The best name at the combine: Offensive lineman Guy Whimper.

Aaron, can you confirm Florio's story that Vince Young scored a 6 on the Wonderlic? If so, are people mentioning the possibility of a free fall, or do they still think he'll go high?

Unfortunate attitude by Michael Robinson, especially in contrast to that of Skyler Green. The last thing Robinson needs is to be thought of as the next Eric Crouch.

Mike Holmgren didn't lose the superbowl because of the officiating, he lost the superbowl because he let the officiating get to him. He is acting like a complete child.

Ian

Fox Sports has a blurb on their website that the NFL is set to announce the salary cap tomorrow (about 95 million) and that one NFL owner told his staff that a deal will be made on the CBA before the March 3rd deadline.

Link attached.

I realize there is no direct correlation between wonderlic scores and how well a player plays but I think it's pretty damning to Vince Young that no current Starting QB in the NFL scored lower than a 14 (and that was J.P. Losman) and only 4 scored under a 20.

Combine that with Jay Cutler going all hulk like and we may have the darkest day in the history of sports.....Skip Bayless being......right.

It still boggles my mind that 2 tenths of a second on the 40 yard dash will drop a guy so far in the draft. Do I really need Eric Winston to run 40 yards at a balls to the wall pace in a straight line?

No. No I don't.

Oh no, please no more superbowl comments for the love of god. I think Robinson's words and his actions will diverge at some point. I mean he did spend his college career being shuffled from RB to WR to RB to QB so he's shown a willingness to be a team player.

Was the answer related specifically to a question about playing Safety? I mean switching positions (playing WR instead of QB) is one thing, but switching sides of the ball is quite another.

Great article!

Re: 3
The perception of poor officiating wasn't limited to the Super Bowl, or even this past season.

I'm pretty disappointed that Holmgren stepped down from the Competition Committee, because he seems like someone who can help push for a change. It will be interesting to see if the NFL decides to put its head in the sand again regarding officiating. It was bad in 2004 and got worse in 2005...

Re: Vince Young's Wonderlic
I'd bet $$$ that the rumor originated in New York.

michael robinson has said he is willing to switch positions if it helps his draft stock. though, i've also seen quotes from him that say he would prefer to keep playing QB.

does anyone know where to get info on wonderlick scores?

Wait a minute, could it be our beloved Outsiders are becoming...insiders?
Sounds good to me.

PFW LINK FROM PFT RE WONDERLIC

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Insider/2005/Wonderl...

– I did get up to Gary Kubiak after his press conference and told him that we had named our player projection system after him, at which point he looked at me like I had three heads.

I think this line is one of the best so far. Great job guys.

– The city of Indianapolis wanted to charge the NFL an absurd amount of money for Internet connections so we’re all going off dial-up. It’s like living in the Stone Age.

I feel your pain. My house is in one of the few places where it is impossible to get cable internet or DSL (no providers), so we're stuck with dial up. My dorm has a nice network connection, so going to my house and trying to use the internet is just painful.

I'm glad to see Sando didn't disappoint. Perhaps the one nice thing the city of Tacoma has going for it :p

What is in the Wonderlick and where can I get it?
And: who made it, why, how and whatfor?

The Wonderlic is a 50 question test of logical reasoning. You get 12 minutes to answer all 50 questions. A score of 20 is considered average and correlates to an IQ of 100, more or less. I don't know its history, but it's not just an NFL product; it saw workplace use back when testing was in vogue (at least in the U.S., not sure about other countries).

The only copy I've seen is in Dr. Z's book The New Thinking Man's Guide to Pro Football. He also give breakdowns for various positions, at least as of when the book was written (like '84). O-linemen generally scored highest, mid-20's, with QBs in the same area, while D-linemen were lowest (like 15 average). The link in #10 above has some information on recent scores, though I don't know how much to trust them, given it was widely reported last year that Ryan Fitzpatrick scored a perfect 50, and that has him down for 38.

As for Young, I thought I remembered hearing how he had dyslexia, but could be mis-remembering. In that case, the Wonderlic might come out difficult, and a non-written test might show his intelligence better. Or he might have scored a 6 because he really, really deserved to.

is vince young illiterate? cuz thats pretty much what u need to get a 6; or truly and sincerely dumb.

They're streaming it online at nfl.com again, but I can't get it to work for me.

again...

2005 draftee scores on wonderlic...

PFW LINK FROM PFT RE WONDERLIC

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Insider/2005/Wonderl...

also see sample test

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020228test.html

The lowest Wonderlic score ever was "achieved" by Brent Fullwood. Fullwood, for those of you too young to remember, was a running back for Auburn who was literally dumber then a box of rocks.

He scored a 1. By signing his name. And stories continue to circulate that he had to look that up on his drivers license.

To my knowledge Fullwood did not have a learning disability. Just a complete inability to learn. Or retain information. Or do much of anything other then take the ball and run.

He had one good year in 1989 and made the Pro Bowl as an alternate. After that his willingness to have a good time and inability to understand the basics quickly got him on the street.

Stories aplenty about how the Packers tried to help Fullwood understand the playbook. Nothing much helped.

I personally would NEVER draft a player with a Wonderlic score in single digits. I know that seems arbitrary, but an ability to learn matters in ANY profession. And unless the player has a KNOWN issue the team is wasting its resources trying to get someone educated enough to contribute.

Harsh? Probably. But investments in the future are precious commodities. Why bother with defective product?

Be sure to toss around words like "callous", "cruel", and "mean-spirited". If I am going to be labeled at least get the adjectives correct.

Can everyone quit calling it the Wonderlick...that's a totally different test that guys making $5mm a year don't have to take.

A six would be truly atrocious. I mean really horrible and terribly bad. The only caution on this, and it was brought up before is if VY is indeed dyslexic or has some other learning disability. Something like that can make a timed written test almost unpossible (would six on the wonderlic be "the wiggum line"?) to take. You have about 15 seconds for each question, for someone who has difficulty reading that's too high of a hill to climb. Anyone have an insight into VY's SATs. I'm fairly certain that people with reading difficulties can get an exemption and take the test untimed.

Aaron, is he a crip or is he on roids?

The more I see of the combine, 2 tenths seems completely irrelavent in the 40, 3 cone drill or the shuttle, as does any number of BP's over 30. Then you flip the channel over to arena football and you realize that there are more people with the physical tools to play football than you can shake a stick at.

Ultimately, I think the abilities to learn and continually strive to improve onself (both in the filmroom and the weightroom) as well as the intangibles of knowing when to cut/bump etc etc are far more important.

All this kind of leaves me with the most uncomfortable impression that this whole draft process is a huge crapshoot with far more randomness than not. It's February and I feel lost.....someone help me.

Kruger,

Just look at the NBA, NHL, and MLB drafts and you'll realize that NFL GM's do a very good job and the football draft is nowhere near the crapshoot that the other drafts are. The 3-year-rule certainly helps a lot.

Yes, in the NFL draft all the good players are taken in the first round or two.

It's funny Childress said they only have 2 running backs on the roster, mentioning Mewelde Moore and Echemandu. Ciatrick Fason anyone?

Re 22
But that's just the point. The NFL might have done some tinkering, but it is essentially the same test a company like Duke Power was using to people who shoveled coal (see this Supreme Court case). If Aaron's 16 on a retake score is correct about VY, then I'd be much less concerned about him. That's the sort of score I'd expect from him, and would validate my impression: he's not a cerebral quarterback, but is instead an outstanding athlete who was a spectacular college QB and could be a very good pro if he doesn't get thrown in right away.

Re Aaron's Update
There's a Cornell College in Iowa, thus the need to differentiate.

