Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

Most Recent FO Features

JonesJon15.jpg

» SDA: Early Playoff Elimination Round

TCU-West Virginia and Auburn-Ole Miss might as well be early playoff elimination rounds, with the losers likely knocked out of playoff contention.

09 Mar 2007

The Week in Quotes: 2007 Free Agency Special

by Alex Carnevale

SO MUCH TALENT SO FAR FROM HOME

"We do not feel like character is an issue here. We think he's exceptional from that standpoint."

-- Titans head coach Jeff Fisher, after drafting Adam "Pac-Man" Jones in 2005. An alleged member of Jones' entourage is accused of opening fire at a strip club during NBA All-Star Weekend.

"It's hard being where we're from. He had to kind of bring his self up. I did, too. He has his boys in the street, and I might have friends in the street. But I had brothers that if it went too far, they were definitely there to check me. Pac didn't have those checks -- checks and balances."

-- fellow Titan Keith Bulluck

"We were unaware of what happened over a year ago."

-- Fisher, referring to Jones' February 2006 run-in with police.

"What does [Urbanski] get for a hard day's work? A bullet in the spine because of a jackass athlete. It's the most tragic thing I can imagine ... all because of some athlete acting like a spoiled child in our club."

-- club owner Robert Susnar

"Everywhere he's been, good people have covered up for him. Everything has been bought and paid for. Well, that's not doing justice for him as a player -- or a person. But even if you live on the edge and people say it's OK, you've still got to be accountable. There's been none of that in his life. No one has ever said 'no' to Pac-Man."

-- Jones' first agent, Gary Wichard

"The organization feels the need to be able to trust each other, its players, and once that trust is violated on a repeated basis, then one could come to their own conclusions."

-- Fisher

"I'd like people to take pause, and rather than the mob mentality kicking in, I'd like for them to sit back and say, 'Hey, he didn't do these things. He's been in the wrong situation, yeah.' But he is almost snakebit a little bit. He's been trashed in every possible forum publicly — television, the newspaper — and all for what? It is almost like there's an open call for anyone who wants to say anything negative about Adam. That's what this has become.''

-- Jones' attorney, Manny Arora (The Tennessean)

"How is it possible to be in the wrong place at the wrong time so many times?"

--Players Association executive director Gene Upshaw (ESPN.com)

Discuss this story at Extra Points.

AT THIS POINT, COREY DILLON MAY WANT TO SEE IF HE CAN PLAY A LITTLE CORNER

''Hopefully he'll see the light. He'll see the opportunity in Denver of being part of a great football team, great organization and being opposite the side of Champ Bailey. Hopefully he'll come around and say, 'Hey, this is where I want to be.' ''

-- Broncos coach Jim Bates, on Dre' Bly, acquired from the Lions and rumored to be on the move again.

"I look at the cornerback market and see the guy [Clements, who signed with San Francisco for eight years and potentially $80 million with $22 million of it guaranteed] get the big money and he is not an elite corner. Now he gets the highest paid contract in the history of the world. You wonder what's going to happen when Champ Bailey, who is the best corner in the history of the world, wants a new deal."

-- anonymous NFL pro personnel director

"This is Year Seven for me, and I've never even had a taste of the playoffs... I'm a competitor by nature, and I just want to get a taste at that next level."

-- new Niners CB Nate Clements, on his new organization on the rise. (ESPN.com)

THERE WAS A STORY/ABOUT A MAN NAMED JOEY

"Different organizations look at things differently. There was a very similar situation where Kevin Greene was released and Jason Gildon stepped in, and Kevin Greene came to Carolina and led the league in sacks the next year. We were able to pick up a football player who was still very productive -- went to the Pro Bowl."

-- Dolphins defensive coordinator Dom Capers, on new acquisition Joey Porter.

"You would say then, 'Why did that happen?' So you never really know."

-- Capers

"Certain teams, when they've been running schemes as long as they have up there in Pittsburgh -- 15 years it's been the same scheme. So they've had a long line of the Kevin Greenes, the Jason Gildons, the Joey Porters -- Pro Bowl players at those positions."

-- Capers (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette)

Discuss this story at Extra Points.

WHEN IS A BACKUP JUST A BACKUP?

"I've never agreed with that terminology, that term: mentor. My role is to be ready to play at any moment, and my role will be defined in time."

-- new Cowboys QB Brad Johnson

"They drafted Jay in the first round and he is the franchise. They want him there for the next 10 years. He is loaded with potential and talent and they are looking for more of a mentor kind of role. That mentor thing, I really kind of disagreed with that."

-- Johnson, on an opportunity with the Broncos.

"I'm not there for my health."

-- Johnson

"He already has a quarterback coach. He doesn't need another coach. My thing is to work hard in practice and have a great relationship with Tony and hopefully he has the best year of his life."

--Johnson

HE BENCH-PRESSES, HE BLOGS, HE BLOCKS--WHAT CAN'T THIS GUY DO?

"I had to get X-rays of my foot because of the minor turf toe injury, and the guy who rolled his ankle in first grade had to get an X-ray on that, too."

-- former Wisconsin offensive lineman Joe Thomas, in his combine blog. (The Sporting News)

"I think the interviews that night went well. Everyone seemed really nice and interested in what I had to say and was very complimentary. That felt great."

--Thomas

"Yes, I did have to answer the famous question, "Would you rather be a cat or a dog?" I don't know what difference that makes, but I'm not revealing my intentions now!"

--Thomas

HE SAID, STANDING IN FRONT OF FLASHING CAMERAS

"I didn't come here to be flashy, I didn't come here to stand in front of the cameras. I came here to lead by example."

