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» Futures: UCLA QB Brett Hundley

Beyond the immediate considerations of Hundley's potential, the quarterback's tape raises larger questions about the position.

26 Oct 2006

The Week in Quotes: October 26, 2006

compiled by Alex Carnevale

IF YOU'RE HAPPY AND YOU KNOW IT CLAP YOUR HANDS

"Words are good but eventually there's action. Your life is about choices and consequences and you know there are consequences. I always tell players there are two ways you can take it. I'm a very patient man and that's fine but I'm also tolerant. When you get to the tolerance stage with me it's not very good, 'cause I'll tolerate you until I can replace you."

-- Chiefs coach Herman Edwards after his team's 30-27 victory over the San Diego Chargers.

"I didn't say anything to him. You leave kickers alone. But I trusted that at the end, when it was time to kick a field goal he was going to make it. He not only made one, he made two."

-- Edwards, the master of handling kickers

YOU NEED TO HAVE CHILDREN TO UNDERSTAND WHY I BROUGHT THIS GUY BACK

"Do you have kids? I have one who's grown up already and two little girls, and they're not old enough to make mistakes where they know any better. But when they do, hopefully, if they make two of them, I don't get rid of them."

-- Edwards, on bringing back right tackle John Welbourn, who twice tested positive for a banned substance. (Kansas City Star)

"I just think players make mistakes because they're human. When they do, you have to take a stand and say, 'What do you want to do with the guy?' Do you want to say that since you've made some mistakes in your life that you can't play on this team anymore?"

-- Edwards

"All I know is this -- in life you make choices. You make choices, and there are consequences for your choices."

-- Edwards

THAT'S NEVER MADE YOU GOOD BEFORE, HERM

"He's a good football player. You know what makes coaches good? Good players, last time I checked."

-- Edwards

"He hurt the team; he hurt his reputation because of the accusations that came along. But no one knows what happened. Then you look at it and say he's done those things and he's paid a price for it, too, because everyone's talking about that player. So you have to make a decision as a coach."

-- Edwards

"Did he work hard when he was here? Yeah. Is he a good football player? Yeah. Is he hard to handle? No, not hard to handle, comes to work every day on time, made a bad decision or two. So then you have to decide if you want him back. At this point, I want him back."

-- Edwards

LAME. TOTALLY LAME.

"I was asked to change by the head man."

-- Chad Johnson, Bengals WR, on head coach Marvin Lewis telling him to cut out the touchdown celebrations. (ESPN.com)

"So therefore, what you see from me is what he wants -- just make your plays and go back to the huddle. So that's what I'm going to do. Going to be no more talking, no nothing. Just go out there and play, go home. If that's what it takes to make us a better team, so be it."

-- Johnson

"Very lame, isn't it?"

-- Johnson

I'M THE KIND OF GUY WHO COMES TO THE MEDIA SAYING, "I'M NOT THE KIND OF GUY WHO COMES TO THE MEDIA SAYING I'M NOT GETTING THE BALL"

"I'm not the kind of guy who comes to the media saying, 'I'm not getting the ball.' But yeah, it's been frustrating. But at the same time, they're going to start coming to me because they've got to. I've proved in the past that I can do it."

-- Chiefs TE Tony Gonzalez, on his touches before a breakout game against the Chargers on Sunday.

"Don't for one minute think that because he's struggled for a couple of weeks that he isn't capable. As I said at the time, 'Our hope is that he doesn't all of a sudden have a breakout game against us' -- and that's exactly what happened. He did have a breakout game against us."

-- Chargers head coach Marty Schottenheimer, on Gonzalez.

“I just know what I can do. Everyone has an opinion. I learned that the hard way. I just work and work and work. I want to be the best at what I do. I don't play this game for money. I don't play for individual honors. I just want to be a member of a Super Bowl champion team and be a good kicker."

-- Chiefs kicker Lawrence Tynes

"HE HAD A GOOD DREAM. IT'S THE ONLY DREAM YOU CAN HAVE—TO COME OUT THE NUMBER-ONE MAN."

"If you think getting angry will help, I'll get plenty angry in a heartbeat. I'm not sure that's going to help."

-- Dolphins head coach Nick Saban, on his team's absymal start.

''I say it's my fault, OK? Nobody else's fault, because if I said it's somebody else's fault, then I'm pointing the finger. I can't win this one, so it's my fault. You understand?''

-- Saban (Miami Herald)

"I'm ashamed to put a team out there that played like that. I apologize to the people who came out to watch that."

-- Cowboys head coach Bill Parcells, on his MNF loss to the New York Giants.

"Things can always change in football. I'm staying with Maurice right now."

-- Cleveland Browns head coach Romeo Crennel, on newly fired offensive coordinator Maurice Carthon last week.

YOU HAD A HORSE?!?

"I was raised in a humbling experience. My background says I've never rode the easy horse. I've always rode the bucking horse."

-- Denny Green, erstwhile Cardinals head coach.

"Yeah, why not? We're professionals. This is what we do for a living."

-- Cardinals WR Anquan Boldin, on his faith in the Cards coaching staff. (New Jersey Star-Ledger)

"He calls them all. I mean, our coordinator always calls plays. I've been a head coach for 21 years…my role is to try to handle the circumstances and situations of the game and make decisions on whether you go for it on fourth down, whether you kick a field goal, go for a block ... I don't call plays."

-- Cardinals head coach Dennis Green

A POSITIVE STEROIDS TEST IS LITERALLY ONE WORD AWAY FROM A NEGATIVE TEST, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT. WOW. WOW.

