Week 17 Open Discussion

Dallas Cowboys WR CeeDee Lamb
Dallas Cowboys WR CeeDee Lamb
Photo: USA Today Sports Images

NFL Week 17 - With no Thursday game, no Saturday game, and the last Monday night game of the year, the focus this week is on Sunday's action. 

Big Sunday games include the L.A. Rams (11-4) at Baltimore (8-7), Miami (8-7) at Tennessee (10-5), Las Vegas (8-7) at Indianapolis (9-6), Kansas City (11-4) at Cincinnati (9-6), Arizona (10-5) at Dallas (11-4), and the night game of Minnesota (7-8) at Green Bay (12-3). The Monday night game sees Cleveland (7-8) at Pittsburgh (7-7-1). Use this thread to discuss them all.


111 comments, Last at 05 Jan 2022, 10:51pm

1 McVay

Are u kidding going for a 56 yard FG?

7 While I generally agree with…

In reply to by ImNewAroundThe…

While I generally agree with you on this,  Wilson almost threw a pick the play before.  I understand what the Jets were doing there, even if I don't agree with it.

6 Carson Wentz has played most…

Carson Wentz has played most of the first half like he’s been out all week with COVID. Went 0-4 in the 1st quarter. Did nothing for most of the 2nd quarter until a 2 minute drive (that started on the 40 after a kick out of bounds). 

Colts had it 3rd and Goal on the 1 yard line, 5 seconds left in the half, no time outs left. Reich gambled and ran it with Taylor and got the TD to bring the score to 13-10 Raiders at half. 

8 To New's usual point about…

To New's usual point about running a play instead of kneeling, look at what KC did just now.  3 and 3, they run the ball, and someone gets hurt.  Of course, since we're talking about one of the real jinxed teams, it's a Bengal that's hurt.

31 Welp

Only 3 points allowed in the 2nd half. Cincy is celebrating for other reasons now. 

9 Freak TD in the Colts game…

Freak TD in the Colts game. Wentz was scrambling for his life and TY Hilton was uncovered down field. Wentz saw it late though, and that let two Raiders close and go for the pick. Ashton Dulin, another WR for the Colts jumped up and tipped the ball out of the Raiders defenders hands and it went straight to Hilton standing in the end zone. 

Basically a completed Hail Mary on the first drive of the second half. 

14 Great pick

Should've gotten greedy and picked Terrace Marshall Jr in the 2nd. Oh boy they'd be nothing but open

16 Wentz misses high to an…

Wentz misses high to an uncovered TY Hilton. Should have been an 75 yard TD to start the 4th quarter. 

17 Mike Glennon!

I wonder if anyone else remembers the following hilarious commentary on a Sirius XM fantasy radio channel show last year.  It was in the week after the Jets had lost their 9th game to start the season, or around then.  Meanwhile, the Jaguars had won only their first game.  That team faced a decision on who to play at quarterback, as Minshew was returning from injury.  One of the commentators said, with no irony:  “The way the Jets are playing, the Jaguars can’t afford to win even one more game.  They have to play Glennon!”

That about sums it up.

23 All time worst performance in my fantasy league

In reply to by Stendhal1

Even with a generous 1 point for every 20 passing yards, scored by the yard (.05 per yard), and 1.3 rushing yards, Glennon scored -5.5 in our league.  That’s the worst I recall in our 13 year history (previous was -4 for Greg Olsen’s 2 fumble day for the Bears).

19 Raiders go on it for 4th…

Raiders go on it for 4th down in the Red Zone and get the TD to go up 3. Colts tie it up at the two minute warning, but Raiders are moving to get a game winning FG

22 Some close finishes.. Eagles…

Some close finishes..

Eagles get an end zone pick to win 20-16.

Rams eke out a 20-19 comeback over Ravens

Bucs score to take a 28-24 lead late over jets.

24 Like Cincys aggressiveness

But no QB sneak?????

Oh my offsetting penalties. 

Again from shotgun????????

Did Burrow attempt one already and fail because these calls...a flag!

Wow saved from bad play calls

26 Though it was a meaningless…

Though it was a meaningless game, does anyone have the context for why the Giants threw the ball only 11 times and ran it 40 despite being down all game to the Bears? Based on the box score they might have one of the worst offensive DVOA scores in recent history.

36 Officially

Pour one out for the WFT (& NYG) bettors. IDK what yall saw in them.

37 Let them score?

I hope that the Game Winning Chance data are presented somewhere for the scenario in which the Chiefs let the Bengals score the touchdown when they got down to the one.  I'm not bothering to look up the exact sequence, but perhaps even before the 2 minute warning, and certainly once the Bengals got the first down on the 1 yard line, I was thinking that the Chiefs were better off letting them score, saving their timeouts, and figuring that Mahomes could work enough magic to get to overtime.  But I'd like to see if the models back up that notion. 