Re #23

Don't forget the ability to endure pain. Lots and lots of pain.

Rowdy Roddy Piper - the hindlick maneuver is a corporate suckup technique...

There is another explanation I guess for the low score - perhaps Vince thinks the test is just a meaningless roadbump on the way to payday, which wouldnt surprise me at all. And/or he wasnt paying attention at pre-combine training or orientation or whatever he attended or heard from his agent...

Re #26 + #27 - Echemandu and Fason - I was just going from a quote I saw in the Pioneer Press. http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/sports/football/13957177.htm

But maybe he wasn't truly counting Echemandu as one of those two since he's such an unknown.

Marinelli's comments about handspeed reminds me of the SF practice (years ago) of hiring a martial arts instructors for OL/DL and it seemed to really help them, w/their basics and "grappling" techniques. BTW I'm also biased toward guys who have wrestled in high school/college for a number of years as it shows who will consistently win in the trench wars....

Another pre-teen cheerleading competition? I was at the Indy convention center about a month and a half ago and there was one then too. The worst were the overweight ones with bare midriffs *shudder*. No idea why any parent thinks this is a good thing to put their children through.

I'd also like to mention that Cornell College in Iowa is a fine school by all accounts, one of the Colleges That Change Lives (see link)

someone totaled the #s up wrong? profootballtalk says "POSTED 5:56 p.m. EST, February 26, 2006

COMBINE OFFICIAL SCREWED UP VINCE'S WONDERLIC

A league source tells us that Texas quarterback Vince Young indeed scored a six on the Wonderlic test on Saturday -- but that the guy who graded the test screwed the thing up when totaling the number of right answers.

Combine officials, we're told, have re-scored the Young's test and the test of all other players who took it in his group. NFL teams will get the numbers of all players who took the test later in the week.

On Saturday, there was widespread chatter at the combine that Young got only six out of 50 questions right on the standard test used by the NFL to gauge player intelligence. The Nashville Tennessean corroborated the reports of the low score in its Sunday edition.

Whether the actual number was 6 or 50 or something in between remains to be seen.

It's a major embarrassment, in our view, for the folks who put on the combine. Because it's inevitable that this information will get out (indeed, Pro Football Weekly got their mitts on the full Wonderlic results from the 2005 combine), it's critical that the folks charged with grading the tests get it right.

It's even more important that the scores are right before the information is leaked.

We have a feeling that this one could get interesting. Stay tuned.
"

Lot of interesting information there.

Though I wonder why they'd show the AFL Salary, though that might be more geared to those people who are scoring 6 on the Wonderlic.

I think it was Byron Leftwich who scored really low on it his first time around, crammed for it, and then rose it to something halfway decent. I really wouldn't be surprised to see Vince Young take it at least one more time.

Re #36
I don't remember hearing that about Leftwich. Jason Campbell of Auburn, though, was a guy who scored really low the first time and made a dramatic jump, as the PFW link in #19 notes.

The Wonderlic, as with any standardized test, SAT or whatever, is inherently biased. From what I've read about it, gauging intelligence from the Wonderlic is akin to judging a baseball player's worth by how many runs he scores; it's an extremely rough measure. I'd bet that, as stated above, he simply didn't care about it, and why should he? He's going to be one of the first four QBs taken, regardless. I question why NFL teams bother with the test because, while some level of testing would be attractive to smaller companies that are willing to trade in-depth analysis for a quick picture of job applicants' faculties, the NFL and its teams have the time and resources to do in-depth interviews with 300-odd players, rendering the standardized test moot. Frank Gore has severe learning disabilities, so he scored a 6 or so on the Wonderlic. After his knee issues, that also pushed him down to the third round of the draft. And you know what? The Niners performed their due diligence and found that the knees would be the real concern. Vince Young may have learning disabilities, he may simply not care about a standardized test, or he may be afflicted with some issues about "looking too smart", but the fact remains that his throwing motion and ability to make good decisions on the field will be the biggest concerns for his future employer, not whether or not he can do simple math problems quickly.

36, are you thinking of Jason Campbell? He scored a 14 his junior year and a 28 at the combine. Charlie Frye's score also went up by 15 points I believe.

Tough luck for Young even if his score is amended. As they say, perception is reality...

– When I asked Detroit coach Rod Marinelli why the Lions put the franchise tag on left tackle Jeff Backus, Marinelli said it was a no-brainer because Backus is “a tremendous football player.�

MDS: I'm sure you misheard Coach Rod...I'm sure what he said was, "a tremendously sucky player."

Great coverage, gents; please keep up the hard work!

#38, being the fourth and the first qb taken is millions of dollars. ur saying he blew off millions of dollars? the sad part about scoring low on the wonderlic is its like the 40 yard dash, everyone who should be good at it takes it very seriously.

for qbs the wonderlic is just not something u want to bomb unless ur simply too dumb to help it.

Is it just me, or did the University of Texas-Austin run a rather simple offense last year? That doesn't say anything about Young's ability as a QB, but I'm not sure that he will be the kind of guy that you can throw out there immediately in a more complex offense.

I would suspect that Young's agent got worried and started digging.

I have always had my suspicions about the absolute validity of a lot of scored / standardized tests or evaluations. Now, good Wonderlic test scores arent ALWAYS the main indication of a future successful player, but I would think they are worth considering.

How fast will the draftee absorb new information? Can he figure things out for himself or does he have to be led by the nose (desire)? It may not address things like physical courage, throwing distance, leaping height, eyesight, speed.

But it may speak as alluded to above, problem solving ability, ability to adjust to change, spatial cognition, ability to work against a deadline / concentration. Not all of which may be important at all positions. Probably important for a QB tho...

I wouldnt see him drop very far even with a 6/16. A couple of spots maybe. NO, NYJ need a QB and TEN (, OAK, BUF, DET) will need one soon enough. All kinds of teams could be interested in trading up. Most high pick teams need lots of help, not just one player.

Now if Young really has issues about "looking too smart", personally, I'd let him slide.

I'm not really surprised that people who ask a quarterback to press 220 and a lineman to run a 40, are the same people to ask a linebacker how many pages must be in smaller type.

is there any particular reason u dont want to see how fast ur lineman are or how strong ur quarterback is?

"What other Cornell is there?"

There's a Cornell College in Ohio.

As a Colts' fan, I thought the most interesting quote at the combine was Bill Polian saying that the odds of Edgerrin James playing for Indianapolis next year are 50-50. Then I remembered it was Bill Polian and figured that was just his way of saying "none of your bleepin' business."

OTOH, he did admit Vanderjagt is as good as gone, so who knows?

They (team management) might also consider that if a prospect doesnt have the patience to bother with a Wonderlic test, or the ability to even get a decent score then...

a. maybe he wont bother to or be able to comprehend the playbook or the reads

b. maybe he will be too busy spending his signing bonus on extracurricular bling, booze/dope or babes (ref lake minnetonka)

c. maybe he is just in it for the bucks

d. time to generate a low or no bonus and incentive (performance and morals) loaded contract

Pac-man scored a 13...

Madden 2006 players, if you are interested in the Wonderlic, try superstar mode's mini-pseudo Wonderlic test. The best feature of that despereately-needs-more mode.

Cornell College (in Iowa) ROCKS! It's one of the few (1 of 2 when I was deciding on a college) that ran a "one-class-at-a-time" system. You take one course for 4-5 hours a day, for 3 weeks. Then move on to a different class. A Great way to learn.

is vince young illiterate? cuz thats pretty much what u need to get a 6; or truly and sincerely dumb.