"Wow! This whole thing that has happened has been a hard process. But I'm dealing with it... I'm not running from this situation. I'm not running from anybody. I'm going to be straight up and honest from and try to deal with it accordingly. Hopefully, nobody makes any kind of judgment or anything that makes me guilty for anything, because nothing has been done wrong on my part."

-- Chargers linebacker Shawne Merriman, who tested positive for a banned substance he claims entered his body accidentally.

"I have no reason to do anything wrong, especially when I'm already in the spotlight and doing things and trying to present to people the right and wrong way to go about things. Obviously, this is a mistake that has to be dealt with correctly, and hopefully no judgment is made before anything else comes out."

-- Shawne Merriman, who is making a completely absurd $310,000 this year.

“I won't answer anything. I'm not allowed. Trust me, there are a lot of things I really want to say. I'm not allowed to say anything. As soon as I find out I can comment on the facts and the things that are going on, I will."

-- Merriman (San Diego Union-Tribune)

"Maybe about 20 years ago, the numbers were high as far as players using steroids. I would say it's now under 10 percent or less using steroids or similar-type drugs. These guys don't mess around. To test positive could cost you a lot financially. I don't see why guys mess around with this stuff, because they have so much to lose."

-- unnamed former Cleveland Brown (Baltimore Sun)

OH THOSE SALAD DAYS

"With Fox we had it. We had respect for one another, we loved one another and there was an unselfishness. I recognized that I was working with three major stars. I was perfectly suited ego-wise to make sure they were the ones to shine, to get them the ball."

-- CBS studio host James Brown

"We sugarcoated the education pill, we disseminated information in a humorous fashion. If people could have a good time when they tuned in, then they would listen, and in the process we would drop pearls of wisdom on them."

-- Brown, on his time at Fox.

"People say Fox is No. 1. I helped build that, so I know what the deal is there. They are formidable. But I think we got some pretty darn good talent [at CBS]."

-- James Brown

ANOTHER DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OUR STUDIO SHOW AND WAR AND PEACE WOULD BE LESS RUSSIANS

"I've heard people say (we) are as loose and as comfortable as they've ever seen, but we are still giving out information. Right now the guys are having fun. I mean, it's not War and Peace."

--Brown (USA Today)

"Dan Marino is a Hall of Famer. Shannon Sharpe raised the Super Bowl trophy three times, and Boomer Esiason was one of the great quarterbacks when he retired. He is so TV-savvy. So let me find out their strengths."

-- Brown, on his studio "team"

DR. GUSKIEWICZ, INJURY REPORT. INJURY REPORT, DR. GUSKIEWICZ.

"Our studies do not suggest that football is an unsafe sport. They do underscore the importance of making certain that athletes are without any symptoms before they are allowed to return to participation... They are unlikely to sit out unless a physician or athletic trainer holds them out."

-- Dr. Kevin Guskiewicz, associate professor of exercise and sport science at UNC.

"We've learned more about this injury in the past five years than in the past 50 years."

-- neuropsychologist Michael Collins of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, on concussions. (Charlotte.com)

ALTHOUGH COMPETING FOR A CHAMPIONSHIP AS AN OAKLAND RAIDER IS APPEALING, I THINK I'll HANG ONTO MY SPINE

"I've gotten shots before. Especially with the back, dealing with the nerves, that's not something you want to be dealing around with. I love playing the game, but there's life after football."

-- Raiders running backLaMont Jordan, on his injury issues

OR IN A CERTAIN RUNNING BACK'S CASE, HOST GOOD MORNING AMERICA

"Hopefully, people don't take that the wrong way, but there's other things, like being able to walk, play with your kids."

-- Jordan

"After rehabbing and working with our medical staff, it was our hope that John would be ready to play against Cincinnati. Unfortunately, a second opinion conducted Monday afternoon confirmed that John will need minor surgery to help him get back to 100 percent."

-- Falcons head coach Jim Mora Jr. on injured DE John Abraham

AND IF YOU BELIEVE THAT, I HAVE A HOT PROJECT TO SELL YOU. DENZEL IS ATTACHED, AND NICHOLSON PLAYS TOM COUGHLIN. SIGN HERE

"Any moron should now realize he is retiring and that it has nothing to do with a money grab. There it is. No more character assassination. That was like a Hollywood script. You watch that game, you know it's over. He's clearly knocked out, like Mike Tyson knocked out Trevor Berbick, hitting him right on top of the head."

-- Tiki Barber's agentMark Lepselter, on Tiki Barber's announcement that this will be his last season.

"He doesn't want to take the wear and tear, doesn't want to fall to the ground again completely limp. And we've crafted a plan to put him in a position he can leave. We have multiple networks interested."

-- Lepselter

SO, BASICALLY, YOU'LL NEVER MISS HIM

"He's the kind of guy, like Bill Parcells used to say about Phil Simms, 'You'll miss him when he's gone.'"

-- Lepselter (New York Daily News)

OTHER FAVORITES INCLUDE WHITE CASTLE, PANCAKES, SANTA CLAUSE 3: THE ESCAPE CLAUSE, TABBY CATS, DMB, HO-HOS, "SUPPLEMENTS"

"I like Outback steakhouse, and some of the other guys introduced me to some other steakhouses. I like the food here. I like meat. Hey, I'm a big guy."

-- Samuel Gutekunst, German OT on the Ravens practice squad, whose hobbies are "snooker, fine cigars, cars and weightlifting."

