Audibles at the Line

Unfiltered in-game observations by Football Outsiders staff

Audibles at the Line: Week 12

compiled by Andrew Potter

Each Sunday, the FO staff sends around emails about the games that each of us are watching. We share information about the games that the rest of the group might not be watching, ask questions, and keep everyone else informed about which games they might want to tune into (if they can).

On Monday, we compile a digest of those emails and produce this feature. By its nature, it can be disjointed and dissimilar to the other articles on the site.

While these emails are generally written with Audibles in mind, they do not represent a standard review of all the games each week. That means we aren't going to cover every game, or every important play. We watch the games that we, as fans, are interested in watching, so your favorite team's game might not be covered to your fullest desires or even at all. (If you are a Steelers or Patriots fan, you are probably in luck; if you are a Bills fan, not so much.) We have no intention of adding new authors solely to cover every game on a given Sunday, nor will we watch a different game from the ones that we're personally interested in watching just to ensure that Audibles covers every game.

Oakland Raiders 17 at Baltimore Ravens 34

Derrik Klassen: Who is to say if it will last, but Oakland's offense is already off to a good start with an opening-drive touchdown vs. what is (used to be?) a solid Baltimore defense. The drive was not gimmicky via good field position or a busted coverage, either. Oakland just marched down the field with passes to different depths, end-arounds, and even a fourth-down conversion in Baltimore territory. Jon Gruden's offense deserved that score as much as any. Still, they'll need to score off the script because Baltimore's defense should tighten up.

Lamar Jackson has played pretty darn good today, but he's still a rookie and the growing pains were bound to show up. On a third-and-10, Jackson tried to fit a ball in near the sticks, but an underneath defender swooped in, tipped the ball up, and allowed another Oakland defender to pick off the pass. Occasionally not taking underneath defenders into account was a problem for Jackson in college, so it's no surprise it showed up in his second start. Hopefully he learned a lesson with that one.

Dave Bernreuther: I would disagree that Lamar Jackson has played well thus far; inaccurate throws have cost them at least two drives independent of the bad interception thrown directly to the defender. Just before half, a good throw to Michael Crabtree would have had a shot at being completed into tight coverage, but he threw much too far infield. He lacked Joe Flacco's touch on the underthrown ball that causes the defensive back to run into the receiver, apparently, as well as his luck; it popped back up into the air for Gareon Conley to gather an easy interception. The pick itself was unlucky, but the decision to throw was questionable. Only a perfect ball would have been completed there.

He has actually been unlucky even when he has thrown a perfect ball, though. He dropped one nicely in down the right sideline for a 74-yard gain to Mark Andrews ... but Andrews is not exactly fleet afoot. His run after the catch was one of the few times when Chris Berman's "rumbling bumbling stumbling" call wouldn't be annoying, given how accurate it would have been. And so despite being the only person on the screen at the time he caught the ball, he was caught from behind inside the 10, and instead of the touchdown, the Ravens only ended up with another field goal.

New York Giants 22 at Philadelphia Eagles 25

Bryan Knowles: It might be a series of terrible opponents (San Francisco and Tampa Bay), but the Giants offense has looked ... more competent the last few weeks. It takes time for a new offense to really set in, and maybe it has just taken a few months for the team to really understand and adapt to Mike Shula's offense. The Giants took their first drive 75 yards in nine plays and easily punched the ball into the end zone (though they missed the two-point conversion attempt). It feels weird that the Giants now have the highest weighted DVOA in the NFC East (post-Alex Smith injury), but they have passed the eye test so far.

Scott Kacsmar: This is going to be a tough slate to find a good game. The Giants started with a touchdown, but missed the two-point conversion. You'd think the Eagles would want a good answer to not stay in a hole, but they just seemed disinterested in their opening drive after a holding penalty on Jason Kelce negated a 52-yard touchdown run. On third-and-10, the Eagles just ran a wide receiver screen and punted. The only thing missing was an actual white flag.

Dave Bernreuther: At least you guys have a choice. The Philly market has blacked out the CBS game so this is all I get, aside from a little stream of Red Zone.

So far this hasn't been a terrible game to watch, though. The Giants DO look competent on offense, which one should hope would be the case with some of the talent they have. An uncalled pass interference or hold just now kept Saquon Barkley from getting into the end zone a second time, and the Giants kick a field goal to go ahead 9-0 after failing on a two-point conversion a few minutes ago.

It's not just the skill position guys doing well in Philly. Rhett Ellison just settled into a zone for a decent gainer on a well-placed pass from Eli Manning as well. That one looked a bit Eagles/Colts-ish too, with multiple tight ends working down the field. Just before that, Odell Beckham over the middle was a predictably large gain against this Eagles defense after what they put on tape last week.

THREE more nice plays by Saquon Barkley have been called back by penalties too; a hold sandwiched by ticky-tack block in the back calls against Beckham and Bennie Fowler. And these penalties (and the one uncalled earlier) are really the only things stopping the Giants thus far. Eli's high completion percentage is much less a product of a wimpy offense today, too. He's throwing downfield.

The Eagles have moved the ball pretty well all game too, but without much to show for it until a Zach Ertz score, followed by a successful two-pointer to make it 19-11. Being within one score will not be much consolation for them, though, if the defense doesn't start coming up with stops. The Giants are approaching 350 yards of offense in the first half, a week after the Eagles gave up over 500. With the Giants nearing the red zone again -- their best hope for a stop here with the way they're playing is the clock running down.

Of course, immediately as I type that, the Giants attack down the middle of the field, but Eli floats it short, allowing Malcolm Jenkins to undercut the route and pick it off. After a brilliant 19-of-23 start, Eli has thrown two terrible passes in a row to close out the half.

Well, safe to say that whatever Jim Schwartz said at the half worked. The Eagles have put the brakes on the Giants offense and continued at about the same offensive pace, and just like that, they have the lead. Turns out that not being a sieve translates to winning football.

It's not all the Eagles, though. The Giants continue to shoot themselves in the foot with penalties. With ten minutes to play and a three-point game, maybe it's not such a bad thing that this is my only broadcast option.

Seattle Seahawks 30 at Carolina Panthers 27

Bryan Knowles: Seattle's offense hasn't woken up yet, but their defense is coming up big when it needs to. The Panthers have gotten into the red zone twice, but the Seahawks stopped a Cam Newton draw on fourth-and-2 the first time and then forced a field goal the second time, so they're only down 3-0. They only have 12 yards of offense so far, so that's going to need to change soon, but this game could have gotten out of hand early, and it hasn't.

Vince Verhei: Just to add some details to Bryan's note: The Panthers had third-and-short inside the 10 on each of their first two drives, but got stuffed on runs both times (once by Newton, once by Christian McCaffrey). Dominant short-yardage defense is the only thing keeping them in the game -- Carolina is consistently picking up 3 to 8 yards at a time.

Carl Yedor: Seahawks go down and tie it up at 3. On third down in the red zone, Doug Baldwin was wide open over the middle of the field, but right tackle Germain Ifedi got bullrushed into Russell Wilson as he was releasing the ball, causing the throw to sail. Ifedi has been much improved this year, but that was not a good rep for him.

Of course, as soon as I say something nice about Ifedi's play this year, he misses a blitzing linebacker coming off the edge, choosing to double-team the end with his hand on the ground instead of sliding to pick up Shaq Thompson. Wilson thinks he has time to sit in the pocket based on the box count and takes a big sack, eventually leading to another three-and-out.

Vince Verhei: That's at least the second time an unblocked blitzer has taken Wilson down right away.

Panthers get a couple of big plays off wide receiver runs -- one a triple-option look to the left where Newton looked to pitch to the running back, but it was actually a pitch to Curtis Samuel coming back the other way. Then, in the red zone, they get a second-and-3, but give up on the short-yardage runs. Play-action, Newton to Samuel on a slant route for a touchdown and a 10-3 lead.

Nobody uses the I-formation anymore, and it looks like Carolina forgot how to defend it. They blitz Wilson but leave fullback Tre Madden totally uncovered, and it's an easy catch-and-run down to the 1. Next play, I-formation again, and Chris Carson plunges ahead for the score and a 10-10 tie. Tyler Lockett also had a big catch on third-and-4, then broke several tackles for a 20-some-yard gain on that drive.

Bryan Knowles: It's halftime. Cam Newton is 14-for-14 for 159 yards and a touchdown, the Panthers have only punted once and are yet to turn the ball over ... and they only lead by three. Seattle has to feel very happy they dodged a bunch of bullets in that first half; a statline like this normally goes alongside a blowout. Seattle is being bailed out by their short-yardage defense, but they're going to need to figure out a way to slow Cam down if they want to come back in this one.

Vince Verhei: Another goal-line stand for Seattle results in a 13-10 lead for Carolina at the half. McCaffrey was tackled in bounds on third down and Carolina was out of timeouts. (They actually called their last timeout with more than seven minutes to go in the half.) They had to scramble to get the field goal off and barely got the ball snapped. And it was a dribbler that skipped and slid, but Michael Palardy made a great play to get it down and Graham Gano hit the kick. Panthers are now 0-for-4 on third down and 0-for-1 on fourth.

Newton is having a monster game -- he's 14-of-14 for 159 yards -- but they have just the one touchdown to show for it. McCaffrey has been bottled up on the ground, with 20 yards on eight carries, but he leads the team with eight catches and 79 yards.

Seattle is in the game because of short-yardage defense (in addition to what we have already discussed, they also stuffed McCaffrey on third-and-1 to force a punt) and big plays from everyone on offense. They have only completed seven passes, and nobody has caught more than two, but they're averaging more than 17 yards a catch as a team.

Seattle looks to force a punt on Carolina's first drive of the second half, but Cam Newton does Cam Newton things, slipping a shoestring tackle and running for 26 yards. But the red zone remains a nightmare for the Panthers -- Newton forces a pass to Chris Manhertz, who has all of one catch on the year. He's not close to open, and Bradley McDougald tips the ball up to himself and reels it in for the interception. That's Seattle's first turnover in several weeks.

FOX is having a terrible broadcast, by the way. They said Carolina had converted several third downs; I checked, they're 0-for-4. They also had a 16-10 score on the screen for several minutes when it was still 13-10.

Chris Carson with a highlight reel run. He tries to hurdle a defender and gets hit and does a full flip -- but sticks the landing and comes up on his feet! He's tackled right away for no gain after that, but I don't think I have ever seen that before.

Carl Yedor: Here's the Carson flip:

Vince Verhei: The bad news for Seattle is that their insistence on running on second-and-long is leading to a lot of third-and-longs. The good news is that Russell Wilson is starting convert them. He found an uncovered David Moore for a 51-yard gain, then Lockett for a 12-yard touchdown to put Seattle up 17-13. That was an interesting call -- it was ruled a catch short of the end zone, but instead of taking first-and-goal from a few inches, Seattle challenged the play. It was an obvious call on replay and an easy reversal to a score, but as close as he would have been, was it worth risking a challenge there?

Bit of a crazy sequence here as Carolina receivers fumble on back-to-back plays, but they recovered both times. That includes Ryan Kalil recovering a McCaffrey fumble 21 yards downfield -- good hustle by the lineman there. Next play, Shaquill Griffin is called for pass interference in the end zone, and the NEXT play, McCaffrey carries it in for the easy score to put the Panthers back up 20-17. Newton ran for another third-down conversion on that drive too.

The Fumble Gods are smiling on the offenses today. I talked about Carolina's fortune earlier. Carson also had a fumble that went out of bounds in the first half, and just now had a fumble in scoring range that was reversed and ruled down by contact. Seattle then went for it on fourth-and-1 and just barely converted, but it ended up not meaning anything -- they gained zero yards after that and kicked a field goal to tie the game at 20-all.

Bryan Knowles: The crazy fumble luck in this one continues, as McCaffrey fumbles at the goal line but the Panthers fall on top of it. That's five Carolina fumbles, zero lost (plus one for Seattle, as well).

McCaffrey, when he's not putting the ball on the ground, is going off. The Panthers just had a 75-yard drive, every yard of which belonged to McCaffrey. He has over 100 yards rushing and receiving, as the Panthers take a 27-20 lead.

Vince Verhei: Jesus this game. McCaffrey runs for 59 and 15 yards. He's now over 100 rushing and receiving. But on first-and-goal, he fumbles again, but Carolina recovers AGAIN. That's three fumbles for McCaffrey and five total for the Panthers, and Carolina has recovered ALL of them. Two plays later, McCaffrey scores on a flat/slant combo where his man gets caught up in the trash, and Panthers go on top 27-20.

Dave Bernreuther: This one is fun. On fourth-and-3 from the 35 (Mike McCarthy probably would have punted), Carroll and Wilson flash their cojones and go for it all. And even with one arm being held, Moore goes up and gets the near-perfect ball from Wilson. That brought a tear of joy to my eye and I can't stand Russell Wilson.

Vince Verhei: David Moore is really good at catching balls in traffic. Seahawks have to go for in on fourth-and-3, and Wilson finds Moore down the sideline, isolated on Corn Elder. Elder is grabbing Moore's right arm with both his hands, the most blatant coverage foul you'll ever see, but that doesn't matter because Moore catches the ball with his other arm for the 35-yard touchdown. So we're tied at 27 now, Seattle about to kick off with 3:26 to go. Two timeouts remaining for each team.

Bryan Knowles: Ooooh, Gano just misses a 52-yard go-ahead field goal. And now Seattle's got the ball with 1:40 left, in great field position (albeit with no timeouts remaining). Popcorn game, this one.

Vince Verhei: Well hey now. Graham Gano misses a 52-yard field goal. And this comes after Newton threw an incompletion on second down, handing Seattle a free timeout. Now Seattle is out of timeouts, but has more than 90 seconds to drive for a winning field goal.

Bryan Knowles: As a side note, the FOX broadcast just flashed a graphic saying the Seahawks would have a 16.5 percent chance of winning the NFC West with a win today. Uh, suuuuure.

Aaron Schatz: We would have Seattle with less than 1 percent chance of winning the NFC West even with a win today.

Bryan Knowles: This is what happens when you just check how often 6-5 teams win the division without taking, you know, the actual situation in 2018 into account, much less relative team quality.

But hey, it's still a possibility. With a loss today, the Seahawks would have been eliminated from the division race ... but Sebastian Janikowski's 31-yard field goal ends this one. He was set up by a 43-yard bomb to Tyler Lockett, which Seattle decided was enough -- two kneels and a spike later, and the Seahawks escape with one. That was a heck of a game.

Vince Verhei: Add that to FOX showing Seattle had possession when it was Carolina's ball. They had a worse day than either team. Anyway...

On third down, Elder loses Lockett down the sideline, and Wilson hits him for a 43-yard gain to the 10. And then Seattle manages the game perfectly: kneeldown on first down to burn Carolina's last timeout, kneeldown on second down to burn 40 seconds, spike on third down to stop the clock with 4 seconds left, Sebastian Janikowski with the winning field goal on the last play of the game.

