Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

The Official Thread for Irrational Brady-Manning Arguments Part III

The original version of this thread first appeared back in July 2004 as a way to move all the Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning debate out of other discussions and into one place. We don't know why people have a tendency to lose their minds over this issue, but it really does take over every discussion thread if we let it. At one point, a discussion of the San Francisco 49ers' salary cap problems turned into a debate over Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. Every time the Colts play the Patriots, we are in danger of this site becoming all Brady-Manning all the time. Therefore, Football Outsiders has two hard and fast rules:

1) Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are tied for the title of best quarterback in football.
2) Any discussion of whether one is better than the other must go in this thread, and will be deleted from all other discussion threads.

The original thread, with a longer discussion of the whole Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning problem, is here. Note that roughly 800 comments are missing from that thread, because we had to clean out old comments to try to solve some of the server issues. We did archive them and are working on a way to bring all older comments back without filling the comment database.

Part II, posted during the 2006 regular season game between New England and Indianapolis, is here.

Disclaimer: This discussion is far, far sillier than the other discussion threads on this site, and it is meant to be. The rest of the website is not like this.

Comments

1
by First! (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:52pm

Brady is better because his receivers are worse.

2
by Francisco (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:52pm

Wow, I logged on to sarcastically ask where this thread was. I really can't take a full week of debate. Tuning out til Sunday,

3
by Francisco (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:53pm

All right, I can't help it.

Manning is better because Brady is an insufferable little bitch.

4
by Mark (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:53pm

Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning didn't seem to be on the same page during the Ravens game. Just sayin'.

5
by Tom Brady (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:55pm

I'm better because Peyton has been carried by his defense this post-season. Did you see the way I took the Patriots on my back this afternoon? It was lights out for San Diego.

6
by Chuck (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:55pm

First. As a Bostonian , guess where I stand. Brady just wins,baby. Manning has been fantastic as a passer this year, playoffs excepted. Next Sunday will go a long way to figure out this argument. If Pats win, this argument stops for a year.

7
by B (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:55pm

Well, Manning's had five picks so far this postseason, and Brady's had three. Clearly the superior player is Grossman.

8
by Lou (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:55pm

THIRD!!

Re #12
I thought that meme died out last year.

9
by Justin Zeth (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:56pm

Manning is obviously better because he's in more TV commercials.

10
by Don M (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:56pm

As a Colts fan I'd just like to say that I really believe Tom Brady is a fine QB, and that the Patriots have been a dynasty of the sort that the 49ers and Cowboys were in the past, I also think he is as Joe Dumars was to Micheal Jordan, a great player on a superior team, who isn't at all the individual talent that Peyton is. How many Pats fans honestly believe their team which is once again superior in almost every aspect wouldn't be even more superior with Manning instead of Brady?

(I May possess slightly more objectivity than a genuine Colts fan as I'm a Bungles fan first and foremost, but due to their proximity and years of exposure I'm enough of a Colts fan to root for them in all situations when they're not directly playing the Bengals, and yes it does suck to be a Bengals fan.)

11
by B (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:56pm

5: Yea, throwing a pick on 4th down, knowing Brown would force the fumble and the Patriots would recover was pure brilliance. Not many QBs can make that play.

12
by Insancipitory (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:57pm

Manning is better because he has a retarded little brother who he has to be nice to and let tag along and ruin everything.

13
by Justin Zeth (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:58pm

What's funny is that Manning's already been choking in the playoffs; it's just that his opponents choked even worse.

On the other hand, Brady played against Uncle Marty's team, which is pretty much the same thing as having a bye.

THEY BOTH SUCK.

14
by Compucrazy (not verified) :: Sun, 01/14/2007 - 11:59pm

Tom Brady is better because "he just wins games." God that chargers game was brutal to watch.

15
by Justin Zeth (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:00am

#12 has a point: If someone named Bob Brady or something came out of college, I doubt he'd be the #1 overall pick just because his big brother is TOM BRADY©.

C'mon, guys, Manning is superior in just about every phase of the game. Just admit it.

16
by Lou (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:02am

Manning is so good other teams draft his relatives #1 solely on the hope that they can be like Peyton. How many of Brady's relatives have even been drafted?

17
by Justin Zeth (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:02am

Manning has more wins than Brady since 2001. Game, set, match.

18
by Becephalus (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:03am

Hmmmm... I would think that given the differences in the league NE is far and away a better dynasty than either of those teams.

As for the Manning vs Brady, I think it is hard to say.

I know I would take Manning in an instant though. Not that my opinion means much.

19
by TH (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:03am

Just look at the rings.

20
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:03am

David "just wins" Garrard has thrown fewer interceptions than Manning or Brady this postseason. Where's the love?

As to the title of second best qb in football, however, Peyton is much better because he inspired his defense to hold their opponents to 14 points over two playoff games, while Brady's 'inspiration' has led to the Patriots giving up 37 points over their two playoff games.

21
by Count (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:07am

The "just wins" mockery is less impressive when comparing two very good quarterbacks with wildly different post season records.

22
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:07am

16: Marcia Brady went in the 9th round.

23
by Rollo (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:08am

Brady is better because his game contains a psychological edge. 4th down interception raises the Chargers hopes, only for them to be dashed because Brady placed that pick just right for his WR to backtrack and force the fumble, crushing the Chargers spirits. After that it was easy pickings.

24
by Joon (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:09am

re: 11

yeah, that 4th-down INT was so clutch. omg brady is clutch.

25
by Dan R. (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:11am

The Pats gameplan is to limp into the fourth quarter and win on a series of improbable plays.

26
by 6\'5\ (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:12am

This is fairly cut and dry. If Brady was indeed the better quarterback, he'd be in more commercials than Manning.

I'm just saying.

27
by Trogdor (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:13am

Charlie Frye has fewer INTs than either of these guys this postseason. Clearly he's a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

28
by kevinNYC (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:14am

I don't care what anyone says... Eli Manning is easily better than Brady Quinn.

29
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:14am

23
What about Manning throwing that interception to Ty Law knowing that Tynes would miss the chip shot field goal?

Plus, the goat thing downgrades Brady by at least 4 clutch points. No way is a goat clutch.

30
by RecoveringPackerFan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:16am

Manning is a better passer, but I'll take Brady for the taunting edge.

31
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:16am

25: You gotta admit, it's a flawless plan.

32
by Don M (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:17am

Looking at Rings only lead me to believe that Kurt Warner was better than Dan Marino, and that both Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer were better than Dan Fouts or Dan Marino or Kenny Anderson. Which frankly does not compute, now I'll grant Tom Brady is no Brad Johnson, but when you're personally responsible for roughly 3% of the minutes that are played by your team, I think judging the players whole career off championships is something for drunken sports bar arguments.

33
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:19am

32: Lloyd Palmerson!

34
by stamford (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:20am

BB is brilliant. Win ugly in SD so no one favors the Pats against the Colts.

This keeps the pressure on Peyton to win the big one. At home vs an undeserving 4th seed.

True to script, Peyton screws up vs BB. Brady and the Pats go off to the big show!!!

Brilliant

35
by Erithtotl (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:22am

Colts points allowed per playoff game with Manning (before this season): 23.7

Patriots Playoff D w/Brady (before this season): 16.8

As has been noted, clearly Brady inspires clutchness in his defense much better than Manning.

36
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:22am

I think judging the players whole career off championships is something for drunken sports bar arguments.

what do you think this is?

37
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:22am

Err, I mean Lord Palmerston.

38
by Nick (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:24am

This is amazing. I love the internet and FO. I thank you guys for housing this rational forum for discussion.

Watching these two guys in the playoffs this year has been difficult at times. They are both not playing their best football - whether it be missing some wide open receivers or over-thinking reads or tossing dumb interceptions. But I am insanely excited for this next matchup between these two. I would actually agree with FO's position on this, as much as it pains me as a dyed in the wool Colts fan: the two are both really great QBs, enough that any team in the league would want them. Peyton creates matchups no other QB does, except maybe Brady. Brady is cool under pressure (and 'just wins' in the postseason, HA) like no other QB except for Manning.

So in summary, please end the insanity, except for being a fan. Brady is damn good, Peyton is also damn good. As a Colts fan, I hope the supporting cast can continue their postseason dominance!

39
by Count (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:30am

As a pats fan, peyton has been very impressive this season. Some of his plays are breathtaking. I just wish he played for another team in another conference so I wouldn't dislike him so much. And those damn commercials. Eww.

40
by Randy S. (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:33am

32 - Pitt the Elder!

41
by BC Pat (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:35am

Question for the FO gurus:

Are Peyton's 5 int's precluding a collapse in the games to come?

42
by Dave Brude (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:37am

I have bet NE moneyline every playoff game since their 2nd championship even though i can't stand their uncanny ability to get outplayed for the majority of a game and sitll pull it out.

43
by BC Pat (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:38am

While I'm a diehard Patriots fan, I think Peyton Manning is an absolute joy to watch. But his stat line against KC reminded me of a game of NCAA 07, and he was not (statisically speaking, as I barely saw the game) a decisive factor against the Ravens. I understand Eli's 2005 completion percentage was a harbinger of things to come turnover-wise, but is the inverse true in this situation with his elder brother?

44
by Tom Kelso (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:38am

#'s 32, 40:

You two are so full of it. DISRAELI, you schmucks!

45
by Jesse (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:41am

#159- Geez. Talk about irrational. Your argument might be a little more convincing if you had even a few statistics to back yourslef up I might be convinced

46
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:42am

41: Manning and Brady are both getting their bad performances out of the way before the Championship game.

47
by Richard (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:43am

Obviously, Brady is better. He just wins. Like today when his team recovered five of five fumbles and you know they did it because of him.

48
by Deb from Dorchester (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:44am

Did Rivers ever have an audience with the Pope?

Peyton,you can still catch the 5:34 to the Vatican. Al Italia #54.

BTW, I don't ever recall saying "Peyton" in the Bible. WUwiddat?

49
by billsfan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:47am

23:

I agree. Brady thew that one so hard that it took the DB three or four steps to realize he couldn't hold onto it. Just long enough to establish possession. Like Peyton could do that.

50
by The Ninjalectual (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:48am

Guns don't kill people. Peyton Manning kills People.

There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of animals Tom Brady allows to live.

Peyton Manning does not sleep. He waits.

The chief export of Tom Brady is Pain.

There is no chin under Peyton Manning's Beard. There is only another football.

Tom Brady has two speeds. Walk, and Touchdown.

The leading causes of death in the United States are: 1. Heart Disease 2. Peyton Manning 3. Cancer

Tom Brady doesn’t watch the gameclock, HE decides what time it is.

Peyton Manning doesn't read books. He stares them down until he gets the information he wants.

Outer space exists because it's afraid to be on the same planet with Tom Brady.

When Peyton Manning does a pushup, he isn’t lifting himself up, he’s pushing the Earth down.

51
by Compucrazy (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:50am

Only Brady can melt the minds of NFL DB's so they forget that catching the ball means nothing on 4th down! Like Manning could pull that off HA!

52
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:53am

51: Yea, well Manning's mental powers cause opposing linebackers to deflect his interceptions.

53
by Don M (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:53am

Peyton Manning can cause the opposing teams field goal kickers to miss at a much higher rate than the league average! With the power of his enormous brain.

54
by Gordon (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:55am

Re: 25

Are you quoting Boomer during halftime? Because that's almost exactly what he said, and I laughed when he said it.

I look at this whole argument as basically a joke right now, and I'm surprised that people are still trying to argue it rationally.

But I guess Manning must be better because he threw a multiple interceptions in two games and willed his defense to the win in both. Brady's not clutch unless he does that next week, but he won't, because Manning will out-clutch-interception him. (Although that pick-turned-fumble was super clutch.)

55
by CA (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:55am

Football Outsiders has two hard and fast rules:

1) Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are tied for the title of best quarterback in football.

Sorry to get serious here, but am I the only one bothered by this rule? By every Football Outsiders metric and principal, Manning is clearly the superior player. Please, Aaron, just come out and say that! The fact that you are a Patriots fan would make the proclamation particularly powerful. And I know that you are honest and dispassionate enough to set aside your personal loyalties in favor of the truth. The irrationality in the Manning v. Brady debate comes overwhelmingly from the Brady side because they don't have much of a rational leg to stand on. And, if Manning wins the Super Bowl this year, this argument is permanently settled in his favor among all but the most strident of New England homers (like my friend from Providence who refuses to admit that Wayne Gretzky was better than Bobby Orr).

56
by Bobman (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:58am

50

Truly impressive. There is no spoon.

57
by andrew (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:02am

Brady and Manning have both been having bad games but winning this playoffs.

58
by CA (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:02am

Re: 55

"Principle," not "principal."

Normally I wouldn't bother to repost just to correct such a menial error, but this thread is going to hit 1000 posts anyway, so what the hell?

59
by Independent George (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:03am

Manning? Brady?

Pfeh. Everybody knows that it's all about the kickers.

60
by Bobman (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:04am

55 CA, you're close, but if Manning's team wins the SB and he does not get the MVP award... just you watch what the Pats fans will say. They'll manufacture some additioal manure. God forbid Freeney gets 4 sacks and the MVP, because then this season Manning's D will have "bailed him out and won it for him." Just you wait and see....