"He takes the time to fine-tune everything and he's really getting much better. We've learned a lot from him about Germany, and he's fitting in with us."

-- Ravens G Jason Brown

"I was a fat kid. The coaches said I had to get bigger.�

-- Gutekunst

SOMETIMES WE'LL JUST CURL UP IN SLEEPING BAGS AND DREAM ABOUT THE PS3

"All these guys have been great. Especially in the locker room, where it's like a big family. They make jokes about my German accent and how I mess up, but it's all in fun. I wouldn't trade this experience for anything."

-- Gutekunst (Scout.com)

A QUOTE MACHINE HAS DIED TODAY

"I hate for it to happen. But all I can do is stay positive about it and try to come back better than I did before the injury."

-- LaVar Arrington, who tore his Achilles in the Giants' 36-22 victory over the Cowboys.

"I told my whole family to watch this game. I told everyone to watch this game because this was going to be the game I realized who I was and (went) out there and played like him."

-- Arrington

THE REST

"Obviously the league's going to work out the economics and if we lose a home game, we'll get compensated. "We're comfortable with it. Obviously we'd like to play in Mexico or Canada and not have to travel to Europe and that's probably the way it would be set up because of our location. But as far as the league's concerned, I think it's a great idea."

-- Pat Bowlen, owner of the Denver Broncos, on the announcement of regular season games outside the United States.

"He didn't succeed in anything but football, which was sad and I'm sure was an embarrassment to him."

-- Tom Callahan, historian and author on QB Johnny Unitas (San Jose Mercury News)

"It wasn't a learning center. Everybody always makes it sound like I'm [unintelligent] or something like that. It was just a class that helped me study, helped me prepare. It's something that a lot of people do; there were a lot of grownups there."

-- Seneca Wallace, Seahawks QB

"It probably was a little embarrassing ... but he did this, and he worked hard to improve his skills and it's helped him. I applaud him for that."

-- Seahawks coach Mike Holmgren, on Wallace's learning disabilities (Heraldnet.com)

"Moments like this are the main reason I'm a Mike Vick fan. For all the talk about what Vick can't do, I like to talk about what he can do. And he does things that no other player in the history of the game at that position has the ability to do."

-- Jim Mora Jr.

"It is what it is."

-- Cowboys quarterback Drew Bledsoe, on losing the starting job to Tony Romo.

Send suggestions to quotes at football outsiders dot com.

Posted by: Alex Carnevale on 26 Oct 2006

84 comments, Last at 29 Oct 2006, 8:09pm by Sid

Comments

1
by cabbage (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 11:03am

“snooker, fine cigars, cars and weightlifting.�

Aren't those Aaron's hobbies as well?

2
by Parker (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 11:17am

…my role is to try to handle the circumstances and situations of the game and make decisions on whether you go for it on fourth down, whether you kick a field goal, go for a block … I don’t call plays.�

– Cardinals head coach Dennis Green

If that's all Denny does on game day, it really explains quite a few things for me.

3
by Pacifist Viking (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 11:17am

There should be a weekly feature where you use a different Willy Loman line as the heading for quotes from losing coaches.

4
by lobolafcadio (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 11:25am

“Don’t for one minute think that because he’s struggled for a couple of weeks that he isn’t capable. As I said at the time, ‘Our hope is that he doesn’t all of a sudden have a breakout game against us’ — and that’s exactly what happened. He did have a breakout game against us.�

– Chargers head coach Marty Schottenheimer, on Gonzalez.

I read the same quote with Marty speaking about Larry Johnson (which makes a lot more sense for me - to use Gonzales, substitute "couple of weeks" by "couple of season"...)

Another thing, Herm Edwards is a dumbass. What does it mean "I don't speak to kickers" ? Aren't kickers football players ? Speak about chemistry !!!
I didn't like the way he had to sneak out of NY, but now I can say it, Herm Edwards is a "putain de connard de merde" !

It's said.

5
by Kevo (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 11:42am

Interesting how Herm Edwards, a guy who played for Dick Vermeil, says that good players make good coaches. Sounds like something Vermeil would never say, as it's pretty much a built-in excuse for losing. Coach can't win? Must be because he doesn't have good players.

6
by Tom Kelso (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 11:43am

You guys are definitely digging -- even I don't read all that stuff on Ravensnet.

"Former Cleveland Brown" o-lineman being quoted by the Baltimore Sun about a long career observing roid use -- why didn't they just call him "Tiny Lister" in the article? Or say that one of his eyes has been fuzzy for a few seasons? Thank God these guys weren't workign the Joe Wilson story -- Scotoer Libby might already be in jail, the way they "protect" their source.

7
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 11:47am

"Any moron should now realize he is retiring and that it has nothing to do with a money grab. There it is. No more character assassination. "

????

Last time I checked, the media was busy juggling Tiki's nuts, not assasinating his character.

8
by Matthew Furtek (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 11:59am

Re: #7
Yup. I don't recall everyone being so high on Tiki until he announced his retirement. Now all of a sudden they are all high on him.

You-know-who-who is going to be leading the charge for his Hall of Fame induction...

9
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 12:02pm

Merriman is only making an "absurd" $310,000 this year if one wishes to also say the he was absurdly paid several million dollars last year for holding a press conference. The more accurate thing to do, of course, would be to prorate his guaranteed money, plus his salary this year, to arrive at what his compensation is this year.

Am I interpreting the quotes by Holmgren and Wallace accurately when they lead me to think that he took these classes after becoming a pro? In other words, Iowa State was perfectly willing to use Wallace to help fund it's Athletic Department, without actually taking adequate measures in regards to Wallace's learning disabilities, so as to allow Wallace to function in the workplace?