Massive win for Seattle, massive loss for Carolina. They're both 6-5 now as the NFC wild-card scene gets even more muddled. Seattle now gets to play at home for four of its last five games, and the road game is at San Francisco. Panthers have lost three in a row, each one devastating in its own way. Now they have to travel to Tampa Bay and Cleveland before the brutal Saints-Falcons-Saints gauntlet at the end of the season.

Carl Yedor: Holy cow. What a finish. After the missed Gano field goal, Seattle is faced with a third-and-5. Wilson has all day to throw and finds Lockett for 43 yards deep into the red zone. Two kneels and one spike later, Sebastian Janikowski kicks the game-winning field goal as time expires. Seattle gets a massive win on the road for wild-card tiebreaker purposes. Carolina is still in a decent position but not nearly as comfortable as it would have been with a win.

Jacksonville Jaguars 21 at Buffalo Bills 24

Andrew Potter: First blood Buffalo against the Jaguars (don't ask me why, I don't know) on an alarmingly-easy second drive. Shady McCoy looked hesitant on his first few carries, including his first reception, but Josh Allen hit Kelvin Benjamin on a deep over for about 20 yards, that turned into 32 yards because the referees missed that Benjamin's knee was down, then 47 because Jalen Ramsey ultimately took Benjamin down by the facemask. A crosser from right to left got Jason Croom wide open for another first, then Isaiah McKenzie took a sweep wide right for the easiest touchdown of his life. The Jaguars are tackling poorly early, and even on his lone incompletion Josh Allen had Zay Jones open against A.J. Bouye but the pass was tipped at the line.

The Jaguars gained about 25 yards on their opening drive after being pinned at the 1, but Leonard Fournette was stoned short of the line after catching a dumpoff on a Bortles rollout on third-and-1. Earlier, Jerry Hughes leapt OVER Bortles to whiff on a sack, leading to a first down on another dumpoff to Tommy Bohanon. Anything longer than that isn't getting close.

Now, on the third play of their third drive, Josh Allen just hit a BOMB under pressure to Robert Foster, matched up downfield against Barry Church deep centerfield in Cover-3. Seventy-five yards later, it's 14-0. That throw was an absolute beauty, exactly the sort of thing that makes a team spend a first-round pick on arm talent alone. Allen was surrounded in a closing pocket, about to get leveled, and unloaded a gorgeous throw to Foster in stride.

We're still in the first quarter, but the Jaguars are already in a deep, deep hole.

The Jaguars claw themselves out of the hole for the moment by going back to last week's game plan: 11-play drive, 10 runs, and the only pass was a dumpoff to the fullback. At this rate, Tommy Bohanon might be the Jaguars' leading receiver today. Even on third-and-3 from the 5, the Jaguars run straight power up the middle with Fournette, and he duly powers into the end zone.

Next drive is more of the same: six plays, 74 yards, ending in a Fournette goal-line plunge to tie the game. The highlight was a 43-yard end-around by receiver Dede Westbrook, which featured some particularly impressive blocking by tight end James O'Shaughnessy, first sealing the edge on the end of the line then getting downfield to lead block for Westbrook. Jaguars have called one pass in their last 17 plays, and even that was a fullback dumpoff. They're going to run, run, and run some more, and so far the Bills can't do a thing about it.

On the other side, Josh Allen hasn't been flawless, but has been really quite impressive so far. He's finding open receivers, making plays with his legs, and extending plays when the initial throw isn't there. The Bills aren't afraid to let Allen sling it, and they have been rewarded for that already.

Inside the two-minute warning, the Jaguars finally do let Bortles throw downfield, and he misses horribly on a throw to Keelan Cole. All the diving receiver can do is knock the ball in the air, where it's intercepted by Matt Milano. This might be the only team in the league that would have a more effective two-minute offense by simply continuing to hand off every play.

We have settled more into the expected pattern in the third quarter. The Jaguars have gone three-and-out three times in two drives -- they got a freebie first down on their second punt because the Bills had too many men on the field on fourth-and-5 -- whereas the Bills have a single first down from their two. Buffalo had a shot at getting into scoring range, but a huge drop by Deonte Thompson on another beautiful Allen deep ball (technically punched out by Tashaun Gipson, but Thompson had the catch and should have held on) led to Allen's first truly bad throw of the game, a horrible miss along the sideline in the vague direction of Robert Foster.

Bryan Knowles: We have got a donnybrook in Buffalo. Donte Moncrief and Levi Wallace simultaneously caught a ball in the end zone (later ruled down at the 1), and neither wanted to give it up. That cued both teams to come in pushing and shoving, and soon punching and kicking. Leonard Fournette and Shaq Lawson exchange blows and headlocks, and are both are ejected. And then, in the tunnel as they head off the field, they have to be separated again. A lot of tensions boiling over here.

Andrew Potter: One big factor in this game has been a slew of ill-timed penalties by the Bills. They have cost themselves several first downs and repeated defensive stops with unnecessary fouls. Now the Jaguars go three-and-out again with a Bortles sack on third down, but Buffalo is called on yet another big penalty and the Jaguars get another free first down. That leads to a 30-yard bomb from Bortles to Donte Moncrief, a bad throw short of the receiver that Moncrief turns into a superb grab. The catch is initially ruled a touchdown, but overturned because Moncrief was down by contact a yard short of the end zone. A proper brawl breaks out while the receiver and defensive back wrestle for the ball, resulting in Leonard Fournette and Shaq Lawson being ejected. Carlos Hyde is immediately stuffed, a false start and a holding call push the Jaguars back to the 17, Jerry Hughes and Kyle Williams sack Blake Bortles on back-to-back plays, and the Jaguars miss the field goal.

So in the last few plays, the Jaguars have lost a touchdown, lost 20 yards, missed the field goal, and lost their most effective offensive player for the game. Apart from that, the play was fine.

Dave Bernreuther: Well that was all very entertaining. The refs seemed to be attempting to play Jingle Bells on their whistles, to no avail, in stopping the brouhaha, and then the Jags go straight backwards, culminating in a Bortles sack that makes the easy field goal a lot more difficult, and of course Josh Lambo misses it. This game is actually quite a bit more interesting and exciting than their playoff game last year.

Andrew Potter: The Jaguars have now also lost Andrew Norwell, their expensive offseason acquisition on the offensive line. After being helped off the field, he was carted into the locker room. Chris Reed is in at left guard, between fourth-string left tackle Ereck Flowers and backup center Tyler Shatley. Cue the "this is fine" dog meme.

In between losing Fournette and Norwell, they also fell behind on a Josh Allen touchdown run. Technically, it was a scramble on a called pass play, but really Allen called his own number when the Jaguars left basically nobody defending the middle of the field between him and the end zone. Allen's stat line is nothing to write home about, but he has played better than his numbers -- he's Buffalo's leading rusher, and he's lost several plays on offensive line penalties and that Deonte Thompson drop.

The penalties are now beginning to make this tough to watch, which is unfortunate as it has been a much better game than most people expected. The teams have combined for 23 penalties for 170 yards, plus two ejections, another pair of offsetting penalties, and a couple of others declined.

Dave Bernreuther: Josh Allen's cannon throw earlier accounts for almost half of his passing yards, as he is 8-of-19 for 160 in total.

But he also leads both teams in rushing, going over 100 yards, with a 17-yard fourth-quarter score to give the Bills a lead. Which is a good spot to be in against Blake Bortles, who just threw a beautiful pass -- ha, I'm just kidding, of course, it's Blake Bortles -- into coverage from his own end zone for a backbreaking interception. Their defense, given the worst possible start, holds, but it's far too late at this point, as it's 24-14 and the Jags have no timeouts and Blake Bortles.

It's worth pointing out that the same Buffalo fans who are going to go berserk over this Allen performance couldn't wait to get rid of Tyrod Taylor, whose worst days were about this good.

Andrew Potter: In backhanded defense of Bortles, that was one of his better throws of the day, and James O'Shaughnessy should have caught it.

I don't remember Tyrod Taylor having many days where he threw this well. Allen was far from perfect, and his accuracy declined as the game progressed, but he had several of those outstanding highlights that make it easy to see why somebody couldn't resist his physical tools.

The Jaguars did drive for a consolation score against the Bills' soft zone defense, but a simple onside kick recovery allowed the Bills to kneel the game out.

It's amazing to see how far the Jaguars have fallen since that early-season smackdown of the Patriots. It really does look like that was their Super Bowl, and they haven't played close to that level since. Indeed, the closest they came was last week, against the other big-game opponent from last year. The defense in particular keeps having communication breakdowns to allow big plays, and they aren't competent enough on offense to be able to afford even one such breakdown in most games. We expected some regression for them this year, but I genuinely did not expect this. Now that Buffalo is a game ahead of them and has the tiebreaker, the Jags are staring at yet another top-five draft pick, and I don't think any of us really saw that coming after last year.

New England Patriots 27 at New York Jets 13

Aaron Schatz: Strong pass protection by the Jets early. The Patriots had a couple blitzes that were picked up easily, giving Josh McCown plenty of time, although each of those passes ended up way overthrown. McCown has hit a lot of shorter stuff, though, a lot to Jermaine Kearse in the slot with Jonathan Jones as the nickelback in coverage. Kearse got the first touchdown of the game. The Patriots just came back and answered with a 34-yard touchdown strike to Gronk over the middle. Interesting decision by the Jets, as the Patriots missed on third-and-2 before that from the Jets' 24. The Patriots also got an OPI call and the Jets had to choose between fourth-and-2 on the 24 (likely a 42-yard field goal attempt) or giving the Patriots third-and-12 on the 34. If they stop them on that, it's a longer field goal, but you're also giving the Patriots another chance to convert. They gave them another chance, and the Patriots converted with the touchdown to Gronk.

A surprising 10-10 at halftime. The Patriots got down into the red zone and ran two lousy fade patterns to Gronk (lined up wide right) that the Jets defended pretty easily. They had to settle for a field goal. Then the Jets had a big 41-yard pass to Quincy Enunwa, but that was followed by a deep pass to Robby Anderson intercepted by Stephon Gilmore. So the Patriots take the ball at the 2, all three timeouts and over 2:00 left, and ... hand off three times and then punt. How oddly conservative. The Jets get the ball back around their own 40, move it about 20 yards downfield, and get a 55-yard field goal by Jason Myers that just kind of flutters in the air and then curves in between the uprights. So that's 10-10.

Dave Bernreuther: After a fairly gruesome injury to Sony Michel -- again, sigh -- the Patriots instantly revert to their last no-Michel offense and go for a fourth-and-1 with a give to Cordarrelle Patterson that converts.

On the replay, the announcers praise the block of Jacob Hollister, which surely did help create that hole for Patterson. Thing is, though, he did it by bear hugging the guy from behind. And I mean really behind. Back numbers to chest numbers behind. Somehow that went uncalled. But the Jets escape harm, as Brady throws two low inaccurate passes and then misses Gronk, who was probably held, and the Pats kick a field goal anyway. I thought that the Jets would probably move the ball and possibly score some points in this one, but them shutting the Pats down but for one big play, even into the second half, is unexpected. Even at home for a divisional game.

Aaron Schatz: Michel was weirdly bent back on that injury, but not actually injured. It looked more like it hurt, like your body just isn't supposed to bend that way. He came back at the start of the fourth quarter and immediately broke off a 33-yard run.

Dave Bernreuther: Thank goodness. And he is rewarded with a touchdown.

Actually isn't that his second "very bad looking but turned out to be not so big a deal" injury in about a month?

Aaron Schatz: The first was the knee injury, which did cost him a couple weeks but was not as bad as it looked on first glance. Also, his right knee was down, so the touchdown has been reversed on replay.

... but he broke the plane on a carry on the next down, so now Michel has scored. 27-13 Patriots.

The Jets got the ball back with 5:15 left, down 14, and took their sweet time getting down the field. Short passes, taking a while to get lined up, not managing to get a play off before the two-minute warning. This was exactly the kind of late-game drive everyone always criticizes Andy Reid for, although nobody will remember because it's the Jets in a random midseason game, not a playoff game under the prime-time lights. The Jets got down to the 4 and couldn't get the touchdown or convert on third-and-2 and fourth-and-2. Last pass went right between the hands of Jermaine Kearse.

Another couple things about this game. The Patriots blitzed a lot more than I expected to see. They also ran a lot more than expected, not just when they had the lead in the second half. There were a lot of old school, I-formation power runs and isos today. Over 130 yards for Sony Michel. And there were a lot of penalties today. Shaun Hochuli's crew leads the league in penalties per game and oh man did you feel it today. Eighteen total penalties, 11 on the Pats and seven on the Jets.

Tom Gower: Coming off the loss to the Titans and then the bye, there's a temptation to turn today's performance into Yet Another Exegesis of Whether The Patriots Dynasty Is Finally Over Now, but overall this game felt like Yet Another Patriots Win Over A Game But Ultimately Lost Jets. Josh McCown had a decent game for him. Rob Gronkowski scored a touchdown in his return. Tom Brady was for the most part efficient, with Julian Edelman, Gronk, and Josh Gordon the leading receivers. Gordon actually made a couple plays, unlike the Titans game where Brady kept looking for him and he kept not winning against Adoree Jackson. James White only had one catch on five targets, but a number of these appeared to be quasi-throwaways. Aaron mentioned Michel's big game and the character of the Patriots running game; when they weren't called for a flag, which happened way too often in a game I already wasn't excited about getting locally, the Patriots line did a nice job and it seemed like Jets second- and third-level defenders had a hard time fitting things up. Overall, a good recovery from two weeks ago, but Patriots Dynasty Watch is not over yet.

Cleveland Browns 35 at Cincinnati Bengals 20

Tom Gower: I'm not watching this game, but Damarious Randall apparently just intercepted an Andy Dalton pass and handed the ball to Hue Jackson after running out of bounds on the Bengals sideline and that needs to be mentioned.

Bryan Knowles: You think the Browns are fired up to play their old head coach? With Hue Jackson staring from the defensive sidelines, the Browns are firing on all cylinders. Baker Mayfield is 14-for-18 for 203 yards with a couple of touchdowns; he's just picking the Bengals apart. They also just picked off Andy Dalton to get the ball in good field position again. It's 21-0 midway through the second quarter, and the Bengals are just looking shellshocked. You'd think Jackson would be able to clue the defense in to the Browns' offensive strengths, but I suppose he never figured out what those were while he was in Cleveland.