That said, I really admire the playfulness here tonight. Mostly humor, which is about the only rational commentary on the topic. Not like 3-4 years ago, when I was, er, savaged as one of the few Colt fans on a predominantly NE site. Still hurts to sit sometimes, with that Lombardi trophy up there.

Good to know my plans, formulated around week 15, have come to fruition. So far.

61
by Bobman (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:06am

55
Don't you mean what the Hell? (it is a proper place name, no? It's alternate NFL name is Detroit.)

62
by Otis Taylor '89 (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:06am

#55
You never saw Orr play, did you?

63
by young curmudgeon (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:07am

Except for those situations in which Manning is better than Brady, Brady is clearly better than Manning. And vice versa.

64
by Buck Naked (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:08am

I'm an Altoon Bombers fan and I think Tom Brady suck.

I'm an Harrisburg Community College Hornets fan and I think Peyton Manning blows chunks.

65
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:09am

60: Well, our last excuse was going to be "Manning may have won, but he didn't have to face the Patriots in the playoffs." Unfortunately, we lost that one. I think we'll have to say it was only because of Vinitieri.

66
by CA (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:13am

Re: 62

Nope. Neither did my friend from Providence.

67
by Don M (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:15am

One area of this discussion that isn't silly is "does Peyton call the game veyr well." I, along with a large number of colts fans feel that sometimes he stubornly goes with "what the other team is giving you" rather than sometimes saying "to hell with it time to go to our strength" and throw Reggie or Marvin the damn ball! He often forces it to Clark or Morehead, or runs it again and again in the face of a situation where perhaps throwing it deep might be the right call. I don't know how much input Tom Brady has in the playcalling for the Pats, but I do believe it significanly less than Manning has in calling the Colts plays.
Whether this qualifies as evidence for the greatness of Peyton Manning or just points out a significant difference in their games I don't know.
Interestingly the last two Quarterbacks I can remember who ran primarily no huddle attacks and called their own plays never won a superbowl either. (Boom Esiasion and Jim Kelly) Does that mean something?

68
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:15am

I'm gonna point this one out here. Both the Patriots and Colts were 5-5 in recovering fumbles this week. Obviously luck benefited them both. And they were able to capatilize on thier luck.

69
by sippican (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:16am

Whoah. Just whoah there. I don't care about the Branning thing. But whoah.

Wayne Gretzky better than Bobby Orr?

This aggression will not stand, man.

I don't mind you smoking the dope. That's between you and your maker and the cops and your mother, if you're in her basement. But it's drinking the bongwater like you are that I object to. Just say no.

Wayne Gretz... oh jayzuz, I can't write it again. It's too absurd. Why, Bobby Orr was better than... Tom Brady, who is almost as good as... Troy Brown... who is way better than...

70
by Nate Dunlevy (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:25am

If Tom Brady had had Mike Vanderjact kicking field goals for him, this wouldn't even be an issue (and no, I don't just mean Pittsburg last year). No one remembers Brady's terrible INT that let the Panthers back in the superbowl, because the KO went OB and Vinitieri is the baddest man alive.

71
by Count (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:26am

Brady supporters don't have a leg to stand on [i]except for three superbowl victories.[/i]

That's why both are great quarterbacks. Manning's been the best in the regular season, Brady has bigger wins, and both are obviously very good.

72
by hector (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:27am

I don't think Brady is that good. Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney would make any quarterback look like a star.

73
by Scott (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:27am

i gotta say, watching their regular season matchup, Manning was the better QB. however, there's absolutely no one i'd rather have on my team over Brady down a TD with 5 minutes left in the game. Call it luck, call it flukey, i don't care. he's 12-1 in the playoffs, and he usually makes the most of his second (and third) chances.

74
by Scott P. (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:29am

Oh please, not again. I can't take the Brady-Manning debate ever again.

I'm happy about the Colts still being alive but this whole discussion is dead to me.

75
by BCBSUCKS (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:58am

Peyton Manning is the best quarterback to ever play the game.

76
by Joe (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:06am

Tom Brady is so crafty even his interceptions get fumbled into first downs. Now that's what I call moxie.

77
by Scott de B. (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:12am

And, if Manning wins the Super Bowl this year, this argument is permanently settled in his favor among all but the most strident of New England homers

And in other news, if pigs fly, Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation will have been permanently disproved.

78
by Matt (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:27am

Oh dear lord this is sickening. Is there any way we can have them both lose? Can we have Brett Favre come in in the last two minutes and beat both teams with his magical power of clutch? We can have Derek Jeter and Robert Horry be his wide receivers to max out the intangibles! Pretty please?

79
by Hudson3010 (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:46am

Depends on what you want. You can choose a qb that can make several clutch plays in any situation in the playoffs, or you can choose manning and enjoy the regular season

80
by Biffy (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:47am

If you HAD to pick either Peyton Manning or Tom Brady to be your dad, who would you pick, and why?

81
by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:50am

Peyton Manning is better, because Tom Brady had Bill Belichick and Adam Vinateri, while Peyton had Tony Dungy and Mike Vanderjagt. Clearly the next step in Bill Polian's plan to win the Super Bowl is to kidnap and brainwash Bill Belichick into coaching the Colts. Someone warn Patriots security.

Peyton Manning is also better because his coach doesn't look like a homeless guy.

Seriously though, "Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are tied for the title of best quarterback in football" is nonsense. You're saying Drew Brees wouldn't absolutely dwarf Peyton's stats if he had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark to throw to? Even so, Drew Brees has a better postseason winning percentage than Peyton. Also, Drew Brees has yet to be shutout in the postseason when playing against a team QBed by Chad Pennington, and he has won more games against the Broncos than Tom Brady.

[Full disclaimer: Actually an Eagles fan and I don't really take any of what I just wrote seriously. Although I am curious what sort of statistics Brees would have with the Colts receiving group.]

82
by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:53am

59:

Kickers are a myth.

83
by Lou (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:55am

80
Manning, because it would make me a future #1 pick

84
by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:56am

55:

"And, if Manning wins the Super Bowl this year, this argument is permanently settled in his favor among all but the most strident of New England homers"

Trophies. Count 'em.

85
by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:57am

83:

Great answer!

86
by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:59am

Donovan McNabb and Matt Hasselbeck are better than Brady and Manning because they have more endorsement deals with Chunky Soup.

87
by MAW (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:00am

Peyton Manning has better commercials.

88
by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:02am

McNabb and Hasselbeck also threw less interceptions combined this weekend than either one of them.

89
by peachy (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:15am

Reverting to old-style stats for the moment - Grossman had a higher passer rating than either Brady or Manning this weekend, and Gaffney and Caldwell were first and second in receptions overall. Obviously an all-Gator attack would be irresistable (and Manning never beat UF, you'll recall.) Now, you may natter on about sample size, and how every QB except Garcia and Brees sucked and so forth - you may even go so far as to suggest that college performance has no bearing on a pro rivalry - but your arguments shall not sway me... because this is the thread where rationality goes to die! [cue maniacal laughter]

90
by Mannie Fresh (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:21am

It comes basically down to one thing, the number of fingers that hold the bling and ice...Brady-3 Manning-0

91
by Basilicus (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:26am

This is exactly what I wanted to see at the top of the page when I clicked on Football Outsiders tonight. This gladdens my heart and warms my cockles.

Oh, and I want Steven Gostkowski to kick the game winning 51-yard field goal as time runs out, so that people will realize that Vinatieri's "clutch" kicking was merely an extension of Brady's clutch aura, and that all Patriots kickers will carry from henceforth onwards, for all time, or until Brady sees fit to remove it.

92
by Ralph (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:28am

I would give anything to have Gostkowski miss a 20 yard FG with the game on the line.

Anything.

93
by D (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:35am

Here's a fun topic:
At what point do we start to address the fact that Carson Palmer may be better than Brady at this point. He has outplayed Brady each of the last two seasons and may well continue to do so.
(In keeping with the general tone of this thread please try and incorporate some form of the "Once all Palmer's teammates get arrested" joke into your response).

94
by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:51am

93:

Palmer's teammates turn to a life of crime because they lose faith in society when they realize they will never be as great as Carson Palmer?

95
by kal (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:51am

Manning has far more tackles than Brady and therefore is better.

96
by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:53am

Okay, I know most of them were arrested for DUI, but are they driven to drink and drunk to drive because they're confidence is destroyed by Palmer's awesome greatness?

97
by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:55am

95:

Brady puts his teammates on the offense in a better position to make tackles, while Peyton tries to get all the glory for himself.

98
by MC (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:59am

I don't think it's that meaningful to compare the quarterbacks - football is such a team sport and coaching staff play a very important role. With that said, Tom Brady certainly appears to be calmer in critical situations - some of this will certainly come from the learnings of the coaches and his teammates.

For the SD-NE game, I was astonished by some of the play calls from the SD coaches. Let's hope that the better team wins next week, and that Indy coaches don't like idiots when compared to the NE coaches.

99
by ZS (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:07am

I refer you all to my Dodgeball arguement back from Manning-Brady arguement thread II.

For those of you that missed it (re:ALL OF YOU), ctrl+f 'dodgeball' on that thread. You'll find it. Me? I'm too lazy. It's comment #195 or something like that...

Anyway, Crunchy Peanut Butter.

100
by ZS (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:08am

WAIT SHIT I MEAN SMOOTH

101
by David A. (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:08am

78 -- I'm totally with you. Best case scenario: On Friday, Manning/Brady both come down with severe cases of the flu, and they are hospitalized, but expected to recover fully. Dungy immediately announces Sorgi as his starter. Belichick refuses to announce Vinny or Cassell. At game time, Colts get the opening kickoff, and Sorgi goes three and out. Pats receive the punt. Troy Brown goes in at QB and runs the fly option for the whole game. Then, just before the 4th quarter two minute warning, Shawne Merriman parachutes onto the fifty yard line with a needle sticking out of his butt. The collective shrug and lack of reaction from the crowd, spectators and journalists alike, causes Jim Nantz to poke his own eye out, forcing CBS to chopper Gus Johnson in as a replacement for overtime... Again, this is a best case scenario...

102
by Biffy (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:11am

80: Answering my own question now that everyone has had time to think about it. (So sad.)

I believe that Manning's on-screen endorser personality would make a better dad than Brady's. Manning comes off as cocky, but self-deprecating and able to laugh at himself.

I haven't gotten the idea that Brady ever laughs at himself, even if directed to do so by a script. Maybe he should do more ads or something. Unless people don't want to see him. Which they probably don't. In spite of being a WINNER, he just has an asshole vibe (to me anyway).

Who's a better QB? Is THAT what this thread is really about? I don't think so.

And #83, yes, the future #1 pick status is not to be overlooked.

103
by ZS (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:11am

Wait, hasn't Mart-EEN Grammatica played on the same team as both Brady AND Manning this season? Let's ask him.

104
by Biffy (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:16am

101 - Could Merriman carry Barry Bonds around on his shoulders while Barry sings "Poor Poor Pitiful Me"? That would be an even better case for me.

Also, I'd like to have the game decided by Manning Vs Brady facing off in an Iron Chef duel. Battle Ham!

105
by Jake (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:20am

#54

Yep. I laughed out loud when Boomer said that.

106
by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:21am

101:

One problem with your theory; at that point Gus Johnson will have spent at least two weeks doing college basketball, so he won't have time to remove his conditioning.

"Troy Brown runs left, makes a move on his man, and puts it up for three -- AND THE FOUL!"

107
by ZS (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:26am

#101:

Brady would come down with the flu. Peyton would refuse to play after Dungy gets fired for introducing them to Rock N Roll.

108
by Jeremiah (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:54am

re: 89

So THAT'S Belichick's crafty plan to defeat Manning - filling his roster with former UF players. Clutch, and all that.

109
by David A. (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:58am

106 -- He's ballin'.

110
by Sean (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 5:04am

Brady's better.

Yeah, Eli got drafted #1 overall because he's Peyton's brother, but Brady Quinn is about to get taken #1 overall cos he's got a name that has "Brady" in it

That is the embodiment of clutchness

111
by Alex DL (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 5:08am

cant resist

112
by Alex DL (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 5:08am

genuflect +100

113
by Jeremy (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 5:26am

#72 wins.

114
by Randy S. (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 6:04am

That was a clutch post by #72 Hector. Bobman and a few others may have had more posts during in regular threads, but Hector clearly gets things done during the threads that matter.

115
by BrockVegas (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:24am

The Colts will win the Superbowl when new head coach Jon Gruden calls Tee Martin to quit his job at BK and play for Indy. Until then, they are stuck with their post season chokers.

116
by Neil (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:32am

Brady is clearly the better player.

For the season Brady Poppinga has 44 tackles, 1 pick, 1 sack and two forced fumbles, while Roy Manning couldn't even get on the starting lineup for the Bills and had precisely zero tackles, sacks, picks and forced fumbles for the season.

Though admittedly Manning does have many intagibles that aren't readily observed using conventional stats.

117
by billsfan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:34am

55:

Problem is, even if Peyton wins one, Brady won three. And Number of Super Bowl Victories is the only metric by which we measure Quarterbacks. All time rankings:

Bart Starr (3 NFL championships, 2 SB's)
Terry Bradshaw (4)
Joe Montana (4)
Tom Brady (3)
rounding out the bottom:
Trent Dilfer (1)
Jeff Hostetler (1)
Jim Kelly (0, but at least he got his team there!)
Peyton Manning (0)

118
by stan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:38am

Sean Salisbury on ESPN on the SD-NE game said that Brady's performance shows why he is the greatest clutch QB ever.

