Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

Most Recent FO Features

BrownMal15.jpg

» Futures: Texas RB Malcolm Brown

DeMarco Murray is the toast of the NFL, but injury and team issues clouded some observers' view of his talent. Texas RB Malcolm Brown might have the same problem this winter. 

09 Mar 2012

Wisdom of Crowds Review: QBs and RBs

by Danny Tuccitto

As much as we love our KUBIAK fantasy projection system, there's still plenty of randomness to make the entire endeavor an inexact science. Imagine if your Week 1 starting fantasy football lineup was Michael Vick, Chris Johnson, Peyton Hillis, Santonio Holmes, Anquan Boldin, Dallas Clark, Adam Vinatieri, and Eagles defense/special teams. In early September, you were feeling reasonably comfortable with that lineup. By the time early December rolled around, you had probably been eagerly anticipating your league's Toilet Bowl for over a month.

It's for this very reason that consulting the wisdom of crowds can be so useful in the context of fantasy football. Diverse, independent estimates aggregated across members of a group are often more accurate than the estimate of any individual person. In the case of our Wisdom of Crowds feature, our Twitter following is the group providing the estimates, and I'm the aggregator.

If you're unfamiliar with the process, or weren't around for the preseason posts last August, you can catch up with everything here, here, here, here, and here.

Today, we'll review how accurate the crowd's wisdom was in 2011 with respect to quarterbacks and running backs. Next week, we'll do the same for wide receivers. For each player that was submitted to the crowd, I'll list his projected performance estimate (with error range) and his actual performance. If a player missed games, I'll also list his performance prorated to a 16-game season. (Remember that the Wisdom of Crowds projections were supposed to assume the player was healthy for the season, estimating quality and workload instead of the likelihood of injury.)

Accuracy details are to follow, but I just have to say up front that, as a Wisdom of Crowds rookie this year, I was somewhat surprised at how prescient the projections turned out to be. Of 75 total sets of player statistics, crowd estimates landed within the error range 21 times, and there were at least another 14 near misses. I'm not sure how that compares to previous seasons (since I just took over doing WoC this year), but it's definitely impressive to me.

Quarterbacks

Kevin Kolb

Projected: 3,358 ± 110 passing yards, 21 ± 1 TDs, 17 ± 1 INTs
Actual: 1,955 passing yards, 9 TDs, 8 INTs
Prorated: 3,475 passing yards, 16 TDs, 14 INTs

Kolb is the first of several players we'll review who would have reached or exceeded his Wisdom of Crowds projection if not for injuries. In Kolb's case, turf toe stole four games in the middle of his season, and an early concussion during Week 14 ended it. The result is a perception that he woefully underachieved during his first (and possibly last) season in Arizona. I wouldn't blame any Kolb owners if they believed that. However, over the nine games he did play, Kolb was on pace to beat his yardage and interception projections, and fall just short of his touchdown projection. If we put aside the one-pass-and-done game against San Francisco, his prorated stat line rises to 3906-18-16. That would have made him the 17th-best fantasy quarterback rather than 30th-best.

Going forward, Kolb's future is unclear. On one hand, he improved his net yards per attempt (yards per attempt after adjusting for sacks and sack yardage) from 5.7 over four years with the Eagles to 6.1 in 2011. In addition, his interception rate fell from 4.4 percent to 3.2 percent, which is much closer to the 3.0-percent league average over the past few years. On the other hand, one of his major limitations is that he takes too many sacks (10.4-percent sack rate in 2011; 8.0 percent career), which doesn't bode well for a quarterback who has suffered two concussions in two seasons. There's also, of course, the looming possibility that the Cardinals will jettison him in favor of Peyton Manning.

Tarvaris Jackson

Projected: 2,937 ± 141 passing yards, 17 ± 1 TDs, 18 ± 2 INTs
Actual: 3,091 passing yards, 14 TDs, 13 INTs
Prorated: 3,297 passing yards, 14 TDs, 13 INTs

Speaking of possible Manning destinations, Jackson ended up throwing for more yards and fewer interceptions than the crowd projected, although he did undershoot his touchdown target. That last outcome was somewhat surprising. It's likely the result of a revolving-door receiving corps, the Seahawks not being as bad a team as anticipated, and Marshawn Lynch exceeding expectations -- more on him later.