-- new Falcons wideout Joe Horn

"I'm going to call them cats and talk to them. I want to get some words across to them and let them know where my heart is first. I want them to know: 'I'm not here to shine on you, man. I came here to help. I came here to be a part of something new, something that's going to take off to the next level.' "

-- Horn

"Mike is the leader of this football team. I know that, but I'm going to let him know that I'm here to help him. He's been here. He knows what it takes to win."

-- Horn

"I'm going to bring some of my professionalism to Mike, and I know he will take it inside. I'm not going to push myself or make someone do things just because I'm here. No, I want to be a brother to these guys and when I say something I want them to say, 'You know, I trust Joe.'"

-- Horn (ESPN.com)

THEY'D PROBABLY BE BETTER OFF GETTING YAO TO PLAY SPECIAL TEAMS

"They've made tremendous improvements. But dealing with the pressure that comes with this job isn't easy to teach. Nobody really understands it until you're in it and it's happening."

-- 25-year-old former Notre Dame kicker Nicholas Setta, on his trainees, Chinese natives Gao Wei, Ding Long and Shen Yalei, who the NFL hopes will represent their nation in an exhibition game.

“If anyone misses this, we'll do 20 100-yard dashes. And we'll do them if you just tap it over the bar."

-- Setta, on three extra point kicks.

"They're being thrown into one of the most pressure-filled jobs in the world. I want them to see what kind of focus they need."

-- Setta (The New York Times)

IT'S A LIFE CHOICE, LIKE SCRABBLE, OR CARBOHYDRATES

"It wasn't really about the money. It was where I wanted to live my life. It just came down where we wanted to live, it just happened to be right here."

-- new Cowboys offensive lineman Leonard Davis, on his new contract with the Boys.

"It's a reflection of supply and demand. There are only so many guys who are quality offensive linemen in the NFL. I think the offensive line is the most difficult position to come in right out of college and play."

-- Packers General Manager Ted Thompson (Washington Post)

"You just don't see very often the combination of natural ability and size that Leonard brings to the table. You don't get a chance to get a six-year veteran to only be 28 years old, to look at the future. It just glares out at you, the flexibility his skills give us, in marking what we want to do in our offensive line. All of this came to play."

-- Cowboys owner Jerry Jones, on Davis.

"They grow them bigger in Texas than anywhere."

-- Cowboys head coach Wade Phillips (DallasCowboys.com)

THEY ALSO ARE BIG IN NIGERIA APPARENTLY

"I want to be the LeBron James of the NFL in that LeBron was the youngest to come into the NBA and I hope to have as much success as he's had coming in. He carried himself pretty well, and his play has been pretty special. The advantage I have over him is that I've had four years of college."

-- 19-year-old defensive line prospect Amobi Okoye of Louisville.

"He didn't want Harvard. I said, 'What's wrong with the Ivy League?' He said, 'They don't play football too well.'"

-- Augustine Okoye, Amobi's father.

"He said, 'If I go to Louisville, I have a good chance of going to the NFL. Do you know an NFL signing bonus is more than some doctors make and could help build a children's hospital?'"

-- Augustine Okoye

"You hate to use the word overachiever. But Amobi is a guy who is always looking to achieve. I could see Amobi going to Harvard for his law degree after he's done playing football."

-- former coach John L. Smith

"He's very mature for a 19-year-old. But can he come into a locker room with 30-year-old guys? That has yet to be determined."

-- Vikings vice president of player personnel Rick Spielman (USA Today)

IF THIS WOMAN IS BUYING LOTTERY TICKETS, I WANT IN

"We looked at football this year because a lot of us around the office are big football fans. We knew Edwards was a big public speaker, so he seemed like a perfect choice."

-- Director of Constituents and Economic Relations of Fayetteville State University Emily Dickens, on Herman Edwards' upcoming speaking engagement.

"He talks about leadership and team work, and those are the types of things our students can really use. But he is not just here for our students. As the speaker series is open to the general public, we try to ensure that all speakers can attract a wide variety of individuals. Nine times out of 10 the people who attend these events aren't even students."

-- Dickens (Up & Coming)

"He's been in the big game, the Super Bowl. We talked a little about that and he said, 'I thought it was easy. My first year I get in the Super Bowl and the next thing I know I haven't been back.' I said, 'Yeah, I know. That's the feeling I had back in '80 when I went and now I haven't been back, either.'"

-- Herman Edwards, on new Chiefs linebacker Napoleon Harris. (KCChiefs.com)

HANES! FRUIT OF THE LOOM! COCOA PUFFS! SNICKERS! KFC! VIAGRA! HE'S PERFECT!

"The Patriots would want to make sure they give their sponsors first crack. I would imagine somebody like a Dunkin' Donuts would seem to be a natural fit, with him working all hours of the night and them pushing their coffee."

-- talent marketer Brian Nelson, on Bill Belichick, who recently started his own corporation.

"You tend to judge the speakers on the way they speak rather than the way they coached football. It's a different skill set and you've got to devote yourself to it. But he's a very successful man. I wouldn't put anything past him."

-- talent agent for a speaker's bureau (The Patriot Ledger)

"The more he worked, the more I worked on my script. I was never so well prepared. I went in and nailed the show that day. It's usually, 'Thank you very much. We'll call you.' And I owe it to Bill Belichick. He's a stickler."

-- comedian Lenny Clarke, on a plane ride next to BB. (Boston Globe)

AWESOME, I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR A GOOD BATHROOM READ -- WHAT'S IT CALLED?

"We have Bible study class every Wednesday after practice. We have Bible study once a week in the off-season and do the same thing. A lot of guys liked the book."

-- Cardinals wide receiver Anquan Boldin

"Our coaches like us to stay active and there is no easier way to stay active than basketball. It is also a form of plyometrics and we build camaraderie with the players on our team."

-- Anquan Boldin, on playing basketball in the off-season.

"I have never had alcohol."