In other words, the Seattle Seahawks Football Club is a clearly superior educational institution, compared to Iowa State University, at least in regards to people with football skills. That pretty much sums up my disgust with Division I college football.

10
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 12:08pm

Barber has been a terrific player, especially the last couple years. He was also a fumble machine for the majority of his time in the league. If he makes the HOF, it's a sure sign that the writers' personal buddies get the fast track, regardless of credentials.

11
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 12:11pm

10.

Will, I agree.

I saw a special at one point about Tiki, and they were showing film of him early in his career, and recently, and pointing out that the difference between him fumbling often, and almost never, is just a couple inches of ball/arm position.

I tried holding a ball the two different ways, and it was pretty clear that one was MUCH easier to knock out.

12
by MCS (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 12:19pm

#9 - I've heard the same said about the Packers and Javon Walker.

13
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 12:28pm

Too many running backs get a free pass for the their fumble rates, compared to how qb INT rates are analyzed to the nth degree. I wish historical fumble rates were easier to access, although I think PFP 2005 (which I should try to get a copy of; I can't believe I didn't buy it last year) had a piece on the topic. I always suspected that Eric Dickerson fumbled at a significantly higher rate than other great backs, but I've never confirmed it.

14
by Travis (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 12:37pm

I always suspected that Eric Dickerson fumbled at a significantly higher rate than other great backs, but I’ve never confirmed it.

Try here.

Dickerson fumbled 10+ times in a season 5 times in his career, and once per 42 touches, which I suspect is way above average for RBs.

15
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 12:37pm

#12, I take your remark to mean that Walker also had significant learning disabilities which were not adressed until he left college ball, and became a pro.

Every once in a while you read a story of some Division I football or basketball player who spends four or five years selling tickets for the University, and then leaves functionally illiterate. If the NCAA had any integrity, any University which allowed that to happen would receive an immediate death penalty, and have their program disbanded. Otherwise, the NCAA should just be viewed as a professional sports league, with players paid consistent with the revenues they generate.

16
by James, London (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 12:54pm

I love the Pat Bowlen quote. Basically, it's 'As long as I'm alright and don't have to go far, screw the rest of the league'.

Why do I think the 1st game in London will two of Jacksonville, Arizona and Oakland, and my Grandchildren might see an NFC East team if they're lucky?

17
by Moridin (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 12:55pm

“I went to the Cardinals because I needed to make sure I never wanted to play football again.�

- Emmit Smith on MNF

Quote captured by Randy Smith on the MNF thread.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/10/22/open-discussion/4430/#commen...

18
by Moridin (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 12:55pm

Er... Randy S. anyway.

19
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 12:58pm

Thanks, Travis. By comparison, Barber through last year was about one fumble per 48 touches, and the best back I ever saw, Walter Payton, was about one fumble per 51 touches. Barber doesn't look too bad compared to Dickerson in that regard, but Barber hasn't been nearly as productive otherwise, of course.

Yeah, Dickerson obviously belongs in the HOF, but he fumbled way too much, compared to some other HOF backs, which is something that people overlook when they say Dickerson was one of the top five running backs of all time, which is a claim some have made.

20
by Diane (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 12:59pm

"ANOTHER DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OUR STUDIO SHOW AND WAR AND PEACE WOULD BE LESS RUSSIANS"

===================

Alex .... you rock! ROFL ....

21
by Peter (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 1:02pm

“Do you have kids? I have one who’s grown up already and two little girls, and they’re not old enough to make mistakes where they know any better. But when they do, hopefully, if they make two of them, I don’t get rid of them.�

I want a boss who won't fire me for failing a drugs test twice!

22
by DWL (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 1:06pm

Don’t for one minute think that because he’s struggled for a couple of weeks that he isn’t capable. As I said at the time, ‘Our hope is that he doesn’t all of a sudden have a breakout game against us’ — and that’s exactly what happened. He did have a breakout game against us.�

– Chargers head coach Marty Schottenheimer, on Gonzalez.

Marty, hope is not a (game)plan.

23
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 1:12pm

Travis, that's a great site; I just calculated Emmitt Smith's and Barry Sanders fumble rates, and they both came out in the low 80s. As much a I loved Payton, Smith and Sanders just moved a lot closer to him, in my estimation.

It is also interesting to note that Jim Brown was a fumbler, at one per 46 touches.

24
by Travis (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 1:14pm

No problem, Will.

Barber's actually around 1 fumble per 51 touches, when his kickoff and punt returns (which I imagine have a higher fumble rate) are factored in.

Dickerson's fumble rate is on par with O.J. Simpson's, and is actually better than that of Tony Dorsett and Franco Harris.

Top 20 in rushing yards, and their fumbles/touch:

E Smith 80.7
W Payton 50.5
B Sanders 83.4
C Martin 138.0
J Bettis 89.7
E Dickerson 42.0
T Dorsett 37.0
J Brown 46.2
M Faulk 100.1
M Allen 55.5
F Harris 36.3
T Thomas 67.0
J Riggins 54.6
O Simpson 42.6
C Dillon 102.1
R Watters 71.8
E George 84.7
O Anderson 52.5
E James 77.1
T Barber 51.3

25
by Travis (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 1:15pm

That should be touches per fumble, not fumbles/touch.

26
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 1:19pm

24.

One thing that has to be considered there is that the further you go back, the more "mugging of the RB" was allowed.