:: bob — 2/26/2006 @ 2:50 pm
god, irony is awesome.

slang/abbreviation is different from illiteracy. but thanks for making a useless post.

50/masocc...

Now that's whatcha call IMMERSION TRAINING!

they're welcome to take it anyway they like, but I will point out their inaneness to them.

I believe that's 'inanity.'

Inaneness is a word.

Quick definitions (inane)

adjective: complacently or inanely foolish

http://www.onelook.com/?w=inaneness

I like the comment that the Wonderlic/SAT/other standardized testing is "inherently biased." Of course it is -- toward smart people. If you are not smart you couldn't possibly answer questions that the average person could answer. If you looked at the sample questions that were on ESPN.com you would know that the questions aren't hard.

Now you could argue that getting a low score doesn't mean you're stupid -- more that you've gone to crappy schools where teachers don't care, or education isn't important culturally, or you're a star football player so people have catered to your every need, whatever.

The only thing that comes to mind when I hear "Timmy and Jimmy" is Cripple Fight. By the way, that is a tremendous episode/sequence to watch after the ridiculous fight sequence in "They Live" starring Rowdy Roddy Piper.

And speaking of Timmy (and the Lords of the Underworld), is anyone else hoping some team takes Skyler Green a bit earlier than expected, so they can use the phrase/band name "Reach for the Skyler"?

I too dread bringing back SB officiating discussion. But when Holmgren made his statement/joke about it at the Seattle rally, insightful people noted that he's on the competition committee, and in position to do something about the overall quality of officiating (as well as take the blame when it sucks). You have to wonder what this resignation is about - is it a protest, just getting sick of trying, was he pressured/forced out, or some other possibility? Did anyone ask for details?

I would love to see a Buckeye player go all Rodney Harrison about the "the" level of disrespect. Simply classless, NFL. Have you no shame?

Right. Everyone aboard for the grammar rodeo. Of course inanity is a noun and inaneness is an adjective. That would mean Scott B. is correct.

honestly where is this going? inaneness and inanity are both words, u think ppl who use words shouldn't be taken seriously?

this is getting dumb. please for the love of god just stop taking me seriously instead of giving this place useless posts.

and I apologize in advance but miriam webster considers inaneness to be a noun.

Tom,
I have to take issue with your comment about standardized tests being biased toward "smart people." I have done well on most standardized tests, 1380 SAT, 740 GMAT. I think it means that I'm good at standardized tests, not that I'm "smart". And I guess I would know since I do well on those analogy things.

Really, SATs test you on "how to read and think like guys who went to Ivy League schools." But take the person who scored well on the SAT out of this formalized environment and culture and all bets are off.

Just dont use 'preventative'. Or someone will have to preventate it from happening again.

On a side note, the idea of FO becoming actually knowledgeable and press-qualified makes me happy. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?

Michael David Smith and Aaron Schatz do.

I'm still astounded by the 6 on the wonderlic. That's just...wow. It isn't a hard test.

re 64: I agree completely about standardized tests. Usually, the better you know the format etc the better you do, therefore not necessarily a sign of intelligence. However, it is a good sign of how much a player prepared since we seem to agree that the more familiar one is with how the test is set up the better one is likely to do. So, an athlete getting a bad score can be a sign of lack of preparation which is still a bad sign. However, as per post 35, it looks like we'll have to wait to see if Young's supposed score actually happened.

"Mike Holmgren has long been an influential member of the league�s competition committee. He has just resigned from it. I have no idea if his anger over the officiating in the Super Bowl has anything to do with it, but that�s one logical inference."

You could call that a "logical inference"

You could also call it a "blind guess based on nothing"

If you've got a source that says Holmgren quit because of the Super Bowl officiating, name him. Otherwise this is a garbage statement.

It's great to see FO going out and covering an event, but you've got to do better than idle, unsourced speculation.

Kal,
I thought some of them were already press qualified. I guess those are some of the perks of being affiliated with FoxSports.com, another perk is probably writing an article on the plane and editing it through the night so it can show up fresh in the morning... also spending a weekend in February in Indianapolis watching grown men work out run, lift weights, and get measured by guys in suits...

MdM:

Speaking as someone who sat on committees who create the questions for standardized tests I would like to point out the following:

--analogies are no longer a part of the SAT

(Per the website, Since few students are exposed to analogies in their classrooms, the analogy questions have been replaced with more critical reading passages)

--the Ivy League comment is peculiar because frankly I have no idea what you mean

The Educational Testing Service responds to a market need of colleges and institutions looking for a common reference point between applicants. Different schools have different teaching approaches, different curriculums, possible grade inflation, etc.

Standardized testing ATTEMPTS to assess the results of the educational effort of the applicant without any "noise".

Misinformation or conjecture about the supposed "true" nature of the tests serves no constructive purpose.

I imagine the truth is too boring to be considered real.

Jimmy and Timmy...? dont get it.

Re #68
Bill Polian, who's also a member of the Committee was asked about just that subject when Rich Eisen interviewed him on NFL Network, and I'd imagine it was a subject of discussion around the Combine, as well. Holmgren's stated reasons apparently involve his family and Seahawks-related issues, which are understandable. Still, I think it's perefectly legitimate for MDS to bring it up.

Aaron/MDS:
What were your impressions - if any - of the new head coaches?

While I realize that the combine is a staged event and that it's player-centric and that the level of questions is often routine ("Hey coach, what do you think of player X/Y/Z?"), I'm curious if either of you came away thinking that one of these guys might actually have a clue (or not).

P.S. Did either of you see Dr. Z in Indy? Just curious.

Thank you, NFCCF.

Yes, the test is a "game," in that it can be beaten by logical reasoning...which is precisely what it tests for (ask anyone who's ever worked for Kaplan or PR).

On that note, standardized testing is also the only measurable way that an entity (college, NFL team, whatever) can quantifiably measure potential success. Sure, it's not going to provide an accurate reflection all the time; every metric has its outliers...but in testing measurable intellectual ability and critical thinking, Wonderlic, SAT, GRE, and other standardized tests paint an accurate picture almost every time.

That said, I think that regardless of what the test says about Young's mental prowess, it says volumes about his willingness to prepare, and his reliance only on his physical abilities...because we haven't seen that in other prima donnas; certainly not ones named Keyshawn, Ryan, or Michael-Mike-Ron.

72 -

But Tom, if it was a subject of discussion at the combine - and I don't doubt that it was - talk to some people on the record and tell us what they said. Just taking a guess is weak.

Even with a 16, it would give the opinion that Vince Young absolutely depends on his athletic abilities rather than his thinking abilities. This does not necessarily mean that a GM should not draft him. But a GM and coach should be absolutely aware of what they are getting. They are getting a Mike Vick, a Kordell Stewart type player. A player who shouldn't have 100s of plays to memorize. If you draft Vince Young, you design the plays for him, you don't fit him into your offensive system. Also, because of this, you design plays for the backup qb, or you have a similar qb as the backup, because injury is always a possibility. Its provides for exciting games, though with inconsistent results in the pro game.

I'd also do the contract heavily performance (and perhaps good behavior) laden--which right now isn't a good time, unless a new CBA gets signed. A GM should think long and hard before drafting Vince Young in the top 5, because that pick will force their hands in other ways as well. The investment price may be too high for what is a risky pick. But then, that's probably true of taking Bush with #1. But Bush doesn't run the offense. Don't know what his score on the wonderlic was, but as a RB, he isn't put into question as much for a low score.

– I did get up to Gary Kubiak after his press conference and told him that we had named our player projection system after him, at which point he looked at me like I had three heads.

What was the reason for that, by the way?