Scott Kacsmar: Nick Chubb may have had the touchdown catch of the year. Great effort to catch the ball through a defender and maintain control through the ground. That would have been impressive for a wideout, let alone a running back. Mayfield has thrown multiple touchdowns in five straight games. The Cleveland franchise record still belongs to Frank Ryan (six games), who was unexpectedly great at throwing touchdowns in the 1960s. Haven't seen a ton of Baker today, but did see one third-and-11 where he scrambled and fired a perfect sideline pass for a conversion. He's definitely going to make the Browns a trendy pick for the playoffs in 2019. The Browns are up 28-0 on the road, and all of this coming with Hue on the other sideline has to feel extra sweet for Cleveland.

Vince Verhei: Hue Jackson falls to 6-38-1 when coaching for or against the Browns.

Bryan Knowles: I think we have a good indication of just what Baker Mayfield thinks of his former head coach.

San Francisco 49ers 9 at Tampa Bay Buccaneers 27

Bryan Knowles: It has not been a good 24 hours for San Francisco. Reuben Foster has been released after the fourth arrest of his short career and Marquise Goodwin has had to leave the team to deal with a personal issue. At least we get to watch George Kittle, who is second in the league in YAC behind only Saquon Barkley. The 49ers offense at this point is "throw the ball to Kittle, run with Matt Breida, repeat." Fourteen of San Francisco's 19 offensive plays have gone to one of those two guys; it has not exactly been an amazing demonstration of balance.

Tampa has gone back to Jameis Winston, and he's looking good so far today. He's not doing anything too deep, generally -- a lot of high-percentage plays -- but he's at least hitting them, and Tampa has done a good job of moving the ball down the field, though they only have one score to show for it. 7-6 Tampa Bay midway through the second.

Dave Bernreuther: It's nice when halftime shows actually show football highlights instead of stupid celebrations. I spoke of Lamar Jackson not throwing a perfect sideline pass to Crabtree on his second pick; the FOX halftime show just took the time to point out how Jameis Winston threw his guy open in exactly that way, to the outside shoulder and away from the defense. This is easily his best game, technique-wise, of the season. Even his misses have been safe, which stands in pretty good contrast to his usual reckless self.

Bryan Knowles: Kyle Shanahan does have a bit of a history with questionable challenges, and he just wasted another one on a Nick Mullens sneak at the goal line. He may well have gotten in, but there was certainly no video evidence of that occurring in sea of bodies. The 49ers had a second-and-1, and ran into the pile twice, getting stuffed. They lined up to go for it on fourth-and-1, but a false start pushed them back, and they decided to kick the short field goal instead. 13-9 Tampa Bay.

Dave Bernreuther: I thought it was a near certainty that Mullens got in, and couldn't believe that they didn't signal it. But yeah, that was a terrible challenge. There wasn't any angle at all that fit the criteria for an overturn. Not even close. And with a high percentage play coming up anyway, that's not a flag I would have thrown.

Then again, maybe he knew something about his team that we don't; on the fourth-and-goal play, they false started. Whoops.

Miami Dolphins 24 at Indianapolis Colts 27

Vince Verhei: In this week's fashion post, the Chargers are wearing royal blue jerseys (with yellow numbers!) and pants against the Cardinals' all-white unis. Game looks like a Pro Bowl.

Dave Bernreuther: Vince, check out the other two late games. This is appalling.

I don't know what upsets me more: That the Colts and their always-agreeable tradition-first uniform choices are out the window in favor of the all blue pajama look; or the fact that a still not reliable defense just lost its best player on the first play of the game.

Vince Verhei: I was just going to say, Denver in their all-orange against Pittsburgh in yellow-and-white ... that game just looks like roadwork.

Dave Bernreuther: At least the Dolphins wore the teal pants instead of going all-white against the all-blue, mirroring the Chargers game.

The Colts defense didn't even put up a fight on a free play swing pass to Kenyan Drake. If they don't get that figured out, this game has all the makings of a 1999-like shootout. Or at least it will have to, if they want to have any chance of winning.

Vince Verhei: I don't think I have seen the Colts go blue-on-blue before. And you know what? I don't hate it. Especially not against the Dolphins in teal -- there's a nice contrast in colors there, but they don't clash.

Dave Bernreuther: They never have. And when Nike got the uniform contract, there was some talk of alternates in black, and the front office vetoed it. We saw these at the Color Rush unveiling last year, but they opted not to wear them. (I always thought that they could have just worn their usual all-whites and gotten away with calling that Color rush while also complying with Nike's stupid crap.) Since 2004, when team COO Pete Ward switched from the lighter blue with blue masks and white shoes to the current look, they have worn a throwback on Thanksgiving of that year, maybe one other time, but have otherwise been perfect. Until today.

Speaking of perfect, the offense stormed directly back downfield to tie it up, but actually ended on a less-than-perfect throw from Luck, which Eric Ebron came down with anyway. Dan Pompeii wrote a good feature on him the other day, in which he admitted to not being quite ready or mature when he first came into the league. What a find he has been for the Colts a few years in to his career, though. Lions fans must be sick right now watching this.

Scott Kacsmar: Eric Ebron catching yet another touchdown makes you wonder what exactly went wrong in Detroit. His DVOA in the red zone was good for a couple of years, but Matthew Stafford rarely wanted to use him there. Andrew Luck has been big on him all year and it's working well.

You have to love the announcers talking about how Ryan Tannehill will be playing in significant pain (his words) this season, and the very next play is a keeper run by him. Maybe it's just exaggeration, or maybe it's just another case of getting a player on the field at all costs.

Dave Bernreuther: Darius Leonard is back in the game, and he picks up a sack on a third-and-4 to force the Dolphins' third straight punt. That's a nice turnaround from the wet tissue paper defense on the first drive.

The Dolphins had the ball because T.Y. Hilton went out of bounds meekly a yard or less shy of the sticks on third-and-7 on the previous possession. I would have liked to have seen a replay of that one though, as it seems like his arm might have been a lot farther forward at the time he went out. It was the end of the quarter, though, so we didn't get replays, but a full two minutes of commercials instead. Even if the spot was wrong, though, that was a really weak play by Hilton, and I hope Reich got in his face for it.

I love Bruce Arians for putting a sack on Andrew Luck for holding it too long. It won't count, of course, because of an illegal contact call downfield, so the streak remains alive. But it's nice to hear someone putting most of the blame where it belongs, as opposed to blindly crediting the new and improved offensive line for that part of the team's improvement.

Vince Verhei: Can I just say that Jacoby Brissett completing a pass to Andrew Luck for a fourth-down conversion was the coolest play of the day? Because it totally was. They did the Taysom Hill, Lamar Jackson thing with the backup taking the snap and the starter split wide, but the Miami corner just gave Luck a massive cushion, and Brissett threw him the ball. It was a high pass and Luck had to jump to reel it in, but still a pretty easy conversion under the circumstances.

Dave Bernreuther: The opposite of the play(s) of the day just happened. We just had turnovers on three consecutive plays. Luck pick deep, fumble after a catch, and another Luck pick deep. All in the blink of an eye. Not the prettiest football being played here all of a sudden.

Maybe this is just me being angry for other reasons, but prior to the Jack Doyle touchdown, T.Y. Hilton didn't put up much of a fight to get in when being tackled after a catch at the 1, and on the first Luck interception he didn't make much of an effort to play defense or dislodge the ball once he knew the defender had leverage.

I get that he's small, and I get that I'm just in a bad mood, but man, I thought those were three plays in one half where he could have been a bit tougher.

Vince Verhei: This all happened in the last minute of the half, the most exciting 60 seconds of football so far today:

  • Leonte Carroo outjumps a Colts defender to catch a 50-50 ball, and when the defender falls down, it turns into a 74-yard touchdown.
  • Next play from scrimmage, Andrew Luck throws deep to T.Y. Hilton, but it's intercepted by Xavien Howard.
  • Next play from scrimmage, Mike Gesicki catches the ball, but fumbles and it's recovered by Indianapolis.
  • Next play from scrimmage, Luck throws deep to Ebron, but it's intercepted by Howard again.
  • Miami mercifully kneels out the half so everyone can catch their breath.

I would assume back-to-back-to-back turnovers is an NFL first.

Anyway, we're tied at 14 at the half.

Scott Kacsmar: I can't cite a specific example, but I'm sure back-to-back-to-back turnovers from scrimmage has happened before. What might be historic is how quickly Howard picked up two interceptions.

Tom Gower: Luke Kuechly had two interceptions 11 seconds apart against Dallas a few years ago, so Howard's feat is not a record.

Vince Verhei: Dolphins lead 24-17 thanks to the running game -- Frank Gore had a 23-yarder to put them in the red zone, and then Kenyan Drake scored on second-and-13 from the 14 --but they may have fallen a little too in love with it. On third-and-10, protecting a one-score lead deep in their own end, they hand off to Drake. Margus Hunt is not fooled and drops Drake for a 5-yard loss. Worse, Drake stays down grabbing his arm, then heads to the tent. Miami is punting with exactly eight minutes to go.

The Colts get a big catch-and-run from Hilton and another touchdown from Ebron (sweet throw from Luck, finding Ebron in the seam) to tie the score. Then Drake returns to the field -- but Miami gives it to him on third-and-10 AGAIN. That leads to a punt, and Luck and the Colts will have several minutes here to kick a winning field goal.

Ryan Tannehill is a seventh-year pro and the Dolphins still don't trust him to throw on third-and-long with the score tied. He's not a disaster on the Bortles level or anything, but at this point it's clear the Dolphins need something new at that position.

Dave Bernreuther: Another Ebron score ties the game up after the Colts come back rather quickly from a 10-point deficit, and why Andrew Luck is more special than some of his stats indicate is that you almost expect that from him. Part of the reason they fell into the 10-point hole was that Chester Rogers and his old stone hands killed a drive a while ago, but he has since made up for it with two catches, including one after Luck pulled a Houdini.

Another part of the reason they were down two scores was that Vinatieri missed a kick. Vinatieri doesn't often miss twice, though. And he doesn't here, hitting from 32 as time expires to take the win. Not quite as impressive as many had hoped, but a win is a win.

Vince Verhei: That field goal felt inevitable from the point Miami punted, but let's not overlook how awesome that Luck throw to Rogers was. Step up in the pocket, looking like he's going to scramble, then throwing on the breaks and lobbing the ball deep. Just tremendous.

Dave Bernreuther: Why I love Frank Reich, reason 387: After the game he mentioned two key plays. One was the obvious one: Luck's escape and throw to Rogers, but the other was his decision to kick short and pin them deep on the final drive. They covered it well but were further helped by a penalty, and once Miami started at the 6 it seemed almost a fait accompli that the Colts would score next and win.

Adam Gase, meanwhile, must infuriate Dolphins fans. After going up two scores, he stopped trying to win. (Actually, several Colts fans on Twitter noted that he didn't seem to be coaching to win even in the first half.) Two three-and-outs for -5 yards total, full of short passes and a pair of handoffs on third-and-10. A lot of fans still lack faith in Ryan Tannehill, but he's at worst a decent quarterback. They coached that game like they were playing Hide the Bortles.

Tom Gower: As I noted on Twitter, compare Reich's decision with what Todd Bowles did earlier today, booting the ball through the end zone on a kickoff from the 50. One completion to Josh Gordon later, the Patriots were almost at midfield, and the drive would end in the end zone after Bowles accepted a penalty on an incompletion to make it third-and-12 instead of fourth-and-2. Coaching matters, a lot, in many areas.

Pittsburgh Steelers 17 at Denver Broncos 24

Scott Kacsmar: The Steelers are going to want a reset button for Christmas. This is another troubling road start, but it's not Ben Roethlisberger this week. The special teams let a defender leap over the line to block a field goal on the opening drive. Then after a great play design to get Xavier Grimble wide open, he fumbled through the end zone for a touchback. I don't know why he didn't just dive and reach, but instead opened himself up to a bit of a helmet-to-helmet shot and lost the ball. Denver's up 3-0 after barely making its field goal. Case Keenum was also lucky that a pass tipped high up into the air didn't land into the hands of a defender.

Wow, I was getting ready to type how the Steelers left 14 points on the field in that half, but a fake field goal takes away four of those points. Chris Boswell may have had his choice of receivers, but he hit the left tackle Alejandro Villanueva with the score. Pretty ballsy call before the half there. Steelers have moved the ball very well with a quick-passing attack by Roethlisberger, but not finishing drives well. Vance McDonald dropped a touchdown and a shovel pass on third down didn't work, but kudos to Mike Tomlin and the special teams for being aggressive with the fake. 10-10 at halftime and we have a good one.

Vince Verhei: Pittsburgh's fake field goal touchdown on the last play of the first half just stole the Play of the Day trophy from Andrew Luck's fourth down conversion. Direct snap to the kicker, and a pinpoint pass from Chris Boswell to an uncovered Alejandro Villanueva (don't forget, he played some wide receiver at Army) for the score. I was hoping they would fake it again on the extra point, but Boswell just kicks it through to make it 10-10 at the half.

Bryan Knowles: The Steelers have been moving up and down the field, sure, but their drives had ended in a blocked field goal, a fumble-touchback, and a field goal up until the end of the first half. Some long passes to Ryan Switzer set the Steelers up inside the Denver 10, but the Broncos were able to hold, setting up a scaredy-cat 19-yard field goal for Pittsburgh...

... Except, no, it's a direct snap to Chris Boswell, who throws a dime to Alejandro Villanueva for Pittsburgh's first touchdown of the day. It's 10-10 at the half, Pittsburgh gets the ball to start the second half. If they can just tidy a few things up, they'll win this one without too much trouble, but you have to frown at being tied at halftime against a 4-6 team, even if it's a really good 4-6 team.

If you're having trouble converting in the red zone, one solution is to avoid the red zone entirely. Roethlisberger just hit JuJu Smith-Schuster on a 97-yard catch and run to take a 17-10 lead. It's the longest offensive touchdown of the year to this point (beaten only by a 102-yard Jakeem Grant kickoff return and Justin Reid's 101-yard interception return from a year ago). So that's good.

On the other hand! Roethlisberger was pulled down in the end zone as he threw the ball, and has gone into the locker room. He seems to be more or less alright, jogging into the tunnel ... but Josh Dobbs is warming up for now.

And as I write this, Roethlisberger runs back OUT of the tunnel and onto the field, because the man is practically indestructible. This is the second time this year I have written up an "oh no, Roethlisberger is hurt" note, and he has come back in within a play each time.

Scott Kacsmar: CBS had a graphic that said JuJu is the first player to have two offensive touchdowns of 97-plus yards in NFL history, but I think that's wrong. Pro Football Reference has Gaynell Tinsley going 97 yards for the Cardinals in 1937, and he outdid himself with a 98-yard touchdown catch in 1938. Wikipedia biography also backs this up, and I could look at an Arizona media guide later, but I think they just missed this pre-1940 feat. Still impressive for Smith-Schuster either way.

