has a chance to play Cincy and KC as the season winds down. They control their own destiny; KC and Cincy have touch schedules, the Jags are schizos, and I think the Jets will grab the other WC spot. (Viva el Chad!)
-Jeff Garcia isn't anything special, having declined to back-up status, but he's solid enough that if Westbrook has a good game, I don't think Garcia will hurt the Eagles.
-What happened to good ol' "above average" Jake Delhomme?
-The Panthers won't be able to to burn the Iggles Run D. That'll be the key. I'll call it: Eagles by 3
Troy Polamalu Miis!
This just in: the Panther's are playing zombies on offense.
confirmed - Stallone will be booth interview. way to kill the suspense...
YAY FOR ME!
I've always liked Jeff Garcia but that may have been the worst pass I've ever seen.
Garcia looks sharp. Damn, this is goona be a long night.
99, it's not reading the server. Is it down?
I thought the Raiders were the NFL team least in the NFL.
I still think the decline of the Philly defense is due to losing the great CB duo of Taylor-Vincent back when you could put a hand on the WR. Now it's too hard to play defense like Jim Johnson wants unless you have Champ Bailey and Chris McAllister lining up at corner.
Re: 99, 106
Try bendenweyr.dnsalias.com - the other server went down.
Same server, different DNS. Stupid mistake.
bendenweyr.dnsalias.com is correct.
I assume the choice of Rocky in the booth is because the announcers don't want to be embarrassed by having an eloquent speaker in the booth with them.
How tall is Garcia? 5'5"?
Middle of the second quarter. Panthers have the ball on the 13-yard line. They are up 7-0. ELO is playing on the stadium speakers. Mike Patterson misses an easy sack. I could use a cold beverage.
Dear Andy Reid: please, please don't put your most valuable, most fragile player back to receive punts.
Cold beverages are always good, but Delhomme dumped the ball off for a two yard loss. If I'm an Eagles fan, I'm fine with that.
#114: Most valuable, sure, but this team still has Correll Buckhalter. And McNabb actually might qualify as "most fragile/most valuable" as well.
For christ's sake, where's Robo Punter when you need him?
"Didn't it look like he was holding on every play?"
No, you dipwad. Holding doesn't get called when your hands are inside his frame.
It's what Eagles fans have been waiting for! The deadly Garcia-Stallworth combo!!
ahh there's Jason Short with his regular ST penalty.
and Donte Stallworth just signed his contract for next year with that one hander!
Wasn't contact like that called in every other game practically as PI? I like the non-call, but its certainly been called for less.
Woohoo! Touchdown Eagles! C'mon boys, make my prediction come true!
heh, he had to 1 hand it because he was doing some serious PI with the other...
114 - True, but I meant their most valuable/most fragile player remaining in the lineup.
re. 118 so on half those clips when they were outside his frame and pulling the jersey those weren't holds either?
Uh, what? I agree that contact like that has been called PI, but no way that was offensive pass interference. He wasn't pushing off or gaining space.
And I hate the fact that intentional grounding doesn't result in a sack if there's a QB hit involved. Yes, it only involves stats, but if there's a penalty specifically in existence because someone's trying to avoid a penalty, it should count in the stat.
I was actually referring to at least three of the clips where it was really textbook offensive lineman form.
On the others, hands being outside the frame typically won't kill you if a defender's not trying to get away, because the officials can't see it. To be fair, that's what they mentioned in the commentary.
Uh oh. Cheerleaders wearing winter vests, Eagles are gonna lose.
Delhomme pick-6 coming...I can feel it.
back from watching heroes. did I miss anything in the first half?
You missed Rocky in the booth.
Wow, that was a mugging.
So, since defensive pass interference basically means that the WR "would've" caught it, or had a good chance to, why is it that offensive pass interference doesn't mean that the CB "would've" caught it, and causes a change of posession at the spot of the foul? The premise is the same.
Jeff Garcia is channeling...Jeff Garcia in his last year with the 49ers. But seriously, Eagles D looks good, Panthers have only had one good drive, and the Eagles scored on a pass to Westbrook to tie it. Overall, looking like just the kind of game the Eagles want to get into to.