– The city of Indianapolis wanted to charge the NFL an absurd amount of money for Internet connections so we’re all going off dial-up. It’s like living in the Stone Age.

Yeah, I heard about this from someone else I know who's at the combine. Matt Miller of nfldraftalmanac. People aren't too pleased about it.

About Vince Young:

Apparently, they screwed it up the first time, and they administered the Wonderlic again, where he did somewhat better. Still not that great, but better than the 6.

The reason the SAT and the Wonderlic are not great tests of inate intelligence and are biased is that you can improve your score with practice. Now tell me, can you make yourself smarter by practicing being more intelligent? Obviously only a little if at all. The bias in the SAT comes in becuase certain test-takers have the benefit of having taken similar tests many times, while other test takers are seeing it for the very first time. These differences are often related to socio-economics.

NFC Central Freak,
I'm sorry, but being an old-timer (31 years old), I guess I'm kind of out of touch on the SAT. I did take the GMAT on the computer, though, that was pretty new-fangled.

I think I understand the motivations behind standarized tests, but the results and the unintended consequences are often different from the intentions. We can trace this all the way back to the first IQ tests for the 1st world war (I think), that "scientifically" proved that Polish people were the stupidest of all American immigrants. I assume you have read up on this history and are aware of it.

Now, you seemed puzzled by my "Ivy League Comment." If you are interested, I suggest you read this article by Malcom Gladwell about Stanley Kaplan. http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_12_17_a_kaplan.htm

an excerpt:
"The S.A.T. was a test devised by a particular institution, by a particular kind of person, operating from a particular mind-set. It had an ideology, and Kaplan realized that anyone who understood that ideology would have a tremendous advantage."

In 2001, the University of California did a study of the predictive value of the SAT, and found it to negligibly add to that found by GPA and achievement tests.

Personally, I find this stuff interesting, and I hope you do since you said that you are part of the process.

#75
I don't think anybody else has anything more than uninformed speculation, and were I an NFL exec or figure, I'd be unwilling to speak on the record about such.

#76
That's why I think Steve McNair is a great comparison as to who VY could become; VY is, I think, more polished than McNair was when he came out of Alcorn State, and better at making pass/run reads than Mac was his first couple years as a pro, but I think the same sort of easing in process would be necessary.

RE: 37

JP Los(t)man scored a 14 his first time. He later cheated and got a pretty high score.

Re #80
Right, the SAT was designed by Ivy League schools to expand their applicant pool beyond the traditional base (see this book for details), and to be able to objectively compare certain aspects of intelligence. And that's what I think what the Wonderlic does; it tests an aspect of intelligence and learning that may not be covered that well in other areas. The variability in scores (Jason Campbell didn't magically get that much smarter) shows that it's not infallible, but is instead a tool that could add to what you know about a prospective draft pick. The reported 6 would thus be notable because it's such an outlier, while a 16 would be much more in range with expectations.

63 - and I apologize in advance but miriam webster considers inaneness to be a noun.

Miriam who?

yah i misspelled it, let the fun begin. misspelling things is probably up there w/ using words like inaneness and abbreviations.

irregardless though I will try to trudge on with actual content.

Kevin Boothe from “Cornell-NY.�

Go Big Red!

Now I'll have to keep track of the draft for sure. I haven't been this excited since Derrick Harmon stepped out of bounds in Super Bowl XIX.

And I see a few people already mentioned the Cornell College in Iowa...

masocc (50) - My son asks what the other one is.

Hey Tom:
"Next time, why don't you do a little research"

"If Leftwich is really lights-out at his workout, the other tools are there. He's not only very intelligent (Leftwich and Palmer had almost identical Wonderlic scores just above 30), he has personality-plus." --Chris Mortensen, 2003

i dont have much of an appetite, thanks

The wonderlic test is just one more way the NFL measures players. You can improve it by practice so a guy who jumps 15 points at least shows a willingness to learn.

NFL teams will look at all the evidence and the smart ones will give by far and away the biggest weight to on field performance.

I think there will be severe doubts about Young now - when he gets to the NFL he's going to be playing against lots of other talaented athletes and he may not have all the tools needed. Whoever drafts him needs to taylor the Offence to his skills - can't see him mastering the WCO for example.

Of course a players ability to visualise the playing field from X and O diagrams doesn't always translate into general intelligence. So I still think Young will go Top 10 but he may slide down a few spots - and at that level he's probably just cost himself millions of bucks.

There is plenty of evidence the Wonderlic is a load of crap. Follow the link to see my blog post about it.

Israel (#87): The jackass in me want to tell you to teach your son how to Google.

Instead, the nice side of my persona will say:

"I've forgotten. It was somewhere in Arizona, I think. Possibly the University of Phoenix, before it became an online education empire. This WAS 1993-ish, after all. Oh, and I also know that quite recently, The University of Montana-Western became the first PUBLIC one-class-at-a-time (or immersion scheduling) university. Finally, that article refers to 3 OCAAT private institutions. I'll leave the rest of the googling up to your son.

Masocc, my son does fine, thank you.
Certainly better than I in that regard.

He had the one in Colorado, but asked since he didn't know if you had another in mind. If yours is from 1993, then that probably tells him it's irrelevant to his current inquiry.

MdM:

I knew Stanley Kaplan. Talked to him many times. Stanley was a smart guy. But more then that he was a GREAT marketer.

Stanley created a program predicated on having folks think he had special insight. And it is certainly possible that in the early stages of standardized testing Stanley did provide the CUSTOMERS (he always called them students which I considered B.S. because these folks were shelling out serious cash) an edge.

Stanley has passed on but the "story" he peddled to get folks to enroll in his program clearly lives on. Though I shouldn't be too surprised. The folks over at Princeton Review love to create an "us vs. them" framework when pushing their products to a public incredibly willing to believe any tall tale.

I know folks want to believe in the great East Coast White Male Conspiracy in action when it comes to these test. But that is so far removed from the truth of the situation as to be more appropriate for readers of National Enquirer then this forum.

Frankly, I am flabbergasted that anyone would still pass around that canard.

At the end of the day if folks can read and think clearly the reading portion of any of these tests will be pretty straightforward. Personally, I think folks get in a tizzy about the tests and fuss is twofold:

--a lot of folks just do NOT have effective reading skills.

--Math freaks people out

So an excuse had to be concocted that would explain why Johnny or Mary didn't get a high score.

It's the SAT that gets all the attention. You rarely hear folks complain about the MCAT. Or GRE. Or GMAT. Or LSAT. Or FMGEMS. Or TOEFL. Need I go on???

And for the record I do NOT get paid for my time.

So the story now is that someone erred in the grading of Young's Wonderlic test? I suppose that's possible (though it seems pretty unlikely). It seems at least as likely, IMO, that the NFL created a cover story (once the score leaked) to allow Vince (and handlers) to save face and reduce the potential for legal action against the league.

Nobody involved benefits from having this sort of thing public. In fact, everyone involved suffers. Young from the perception that he's not smart. Texas from the perception that Young's accademic career was a sham. The NFL from it's failure to keep the results confidential and allegations of biased testing.

I've got no idea what really happened here, but with everyone's interest being served by the new story, I'm a bit skeptical.

Wonder why MDS would assume that King was being completely honest when he claimed not to have Favre's number? Obviously, depending on the context of the conversion, complete disclosure might not have been the best decision.

Re: #92. Looks like your son and I BOTH need to brush up on our Googling skills. Here is the official verdict:

3 Private schools:
1) Cornell College ('OCAAT')
2) Colorado College ('Block Plan')
3) Tusculum College ('Focused Calendar')

1 Public school:
University of Montana-Western

Cornell, by far, has the best reputation of those four, and is in fact quite well respected. Anecdotally, while I ended up choosing NOT to attend there (Iowa + Private school tuition = ugh), I did almost all of my undergrad studies with a grad student that did, and he raved about it.