The future for Jackson doesn't appear to be as bright in Seattle as it could be for Kolb in Arizona. He did bring his interception rate down from 3.6 percent with Minnesota to a league-average 2.9 percent with Seattle. However, he also had an 8.5 percent sack rate -- up from 7.2 percent in Minnesota -- and ended up tied with Blaine Gabbert for the league lead in sack yards (243). Not surprisingly, then, he only threw for 5.7 net yards per attempt, which was identical to what he posted during his time with the Vikings. Essentially, Jackson appears to be a known (mediocre) quantity at this point, so it makes more sense for Seattle to take a flier on an unknown quantity like Manning than it does for Arizona.

Donovan McNabb

Projected: 3,305 ± 130 passing yards, 20 ± 1 TDs, 14 ± 1 INTs
Actual: 1,026 passing yards, 4 TDs, 2 INTs
Prorated: 2,736 passing yards, 10 TDs, 5 INTs

On the positive side, there's McNabb's 2.0 touchdown-to-interception ratio in 2011. On the negative side, there's pretty much everything else. Not that McNabb has much of a future in the NFL at this point, but I'll note that his 5.3 net yards per attempt this season was the lowest since his first full season as a starter in 2000. As we often say with aging stars, their careers tend to end abruptly and with little warning. It's tough to predict when their production will nosedive, but, when it happens, retirement is soon to follow.

One lesson fantasy owners can take away from the McNabb saga is that "likelihood of being benched" is a factor that should never be underestimated when projecting 30-something starting quarterbacks on bad teams, especially when there's a youngster waiting in the wings. I mean, in retrospect, everyone should have seen this one coming, right? Potential drafters of Matt Hasselbeck next season should be aware of this.

Andy Dalton

Projected: 2,740 ± 131 passing yards, 14 ± 1 TDs, 19 ± 2 INTs
Actual: 3,398 passing yards, 20 TDs, 13 INTs

Whereas the Lewin Career Forecast (LCF) v2.0 was bullish on Dalton over a five-year time horizon, and KUBIAK viewed him more favorably than most projection systems in 2011, the crowd's enthusiasm was lukewarm at best. Given the problems rookie quarterbacks have historically had in their first season, it's no real surprise that the crowd didn't back Dalton. If only our countervailing evidence back then was as strong as it is now.

By all measures, Dalton exceeded expectations last season. With respect to the crowd, he easily beat his yardage, touchdown, and interception projections. KUBIAK predicted 181 fantasy points, and he ended up scoring 211. To boot, the 807 DYAR he produced in his rookie year bodes well for the 1,616 DYAR that LCF projects in years three to five. However, it must be said that both Sam Bradford and fellow-LCF-darling Colt McCoy regressed in their sophomore NFL seasons, so fantasy owners should remain somewhat cautious about Dalton heading into 2012. Of course, neither of those guys had a receiver remotely as talented as A.J. Green -- more on him next week -- running routes for them.

Josh Freeman

Projected: 3,708 ± 113 passing yards, 25 ± 1 TDs, 13 ± 1 INTs
Actual: 3,592 passing yards, 16 TDs, 22 INTs
Prorated: 3,831 passing yards, 17 TDs, 23 INTs

When you look at Freeman's 2011 season, there's a clear dichotomy between what his fantasy point total says, and what his advanced metrics say. His net yards per attempt dropped from 6.5 in 2010 to 5.9 last year, his DVOA ranking fell from 10th to 29th, and his DYAR ranking dropped from ninth to 28th. In fact, he was 901 DYAR less valuable in 2011 despite having 107 more pass plays than 2010.

On the flip side, though, his prorated stat line still ranked him 14th in fantasy points among quarterbacks after ranking seventh in 2010. Not to mention that the crowd basically nailed Freeman's yardage total.

It's no mystery what happened to Freeman: lots and lots and lots of interceptions. More precisely, his interception rate skyrocketed from an unsustainable 1.3 percent to a higher-than-league-average 4.0 percent.