Wait a second. Shouldn't time be run off the clock here?
I thought they were missing something there.
Steve Smith wow.
Dang, that was a nice play by Smith.
OK, Theismann and Kornheiser are channeling (doesn't take much) their moron selves: it's a stupid rule that they can use a timeout to avoid a ten second runoff? The ten second runoff is because the clock stopped under a penalty. Without the penalty, the clock would be running - and you'd call a timeout to stop the clock. It's not a stupid rule. It makes perfect sense.
Reminisicient (sp?) of the TD catch he made in the super bowl against my Pats in 2003. Good stuff.
They should've called a facemask there, too.
They exchanged 15yd facemasks as he went out of bounds, I guess the officials called it even and want to get in out of the cold.
THAT WAS NOT CATCHABLE, DAMMIT!!
I'm definitely with you that there needs to be different degrees of offensive pass interference penalties. Sometimes a WR pushes off to get separation, that should be a 10yarder, but when the WR tackles a DB to prevent an INT, there has to be a loss of down involved in the penalty.
He's a pro, he comes to work, he does the dirty things, and he's cocky? Talk about damning with faint praise.
*Gus is currently yelling at his TV while typing this*
Seriously! How do you call PI when Delhomme threw it out the back of the end zone???
Ugh. Well, at the Iggles are in it. Hate to end the half like that.
Sorry Gus, buts its passÃ© to only call PI calls on catchable balls since the end of the 90s.
Should I point out that Bush wasn't the incumbent in 2000?
sheez watching commercials you'd think everyone else gets a lexus for christmas...
Don't stop him. He's on a roll.
Facts are also passÃ©.
Wow, a celebrity and a musical guest. Is this MNF or SNL?
What, no Flava Flav?
Ali Rap. Is Ali watching this?
I turn the channel for 2 minutes and i'm welcomed back by this.
What is this?
Yes Keyshawn, very impressive beating a third-string safety for that TD. Why wasn't Considine in anyway?
"Jakes Delhomme continuing his streak of 3rd down and struggling? "
remind me, joe, what did Delhomme do his previous 3rd down....
David: Considine was in. It's Lewis being out who brought Mikell in.
I love it when they release a movie with "never before seen footage". yes, that's right. we found some film in a room, and gave it to a blind guy and told him to copy it onto the DVD master. We have no idea what's on it.
"Can you imagine this team without Donovan McNabb and Brian Westrbook?"
So would that be...exactly what happened last year?
WHY, IN THE F-ING HELL, DOESN'T PHILLY USE BUCKHALTER IN SCREENS MORE?
Sorry for that. But Buckhalter's DVOA receiving is nuts. This year, it's 15.4%. In 2003, it was 34.0%. In his first year, it was -8%, which isn't bad for a rookie as well.
The guy is just built for running screens, and Philly does not use him. Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid.
157 - Where was Dawkins then? Or are they playing with 3 safeties?
Joe - "Westbrook is better served playing receiver than runner, he cannot run against this carolina defense.... when carolina gives up less than 100 rushing yards they win."
what? so the logic... (nice TD pass while I type this).... is that because Carolina will win if you don't run.... it is better to put westbrook out as a receiver because he won't be successful running on them? is that the train of logic going there?
Who is this quarterback, and what did he do with Jeff Garcia?
And more importantly, can we keep him?
Not sure where Dawkins was. Considine was visible right after the play, though.
I think they were in dime, though, so Mikell would've been in with Lewis out.
"is keyshawn a hall of famer"... "that is the question"...
No. that is the answer.
That screen floated like a Grossman deep ball.
Eagles safeties are not having a good game at all.
Did both teams decide tackling should be optional at this point?
Wow, Westbrook is just the man!
"Much like McNabb, Garcia does not throw many interceptions"
Holy crap! I had to go check this myself several times. Apparently I've completely forgotten this, but they're right: Garcia throws an interception only once every 40 passes or so. That's probably one of the lowest interception percentages of any active quarterback
Now I know why they picked up Garcia. Interceptions are a death knell for Philly's offense.