UMW seems like they're on the right track, though. Then he'd just have to worry about establish residence in *Montana* of all places. Blah.

But alas, it's a private school

Wow.... so much misinformation so little time...

First on Test Bias. Yes standardized test were often thought to be biased in the past, and still are to some degree. One highly reported incident was when the SAT used the anology of Luge is to Sled as blank is to blank. Kids north of the mason dixon obviously did better than the kids that only saw snow on TV. More daming were racial biases. Anyone that has ever tried to read "The Art of War" can attest to the fact that about 40 pages in it's hard to recall all of the names and cities with any kind of detail. All people are better at identifing proper names that they deal with on a more regular basis. When we can easily identify those names, we are better at association of facts and attributes. This helps tremendously on test. These days all of the old paragraphs about Bill and Sara have been at least partially replaced by a much more diverse subset. You might also notice that often in mathmatical word problems names will each start with a different initial. This is especially true for the LSAT. The content of the paragraphs was also altered. Whereas before the paragraph might be a summary of a Mark Twain novel, they now include a more diverse background. This helps balance against schools that were more versed in the novels that were represented on the test. However, for the reasons I'll list below, the Wonderlic has not really been subject to the same kinds of problems.

First the SAT and Wonderlic are not the same beast.

The SAT is a general intelligence exam. It test critical thinking, reading comprehension, mathmatics, vocabulary, ext... The Wonderlic is designed to test the ability to think critically and learn material. It is not an IQ test. If you took two people and taught them the exact same material they would score the same on the SAT, but if person A learned the material in 1 week and person 2 took 4 months, then you would expect person A to score much better on the Wonderlic. The test itself revolves around familar situations. They use things like numbers, days of the week, and coins to set up their test. These are inherently not biased. A question might be something like... "If you are to take a test three days from now, and yesterday was monday, what day of the week will you take the test?" The questions are easy, but require a careful reading and a quick mind.

By the way... I don't have a good list of all players and their scores... but I do recall a few people that have scored incredible poorly on the test recently... ones that stick out are Sean Taylor, Kellen Winslow, PacMan Jones, Michael Bishop, Jeff George, and Sebastian Janikowski. I'll let you look at the list yourself and decide if you think there is a trend. I don't worry as much about their ability to learn the position. I'm more concerned with their ability to become a responsible adult.

Re 79:

Having not taken either the SAT or Wonderlic recently, you are free to take this with a grain of salt, but I did recently retake the LSAT. The first 3 pages (that no one actually reads) actually goes into detail the process for establishing the grading scale and question difficulties. It is a goal of the test administrators to create a test that the same individual will general score in the same score range no matter how many times they take the test. I forget the specifics, but I do recall it being quite accurate. Something like 80+% of all people that retake the test end up in the same score bracket (where a score bracked would be give or take 2% or so).

The Wonderlic has had some high profile improvements on retakes, but I think it might be especially vunerable to improvement. While I think the SAT is not. In order to test critical thinking the Wonderlic relies on reoccuring themes and comparisons. Studying those situations could certainly improve your score. Of course when there are millions of dollars riding on these contracts, and well connected agents willing to go that extra mile... I can think of other ways to improve the scores too.

If we're talking about Vince Young, and I'm an NFL coach/GM, I'm much less concerned about the 6 or 16, and more about the fact that the more you talk with Mr. Young, the more of a risk he seems to be.

His oft-repeated stance of "I think my throwing motion is fine, and I'm not going to listen to any coach that wants to change it" is troublesome - not just because of the throwing motion, but because it exudes a "I know better than any coach" aura, and we know where that kind of thinking can lead (see: Moss, Randy; Johnson, Keyshawn; Owens, Terrell). The fact that Mack Brown has said that he essentially had to stop coaching Young and just "let him play" is another troubling thing - that worked in college, but will it work in the NFL? On the same vein, I wouldn't care about the Wonderlic score itself as much as I'd care that the score shows a complete disdain for coming to the combine prepared.

Young is a tremendous athlete, no one denies that - but it seems to me like he is going to be one of the most "high-risk/high-reward" picks in a while - he'll either manage to set a team up for the long haul, or be a tremendous bust, and I don't really see an in-between for him. I think in one earlier thread it was shown that in the past 10-15 years or so, high-first-round quarterbacks were about 50/50 propositions. I don't see Young as 50/50, maybe 20/80 - the question is whether or not the potential gain from hitting that 20% is worth the 80% chance of striking out.

T.

Tarrant:

I agree. The other thing to realize is that Young didn't throw at the Combine. Neither did Leinart, either, but scouts aren't concerned about Leinart, and they are about Young. Everything about the guy so far has just exuded "I know better than you."

Also, regarding Michael Robinson: I had a post on my blog up about this a while ago, but I cannot figure out what is going on with him. NFL scouts everywhere have said "He's not going to be an NFL quarterback" - so you'd figure hey, that's it, and when you hear that he'd like to be a quarterback, you think he's crazy.

But at the Senior Bowl, coaches were telling him he's a viable quarterback. Coaches - not NFL scouts, coaches - a head coach, an offensive coordinator, and a quarterback coach. I'm missing something. Shouldn't coaches and scouts be on the same page?

I feel bad for Robinson. He's getting advice in two completely different directions from groups of people who should be on the same page. And to be honest, if scouts told me one thing, and coaches another, I think I'd listen to the coaches.

It makes me wonder. If the Titans were to end up picking him up in the draft, what would they do with him?

NFC Central,
thanks for the information. I never used the Kaplan materials, but I did buy a book to study for the GMAT. It helped a lot (I scored 740), but unfortunately I didn't get into Yale like I wanted!

I think things are getting better here in America in regards to standardized tests, but there are still a lot of problems. I know educators like yourself get quite indignant when they are pointed out, but the fact is, nothing would change, and nothing would get better, if they were not.

You said you didn't understand my comment about learning how to think like Ivy-Leaguers, but it seems you were aware of this line of thinking after all. If people don't like an idea, they label it--"East-coast white male conspiracy". As an educator, you know that labels have power. But the simple fact is, whether or not the bias toward those types was intentional, has nothing to do with whether it existed (or exists).

I am not an educator in the classic sense of the word. I worked in the public and private sector for over 40 years but never as a certified teacher or professor.

And I certainly wouldn't label me as indignant. What I find disappointing is that allegedly informed folks like yourself and Playit are propagating a myth developed by someone to market a PRODUCT. You are an unwitting advertising vehicle for the test preparation services.

Finally, I responded as I did after someone else explained to me what you might be suggesting. I try mightily to avoid assuming what another is thinking, but it has since become clear that folks persist in believing that standardized tests are developed to "help" a precious few at the expense of the many.

This is akin to parents who refuse to have their children vaccinated out of a fear of autism. It's pure conjecture, there is no science to support this belief, and yet hundreds of children go untreated because their parents have allowed common sense to be set by the side of the road for no good purpose.

Irrational and stupid behavior has always been a puzzle to me. Maybe some day I will learn enough to understand why folks prefer nonsense to facts.

Re Aaron's "what other Cornell is there?" I haven't read the whole thread yet, but there's a Cornell College in Iowa, and they do have a Division III team, although they only won two this season.

Aaron,

Seeing as how FO is generally considered front-and-center at the burgeoning statistical evolution of football analysis, did you receive a typically warm welcome in Indy? Were you ever greeted with disdain and contempt from anybody (agents, coaches, players, other writers, etc.)?