Colt McCoy

Projected: 3,359 ± 162 passing yards, 19 ± 2 TDs, 13 ± 2 INTs
Actual: 2,733 passing yards, 14 TDs, 11 INTs
Prorated: 3,363 passing yards, 17 TDs, 13 INTs

From the afterlife, Sir Francis Galton tips his hat to everyone who participated in McCoy's projection. While putting this piece together, I wasn't expecting to see any of these eerily clairvoyant results, so I'm just too weirded out to offer anything in the way of analysis. Let's just move on to running backs.

Running Backs

Knowshon Moreno

Projected: 249 ± 22 carries, 985 ± 98 yards, 7 ± 2 TDs
Actual: 37 carries, 179 yards, 0 TDs
Prorated: 74 carries, 358 yards, 0 TDs

If we could only go back in time to that fateful August day, and tweet "Willis McGahee" instead of "Knowshon Moreno," the crowd's projection would have been McCoy-esque. Then again, maybe tempting fate like that would have just led to McGahee pulling a hamstring in Week 1 and tearing his ACL in Week 10. The Gods do have a sick sense of humor sometimes.

To put Moreno's underachievement into perspective, consider that 249 projected carries translates to 15.6 per game. Moreno didn't have a single game with that many carries, and only had double-digit carries once. Despite playing eight games, he didn't even reach the worst-case scenario projection of 150 carries, 600 yards, and 3 TDs.

Note to self: When a smallish running back has a bad speed score (96.9), an injury history, and a backfield mate likely to vulture carries and touchdowns, stay away from him in your fantasy draft.

Felix Jones

Projected: 233 ± 14 carries, 1,005 ± 68 yards, 7 ± 1 TDs
Actual: 127 carries, 575 yards, 1 TDs
Prorated: 169 carries, 766 yards, 1 TDs

Jones' 2011 season provided further evidence busting the myth that a starter can't lose his job to injury -- not that any more was necessary, of course. With that said, mitigating circumstances make this projection less awful than it seems. First, at the time we tweeted Jones' name, DeMarco Murray was known only as a rookie with an injured hamstring. Granted, his 112.6 speed score suggested the existence of athletic talent, but there was little reason in August to think Jones would have major competition for carries in 2011. Second, after Murray broke his leg, a fully healed Jones had consecutive 100-yard rushing days, so it's not like he was a monumental fantasy bust, ala Moreno.

The Cowboys have said that Murray is their feature back going forward, and Jones will be relegated to third-down duty. As we said back in August, Jason Garrett is a fan of the workhorse, so Dallas' proclamation is probably not media shenanigans. With his performance after Murray's injury, and the fact his yards per carry actually increased in an otherwise forgettable year, Jones is well within the borders of handcuff territory for 2012.

Beanie Wells

Projected: 223 ± 20 carries, 901 ± 84 yards, 7 ± 2 TDs
Actual: 245 carries, 1,047 yards, 10 TDs
Prorated: 261 carries, 1,116 yards, 10 TDs

Across the board, the crowd was pretty darn close on this one. In August, I was skeptical because Wells was an injury-prone underachiever to that point, and the Cardinals had just drafted a potential replacement, Ryan Williams, in the second round. Naturally, the day after I wrote that, Williams tore up his knee and was lost for the entire 2011 season. With backs, opportunity counts as much as anything, and Wells took advantage of his.

There is one mounting concern about Wells' future: it resides between his right thigh and right shin. For the better part of two years, he's been running on a balky right knee that required a second surgery earlier this offseason. Therefore, I'm still not sold on Wells; even less so as a long-term option in keeper formats.

Mark Ingram

Projected: 209 ± 16 carries, 903 ± 74 yards, 8 ± 2 TDs
Actual: 122 carries, 474 yards, 5 TDs
Prorated: 195 carries, 758 yards, 8 TDs

You guys came about 70 yards short of nailing this projection too. To me, what's amazing is that the projection was this accurate despite the enigmatic nature of New Orleans' backfield rotation. Darren Sproles' touches were a given on a weekly basis, but touches for Ingram, Pierre Thomas, and Chris Ivory seemed to shuffle in and out of some unseen dimensional portal. With all four backs under contract as of right now, the uncertainty remains heading into 2012.