Good ol' Philly fans. So supportive.
For all the bad roughing the passer calls this season, that's a good one. The Panthers player (can't remember who it was) tried to knock Garcia's head off.
"I think they're cheering against Jeff Garcia."
They booed McNabb calling for Feeley. They're not cheering against Garcia. Eagles fans just have an unhealthy love for AJ Feeley.
I think it's because his girlfriend's hot.
Disgraceful. Garcia has done a pretty good job so far tonight, and they still boo him when he gets hit.
If those boos were really intended for Garcia, then those fans have no souls. Garcia, if nothing else on those two plays, proved himself one tough SOB by getting back up after that second hit.
Personally I'd have been booing the awful pass he let off as he was being driven into the ground, although he's been ok besides that.
No, no. The booing was definitely because they love Feeley.
Trust me. Unhealthy love. Hot girlfriend.
Feeley sucks. He was awful as the Miami QB. Garcia at least has had some decent seasons, not to mention a good game.
But yes, obviously Heather Mitts is skewing the discussion.
Dude, this is Philly. No one watches Miami.
Well, since the Pats play in the same division as the Fish, I can tell you that the only damn thing Feeley did as a starter was throw that ****ing TD pass two years ago on Monday Night against the Pats, leading Miami to a WTF?! 29-28 victory. The Pats were 14-2, and one loss was to th 4-12 fish. Ugh.
That was the game Brady was picked when he threw a pass sitting down.
Can any Panthers fans tell me what is up with Maake Kemoeatu? As a Ravens fan I figured Kemo would be the next in the long line of free agents unsigned by the Ravens who ended up sucking on other teams. You'd figure with Rucker, Peppers, Jenkins around him he could suck up a few more tackles than he has so far (19 for the year, after a $26 mil contract). Does he even play regularly?
That sounds like an exceptionally questionable decision by Brady. Did he ever have a sound-bite about it?
Yeah, I think he said: "You play the game to win. " When questioned about it.
If that's a serious question, I have no idea. Rest assured, our golden boy is human. He had completed a pass the previous week after falling on his ass, and he tried to do the same thing on the MNF game against Miami.
Good hold by the Iggles, let's go Garcia!
YES! Tie Game.
I have no idea why I'm so pumped for this game. Maybe too much Mountain Dew in the system.
Kemo hasn't sucked, hasn't been stellar either. Just another big body in the rotation, mostly plays on 1st and 2nd down and comes out with Lewis coming in.
whoops. Who was that supposed to be too?
See, Philly has to go up for a bit so that they can lose the game on the last play again...
Okay...so Delhomme's pick wasn't a pick-6, but it might turn out to be the turning point in this game. That was huge.
Theisman is a moron. "You just can't hang the ball up in the middle of a football field."
Andy Reid's brain...paging Andy Reid's brain...
That was a silly play call.
So. for you Eagle followers... do the Eagles miss in any way what Brad Childress contributed to their offense?
That was one hell of a trick play. I think the trick was one the Eagles though.
Well, that was the worst play-calling of the game.
1st Down-Brian Westbrook is the only player behind center, running play not a surprise, gains nothing.
2nd Down-Roll-out play to Julius Pepper's side of the field. Garcia throws for a three-yard gain to the fullback
3rd Down-Cutback run with Westbrook, not a prayer of gaining yardage.
Oh well, Philly's up now, as Akers just hit the kick. Scroll back to post 98, and you'll see I'm looking pretty good right now.
I think we miss Childress about as much as McMullen right now. We're not hugely much better off without him but there's potential to improve now at least. If only we can get Andy to ease up on the playcalling more often..
Uh oh, Delhomme's "clutchiness" stats. Do these guys in the booth ever consider that the reason Jake the Fake has move comebacks since 2003 than Manning or Brady is that the Panthers are behind more than the Patriots or the Colts? In part because Delhomme's not as good as either one?
Why do I bother asking that question.
i predict delhomme will do something stupid.
Steve Smith reverse to the seven. C'mon Eagles...
Well, good lord.
Pick?! Pick?! Pick?! Pick?! PICK!!