38 Ah

Typical T Diggs. INT or getting burned

39 Falcons officially…

Falcons officially eliminated from playoffs, so no more talk about how they could be the first #32 in dvoa to make the playoffs.

41 What a heck of a way to lose…

What a heck of a way to lose, too.

Improbably ahead by 1 after two Allen INTs late in H1, they start H2 by snagging Allen's first pass to set them up on BUF's 25.  Then they go backwards on three straight plays and decide to punt instead of trying a 49-yard field goal.  The  punt, of course, goes for a touch back and BUF then drives the field to take the lead.

Even after falling behind by 14 mid-way through Q4, though, there's still time for a come back!  Ryan runs it into the end zone to make it a one score game, then ... taunts BUF's DB Pryor ?!?  TD taken off the board, subsequent plays fail, and ATL fades into the sunset. 

40 Worst #1 seed ever?

Entering this week's game, the Titans were ranked 20th in DVOA. Now with today's win and the Chiefs' loss, they're sitting pretty with the #1 seed and play the Texans next week. Could Titans end up being the worst #1 seed in DVOA history? 

43 Analytics

The way Aikman talks about analytics, he seems to think it is synonymous with voodoo.

56 Also today: Aqib Talib…

In reply to by Raiderfan

Also today: Aqib Talib blamed the Malcolm Butler Super Bowl interception on "analytics", which apparently now also explicitly contains "audibling to a pass when you count too many defenders in the box"...

44 Man Darnold

a 2nd and two non 7ths for him and a fully guaranteed raise for next season.

Absolutely brutal trade. 

48 I didn't mind the trade at…

In reply to by ImNewAroundThe…

I didn't mind the trade at the time. It wasn't an outrageous price for a highly drafted QB still on his rookie contract, who had been saddled with what everybody agreed was a bad situation. 

But subsequently ignoring QB in the draft and picking up his 5th year option before the season began look like terrible decisions, whatever way you slice it. 

52 I never liked it tbh.

Even if he hits you gotta immediately pay him.

If you're going to trade for a known quantity that's been bad for years, it has to be for non early (1st and 2nd) picks. And even then it can go wrong (Teddy, Foles, Flacco, Minshew etc.) with limited upside (Tannehill).

They're going to give up ~pick #38 (premium in my eyes) along with the others. That's a tough pill to swallow but that comes with the territory of trading so much, teams just aren't going to do that AND draft one (in the 1st)/not pick up his option to hurt his feelings. That'd be supporting neither. Not trading back was just another blunder if they weren't that in love with the class. 

Gonna be Rhules ultimate undoing with the way he's handled the QB room:

  • Cut Cam to sign Teddy to a huge contract.
  • Trade Teddy for a measly 6th.
  • Trade that + more for a guy that'd wasn't even average at anything, in lieu of drafting one in a stacked class at #8 (big signal you're bad). 
  • Bring back Cam, at an outrageous price for half a year. 
  • Play musical chairs with the position. 

Horrible mismanagement. IDK what his pitch was to get an above average contract length from Tepper.

63 Rivera did win playoff games…

Rivera did win playoff games in Carolina, though.... hard to do that with the cesspool, excuse me, great culture that is the Washington Football Team.   Not sure why Rivera didn't wait for another job with a less problematic team, like, any of them.  The owner in Carolina got fired too.

I wonder who's idea it was to trade for Darnold, Rhule's or Fitterer's.  Hiring a GM after you've hired a coach doesn't work out most of the time.  Maybe Buffalo is the only place where it did, and both Beane and McDermott came from Carolina.  Fitterer does not have that history with Rhule.  It's looking more and more the Jets dodged a bullet with Rhule, even while coming out looking like grade A morons.

64 Funny actually

Might be suffering the same thing of not getting the QB position right, just worse division. 

Forgot they hired Rhule first. Both franchises stay bad. 

71 Well, they tried to hired…

In reply to by ImNewAroundThe…

Well, they tried to hired Rhule first.  The problem was is that they already told Gregg Williams he was defensive coordinator, and Rhule didn't like that.  The problem with having owners make decisions about teams is they know nothing about football and how to actually run a team, unless they're Al Davis before 2002.

100 Rivera took the Panthers to…

Rivera took the Panthers to the Super Bowl. He has taken that train wreck of an organization in Washington to a division title, and has his team playing hard and competitively despite losing their starting quarterback in the first game, and one of the worst injury and covid manifestations in the league, despite playing the third hardest schedule in the league. He is a fantastic coach. 
Rhule has taken a good team and turned them into a disaster, to absolutely no ones surprise, except Tepper, apparently.

101 A less succesful Mike Mccarthy

Rhule took a 5-11 team to two straight 5-11 seasons lol

Why we even talking about a coach that hasn't even been .500 since 2017? Lol. Let's stick to Rhule not making any progress because he keeps messing up the QB position.