There was also a point where basically, if the ball came out, it was a fumble, whether or not your knee had already touched...

27
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 1:23pm

Boy, I think this is a number that should be more closely looked at when evaluating running backs. Look at what an outlier Curtis Martin is! Marshall Faulk also. Given how turnovers affect the chances of winning, it is odd that more attention isn't paid to this.

28
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 1:35pm

It would also be interesting to note what the median fumble per touches rate was for running backs as a group in each year, or in different eras. I would expect the backs with great running and catching skills backs to have higher rates, simply because a guy with average skills in those areas wouldn't be tolerated as long if he were a fumbler.

It used to drive me nuts that a guy like Alstott would be spoken of as an elite player, despite the fact that he didn't contribute much in the way of big plays (although he certainly had value), while fumbling a lot.

29
by Rick "32_Footsteps" Healey (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 1:46pm

Wow, Curtis Martin really held on to the ball that well? That seems almost inhuman - like his hands secrete glue or something.

"I like meat. Hey, I’m a big guy.�

Is it wrong that I mentally imagine some tall, fat guy saying this with a German accent and I can't help snickering like a 12-year old?

30
by Bill (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 1:50pm

According to that site, Rudi Johnson has 5 fumbles in ~1000 touches, through 2005. Damn.

31
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 1:53pm

I just became an extremely strong advocate for Curtis Martin's induction in the HOF, and if Thurman Thomas' worthiness weren't already obvious, his fumble rate compared to guys already in the Hall drives home how absurdly qualified he is.

32
by Travis (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 1:55pm

Re: 26, 28

Fumble rates have gone down over time, from about 1 per 30 offensive plays in the 1970's to 1 per 40 offensive plays in the last 10 years. (Note: fumbles on special teams are included, but the special teams plays themselves are not.)

A purposely crude Excel graph, which is probably easier to read than an unformatted table.

33
by MRH (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 2:03pm

More Edwards bashing, I see. Well, the guy does provide some interesting quotes.

I just wonder why so many think he's a bad coach. My impression is that he's a good coach in many respects - he gets his players to play hard even when things look bleak. His 2-10 team last year finished 2-2; I'd suggest a bad coach would go 0-4 in that situation. Could he be better? Yes. I'm aware of his time management issues and conservative philosophy. But look at playoff appearances 2001-2005:
Four - Belichick, Cowher, Dungy, Reid, Sherman
Three - Holmgren, Gruden, Shanahan, Martz, Edwards

No other coach has taken the Jets to 3 playoff appearances in five years. How bad can the guy be? And what is the record of those coaches when their starting qb gets hurt?

34
by Bill Barnwell :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 2:06pm

I'm surprised that the German fella didn't list table tennis and rape as his other two hobbies.

35
by zlionsfan (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 2:07pm

It wasn't as big of a deal when Jim Brown fumbled, because he'd just stand over the ball and dare you to pick it up.

What I like about Parcells is his ability to accept his share of the blame when things go wrong.

What, no Art Shell quotes?

36
by Bobman (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 2:15pm

Damn, Rich C I am LMAO at #7.

Will Allen #8, I recall hearing something about Seneca W talking classes locally--I think they were described as "how to get yourself organized for learning" classes, the kind you might take if you took time off between HS and college and were never a very good student, but decided it was time to discipline yourself and better yourself. Maybe some HS kids prepping for SAT study... I think your interpretation re: Iowa State and the Seahawks is right, sadly. (of course Seattle drafted him--didn't they have any qualms after all the investigation that goes on?)

#24 Travis, great list! This means of course that, if Edge fumbled so seldomly, he just reserved it for the goal line against NE. Franco Harris? Can that be right? How the F%$# did he ever actually hold onto the immaculate reception!! Curtis Martin never blew me away, but now I see why people, coahces especially, love him.

37
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 2:21pm

MRH, I tend to agree about Edwards. I also tend to think that in-game management is the most overrated part of coaching, in terms of contribution to victory. Getting the right guys on the roster, and getting the guys on the roster prepared prior to the game, has much more value. In the salary cap era, a coach who makes sure that his front office clearly understands who is worth x amount of cap space, and who is not, is probably most important, along with getting young players, who don't use much space, ready to contribute as soon as possible. Compared to those issues, whether one throws or passes on third and four is less important.

38
by Travis (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 2:21pm

His 2-10 team last year finished 2-2; I’d suggest a bad coach would go 0-4 in that situation.

Jet fans, for the most part, WANTED the team to go 0-4, draft curse be damned. It's not Herm's fault for trying to win, of course.

Herm Edwards is a decent coach. His teams are always ready to play, and his players seem to like playing for him. But, he has two glaring faults, all of which show up on game day, and which everyone notices:

1. He's conservative to the point where it hurts the team. This is most evident in end-of-game situations like in the Jets-Pittsburgh playoff game, but also shows up elsewhere, like his declaration that "any drive that ends up with a kick" would be a good one, in Brooks Bollinger's first start last year.

2. His clock management is abysmal, and costs his teams at least a game/year. This manifests itself in timeouts called/not called at the wrong time, passes to the middle of the field/short of the end zone with not enough time left, and similar things.

39
by JasonK (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 2:29pm

From the NY Daily News (linked), Tiki Barber's reaction to commentators who refered to his talk of retirement as a distraction to the team:

"...I will call them idiots, because they have neither spoken to me, nor any one of my teammates or any of my coaches.... And that includes (The Daily News') Gary Myers," he said. "That includes Tom Jackson on ESPN. That includes the ultimate character guy, facetiously speaking of course, Michael Irvin (ESPN). Please get a clue on how to be a journalist."