I hope congrats are in order Gus! drinks are on you!
That was positively Favreian.
That's some serious illegal contact by the DB there.
If it isn't a pick, Keyshawn should get a penalty for taking off his helmet, right?
about 4 other teams int he NFC are also celebrating.
I blame Keyshawn more than Jake for that one. Looks like he stopped and jumped rather than keep running.
#206... Giants fan here that has never cheered so loudly for Philly.
How was that not a penalty on the DB? What a waste of time watching a game only to see it end on a play where the ref blew a call.
It was definately pass interference, but that wasn't why they lost. For the second straight week, Delhomme threw an INT that you just simply can't through if you're going to win a game.
So I guess, as an Eagles fan, this is where I start to care again... only to have my hopes crushed anew in a few weeks. Awesome.
No problem, er...I have some vodka in my fridge...hmm...that's about it.
Can't see how that was a penalty. The jam took place five yards from the LOS, and the rest was clean. Overthrow by Delhomme, but a worse play by Johnson. Looked like he jumped too soon.
Great game. Best MNF game this year, I'm so glad I watched instead of getting work done. Congrats to the Iggles, their fans, and my boy Garcia.
Pythagenpat rankings at my name.
They never showed a good angle on it, but it looks like that pick belongs to Dawkins flying over the offensive line and forcing Jake to release the ball somewhere directly above his head.
Why aren't the Panthers RUNNING THE BALL from the seven yard line with 30 seconds to play and two timeouts?
Again I say: Who was that quarterback, what did he do with Jeff Garcia, and please, dear God, can we keep him?
Oh, and damn, what a great interception return by Dawkins. The interception was easy. Returning the ball 38 yards through a swarm of Carolina defenders was not.
Jeez. I'm so glad Dawkins is finishing his career in Philly. I really, really hope he gets voted into the Hall of Fame.
That was a great play.
I leave you all with this thought, brought to you by the post game show:
Michael Irvin is a complete idiot.
That is all, good night.
217: I hear that! although my heart was in my mouth when he was looking like trying to lateral it.
I think the thing that's baffling me now is that Garcia appears completely competent to run Philly's offense.
Not a slimmed down version of Philly's offense. Philly's full offense. Two deep passes to Stallworth. A deep TD pass to Brown. 15-yard crossing patterns.
That single game will be worth it even if Philly bombs the rest of the season, but if that wasn't a one game fluke (and Carolina's pass defense isn't bad), I doubt they will.
it initially looked like illegal contact on the sheppard INT, but on review he released from the press at the 5 yard mark
No, he clearly didn't. The line of scrimmage was the 7 and a half. He released the contact at the goaline. What the fuck is pass interference? Can someone tell me? Anyone?
222: pass interference: "it's not a penalty if committed on a carolina panthers wr. it's only a penalty if initiated by a carolina panthers db.."
if you count keyshawn and lito touching each others arms as the db keeping his press, then you are right, it is illegal contact or interference. I do not, and the db released his press against the body before the goaline and backed off.
That non-call at the end to seal the game ruined the entire game for me and up 'til that point, it had been one of the better MNF games of the year.
The alleged Lito Sheppard PI non-call was not even close to being as badd as the call on Correll Buckhalter for a phantom false start when one of the Panthers was clealry offsides a few series before, thus preventing the Eagles from getting a good shot at a touchdown.
What are you talking about Andrew? He false started and drew the defensive tackle offsides. I agree if Keemo had been able to stop himself before making contact they would have not called anything. But you can't induce a player offsides and then call it on the defense. Though the calls were very home-team friendly last night.
224: Keyshaun and Lito touching each others arms? That's funny. And what did you call the Tyson-Holyfield fight? A gentle ear licking?
The operative phrase is released before the goalline. Well, thats all well and good. Except we have a five-yard rule in football, not a 7 and a half yard rule, or a goal line rule. At least sometimes and depending on which team you might be.
Consistency. The refs have lost any sense of consistency this year in any of their calls.