Obviously, Brady's ability to turn grown men into mindless, blithering idiots is a power never before seen.

In fact, Brady may be responsible for the fact that every pro football commentator on ESPN has been reduced to a moron. With that kind of power, it is clear that Brady's greatness transcends the sport. This isn't about mere quarterbacking. This is about mind control.

Tom Brady, the ultimate Jedi Knight, has made fiction real. Quarterback?! Don't talk about Quarterbacks! We're talking the power to bend minds to his will!

119
by Kyle W (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:44am

I think Aaron Broooks is the better quarterbak here.

120
by iapetus (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:48am

116: Presumably Dan Marino sits just below Jim Kelly, and Ryan Leaf ranks just above Peyton Manning (being tied on number of Superbowls, the tie-breaker appears to be alphabetical order of surname).20: Actually, although it hasn't made the TV coverage (the perils of a small market team) David Garrard has thrown more interceptions before breakfast than Manning and Brady have managed combined throughout the offseason. In fact, Donovin Darius' has ditched the work he used to do with a Juggs machine from his training regime - nowadays he just practices near Garrard because he prefers the feel of a real interception. Seriously, though, I understand DG is seriously working to improve that aspect of the game over the offseason - he's been putting in a lot of time working to build up a relationship with his #1 receiver, Adam Jones.

121
by Lou (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:56am

110
I concede the argument to you.

Poll on espn has the question:
Which QB would you rather have-PM or TB
Brady currently has 65% of the vote. 65. Sportsnation says this isnt even an argument

122
by Abarine (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:59am

No love for Charlie Frye in this thread?

123
by BrockVegas (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:04am

I forgot to mention that Brady has never won a game. The other team just keeps beating themselves.

124
by Pete (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:22am

Tom Brady has a huge advantage with Bellicheck and the Patriots defense. The Pats defense can actually stop the run, occasionally.
Peyton Manning has a huge advantage with a consistent Offensive Line, consistent Offensive Coaches, and consistent Wide Receivers. Offenses seem to thrive more on consistent (good) players and coaches (more team-oriented except possibly running backs), while Defenses seem more able to adapt quickly (more individual-oriented positions?).
Both Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have not been playing their best ball recently, but they are certainly among the best playing right now. I have to agree with the person who suggested ignoring trophies for determining the best (Marino and Manning vs. Kurt Warner, Brad Johnson, and Trent Dilfer).
Speaking of those QBs who managed not to lose games... is this the year for Rex Grossman, the worst of the remaining QBs, to not lose the Championship and to not lose the Super Bowl?

125
by Harris (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:23am

Brady is a better QB because, after getting drunk on seven bottles of Syrian Panther Sweat and pleasuring four Thai hookers (plus one pegboy), he saved a group of kids from a burning orphanage and still had enough energy to throw four touchdowns against the Jets later that afternoon.

126
by MCS (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:32am

Blah Blah Blah

Favre!

127
by Rick (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:33am

Sure Brady got lucky with the 4th down pick/fumble. No doubt about it. Be he also hit Reche Caldwell down the sideline for 49 yards on the same drive.

So far, Peyton Manning has laid two turds in the playoffs this year, while Brady had a great game against the Jets followed by a half-turd/half-great game against the Chargers.

I don't see much new information here. Two unrelated points: we again see people jumping on the "luck" bandwagon by noting that the Pats recovered all five of the loose balls. Guys, just how much of a fumble recovery differential are you going to see before you concede the point that recovering fumbles is not equivalent to tossing an equally weighted coin?
In any case, the first two fumbles by Chargers were ruled "incompletions" by the refs.

I think the Vinatieri/Gostkowski thread might be a bit fresher right now. Did anybody else notice that Gostkowski already has the Pats' record for longest playoff FG? I would not trust AV with a 50-yarder at this point in his career. (Yeah, he hit one against the Ravens, but he hadn't hit one that long since 2002 before then.)

128
by sippican (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:46am

The other day on FO, someone described the Colts receivers as "good." A few comments up I read that they're "consistent."

This is why I come here. For the comedy.

129
by Podpeople (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:47am

Peyton Manning is better because I don't want to punch him in the face. Seriously though, everytime I see tom Brady make that grin I lose all ability to think rationally and de evolve into "punch quaterback in the face" mode.

130
by mikeabbott (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:52am

Brady is better because he inspires more jealousy. Maybe Manning will introduce Patriot fans to that emotion next Sunday but I doubt it.

131
by Podpeople (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:04am

Peyton is better because he saves all his interceptions for the post season, which is when they really count.

132
by Kami (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:29am

Those of you who are saying or thinking 'Enough of this shiat, can't they both lose?' should be rooting for Manning. Brady has already won, the only way this ends is if Manning wins one.
Or I suppose either one could have a career-ending injury or something. Maybe just root for that.
I'm rooting for Manning.

133
by rodriguez (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:33am

Brady throws a pass that's hard to both intercept *and* run with. Troy Brown remembered this so the game-changing fumble was easy pickings (If Brown makes one big play next weekend Peter King will start the misguided HOF talk). Most QBs, they just get picked there and the game essentially ends (and TMQ scribbles down "Game Over" in his notebook).

134
by yourmom (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:37am

#126
Actually, before the Ravens game the last time AV hit a 50 yarder was the previous week against KC.

Also, the Colts had the same luck in recovering fumbles - so we can throw that point out.

I have read that FO says recovering fumbles is pure luck, but I feel like there has to be some difference based on where the fumbles happen. I have a feeling that a QB sack/fumble is more often recovered by the D. Or a fumble in the secondary is more often recovered by the D. Those are unfounded guesses though. Did the study of fumbles go into that much detail or just say that "overall fumbles are luck"?

135
by im_no_playa (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:37am

The only logical way to decide this is for PM and TB to play one-on-one football like we all did with our best friend back in our younger days. And PM would be clearly better because his 1" height advantage would swat any passes (aka, lobs) that TB would throw to himself and PM's hockey mentality (how else do you explain that nose? many years of being a hockey goon, obviously) would punish any potential TB runs.

Clearly, PM is better.

I miss the innocence of my youth.

136
by yourmom (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:41am

To compensate for my rational thoughts above . . .

Manning is losing on purpose because he wants to go out on top. If he were to win SBs now, he would have to retire before setting all passing records known to man. He will win his SBs right before retiring in an Elway-esque tour of glory.

137
by OMO (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:45am

sippican semi-indirect Colts fans are idiots post...check.

Colts fans are whiners post...check.

Cue Bill Polian and Tony Dungy will petition the NFL to change a rule in their favor prior to the AFCC game...in 3, 2, 1...

138
by Kami (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:47am

133- Yes, there is difference on where the fumbles happen, yes they did study that.

The main point of 'fumble recoveries are luck' isn't so much that, but that it's not predictive of future success so it's kinda worthless as a statistic. A team that recovers 75% of the fumbles one game, whether skill was involved or otherwise, is probably going to be closer to 50% in any future game than 75% again.

139
by bsr (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:48am

Brady has the better stats:

Career stats:
Peyton- G:11 C:238 A:390 Pct:61% Yrds:2899 TD:16 Int:13

Brady- G:13 C:274 A:452 Pct:61% Yrds:2985 TD:19 Inc:8

Clearly Brady is better especially when you consider superbowls.

140
by Sheldon (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:50am

Brady is tooooo pretty to be a good QB.

Manning's homely looks help's him focus on excellence.

141
by yourmom (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:55am

#139
I think that gives the advantage to Brady. He just falls out of bed dead sexy. Manning has to spend hours to apply fake hair, moustache, and neck for his commercials. All this time could be dedicated to studying game film.

142
by rex grossman (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:56am

And yay though I looked forth upon a fearsome Seahawks pass rush did I thusly fling the ball at a great velocity until it was delivered into the grace of Bernard Berrian, thus crushing our foes and driving them mercilessly before us...hahaha guys, just kidding. Ol' Rex here. I saw you gusy were having a "best QB" debate. Puh-leeze. I just wanted to check in, you know, as proud owner of the 3rd best passing efficiency rating EVER in the SEC. That's right, the best conference in college football. Peyton and Brady might throw crucial interceptions in the playoffs, but what about me? I consistently threw key interceptions and fumbled the ball away all season. Hello, 34 passing yards against the Vikings? A 0.0 passer rating against the Pack at home to end the season (actually I tanked that one so my hero Old Man Farve could haul his creaky bones out as a winner)? Could any other QB have embarrassed himself so thoroughly by accounting for 6 turnovers against the Cardinals on national TV? I think not. So you guys can argue about statistics and Super Bowls all you want, but you know you're just ignoring what really matters; Florida Gators, national champions of NCAA Division I-A college football. Michigan? Uh, they got devoured by USC even though they had some scrub at QB while I was busy DESTROYING Matt Leinart on Monday Night Football. Tennessee? They got beat by freaking Penn State with 386 year old Joe Paterno in the Outback Bowl. It's too bad Peyton wasn't there to choke at a crucial moment; I bet he'd piss his pants if he had to go up against me and the Ol' Ball Coach.

That's right, Rex Grossman. Best. QB. EVER. Deal with it and don't come crying to me after I DESTROY you.

143
by Grouchy Bills Fan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:16pm

if you had both Manning and Brady on your roster, which one would you trade? Would you trade them both for ROBO-PUNTER?

144
by MCS (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:25pm

Forgive me for trying to introduce a little rationality to the debate.

Just a little more fuel for the debate.

M=Manning
B=Brady

2006 DPAR, DVOA
M: 175 rank 1, 58% rank 1
B: 75.9 rank 6, 19.6% rank 11

2005 DPAR, DVOA
M: 112.5 rank 1, 41.7% rank 1
B: 104 rank 3, 30.9% rank 4

2004 DPAR, DVOA
M: 170.1 rank 1, 62.8% rank 1
B: 113.4 rank 3, 41.6% rank 2

2003 DPAR, DVOA
M: 125.7 rank 1, 35.6% rank 2
B: 44.2 rank 10, 5.6% rank 10

2002 DPAR, DVOA
M: 80.6 rank 4, 17% rank 11
B: 54.2 rank 14, 6.8% rank 19

2001 DPAR, DVOA
M: 55.4 rank 6, 9% rank 6
B: 24.8 rank 15, -0.4% rank 17

2000 DPAR, DVOA
M: 125 rank 1, 36.8% rank 3
B: N/A, N/A

145
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:29pm

Re: 127

The real comedy is seeing Colts fans put on airs of sophisticated objectivity and then watch them pull all the same crap they like to bash those reprobate Pats yahoo homers for (downplay the skills of other people on the team, give Manning the credit when they win while blaming the rest of the team when they lose, attributing magic powers to Manning, etc.)

Comedy gold, I tell ya...

146
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:30pm

Re: #136

Whiny OMO post complaining about whiny Pats fans...check!

:)

147
by Podpeople (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:30pm

Ok isn't the real question whether jeff garcia should replace donovan mcnabb???? or whether rex grossman should replace rex grossman? Or whether or not that homeless guy o new englands sidelines will ever stop wining? duh.

148
by Peter (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:32pm

Here's a question, without the idiotic officiating in the tuck rule game and/or the Pats d-backs openly cheating in the AFC title game, is there even a debate between Manning/Brady? I'm not trying to take back-to-back 17-2 seasons away from him, but at what point do you have to factor in the unbelievable breaks the Pats have had during their run?

149
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:33pm

One more...

Colts fans complaining about this morning's MMQB... check coming :)

(Actually, I don't blame you. PK is way over the top this morning).

150
by Basilicus (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:39pm

I think Tom Brady, upon retirement, should resurrect the Bull Moose party and run for president. In the landslide election that follows, he should install Scott Pioli as Secretary of State, and Rodney Harrison as Secretary of Defense. Bill Belichick for VP, Tedy Bruschi as Secretary of Health and Human Services, and Adam Vinatieri as Secretary and Steven Gostkowski as under-secretary Emergency Management.

Peyton Manning will be Secretary of Pooping Himself.

Out of spite, Manning will defect to Communist China, where he proceeds to lead them far in the war against American oppression, until his navy is intercepted by Admiral Ty Law on the flagship USS Steve Grogan. Communist China will crumble, surrendering to invading forces quickly. Manning will be captured, blaming this on the inability of his front line to protect him. Brady, being a godly sort, will forgive Manning his past sins, and re-install him as Secretary of Pooping Himself, wherein Manning shall day-in, day-out do the best job of pooping himself that this country has ever seen.

151
by Malene, cph (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:42pm

re 143 - not to be too serious here, but DVOA and DPAR doesn't measure who's the better QB, B or M. It measures who has the better passing attack, IND or NE.

I don't think even the most ridiculous NE fan would dispute that IND has had the better passing attack all the years Manning and Harrison's been together.

The usual argument seems to be more like, "if Brady and Manning had identical teams, who would be best".

152
by Podpeople (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:43pm

Sportscenter just explained why Brady sucked so hard for 3 1/2 quarters. Apparently Tom Brady wins games by being put in awful situations and being Mr Super clutch.

153
by DGL (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:44pm

#2,159: Are you kidding? Brady's eyeblack is way better than Manning's fake mustache.