One little aside before moving on: Has anyone else noticed that Saints running backs over the past few seasons have had a rash of severe lower-body injuries, all of which were suffered in the Superdome? In 2007, Deuce McAllister tore his ACL at home against Tennessee. In 2010, Ivory suffered a Lisfranc injury at home against Tampa Bay, and Thomas missed 10 games due to a high ankle sprain suffered at home against Atlanta. Then, this past season, Ingram injured his heel at home against Indianapolis, and then was lost for the final five games because of turf toe that flared up in a home game against Detroit. Anyone have any theories?

Ryan Mathews

Projected: 220 ± 28 carries, 901 ± 110 yards, 7 ± 2 TDs
Actual: 222 carries, 1,091 yards, 6 TDs
Prorated: 253 carries, 1,246 yards, 6 TDs

OK, so you guys are obviously pretty good at this. Yardage and touchdown projections were spot on, with a slight underestimation of Mathews' yardage total. Therefore, special congratulations go out to the lone Twitter follower who predicted 1,250 yards, which started out as the best-case scenario projection, and ended up being the most accurate.

Based on what we've seen of Mathews so far, there are a few things we know with reasonable certainty going forward. No. 1: His 111.2 speed score at the Combine and 4.9 yards per carry in 2011 -- up from 4.3 in 2010 -- suggest he's the real deal. No. 2: He has elite fantasy potential if touchdown vulture Mike Tolbert ends up leaving San Diego in free agency as expected. No. 3: Disregard No. 1 and No. 2 if he continues to lack durability.

Tim Hightower

Projected: 245 ± 26 carries, 1,010 ± 100 yards, 9 ± 2 TDs
Actual: 84 carries, 321 yards, 1 TDs
Prorated: 268 carries, 1,027 yards, 3 TDs

Hey! Whaddyaknow, another bullseye for the dart throwers! If Hightower doesn't wreck his knee in midseason, his season ends up on-target for projected carries and yardage.

Speaking of that knee, NFL.com fantasy guy, Michael Fabiano, posted some research recently, which showed that running backs return to pre-ACL-tear production faster if they're younger and suffer the injury earlier in the season. Hightower's injury came at 25 years old, and occurred in Week 7 of 2011, so he has a good chance to be productive in 2012. To me, that's a buy-low fantasy opportunity.

It's also potentially a buy-low for NFL teams because Hightower will become an unrestricted free agent on March 13th. I know, I know. Football Outsiders is an industry leader in disdain for free agent running back signings. However, what we're actually against is signing older free agent backs to inflated contracts. That doesn't apply here, especially given the likelihood of a bear market for Hightower post-injury.

Marshawn Lynch

Projected: 246 ± 36 carries, 900 ± 118 yards, 7 ± 2 TDs
Actual: 285 carries, 1,204 yards, 12 TDs
Prorated: 304 carries, 1,284 yards, 12 TDs

Speaking of that running-back-free-agent caveat, Lynch just signed a well-deserved, long-term deal with Seattle after a 2011 season in which he exceeded everyone's expectations, including yours. After consecutive seasons of sub-4.0 performance, Lynch ran for 4.2 yards per carry this past season, up over half-a-yard from 2010. What's even more impressive is that he accomplished this despite playing behind an offensive line that ranked 28th in ALY, 29th in power success rate, and 32nd in stuffed rate. Seattle also ranked 11th in open-field yards, which suggests that their running game was a one-man gang. If the Seahawks do anything to improve their offensive line, Lynch, who will only be 26 years old in 2012, could have big things ahead of him.

That's all for this week. Next week, we'll review the Wisdom of Crowds projections for wide receivers.

Posted by: Danny Tuccitto on 09 Mar 2012

32 comments, Last at 15 Mar 2012, 2:25pm by Noah of Arkadia

Comments

1
by Noah of Arkadia :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 2:25pm

My signature tells the story.

------
We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.

15
by Noah of Arkadia :: Sat, 03/10/2012 - 11:12am

I was hoping by now people would have run with this, coming up with stuff like "We're the Mystery Crowd" or "Is it ok to remove the watermelon yet?", giving me time to come up with some good villain names. Sadly the Tebow Boys and Casanova Clutchenstein are the best I have.

Total fail.

------
We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.