Vince Verhei: Phillip Lindsay is a really, really nice player, man. His 2-yard touchdown puts Denver up 24-17, and he's now up to 99 yards on only 12 carries. The only question: why does he only have 12 carries, while Case Keenum has 28 passes? Don't I ask this same question every week?

Aaron Schatz: I actually don't mind the Denver pass/run ratio. We're not talking about him like we talk about the hot young offensive playcallers, but I think Bill Musgrave deserves some credit for designing a Denver offense that's so good on the ground and has a lot of misdirection in it to prop up Case Keenum. They just went up 24-17 and on the touchdown drive there was a sweet little pass play that was fake screen left, then fake screen right, then toss up the middle to a wide-open tight end Jeff Heuerman. The Denver offense also uses a lot of motion to confuse defenses, like the best modern offenses.

I mean, if I asked where Denver ranked in offensive DVOA going into this week, you would probably guess something in the bottom half of the league, right? They're 11th.

Vince Verhei: Points taken, but I will add that they are third in rushing offense DVOA, 20th in passing offense. They're one of the few teams, and the only good team, that has a higher DVOA on running plays than on pass plays. And those are team totals -- that doesn't even account for Lindsay (21.6% DVOA) being much more effective than Royce Freeman (5.8%). If you want to take carries away from Freeman and give them to Lindsay going forward, I'm fine with that.

Dave Bernreuther: Bill Musgrave deserves a ton of credit for the last Raiders playoff appearance and the semi-misplaced hope people still have in Derek Carr, which is why it was about as odd that they let him go as it was that the Jets let John Morton go after making chicken salad last year.

I'd give some credit to Vance Joseph and his defense today too, but I'm not actually convinced they're playing well so much as maybe the Steelers are blinded by their uniforms.

Bryan Knowles: We already had a big-man touchdown in this one, and now we have a big-man Interception! Big Ben threw into ... well, I'm going to call it double coverage and be generous ... and the nose tackle jumped up and snagged it down. Broncos are going to pull off the upset!

Dave Bernreuther: Can we stop with these stupid team photo celebrations? Never mind that I'm a curmudgeon, Denver, but you did the exact same freaking thing earlier in the game!

(Oh, also, first-and-goal on the doorstep, the Steelers go uncreative fade, predictable run, and a pass straight into the gut of the wrong team. That was ... ungood. And now once again the Patriots have the inside path to a bye.)

Vince Verhei: Steelers have a third-and-goal from the 2, needing a touchdown to tie ... and Roethlisberger throws a brutal interception right to defensive tackle Shelby Harris. That's a 290-pound man dressed like a traffic cone, so I have no idea how Ben didn't see him. Worse, the cornerback (Chris Harris, I assume) was blanketing Antonio Brown in coverage, and likely would have had the interception if Harris hadn't been there.

So right this second, Baltimore and Indianapolis are tied at 6-5 for the second wild-card spot, with Tennessee at 5-5 playing against Houston Monday night, and then the Bengals, Dolphins, and Broncos all at 5-6. Going to be a crazy battle royal for that last playoff berth.

Aaron Schatz: Denver's schedule gets much, much easier now. Three of these are road games, but: Cincinnati, San Francisco, Oakland, and Cleveland. Then the Chargers in Week 17. It's time for Broncos fans to start rooting for the rival Chargers as hard as possible, because the best thing for Denver would be for the Chargers to clinch the 5 seed before Week 17 and then rest guys in the final game of the regular season.

Then again, the worst thing for Denver would be for the Chargers to still have a shot at the AFC West title in Week 17, and not rest guys.

Arizona Cardinals 10 at Los Angeles Chargers 45

Vince Verhei: The Chargers had a fourth quarter from Hell last week and lost a game against Denver that they absolutely should have won. And things weren't much better in the first quarter this week. Playing a Cardinals team that was coming off a home loss to Oakland, the Chargers quickly fell behind 10-0. They got a touchdown, but then a Philip Rivers fumble set Arizona up in scoring range with a chance to extend the lead to two scores. But the drive went nowhere and then Phil Dawson missed a field goal. Since then, this has been all Los Angeles -- they scored touchdowns on three straight drives, getting an interception of Josh Rosen in there on defense. Rivers is 19-of-19 for 187 yards and two scores (both to Mike Williams), though he also has four sacks (2.5 by Robert Nkemdiche) and the fumble. The Cardinals did nothing on offense in the second quarter, and there's nothing here to indicate they can come back from a 28-10 halftime deficit.

Bryan Knowles: So, Cam Newton was 14-for-14 in the first half. Philip Rivers says "hold my bolo" -- he has set a pair of NFL records today, first by opening the day with 23 straight completions, and now tying Ryan Tannehill's record with 25 consecutive completions on the touchdown pass.

He's 25-for-25 for 226 yards and three touchdowns. Rivers is good, but it's also important to remember that Arizona is really, really bad.

Ooooh, and Rivers can't break Tannehill's record. He was hit as he threw, and his dump-off pass fell incomplete. So Rivers and Tannehill remain tied with 25 consecutive completions, the NFL record. Of course, Rivers did it all in one game, so that's, I don't know -- a bonus point?

Vince Verhei: Not sure why L.A. felt the need to line Melvin Gordon out wide and give him the ball on a reverse while leading 28-10, but they did, and it could not have gone worse -- the play lost 10 yards (officially, it's one of Rivers' record-setting completions, to Austin Ekeler) and Gordon went down with a knee injury and has not returned.

The Chargers are up 42-10 with 13 minutes to go and Philip Rivers' day is done. Geno Smith is running the offense. Rivers finishes 28-of-29 for 259 yards and three touchdowns. The sacks, the fumble and a bunch of short completions will probably keep this off our "best of" list, but it's clearly a special day.

Meanwhile, Arizona's last seven drives include four three-and-outs, one other punt, an interception on first down, and a kneeldown to end the first half.

Bryan Knowles: Arizona ran three plays in the third quarter, which is terrible. They only ran five plays in the third quarter last week, so, you know. Halftime has not been good for the Cardinals recently.

Vince Verhei: We should mention that Arizona's offensive line has been destroyed by injuries. They had a graphic up earlier going through all the changes and I couldn't keep track of them, but I think their Continuity Score after the year is just going to read "#DIV/0!"

Green Bay Packers 17 at Minnesota Vikings 24

Scott Kacsmar: Special teams had a huge impact on the tie between these teams earlier this year, especially on the Vikings. Dan Bailey has already missed two field goals tonight, though the one before halftime was 5 yards longer (56) after a false start penalty. That's tough when the defender jumps offsides and the offensive guy reacts, but since it's not immediate, he gets hit with a false start. Vikings were statistically the better team, but it's tied on the scoreboard, just like last time.

Tom Gower: 14-14 at the half. Minnesota played conservatively in the two-minute drill, privileging avoiding letting Green Bay try over putting points on the board, thus the long field goal attempt on early downs. I wondered early if this game would be decided more by which of the two teams' foibles showed up more frequently. After Green Bay's regular appearances nationwide (five of their past six available in this non-local market), we have all gotten a look at their issues, including, yes, whether Rodgers is missing third down conversions he really should be taking (tonight's example: Jimmy Graham seemingly completely uncovered on a crosser), the non-Jaire Alexander defensive backs, the Vikings' offensive line, Kirk Cousins doing the same thing Kirk Cousins always does, and, oh, pick a Minnesota defensive issue, like being down Andrew Sendejo, plus some occasional interesting decisions and mistakes, like the 12 men penalty on fourth down after the early timeout. And, yep.

Dave Bernreuther: Oh, so NOW Mike McCarthy goes for it. Now that he knows he's on the chopping block and has nothing to lose.

They failed, though, so I'm sure that makes it a bad decision in his eyes...

Aaron Schatz: Xavier Rhodes has mostly erased Davante Adams tonight. Yes, he has a touchdown, but only 24 yards as of the beginning of the fourth quarter.

Dave Bernreuther: I was just about to say something about Rodgers' latest third-down sack -- as well as that I do sometimes find Rodgers complicit in the turnover-wasting we discussed earlier this year -- when I saw this link from Michael David Smith.

Rodgers has always seemed to take more sacks than a player of his caliber should. To a certain extent, it's just something that you live with and take the good with the bad, like vintage completions-with-defenders-hanging-on-him Big Ben or pre-Reich Andrew Luck, because that holding it till the last second resulted in a lot of magic. And Rodgers has certainly made a lot of magic. But he also takes a lot of sacks where it really does seem like he has an opportunity to get rid of the ball safely, and he still doesn't. And, as that article's first section notes, it happens unusually often on third down. And it's not entirely wrong to call that a hidden turnover.

Anyway, in this case I was just going to note that he took two straight third-down sacks. Now that Minnesota has scored ten points after those two drives ended, those sacks are starting to look worse. (Welp, make that three straight.) And I'm wondering if with him, especially as his efficiency has declined a bit, the risk/reward on holding on to the ball is getting skewed.

Of course, it's also fair to consider whether the stubborn old-ness of McCarthy's offense and route combinations are the bigger culprit.

Aaron Schatz: Love Minnesota's decision to go for it on fourth-and-2 from the Green Bay 7, up 24-14. No question that a touchdown in that situation helps you much more than a field goal that changes 24-14 to 27-14.

Scott Kacsmar: I have always been a big fan of pointing out 17 > 13 > 10. Teams usually settle for the field goal, so good job by the Vikings to try. Fortunately, it doesn't look like they'll need those extra points. The defense has been great on third down (1-for-8), which was a staple of the 2017 team's success. Cousins has had a great night too.

Unfortunately, I didn't get to send this before Rodgers converted Green Bay's second third-down of the night and Rhodes pulled up with a leg injury. We still have a game, though with an onside kick likely needed, the Vikings should be okay here.

Aaron Schatz: Rodgers underthrew Equanimeous St. Brown on second-and-1, overthrew an open Davante Adams on third-and-1. Both of those throws are on him. And then ... the Packers kick a field goal. The fourth-and-1 is so much easier to convert than whatever fourth down the Packers will have to try to convert if they recover an onside kick here. They should have gone for it, not kicked the field goal.

Vince Verhei: I'm following online, not watching, so I can't comment too much. But I can say that the fourth-down decision-making in this game has been mind-boggling.

Tom Gower: Yet mind-boggling in a totally unsurprising way.

Dave Bernreuther: The overthrow was so slight that I'm willing to look the other way on that one. But man ... if you're going to go for the three first, why not just do it once you're in range and save time?

As usual, the Packers don't have their timeouts late in the game, so the Vikings will run their third-down play at the two-minute warning and then be able to let it tick down. If we assume a stop, Rodgers will get the ball back. But now he'll need a touchdown, and not a field goal. And the dream of another tie (because I'm evil like that) is very close to dead.

Aaron Schatz: I don't have a problem with McCarthy going for it earlier on fourth-and-1, on the play they didn't convert because Aaron Jones just ran it up into the defense for no yards. McCarthy actually goes for it on fourth down a lot more than you probably think. If we combine 2016 and 2017, he has the highest Aggressiveness Index in the league.

Tom Gower: The Green Bay Packers have now lost the last eight road games Aaron Rodgers has started.

Scott Kacsmar: I didn't mind the late field goal. Any strategy that includes recovering an onside kick feels like a lost cause this year. That's what would have happened if they kept playing for the touchdown. So at least by kicking the field goal, McCarthy saved the two-minute warning and could bait the Vikings into throwing on a third down that might even save more time with an incompletion. For two plays, the defense worked too, setting up a big third-and-6. But instead of getting Rodgers the ball back with more than enough time for a touchdown, the defense allowed another conversion to end the game. Green Bay's offense really struggled the final seven drives after a good start.

Comments

170 comments, Last at 27 Nov 2018, 6:32pm

1 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 10:31am

I don't remember Tyrod Taylor having many days where he threw this well.

Allen's stats were roughly the same as Taylor's stats for Cleveland in a monsoon against Pittsburgh in week 1. Which was his worst full-game as a pro.

Taylor's Buffalo career was 10% higher completion percentage, twice the TD rate, and half the INT rate of Allen, and 1/8th the INT rate of The Human Interception. He was a considerably better QB than either to this point.

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6 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Andrew Potter // Nov 26, 2018 - 10:49am

I don't mean the box score. I literally mean the throws. Allen had a couple of bad misses, and he was worse in the second half than the first, but he made several very high-quality throws. One of those was a beauty downfield that Deonte Thompson turned into an incompletion, and two good completions for first downs were called back on offensive line penalties that ultimately turned them into a deep overthrow of Kelvin Benjamin in third-and-25.

He's unrefined and unpolished, but you could easily see why the Bills thought he was a first-round talent.

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9 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 10:54am

So why was Taylor so much more successful throwing to the same collection of brick-handed morons the Bills call WRs?

I remember him bouncing a bunch of passes right off the hands of his receivers in the playoff game, so it's not like systemic drops are a new thing. And Buffalo spent the last two years trading away every receiver he had chemistry with.

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12 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Cythammer // Nov 26, 2018 - 11:31am

Because Tyrod Taylor is a better QB. However, he still wasn't that great and the Bills were a bad team a long way from win now mode (their playoff appearance last year was a fluke), so moving on from him was a perfectly sensible thing to do. Whether Allen was the right QB to draft in the first round is another debate, but his deficiencies doesn't mean the Bills should still have Tyrod as their starting QB.

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36 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Mike B. In Va // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:43pm

Buffalo traded one receiver from Taylor's one good year - Watkins. Everyone else left through free agency.

Taylor wasn't really more successful at throwing to the WRs, Clay and Shady were just more successfully involved in the passing game. Admittedly, that impression is from memory, but that's certainly what I remember seeing.

I was not a fan of the drafting of Allen, but it's not hard to see why the front office in Buffalo thinks he has more upside than Tyrod did.

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54 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by tjb // Nov 26, 2018 - 3:10pm

Taylor's worst game as a pro was against the Saints last year when he threw for a whopping 56 yards and a pick (and was relieved by the human interception who managed to throw for 79 yards and a TD). Every game he played with Cleveland was better than that disaster.

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2 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 10:39am

Villanueva (New House) had 34 receptions for Army in 2009. On a team that only completed 73 passes. He was far and away their best receiver.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/alejandro-villanueva-1.html

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144 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by dryheat // Nov 27, 2018 - 9:21am

New Town?

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3 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 10:42am

Phillip Lindsay is a really, really nice player, man. His 2-yard touchdown puts Denver up 24-17, and he's now up to 99 yards on only 12 carries. The only question: why does he only have 12 carries, while Case Keenum has 28 passes? Don't I ask this same question every week?

Because it's a mistake to run in the modern NFL and per efficiency metrics.

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29 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Lebo // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:13pm

I would say that it would be a mistake only if Denver was averaging more than eight yards per pass play. (Note: I have no idea what their yards per pass play was.)