154
by Nathan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:47pm

If Brady doesn't feel like he's considered the best QB, he openly tanks the first 3 quarters so that he can continue being Mr Super clutch.

155
by DaveO (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:47pm

re: 144:

The real comedy is seeing Pats fans not even bothering to put on airs of sophisticated objectivity ('cause honestly, what's the point) and crapping all over thier receiver corps because to admit that these guys are actually pretty good interferes with thier infantile "All Pats success must be laid reverently at the feet of Brady" world-view...

156
by billsfan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:48pm

150:

Tie, because Brady and Manning would then be the same person.

157
by yourmom (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:48pm

Enough of all this worthless debate. Lets get down to what really matters. Whenever there are men and group showers, there is only question. Who would you rather shower with?

I think it has to be Manning. Brady's sexiness would cause self-esteem problems and possibly turn me on.

Also, as Family Guy has shown, Brady doesn't want you to jump into a private shower with him. Given that Mannning is such a team player, I think he'd be cool with it.

158
by BD (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:54pm

The level of discourse on this thread is dangerously high. Brady clearly inspires his teammates to play better. Minus Brady the Patriots would be blown out by the Florida Gators (unless Brady was injured and on the sidelines in crutches in which case he would continue to be an inspiration).

Manning, on the other hand, is too busy filming commercials to inspire his teammates. He is good at throwing the ball and that is all.

Sunday, finally, the debate should be settled for good. Manning will try but once again be found wanting as a human being.

159
by Sergio (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:54pm

Whew! Checked it yesterday and it was only up to 15 or so posts. Unbelievable...

BTW, yay! to WordPress errors on other threads. I blaim you, and only you.

160
by sippican (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 12:55pm

Yes! OMO gets it. Me continually pointing out that Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne are the two finest wide receivers in the league, and Marvin Harrison might be the finest receiver that ever lived, makes me a ... wait for it... Pats homer!

Of course, I went and doubled down on my Pats homerism by pointing out two weeks ago that Colts fans had lost their minds here by calling for Dungy's head, because they can't seem to understand that when Reggie Wayne gets Larry Tripplet's and David Thornton's money, and you replace them with... Joseph Addai! ... you better hope Tony Dungy is your coach.

As usual, your god screwed the pooch when it counted, and Tony Dungy saved his ass with a scout team defense.

I think you're going to need more than five field goals next week. Just a thought.

161
by DaveO (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:06pm

157:

The level of discourse on this thread is dangerously high

Thanks for rectifying this, BD.

162
by DaveO (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:07pm

161:

I think we're going to get more than five field goals next week. Just a thought.

163
by Scott de B. (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:11pm

I think we’re going to get more than five field goals next week. Just a thought.

Six field goals, then?

164
by pcs (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:15pm

It's a trick question: They don't bury survivors!

165
by Yaxley (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:15pm

Antwaan Randle El is a better QB than either Manning or Brady because he has a higher passer rating in the Super Bowl.

166
by pcs (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:20pm

Orange you glad I didn't say banana?

The doctor was his mother!

Neither! The capital of Kentucky is Frankfort!

167
by sippican (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:27pm

I just went to the Indy Star homepage. I figured they'd have a picture of the greatest QB, in their humble opinion, right on the front page.

See for yourself.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/frontpage

168
by turbohappy (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:28pm

Re: 127

Vinatieri has hit 50+ yard field goals 2 weeks in a row now.

169
by BD (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:28pm

161:

Any time, bro.

Although 165's Antwan Randle El argument is compelling. I may have to reconsider this debate more closely.

170
by MCS (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 1:49pm

I think we all can agree that WordPress sux.

171
by Kyle W (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:02pm

Tom Brady has 8 letters in his name, Peyton Manning has 13 letters in his name, therefore Manning is exactly 1 and 5/8ths times better than Brady.

Later on Joe Buck will explain whether Manning is more or less than 1 and a half times as good as Brady.

172
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:12pm

I think Kyle wins the thread (for now).

173
by billsfan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:15pm

157:

It doesn't matter who you would rather shower with. Jeff Garcia would rather shower with you.

174
by im_no_playa (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:18pm

Well, Archie determined Peyton's fate from day one. Note that Peyton has the classic 2-syllable first and last name, which properly fits the most popular cheer format:

blah-blah blah-blah, clap, clap, clap-clap-calp.

Thus:

Pey-ton Man-ning, clap, clap, clap-clap-clap

Can't do that with Tom Brady -- don't even try to stretch "Tom" into 2 syllables.

So obviously Brady's parents didn't want him to succeed. Peyton being better than Tom is completely the responsibility of their respective parents.

175
by DaveO (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:30pm

167:

Uh, OK...

176
by Randy S. (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:36pm

143 - I wouldn't trade both for ROBO-PUNTER. Just one. But deciding which one to trade is really difficult.

I hate Tom Brady and would love to see him rot on the sidelines while punts fly everywhere, but he'll probably somehow get all the glory and another SNL spot or something. Besides, he really doesn't need any more SB wins. Jerk. God I hate him.

Meanwhile, I'd rather watch Manning pick apart a defense than see him sit on the sidelines, and I like the guy and want him to succeed. But we all know you can't beat ROBO-PUNTER.

Actually, I think I'd keep both. Manning as starting QB to get his SB, and Brady as the holder.

177
by Old Whippersnapper (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 2:59pm

The debate has changed -- now it's more like, who's looked crappier, Manning or Brady?

Manning did nothing Saturday, but at least he didn't kill his team. Brady got bailed out by Troy Brown, otherwise he'd be playing golf. Brady had a -- drumroll -- 8.9 rating going well into the game.

8.9 rating.

At least they're not Carson Palmer, though, the king of overrated chokers.

178
by sippican (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:11pm

From the Indianapolis Star article:

Because Brady, who was harassed all day by San Diego's defense, is still the greatest big-game, big-moment quarterback since Joe Montana.

We "Pats homers" cannot rest, until we convince the Indianapolis Colts fans and media that Tom Brady really isn't all that good.

But you guys won't listen. You guys should go down to the paper's office in a mob with pitchforks and torches and make that guy stop writing stuff like that.

You're in Indiana. You've got plenty of pitchforks and torches don't you?

179
by buckkalu (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:26pm

YOu Colt's fans are so out to lunch. Manning's nickname insn't "Mr. October" for nothing. Let's look at the stat's since thats all you like to talk about. In the playoff's including this weekend:

Mr. October
238/390 for 2899 YDS, 16 TD 13 INT 83.70 Rating and Won 5 & Lost 6 - 0 SB Wins

Brady

274/452 for 2985 YDS 19 TD 8 INT 86.75 Rating and Won 12 & Lost 1 - 3 SB Wins

Yes the stats clearly indicate Manning's "superiority". Oh and remember, in the playoffs you play the BEST teams.

180
by buckaluck (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:53pm

Manning/Brady. Brady/Manning. They're both so damn good its absurd. In the past Brady has always had the better defense supporting him. Plus an ice-in-the-veins placekicker to win games in the end. Manning has needed to be superhuman win the big ones and that's hard to do every week.
So look at it this way. Put either one of these guys on San Diego, Seattle, or Baltimore and they win this weekend. Put either on Chicago and the game's a laugher.

Rant on!!!!

181
by DaveO (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:53pm

We “Pats homers� cannot rest, until we convince the Indianapolis Colts fans and media that Tom Brady really isn’t all that good.

I'd say Brady made a pretty good argument for that all by himself with the way he played on Sunday...

182
by Kevin (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:54pm

Clearly everyone is looking at this wrong.

We can determine, once and for all, who is better by looking at it in political terms.

Peyton Manning is a married, hard working highly paid brand-name darling of the media who often performs at the height of his profession, with a specialty for bringing a vast array of options to the table each and every time he takes a snap and is often considered an offensive coordinator on the feild.

Tom Brady is an unmarried, hard working highly paid brand-name lesser darling of the media who often performs at the height of his profession, with a specialty for almost always making the plays needed to win and doing well in the playoffs.

As I've said this debate can be solved politically. In any political situation Manning, with his wife in tow to create the atmosphere of strong family values clearly wins out. Brady is recently splitsville with his model girlfriend, could be a model in his own right and has recently appealed to the common man by admitting that he does what the average guy does. But apart from good looks how does that bring in the female vote?

Brady did a series of commericals for a credit card company where he allowed his teammates and co-workers to hit on the model-actress portraying his, now ex-, model girlfriend. Hardly the good image of the family focused male that works in political circles.

On the other hand Manning in his credit card commercials is often seen cheering on the sterling work of the often unheralded minimum-wage folk. Don't forget the fact that he's a master of disguse and has a laser-rocket arm! All those play fantastically in the arena of public opinion.

So say it loud and say it proud! A Vote for Manning this Jan 21st is a Vote for Family and Support of the Common Man. A Vote for Brady is a Vote for Orange County Hippys who Date Models but Try to Act Like They're Like You (also commie pinko loving something somethings)

183
by The MOOSE (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 3:55pm

From the Indianapolis Star front page:

Familiar foe - Colts to face Brady, Patriots for AFC crown.

Reading between the lines you get...

Familiar foe - Colts to face Brady, Patriots for AFC crown.

Obviously Brady is better if the Indiapolis Star conceeds that Brady and the Pats own the AFC.

184
by Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:25pm

We are better than Peyton Manning. Just look at the rings.

Mark Rypien, Jim McMahon, Jeff Hostetler, Phil Simms, Kurt Warner, and Joe Theismann agree with us that we are better than Manning. Just look at the rings.

185
by DavidH (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 4:27pm

100:
That was the first comment on this whole thread that cracked me up. I really don't understand WHY I thought it was so funny, but I did.

186
by Matt (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 5:32pm

If Manning wins this time, he will clearly be the best QB -- except to Pats' fans . . . or anyone else who can remember the past seven years.

If Brady wins this time, everyone will complain about how he still gets no respect -- especially Pats' fans.

I think best case scenario for everyone is that Brady clearly outplays Manning and Colts still win, just so the Brady supporters are left relying on Tom's superior statistical performance while the Peyton supporters can point to the scoreboard and say that winning counts for more.

187
by ZS (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 5:45pm

#171: Joe Buck's opinion is worthless in these matters. Seven letters? Do the Bucks even care about their children?

Anyway, resurrection of Dodgeball Arguement, v2.0 (From TB-PM II):

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/10/29/open-discussion/4466/#commen...

Let’s say the city of Indianapolis declared war on the entirety of New England, and all forces are diminished except Tom Brady for New England and Peyton Manning for Indianapolis. By a little known American law, they each get to choose any five people in a game of winner-take-all Dodgeball. The winner becomes supreme emperor of the entire triangle of Indy, Boston, and the northernmost tip of Maine. They must both pick another QB, a rockstar, an ESPN celebrity, an NFL center named Jeff, and one other person.

Peyton selects Eli, Magnus von Magnusson or whatever that world’s-strongest-man guy’s name is, Jeff Saturday, the mustached gent from the phone commercials (but not without careful consideration towards Johnny, who everyone agrees has the best arm in the neighborhood), and Slash from Velvet Revolver.

Brady selects Jeff Hartings, Drew Brees, the most recent Lumberjack Games champ, Chris Cornell from Audioslave, and, after unsuccessfully trying to pick Robo-Punter (ROBO PUNTER BOWS TO NONE. And he's partial to Favre.), goes with Ugly Betty.

The game is 5-on-5, three balls. The rosters:

Team Manning: E. Manning on far right, Slash on right-center, Magnus on center, Saturday on left-center, Peyton on far left, mustached fellow sitting.

Team Brady: Hartings on far right, Brees on right-center, Brady on center, Ugly Betty on left-center, Lumberjack Guy on far left, Cornell sitting.

Eli, Brady, and Peyton get the balls first, but Eli throws too soon and hit Brady while in the neutral zone, so he’s out. Peyton throws a long ball and hits the Lumberjack and then richochets off of him and hits Brady, so they’re both out.

With all three balls on the Brady team, Hartings, Brees, and Betty all grab a ball. Hartings’ ball heads for Slash, but it bounce off his guitar (Why can't Slash have a guitar? He's Slash) and back into the hands of Hartings. Brees’ ball hits Magnus, so Magnus is out. Betty chucks hers at Jeff Saturday, who, with a career passer rating of 38.6, catches it, bringing Eli back in and putting Betty out.

So it’s Jeff Hartings (with a ball) and Drew Brees versus Slash, Saturday, and the Mannings with a ball for each Manning. Jeff Hartings tries his luck again at Slash, and this time hits the top hat. Slash is irritated, but called out by Walt F**king Coleman. 3-2.

Saturday, Peyton and Eli now have all the balls, and all go directly for Brees. Hartings, realizing who has the arm on their team, jumps in front of Brees, sacrificing himself for the sake of the team. Brees now has all three of the balls, but it’s 3 to 1. Summoning the insane crazy power of the city of New Orleans who REALLY NEED THIS, Brees chucks it at Saturday’s shoulder, hitting him, and it bounces into the air. Brees catches it, and Chris Cornell is in.

Brees and Cornell have all three balls, and throw two at the brothers Manning. Eli gets clonked by Cornell, but Peyton catches Brees’ throw, taking him out.
Brady in, Brees and Eli out. It’s Saturday-Peyton vs. Brady-Cornell. Just for dramatic tension’s sake, Cornell and Saturday mutually agree to remove each other.