-- Boldin (The New York Times)

THE REST

"He was a person that definitely added a lot of levity to the press conferences, even though he asked a lot of very difficult questions. He had a unique way of phrasing some of his opinions and questions, but he certainly added a flavor to the conferences that was very unique and I think we all came to appreciate his sense of humor, which at times was self-deprecating, but also he could definitely be tough and put you on the spot, which he did many times to me, but in a respectful way."

-- Belichick, on recently deceased Hartford Courant writer Alan Greenberg (Boston Herald)

"I was supposed to fly in and fly out without anybody knowing."

-- kicker Mike Vanderjagt, on a meeting with the Saints. (NOLA.com)

"I saw some great receivers out there on the women's [national flag football] team. The Patriots could use a few good receivers."

-- Patriots owner Bob Kraft, announcing the first Israeli professional football league. (Jerusalem Post)

"I'm always going to be a scout. I said at the press conference, 'I will always be a scout.' You will never lose me as a scout. What I know is scouting. But so much more goes into being the general manager than just being a scout. That's how I grew up – as a scout. That's what I know. So you will never lose me in that capacity. I'll always scout to a degree. You obviously can't scout as much as you would like to. But I'll always be a scout at heart."

-- new Giants general manager Jerry Reese (Giants.com)

"I know on the outside it looks like we want to dismantle the team. It has nothing to do with that. We want to keep this the best possible football team that we can. And that's what we're trying to do."

-- Bears GM Jerry Angelo (Minneapolis Star-Tribune)

send your favorites to quotes at football outsiders dot com

Posted by: Alex Carnevale on 09 Mar 2007

83 comments, Last at 16 Mar 2007, 2:38pm by Pats Hater

Comments

1
by James, London (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 1:15pm

“We do not feel like character is an issue here. We think he’s exceptional from that standpoint.�

That is an-alltimer. Right up there with the Ron Borges quote about drafting Richard Seymour.

2
by James, London (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 1:28pm

And yes, I missed Herm. The favt that he has a speaking engagement is just a bonus.

3
by Pat (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 1:42pm

You wonder what’s going to happen when Champ Bailey, who is the best corner in the history of the world, wants a new deal.�

Champ Bailey, 2004: 7 years, $63M, $18M guaranteed.
Nate Clements, 2007: 8 years, $80M, $22M guaranteed.

Why in the world do people think Bailey's going to be pissed off? Because Nate Clements got a contract for 20% higher, three years later? Big deal. It's 3 years later. If Bailey invested the guaranteed money well, it might be worth more than $22M now. (yes, that's being ridiculously simple).

Plus, when Denver is forced to restructure Bailey's contract, Bailey'll be 31, and might actually see some of the backend portion of that contract. Clements will be 34, and will never see that.

4
by MJK (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 1:48pm

Re 1:

And now, six years later, Seymore is a 5- or 6 year Pro-bowler, and Borges is suspended and jobless due to plaigarism...

5
by MJK (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 1:50pm

Breaking news:

Calvin Johnson is now projected to drop at least eight spots in the draft because he answered "Well, I don't see myself as either a cat or a dog. Maybe a salamander...yeah, definitely a salamander."

6
by MJK (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 1:54pm

Kraft's comment got me wondering...

Some positions, like WR, do not demand a person with particularly large uppper body strength, but instead demand agility, speed, and precision. Consequently, I bet there are some women out there that have the physical tools to play in the NFL. With women's football starting to take a bigger hold at the high school level, I wonder if we will every see women in the NFL... or at least a women's profesisonal league with some national recognition (a la the WNBA). As I understand it, there is no rule or regulation in the NFL, or in the CBA, that explicitly bars women (but I think that fact is according to TMQ, who thinks that theoretical physicists are going to destroy the universe, so maybe I should check it...)

7
by Trieu (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 2:01pm

The Nate Clements "playoffs" quote made me wonder about the longest post-season droughts (Wikipedia rules). Looking at the list, I feel that I ought to wake up everyday and give thanks to Bob Kraft, Bill Belichick, and Tom Brady.

The Bills are a depressing franchise, but the Lions surpass any other team in suck. Not only are they in a seven-year drought, with its current management in place, there's no hope anywhere on the horizon. Somebody at FO needs to give MDS a hug.

8
by Charles the Philly Homer (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 2:07pm

6:

Well, world-class female sprinters and runners consistently run significantly slower times than world-class male sprinters. I'm not saying it's not possible, but if the Olympics are any indication women just aren't as fast as men in general. Which would be a real problem in a world that values 40 times so highly.

Not attempting to be sexist here, just injecting some analysis.

9
by James, London (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 2:08pm

"Somebody at FO needs to give MDS a hug."

Or a gun and Matt Millens' address. There's not a jury in the US that would convict.

10
by doktarr (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 2:13pm

After reading his profile, I'm now officially a Amobi Okoye fan. It's awesome to see an athlete who completely understands what a gift his talents are.

11
by JasonK (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 2:17pm

new Giants general manager Floyd Reese

Floyd Reese is the Titans former GM. The Giants' new GM is Jerry Reese. Based on their appearances (read: skin pigmentation) they're not related.

12
by vijay (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 2:19pm

Re: 6 - In light of the Annika Sorenstam controversy a few years ago of her playing on a PGA tour event, I remember reading an article that stated that the NFL does not have a rule prohibiting a woman from playing. But I still think that the only positions that a woman can probably play are K and P, because they don't take the physical abuse that other positions take. 99.9% of men can't handle the physical abuse that the other positions handle.