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52 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by cjfarls // Nov 26, 2018 - 3:01pm

In general yes, but I think Phillip Lindsay is at near parity with Case Keenum in yards per attempt (pass attempt net yardage vs. carries). Denver this year likely is the exception that proves the rule.

I don't think this means Denver should run all the time, but 2-1 pass/run is probably excessive given the strengths of the team. At the very least, using more play action (Denver is one of the least in the league) and fewer empty-set formations would likely be beneficial.

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75 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:26pm

I disagree with this. It doesn't matter whether you pass or run, so long as you do it effectively. And Denver runs more effectively than they pass

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4 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by ChrisLong // Nov 26, 2018 - 10:45am

It definitely **is** entirely wrong to call a third down sack a hidden turnover. Sacks are bad plays but they don't flip field position like turnovers do.

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133 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by LionInAZ // Nov 26, 2018 - 11:42pm

A third-down sack usually leads to a change in possession, so it's close enough. It's a very bad outcome regardless.

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146 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 27, 2018 - 9:32am

40 yards of field position matters.

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161 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by DGL // Nov 27, 2018 - 11:56am

It's not significantly worse than a third-down incompletion, which is almost as likely to lead to a change in possession*.

* Yes, yes, an incompletion on third and relatively short may result in the team going for and making it on fourth down, where a sack on third and relatively short will be more likely to result in a punt. Splitting hairs.

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166 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Eddo // Nov 27, 2018 - 2:12pm

You also need to consider fumbles; Rodgers has fumbled 6 times on 34 sacks. Assuming recovery rates on sacks are about 50/50 (which is what Football Perspective determined in a 2012 study), that's 3 turnovers. If Rodgers had forced a few more passes, would he have thrown 3 more interceptions? You also probably would consider a fumble to be a worse turnover for the offense, given field position.

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167 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by DGL // Nov 27, 2018 - 4:34pm

That is a good point, especially since his fumble rate this season isn't an outlier (over his career, he has 77 fumbles and 397 sacks) - which combined with the 50% average recovery rate means he has about a 10% turnover rate on sacks, compared to a career 1.5% interception rate.

Now, passes thrown under duress are probably more likely to be intercepted than the average, but even if he's 5x more likely than average to throw an interception when trying to avoid a sack, that's less likely than losing the ball on a sack/fumble (and as you note, a sack/fumble usually gives the defense better field position than an interception).

The right answer, of course, is to just throw the ball into the stands before he gets sacked even if he's still in the pocket and take the intentional grounding penalty, which avoids the possibility of either an interception or a lost fumble.

And to get back to the original point, a sack on third down isn't so much a hidden turnover as it is about 10% of a hidden turnover (assuming the fumble rates on sacks for Rodgers aren't too far out of the ordinary, which I haven't bothered to look up).

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5 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 10:45am

That's a 290-pound man dressed like a traffic cone, so I have no idea how Ben didn't see him.

Perhaps he blended into the traffic-cone orange "R" in the end zone lettering. Finally, something useful for monotone uniforms!

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7 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 10:50am

But he also takes a lot of sacks where it really does seem like he has an opportunity to get rid of the ball safely, and he still doesn't. And, as that article's first section notes, it happens unusually often on third down. And it's not entirely wrong to call that a hidden turnover.

Does film review show open receivers on those plays?

Because throwing it away is like taking a TO to avoid delay of game on a punt -- you're kicking it away anyway. The yards lost don't matter. So long as you don't fumble, you're better off taking the risk of the sack for the chance to convert any of those you wouldn't have had you thrown the ball away to avoid the sack.

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11 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Xexyz // Nov 26, 2018 - 11:12am

I believe the argument the article was making is that Aaron would be better served throwing a pass that has a chance of being intercepted than to simply hold onto the ball and take a sack on 3rd down.

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48 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Eddo // Nov 26, 2018 - 2:42pm

Right.

It's akin to investing. If you are a serious investor and make money on every single investment, the proper conclusion is that you're not investing in enough. Your threshold is too high if your hit rate is 100%; if you made more 60-70% investments, you'd be making even more money in the long run.

Rodgers's interception rate is so low - and his sack rate high enough - that he probably should be "forcing" the ball more.

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53 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by ChrisLong // Nov 26, 2018 - 3:08pm

Man, I agree with both lines of argument here and now my head might explode. I'd love to see some EdjSports/similar numbers on what's the better course of action, take a sack or make a risky throw. Maybe using the pass completion odds that some of the telecasts have been using as a way to calibrate it?

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59 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by tuluse // Nov 26, 2018 - 3:42pm

Or another sports analog. A missed shot in basketball has value. If you hold the ball and get a shot clock violation, it's a 100% chance of a bad thing happening for your team. A missed shot can lead to an offensive rebound or a turnover in transition.

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24 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:04pm

Agreed. Taking sacks mostly on 3rd down would suggest good football sense.

As long as you're not giving up a safety or being knocked out of reasonable field goal range, holding the ball a little longer to give your receivers more of a chance to get open seems like the right risk-reward decision in 3rd down. On 1st or 2nd, throw it away. On 3rd, retaining possession >> 7 yards of field position after a punt.

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8 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 10:52am

Aaron Schatz: Rodgers underthrew Equanimeous St. Brown on second-and-1, overthrew an open Davante Adams on third-and-1. Both of those throws are on him. And then ... the Packers kick a field goal. The fourth-and-1 is so much easier to convert than whatever fourth down the Packers will have to try to convert if they recover an onside kick here. They should have gone for it, not kicked the field goal.

Normally I would agree. But then, normal QBs don't have Rodgers luck in converting Hails Mary.

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10 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by jtr // Nov 26, 2018 - 11:11am

The Jaguars coaching staff should be banned from wearing those "BOLD CITY" hoodies they were in this weekend. You don't get to call yourselves bold when your entire season has been defined by your unwillingness to even attempt to move the ball on offense.

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96 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:33pm

Or are they calling the city of Jacksonville bold? Actually, that isn't any better…

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145 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by dryheat // Nov 27, 2018 - 9:27am

Seems rather a forced, self-given nickname. Like if I declared that my new nickname was going to be Mr. Dangerous and started wearing a hoodie saying so.

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162 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Nov 27, 2018 - 1:06pm

Do that. You should totally do that!

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13 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Pen // Nov 26, 2018 - 11:53am

"It was an obvious call on replay and an easy reversal to a score, but as close as he would have been, was it worth risking a challenge there?"

First: This would be like having the sun rise, a ref ruling that the sun did not rise, me looking at the sun rising in the sky and throwing a challenge flag then you, also seeing that the sun has, indeed, risen in the sky asking " is it worth risking a challenge flag here?"

To which every human being on earth looks at you in wonder and asks "what risk?"

Second: Super Bowl 49. Or the NFCCG vs SF when Lynch fumbled at the goal line. THAT is a risk.

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14 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by drobviousso // Nov 26, 2018 - 11:54am

I have always hated the non-intuitive and archaic rules related to fumbles in the end zone. Can anyone explain them to me? When my wife asked, I totally lied and said that it was a rule that made more sense in 1890 when no one was forward-passing and games ended in scores like 5-4. She accepted this, but I gotta look like I know what I'm talking about next time it comes up?

I could wanting to avoid a Holly Roller... but we already have Holly Roller rules, don't we?

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18 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by dbostedo // Nov 26, 2018 - 12:30pm

It's my least favorite rule in football. I don't know the genesis of it either, but it seems to me that a fumble through the endzone should just be the fumbling team's ball at the spot where it was fumbled. I don't understand why it's suddenly a turnover, without a recovery, when everywhere else that the ball can go out of play on a fumble, it's not a turnover. (I suppose it could go the other way, and the NFL could make any fumble that goes out of bounds a turnover... at least it would seem more consistent to me.)

Here's an article where the author agrees : https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/11/15/16653504/fumble-turned-touchbac...

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19 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by PatsFan // Nov 26, 2018 - 12:34pm

There's only one non-intuitive one -- if the offense fumbles the ball into the EZ and it goes OOB with no one recovering, it is the defense's ball on the defense's 20.

Note that it is impossible for the offense to fumble the ball in the EZ. If the offense has possession in the EZ (and you have to have possession to be able to fumble in the first place) it is a TD and the ball is dead.

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25 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:05pm

It's only impossible for the offense to fumble the ball in the opponent's end zone. They are perfectly free to fumble the ball in their own.

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27 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by nat // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:11pm

The Holy Roller rules (which are obscure and arbitrary, but necessary to discourage intentional fumbles and to avoid arbitrary reffing calls about fumbling intent) are newer than the fumble out of bounds in the end zone rule. So we did not "already" have them.

If by "explain" you mean "explain what it means", are you daft? You know exactly what it means: A loose ball going out of bounds in an end zone is awarded to the team defending that end zone, resulting in a safety or touch back depending on the situation.

If you mean "explain why it is needed", the answer is that there MUST be a rule defining possession of a ball that goes out of bounds. Such a rule is ALWAYS going to be arbitrary, awarding possession to a team that has not earned it by recovering the ball.

The rule as it stands gives results that we expect for things like blocked punts: to get the TD you HAVE to POSSESS the ball in the end zone. If you merely block the punt out the back of the end zone, you get a safety instead, even though a punt going out of bounds in any other way is always awarded to the receiving team. I've never heard anyone complain about that. TDs are special, and should always be earned.

To emphasize: the rules are arbitrary. They have to be. There is no moral or logical high ground to be had here. The rules as they stand work well for punts (in my opinion), "unfairly" reward the offense or kick-receiving team in the main field of play, and "unfairly" reward the defense in its own end zone. There is no "fair" rule possible, and this configuration of rules is among the fairest, tilting neither to the offense nor the defense.

The best thing about the rules as they stand is that there is absolutely no encouragement to "accidentally on purpose" fumble a ball through the end zone. That eliminates a lot of bad stuff that would otherwise happen.

Ultimately, there's a simple solution to all this: hold onto the damned ball.

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39 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:48pm

I think if you block a FG back through the offense's goal posts, it should count for 3 instead of 2.

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44 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by DGL // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:56pm

I think if a FG attempt is kicked hard enough that the block is capable of carrying it all the way back to the kicking team's own goal posts, the kicking team should get three points.

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46 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 2:12pm

Who has to pay for the kick blocker's funeral?

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101 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Bobman // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:55pm

I'm okay, coach, I'm okay. it just knocked the wind out of me. Forever.

I'll assume the attempt is about 60 yards (i.e. at midfield) and the blocker is right there as well, making both the kick attempt and the rebounded FG roughly 60 yards. Man, the blocker would have to have his poor torso angled perfectly to make this happen.
Might have to pull Madden out of retirement to join forces with Neil DeGrasse Tyson to telestrate the angle of incidence=angle of reflection and F=MA aspects of that play. After an appropriate moment of silence, of course.

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109 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Andrew Potter // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:07pm

As somebody who has watched a disproportionate amount of the Buccaneers over the past few seasons, I'm confused by the assumption that a field goal going through the team's own goalposts would necessarily be the result of a block.

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147 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 27, 2018 - 9:45am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jR8hMnJusQ

Johnny Hekker had a backwards punt against Wisconsin while at Oregon State.

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43 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by DGL // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:53pm

I don't see why you're conflating the rules for punts with the rules for fumbles. On a punt, the offense is intentionally surrendering possession of the ball. It is literally against the rules for the offense to touch the ball after it's punted before the defense touches it*. There is no need for consistency between the rules for possession following a punt and those following a fumble.

And of course the rules are arbitrary; all rules are arbitrary. But as they currently stand, they seem to massively overweight the significance of the goal line. Fumble a ball at the one yard line and have it bounce out of bounds an inch outside the pylon, and you retain possession with the ball spotted one inch from the goal line. Fumble a ball at the one yard line and have it bounce out of bounds an inch inside the pylon, and you lose possession.

Clearly the rule can't be identical for a ball fumbled out of bounds in the field of play and one fumbled out of bounds in the end zone; it makes no sense to award a team a touchdown for fumbling the ball through the end zone. But it seems overkill to surrender possession based on a two-inch difference in where the ball goes out of bounds.

Changing the rule so that the fumbling team retains possession at the spot of the fumble, or at the one yard line (using the analogy of a spot foul in the end zone) wouldn't encourage any "accidental on purpose" fumbles through the end zone - if you fumble the ball, the best outcome you can get is a dead ball spot at the spot of the fumble (or the one) and the worst outcome is that the other team gets the ball; if you don't fumble the ball, the best outcome you can get is a touchdown and the worst is a dead ball with possession. (And batting the ball forward so it goes out of bounds in the end zone to give you a better dead-ball spot is already a penalty that moves the ball back ten yards.)

* The enforcement is only that the defense gets possession of the ball at the point where the offense touched it - but it is by definition an "illegal touch".

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135 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by LionInAZ // Nov 26, 2018 - 11:57pm

The rules already favor the offense... why change them to make another rule that favors the offense?
I agree with nat -- some rules just have to be arbitrary.

Or to be less arbitrary: the end zone fumble rule ensures that the offense can't benefit by directing the ball out of bounds.

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140 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Nov 27, 2018 - 2:12am

Yeah but it's not as if that's a problem that needs a rule

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47 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Bright Blue Shorts // Nov 26, 2018 - 2:27pm

The non-intuitive and archaic rules make sense in 1890 when American football was recently an off shoot of Rugby Football, which itself was an offshoot from Association Football (soccer).

Think of how in soccer whenever the ball goes out of play - goal-line or sidelines - it is given to the opposition.

Now consider the American Football situation is less intuitive since they moved the goalposts off the goal-line (1974) but the goal-line rules essentially still apply in their own way. Offense fumbles through its own endzone - it's a safety. Offense fumbles through opposition's endzone, it's a touchback. And also because when an offense fumbles along the sideline it retains possession - whereas in soccer it's a throw-in for the opposition.

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55 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by gomer_rs // Nov 26, 2018 - 3:17pm

This - right here!

The endzones are 'possessed' by the other team, like the goal in soccer, because soccer begat rugby and rugby begat grid-iron American and Canadian football (invented by the Canadians). Thus fumbling out of bounds in the area of field possessed by the other team is the same as the other team recovering the ball in their possesion.

Because the endzones are 'possessed' by the team which defends that goal, a fumble exiting the endzone, out of bounds, is treated as a recovery by the team who 'possesses' the endzone... in the endzone.

I kinda think the change of possesion on a fumble out of bounds would be good, but before modern fumble rates the games would have been unwatchable.

_______

I remember when they were the Sea-chickens.

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61 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by tuluse // Nov 26, 2018 - 3:50pm

This doesn't have an analog to soccer as far as I can tell. In soccer, if the ball is in the goal, a team has scored. Doesn't matter how it got there and soccer doesn't have nearly as strong of an idea of possession.

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72 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:23pm

That's not true.