40
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 2:42pm

Boy, when you start looking at fumble rates, it really drives home the value of advanced metrics when evaluating player value. Off hand, I just don't know how much Walter Payton's relatively high fumble rate (which surprised me) should affect my appraisal of his value, in comparison to, say Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith, after era adjustments are made. Payton so excelled in every other aspect of the game that it ever occurred to me that he fumbled more than 30% more often than those guys, and I don't know off hand how those extra fumbles would translate into extra losses in a typical season, for a typical team.

41
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 2:58pm

Boy, I always liked Tiki Barber, but now I really do. Too few guys are willing to call out individuals in the media by name, especially when the media guy is a former player, when the media guys are talking out of their ass. Too often, the current player just lumps the media into an undifferentiated mass, when there are some guys who really deserve to be singled out.

At what point does Tom Jackson get the scorn he deserves? The guy really seems to have a penchant for yapping about the inner workings of organizations that he has zero knowledge of. I mean, it is obvious, within 30 seconds of listening to him, that Irvin is a buffoon, but Jackson seems to get a pass. It is ironic that Jackson was said to have hit the roof when he had to share the set with a blowhard like Limbaugh, who yapped stupidly about the inner motivations of people, without a shred of evidence, while Jackson himself yaps stupidly about things he has no knowledge of. Good for Barber.

42
by Dagagad (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 3:00pm

I'm an idiot, but which web site has the info about fumbles?

43
by Dagagad (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 3:07pm

sorry found it. Its early where i am.

44
by bmw1 (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 3:12pm

Karim Abdul-Jabbar has an astounding fumble rate of 1 per 121 touches. Being able to calculate that stat is a wonderful thing. Thanks for the link Travis.

45
by Bill Barnwell :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 3:12pm

Will,

He already sorta has if you've read Patriot Reign.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

In 2003, the New England Patriots released popular safety Lawyer Milloy, who signed with the Buffalo Bills and helped his new team shutout New England on opening weekend, 31-0. On an episode of NFL Countdown, Jackson claimed that the Patriots were not behind head coach Bill Belichick, saying the following: "Let me say this clearly: they hate their coach." His provacative claim drew fervent denials from the Patriots locker room. Belichick was stunned by the remark and the lack of an apology as the season continued. The Patriots recovered from the Buffalo loss and finished the regular season at a league-best 14-2. After the team was victorious in Super Bowl XXXVIII over the Carolina Panthers, Jackson attempted to shake Belichick's hand. The coach responded: "Go fuck yourself." The post-game interview with Belichick was handled entirely by Berman.

46
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 3:29pm

Bill,

I heart Belichek

47
by Ilanin (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 3:53pm

38 - the saying "any drive is good if it ends in a kick" has been repeatedly attributed to/quoted by both Ken Whisenhunt and Ben Roethlisberger, (example in the link, about 2/3rds of the way down), so clearly believing in this particular credo isn't enough to prevent you from either winning a superbowl or acquiring a reputation as an offensive genius.

48
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 3:53pm

Yep, in my view, Belichik deserves immediate induction into the HOF, even while his career is ongoing, for plainly telling an pompous, ignorant, network yammerer to autofornicate in the immediate wake of a Super Bowl victory. I'd heard reference to Belichik being curt with Jackson after that game, but I had no idea that he went the whole nine yards, so to speak.

49
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 4:04pm

#47, the interesting thing is that the wisdom of the statement is entirely dependent on the quality of the defense. If another supposed (at one time) offensive genius, Brian Billick, had said the same thing during the 2000 season, he would have been pretty much accurate. If the Ravens that year would have had the best punter and kicker, and never turned the ball over, I bet they could have made the playoffs, and won the Super Bowl, without ever scoring an offensive touchdown. I remember when Dilfer threw a stupid pick that the Giants returned for a touchdown in the big game, and the enraged look on Billick's face clearly said, "You stupid f***, all you have to do is not give them any points off turnovers, and there is no way they can beat us!"

50
by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 4:11pm

"I say it’s my fault, OK? Nobody else’s fault, because if I said it’s somebody else’s fault, then I’m pointing the finger. I can’t win this one, so it’s my fault. You understand?"

– Saban (Miami Herald)

I'm pretty sure I know exactly what he's saying. "It's not my fault!"

51
by Travis (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 4:20pm

Re: 47

If the team is constantly going 3 and out, there's nothing a normal defense can do. The Jets' drives in that game:

3 plays, 2 yards, punt
3 plays, 6 yards, punt
5 plays, 4 yards, punt
3 plays, 6 yards, punt
6 plays, 14 yards, punt
3 plays, 5 yards, punt
4 plays, -2 yards, FG (drive started at the BAL 1)
7 plays, 38 yards, punt
3 plays, -10 yards, punt
4 plays, 27 yards, punt
8 plays, 52 yards, downs

52
by Jesus (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 4:21pm

...Belichick struggled in cleveland for 5 years, he accomplished nothing. Then in New England he wins superbowls and now he is a football "genius".

I guess Herm is right. Good players make good coaches.

53
by JJcruiser (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 4:34pm

I’M THE KIND OF GUY WHO COMES TO THE MEDIA SAYING, “I’M NOT THE KIND OF GUY WHO COMES TO THE MEDIA SAYING I’M NOT GETTING THE BALL�

That headline was hilarious. I'm still laughing about it here at the bottom of the comments.