I think that a woman, especially a soccer player potentially, could play K. That would be pretty neat. But even though WRs aren't the strongest people in the world, I think the beating across the middle would make it moot. Additionally, I think the WR position is changing because of freakish players built like Andre Johnson. He runs a 4.35 or so, and is 240! Almost no men are built that way, and the very few, like him, Terrell Owens, etc, are the new future for that position. I do think that a woman today could have played a WR position maybe 25 years ago because the size of players was that much smaller.

13
by jack (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 2:42pm

6, 8: Good grief, it's not just speed - can you imagine a woman blocking downfield? It seems to me that a woman would be more likely to meet the physical demands of baseball than football but none has managed it, even though there has been women's softball for many years. And yes, I know a woman played on an independent minor league team a couple of years ago. She was clearly out of her element - it was really just a publicity stunt. A woman might have a better chance than a theoretical physicist, though.

14
by Tom (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 3:22pm

Being a wideout takes speed, agility, and jumping. The same skills required to play basketball. How is the WNBA going these days?

15
by mactbone (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 3:24pm

Don't ever doubt Holly Mangold.

16
by JasonC23 (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 4:05pm

I think a female soccer player becoming a kicker is bound to happen before too long. I mean, if Kathy Ireland can do it, it can't be that hard, right?

17
by SGT Ben (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 4:38pm

Unfortunately, we probably won't see women athletes competing with men for a long time. Yes, women are taller, stronger, faster than they were 20-30 years ago...and today's top female athletes could certainly compete with male athletes from 20-30 years ago, but Men have grown in size/speed/strength in that period too. I don't see women competing with men in athletics for quite some time. Kickers, possibly. Punters, aye. But women just are built (genetically) to do things the way men do. I figure we'll find a pregnant man about the same time that we find providing real competition to mens professional sports.

18
by dryheat (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 4:45pm

I think the most logical place for a woman in a major team sport is an NHL goalie. That 16 year old from the Finland Olympic team has some sick skills.

Does anybody else think that Pac Man's presence is what actually transfers an otherwise harmless scene into a "wrong place, wrong time" scenario?

I wonder if Jerry Reese is still going to scout a bit?

19
by fromanchu (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 5:07pm

re 18
or julie "the cat" gaffney

20
by SJM (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 5:17pm

Considering that many kickers these days, especially the younger ones, are 6-0 or 6-1 and weight 200 pounds, I don't think we'll see any female kickers in the NFL anytime soon.

21
by dryheat (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 5:24pm

#19

Is she related to Jabbar?

22
by blahh (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 5:54pm

Regarding pacman jones, to paraphrase chris rock: "whatever happened to just being crazy."

23
by billsfan (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 6:28pm

Hopefully Amobi Okoye can look forward to a nice bone-crushing lead-block from Jim Finn. Besides, it's not like DE Marcellus Wiley was taken in the second round or anything, and he only played for the perennial Ivy doormat.

And a conference that has UConn, Rutgers, and, well, Louisville ain't much better than I-AA, anyway.

24
by ineedawittyname (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 6:47pm

"Herman Edwards, on new Chiefs defensive back Napoleon Harris."

isn't napoleon harris a linebacker?

25
by RecoveringPackerFan (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 6:52pm

Napoleon Harris is definitely not a defensive back, though the image of him trying to cover Javon Walker down the field might be amusing.

26
by Alex (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 7:09pm

"Considering that many kickers these days, especially the younger ones, are 6-0 or 6-1 and weight 200 pounds, I don’t think we’ll see any female kickers in the NFL anytime soon."

Why would that matter? Their kickers, what difference could height and weight possibly have? If they can kick the ball farther and more accurately than the current starting kickers, what would stop them from succeeding as NFL kickers?

27
by Chris (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 7:18pm

Women have a lower center of gravity ( which would be an advantage) but realistically the only position they could play in the league would be P or K. On second thought, maybe some of those MEN in the WNBA COULD play?

What do you want Jeff Fisher to say when he drafts the kid? "Well, he is a thug, but we're just going to have to take a chance on him because he's THAT good". Or course Fisher will say something like " he has been a pleasure to work with" or something of that nature.

28
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 7:18pm

"Why would that matter? Their kickers, what difference could height and weight possibly have? If they can kick the ball farther and more accurately than the current starting kickers, what would stop them from succeeding as NFL kickers?"

Because height and weight generally are indicative of leg length and strength.

Start looking at women who are 6' or taller. What are we at? 5% of the female population? Now find the ones over 170lbs. Less than 1%. Now find the ones who are strong enough to kick a football 60+ yards. Good luck.

The problem is, if theres a female soccer player who can kick the ball 60 yards, theres probably a couple dozen male ones who can kick it 65.

29
by Chris (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 7:19pm

Martin Gramatica and his little brother were the first females to play in the NFL.

30
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 7:29pm

19

Wasnt that the girl from like Mighty Ducks 6? or somethign along those lines?

31
by Marko (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 7:33pm

29: I thought Terry Glenn was the first female, at least according to Bill Parcells.

32
by Alex (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 8:13pm

"Because height and weight generally are indicative of leg length and strength."

Maybe that's true, but there are plenty of exceptions, and it's not like the only information that teams are allowed to use when choosing players is their weight and height. They are allowed to actually watch the players kick! This allows them to find those people who are good as kickers despite being short/light. If a team sees a short female kicker that is very good at kicking, why would that team not sign her? What would the reasoning be, that she wouldn't be able to adjust to the speed and physicality of the NFL?

"Start looking at women who are 6′ or taller. What are we at? 5% of the female population? Now find the ones over 170lbs. Less than 1%."

1%? I don't think it's quite that low, but even if it is, I'm sure there are at least a few women out there who could kick better than some of the kickers that start in the NFL right now. And why would you restrict the group to women who are 6' and 170+ lbs? Why not just restrict the group to women who are good at kicking? Why the blind reliance on correlations between height/weight and skill? Would you have started Rob Johnson over Doug Flutie? After all Johnson was 6-4 and 217, while Flutie was only 5-10 and 176.