31
by dbostedo :: Wed, 03/14/2012 - 1:52pm

Well I had to look up what the heck your signature was. And I've never seen it, and don't know any quotes from it. Maybe pick a more low-brow, crowd-friendly target next time?

32
by Noah of Arkadia :: Thu, 03/15/2012 - 2:25pm

Man, this is geek country. I'm sure many people know about it. In any case, it's no big deal. Just having fun out there.

------
We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.

2
by Shattenjager :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 2:49pm

For mentioning Francis Galton, Danny becomes my favorite FO writer. It probably only lasts until Tanier writes something else, but it's there for now.

4
by Bright Blue Shorts :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 3:39pm

Francis Galton ... blimey ... the first thing I remembered about him was eugenics. I'm not sure that's a good thing to be remembered for, even if there are certain football players whom we could do without the offspring of.

7
by Shattenjager :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 6:11pm

I would go through a pretty long list before I would get to that. I think being the father of all statistical theory (including inventing the correlation) is what he's really best remembered for.

He also performed the first statistical study of intercessory prayer and didn't hide his results, which endears him to me.

3
by MilkmanDanimal :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 2:52pm

I saw the "Wisdom of Crowds" notification on Twitter, and immediately started sobbing. Ah, 2011 season, how you crushed the soul of Bucs fans everywhere.

I do have admit that I have no idea how to think about 2011 (aside sobbing); the youngest team in the league, a very short offseason, and a coaching staff completely incapable of righting the proverbial ship the moment things started going wrong. Throw in the chaos of Talib and Haynesworth and the apparent lack of discipline or anything vaguely resembling coaching or veteran leadership (three players on the team 30 or older), and I have no idea whether Tampa is still promisingly young or falling apart. Oh, and I really don't have any reading on the new coaching staff either.

So . . . the Freeman numbers? No idea what to take from it. There was pretty clearly a large amount of completely giving up by large portions of the team, and I wonder how many INTs wound up as being forced balls in a desperate attempt to keep up and how many were just purely crappy decisions.

30
by chemical burn :: Mon, 03/12/2012 - 6:53pm

I think the explanation is this: 2010 got your hopes up, but they were a mediocre team that feasted on an awful NFC West and playing a world-class awful Panthers team twice. With a more average schedule they would have gone 7-9 or 8-8 and the expectations wouldn't have been so high and they might have been able to eke out something similar this year. Instead, they believed the hype, gave up and collapsed. I suspect Freeman is pretty good - he's certainly proven he CAN be good at an NFL, which is more than many QB's ever accomplish - but clearly needs coach holding his focus and won't be Manning out there, running the show himself, keeping his teammates in check. So many of his mistakes seemed like the result of sloppiness, which could legitimately be considered a symptom of the malaise that clearly infected the team. It's a lot of chaos, but some coaching stability and a few good-signings/draft picks they could compete for a wildcard... if the rest of their division weren't legit wildcard contenders.

5
by Harris :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 4:39pm

Holy cats! For some reason I thought Lynch was over 30. That signing looks a lot better now.

20
by Danish Denver-Fan :: Sun, 03/11/2012 - 5:04am

Well he's 15th on the "most carries through age 25"-list since 1990.

http://pfref.com/tiny/IqQTt

So in that respect he may be one of the "oldest" 25 year-olds. If that make any sense...

21
by Mr Shush :: Sun, 03/11/2012 - 9:14am

In fairness, most of the backs above him on that list still had some pretty damn good football left in them . . .

6
by Keith(1) (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 4:39pm

I really want to see Peyton done this year. I wonder if the majority of responders will be like Cold, Hard Football Facts (lol), or if they are going to be more reasonable.

8
by CraigoMc (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 6:11pm

What did CHFF do now?

11
by JIPanick :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 9:41pm

The usual idiocy.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/kerry_byrne/03/07/peyton.m...

*Argument 1: "Even the greatest quarterbacks simply do not produce in their late 30s the same way they produce in their late 20s." (Sites only a single anecdote in support, Montana, while ignoring counterexamples like Staubach, Young, Elway, and Favre.)

*Argument 2: "Manning may have been the best QB ever in 2004. But by 2010, he was little more than an above-average quarterback." (Technically, 2nd in DYAR is above average, I suppose.)