Brady-Manning, just as you probably predicted at the beginning of reading this. They both go back, throw, and...

Brady’s down! Brady’s been hit! Team Peyton wins!

But wait.

Just as the referee goes to raise the arm of Peyton, a phone drops out. Holy shit. It’s the mustache guy. Team Peyton is disqualified for misrepresenation on the roster!

TEAM BRADY WINS! TEAM BRADY WINS! Tom Brady is your king, Indianapolis! Hail Emperor Brady!

188
by Not saying (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 5:55pm

I said it before, and I'll probably say it again, but Brady is clearly the better quarterback because he has played with a shoulder injury for about 100 straight games now and is still lighting up the field.

When was the last time Manning was hurt? That jaw thing was like 5 years ago.

189
by Ryan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 6:04pm

First of all, NE is not a Dynasty. In their off year what did they do? Get shut out of the playoffs. To compare them to the 90s Cowboys is a Joke because the Cowboys dominated in those super bowls(read: they didn't win every game by 3 or less) and on top of that they had different head coaches AND lost to the eventual Steve Young led 49ers in the NFC Championship. I should also mention I'm a Bills fan and it pains me terribly to praise Dallas. Now where were we?

Manning could be put on any team in the league and have an immediate impact. Say all you want about Brady and no receivers but you can also look at McNabb who doesn't have a stellar core but was throwing MVP numbers while his team caught bad breaks until his leg went. What it really comes down to is that Brady may be one of the best game managers of all time. Manning is one of the best QUARTERBACKS of all time. He can hit a receiver in double to triple coverage anywhere on the field if he has to. Brady would rather run out of bounds. The only reason Brady has won 3 Super Bowls is because of the system and his surrounding teammates buying into it. Put him on any .500 AFC (.400 for and NFC team)team and I'm sorry, but they are not going to make a playoff run

If I wanted a QB to win the game for me I'd pick Manning. If I wanted a QB to hold my lead and not do anything stupid I'd have Brady. They each have their strengths but Manning is hands down the better overall QB.

190
by Kyle W (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 6:08pm

Rookie year passsing yardage:
Brady 6 yrds
Manning 3739 yrds

3739 points to Manning
6 points to Brady

Career receiving yardage:
Brady 23
Manning -2

3737 points to Manning
29 to Brady

Superbowls:
Brady 3
Manning 0

3737 to Manning
32 to Brady

Round Drafted
Brady 6
Manning 1

3738 to Manning
38 to Brady

2002 DPAR
Brady 54.2
Manning 80.6

3818.6 to Manning
92.2 to Brady

Bonus Clutch playoff abiliity
Brady 11.0054054
Manning 0

Total
Manning 3818.6
Brady 103.2054054

Thus under my new quarterback rating system I find Peyton Manning to be approximately 37 times the quarterback that Tom Brady is.

191
by Stephen Young (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 6:22pm

PEYTON MANNING IS BETTER THAN TOM BRADY. TOM BRADY IS AN EXCELLENT QUARTERBACK, NUMBER 2 EASILY AND NOT FAR FROM NUMBER 1. BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS PEYTON MANNING PUTS UP WEEK IN, WEEK OUT, THERE IS NO COMPARISON.

PEYTON MANNING HAS 7 4,000 YARD SEASONS, WHILE BRADY HAS 1.

PEYTON MANNING HOLDS THE RECORD FOR MOST TOUCHDOWN PASSES IN THE SEASON, QUARTERBACK RATING, AND A BUNCH MORE QB RECORDS.

TOM BRADY'S TEAM AND COACH, IS BETTER IN THE POSTSEASON THAT PEYTONS TEAM AND COACH. WHY DOES EVERYONE ALWAYS BLAME PEYTON MANNING FOR THE COLTS FAILURES IN THE POSTSEASON.

SO TOM BRADY IS MORE CLUTCH, BIG DEAL. I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW, THEY PEYTON MANNING HAS DIRECTED THE COLTS TO WINS OVER NEW ENGLAND, DENVER, CINCINATTI, NEW YORK GIANTS, AND THE NEW YORK JETS THIS SEASON. THAT WIN OVER NEW ENGLAND, WAS AT NEW ENGLAND AND TOM BRADY WASNT INJURED. THIS NEXT PLAYOFF GAME WILL BE AT INDY.

PEYTON MANNING IS RATED 99 IN MADDEN, TOM BRADY IS RATED 98.

PEYTON MANNING IS ALWAYS BLAMED WHEN THE COLTS LOSE IN THE POSTSEASON. HE NEVER POINTS THE FINGER AT ANYONE. HE DID LAST SEASON POINT AT THE OFFENSIVE LINE, BUT THEY WERE THE REASON THE COLTS LOST. IF THE COLTS DEFENSE GAVE UP 40 POINTS, AND MANNING HAD ONE LAST DRIVE TO SCORE 41 BUT CAME UP SHORT, EVERYONE WOULD BLAME HIM, AND NOT THE COLTS DEFENSE. LAST SEASON IN THE PLAYOFFS, PEYTON MANNING DIRECTED THE COLTS ON A POTENTIAL GAME TYING DRIVE OVER THE STEELERS. BUT VANDERJACKEDUP MISSED THE FIELD GOAL. NOW WAS PEYTON MANNING NOT CLUTCH, OR WAS VANDERJACKEDUP NOT CLUTCH.

IF TOM BRADY AND PEYTON MANNING SWITCHED TEAMS NEXT SEASON, YOU WILL FIND THAT NOT MUCH WILL HAVE CHANGED. RECHE CALDWELL AND JABAR GAFFNEY WILL HAVE 100 RECEPTIONS, 1400 YARDS, AND 12 TDS EACH. MARVIN HARRISON, REGGIE WAYNE, DALLAS CLARK, BEN UTECHT, JOSEPH ADDAI, DOMINIC RHODES, BRANDON STOKLEY, AND RICKY PROEHL WILL ALL HAVE 40 RECEPTIONS OR SO, WITH 2-3 TDS, AND ABOUT 300 YARDS RECEIVING. SO BRADY WILL GET HIS USUAL 3500 YARDS, AND PEYTON WILL GET HIS USUAL 4000 YARDS.

TOM BRADY IS "CLUTCH" IN THE POSTSEASON, BUT YOU HAVE TO GIVE CREDIT TO BILL BELICHICK. HE IS A GENIUS. HE MAKES A GAME BREAKING GAME PLAN EVERY WEEK TO BEAT THE OTHER TEAM. ITS NOT ALWAYS TO ATTACK THEIR WEAKNESS, OR STIFLE THE OTHER TEAM'S NUMBER 1 PLAYER, HE FINDS CREATIVE WAYS TO WIN, AND TOM BRADY JUST CARRIES OUT THE GAME PLAN. IM SURE PEYTON MANNING COULD DO THE SAME, IF HE WAS PLAYING WITH A GENIUS COACH LIKE BELICHICK.

REMEBER, PEYTON MANNING IS RATED 99 IN MADDEN, AND TOM BRADY IS RATED 98.

192
by sippican (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 6:29pm

In their off year what did they do? Get shut out of the playoffs.

9-7, three way tie for 1st in a division where the worst team went 8-8. Three way tiebreaker kept them out of playoffs.

Indy? 10-7 in a division with Houston and the Jags. Rugged.

193
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 6:48pm

191
Ow, my eyes. Don't ruin this great thread by making us go blind.

194
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 6:52pm

Just in case-and I know this is a huge mental strain for some people-let's hypothesize that the Colts win the Super Bowl this year. Ok, I know that it is difficult. But if that happens, can we switch this argument to Roethlisberger and Palmer?

195
by Old Whippersnapper (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 6:56pm

Facts:

1. Only New England fans use the word "dynasty" to describe the Patriots.

2. Only New England fans compare Tom Brady to Joe Montana -- or have the nerve to actually suggest he's better.

3. Carson Palmer is the best small-game quarterback in the game today.

196
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 7:00pm

Re: #195

I didn't know that Indianapolis Star sports columnist Bob Kravitz was a New England fan.

You learn something new every day...

197
by Matt F. (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 7:16pm

Tom Brady's the best quarterback in football right now. When Peyton Manning wins three superbowls we can have a discussion about who was better. Until then...

198
by DaveO (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 7:18pm

197: Just out of curiosity - do you think that Tom Brady won the game on Sunday?

199
by DaveO (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 7:21pm

196:

This might be a little confusing to a Pats homer, but I'll try to explain.

Occasionally allowing that another team/team's player is actually pretty good is *not* the same as being a fan of that team, nor is it turning your back on the home team. It's actually allowed.

I know, I know, it sounds crazy...

200
by Podpeople (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 7:25pm

Yes madden 2007 is the ultimate authority on this. Especially since DBs in that game can contort in completely inhuman ways. Damn you secondary, I can never get that all-madden 7 point bonus in the QB challenge!!!!

Also, tom brady's voice in that gmae is way annoying, therefore Manning is better.

201
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 7:30pm

Re: #199

I realize reading comprehension is apparently a hard skill for some Indy apologists to acquire, so bear with me. Grit your teeth, concentrate, and read #195. Then pull out a dictionary (an elementary school one is fine if that's all you have) and look up the word "only". It's only four letters long, so it shouldn't take you much time. Then you can (slowly -- don't want to miss anything) read #195 again and then #196 and get back to us.

202
by Matt (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 7:33pm

As I see it, here are the two best arguments thus far:

PEYTON MANNING IS ALWAYS BLAMED WHEN THE COLTS LOSE IN THE POSTSEASON. HE NEVER POINTS THE FINGER AT ANYONE. HE DID LAST SEASON POINT AT THE OFFENSIVE LINE, BUT THEY WERE THE REASON THE COLTS LOST.

vs.

Brady is clearly the better quarterback because he has played with a shoulder injury for about 100 straight games now and is still lighting up the field.

If those two arguments can be overcome with logic, I must confess I cannot see how it will be done.

203
by Mike B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 7:39pm

MANNING'S A PUNTANG THIS IS GONNA BE A BLOWOUT! THE PATRIOTS ARE GONNA RUIN EVERY CHANCE MANNING EVER HAS AT A SB RING, AND THEY'RE GONNA BEAT THE SAINTS TOO BECAUSE THEY'RE HEARTLESS COMPETITORS WHO DON'T THINK ABOUT ANYTHING BUT WINNING. YES!

204
by Bobman (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 7:42pm

189
Ryan, sorry to hit one of my own here, but are you saying put Brady on a typical 8-8 team and they don't go 9-7 or 10-6 and make the playoffs?

I think Manning is better, but I think your argument is weak there.

Now if it's Cincy or another 8-8 ish team with a very good QB, well I am not sure how much better either PM or TB makes them, but they will make that team better. Playoffs? Maybe.

188, So you're saying Brady is fragile...? That's not very god-like. And Manning's jaw was broken in mid-game by a helmet-to-chin shot and he missed one snap (that stat aided by a Rypien INT and halftime).

Actually, PM has a monster brace on one knee from when MINN nearly tore off his lower leg in a preseason game a few years back. It is never discussed, but I assume the joint is compromised or he wouldn't wear it. If the argument is he wears it preventively, well, why only one brace? Does he not like his other knee as much?

205
by BD (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 7:43pm

Super Bowl Rings:

Brady: 3
Manning: 0

Even if by some miraculous fluke the Colts win it all this year, Manning will still be 33% of Brady.

To prove my rating system:
Quarterbacks with 3+ rings: Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Terry Bradshaw (all HOF)

Quarterbacks with 0 rings: List includes Ryan Leaf, David Woodley, J.P. Losman, Andre Ware, Eli Manning

Pretty self-evident who is better.

206
by sippican (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 8:09pm

The beauty of all this is after all these years, going back to Gino Capelletti, I'm still rooting for the underdog. The Pats were huge underdogs yesterday, and are 60/40 underdogs for next week.

They were underdogs every day of the last ten years. Tom Brady almost went undrafted. The greatest Patriot of all time, Troy Brown, has played his whole career, one amazing effort after another, and nobody outside of Foxboro thinks he's worth a sh*t. What was that forced fumble worth, exactly?

First you have to listen to other fans tell you that your players are crap, and then you have to listen to those same people tell you how you're doomed because those same players left, and now they're the greatest player that ever lived.

These players are dragging their hands behind them on the ground from all the diamonds, wondering if they can win one or two more before retiring; and until they're all retired, they'll be underdogs. You couldn't have found a pundit to pick the Pats this weekend with the Hubble telescope. It'll be the same in Indy.

It's marvelous to root for underdogs, for guys picked last, guys nobody else wants, and see them win. To win when you're not supposed to win is fantastic. To lose when you are the golden boy -- well, they name a face after you.

Wait 'til next year. Heard it over and over. They suck, we should have beat them.

You've got the underdog coming into your home stadium. Yeah, the Pats are nobody. But if they lose, well, it's all house money with them now, isn't it?

If you lose, at home --again-- against the underdog, you'll be eating each other like rabid animals over there. They are in San Diego today.

Indy has to win. The Pats want to win. I'll take the dog, and the points.

207
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 8:21pm

142: Sex Cannon has spoken. We should all genuflect in his honor and close the thread, no further debate is necessary.