"The problem is, if theres a female soccer player who can kick the ball 60 yards, theres probably a couple dozen male ones who can kick it 65."

Are you sure? Have you checked this? It strikes me as odd that you seem to think that stating an assumption provides evidence that you are correct. I'm not saying that it's an unreasonable assumption, but still, it's not proof.

33
by the K (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 8:28pm

“He’s very mature for a 19-year-old. But can he come into a locker room with 30-year-old guys? That has yet to be determined.�

Yeah, that must be a much harder adjustment then being 15 and walking to a Div 1A college locker room.

34
by jack (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 8:32pm

Is the WNBA still going these days? How long before any of those women play in the NBA?

35
by Alex (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 8:34pm

#14: "Being a wideout takes speed, agility, and jumping."

Yeah, but it's also important to have good hands, and I bet a lot of women...I should stop now, this is supposed to be a family friendly site.

36
by zlionsfan (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 8:40pm

Re 18: Like Manon Rhéaume? She demonstrated several years ago (um, okay, 15 years ago) that it's possible to be an exceptional female goaltender who simply can't compete at the same level with men. (She played a few minor league games and a couple of NHL exhibition games, and basically sucked - save percentage in the 80s.)

But the problem with using her as an example, or Katie Hnida, or Ila Borders, is that we don't know if they are the best their gender had to offer at the time, or the only ones willing to take a chance, and we've really no way of finding out.

For that matter, what would be the point? Money, I guess. But aside from that, why would you rather be a mediocre goalie in the NHL than a star goalie in women's hockey? Would you rather have Michelle Wie's currently-projected career or Annika Sorenstam's career. (career. I said career.)

37
by Randy S. (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 9:36pm

33 - The craziest thing about the Okoye quotes: the ones from his father must have occurred before he chose Louisville. So he was 14 and talking about NFL signing bonuses and building hospitals.

When I was 14, I was talking about Beavis and Butthead.

38
by dryheat (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 10:04pm

Well #36, I'm willing to bet a mediocre goalie in the NHL pays the bills, and a star in a woman's league has another part-time job.

39
by Vince (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 11:09pm

I think #29 is the first worthwhile post Chris has made.

#37: I'm 31, and I still talk about Beavis and Butt-head.

40
by julian (not verified) :: Fri, 03/09/2007 - 11:28pm

To put this male/female thing into perspective, the Canadian Olympic Women's hockey team (the perrenial best women's team in the world) has played non-contact tune up games against local male Midget Triple AAA teams (15 to 17 years old).

The ladies are far far away from making a climb to anything close to the professional level.

41
by VarlosZ (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 2:44am

I'd be in trouble if I got the 'cat or dog' question. Answering truthfully, I'd rather be a cat because I like the idea of curling up next to something warm and taking 17 naps a day. I'm pretty sure that's not the answer they're looking for.

42
by Harris (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 9:44am

Cat or dog, what difference does it make so long as I can lick my nuts?

43
by mb (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 9:55am

zlionsfan: Yeah, I was going to bring up Katie Hnida as well b/c I was surprised no one had mentioned her in the discussion about hypothetical female Ks, especially since she's the closest a woman has come to D-I football or the NFL. She wasn't great but she was good enough to make the U of New Mexico team as a walk-on. I guess her story doesn't really prove anything except that Gary Barnett, who I remember well from growing up in Evanston during his glory years at Northwestern, is a total scumbag.

I'm fairly sure that a female genetic freak (and I don't mean that in a derogatory fashion at all, nearly every pro male athlete is a genetic freak) is out there somewhere who could kick decently for an NFL team but I really doubt a woman is going to do so any time soon for several reasons. Most girls are not encouraged to play sports the same way that boys are and none grow up playing football, so not only would a woman have to have the talent, she would also have had to have motivated herself to take up football and probably work twice as hard to be succcessful. She'd also have to overcome the inevitable skepticism of college recruiters and NFL scouts and GMs, not to mention the likely derision and possible abuse in the locker room like Hnida, all Kathy Ireland fantasies aside.

As far as the coming trend in the WNBA Candace Parker is going to redefine the women's game. She's 6-5 and can both dunk and handle like a point guard. She could, I think, compete in men's Div I-AA or Div II and might even be able to play on a small school Div I team in a minor conference. She's also an exception and there are probably only 2 or 3 players in the WNBA with anything approaching her physical gifts. When I see her and Tweety Nolan from the WNBA play the thought that comes to mind is that they play like men, just not NBA level athletes. As someone noted, 99% or more of men can't take the phsyical abuse of the NFL either.

44
by OMO (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 2:48pm

Re: 39

Worthwhile? Well I guess relative to the rest of the crap he usually posts.

Beavis and Butt-head? Grow up man.

Re: 42

Uhhhhh. Huhhuh. He said nuts.

45
by Peter Libero (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 2:58pm

3: Well I don't think it's a question of whether Champ is going to be upset about how much money he's making... the guy was wondering how big a contract Champ is going to command when he's negotiating. Is it going to be Peyton-like or something?

32: Do you really need studies confirming that men are considerably stronger and faster than women, even at the same size and weight? They're out there, I'm sure; women naturally carry a higher percentage body fat and have less muscle mass.
Consider the height problem alone: 11% of American men are 6' or taller, compared to 0.3% of women (according to the Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey).

Sure, Flutie was good (not great or anything), but he'd be considerably stronger than a woman who's 5'7", and probably stronger than a woman who's 6'1".

For a woman to be enough of a genetic freak to compete with men in professional football, she would have to be much more extreme for her gender than any athlete we know of in men. I just don't think it's likely to happen, ever. Maybe at kicker, but she would be a weak-legged, accuracy-based kicker like an old Morten Anderson, not Janikowski.