He broke contact as they were running, the lingering contact was clearly incidental. Did the jam probably play a role in Keyshawn spazing out and jumping early? Yep. Granted that's not often how the penalty is called (or no called in this case) but it's definately the way I'd like it to be called. While the Refs are inconsistant, I'm not going to complain when the get one right.
Except we have a five-yard rule in football, not a 7 and a half yard rule, or a goal line rule.
Refs aren't going to call an illegal contact penalty for something that has no bearing on the play itself.
Johnson and Sheppard both had plenty of time and freedom to adjust to the ball. The ball was overthrown, and Sheppard was in the right position.
Though the calls were very home-team friendly last night.
Sorry? The PI on Johnson - in the end zone - for a clearly uncatchable ball, and the no-call on the one Garcia hit? Plus the clock at the end of the first half was completely ludicrous. The calls were pretty even.
The operative phrase is released before the goal line. Well, thats all well and good. Except we have a five-yard rule in football, not a 7 and a half yard rule, or a goal line rule. At least sometimes and depending on which team you might be.
"Before the goal line" could be interpreted as anywhere from the seven to the two, which would make the play legal (and it was), but you seem to want to ignore that.
As for the allegation that the home team got the call, that's just simply not true. Every other time I've seen a QB get driven into the ground like Garcia did, they've called Roughing the Passer. No call.
And what about the Pass interference call on the Eagles in the end zone to set the Panthers up for the score before the half? God, I miss when PI made a little a more sense. They cannot call PI on a ball THAT WENT 10 FEET OVER STEVE SMITH'S HEAD!!! It was a terrible call, and it looked at the time like it might completely change the game in the Panthers' favor.
What are you talking about Andrew? He false started and drew the defensive tackle offsides.
I watched the play several times in slow motion and could see no false start. The broadcast had a great view right down the line-up from a birds-eye side shot. Buckhalter only moved after the d-tackle was out of his stance and offsides and the whistle had been blown. Both teams appeared during the broadcast to think the call was bizzarre judging their facial expressions.
Were you watching the game?
Are you aware that the pass was a fade route? The pass was absolutely perfect. Not overthrown by even one inch. The play failed when Johnson was prevented from reaching position, in my opinion and in reality, by the contact 2 and a half yards beyond the five yard limit. In no possible interpretation of reality, was the contact incidental to the outcome of the play. To say so, shows an amazing ignorance of football.
How do you defend a fade pattern? You jam the receiver at the line of scrimmage and then make a play for the interception in the corner, exactly as Sheppard did. Whether you think it was contact beyond the five yard limit or not, the contact is what made the play. It is not incidental.
Really, I have read some amazingly stupid things on this board concerning penalties and football in general. If you don't understand something, ask. But if you have never played and do not understand something, than don't make ridiculous claims.
Andrew, I just watched it myself several times. Lewis leaves his feet but does not make contact. He tries to get back onsides at which point Buckhalter flinches in his stance. After that, the whistle blows and Lewis makes contact with the center. The only possible interpretation of that which comes out in the Eagles favor is that there was an unnatural move that caused Buckhalter to flinch. However, I think, not know, but think, that rule is only applied to offensive linemen flinching when a defensive lineman makes an unnatural move.
Hah. I read teh rest of your post Pat. Amazing how your interpretation of the rules are so different when the Patriots are playing. I assume you are talking about the PI called when Smith was interfered with in the endzone. The ball landed two feet from Smiths arms. Two feet. Uncatchable? Very catchable if he isn't grabbed in the endzone.
Yes the game was called very one-sided. I counted three (3) uncalled facemasks committed by the eagles. I'm not even going to discuss the holding committed on peppers on virtually every play. The PI every time a quarterback is tackled? I think the first one was bullshit, let alone the Jenkins tackle. If you can't tackle a quarterback than you aren't really playing football anymore.
The PI when Steve Smith was interfered with in the end zone should not have been called. I can't explain it any better than this: the ball goes out the back corner at a weird angle, and very high over Smith's head. Contrary to some people belief's, Steve Smith is not Spiderman, and thus could never have caught that ball.
As for your allegation that Peppers was held every play, who the heck are you? Tony Kornheiser? He was talking about the same thing, and it never happened.