208
by stephen young (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 8:35pm

the reason why this debate is so interesting is because:

IF PEYTON MANNING WINS 3 SUPERBOWLS, THEN HE WILL UNARGUABLY BE THE GREATEST QUARTERBACK OF ALL TIME.

I ASSUME THIS IS CORRECT BECAUSE HE IS WELL ON HIS WAY TO BECOMING THE MOST PROLIFIC PASSER OF ALL TIME. YOU ADD THAT TO 3 SUPERBOWL RINGS AND HE IS THE BEST THAT EVER PLAYED.

BUT PEYTON MANNING CANNOT WIN SUPERBOWLS ON HIS OWN. NOBODY CAN. THE COLTS CAN'T WIN THE SUPERBOWL. THE COLTS CANT WIN IN THE POSTSEASON. EVERYONE ALWAYS TALKS ABOUT PEYTON MANNING NOT BEING ABLE TO WIN THE BIG ONE. BUT FOOTBALL IS A TEAM SPORT. JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A QUARTERBACK OF A TEAM THAT WINS 3 SUPERBOWLS, DOESNT MAKE YOU BETTER THAN THE QUARTERBACK WHO'S TEAM HASNT WON ANY SUPERBOWLS THIS MODERN ERA.

YEAH, TOM BRADY IS GOOD. YEAH HE IS CLUTCH, BUT SO IS PEYTON MANNING. PEYTON MANNING WAS THE BEST IN THE LEAGUE THROWING ON THIRD DOWN. THAT IS AN INDIVIDUAL STAT.

WHATS NOT AN INDIVIDUAL STAT, HOW MANY SUPERBOWLS MANNING HAS WON. FOOTBALL IS A TEAM SPORT. AND IF MANNING CAN GO INTO THE REGULAR SEASON, AND PUT UP COLOSSAL NUMBERS EVERY SINGLE SEASON, HE SHOULD BE THE BEST QUARTERBACK TODAY.

DAN MARINO HAS NO SUPERBOWL RINGS, AND YET PEOPLE REGARD HIM AS THE GREATEST PASSER OF ALL TIME. SO WHAT IF PEYTON DOESNT HAVE A RING. HE IS MORE ACCURATE THAN BRADY, AND HAS A STRONGER ARM. ALSO, HE IS VERY GOOD AT READING DEFENSES AND IS A BRILLIANT PERSON TO BE ABLE TO AUDIBLE EVERY SINGLE PLAY.

IF PEYTON MANNING THROWS FOR A COUPLE OF TDS, AND 250 YARDS, AND THE COLTS LOSE, PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS BLAME PEYTON MANNING. BUT IF PEYTON MANNING THROWS 4 INTERCEPTIONS IN THE SUPERBOWL, AND THE COLTS WIN, PEYTON MANNING WILL NOT BE THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR SUCCESS.

ITS NOT LIKE PEYTON MANNING REFUSES TO PERFORM WELL IN THE POSTSEASON. TEAMS ARE IN THE PLAYOFFS FOR A REASON, THEY ARE IN THE PLAYOFFS BECAUSE THEY HAVE A GREAT TEAM. AND MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, THEY HAVE A GREAT DEFENSE. IS PEYTON MANNING A BAD QUARTERBACK BECAUSE HE DOESNT PUT UP THE SAME NUMBERS IN THE POSTSEASON AS HE DOES IN THE REGULAR SEASON? IS PEYTON MANNING NOT THE BEST QUARTERBACK BECAUSE HE DOESN'T PLAY PARTICULARLY WELL AFTER THE REGULAR SEASON.

TOM BRADY IS AN EXCEPTIONAL QUARTERBACK. HE DOESNT HAVE VERY GOOD TARGETS, AND YET HE PUTS UP GREAT NUMBERS. PEYTON MANNING'S NUMBERS ARE MUCH BETTER THAN BRADY'S NUMBERS. BRADY HAS THREE SUPERBOWL RINGS, SO WHAT? SO DO SOME OF THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE PATRIOTS TEAM.

MANNINGS HAND IS EMPTY, SO WHAT? MOST OF THE OTHER COLTS HAVE AN EMPTY HAND AS WELL.

FOOTBALL IS A TEAM SPORT. THERE IS NO I IN TEAM.

AS FOR PALMER/ROETHLISBERGER, CARSON PALMER IS WAY BETTER THAN BIG BEN. BIG BEN PLAYED ON A 15-1 STEELERS TEAM VERY SIMILAR TO THE 14-2 CHARGERS. AND IS PHILLIP RIVERS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR SUCCESS? NO WAY! ROETHLISBERGER THREW 3 INTERCEPTIONS IN THE SUPERBOWL!!

AND PALMER NEVER HAD A CHANCE TO REALLY PLAY IN THE PLAYOFFS, HE GOT INJURED AFTER COMPLETING A 60 YARD PASS! HOW DO WE KNOW THAT PALMER ISNT CLUTCH. ANYONE SEE THAT DENVER-CINCY GAME WHERE HE COMPLETED A 25 YARDER ON 4-10!! ANYONE SEE THAT CINCY-CAROLINA GAME WHERE HE THREW A LOB ON 4-2??? PALMER PUTS UP BETTER NUMBERS THAN BIG BEN, AND HE IS JUST CLUTCH, IF NOT MORE CLUTCH.

209
by Rick (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 8:48pm

wELL hELL, sTEPhEn yOUng HAS pOsted soMEtHing IN capS LocK. sUch AN ARgumEnt CANnnot be ReFUTeD.

ExcePT By HAVINg my cAT RANDomly STepPINg on AND OfF the CAps LOcK KEY herselF.

(seriously folks, either you're stuck in the 1950s with an upper-case only machine, or just press the CAPS LOCK key when you see something like 208. As a rule I ignore CAPS LOCK-only posts just like I ignore strangers who are shouting at me on the street.)

210
by Kyle W (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 8:58pm

All caps posts are sore too look at and are the argumentative equivalent of shouting really loudly in an attempt to win. This thread is most fun when you don't actually care who is the best. With that I will have to agree with #118, Aaron Brooks is clearly the superior player here, I have no idea how this thread manages to persist, are we the only people to realise this?

211
by kal (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:04pm

I still love the "PEYTON MANNING HAS A 99 BRADY HAS A 98 IN MADDEN" argument. Heh, heh, heh.

Awesome. Really, that should be the deciding factor.

212
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:06pm

210
DAVID GARRARD IS MUCH SUPERIOR TO AARON BROOKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

213
by Jesse (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:10pm

205-
Quarterbacks with 1 or more rings- Tom Brady, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson,

Quarterbacks with 0 rings- Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Jim Kelly

Pretty self-evident who is better.

214
by Kyle W (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:12pm

But Aaron Brooks is rated 84 in Madden and Garrard is only an 81!

215
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:15pm

214
Not after I go through training camp and the preseason with the Jaguars.

216
by Matt R (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:18pm

Football Scientist KC Joyner claims in his 06 book that Brady is clearly better.

Joyner who charts and records each and every play and uses that as the chief resource while writing the best football annual on the market (will be nice to see what FP07 does with the results of the charting project) rather than a flawed metrics that don't remotly seperate comingled nature of the data.

Not that Joyner is the end all be all but he is the best out there right now, and for someone to convince me he is wrong the burden is on them, and not on faulty context dependent data.

217
by Kyle W (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:18pm

But if you go deeper into the ratings you will see that Brooks has a 99 rating in the "Do a 14 step drop and flip the ball to an offensive tackle" rating and Garrard merely has a 97 in that category.

218
by Jesse (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:18pm

Let's extend this to all Patriot/Colt players-

Marvin Harrison SB rings: 0
Troy Brown SB rings: 3

Clearly Brown is head and shoulders above Harrison.

219
by Jesse (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:21pm

216- Football scientist Marcus McRogers in his 07 book releases never-before-seen stats charting every single pass ever thrown by Manning and Brady in their childhood, high school, college, practice, time off, etc.

He says Manning is probably 1.924857839 times better than Brady. I'm hardly going to take another man's opinion as fact, but I'm pretty convinced.

220
by Matt (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:23pm

Hey Sippican -- how sweet is it to win when you play like crap and have no right to win, but do anyway when the other team gives you two gift 15-yard penalties and fumbles away a game-sealing interception after stupidly catching the pass in the first place when it was 4th down?

That must rank up there with the sweetest wins of them all, no?

As for Pats' fans, it takes a special kind of inferiority complex to win 3 championships, 12 of 13 playoff games, and 12 to 14 games every year, and yet still to delight in underdog status. The poor Patriots get no respect, except from all of the people that call them a dynasty, or team of the decade, or geniuses, or etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

As for being underdogs week to week, the Colts have been installed as 3 poingt favorites I hear, which basically means this is a pick game with the edge to the home team. What would satisfy your lust for respect -- if the lower-seeded Patriots were always favored on the road against teams with better regular-season records than them?

221
by Harris (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:24pm

Manning is clearly a better QB because after performing open heart surgery on a fellow Benihana patron after the elderly man collapsed with a heart attack, Manning stayed up all night comforting the man's granddaughter (who was Penthouse Pet of the Year in 2004) and never made a pass at her. He then pleasured the Ravens cheerleaders, including the men, stopped during his drive to the stadium to get a little girl's cat out of a tree and then willed McNair into throwing an interception on the goal line.

222
by BD (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:25pm

208:
If Peyton Manning won 3 Super Bowl rings he would be regarded as the best all time? Of course he would be. But you could say that about almost any quarterback: Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, Eli Manning, Steve Grogan, etc.

But the fact is he has ZERO superbowl rings. Three LESS than Brady.

Sure football is a team sport. But let's set aside cliches for a moment. Many marginal quarterbacks have one superbowl ring. But only great QB's win more than one.

I'm not saying Brady is clutch. But he is the greatest quarterback of the decade. Manning is nice at throwing the ball, has nice commercials, but is a choke artist. His defense did not lose for him last year. If he is so great, he should be able to put up more points than the other team (see: Super Bowls Brady has participated in).

223
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:25pm

That's only because Garrard usually gets confused at around the 10th step, and starts running sideways before trying to run over a defensive tackle or fling the ball into the chest of a defender.

And that's what David Garrard is all about. He's got guts, he has heart. David Garrard would never stoop to throwing the ball to who he thought was an eligible reciever. That would be taking the easy way out, and there are no shortcuts to true greatness.

224
by stephen young (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:28pm

there is no I in football team. there is no i in colts. there is no i in superbowl. there is no i in clutch. there is no i in postseason successss.

the colts are not just peyton manning. peyton manning has already won the big one.

twice.

well once he shared it with steve mcnair, but it still counts. the way i see it when you compare to quarterbacks, if you compare the awards.

peyton manning mvps- 2
tom brady - 0

4000 yard seasons
peyton- 7
brady - 1

pro bowls
peyton manning-a thousand
tom brady- a few

most touchdown passes in a season
peyton manning- 49
tom brady- 28??

need i say more? when you compare postseason success, you compare teams and coaches, not individual players.

if michael jordan put up outstanding numbers, but never won a championship, is he not the best that ever played?

if the u.s. never wins the ryder cup, is tiger woods not the best golfer?

if peyton manning put up pretty good numbers, but won a few superbowls THANKS to his team, would he be better than the peyton manning who puts up ridiculous numbers? of course not.

225
by Wilt Chamberlin (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:30pm

Michael who?

226
by Sheldon (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:32pm

If Manning really wants to win this he should wear that fake moustache...better yet he should grow a real one. Then he'd be drawing on some serious mojo. That or play wearing an eyepatch. Then he'd look cooler than Brady....or at least more like a pirate.

227
by BD (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:33pm

213:

Change your criteria to "wins more than one superbowl"-- how many marginal QB's are on the list now?

Any clown can win one if his team has an exceptionally good defense and lucky run. But only the best can sustain this greatness.

Besides you are only picking examples that prove your argument. For every Jim Kelly, you have a Todd Collins, Doug Flutie, Alex Van Pelt, Kelly Holcomb, and J.P. Losman. The way I see it, superbowl wins is a valid means to judge the quality of a quarterback.

And no this does not extend to receivers, running backs, Guards, kickers, or any other position. The QB is the most important position in football.

228
by Kyle W (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:36pm

But have you seen Aaron Brooks swagger? I would consider Garrard a decent quarterback but he is lacking in swagger, it is almost embarssing how much more swagger Brooks has. Next time he is on the sideline because he has been benched for Andrew Walter just look for the swagger, you can't coach that.

229
by coldbeer4thesoul (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:41pm

This thread is weak beer compared to the daily postcard debate about Layne,Tittle and Graham that was going on the fifties.

230
by BD (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:43pm

224:

There is an I in winning superbowls.

Quarterback is the most important position in football-- period. At the risk of being too intellectual for this thread, look at DPAR #'s for top QB's and other positions. There is no comparison.

Your other examples are ridiculous. Michael Jordan won many championships. How can you logically take his championships away?

In the Ryder Cup, each golfer is 1/10 of his team. Tom Brady was worth 76 points over replacement this year for the Patriots. The Pats scored 385 points this year. Brady is clearly worth more to the Patriots success than 1/10.

Look, I am not even a Pats fan-- I actually like the Buffalo Bills. Jim Kelly is my favorite player of all time. But there's no way I would argue that he was better than Troy Aikman.