46
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 3:35pm

"For a woman to be enough of a genetic freak to compete with men in professional football, she would have to be much more extreme for her gender than any athlete we know of in men."

Exactly. Football players are the tail end of the distribution of males. They are the absolute extreme. The tail end of women athletes tends to fall right at the start of good male athletes.

Look at mile runners for an example. The current male record is 3:43. The current female record is, IIRC, 4:15. On my high school track team, my senior year, we had 4 guys who could run a mile in less than 4:15. We had another 5 or 6 who were in the 4:15-4:30 range, and all would have been competitive on a world level if they were women.

Men just have too much of a physical advantage.

47
by bravehoptoad (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 4:17pm

A friend of mine in the Army told me that a good rule of thumb is that a woman of the same height and mass as a man will have 60% of his upper body strength and 80% of his lower body strength. Of course, women in general are smaller and also tend to work out a lot less.

The sports where women can compete with men seem to be the endurance sports. I'm from Alaska, and our biggest sport is like that, sled-dog racing. Believe me, it's no walk in the park to mush a thousand miles cross country when it's 40 below zero, but the women compete with the men and sometimes win it all.

I run marathons, and at an amateur level, women and men are competitive. My little running group of 50 is about half men and half women. I'm above average, doing about a 3:45 marathon, but there are plenty of women in our group who smoke me. Our best runner is a woman who pulls a 3:25.

At the top end that's far from true, but it seems that the further out the distance goes, the more likely it is that women can compete, e.g., I believe there are only two people who've run 200+ miles at once, and one of those is a man, and one a woman.

48
by Vince (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 4:56pm

44: Uhhhhhhhhhhh, huh-huh. Uh, huh-huh-huh.

49
by empty13 (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 7:48pm

Problem is, in many athletic endeavors, certainly in football, the emphasis is not on "marathon activity" but on explosively quick and fast movement. And all too often, feats of strength; this is where upper body strength comes in. Relative to the military, Elaine Donnelly and Fred Reed have each written about different aspects of this extensively (link to one).

50
by MilkmanDanimal (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 8:17pm

I think Mr. Reese should maybe do some scouting. I mean, it sounds like he hasn't done enough scouting. Can I mention the word "scout" 9 or 10 more times? I like the word "scout". And "scouting". Has he done some "scouting"?

51
by Alex (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 8:42pm

#50:
Yeah, Reese definitely needs to do more scouting. Maybe he could do some scouting of female football players to see if they could make it in the NFL.

52
by Josh (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 11:16pm

47:A friend of mine in the Army told me that a good rule of thumb is that a woman of the same height and mass as a man will have 60% of his upper body strength and 80% of his lower body strength. Of course, women in general are smaller and also tend to work out a lot less.

The sports where women can compete with men seem to be the endurance sports. I’m from Alaska, and our biggest sport is like that, sled-dog racing. Believe me, it’s no walk in the park to mush a thousand miles cross country when it’s 40 below zero, but the women compete with the men and sometimes win it all.

I run marathons, and at an amateur level, women and men are competitive. My little running group of 50 is about half men and half women. I’m above average, doing about a 3:45 marathon, but there are plenty of women in our group who smoke me. Our best runner is a woman who pulls a 3:25.

At the top end that’s far from true, but it seems that the further out the distance goes, the more likely it is that women can compete, e.g., I believe there are only two people who’ve run 200+ miles at once, and one of those is a man, and one a woman.

Endurance and XC racing are very true. Sprints men are usually quicker, but the gap is narrower as the distances increase. I knew a few girls under 19 minutes in the 5k--there's a a few more guys under 17 mins. but remember not many boys/girls can break 20 at all.

What about Holly Mangold? She's only a junior in H.S. but a 300-lb DL. It wasn't long ago that the NFL (1980s) viewed a 300-lb DL as a rarity.

53
by empty13 (not verified) :: Sat, 03/10/2007 - 11:43pm

Weight alone is not muscle.

54
by Peter Libero (not verified) :: Sun, 03/11/2007 - 1:35am

52: Yeah, I've read some about supermarathons (50, 100, 200 miles) and they have a lot of women, even older women, who compete as well as men. Extreme endurance stuff isn't dependent on speed or strength or size... in fact, smallness might make it easier because it's less mass to move/hurt your joints.

55
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Sun, 03/11/2007 - 2:32am

"Endurance and XC racing are very true. Sprints men are usually quicker, but the gap is narrower as the distances increase. I knew a few girls under 19 minutes in the 5k–there’s a a few more guys under 17 mins. but remember not many boys/girls can break 20 at all."

If you can't run under 20, you shouldnt be running cross country. The problem is, you regularly have highschool guys clocking sub 15m times. Girls never do that.

56
by Norm (not verified) :: Sun, 03/11/2007 - 10:40pm

RE: 3

And the last year of the Clements contract is a phony year. It's essentially 7 years, $63 million.
Very similar to Bailey's deal. Bailey is better, but he signed his contract in a different market environment.

57
by GBS (not verified) :: Mon, 03/12/2007 - 9:00am

The Gramaticas? I thought Chris Everett was the first female NFL player.

58
by Chris (not verified) :: Mon, 03/12/2007 - 12:16pm

Did you ever see the Jim Rome/Jim Everett interview? That was the funniest thing I ever saw on TV.

59
by Matt Millen (not verified) :: Mon, 03/12/2007 - 3:09pm

"My role is to be ready to play at any moment, and my role will be defined in time.�

– new Cowboys QB Brad Johnson"

Brad Johnson is in luck, Dallas is in desperate need of a first-string place-kick holder.