If you canâ€™t tackle a quarterback than you arenâ€™t really playing football anymore.
This isn't the frickin' XFL, morganja, this is the NFL; They're going to err on the side of caution on hits on the QB, and like it or not, it's part of the game. The roughing the passer call against the Panthers was legitimate, as the Eagles' player went clearly helmet-to-helmet under under Garcia's chin. The next play, the one where Garcia came out afterwards, the Panthers proved what a dumb game they were playing by driving Garcia into the ground unnecessarily, and got away with it.
I cannot, apparently state an opinion (and neither can Pat) or when a CB's jam was released, without you deciding that in "your opinion and reality" it was released too late. Whatever. I am entitled to my opinion, you are entitled to yours, and I agree with the non-call.
I am a Patriots fan, not an Eagles fan, and but I'd like to think I can look at a football game objectively, even though I was pulling for the Iggles on this one.
They had a beautiful shot of the last play on ESPN which they were kind enough to rerun in slow motion repeatedly. No doubt this will be in Official Review tomorrow on NFLN where that same look will be used to describe why it's not pass interference at all. Johnson is released ON the 2 yard line. And it's just a beautiful play as Shepard brings his arms in under the ball. Keyshawn tries to flail around a bit and then freaks out, jumps early, leaving the ball to land softly for the touchback. Given the size advantage Johnson enjoyed, just a great play. It'll look tremendous set to music on the 2006 Eagles DVD.
By rule on the 2nd Garcia hit, the defender must make an effort to not land on the quarterback. That's already been on officail review, and the officials have been calling it with ruthless consistancy. Save for a few rare instances like, well Garcia's. Sack and land on the QB -> 15 yards, 1st down.
Sure. On the one hand, a game where the QBs maybe should be wearing dresses and bear comparison to fine china isn't the ideal of "America's Game." But on the other, being paid a couple hundred grand a week to push a sweaty, hairy, mean taped up goof around and lay a shot on the prom queen/playmate's boyfriend does seem like it's possibly deserving of a few more challenges.
Super difficult call at the end of the game, particularly given the standard and the climate for the Refs. Impressive.
Not to mention that even if it was pass interference (which it wasn't), Keyshawn should've gotten a 15, if not 30, yard penalty for yanking off his helmet and throwing it. Taking off your helmet in anger's an automatic 15 yard penalty.
I counted three (3) uncalled facemasks committed by the eagles.
There were a few by Carolina, as well - one blatantly on Greg Lewis. Note that I thought there was an uncalled facemask on the Eagles as well. I'm not crazy biased like you think I am.
The "holding on Julius Peppers" is just wrong. I'm sorry, but most football fans don't know what holding is. There weren't any crazy-bad holding non-calls that I saw, and if there were 'by the letter' non-calls vs the Panthers, there were some vs the Eagles as well.
How do you defend a fade pattern? You jam the receiver at the line of scrimmage and then make a play for the interception in the corner, exactly as Sheppard did.
How do you defend against the defense of a fade pattern? You assume that the corner's going to make a play for the ball, and throw it short, where the receiver should have easy inside position on the ball. Or you gun the ball if you've got a clear angle. Either way, you've got to see that the receiver's getting jammed and not get position and adjust to it.
Delhomme overthrew it. Or, he didn't make an adjustment. Whichever you want to say - either's true.
A fade pass is thrown instantly. There is no reading beyond what you see before the snap of the ball. The ball is hiked and then thrown. If a quarterback takes even a half second to look at the jam, then the ball will never arrive in time.
On the PI in the endzone that people are saying was ten feet over Smith's head. Look at the replay. The ball lands IN THE CORNER OF THE ENDZONE, literally two feet from Smith's diving hands.
I really wonder what people see when they watch games. You watch a game as a fan and see things one way, I understand. But look at it again in slow motion and note the facts of the play and anyone should be able to figure these things out.
For example the Smith play. Another example is the pass PI on Sheppard. Clearly Lito is pushing on Johnson at the goaline. There is no question about that whatsoever. Clearly the goal line was 7 and a half yards beyond the line of scrimmage.