I’ve noticed that there hasn’t been a decidedly public and virulent backlash against what you guys are doing vis-à-vis your baseball counterparts. Aside from the thorn-in-the-side of the Mike Vick issue (i.e. hype/perceived greatness vs. productivity) I haven’t noticed much negative mainstream press other than the typical homer fodder of “my team isn’t ranked high enough�.

It’s strange; you’d think that a sport like football that deals with more anecdotal metrics and measurements (due to its decidedly team-oriented nature) would bristle at the statistical evolution more so than a stat-obsessed sport like baseball.

Basically, what kind of feedback did you guys receive?

Re: block schedule schools- Colorado College is also a highly regarded institution... and a NCAA Hockey powerhouse.

Re: Test score bias- All standardized tests can be improved on with practice. I bumped my GRE scores up 200+ points by retaking them after buying a book and practising a bit (I stupidly took it the first time with no preperation). Like others have said, scoring the 6 is more disturbing because it shows VY didn't care enough to try to prepare for it. A 16 probably doesn't give you that worry, especially if he has dyslexia, as that would complicate his performance on a written exam (but not necessarily reading defenses, playbook diagrams, etc.).

Well crap. I don't come on FO for a few days and find out you guys came to Indy. If I would have known, you could have used my fast net...I work about 3 blocks from the Dome.

Nice recap, it's interesting that the local media doesn't cover this event AT ALL.

Great thread. What would concern me most about Young's score is that it may indicate a reluctance to prepare, and as Bobby Knight's (a tremendous coach if a flawed human being) cliche says, the will to win is quite common, but the will to prepare to win is very, very, rare. Maybe Young didn't see preparing for the Wonderlic as being part of the process of winning, but with millions on the line, I would find this a somewhat strange stance to take.

NFCCF, I am regularly surprised as to how poorly people read, even people with advanced degrees, so I concur with a lot of your remarks. Boy, this little brouhaha doesn't do much for the reputation of the University of Texas, does it? I mean, if this Wonderlic score is truly indicative of Young's reading ability, assuming he isn't dyslexic, it really raises a question as to how he was able to remain eligible.

The Wonderlic doesn't even contain difficult math. Most of it is relatively simple, elementary school math. There's just a lot of it in a short time. Having taken a couple mock Wonderlics I've seen, it's really about being able to think quickly, and unfortunately, practice does help improve scores, I would say, so it isn't always a true reflection of innate reasoning skills.

Draftees who are used to doing such calculations would score better than those who don't. There's probably a mild correlation with learning ability and reasoning ability. Those are obviously important to those who are planning to play in the pro game. It's obviously a thinking man's game, however Joey Porter dissembles otherwise.

Like NFCCF says, most people are pretty sensitive when it comes to grading their intelligence. The Wonderlic is just as important as say, 40 speed, and just as flawed in some ways, but it does give a general idea of a draftee's reasoning skills. But people had no trouble ripping Maurice Clarett for being as slow as molasses last year at the combine. But if Vince Young can't make change for a dollar, it's because the test is flawed.

PFW is floating the balloon that Vince will drop to #7 and become a Raider.

Is anyone watching the combine now? I know Vernon Davis ran a 4.37 40. Does anyone have the other info, like height, weight, etc.?

Click my name to link to a story on Young's Wonderlic score, which is actually a 16 and not a 6.

A 16 is still pretty bad. Accordingly I've downgraded my reaction to Young's score from "Jesus F-ing Christ" to just "Good God Almighty"

I did not read all the posts, sorry i was laughing so hard I started to cry about half way through the thread and posts. But here is my take on the Wonderlic (IQ) test. I think that for a Qb it is very important for them to score at about the average level. think about this, todays QB has alot comming at them. At any given time they have to know the routes, blocking schemes, and pass protection provided by everyone on approx. 100 plays. that is why they have the QB wrist pad. But it is not just that, you can have all the skills in the world, but if you are not smart enough to put 2 and 2 toghether and realize that a 300 lb gorrila in the form of a DE or DT is coming at you from your backside you are going to get hurt. That is why I think that GM and Head Coaches put so much on the Wonderlic test for a QB.

On the other hand Vince Young may not have really cared, but like an earlier poast pointed out the difference between a number 1 QB drafted and the fourth overall QB drafted will be millions of dollars and I don't think that the Prima Dona in Vince Young could possibly settle for that. :-)

"It makes me wonder. If the Titans were to end up picking him up in the draft, what would they do with him?"

Vince, this is Drew. Drew, Vince. Now line up and go deep.

82: Sid, cheating is a serious charge. Care to substantiate it?

MSNBC link says 6 wasnt his first score. And that he retook the test and got a 16. Still not so hot. Report also doesnt say what Vince scored the first time. Doublespeak.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11590315/

TomG:

As a "quant" guy who is also a baseball fan, my personal opinion is that the "hostility" to the analytical community has LESS to do with the information provided and MORE to do with how it is DELIVERED.

What I am trying to write is that the folks who decided to sit down and study the game of baseball would deliver their findings in a package surrounded by sarcasm.

Not all of them. And not all the time. But certainly enough of them.

And then the situation was compounded by NON stats folks making snarky comments in public forums about how "dumb" baseball clubs were in not accepting the "new truths". Notable example would be Rob Neyer at ESPN. Rob Neyer doesn't know an F-test from his flannel shirt. But Neyer writes many a post explaining why so much of baseball is poorly run because of its unwillingness to use the metrics devised by the new breed.

I think Aaron's approach is much more grounded and relaxed. And as such folks will focus on the MESSAGE instead of the MESSENGER.

Just my 3 and 1/2 cents.

RE: 117

Amen. You hit the Nail on the Head with that one. I have not personally met Aaron or anyone else from FO yet. If they ever come out here to sunny California (BTW I am buried in almost 5 feet of snow where I live) I will try and meet them, however it always seems that they are calm, cool and deliever in a not so in your face style that everyone can swallow.

The fact that Mack Brown has said that he essentially had to stop coaching Young and just “let him play� is another troubling thing - that worked in college, but will it work in the NFL?
I would have to say NO. even the best athlete when they step up to the Pro System has to have a willingness to learn. wether it be a new Offensive system or a new and perhaps better way to throw the ball and say maybe make yourself more accurate and perhaps save some of that arm for your later years in the league.

I think that Vince Yooung's Prima Donna Attitude may have hurt him more than any IQ/SAT?Wonderlic Score could have.

Jeez even TO kept his mouth shut before he got drafted. Maybe it is just a sign of the times that this generation of Football Players are willing to use thier mouth instaed of thier brain and talent. VY has not even thrown one NFL pass yet and he thinks he is the bomb. God I can't wait for pre-season now!!!
didn't anyone learn from the Alex Smith debacle of last year?

NFCCF,

I think that's the exact reason why any kind of statistical advancement in sports faces an automatic uphill battle. Thanks to the more stat-oriented writers and their tendency to condescend towards the average fan, guys like Aaron are presumably put on the defensive almost like they have to explain to the casual reader/football fan that they're not selling you something but rather providing a unique perspective. It seems like baseball has tainted this kind of perspective and perverted it into an "us-vs.-them" dichotomy. (Of course it doesn't help when the contrarians are equally virulent in their ways.)

A lot of the success of FO does have to do with the pressure-free and open way they presents things, but I was kind of curious if there was some kind of spillover bias towards numbers-oriented analyses.

Interesting rumors from SI regarding the Wonderlic and who might be trying to trade up to #1 are in the link via my name.

TomG, I'm not going to touch that one, except to say that I don't agree with you.

Then again, I've been accused as being arrogant and condescending in other places...