60
by Chris (not verified) :: Mon, 03/12/2007 - 3:16pm

Matt Millen, I'm suprised to see you on Football outsiders. I'd expect to see you playing games on some kids site like Nickelodeon.com or scouting out the latest college receivers, but not on a site like FO. Happy failing.

61
by enlightened one (not verified) :: Mon, 03/12/2007 - 4:01pm

You sexist pigs. How dare you suggest that there are differences between man and woman? That there are things that men in general can do better than women?????
Why don't you guys go try giving birth?

62
by Matt Millen (not verified) :: Mon, 03/12/2007 - 5:10pm

I have football outsiders in my bookmark tabs and have not been able to delete it. I mistakenly clicked it when I meant to visit ratemypoo.com.

And I scouted out Holly Mangold and even considered giving her an official team try-out, but then I saw she wasn't very good in the forty. I'd love a 300 lbs wide receiver, but she needs to be faster if she is going to keep up with the fast pace of our Great Lakes Offense.

63
by zip (not verified) :: Mon, 03/12/2007 - 5:18pm

If you can’t run under 20, you shouldnt be running cross country.

QFT. Whoever said guys have trouble breaking 20 is full of crap -- most guys running cross country can do that, I know this because I can't, and as a result I sucked, back in the day. Thanks for reminding me.

64
by OMO (not verified) :: Mon, 03/12/2007 - 9:00pm

Re: 61

As the Chief Delegate for Men Everywhere.

If men had babies...there would be nothing but only children in the world.

The thirst for sex would get us knocked up once...but one time would be all it took for total and complete sterilization.

65
by Drew (not verified) :: Tue, 03/13/2007 - 1:12am

Re: Holley Mangold

Exactly as post 53 said. Weight, in and of itself, means very little. I'm 6'2" and used to weigh about 290. Trust me, no one was approaching me about being a lineman in college, let alone the NFL.

I've seen Holley Mangold on TV, and she looks strong in the legs, but she doesn't look all that strong in the upper body. Her own website says her goal this year is to bench 250 once. She's also "only" 5'9", meaning that unless she grows more, she's probably already carrying more weight than her frame can adequately support. I'll be surprised if she plays D1 football.

Then again, I don't know that that's even her goal. Everything I've ever seen about her says she plays football just because she likes it, not to be a trailblazer.

66
by Chris (not verified) :: Tue, 03/13/2007 - 9:48am

61- I gave birth to a few 6 pound and 7 ounce lincoln logs this morning, does that count?

67
by Chris (not verified) :: Tue, 03/13/2007 - 9:53am

65- How come people don't consider Quality when considering D-Lineman. If Johnny Tackle weighs 290, and another guy weighs 310 it's really not THAT big of a difference, but fans love the 310 pound guy.

Well what if the 290 pound guy is stronger, faster, and built like a rock, and the 310 pound guy is really a 260 pound guy with 50 pounds of extra fat? People always say things like, " this DT is a beast, he weighs 330". Maybe he's just a big fat ass.

Look at a guy like Kris Jenkins who is a 300 pound tackle that can dunk a basketball, or an athletic guy like Warren Sapp in his prime. You don't have to have some guy like Gilbert Brown who is approaching 400 pounds to be effective.

68
by turgy22 (not verified) :: Tue, 03/13/2007 - 10:36am

Re: Women in the NFL
I agree that the first female football player in the NFL will probably be a kicker. The biggest hurdle for women isn't size or strength, but development. Not a lot of young girls are encouraged to play football, and that's unlikely to change any time in the future. However, most pro kickers got their start in soccer and tried out for the football team in high school to start their kicking careers. So eventually, there will be a woman with the talent to play at the professional level, although it will probably happen at the AFL level first, where accuracy is more paramount than leg strength and punting isn't necessary at all.
I don't think women will make it in other positions, however, barring some dramatic breakthroughs in genetic engineering. No doubt, there are women strong enough, fast enough, and agile enough to play a whole host of positions, but injury is a serious concern. Women, in general, are more prone to broken bones and have a much higher risk of developing bone deficiencies (like osteoperosis) later in life. It will take a whole lot of luck for a girl to make it all the way through high school and major college without getting injured at any position other than kicker.

69
by DrewTS (not verified) :: Tue, 03/13/2007 - 12:56pm

Re 68

That's a good point about the possibility of a female kicker in the AFL. I don't think it's even possible to have a kick go over 60 yards in the AFL (please correct me if I'm wrong), so leg strength takes a back seat to accuracy, which would theoretically be more even between genders. So in that sense I wouldn't be too surprised if there were some women's soccer players out there who could placekick at the AFL level. Unfortunately, that would mean they'd have to cover kicks too. I wouldn't want to be around for all the negative backlash if one of them got crushed and destroyed on a kick return.

Re 67

Exactly. But of course, if the difference between the 290 guy and the 310 guy is 20 pounds of muscle, that is a big difference. But more often, I think the difference between 290 and 310 is mostly fat.

70
by Kachunk (not verified) :: Tue, 03/13/2007 - 1:04pm

"I agree that the first female football player in the NFL will probably be a kicker. The biggest hurdle for women isn’t size or strength, but development."

You're out of your mind. Or you've never tried to compete against females. It's not even close. I've played soccer against girls who are far more skilled them I am (Top-ranked D1 college soccer program, I was a mediocre high-school player).

It was actually a fair contest, because I was stronger than they were, and a little bit faster, especially in the first couple steps. The guys on my team who were actually pretty good were making these women look foolish (now keep in mind maybe one of these guys actually went on to play D1 soccer). So middle tier high school men are significantly better than top tier college women. And soccer is a sport which is far more dependent on skill than football. In football raw strength, size and speed all matter far more.

There's no way a woman will ever play (succesfully) in the NFL at any position other than kicker. And kicker's pretty unlikely. I just don't think those who are speculating about this fully understand the disparity in athleticism between men and women. It's huge.