As far as the roughing the passer goes.... This is the first season that they have gone overboard like this in calling these penalties. For the 30 years before this that I have watched football, those hits were regular, accepted, even sought after, plays in football. In high school and college, that is still the way that the game is played. Only this year have the rules been effectively revised to the point where pretty much every other hit on a quarterback, no matter how clean the effort, is counted as roughing the passer. The play that Delhomme was injured on? I've seen that called about half the time.
Frankly the rule is bullshit and needs to be done away with. I haven't seen any statistical evidence that the rules even protect the quarterback.
As far as leading with the helmet, how the hell can you tackle anyone without leading with your head? It is just the nature of things that when you try to tackle someone that sometimes the helmets will make contact. That's why they wear helmets. If it's a problem, put a pad on the damn helmet. Watch running backs get tackled. On practically every single play there is helmet to helmet contact.
The NFL's approach to this, and to celebrations and other things in general, shows a distinct lack of creative and analytical ability. I fear for the future of the NFL. It is the nature of organizations at the height of their power to put people in charge who are bloodless, unimaginative, visionless automons. In other words good company men like Goodell.
Look, I'm not arguing that the roughing the oasser rule should stay the way it is; it's been silly this year. I'm arguing (among other things) that on the roughing the passer call against the Panthers, the Panthers player hit Garcia in the facemask with his helmet. Call it an unjust flag if you want, I'll call in extremely dumb play. He had Garcia dead to rights and decided to do something dumb; all he had to do was NOT HIT GARCIA IN THE FACE WITH HIS HELMET and he would've had a sack.
I hear what you're saying. But I don't think people realize how difficult it is to tackle a moving target. If you come in on a rush, aim prefectly for the chest area you will still hit helmet to helmet 50% of the time. Try it some time and see. It only takes the target moving a couple of inches to throw off the contact up or down. Coming from the front especially as the quarterback steps into his throw will more often than not, cause you to miss high on your tackle. You have to keep your head up to see what the mobile little guy is doing. I just don't see it as a stupid thing as mush I see it as an inevitable consequence of tackling.
And what about padding the helmet? That seems like the obvious solution if they are truly worried about the safety of the quarerback and not just turning the game into an offensive showcase for the part-time fan.
OK, so I managed to find the clip of Sheppard's play (here, near the end).
1) Sheppard releases his press at the 2. Any remaining contact after that is clearly incidental.
2) Sheppard initiates contact just after the ball's in the air. By the book, that's pass interference. It definitely wasn't a terrible no-call, but it likely was wrong. There's absolutely no way that it had anything to do with the result of the play, though - like I said, Sheppard and Johnson both had plenty of time to adjust, but Sheppard clearly had better position. Panthers fans will clearly have a different opinion there.
As for the blah-blah about whether or not Delhomme could've adjusted his throw - fades at the goal line are thrown basically immediately. Fades that start farther back than that have to take a moment. Delhomme could've seen the beginnings of Sheppard's press and adjusted - he clearly had time. But that would've been an amazing adjustment, and Delhomme's not an amazing quarterback. So hard to fault him for that.
But I donâ€™t think people realize how difficult it is to tackle a moving target
No one ever said sacking the quarterback was supposed to be easy.
Are they making it more difficult for defensive ends? Yes. So what? Defensive ends have been getting so fast that they have to make it more difficult for them. There aren't supposed to be tons of players with double-digit sacks at the end of a year.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the inconsistency of the calls, but I think the people who are saying "just let them play" don't realize that all the new rules are saying is "speed isn't enough - now you need to have awareness, body control, and good balance in order to sack a quarterback" and I don't really see the problem with that.
Except its not skill. It becomes completely luck as to whether your sack is magically transformed into a 15 yard penalty and an automatic first down. There have been clearly roughing the passer penalties called this year and in the past that are for players trying to hurt the quarterback. I totally agree with those penalties. However, my point is that it is now a crapshoot wherein a clean hit lined up perfectly the millisecond before contact will be a personal foul a significant amount of the time.