RE: 111

It's pretty clear that he did get a 6 the first time around, but it was said it was scored incorrectly so he took it again. The question is, why didn't they just rescore it instead of letting him take it again?

Also, does anyone have the numbers for Orien Harris or Vernon Davis?

From another article (linked):

"This article presents empirical evidence that within the modern draft era, there exists no statistically significant relationship between intelligence and quarterback performance at either the collegiate or professional level. Likewise, more intelligent quarterbacks are neither selected earlier nor compensated more for their mental abilities. Since no statistically significant relationship exists between tested intelligence and performance within the data examined in this study, NFL franchises might better utilize resources by focusing on other aspects of quarterback evaluation."

jeff I think thats because the upper ends dont mean much at all. ie a 30 and a 40 there is no difference, afterall football is largely physical...

but the lower end? I think that's where people worry. vick was able to get a 20 but he has long and documented problems with his offense. u just gotta wonder how simple will an offense have to become to satisfy a 6(16 is better, but on a retake)! how many plays can u add week to week if ur qb has very low learning retention?

I think coordinators are wanting to continually make nfl offenses more complex it would be a detriment if ur qb couldn't handle the load.

RE: 115

We went through this last year, if I remember correctly.

According to Todd McShay, Cutler scored a 29 before the combine and Leinart got a 35 at the combine.

NFCCentral,
thanks for the candid point of view. I did not mean to suggest that some elite junta creates these tests with a malicious intent to give unfair advantage to their own kind. But this bias has existed and no doubt will until it is ruthlessly stamped out by people like yourself to level the playing field. As my first example, the WWI IQ test, I don't think the testers started out with the intent of humiliating Polish immigrants.

You may consider Stanley Kaplan's story to be a cynical and commercial myth, but that hardly excuses the educational system for the incredible amount of talent that it has ignored over the years. It seems that academia bristles whenever it is called on the table for problems in its systems, and wants to label its critics irrational conspiracy-mongers--in other words, resorts to name-calling instead of taking a look in the mirror.

Anyway, back OT, I beat my brother at every standardized test we took, and he beat me at every sport we played, despite having similiar physical characteristics. Actually, I did beat him in track/CC...but there's not much thinking there.

124: I don't recall your making a cheating allegation last year, however.

#122:

The collegiate performance doesn't surprise me at all - he's using the NCAA's quarterback rating. There's so much noise in that rating that I would've been surprised if he had found something.

The future compensation thing is silly - he's comparing it to rookie first year salary, which is essentially capped nowadays. This is even noted in the article, with a hand-waving explanation as to why it's not that big a deal. ("indicates a team's willingness..." - no, it doesn't. Rookie first year salary is pretty much just given by their draft position, and Wonderlic score doesn't have the lever arm to change that significantly) What you should be looking for is a correlation between score and something like average future salary, but even that's a little difficult given the fact that you've only got 84 quarterbacks.

I mean, it's an interesting study, but the conclusion is far too strong for what's been done. The statistics just aren't there to investigate anything but the grossest of correlations.

Or they wont gladly take on learning more plays if they dont feel motivated to do so, bob...

Also, a lot of draftees are admittedly taken due to physical skills demonstrated, explosiveness, raw speed and strength. That doesnt mean that they always demonstrate such in the NFL (the game IS faster) and also get results that way. And it doesnt mean that they are still playing in 5 years.

More intelligence (and motivation) may not help in simple drills.

I bet it helps in picking up a new and more complex offense, and in checking in and out of plays at the line and over to secondary receivers.

And career longevity.

Random comment on the Czar article:
A lot of teams were hoping that LSU running back Joseph Addai might slip to the third or fourth round, but that won't happen now after he ran a 4.37 40-yard dash on Saturday. ...

This type of thinking drives me nuts about the NFL draft. If you think a player is going to be a player, than draft him with your 2nd round pick.

This also demonstrates the chaos of the NFL draft. 32 different teams drafting for 10 different positions, not all using the same strategy (best player available, linemen in the later rounds, fastest player available, productivity vs. workouts).

Thanks Sid for Cutler-Leinart Wonderlic scores.

I don't follow baseball, but could it be that baseball stats measurement isn't as controversial? According to this website the top WR was Steve Smith and top RB was Larry Johnson. I think football is also more team oriented, and can be a little more subjective in judging how a team is playing. One other thing... DVOA had rated the Redskins higher than their record toward this mid-season, but I don't remember any of the FO staff saying, "Watch out for those Redskins..." in fact during the WWF inspired Scramble they were given a weak shot at the playoffs. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe you guys don't cling to your stats as much... the Tampa Bay PFP 2005 article sticks out at me as well. I say this without knowing anything about Baseball Prospectus, just being a casual baseball fan. I used to enjoy reading Neyer's ESPN articles, until they went under Insider. Also, isn't OPS used during some of the baseball broadcasts now? Is that like seeing DVOA showing up in 5 years on Football broadcasts? (Which I don't consider being too far fetched since FoxSports.com picked you guys up and seems happy enough with your work).

– Matt Leinart was adamant that he wouldn’t mind playing in New Orleans. “If I were to go to the Saints it would be an honor,� he said.

What does playing for the Saints have to do with playing in New Orleans?

Re: 130
This type of thinking drives me nuts about the NFL draft. If you think a player is going to be a player, than draft him with your 2nd round pick.
There's an opportunity cost there. If you want two players, you pick the one that you know won't last until your next pick. Otherwise, you won't get both.
If someone was hoping that Addai might be a cheap fix for their 3rd most important problem (say), then this is important.

David: Oh, c'mon, be fair. The NFL and the people in New Orleans are doing a whole heckuva lot so that the Saints can play in New Orleans next year. Now, their future - that's another story - but at least next year they'll be in New Orleans full time.

I've heard that Cornell University is not 100% Ivy, and that the portion of the school that is not Ivy is actually a public school. So, perhaps, NY-Cornell (though you did say Cornell-NY), like Texas-Austin is just a reference to a public school that needs further specification in its name. (NY-Plattsburgh might be another example.)

The link in my name has a list of QB wonderlic scores from the last 20 years. Although there are some qualifiers as to the accuracy of the listings, here are some notables:

McNabb - 16
Culpepper - 21, 18, 15
McNair - 15
Marino - 14
Cunningham - 15

So if the 16 and not the 6 is correct, maybe Young's not in the worst company.

"I’ve also had it pointed out to me that Vince Young is associated with some, shall we say, unpleasant elements of the Houston community."

- Aaron
No offense but maybe you should stick with statistics more than gossip. Statistics suit you better and this isn't a STAR column. To assume Vince didn't care enough to take the Wonderlic serious is highly misguided along with hanging some prima donna label on him. The guy is a class act and has been nothing short of a model citizen his whole college career. VY has been a team leader that taught his coach how to relax and enjoy the game and has half the attitude of Hollywood Matt. Sounds like Agents in the ears of Scouts looking to push guys down the board. It seems like every year at the combine someone everybody over hypes ends up being torn down and turned into the "Angel Fallen From Grace". Rumors, knocks, etc. abound then after the draft everybody forgets all the hype and rumors and goes back to the boring job of evaluating on the the field production.

Did Culpepper's scores go up or down over time?

None of those 5 won a super bowl...

133: Wow, that managed to miss me completely; I thought the Saints were still in limbo. Apologies for vastly excessive snark.

Story's here. It was announced at the Super Bowl - the first game will be Sept. 24th. They'll play their first two games on the road - which will probably suck a little, but hey, I'm sure the players who are still there from last year will appreciate 8 real home games and gladly suffer 2 away games at the start of the season.