71
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Tue, 03/13/2007 - 1:38pm

"There’s no way a woman will ever play (succesfully) in the NFL at any position other than kicker. And kicker’s pretty unlikely. I just don’t think those who are speculating about this fully understand the disparity in athleticism between men and women. It’s huge"

Agree, 100%.

Just to give an even more ridiculous example. I picked up folkstyle wrestling in college(via a club, not the D1 school I went to). I wasnt very good at the time, but at one point, I was matched up against a girl who was a national champion female wrestler, in the same weight class as me.

I tech falled her in the 1st round. IE, I, who'd been wrestling for 6 months, was so much stronger than a girl who had been wrestling for almost 10 years, and was technically proficient enough to be a national champion, that I could take her down at will.

I was just too strong, and too fast for her, and I'm a wuss.

That being said, I dont think there'll ever be a female kicker. She'd have to be better than any male kicker available just to justify the team chemistry issues it could cause, etc. I just think, by the time a woman can reliably hit a 45yd fieldgoal, me will be reliably hitting 55 yarders.

72
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Tue, 03/13/2007 - 1:40pm

by me, I meant men. I'll never kick a 55 yarder.

73
by Chris (not verified) :: Tue, 03/13/2007 - 2:13pm

It really doesn't require some riddulous leg strength for a 45 yard kick. A female could potentially kick in the NFL. It is likley that she would be more of the older Morten Anderson variety, and less of the Janikowski but who knows.

It's not like the man/women differences are just a tiny factor. Remember the NFL isn't just any old men, these are guys that make a normal person go to shame. There are people in the league with Olympic sprinter speed, Power lifting strentgh, and top notch hand/eye coordination. I'd love to see some average people try and catch some of those bullets these quarterbacks throw. Brett Favre breaks his receivers fingers. I believe I saw some game show in Japan where Favre was throwing passes to some average people and it was hilarious. One guy was holding a pad about 20 yards away and he knocked the guy over! The NFL players are the top 1% of all men. There are superstar Heisman players that turn into complete busts in the league.

Before you worry about a woman making it to the NFL, wait for a female of at least AVERAGE, or STARTER quality in college football.

74
by Oldcat (not verified) :: Tue, 03/13/2007 - 3:00pm

There is another issue no one has mentioned. Women's bones are far less robust, and thus when hit by a man they are far more likely to be injured than a man of similar size. This means that even if the skills are matched, the injury risk of a woman P or K in a field full of men means you either lose a potential tackler on special teams or run a risk of losing the P or K to injury.

75
by David (not verified) :: Tue, 03/13/2007 - 3:08pm

The NFL players are the top 1% of all men

Way more exclusive than that. These are the 2,000 best football players, out of 28 million men ages 20-34 (the handiest age groups I'd consider likely NFL contenders, according to the 2000 census). That's the top seven thousandths of the top 1% of the most physically able segment of the population. It's the very, very end of the speed/strength/weight/whatever measurable you want to single out distribution, and the upper bound of that distribution - the "genetic freak" level - just isn't as high for women as it is for men.

that said, I also wouldn't be too surprised to see a female placekicker who can compete on the NFL level, although she might end up an Andersen/Vanderjagt type who doesn't do kickoffs (where brute force appears to be more important than accuracy, outside of the don't-kick-it-OOB thing).

76
by Chris (not verified) :: Wed, 03/14/2007 - 9:17am

OK, but before you start talking NFL, show me some women who could even START at Ohio State, Florida, USC, Texas, Oklahoma, LSU, Penn State, ND, etc. Besides Kicker.

77
by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Wed, 03/14/2007 - 9:54am

Chris, show me one who could even start at Kicker, at one of those schools.

78
by Chris (not verified) :: Wed, 03/14/2007 - 10:43am

What percentage of college kids go on to play Pro football? Less than 1%?

What pct. of college STARTERS go on to play Pro football? I'd still say less than 1%.

What pct. of college starters at big time schools go on to play pro? It depends on who you classify as a big time school.

Ok, so now show me a female even jump into that potential 1% category before we start talking about a female pro.

79
by Sid (not verified) :: Wed, 03/14/2007 - 5:27pm

The only positions women could play would be kicker and punter, and I don't think that there are female kickers/punters out there good enough to beat out all the male candidates for the very limited amount of K/P openings in the NFL.

80
by Yaguar (not verified) :: Thu, 03/15/2007 - 1:08am

There won't be women in the NFL unless some sort of crazy cyborg thing gets created.

81
by Chris (not verified) :: Thu, 03/15/2007 - 11:06am

Yaguar-

Maybe Robo punter can have a girlfriend....

FEMALE Robo kicker!

82
by Dan Riley (not verified) :: Thu, 03/15/2007 - 1:19pm

Late Entry:
"Yes, weird as it is, and I say weird because usually you know a few guys on a few teams, but there were a number of guys that I knew, former players and present players, that have played with the New England organization. A lot of the guys, I didn’t hear one thing negative about the organization. Everybody spoke highly of everyone, from the coach to the owner Mr. [Robert] Kraft. I'm really looking forward to getting up there and helping this team win. I talked with Ty Law. I talked with Deion Branch. Tebucky Jones. Mel Mitchell. I just talked with Artrell Hawkins a couple of days ago. Everyone spoke highly of the whole organization, so I'm looking forward to getting up there and doing my part."
--Donte Stallworth

File it away, Pats Haters, so on the next round of attacks you can abandon the Gulag in Foxboro meme and focus on the real issues, like how the Golden Boy only wins because the defense is so good and The Genius has a lousy personality.

83
by Pats Hater (not verified) :: Fri, 03/16/2007 - 2:38pm

Hi I'm here. What do you want and what do you mean?