Illegal touches, offsides, and indirect free-kicks into the goal result in a ball in the net but no scores awarded.

Also, if you're England before VAR, simply poor refereeing results in the same.

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88 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by DGL // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:09pm

A throw-in that goes directly into the opponent's goal is also not a goal, but a goal kick.

(It's not unheard of in youth soccer. My son once reffed a U12 game where it happened.)

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99 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:50pm

It almost happened in top level European soccer recently. A teammate threw in to the goalie, who wasn't ready for it, who then tried to "save" the ball, but by touching it it became live and the own goal counted.

I don't remember what team (or league!) this happened to, but it was covered at Deadpsin.

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170 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by LondonMonarch // Nov 27, 2018 - 6:32pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiHlrv_81O8

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122 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by tuluse // Nov 26, 2018 - 7:37pm

I think play stoppages and penalties/fouls are their own category and certainly don't apply to an action that happens during live play (ie a fumble).

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62 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by ChrisS // Nov 26, 2018 - 3:58pm

There are many other situations that plays in the end zone are treated differently. Touchbacks on kicks & punts, safeties, touchbacks on turnovers in the endzone, offensive holding penalty, no offensive fumbles while in the endzone, defensive pass interference enforcement, getting points for getting the ball into the end zone. The end zone is qualitatively different from the rest of the field and so it has different rules. Instead of changing the treatment of fumbles through the EZ why not advocate for changing the treatment of fumbles OOB to be turnovers in all cases. That would most consistent.

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71 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:21pm

In soccer, the opponent of the team that last touchedthe ball gets possession. It's not possession-based, and it's susceptible to non-carded fouls on the play.

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15 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 12:06pm

I know most people like Collinsworth, but I just don't get it anymore. Whether it's saying that a guy (Thielen) who runs a 4.45 forty and catches nearly everything he touches isn't a great athlete, or his nonsensical yapping about Cousins, he was really bad last night. He'd apparently would have you believe that Cousins ate Special Take Responsibility for Your Contract Spinach last week, which is why his performance against the Packers was so much better than it was against the Bears. Apparently, playing on the road against a much better and healthier defense, with your bad offensive line getting their asses whipped for 3 hours, is less significant, and also it is apparently to be ignored that adjusted for that defense, Cousins played reasonably well against the Bears. That's before we get to Collinsworth telling us 437 times that having Rodgers is both a blessing and a curse for McCarthy's job security. Hey, Chris? One time per half will suffice. I watched the game with people who need announcers last night, and rediscovered why I normally mute the volume.

As to what I saw, once again injuries are one of the most significant factors in how teams arrive at their w-l records. The job Pettine is doing with the Packers defense reminds me of how well Shurmur performed with the Vikings offense in 2016. Really admirable work. The Vikings o-line wasn't that talented to begin with, and injuries and Sparano's death have reduced them to once again being terrible, even at home against an injury depleted defense. On the other side, if Rhodes' hamstring injury is serious, as it appears to be, the Vikings are likely cooked.

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20 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by jtr // Nov 26, 2018 - 12:36pm

I've always liked Pettine and I don't understand why it took him so long to get another shot at a defensive coordinator gig. He was one of the masterminds of Rex Ryan's excellent Baltimore and New York defenses. By all accounts he was the moderating influence who crafted workable playcalls out of Ryan's wildest ideas--Rex might have blitzed eight guys every single play if nobody was there to tell him not to. Pettine had a bad run as the Browns head coach, but so has every single person to take that job for the New Browns. He's obviously a very capable defensive coach, and it was pretty stupid of the NFL that nobody snapped him up in the two years after he was canned from the Browns gig.

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57 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by yavimaya_eldred // Nov 26, 2018 - 3:37pm

I've never really liked Collinsworth and I've never really gotten the adoration of him as a color guy. I remember a TB/GB game a few years ago where Favre was playing horribly and constantly overthrowing his receivers, and Collinsworth kept blaming it on the route-running of the receivers. After Favre's third awful interception, Collinsworth finally entertained the notion that Brett wasn't playing very well, but ended up doubling down that Donald Driver was bad at his job. That certainly colored my perception of him, and nothing he's done since then has impressed me. Every now and then he has a good insight, but he's so stubborn when he's wrong and comes off as talking down to his audience which is a pretty bad combination.

There are certainly a lot of bad color commentators but Collinsworth being better than some of them does not make him good.

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84 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by drobviousso // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:51pm

I like Collinsworth. I don't think he's perfect, but I think he's a damn sight better than most other announcers. I'll try to defend him.

1) I find his on-screen character to actually exist - as in, he has one. He plays himself as the kind of guy who got by in life with good looks, a winning smile, and just enough talent to eek out an inconspicuous career in the NFL. I don't know how true this is (buying into PFF when he had a platform to radically alter it's profitability seems like a pretty shrewd move...), but it allows him to gush about how great his Hero of the Week is without making it sound like himself. When I go on Youtube and watch a professional metal-style drummer do his thing, or when I watch a skilled knife-maker do his thing, I get a strong feeling of awe - I'm never going to be as good at anything as this guy is with a drum kit / grinding belt. Collinsworth puts off the sense of awe when he's gushing over the players on the field. I don't know if is sincere or not, but if not he fakes sincerity enough for me. Yeah, it can be a bit much when he's lauding one of the NFL's "villains" like Brady or whatever, but honestly I enjoy it when he's gushing over "my guy."

2) He loves football. Like a lot, and it comes through. (or he fakes it well) In a world where Joe (^*()& Buck and Marv Albert's kid trade on their sonorousness voice and nothing more, Collinsworth plays a character that wouldn't want to be anywhere else in the world doing anything else in the world. I liked it when Mike Mayock did this. I like it when I hear it from Tony Romo. I like it when I hear it from Collinsworth. He's paid to talk about a child's game for a living, and he sounds like he knows exactly how lucky that makes him. I find that to be endearing.

3) Even when he's wrong, he's still trying to show his audience something that they might not have seen themselves. He doesn't treat his audience like they are too stupid to actually understand football. Maybe he's only explaining it at the level of a JV team's understanding, but that's better than most of the other announcers as far as respecting his audience.

I remember Aaron Rodger's coming-out party game. Collinsworth called out to the audience that they should watch the stripe on his helmet, and then watch his eyes, because the ball isn't going to go to either one of those places. And he was right. Rodgers was using his head orientation and his eyes to throw off the secondary in his first game in the NFL, and Collinsworth started gushing about it.

if you don't like gushing, you might not like that kind of thing here. But I thought, as a spectator, that it was really nice to have that pointed out by someone who treated it like an amazing spectacle worth being excited over.

So yeah, i'll take his over-eager, over-systematizing, 8-year-old-who-wants-to-tell-you-about-his-pokemon-deck personality over, for example, a guy named Booger on a rickety animatronic cart or whatever the alternative is.

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90 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:12pm

"Better than Booger McFarland" is the most faint praise imaginable.

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91 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by justanothersteve // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:13pm

I'll take Collinsworth over most color guys, though his errors can make me visibly cringe. At least his errors aren't that frequent, especially compared to Sims and a few other high-visibility color men. You're right in that he at least has a personality and that's probably why I enjoy him more than Aikman and several other ex-players. I also enjoy that he does take the effort to explain things. Romo seems to understand all this. It's what made Madden so fun, even when he was being pompous. I think the originators of the fun booth were Meredith and Cosell on the original MNF. They always seemed to be having fun, even if they were sometimes a bit cocktailed.

Aikman might actually be enjoyable paired with a more energetic play-by-play announcer and away from Buck. Buck might actually be fine if paired with a more animated color guy like Romo. But together they make listeners seriously consider slashing their wrists.

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98 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:46pm

Aikman would not be good no matter who he's paired with. The entirety of his "analysis" or "insight" are things you might read about football on the back of a kids' cereal box.

Collinsworth was the best in the biz circa 2015, but an absolutely idiotic controversey happened where dumb Broncos fans perceived Cris was "rooting against the Broncos" because he was neutral and not actively rooting FOR the Broncos. I don't know if there's any actual causation between that and him falling off a cliff, but the correlation is strong enough that I wonder.

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100 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:54pm

I like that Romo predicts plays, and then explains afterward what he saw and why he was right or wrong.

He also seems really enthusiastic about football.

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149 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by dryheat // Nov 27, 2018 - 9:47am

Just wanted to recognize your use of cocktail as a verb. I like it, and will likely use it often this holiday season.

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168 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by CaffeineMan // Nov 27, 2018 - 4:45pm

"I think the originators of the fun booth were Meredith and Cosell on the original MNF. They always seemed to be having fun, even if they were sometimes a bit cocktailed."

Cosell: Welcome to the Mile High City!
Meredith: And I certainly am!

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107 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Bobman // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:05pm

Put me in the driver's seat of the Really Don't Like Colinsworth Bandwagon.

I like his enthusiasm and the general knowledge he displays and imparts, but he talks way too much and when he starts discussing specific players the nausea begins. Dude, shut up and observe the plays and relate that back to us.

Remember how we used to ridicule Theisman providing color on TNT Nitro? The gameday discussions were full of mini-parodies like "Quarterback So and so and I were having dinner together the other night and he said to me..." followed by "the OC and I were having a sauna yesterday and he indicated that he plans to ...." It was great fun because Theisman shamelessly "name-dropped" about the access the booth guys get to the teams and we roasted him for it.

Same should go for Collinsworthless when he gives bogus, blatantly wrong, and personal insights into the players. Also, watch five weeks in a row, and odds are good that (according to CC) you will have seen the five best pass rushers in the game, five best RBs, and five QBs who have nobody better than them in the game. He just drops these comments like breathing.

Last note (and this is more of an Al Michaels issue, along with many other announcers, but CC does it as well): Each year in the NFL, there is only one "number one" pick. Any given season, there are likely to be about a dozen number ones playing in all of football. But every game, they glibly refer to a team's first round pick (could be #1, could be #32) as a number one pick. Yes, he might be THEIR number 1 pick that year, but it's grossly misleading. And in some games, they'll point out two rookies from the same year who are both number one picks. Which cannot be, Harry Mudd.

Oh crap, my head just exploded. BRB...

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112 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:28pm

Is the "everybody is the greatest ever" schtick a direct result of the dumb Denver controversy? There's reason to believe it is…

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128 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 10:37pm

No, that’s been an infection at ESPN for 15 years.

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125 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by BJR // Nov 26, 2018 - 8:49pm

I always really liked Collinsworth relative to other announcers, but have also become weary of him recently. A lot of that could just be boredom and over-familiarity, so that minor faults/idiosyncrasies have begun to grate (much like in any relationship......). Some of it could be laziness creeping in on his part. After a decade or so of announcing these games is he still motivated to really put in the homework every week? Is that why he is increasingly falling back on hyperbole and cliche?

Still, he is almost undeniably still a lot better than most announcers out there, so be wary of what you wish for.

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132 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Nov 26, 2018 - 11:33pm

No, don't be wary! Sure, it could get a lot worse, probably (I assume), but that's not a reason to be conservative or to put up with the sub-par drivel we accept as normal! We need to take a high-variance approach, with high turnover giving lots of guys chances, until we find the next twenty Romos!

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142 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Jerry // Nov 27, 2018 - 7:59am

I predict that you'll be as sick of Romo in ten years as you are of Collinsworth or Aikman now.

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151 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by BJR // Nov 27, 2018 - 9:51am

Yes it will be a surprise if Romo still matches the enthusiasm and energy he puts in now, in ten years time. He's also bound to lose touch somewhat as the game evolves and his playing career disappears into the rear view mirror. And that's before we all get fed up with the sound of his voice.

I'd dearly love to hear Belichick in the booth someday, but I'd put long odds on it happening.

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154 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by dryheat // Nov 27, 2018 - 10:08am

I can't imagine Belichick full time in the booth, but if he was so inclined, he'd probably be pretty great as the number 3 guy they go to once or twice a game for some insights on particular plays, sort of how the networks utilized former referees.

BB seems more suited for a halftime or postgame studio role. Imagine a guy there that's not guffawing at his own jokes and slapping the backs of the guys next to him. Dare I dream?

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163 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Nov 27, 2018 - 1:17pm

Belichick doing the round table pre game picks.

Host: "Who do you think's going to win tonight, Coach?"

BB: "Whoever scores the most points."

Host: "Yeah, but which team do you think that will be, Coach?"

BB: "How the hell am I supposed to know who's going to play well tonight??? Let's watch the game already."

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148 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by dryheat // Nov 27, 2018 - 9:46am

Hell, I was sick of Romo by week 6 of last season. Now there's a guy who loves the sound of his voice. We get it -- you see football in a way we can't, and I appreciate it. Now take a breath once in a while.

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150 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 27, 2018 - 9:48am

Agreed.

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16 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by johonny // Nov 26, 2018 - 12:21pm

Temperature in Miami today-Fans want the QB, coach, GM, team president, owner, fins-up logo, and kitchen sink out. Given Ross's willingness to accept bad roster moves, bad trades, bad drafts, bad free agent signings, bad salary caps moves, and terrible football, I'm sure this will continue on and on into the future.

Something has to give this offseason. It's pretty clear Miami's roster is filled with guys that don't fit Gase's schemes, and every year he's been there, they draft more and trade for more guys he can't use. Their horrid 2017 draft has really killed his career. Seems like either Gase or the GM goes at this point. Gase looks like a coach that wants out of Miami, but the question I have is, with that owner and front office, who'd want in? Gase was the best fans could possibly hope for three years ago. Now?

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17 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 12:28pm

It'll never happen, and I'm not a passenger on the Anti-McCarthy train, but it'd be interesting to see Gase work with Rodgers.

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22 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by big10freak // Nov 26, 2018 - 12:54pm

If I was a fan of a NFC North team right now I would be all for the Packers keeping MM.

I was a strong defender of Mike for a long time, but his work since the Seattle meltdown has grown steadily more erratic and at times bizarre.

Personally I think the guy is burned out at least in GB.

I know the saying is if you listen to the fans on decision-making you will sit with the fans. But I am pretty sure that if Mark Murphy tells the Board after the season that McCarthy is returning he may end up seeing himself fired. The entire tenor in the organization right now is toxic.

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26 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:05pm

Don't get me wrong; I'm not in his fan club, either. I just need to watch a team really, really, closely to have a confident opinion on coaching performance, in all but the most obvious situations, and the only team I watch that closely is about 300 miles west.

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30 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by big10freak // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:15pm

I get that. Regarding MM I also think it is really hard to remain effective as a leader in any organization for more than five years for a host of reasons. So that is another thing working against Mike.

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32 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:21pm

Mike McCarthy to CIN for Marv Lewis as a straight up trade. Probably better for all involved.

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33 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:23pm

Mike McCarthy going from the Packers board of directors, to Mike Brown, would be a gigantic step down. He may well prefer retirement.