And honestly, I can't imagine that the home crowd won't be insane that first game.

I would just like to say that it was great to see Aaron and Will out here in Indy. They took the time to talk to about two of us who were interested in football and five who were there to talk Baseball. That they were there for around five hours exceeded any expectations I had.

Oh, and if you want to talk about something besides sports - these guys know what's going on in music. I was surprised that they knew about Mogwai, The Jicks, etc.

If you get a chance to meet them, it's well worth the time.

See my link for a quick explanation of the difference between the Ivy Version of Cornell and the state-assisted version in the same location.

#141: The Ivy League is just a sports league, like the ACC, Big 10 or Big East.
There is no split in Cornell, where some student-athletes play in the Ivy League and others play in another conference, like the SEC.
Cornell is made up of several different colleges, but all of its sports teams play in the Ivy League.

Linked in my name are the 2005 Wonderlic results, courtesy of PFW. It says some guard named Willie McNeill scored a 0.

It also says that the backup center for the Panthers scored a 47, which is pretty damn respectable.

Jimmy and Timmy... is that a reference to the Crips (which they thought was a gang for crippled people)?

Regarding the supposed arrogance of the baseball stats guys, a large part of that is because it was necessary to be a little, shall we say, extreme, just to even get on the radar. Just to get noticed it was necessary to be a little over the top. Most have toned it down since the "movement" has gained mainstream exposure, though there always exceptions. Of course, it doesn't help when the opposition consists of people like Joe Morgan and John Kruk, who are just as bad as the extremist stats guys.

I also believe that it has been easier for the Aaron and the rest of the FO guys to be less abrasive precisely because of the baseball sabermetric movement. That "movement" has opened the gates and have made more people more accepting of the same kind of thinking applied to a different sport.

One other thing.

There are plenty of baseball people who are able to look at all aspects, both sabermetrics and the more traditional scouting methods. Check out John Sickels' blog. It's one of the best out there regarding minor league baseball and baseball prospects. Sickels used to have a column at ESPN.

Sickels does a very good job balancing all aspects of player evaluation, and does so in a very non-condescending way

Holmgren's move

Seattle Seahawks coach Mike Holmgren has told the competition committee that he intends to step down from the committee.

Two prominent committee members, Atlanta Falcons general manager Rich McKay and Indianapolis Colts president Bill Polian, said Holmgren's decision had nothing to do with his criticism of the officiating this year.

Holmgren said he erred in November when he released information from an NFL memo that officials made two incorrect calls in the Seahawks' game against the New York Giants. After the Super Bowl, Holmgren again questioned several calls in the 21-10 loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers.

"I think Mike works hard and has a lot of responsibilities," McKay said. "They went to the Super Bowl this year, and I think he needs a little time off. I didn't think it was driven by the calls on Super Bowl Sunday, I really didn't."

Polian agreed and said he hoped Holmgren would change his mind before the committee meets again March 9 in Naples, Fla.

From FOX's article about the #1 pick.

Part of the reason the Texans are hesitant about selecting Young is they are concerned about the crowd he runs with. He's not Allen Iverson, but there are some in his inner circle that could drag him down, a fact that would be made worse as a young man with plenty of $$$ living in his hometown. Houston would be doing him a favor by not selecting him and allowing him to get as far from H-Town as possible.

His g/f is smoking hot, though. She gives Beyonce a run for her money.....

#149: Brandon, your comment is useless without a link to pics :D

Re #122 - the study would be more interesting if it correlated NFL QB performance AFTER the rookie year with intelligence (or at least Wonderlic scores). Presumably, the ability to learn would become more important as years go by as certain physical attributes such as speed and agility decline with aging and injury. By looking predominantly at QBs since 1999 and only at rookie NFL performance, the study is limited to a very small set of performance. For example, Culpepper, Vick, and Palmer all played very sparingly as rookies. Kyle Orton played a lot.

MRH: It's not even interested in looking at performance in the NFL, just salary levels. Which is why it's silly - rookie year salary levels are determined by draft position, and I don't think anyone was foolish enough to say that Wonderlic scores are going to have noticeable control on a draft position.

At least, not with only 84 samples. One big problem with sample-size limited studies like this is they often don't quote what size effect they would've been able to see. He certainly wouldn't've been able to see a 5% effect, for instance. That's why the conclusion is so much stronger than you can reasonably make.

Re 140: amen to that. One negative to losing the combine would be losing an extra chance per year to pick some of the Outsiders' brains ...

Re 130: Seeing OPS is great, but DVOA would be a step beyond that. Both on-base percentage and slugging percentage can be calculated "easily" from stats available in box scores these days, and OPS is simply addition. I think a better baseball analogy would be showing in-season RC/27 (runs created per 27 outs) or talking about Win Shares from past seasons.

RE #111, 122

Vernon Davis is 6' 3 3/4", 254 lbs.

And he ran a 4.38 40.

Pat (#139):

South Louisiana will be crazy that weekend because the night before is the Tulane/LSU game at Death Valley followed by the Saints/Falcons in the Dome the next day. As a Tulane grad who is a Saints fan from birth and currently living in NOLA, I don't think that I want to know what my BAC will be by the end of the weekend.

Joe Theismann is being interviewed by Dan Patrick right now and he's saying how the Wonderlic means very little, etc.
I'm not saying whether I agree with him or not, but Joe:
Just because you couldn't get any of the questions right doesn't mean there is something wrong with the test.

My high school had a "block system" - and a nationally recognized program for dyslexic students. There was no such thing as ADD back in the day, but, had there been, my best friend - severely dyslexic - would certainly have been diagnosed with it. He went into high school nearly illiterate and hugely disruptive. He came out the other side a devoted reader and learner and now runs his own business. So, in conclusion, block systems do not inherently discriminate against learning disabilities. Of course, such schools need programs in place to help the students actually get somethng out of it.

Speaking of the Wonderlic, Pats bust Andy Katzenmoyer scored a 26 despite it being obvious to all (well, to me) that the guy had zero commitment to learning. If it is clear that a college player isn't getting better, then don't draft him.

A work friend stationed near Houston confirmed to me that Wonderlic Vince runs with a questionable crowd. It's in the news down thataway.

Makes sense that such a crowd would influence him to hire a non-agent to be his agent, after which said non-agent fails to adequately train/inform WV to handle the Wonderlic test. And who knows what else...

Smells like a Raider pick at #7.

A work friend stationed near Houston confirmed to me that Wonderlic Vince runs with a questionable crowd.

It's good to know that work friends in Houston are on the pulse of all things Vince Young. Name me one kid who's come out of the projects or poverty and hasn't been "associated" with gang memebers and I'll show you a kid who isn't from the slums. Where do you think this kid came from, Beverly Hills? Why is everyone so quick to tear this guy down? He was the toast of football a month ago and now he's been runover at every turn. I live 45 minutes from Austin and I've lived in Houston and I've never heard one thing about this guy other than what a good guy he is.

That quote from Marinelli about hand speed being the most important trait for a defensive lineman... it's all too true (although I'm sure you'll take his word for it over mine ;)). I was at a coaching conference in the UK a few years ago and one of the guest speakers was Jim Tomsula, then D-Line coach of the Scottish Claymores and now Head Coach of the Rhein Fire. After a loooonnnggg pre-amble about his life, childhood, coaching history and other assorted fluff, when he finally got on to football and his speciality, defensive line, he was very informative and demonstrated great passion. He too took great pains to stress the importance of hand speed, liking it to the moves of a martial artist, and his demonstration of those techniques went a long way to convincing me of their importance and ensured I've always watched this closely when assessing defensive lineman...