Go back to the one step rule and leave it at that. If you don't want your quarterback hit, protect him with linemen, a TE, RB and shorter drops.
Football is suppose to be a man's sport. We once took pride that our national game was one of stength and courage. How can we respect a quarterback anymore? They aren't heroic figures that withstand the violent struggle of slamming bodies, they're more like figure skaters that prance and preen around a field in which they can't be touched.
Check out the NFL front page on ESPN. A picture perfect tackle of Jake Delhomme by Adalius Thomas. Note the helmet to helmet contact. No one knows what a good tackle is anymore.
I'm not saying that should be a penalty. I think that is a clean perfect hit on the quarterback. But often that is called a personal foul. And often it's not. Is there any logic to it? It is exactly the hit Davis put on Garcia that cost them a touchdown. It is completely at random.
I finally saw that final pass by Delhomme. It was definately pass interference. Shepherd doesn't even make contact with Johnson until they are at the goal line and the ball is in the air. The way Pat described it above as "releasing his press" is a bit misleading.
I thought Shepherd was playing close, but he actually gives Johnson a 4-5 yard cushion and then extends his arms out right as Delhomme puts the ball in the air.
Normally in these cases I would side with the defensive player because it's the WR who usually initiates contact, but in this case it was Shepherd who initiated the contact.
If I was Keyshawn I would've been pissed and tossed my helmet as well... just because Shepherd is in position doesn't mean he can ignore the ball and bump Keyshawn.
Not only that, but you can see Shepherd pushing on his jersey at the shoulder... so it could've been illegal contact, or pass interference.
I'm reading the posts about 40 or so about this one and you Eagle fans keep repeating "he released the press at the 2". HE NEVER PRESSED HIM! Sheppard played the fade back and then CONTACT IS MADE AT THE 2 which bumped Keyshawn off the route. That contact was made when the ball was in the air.
Shepherd starts at the 6. Keyshawn starts at the 10.
Keyshawn makes 4 steps.
Keyshawn is at the 5.5.
Shepherd at the 3.5.
Delhomme has the ball cocked, this Shepherd can see.
2 steps later. Ball is in the air.
Keyshawn is at the 3.5 and Shepherd is at the 2.5.
Shepherd has extended his arm out to impeded the route.
1 step later. Keyshawn is at the 2 and Shepherd is at the 1.5. Contact has yet to be release.
1 step later. Keyshawn is at the 2 and Shepherd is not at the 1 yard line.
He basically jammed Keyshawn at the 1 yard line with the ball in the air.
Watching the replay finish Shepherd's arm is extending out as they enter the end zone.
From the original angle you can see that Keyshawn's progress was impeded with the ball in the air. ESPN had enough replays, but they didn't really show how much Keyshawn's progress was impeded by the contact.
I have no doubt Keyshawn jumped to get the call as well... maybe the refs were just penalizing him for diving...
I still think it was a good no call. Just because Lito's arm is still touching Johnson at the one doesn't make it interference.
It's not the fact that his arm is still there, but from the original angle it really looks clear that he impeded Johnson's progress. ESPN showed the contact over and over, but they never showed the original angle. Shepherd did have positioning, but he played Johnson and then went to the ball. There's no denying it was a smart and savvy play.
I don't think it matters if it happened at the 5 yard mark, because the ball had left Delhomme's hand already. You can even see Johnson lose his balance after the contact.
It's a great play by Shepherd because he uses his right arm, which is shielded by his body from the officials...
I was just a little upset by the implication that Shepherd was pressing on the play and made a bump prior to the 2 yard line. He was playing them back.
If there is no bump I think he's still in position to intercept the path, but Keyshawn is in a better position to get a hand on the ball. The comment about Dawkins jumping in front of Delhomme seems correct too.
The NFL gets to show off four of their greatest quarterbacks this week. Has this fearsome foursome ever been topped? Your Scramble team remembers conference championships of yore, and take a trip back to their childhoods to try and find an answer.
See All XP | NFL XP | College XP
© Football Outsiders, Inc. // Site powered by Stein-Wein // Partner of USA TODAY Sports Digital Properties