52:

No coach ever won with bad players, but plenty of coaches have lost with good ones. Belichick got the most of out some decent ones and one great one, and, yes, the way he did it makes him a football genius.

54
by Are-Tee (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 5:03pm

"– Denny Green, erstwhile Cardinals head coach."

Have the Cardinals fired him already? I haven't seen this reported anywhere else.

Or do you not know that "erstwhile" means "former, previous"?

55
by Jesus (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 5:04pm

... If Belichik spent his entire career in Cleveland, (or Arizona for that matter), I'm sure there would have been a different legacy.

I often wonder how good Peyton Manning would have be if he spent his career in Arizona.

56
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 5:05pm

JJCruiser, I'm a huge Belichik supporter, but the recent Patriots champions have had more than one great player.

57
by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 5:13pm

jesus, the most interesting counterfactual switch for me is Peyton's dad and Terry Bradshaw, who was picked at the top of the draft one year apart from Archie getting the same treatment. I'm pretty sure that if Archie had landed with Noll's Steelers, and Bradshaw had stayed close to home with the Saints, Archie would be viewed as one of the all-time greats, and may have won more championships, while Bradshaw would have taken the bludgeoning that Manning endured.

58
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 5:13pm

55.

The one thing that seems to be the key to having coaches be really successful, is lack of ownership involvement. Bellichek has that in Kraft. Basically, Kraft watches the game, and thats pretty much it. If Bellicheck and Pioli want something, they get it. Too many owners meddle with their teams, and keep the coach from getting the players he actually needs.

(see Fisher wanting to draft Leinart, but getting Young. See Jerry Jones, etc.)

59
by JJcruiser (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 5:32pm

I guess you'd have to define "great," which sounds like a boring semantics argument to me. But the fact that the situation might have been different does not detract from the way the situation actually was.

So what if he struggled in Cleveland? Some people act like that makes him less of a coach. I think he probably learned from some mistakes and got better, smarter, and harder working. Cleveland doesn't detract from his current genius. Even Albert Einstein made predictions that turned out to be wrong, after all. People improve.

I could run down all the statistical achievements he has made with his team of revolving salary-cap era players, but I think they've been done to death elsewhere. My point is just that having a bad few years in one place doesn't detract from subsequent great accomplishments elsewhere.

60
by PatsFan (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 5:52pm

Re: #59

Not to mention the specific, unique circumstances around one of the bad years in Cleveland.

61
by calig23 (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 7:06pm

Every drive that ends in a kick is a good drive.

What exactly is wrong with this statement? A TD drive ends in a kick, a FG drive ends in a kick, and a punt ends in a kick.

TDs and FG are obviously good, and while punts are not usually good, they are generally better than committing turnovers.

62
by calig23 (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 7:06pm

Oh, and apparently Ben got that advice from Dan Dierdorf.

63
by BillWallace (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 8:01pm

Go Tiki... tell them all.

"this was going to be the game I realized who I was and (went) out there and played like him"

!!!!

64
by Peter (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 8:31pm

I was sort of intrigued by the Tiki-for-HOF talk. It's my opinion that if he finishes up this year leading the league in rushing and yards from scrimmage (as he is doing), he will be a marginal candidate. He is presently 16th on the career yards from scrimmage ranking, and if he gains another thousand by the end of the season (EASILY within reach) he'll catapault to 10th, above HOFer Eric Dickerson. He'll also probably pass 10000 yards rushing, a pretty impressive milestone.

That's probably not enough to get him a spot, particularly given only 3 pro bowl appearances (assuming this year), shaky postseason stats, and the fumble problem. Other kinds of things count against him too, like "was he ever the best RB in the league" which I'm not sure anyone thinks he was.

That said, one more 1000-yds-rushing, 1500-yds-from-scrimmage season, and he's passing a lot of hall of famers on the charts and is moving towards cinch territory.

It's kind of a shame that he's retiring, given that he really is only a year away. Sanders was already a lock, and the last early-retiring RB I can think of was Robert Smith, who was great but hadn't even peaked yet, so neither of them are really comparable. I don't understand why he wants to retire now, I'd like to think I would give it one more season.

65
by gmc (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 9:04pm

Division 1 college football = preparation for playing pro football + [a certain amount of free education added in at the expense of people coming to the games].

To be perfectly honest, after reading these quotes I'm usually convinced that a college education would be completely wasted on most of these guys (Edge, the Barbers, and Champ Bailey aside). Let them play football and then let them enjoy spending the money they made playing football.

They ain't gonna be useful for much else, hoss.

65
by gmc (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 9:04pm

Division 1 college football = preparation for playing pro football + [a certain amount of free education added in at the expense of people coming to the games].

To be perfectly honest, after reading these quotes I'm usually convinced that a college education would be completely wasted on most of these guys (Edge, the Barbers, and Champ Bailey aside). Let them play football and then let them enjoy spending the money they made playing football.

They ain't gonna be useful for much else, hoss.

67
by Travis (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 9:23pm

Every drive that ends in a kick is a good drive.

What exactly is wrong with this statement? A TD drive ends in a kick, a FG drive ends in a kick, and a punt ends in a kick.

There's nothing necessary wrong with the statement, but in the application of it:

1. Herm didn't have touchdowns in mind when he made the statement.

2. The Jets offense was over-conservative that day in order to avoid turnovers, so much so that every drive ended in punts, with the exceptions of one drive that started at the opposition 1 yard line and the last drive of the game.

68
by Becephalus (not verified) :: Thu, 10/26/2006 - 9:30pm

The merriman article on the sports pickle is hilarious...