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31 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:21pm

Oh, the shelf life issue is real, that's for sure, in all but the most unusual situations. Just on the basis of 13 seasons, a change must be a strong possibility.

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34 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by big10freak // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:26pm

I don't prescribe to the Bill Simmons body language assessment BS, but it's not unreasonable to surmise that 12 is pretty much done listening to MM. And when a leader has lost his best guy that's a problem for any organization

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28 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by johonny // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:12pm

As far as I can tell Gase's main problem in Miami is that he uses his wideouts like running backs too much. He's got every single wideout on the team hurt this year with his dink and dink more approach. Apparently Landry's real power in the NFL was the ability to take 110+ running back style hits as an undersized flanker. I don't think what Gase's doing in Miami on offense works anywhere. Then again, with Rogers, maybe he uses a different playbook. The playbook Miami has Stills and Parker for, but they only use it 1 or 2 games every season.

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35 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by theslothook // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:42pm

Honestly, is Miami even that talented? There is nothing special about this team other than Howard and Fitzpatrick. The fact that they are 500 and have been competitive this season suggests they have overachieved.

Gase's playcalling, like MM, is likely based on the personnel available. I'm not a fan of the Packers offense either btw.

Gase may not be a good head coach, but it's hard for me to look at this roster and think some other coach could squeeze more out of it.

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81 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by justanothersteve // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:42pm

I think that would work good. Maybe not as HC, but I could see a new coach hiring Gase to be OC if he gets fired in Miami.

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21 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by big10freak // Nov 26, 2018 - 12:42pm

I think the Aggressiveness Index may have a McCarthy related flaw, because McCarthy is as risk averse as they come as a coach. The fourth down decision-making seen tonight is SOP for MM. GB had fourth and four at the MN 41 with 3 minutes left in the first half. That is an obvious place to go for it on fourth down for a team that is desperate. The stupid ruse was pointless.

More specifically, Jones is a better overall back than Williams. But Williams one plus relative to Jones is that he is bigger, stronger and well suited for short yardage. Using Jones in that situation was not optimal. So MM is now using Jones more frequently but not grasping when to best utilize Williams.

Kenny Clark's usage is pretty outrageous. GB is shorthanded on the d-line and the young guy is clearly handling the workload to date. But boy what are the long term implications?

Josh Jones and Josh Jackson are on the field because GB is desperate for healthy bodies in the secondary but the next time either makes a play, any play, will be a first.

And what was Tramon Williams thinking on that punt??? JFC.

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23 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 12:58pm

The Vikings o-line damned near managed to make that game close at the end. Red zone offense in particular gets ugly when blocking is very occasional.

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37 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Damon // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:46pm

"Vikings were statistically the better team, but it's tied on the scoreboard, just like last time."

Gotta disagree with you on this Scott.

Last night, yes the Vikings were better, in Week 2? Heck no.

The Packers led by 10 at halftime and 13 after 3 quarters. Meanwhile, the Vikings scored 7 points in their first 7 posessions in the Week 2 matchup, while the Packers were a holding call on a Jimmy Graham touchdown away from a 24-7 lead in the 3rd quarter.

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38 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:47pm

How great is it that Luck is no longer being fed to the wolves by incompetent doofi?

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41 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:49pm

Now they have no excuse for their relentless mediocrity.

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42 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by theslothook // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:51pm

Luck trusts his offense line, something he likely never did before.

I still don't think the colts are that talented outside of their offensivebline and a few players here and there. Despite Ebron's career Renaissance, this team is still one injury to Hilton away from being severely limited.

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45 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:59pm

A healthy Luck, a good o-line, and competent coaching is only a couple of reasonably good draft picks and/or free agent signings away from being a really good team. As somebody who feared Luck's career might end up mostly wasted, this is a very positive development.

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110 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Bobman // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:13pm

How great is it that you pluralized doofus to doofi and nobody even blinked?

And yeah, so happy Pagano and Grigson are gone, though it took a few years too long (as Pagano alluded to in an interview or presser--saying Luck bought him a couple extra seasons). Even before the current win streak, I was really happy with a team that was starting like four rookies and had a couple others see significant playing time. Now I'll be really bummed if they don't make the playoffs (though not sure the team deserves it or would make any noise), but a month ago I was happy to see Luck being productive and protected, the run game get some traction, and the kids playing above their pay grade/draft slot.

If they wildcard in and face Houston, they could advance. Pittsburgh has been their kryptonite since 2014, however, and has always been playoff poison going back to the 70s. I think Ben averages about 5 TDs vs Indy since 2014.

Next year, though, for sure.

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124 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 8:43pm

Pagano actually did that? That's awesome! Reminds me of the worst season in Vikings history, 1984, when by mid season even the most professional veterans decided that they weren't risking anything for a team coached by Les Steckel, Leader of Men, and completely bugged out, like the parade watchers in the last scene of "Animal House" (Les in the Kevin Bacon role).

The average margin of loss in December was about 31 points, so ol' Les was fired as soon as he stepped into the stadium tunnel, after the final game. About an hour later, Viking all time tackling leader, team captain, future Ring of Honor member and Scouting Director, Scott Studwell, was interviewed on t.v., and was asked his thoughts about the firing. As he gave the best cliche filled statement that said nothing, he wore a white baseball cap with the letters AMF written across the front. A guy next to me in the saloon, who knew Studwell, starts laughing, and says, "He did it!" He told me he would!". I say "Did what?" He says "AMF" stands for "Adios, Motherfucker"!"

Almost made the season worthwhile....

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40 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by theslothook // Nov 26, 2018 - 1:48pm

I watched Tom Brady very closely this week after reading Tanier's article. Good news, he's far from zombie Manning territory. Bad news: he's at a point in his career where he probably can't compensate for his offense the way he used to. He can still scan the field well, but he needs a generally clean pocket and sufficient spacing to plant his feet and set his shoulders. Having a healthy Gronk to dictate defenses is a big bonus too as his accuracy to non Gronk receivers has definitely taken a step back.

In the qb hierarchy, he's still a top 5 player, but this is the first time since 2005 that I no longer regard him as otherworldly.

Still, Gronk plus a good ground game is enough to make the pats offense dangerous still.

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49 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Nov 26, 2018 - 2:45pm

Brady was coming off a bye week, with a rested arm.

I'd expect a run heavy Pats offence in their last 3 divisional games, to limit the number of passes by Brady heading into the playoffs. Vikes and Steelers games may be a different story, as those two will likely require a lot more points for the Pats to have a chance to win.

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73 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Anon Ymous // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:23pm

Brady was coming off a bye week, with a rested arm.

....with a knee injury and having missed Friday's practice due to illness. :)

Just pushing back a little. Tom clearly isn't the same guy, I think is top 5 is overstating it, he's in the lower half of the top 10, IMO. The throw that bugged me was the late toss to Gronk on 3rd down of their opening drive. A quicker throw is an easy first, but he was late in recognizing and a hair slow through the motion, which gave the safety time to break it up. There's been at least a couple of these per game this year.

All this time I thought his mind would carry him through the decline, but it's been disorienting seeing him look so confused this year. I suppose some of that could be chalked up to weaponry, at least for September. But he's done a lot more with a lot less in the past, which is why I attribute most of it to general decline. NE needs to get his successor this offseason or they risk a serious bottoming out in 2020.

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74 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:24pm

It's really weird how a decline in physical ability leads to mental confusion. It is as if the lack of extreme confidence in physical ability promotes uncertainty as to what physical actions should be attempted. We'll see how rapidly it advances with Brady.

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102 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:57pm

I don't think it's purely confident, although some might be.

I think it's a collision between expected result and actual result. Your mind has been trained for certain things to happen in a certain amount of time. The game is a lot harder when that timing suddenly changes.

There's a reason there's an expression known as "losing your fastball." Suddenly your body can't cash checks your brain is writing. Some people can overcome that while guile for a little while. Some people for a long time. But no one can do it forever.

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120 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by johonny // Nov 26, 2018 - 7:32pm

I think these guys get so used to being able to hit receivers in tight windows, that when they can't anymore it looks way worse a decision to throw than it would have been just the season before. You really saw that from Marino his last season and Manning his last season. When you're suddenly a touch late and a tad floating ... you suddenly look like an idiot at reading the field. Likely though, they read the field correctly they just didn't throw the pass they used to throw.

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77 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by theslothook // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:31pm

Funny thing was - Manning's decline wasn't just physical, he started throwing some terrible picks. I know Dave and others insist that it had more to do with Kubiak shoehorning Manning into his run motion offense and maybe that's the case, but it was truly alarming to see Manning make so many poor decisions.

I think once you are in general decline, you start to second guess everything. I hate the cliche of being in a rhythm, but I have to think that playing QB at a high level is such an instinctual thing that when you can't trust one part of your game, it bleeds into everything else. Split second indecisions are magnified in the NFL.

Also - as far as Qbs I'd rather have right now than Tom Brady...

Drew Brees for sure. Matt Ryan less sure, but still yes. Stuck in the mud Aaron Rodgers? yeah. Big Ben? Yup. Russel Wilson? probably. Andrew Luck.... on the fence but kind of yea.

That's 6 qbs right there.

As for Goff and Mahomes, had to tell since both are in smart offenses with gobs of talent around them. But I'll throw them in too.

That puts Brady at 9th, so I guess top 5 was a stretch.

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123 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by PatsFan // Nov 26, 2018 - 8:28pm

Another good example (IMHO) of fading arm strength was the throw to Dorsett in the flat. Ball took forever to get there and the DB was able to immediately tackle him. If it was lasered in the way it used to be, Dorsett would have at least had a chance to make a move.

I think the confusion is because for 17 years he has trained himself to do "If I see this, throw it there" but now many of those "throw it there" throws are no longer safe because of the lost velocity. So he has to retrain himself, hence confusion.

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51 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by dmstorm22 // Nov 26, 2018 - 2:56pm

In his Monday Morning Digest, Tanier had a nice nugget on how revealing it was when the Pats got the ball on the 2 yard line right after the two-minute warning, they just ran three times and punted.

Any year previous to this, they probably throw at least once on that possession.

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152 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by dryheat // Nov 27, 2018 - 10:00am

He wasn't good -- particularly in the first half. He had that atrocious sequence when he badly missed a short pass to White on 1st down, badly missed a short pass to White on second down, missed a pretty big window on a throw to Gronk on third down.

I'll go as far to say that if the two teams had switched quarterbacks, the Pats would have gone into the half up by 20.

As for Brady long term...I don't know. It's possible that he was still suffering from the flu or whatever, but this wasn't a one-game aberration. It just looks mechanical to me though, and perhaps that can be fixed. If not, he's going to find December and January less forgiving.

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50 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Bright Blue Shorts // Nov 26, 2018 - 2:48pm

Saw a stat that yesterday was the first time since 1991 (under Belichick) that Cleveland had scored 28 pts in the 1st half ! Even allowing for their 3-4 year hiatus, that's still seems a long time ago.

I wonder how other teams compare.

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78 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:35pm

It's been done 356 times since the last time Cleveland did it. They actually did it twice in 1991.
23 teams have done it in the playoffs. Three of those teams lost. You can probably name two of those games and you'll smack yourself for not getting the third.

I think every team has done it, although that's harder to search for.
http://pfref.com/tiny/Ck0u1

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97 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by dmstorm22 // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:43pm

Trying to name the playoff teams without thinking too much about it:

1992 Oilers in their 35-3 collapse
2002 Giants in their 38-14 collapse

The third one is making me think.....

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103 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:01pm

Indy's 38-10 comeback in 2014.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201401040clt.htm

Although in my head I was mixing it up with the no-punt game.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200401110kan.htm

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106 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:04pm

Seriously? You got the hard one (I wouldn't have ever remembered the Giants).

ETA: I was sure it was the 28-3 super suck bowl, but apparently they only had 21 at halftime.

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111 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by dmstorm22 // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:19pm

My God, how did I miss the Colts game against the Chiefs.

The first half of one of the best days of playoff football in recent memory (Saints def. Eagles 26-24 the other game).

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141 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Bright Blue Shorts // Nov 27, 2018 - 5:59am

Re 78 - Aaron Brooks ... data looks good.

I've just been through and every team had done since 1991.

The least recent now is the Jets from 2011. If Buffalo hadn't managed it a couple of weeks ago, they'd still be waiting since 2008.

Another way of looking at this stat is that it's the first time the rebooted Cleveland franchise has ever scored 28pts in 1st half. Meanwhile the Ravens have done it four times (2000, 2002, 2006, 2014).

Green Bay are the club house leaders on this with 27 times - 9 times from 1992-97 but also five times in 2011 and five times in 2014. Wow!

Meanwhile Detroit have only done it three times (1996, 2011, 2013) and Miami only three times (2002, 2011, 2015).

One thing that surprised me is that New England have 'only' done it sixteen times under Belichick. And only twice since 2012. I always thought his teams were about starting fast and hanging onto the lead, and they will when they can, but I think overall it shows that they use the boa constrictor method. Just keep squeezing every time the opponent takes an outbreath!

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153 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 27, 2018 - 10:07am

This doesn't quite match, but Tennessee scored 28 points in two quarters just on return TDs.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201212300oti.htm

Jacksonville got one of their own in the 4th quarter.

Took 4 quarters, but Seattle managed four defensive return TDs in this game.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/198411040sea.htm

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56 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by ChrisLong // Nov 26, 2018 - 3:21pm

Because I'm now preparing myself for the near-inevitable firing of McCarthy, who are the top coaching candidates out there and why do you like that particular person for the GB gig?

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58 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by aces4me // Nov 26, 2018 - 3:37pm

I hear Josh McDaniels might be available :)

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70 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Eddo // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:19pm

McDaniels + Rodgers would either be terrifying for Packer fans or terrifying for fans of every other team.

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65 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by tuluse // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:04pm

I continue to think some team is going to be very happy hiring Dave Toub and I really hope it isn't the Packers.

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80 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by justanothersteve // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:40pm

I'm hoping for Toub, or Harbaugh if the Ravens let him go. Keep Pettine as DC and hire someone under 40 to be OC.

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79 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:36pm

I'll pay you to take Fat Patricia.

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83 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Cythammer // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:45pm

John Harbaugh, reportedly.

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86 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by xydux // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:00pm

Since I don't like the Packers, I'm gonna say that they should hire Hue Jackson, with Rob Ryan as their defensive coordinator.

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104 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:01pm

And Jeff Fisher as the offensive coordinator.

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108 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:06pm

You are a war criminal....

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121 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by justanothersteve // Nov 26, 2018 - 7:36pm

That's just evil

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60 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by yavimaya_eldred // Nov 26, 2018 - 3:48pm

I've seen a lot of chatter online that the Packers are bad because the talent is poor, and I just don't get it. The team isn't supremely talented and has some holes, sure, but this is a team that many picked to be one of the best in the NFL, and there aren't many players having down seasons individually that would fly in the face of that prediction. The next logical conclusion is that they're beset by injuries, but they're always been among the league leaders in games missed and the injuries this season didn't turn catastrophic until a couple weeks ago.