*Argument 3: "Manning is not only an old quarterback. He's an old quarterback coming off a catastrophic neck injury that forced him to miss an entire season after not missing a single game in his first 13 years." (This one is fair.)

*Argument 4: Manning is Just Another Guy when playing outdoors, so if a non-dome team signs him... (No comment.)

*Argument 5: Manning may have trouble adjusting to a new system, because "Manning has enjoyed more stability than any quarterback of his era." (I'm curious. Is two years age difference a different era, or is Tom Brady secretly not a quarterback?)

*Argument 6: Manning chokes in the playoffs. (No comment.)

12
by tuluse :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 10:12pm

Don't forget Donovan McNabb on the stability front.

18
by justanothersteve :: Sat, 03/10/2012 - 5:43pm

Or Favre.

23
by Bright Blue Shorts :: Sun, 03/11/2012 - 4:06pm

Rich Gannon was more productive in his late 30s than any other time in his career ... by passer rating his top 6 seasons in order came at age 37,36,31,35,39,34.

16
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Sat, 03/10/2012 - 12:30pm

5 is sort of fair. Manning played a very similar system in college as well. He's spent basically the last 17 seasons running the same offense.

19
by Mr Shush :: Sat, 03/10/2012 - 5:44pm

And New England have modified their offense in all sorts of ways over his time there. You can't tell me there's no significant difference between running the 2011 Gronkowski-Hernandez-Welker offense, the 2007 Moss-Welker offense, the horrendous mid-decade Gaffney-Caldwell-Watson offense and the early decade Branch-Givens-Brown offense. Peyton's receivers got worse over time, but they were always fundamentally doing the same things. Brady's, not so much.

25
by Dan :: Mon, 03/12/2012 - 1:46am

If I signed Manning, I'd give him an 18th year in that system. If you spend a boatload of money on Peyton Manning, why run anything other than the Peyton Manning offense? They can even bring Tom Moore in to "consult" on the offense.

And if I was Manning, I'd be sure that the head coach and offensive coordinator were going to let me run my offense. There are enough teams that want him - I'm sure he can find one to do it.

26
by Shattenjager :: Mon, 03/12/2012 - 1:51am

Isn't Moore still employed by the Jets at this point?

9
by JIPanick :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 6:15pm

FO is pretty much the polar opposite of CHFF.

Also: "unknown quantity like Manning". Really? Manning is about as known as it gets.

10
by Danny Tuccitto :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 6:38pm

If you have any insider knowledge about his physical condition at the moment, please pass it along. Until then, Manning circa 3/9/12 is an unknown quantity.

13
by db :: Fri, 03/09/2012 - 11:04pm

Well said.

14
by Skins fan # 721 (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2012 - 6:47am

Must be nice to be a Rams fan today. I hope the Redskins next GM/coach combo knows what they're doing, they'll have a lot of fixing to do.

17
by Tomlin_Is_Infallible :: Sat, 03/10/2012 - 5:39pm

NAH, RG3 is going to beast out and throw passes to himself on offense, while also playing ironman and going all pro in the 2ndary with 38 picks and 110 tackles a season.

--------------------------------------
Velvet Sky fan

22
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Sun, 03/11/2012 - 1:31pm

He went to Baylor, not TCU.

24
by The Idiot (not verified) :: Sun, 03/11/2012 - 11:57pm

Now, my good sir, might that be a Sammy Baugh reference right there?

28
by Aaron Brooks Go... :: Mon, 03/12/2012 - 9:26am

It is indeed!

Although Baugh only ever caught one pass and had terrible rushing numbers.

27
by Kevin from Philly :: Mon, 03/12/2012 - 7:49am

"Has anyone else noticed that Saints running backs over the past few seasons have had a rash of severe lower-body injuries, all of which were suffered in the Superdome? ... Anyone have any theories?"

Maybe the Saints were a little TOO aggresive with their bounty payouts?

29
by MaxMulitz (not verified) :: Mon, 03/12/2012 - 9:37am

So Lynch is an exception to 'don't pay runners' because he got 4.2 a carry which was his best season in the past 3? And that's why they should pay him? What?