69
by Pat (not verified) :: Fri, 10/27/2006 - 10:09am

To be perfectly honest, after reading these quotes I’m usually convinced that a college education would be completely wasted on most of these guys

You do realize that for everyone quoted here, the money that they would've made in college would likely be a drop in the bucket?

The free college education is for all the guys you don't hear about, who never make it to the NFL. You know, the majority of college players.

70
by Craigers (not verified) :: Fri, 10/27/2006 - 10:17am

snooker, fine cigars, cars and weightlifting

At first, I read this as "snooker, fine cigars, and weightlifting cars", which I thought was a superb list of hobbies for an offensive lineman. Tonight I will probably dream of the day that the Niners come up with a 350-pound German whose hobbies are weightlifting cars, knocking down buildings and axe fighting.

71
by Darren Rasmussen (not verified) :: Fri, 10/27/2006 - 10:56am

Regarding the lower fumble rate in today's game; I am of the opinion that much of that is due to the fact that so many players today wear gloves. It seems reasonable to assume that the gloves allow them to keep a better grip on the ball.

72
by john (not verified) :: Fri, 10/27/2006 - 11:50am

BB took a pretty mediocre Browns team and won a playoff game with them. If you give him a mulligan for the crazy last year he had there and you have a record of 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, 11-5.

Also, he learned a lot from the experience there as well. Quite a few of those former Brown players come back to him for the Jets and Patriots as I recall, so he couldn't have been that bad.

73
by Kurt (not verified) :: Fri, 10/27/2006 - 12:11pm

I remember when Dilfer threw a stupid pick that the Giants returned for a touchdown in the big game, and the enraged look on Billick’s face clearly said, “You stupid f***, all you have to do is not give them any points off turnovers, and there is no way they can beat us!�

Your memory is mistaken. The only touchdown the Giants scored in that game came on a kickoff return.

74
by Marko (not verified) :: Fri, 10/27/2006 - 12:33pm

"I remember when Dilfer threw a stupid pick that the Giants returned for a touchdown in the big game, and the enraged look on Billick’s face clearly said, 'You stupid f***, all you have to do is not give them any points off turnovers, and there is no way they can beat us!'�

Dilfer did not throw an interception that the Giants returned for a touchdown in Super Bowl XXXV. In fact, the Giants did not have any interceptions in that game. In the Ravens' 34-7 win, the Giants' touchdown came on a 97 yard kickoff return. That kickoff return followed an interception returned for a touchdown by the Ravens. After the Giants' kickoff return touchdown, the Ravens returned the ensuing kickoff for another touchdown.

Re: fumbles: I don't know the answer to this, buy maybe someone here does. Have there been any changes over the years regarding who is credited with a fumble when there is a botched handoff? Currently, a fumble on a botched handoff is charged to the quarterback, not the running back. For example, in the Bears game against the Bills, late in the game there was a fumble on a handoff from Brian Griese to Cedric Benson. Although it seemed like the person responsible for the fumble was Benson, the fumble was officially charged to Griese. Has this always been the case? If not, and if such fumbles in the past were charged to the running back, I wonder if this could account for some of the reason why fumble rates for running backs were higher in the past than they are today.

75
by Marko (not verified) :: Fri, 10/27/2006 - 12:34pm

Kurt, I guess I should have refreshed the screen before my comment about Dilfer.

76
by MIke (not verified) :: Fri, 10/27/2006 - 12:36pm

I believe Dilfer threw a pick that was called back on one of the biggest BS defensive holding calls I've ever seen. Not that I'm bitter or anything.

77
by turbohapy (not verified) :: Fri, 10/27/2006 - 4:31pm

What I don't understand about this whole Tiki thing is that *just last year* Bettis put his team in the same situation and where did that get them? To the Super Bowl.

78
by Tom Kelso (not verified) :: Fri, 10/27/2006 - 4:58pm

Dilfer threw a pass that was picked off for a TD by the Giants late in the 2nd quarter.

The turnover was negated due to a defensive holding call on Strahan (I think), who the ref decided kept Jamal Lewis from having a chance at the ball. Pretty rare to see D-holding called in this case, I agree.

If the game had been closer, this would have been a much bigger controversy, but that was pretty much the Giants' last gasp.

79
by Travis (not verified) :: Sat, 10/28/2006 - 9:52pm

The defensive holding call was on Keith Hamilton; Strahan was the one who intercepted the pass and returned it for a TD.

80
by Sid (not verified) :: Sun, 10/29/2006 - 4:02am

RE: 6

All it said was a former Cleveland Browns player. That doesn't really help identify him.

81
by Sid (not verified) :: Sun, 10/29/2006 - 4:08am

RE: 33

And Martz and Sherman were fired. At least Edwards wasn't fired. He just left the Jets in the lurch. Traitor.

82
by Tom Kelso (not verified) :: Sun, 10/29/2006 - 1:17pm

Sid,

If you read between the lines -- former Browns player who was in a position to observe 'roid use, and is talking off the record to the Baltimore Sun -- I don't think it takes CSI to figure out that you're talking about Orlando "Zeus" Brown.

83
by Travis (not verified) :: Sun, 10/29/2006 - 3:47pm

Why couldn't the unnamed former Brown, talking about how things were 20 years ago, be someone currently in Ravens management, like GM Ozzie Newsome?

84
by Sid (not verified) :: Sun, 10/29/2006 - 8:09pm

RE: 82

Looking at the article again, I actually don't think it was Zeus.