231
by BD (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:45pm

228:

I think you made a typo. Aaron Brooks was "staggering" after getting hit so many times. You wrote swagger. It's OK, happens to the best of us.

232
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:45pm

Okay, good point. But while I think swagger is extremely important, it is not everything.
To be specific, Garrard's poise and leadership are outstanding. He always looks very confident and exudes that confidence to the broadcast booth, and you just can't teach that.
As for leadership, he has single handedly soured an entire community on a top ten draft pick at qb who has played well and won lots of games for the Jaguars. Then, he takes over, plays worse, and everyone still loves him. That's either amazing brainwashing, or otherworldly leadership, I'm not quite sure which. Either way, that's much more impressive than the residue of Aaron Brooks' swagger inspiring the Saints to make it to the NFCCCG

233
by Jason Mulgrew aka Da Dawg (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:48pm

aka The Douche Thread

234
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:52pm

227: Jim Kelly? Maybe losing four super bowls is a more difficult achievement than winning one.

235
by Jesse (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 9:53pm

227- Ever heard of reduction ad absurdum (click my name). Something cannot be both true and false. Lumping people together by SB wins is retarded because it proves nothing, as I proved in my post. You can selectively pick whoever you want. If the poster I was mocking had put Jim Kelly and Dan Marino along with Peyton Manning, the lists would have been pretty similar. Instead, he was selecting those who made his point.

The fact that Manning would widely be considered the best ever by winning a few deflate the whole argument for Tom Brady. Winning a Super Bowl is a team accomplishment, and if the whole team lets you down, it doesn't matter how many yards you throw for. Comparing players in general is often absurd, because they rely on the players around them. If you say Brady's better because he has won more in the postseason, all you're saying is Brady's teams have been better coached, better trained, had better players, etc. With that I would not argue. To say that you can compare players by what they have won in the postseason is absurd as I just demonstrated. If you're going to bother comparing them, then compare them by how good they are at tangible stuff: statistics. Statistically, Manning is far superior. If you want to argue who is better at winning Super Bowls or who is a better leader, who, by luck of the draw, ended up on a team with a better coach and a better defense, then that is something else entirely, but you can't judge a quarterback by something that goes far beyond the quarterbacking position entirely. A super bowl win involves so much more than one quarterback on one team. Roethlisberger stunk it up in XL, but you would probably argue he's better than Manning because he has a ring. Absurd.

236
by Dave (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:05pm

227, considering that there have only been 40 Super Bowls, we've got a serious small sample size problem here, but the QBs with multiple SB wins are
Bart Starr, Bob Greise, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Jim Plunkett, John Elway, and Tom Brady (I think that's it, if we're only counting games where the guy got most of the snaps at QB). Greise's not all that great (or at least the Dolphins didn't rely on the passing game). I don't know anything about Plunkett. Bradshaw's definitely a good-but-not great player. Probably Starr belongs in that category, too.

237
by Kyle W (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:12pm

I neglected to consided Garrard's brainwashing skills, they do place him on a whole other level of play.

However I feel you may have forgotten about Brooks' bravey and determination. Not only was he gutsy enough to go out and start behind the Oakland Raiders offensive line this year he also had the balls to drop back and attempt to throw the ball downfield, and then to make an attempt to tackle the safety he just threw it to.

Not only that he was mentally tough enough to return to the field after he had been pulled and do it again. You just can't buy grit and determination like that.

238
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:21pm

All good points. My only rejoinder is that it's easy to be manly in the silver and black. Whatever else they are, they're the Oakland Raiders: Al Davis, John Madden, Halloween all year round. Give me the guys who can muster ANY grit and determination wearing teal.

239
by Jimb (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:22pm

Patriots Nation could care less about QB stats. If I could post a photo you'd be looking at three Super Bowl rings. Obviously Peyton is a better passer by statistics. But stats are worthless when we get down to the Playoffs. The real question is; How is Peyton gonna fuck it up this time?

240
by The Jerricho Road (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:32pm

Peytom Branning.

241
by Yaguar (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:33pm

Carson Palmer, not Tom Brady, is the second-best quarterback in football. I'm just putting that out there.

242
by Jason Mulgrew aka Da Dawg (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:34pm

Hey Jimb,

Bite me.

You and I know Brady will blow on Sunday.

Manning to the Super Bowl, Jimb! Get used to it, baby doll.

243
by BD (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:34pm

236:

No I've never heard of reduction ad absurdum, but since that was ad hominem (see link), I'll let it pass.

Yes some of my posts were a little tongue in cheek.

But I think you msut consider Brady's superbowl wins in your evaluation of him. Regardless of team, coaching, etc., certainly SOME responsibility for winning or losing playoff games lies with the quarterback. And the quarterback is clearly the most important player in the game of football in the 21st century. This is probably especially so for a team like the Colts who depend heavily on the play of their quarterback.

Bob Griese won 2 superbowls, had a career passer rating of 77.1, and is a hall of famer. Trent Dilfer happened to be on a superbowl-winning team and had a career passer rating of 71.1 (in an era where that is a LOW number compared to his peers) and is clearly NOT a hall of famer. To win more than one superbowl, you must be a good to great quarterback. I don't see why that is so hard to accept.

Manning is a great quarterback. Perhaps one of the greatest ever. But Brady is better in my opinion. MVPs and other accolades are subjective. Rings are not, even if the player is not wholly responsible for them.

244
by Jesse (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:35pm

You can't make a logical argument for someone based on intangibles and strengths/weaknesses that are in the eye of the beholder. There is not, in my knowledge, a single conventional quarterbacking stat that places Brady ahead of Manning by more than a marginal amount, and everything from touchdowns to DPAR to DVOA to qb rating to completion percentage says Manning is far better.

As a matter of fact, if you're brave enough to go to their player pages and go through their statistics, Manning is anywhere from marginally to greatly superior to Tom Brady in ever category including sacks, td:int ratio, yardage, everything. The only advantage Brady has is in one little category that falls under team accomplishments: super bowl wins. And as I've proven, winning a super bowl doesn't mean you're a good quarterback

245
by The Jerricho Road (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:36pm

Peyton Manning...you know, if you like, 6'5", 220 pound quaterbacks, laser, rocket arm..

246
by Kyle W (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:39pm

But remember that this year the greatest quarterback in the NFL had a hotelier as an offensive coordinator and the most lost lookimg head coach I have ever seen on an NFL sideline. The grit and determination shown simply to show up in that situation is immense, regardless of what colours you are playing in.

247
by DaveO (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:41pm

I put this out there before in response to "Matt F", but he didn't bite; so I'll try the group at large.

Show of hands, who thinks that Tom Brady won the game for the Pats on Sunday?

248
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:43pm

Manning's greatness as only Youtube can express it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPzGI3JAbs0&eurl=

249
by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:44pm

After post 125, the truly funny jokes petered out, and we were left with people just spouting caricatures of actual arguments. Then around post 190 people started spouting actual arguments of caricatures. I'm guessing the cycle will continue with the truly ridiculous arguments disappearing around post 315, and truly funny jokes returning at post 380. In other words return around 10 AM tomorrow for more jokes. And you stay classy, #400.

250
by Jesse (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:44pm

243- Yes, of course SB rings are important. I'm not going to try to deny that. Obviously winning three isn't a fluke, and I'm not arguing that Brady is bad, merely that winning three rings is his only accomplishment. Statistically, he has always been good, but never great. He's never had a year anywhere close to Manning's year.

Some stats the media will never tell you: Manning has a higher completion percentage, and more touchdowns in December. He's also WAY better when trailing, Brady is mediocre, Manning is unbelievable. Check the stats, if you dare. Believe it or not, he's also better on the road. And in the fourth quarter.

For all his reputation as clutch and being good when behind and being good on the road and all, Brady doesn't even compare to Manning. So like I said earlier, the only stat he has a leg up in is SB rings, and that's not an individual accomplishment.

251
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:46pm

Firstly, many hoteliers are offensive, like it or not.

Secondly, "the most lost looking head coach"? Huh? Rob Ryan looked pretty alive to me. And don't start with the Charlie McCarthy puppet conspiracy doll theory, because you and I both know that was not a real person on the Raiders' sideline.

Thirdly, I'm not denying the greatness of Aaron Brooks. He's merely 1A, which is nothing to be ashamed of.

252
by Matt R (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:49pm

"obviously Peyton is a better passer by statistics. "

Peyton Manning in the Colts context has better passing statistcis than Tom Brady. Which of course means nothing in terms of who is a better player.

If you watch the Film as KC Joyner has does which he publishes teh results for all to see - believes it is obvious that Brady is better.

Purchase his book it is well worth the money.

Jesse, I offer you the same challange - purchase the book and if you disagree and can provide sound reasoning then perhaps your argument will be convincing. As of know your argument is a waste.

The link to his website is clickable on my name.

Anyone seriously trying to debate the issue with out seeing the results of every play by each player charted and graded is speaking without basis.

253
by B (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:51pm

226: An Eyepatch is okay, but he'd be much better off with a pegleg and a hook-hand. Maybe a parrot, too.

254
by Don M (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:51pm

While I've really enjoyed much of this thread, including some of the very vehement rants.
The thing I think will find most amusing is when this weekend Peyton Manning is able to will his defense to play much better than they have in the pass and "Get inside Tom Brady's head" by magically causing the volume in the RCA dome to be somewhere between fighter plane at takeoff and Ted Nugent concert in the 80's, which will allow Peyton to prevent the Pats line from coming off the ball hard on running plays and prevent Brady from being able to change the play at the line. Now we know from past experience that Tom Brady can control the weather, but unless he can make it snow INSIDE the dome I don't think that particular trick will do him much good.

255
by Jesse (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 10:58pm

252- Then you speak without basis, because I doubt you've seen every play. Seriously, deferring your argument to some random sports scientist I've never heard of isn't very convincing.

256
by sippican (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:01pm

Hey Sippican — how sweet is it to win when you play like crap and have no right to win...

There is only one way to have "the right to win." You look at the scoreboard when the clock runs out. The rest is applesauce. And whining.

As for Pats’ fans, it takes a special kind of inferiority complex to win 3 championships, 12 of 13 playoff games, and 12 to 14 games every year, and yet still to delight in underdog status.

It is human nature, at least in America, to root for the underdog. It appeals to the best part of our natures. The most important statue in the world is not of Goliath, after all.

I used to crack up laughing every time I heard Rodney talking about the disrespect thing. Such are the motivations of competitors. But he wasn't wrong. It wasn't hard to find it.

But there is nothing sweeter in this world than winning through effort while the more talented stumble. Everybody else is always trying to find a surefire bandwagon to jump on, as they wanna dance on the five yard line.

It's fun to be a Pats fan. It's supposed to be fun, isn't it?

257
by BD (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:02pm

Thank you 252 and 254.

And really the difference between Peyton and Brady is not just 3 superbowl rings. Brady in the postseason is 12 - 1 and Manning is 5 - 6. That's 3/4 of a season. Yes, different teams, coaches, etc, but if Manning is so valuable to his team, and so great, where are the playoff wins?

And what is with everyone saying Brady has the great coaching anyway? Would anyone who reads this site take someone who is dressed like Belichek seriously? To paraphrase Mark Twain, clothes do make the man...

258
by fungus (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:05pm

re: the rings issue

Say hypothetically, that the Baltimore Ravens won two more Superbowls after the 2000 season, and in each of those seasons Trent Dilfer did about the same as in 2000, and then say his career declined after that.

Would such a turn of events make Dilfer a better quarterback than Dan Marino?

I'm inclined to say yes. Mostly because I find Marino annoying for some reason.

259
by Kyle W (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:06pm

I am glad we have decided to agree on the respective greatness of Aaron Brooks and David Garrard.

Just don't get me started on Jon Kitna.

260
by DaveO (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:09pm

252:

Does your guru fully and completely explain his methodology in a forum that I don't have to shell out money to access?

261
by Papa Narb (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:20pm

Re: 252

Isn't this the same guy that published a report in the beginning of the season that said the Bengals were building the next football dynasty?

262
by Matt R (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:21pm

"52- Then you speak without basis, because I doubt you’ve seen every play. Seriously, deferring your argument to some random sports scientist I’ve never heard of isn’t very convincing."

I'm defering because even though I've watched most plays from both teams I haven't charted the games. He has - and has punlished books the last two years on his findings and writes for ESPN insider.

He is certainly a reasonable source to quote. Much more reasonable than some dude "Jesse" who hasn't offered up any evidence.

I wouldn't call him my "guru" I would call him an expert on the topic. I think Aaron is an expert at team level evaluation, but not player level evaluation. I'm an expert at nothing.

Most of the methodology is on the site in the free sample of the 06 book.

263
by Jason Mulgrew aka Da Dawg (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:24pm

re: 252

That guy sucks. He said The Eags were doomed if McNabb were to get injured.

264
by Jesse (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:24pm

259- You'll find no argument from me there. Kitna is truly among the greatest true passers of our generation, and I think we can all agree that the same could be said of Charlie Frye.

265
by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:30pm

In all seriousness, I think Kitna's gotten a bit of a bad rap, and has been better than most people think he is.

266
by TOMBRADYISGODROFL (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:35pm

Why are people making serious arguments in this thread?

267
by fungus (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:36pm

257: Better Belichick's hobbit outfit than Mike Nolan's Ward Cleaver costume. That guy looks ridiculous.