The team is set at QB, WR1, LT, CB, and DL, which are all the most important positions. Kyle Fackrell has come out of nowhere to be a good pass rusher, MVS has been a pleasant surprise at WR, and Byron Bell has been shockingly competent as a fill-in guard. On paper this still looks like a playoff-caliber roster, yet the team is functionally dead with 5 games to go.

I think there's an obvious reason the team is where it's at, and its name rhymes with Schmike Schmccarthy.

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63 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by theslothook // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:02pm

I would say the packers overall depth is solid, but they lack stars. Davante Adams is a fine receiver, but I've seen Rodgers make James Jones look like a borderline pro bowler so call me skeptical with just how high my praise is.

Try to add up the collective sum of their skill talent and name me the teams that are worse than they are? I can name about 8 teams, but then its starts to become a debate - suggesting at best its an average unit and probably below average.

On defense, again, who are the stars? Matthews, Kenny Clark, Mike Daniels are all good players. None are great and the injuries to the secondary have been a thing. They might have one of the worst linebacking groups in the league.

Roll it up together and replace Rodgers with a qb like Tannehill and I think this team is a 5 win team.

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87 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by yavimaya_eldred // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:07pm

"Davante Adams is a fine receiver, but I've seen Rodgers make James Jones look like a borderline pro bowler so call me skeptical with just how high my praise is."

Davante Adams is extremely good. His route-running and run-after-the-catch ability are elite, and his catch skills have improved a ton since his second year when he had bricks for hands. He has the ability to get open deep despite good-not-great speed, but it doesn't show up in the box score very often because Rodgers rarely throws deep balls accurately anymore.

"On defense, again, who are the stars?"

Daniels and Clark are incredible, but because they're 3-4 linemen not named JJ Watt they don't tend to pile up traditional stats that get them the recognition they deserve. Jaire Alexander has been fantastic at corner and Blake Martinez is a very good inside linebacker. Kyle Fackrell is having a breakout season, but it's a small sample and he still disappears for stretches so I can't call him a star. Matthews is actually bad at this point in his career, but his aggressive over-pursuit will occasionally lead to a flashy play.

"Roll it up together and replace Rodgers with a qb like Tannehill and I think this team is a 5 win team."

With Rodgers they're probably a 5 win team. I don't think their talent level is close to that bad, but they're constantly finding ways to lose close games.

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64 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by big10freak // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:03pm

The special teams are a disaster. One could make the case that ST have directly resulted in multiple losses. At minimum ST have seriously undermined the team's ability to win several games.

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66 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by tuluse // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:05pm

I'm not a fan of the Packers current receiving corps.

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89 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by yavimaya_eldred // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:09pm

Injuries have hurt them there, but Brees is dealing with a similar problem (Mike Thomas and a bunch of young dudes) and hasn't missed a beat.

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114 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by theslothook // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:40pm

Alvin Kamara is awesome and for these purposes, functions as a quasi receiver.

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117 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by yavimaya_eldred // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:50pm

Kamara is awesome, but Jones is similarly efficient on the ground and has made impressive plays in the passing game when they do throw him the ball, which for some reason is rare.

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116 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Mike B. In Va // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:46pm

The Saints' young dudes are a lot better than the Packers version.

Sort of like Mott the Hoople and everyone else that ever touched that song.

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118 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by yavimaya_eldred // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:56pm

It's really hard to know how true this is. MVS and EQ have both been impressive for rookies, but Rodgers seems reluctant to throw to them even when they're open and he's been dreadful throwing deep this year, which is where those receivers' strengths are supposed to be. The Saints are likely much better at scheming guys open and Brees is having a much better season, so I don't think the talent gap at receiver is that severe.

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69 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by ChrisLong // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:15pm

I think pass-rusher, not DL per se, is a very important position where the Packers have very below average players. Not a single difference maker or really even an above average player. Fackrell, Matthews, and Perry are all just average and no team needs to scheme against them.

The pass-catchers are Davante Adams and not much else, yet. The rookies have potential but they have been exposed in recent weeks and can't beat man coverage. Cobb is hurt constantly and only average when he plays. Allison is just a guy. Jimmy Graham has looked stuck in the mud all year. You can't just have one threat in today's NFL, teams are just doubling Adams and daring Rodgers to throw to a bunch of average or worse dudes.

The CBs all have potential, and Alexander is good already, but the safeties are not good and Kevin King can't stay on the field for more than 2 games at a time.

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92 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by yavimaya_eldred // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:16pm

I don't know what to think of Fackrell yet, he's got good sack numbers but doesn't get consistent pressure. Perry and Matthews are just bad, and Gilbert has flashed in limited playing time but they won't pull the trigger and give him more snaps. Overall I agree that the defensive talent is very uneven, but the defense isn't bad enough to explain they're poor record, especially since most of the best teams in the league have mediocre-to-bad defenses.

Injuries have hurt their receiving core, but I don't think they're significantly worse off than what Brees is dealing with (Mike Thomas and some young dudes). Brady has also put up good numbers with bad skill position talent in the past, so I'm not letting them off the hook for this one. Good quarterbacks can make up for mediocre skill position talent, and the Packers' talent isn't nearly bad enough to justify how poor the offense has been.

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115 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by ChrisLong // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:43pm

I've been challenging this thought all over the comment boards lately and will do so again here: the Packers offense has not been bad this season. Coming into this week they were #6 in offensive DVOA. Passing #8, running #2. Not world-beating, but very good.

The Packers are one of the few teams that happen each year whose record doesn't reflect the actual quality of the team. They very easily could have won in LA, Seattle, and New England, and definitely should have against Minnesota in Week 2, but some bad luck and a few bad plays went against them. They could easily be anywhere from 6-4-1 to 8-3 right now with very little change in anything. That's life in the NFL, it's frustrating and disappointing that good play hasn't resulted in wins but what else can you do but play well.

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119 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by yavimaya_eldred // Nov 26, 2018 - 7:03pm

They've had a lot of close losses, but a lot of those losses happened because of players doing incredibly stupid things in key moments (Montgomery and Tramon fumbles, Brice on any number of throws downfield) combined with conservative coaching decisions and awful clock management. The last two things have been prevalent for years, but now with players not being able to execute on both sides of the ball it's become incredibly difficult to pull out wins.

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130 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by theslothook // Nov 26, 2018 - 11:07pm

They also had close wins against the 49ers and Bears. One could also argue they could be 2 8 and 1. Playing the what ifs cuts both ways too

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131 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by ChrisLong // Nov 26, 2018 - 11:12pm

Exactly. Wins and losses aren’t the way to judge teams and coaches. If the Packers had the same DVOA and were 2-8-1 that would be really frustrating and horrible and still not a reason to fire McCarthy.

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136 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by theslothook // Nov 27, 2018 - 12:07am

I know the record is probably on a lot of people's minds, but most of the anti MM comments I've read are more about the offensive malaise. People mostly forgave Sean Payton's lack of winning and comically awful defenses because he was an offensive coach and the offense remained strong.

The same cannot be said for MM.

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155 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 27, 2018 - 10:08am

Well...

part of coaching is closing games and making decisions that turn close losses into close wins.

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169 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Deelron // Nov 27, 2018 - 5:00pm

They also could have easily lost to Chicago and SF (!) and be sitting at 2-8-1 with very little change in anything, can't just look at it one way.

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67 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:08pm

During the broadcast, Romo not-so-subtley suggested that Roethlisberger was running to the locker room because he had to take a shit.

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68 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:14pm

Bortles doesn't bother leaving the field.

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93 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by justanothersteve // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:22pm

Now he won't have to. PFT is reporting Bortles is being benched for Cody Kessler. I honestly have no words for that.

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76 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by justanothersteve // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:27pm

I listened to Tom Silverstein of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel's podcast on my morning walk. He commented on several of the things mentioned above.

1) Rhodes was having trouble covering Adams early in the game. Zimmer switched to a Cover 2 look after that and pretty much shut down the passing game. Silverstein didn't go into it, but the Cover 2 has been very effective against the Packers West Coast offense going back to Favre. To beat it, you need a good seam TE which was supposed to be Graham. They haven't had a really good TE since Finley.
2) Fackrell pretty much disappeared this game. It's probably not a coincidence that Mike Daniels didn't play. Daniels and Clark have been DL demons all season. They and Alexander are probably the three best defensive players for the Packers right now and everyone else are somewhere around replacement level. Not necessarily bad, but not better than kind of good. The Packers defense still played well enough to win if the offense (and special teams) do their job. The consensus is that Pettine is doing the best job he can given the talent level on defense. He's been doing it with smoke-and-mirrors all season. This works against an inexperienced QB like Goff and Allen or a bad QB like Osweiler. It won't against a vet like Brady or Cousins, even when the OL is as patched as Dolly Parton's old coat. Every time the Packers ran a slot blitz, Cousins just tossed to the open receiver.
3) McCarthy tried one Reid/Nagy/McVay-like play early in the scripted part of the game. It was moderately successful. It was the first time in quite some time I've seen McCarthy try anything innovative in a long time. That he didn't try to build on that play showed me that McCarthy is more interested stubbornly sticking to his ways rather than anything.
4) Packers special teams continue to make stupid mistakes including the penalty on the onside kick which would have negated a successful kick had the Packers recovered it. Davis may be injured again after he mysteriously signalled for a fair catch late in the first half with nobody within 10 yards. He didn't make an appearance in the second half. He would have been the one returning kicks rather than Tramon Williams.

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82 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Joe Pancake // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:44pm

Gase needs to catch more grief for his decision to run the ball on 3rd-and-10 from his own 6 with 3:34. What was he thinking? "If we can just pin the Colts back to their own 42 instead of their own 46, I like our chances!"

Getting a first down is virtually your only hope in that situation. Heck, even a turnover in that case might be better because at least then the Colts probably wouldn't be able to run the clock down to 0:00 upon scoring.

If you aren't willing to seriously try for the first down in that situation, you might as well just forfeit and walk off the field.

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85 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by justanothersteve // Nov 26, 2018 - 4:54pm

Aaron Schatz: Xavier Rhodes has mostly erased Davante Adams tonight. Yes, he has a touchdown, but only 24 yards as of the beginning of the fourth quarter.

Adams also had a monster pass interference call in the first quarter which led to the Packers first TD. He was actually pretty effective until Zimmer gave Rhodes over-the-top safety help later in the second quarter.

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94 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Joe Pancake // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:24pm

With teams seemingly getting smarter about going for it on 4th down, I wonder if let-the-other-team-score is going to become more prevalent. Carolina, for example would've probably been better off if Lockett had scored on the long completion at the end of the game.

I wonder if it's worth training defensive players in that position to let guys score if they get within the 15-yard line. Occasionally you see this (and you will see offensive players intentionally not score), but it's not a widespread tactic.

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95 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Nov 26, 2018 - 5:28pm

Wait, there's seriously a person named Corn Elder? And he plays in the NFL? How have I never heard of Corn before?

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105 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:03pm

Full name Cornelius.

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113 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by ChrisS // Nov 26, 2018 - 6:32pm

He sound like the leader of the evil clan in some crappy horror movie.

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126 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by JoeyHarringtonsPiano // Nov 26, 2018 - 8:52pm

Or an immortal Sumerian farmer.

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127 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by BJR // Nov 26, 2018 - 9:04pm

I feel sorry for Phillip Rivers (a little). Having possibly the best season of his great career going almost completely unnoticed because absolutely nobody cares about his team. And being up against a juggernaut division rival, so the best he can hope for is a wildcard win followed by divisional round defeat somewhere, probably Foxboro.

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129 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by theslothook // Nov 26, 2018 - 11:03pm

Of all the great work you, Rivers has to be up there in terms of the least help around him. The chargers feel perpetually plagued by incompetent coaching, incompetent special teams, terrible injury luck, usually terrible offensive lines and one of the worst hfa's ever.

Rivers has had talent at the skill position so it's not always been bare bones. But man, has he had it rough. At least the weather in San Diego was nice while he was there.

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134 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 26, 2018 - 11:42pm

Dean Spanos has been among the worst owners, perhaps the absolute worst.

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137 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by LionInAZ // Nov 27, 2018 - 12:26am

Hard to imagine worse than the crook Jimmy Haslam, but Spanos is close. Man, how they hate him in San Diego county.

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156 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 27, 2018 - 10:13am

Haslam isn't even the worst owner in Cleveland history.

They have to protect Art Modell's grave from Browns fans.

Also on the list: The Bidwells, the Fords, and the Strunk-Adamses.

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159 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by MilkmanDanimal // Nov 27, 2018 - 11:15am

Mike Brown deserves himself a spot, and Dan Snyder needs to be in the conversation. Historically, Hugh Culverhouse and late era Zombie Al Davis were "special".

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160 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 27, 2018 - 11:48am

Once Red McCombs determined that he wasn't going to get a billion dollar stadium for free, and he couldn't break the Metrodome lease for another decade, he was about as bad an owner as can be imagined. When you hire the head coach because he's the cheapest guy available who won't be laughed at during the 1st press conference (that came later for Tice), and you won't let him hire a full staff, you won't replace the worn out carpet and air conditioning at your team facilities, and have a weight lifting room that is shamed by Planet Fitness, that's really, really, bad. Then you order Randy Moss traded, and order that Troy Williamson be drafted at number 7 to replace him.

I suppose Red could have tried to frame Cris Carter for murder, to void the final couple years of his contract, but he otherwise did about as much damage as he was capable of.

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138 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Sixknots // Nov 27, 2018 - 12:38am

Yes, but the AFCW has had at least one other owner in that conversation.

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157 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Nov 27, 2018 - 10:14am

You could make an argument that Oakland has had the least shitty ownership in that division.

How sad is that?

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158 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by Will Allen // Nov 27, 2018 - 10:55am

On what basis is Bowlen or Hunt ownership judged to be bad?

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165 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by xydux // Nov 27, 2018 - 1:57pm

That was pre-Bowlen (I believe Bowlen bought the team in 1984). And the Hunts have generally seemed like they want a successful team, even if they haven't been able to get over the hump (or even to a conference championship game, I believe) since the merger.

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139 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by tuluse // Nov 27, 2018 - 1:38am

I assume all the ridiculous mishaps (didn't they have a game with multiple blocked punts?) are a curse for firing Schottenheimer after a 14-2 season.

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143 Re: Audibles at the Line: Week 12

by PatsFan // Nov 27, 2018 - 8:48am

After a game where it wasn’t his fault they lost! (Even worse, IIRC there is film from that week showing him coaching DBs to just knock the ball down on 4th down!)

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