268
by Jesse (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:43pm

266- It's therapeutic.

490- Take your homer crap elsewhere. This thread is for serious discussion only.

269
by ZS (not verified) :: Mon, 01/15/2007 - 11:49pm

Peyton Manning is a pioneer. He's opened the door for athletes named "Peyton" to exist.

270
by David A. (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:14am

Would you rather go karaoke with Manning or Brady? Clearly, Brady is the type of guy who'd scoff at the notion and look down his nose at you for wanting to sing karaoke, whereas Manning would be all for it and volunteer to sing "The Tractor Song" once he got a couple beers down. In other words, Brady is OBVIOUSLY a no goodnik jerk and Manning is a lovable intellectual oaf.

Anyway, here is a YouTube video I posted describing what I hope happens this weekend.

271
by Kyle W (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:16am

#265 I agree here, I think on a different team Kitna could put in a performance similar to that of Garcia this year. Just can't quite see that in Detroit though.

272
by B (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:36am

270: We can only hope, I suppose.

273
by Mahercor (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:39am

Pats players are wearing a medical device that allows them to knock the other team silly like a prize fighter. No wonder the Chargers looked confused, the Pats banged them into submission while staying focused. Read about it in ESPN the magazine, the NFL has got it all wrong when it comes to protecting its players. It is a distinct advantage and the Pats are going to bang the hell out of Indy, it may be the difference. It has been in the past.

274
by Terry Bradshaw (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:44am

Super Bowl rings are the best measure of any quarterback's ability. If you doubt me ask my friend Trent Dilfer.

275
by ferastu (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:47am

270: Brady singing karaoke here.

I couldn't find one of Manning. I guess that throws your argument on its head.

276
by admin :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:50am

Even in the irrational Brady-Manning thread, the no politics rule still applies. We don't want anyone to feel like they can't read FO because of their political beliefs. Thank you.

277
by MarkB (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:53am

God hates big-headed Gomers. God loves guys who hit-and-run Tara Reid. Nuff said.

278
by Jesse (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:53am

276- Good Lord, You mean you guys read every single post in these threads to monitor the comments? I have just gained a great deal of respect for whoever has to read all this garbage

279
by Buck Naked (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:58am

Manning's better.

"Despite Brady's reputation as an American sex symbol (he recently broke up with model/actress Bridget Moynahan), Manning was chosen as the quarterback American women would "most like to see up close in HDTV" in a survey conducted by Sony."

Click name for full article.

Ron Mexico got 2 votes...but both were retracked. The 2 voters thought the poll read "the QB who gave me an STD".

280
by White Rose Duelist (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 1:58am

can we set up a separate thread for irrational Brooks-Garrard arguments? They're cluttering up this thread which obviously has nothing to do with them.

281
by Mark from Pittsburgh (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 2:15am

Obviously, Ben Roethlisberger is better than either Brady or Manning. Let's see either of them do a helmetless header into a windshield off their sport bike, then show up for training camp. In fact, Ben's so tough, he ate his own appendix a week before opening day. No anesthesia. No salt either. Cowher benched him for it, but Ben could have played. And that's why Cowher retired.

Big Ben eats a fishhook before every game and then drops an anvil on his foot. Let's see Brady or Manning try that!

Manning would never eat his own appendix because he plays for Indianapolis, and people who play for Indianapolis are pansies. And Brady, he probaby tapes foam packing to his head when he's off the field, for fear of hurting his pwetty wittle face. Another pansy.

Big Ben puts fire ants in his ear before each series!

Big Ben eats only cheese for meals for an entire week so the constipation will fuel his desire!

Brady? Manning? Pansies! It's a shame they can't both lose!

282
by Jesse (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 2:24am

280- Apologies for sidetracking a thread that was otherwise entirely serious and that had some really good dialogs going back and forth

300- Enough with the personal attacks

283
by David A. (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 2:37am

275 - I'll have to check that out when I get home from work and can listen.

276 - I'm sorry if my attempt at using an absurd political insult to highlight the absurdity of this argument unduly offended anyone. (If you're not offended by baby-eating, well... I don't know what to say.)

284
by Michael B (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 2:41am

love these discussions.

guys who post short stories in BOLD. people who say brady is better because he has three rings. in short, it brings out the idiots.

i am a patriot fan and its CLEAR manning is the better QB. doesnt mean i dont love tom, but lets be real here.

285
by Yaguar (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 3:24am

284: Thanks. And as a Colts fan, I'm perfectly willing to admit that Richard Seymour is better than our entire defense put together. And maybe, just maybe, that sort of thing is the reason why you're playing for your fourth Superbowl next week, and we're playing for our first.

286
by Zug Zug (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 3:37am

When I think of Tom Brady, I think of Luke Skywalker, who was played by Mark Hamill, who voice-acted for Robot Chicken, which was created by Seth Green, who was born in Philadelphia, which is where cheesesteaks come from, which was invented in 1930, which is when Constantinople became Istanbul, and that was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, which was created by Constantine who believed in Christ who was the person around which the largest religion in the world is based, which is based in Italy, who allied with France in World War 1, which ended in France's victory, which has the largest rail system in Europe, including a connection to England, where the Puritans emigrated from, to settle in Massachusetts, which is the state that will eventually build the stadium in which Tom Brady will play.

Therefore, Brady is the Alpha and the Omega, and possibly has something to do with Jesus.

When I think of Peyton Manning, I think of Mastercard, and they asked me Whats in My Wallet with David Spade, whos only famous because he acted with Chris Farley, who was fat like Gautama Buddha, who attained Enlightenment at the age of 35, which is how long it took NASA to solve the problem of short gamma ray bursts, which occured when neutron stars hit black holes, which is so strong light cannot escape its gravitational pull, which was theorized by Newton, who is buried in Westminster Abbey with Charles Darwin, who created the Theory of Evolution which led to religious backlash and the Scopes Monkey Trial, which disproved literal translation of the Bible, which was printed by Gutenberg and purchased by Bill Gates who donated to the Red Cross that helped out Peyton Manning's own state of Louisiana.

Therefore, Peyton Manning is not bends the fabric of space-time, but he advanced science so we can boldy go where no one has gone before, and he probably liked Tommy Boy.

In summation, people who like faith like Brady, people who like fact like Manning.

287
by Jeremiah (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 4:24am

If you put a gun to my head, I'd go with Peyton Manning. Even saying that, why do so many posters here pretend like this debate just boils down to the media overrating players on winning teams. Brady has been more 'clutch' than Manning in the past, even if he is not playing as well this postseason. You can make a pretty easy stat-based argument for it too. Manning's QB rating has declined from regular season to postseason quite substantially, and more so than Brady's. There you have it. Does this make Manning a worse quarterback? Not in my eyes, but you could make a good argument for Brady because of it.

288
by joe (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 4:26am

lolz

289
by Bobman (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 4:48am

Sorry to inject reason, or at least an attempt at rational thought, especially when I am working on commission and on a deadline and it's freakin' midnight, but someone posited last year (here? I don't recall) that homework is the reason for Manning's post-season falloff, not "choking" or whatever.

The theory goes that he is such a superior QB during the regular season because of his work habits--no sleep for months on end, 27 hours of film study daily, catching every nuance of his upcoming opponents. Perhaps I exaggerate. But his opponents put in a LOT less time. They take time to eat, crap, and date celebrities. Some beat their wives, some drive naked through fast food drive throughs. In terms of on-field performance, it does not matter what they do, but it takes time from their 100% committment to homework.

Say Manning puts in 10 extra hours each week that the others do not. It gives him a prep edge that we can clearly see on the field and on paper.

Come playoff time everybody does that and guess what, the field is levelled. If he could clone himself and double the prep work, then he'd be good to go in the postseason. As it is, he's mortal.

Still the best QB, maybe ever, day in-day out. Coach on the field, play-caller, thrower, hand-offer, this year he's even a stud running QB with 4 TDs. It's just that in the playoffs, the others elevate their game to meet him. The laws of physics and anatomy prevent him from elevating his game any further.

Oh, and his D has generally sucked throughout--this year due to injuries--so while his stats may dip, his support system has been non-existent before the 2006 playoffs. Interesting to see where this years's path ends up. Will they win it all because of him, or DESPITE him? Or will they stumble on the way?

Oh, and Ben actually puts fire ants in his ears? Man, that's just nuts.

290
by Allen (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 4:54am

50:
Ninjalectual, I was literally on the floor, laughing with tears in my eyes. Thank you, sir.

291
by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 5:00am

I love all the people saying, "Brady isn't really clutch!"...when Peyton has had most of his STATISTICALLY bad days in the playoffs.

Just look at the playoff stats people. Manning has lit it up in all of..what...three games? Four?

292
by Huggy (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 5:29am

286: ROFL

293
by ChrisFromNJ (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 9:05am

If Peyton had the luxury of playing on a team with Bill Belichick's defense to bail him out in his mediocre playoff performances (or simply to not be playing against him, since a Patriots-style 3-4 is the one defense that Manning has had any record of real struggles against), he'd have at least two rings by now. (2003, 2004, maybe 2005)

If Tom Brady had the luxury of throwing to Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne for years on end instead of a revolving door of stiffs like Gaffney, Caldwell, and Givens (who I hear has been LIGHTS OUT in Tennessee), he'd be putting up the best passing numbers in the NFL today. But they still wouldn't be quite as dominant as what Manning is doing.

In conclusion, Manning is the best passer in the NFL, and Brady is tied for #2 (since we really can't discount Palmer, Brees, or McNabb either). That being said, Manning needs to come up big once, just once, against a 3-4 during the playoffs before he can be considered one of the best ever. Not because rings make the man (they are a factor, but only one among many), but simply because he's had so many opportunities and flubbed every single one. Same goes for Brady: I can't think of him as anything more than a very good, but very very lucky QB, until he shows he can dominate the QB statlines once, just once.

294
by Rick (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 10:07am

re: 174
OK, I've been thinking about this "clap clap clap-clap-clap" argument. I felt at first that it should be easily shot down. But it's not that easy.

The theory is that all the best QBs have four syllable names, so they can fit in the "clap clap clap-clap-clap" cheer. So
Pey-ton Man-ning
(clap clap clap-clap-clap)
is better than
Tom Bra-dy
(clap clap huh?)

I've been trying some other QBs out, and it works!

Dan Ma-ri-no
(clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Joe Mon-ta-na
(clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Ro-ger Stau-bach
(clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Ter-ry Brad-shaw
(clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Y. A. Ti-tle
(clap clap clap-clap-clap)

The next two are a bit off with the cadence, but still fit the cheer.
Matt Has-sel-back
(clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Frank Tar-ken-ton
(clap clap clap-clap-clap)

Now, let's look at some weaker QBs:
Ry-an Leaf
(clap clap huh?)
Rex Gross-man
(clap clap huh?)
Aa-ron Brooks
(clap clap huh?)

Clearly this is a good rule.

I've also learned that all of the following QBs sucked: John Elway, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Steve Young, Troy Aikman, Dan Fouts, Phil Simms, Boomer Esiason, Ken Stabler, and Brett Favre.

And Tommy Maddox rules.

295
by Nate Dunlevy (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 11:03am

Just a question, but when can we get a Manning/Brady commerical where they play Horse together? They could each call a series of ever escalating shots. The winner could get a Whopper! That would be so sweet.

296
by White Rose Duelist (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 11:27am

#295 - They can do it in conjunction with Levitra and try to throw it through the tire in increasingly complicated ways.

(yes, I expect this to go to comment limbo land)

297
by Grouchy Bills Fan (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 11:47am

280: I asked for a thread for irrational Brian Moorman - Shane Lechler arguments, and got nothing. Obviously this is because Aaron is a Pats Homer.

298
by Basilicus (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 11:58am

#295:

Sorry, but Brady doesn't do commercials without his teammates. That's just the kind of guy he is, and that's why he's better than Manning.

He doesn't need to disguise himself in order to laud himself in his commercials. He doesn't need to debase himself to the common folk in order to gain their support.

Brady - if anything - pushes himself far into the background, so that his teammates can enjoy the limelight as it searches for him. Why, I can't even think of what Tom Brady looks like. He could have the face of Dick Cheney for all I know. But I know what his teammates look like, and how bright and beautiful their souls are.

299
by Blair (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:31pm

I used to think that Peyton was the better quarterback... USED to. Now, after watching the Chargers/Patriots game I believe otherwise. After seeing that interception on 4th down that was subsequently fumbled, I know why Tom Brady "just wins". He has sold his soul to the Devil for NFL supremacy. Bill Bellicheck too. Think about it. Bill was horrible in Cleveland. Now he's one of the greatest coaches ever? What happened?

Satan. That's what.

That's why the Patriots "just win".

Why did Doug Gabriel get cut? If you will remember, there seemed to be no logical reason. Did he not buy in to the Patriots "team philosphy"? Maybe he just wanted a chance to go to Heaven when he dies.

When you play for the Patriots, you are contractually obligated to sign your soul over. That is why Tom Brady is better. That is why Tom Brady "just wins".

Me, I'll keep rooting for Peyton. A vote for Tom Brady is a vote for Satan. And I will not sit here and listen to you Tom Brady supporters bad-mouth God!

300
by MCS (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:49pm

re. 290

Allen - Not to take away from the wit of
Ninjalectual (he was the one who thought to use it), but check the link in my name.