102 Because firing him was…

Because firing him was stupid. Tepper is a pompous idiot who thinks he is smarter than everyone in Football because he made a bunch of money in a rigged stock market. I've been a Panthers fan since they started, but I can't stomach what Tepper has done to the team. It was bad enough having to put up with Richardson, but at least that scumbag didn't sabotage the team. I am overjoyed that Richardson is gone, but Tepper is barely better than Khan, which is a far cry from tolerable.
Rivera is a great coach, universally respected around the league and loved by his players. There are probably not more than five or so teams that wouldn't be happy to trade their coach for him right now. 
Who, exactly, would take Rhule? 

103 Eh whatever

Probably wouldn't be doing much different anyway (both didn't want anything to do with Newton or a rookie QB, just mild upgrades).

Not the end all be all but only 25th here. Carroll and Tomlin below are also probably in the "universally respected around the league and loved by his players" category too. Except they won Super Bowls so bump them up over Rivera/replace two suspect ones above Rivera. Either way. Doubt he's cracking in the Lafleur, Harbaugh, McVay, Shanahan, Reid, Bill, Payton etc tier.


57 No

Dak - Inconsistent, easily frightened into throwing inaccurate balls

Zeke - Hobbled

Pollard - Can't hammer out yards

Schultz - Can't block period

Cooper - Disappears most games

Gallup - One trick pony on sideline passes

Lamb - Drops balls often

Wilson - Gadget/gimmick player

60 LOL

In reply to by Romodini

Must be a foosball fan or something

65 No, just a masochistic…

In reply to by ImNewAroundThe…

No, just a masochistic Cowboys fan who sees the team's players for what they are

97 If I am a Bengals fan right now I am pretty happy with my group

Burrow is leading the league in yards per attempt as well as completion percentage in spite of being sacked the MOST of anyone!

Chase is OROY

Higgins can also be a monster and has 1000 yards.

Boyd, their #3 guy has an outside shot to be a 1000 yard receiver

Mixon is as good a back as almost anyone else not named Taylor (in spite of getting the fewest yards before contact among any of the rushing leaders, thanks to a crappy OL)

Uzomah is the weak link among the starters. If they were to sign a competent FA or draft a TE, wow.


46 Kingsbury Genius

The Prater/Murray "double" cost the Cowboys a TO they needed at end.. Well, there may very well be a rematch in the Wild Card round. same Venue, Same Bat Channel

47 Bronco’s special teams not…

Bronco’s special teams not letting Packers get the wooden spoon without a fight it seems. Muffed punt and KO return TD allowed to the Chargers is impressively awful.

49 Antonio Brown

Hall of fame talent

Hall of fame idiocy

I'm having a hard time thinking of someone that managed to shoot his way out of town from more teams in any major professional sport.

50 disturbed

In reply to by TheIdealGrassLaw

As a Steelers fan, I'm supposed to regard Antonio Brown with scorn and derision.  But, even when he was burning bridges with the Steelers (and then dynamiting the smoldering wreckage), I felt that he was someone with difficulties that went far beyond willfulness, arrogance, ego, etc.  I'm certainly no professional, but his behavior seemed to me that of someone who "really needed help" (to euphemistically put it.)  And I'm not one to fall back on the "he's not a jerk, he's sick" excuse, but so much of what Brown did then and has done since suggests something more deep-seated than just being an @$$. 

Damn shame, when he was playing at his peak, I thought he was in the running for one of the top half dozen players in football. 

51 NFC Matchups

Unless something wacky happens tonight, looks like



TB/LA  #3 v SF /PHILA 6  (Rams could lay down suppose-- but then they get Cardinals instead-- pick your poison-- they could knock out Niners entirely and win division with a win next week)

DALL #4 v ARIZ 5 (They meet again)

The fact that Brady might get his nemesis again, and that the other two games could be rematches from a week or two earlier adds some spice.  Assuming TB wins and that the Niners do not, it would be simple 


LAR at TB or vice versa

If the Niners pull off the upset, then they go to GB with that running game and DALL/ARIZ winner plays Brady in Florida

Of course if Philly beats Dallas, and Saints win and Niners lose, SF is OUT  In fact i think they are out no matter what philly does v Dallas if they lose to Rams and Saints win

96 I really hope the Niners are…

In reply to by oaktoon

I really hope the Niners are able to pull off the upset against the Rams because I have no faith in the Falcons to beat the Saints again and the Niners are much more deserving of a playoff spot than the Saints imo

69 If you change it to TC Boyle…

In reply to by ImNewAroundThe…

If you change it to TC Boyle it's a deal.  Although I prefer to see that novelist with the helmet off, so you can see his distinctive haircut.

58 NE The Awful QB Stompers

I wonder how much of NE's Total DVOA is made up from their destruction of all the awful QBs they have decimated this year. There is little doubt that NE is among the Best in the World vs young, bad QBs. We'll see how well it holds up real QBs in the playoffs, although their last game against an actual good QB (Allen) was not pretty.

67 They kind of stomped Mike…

They kind of stomped Mike White when he came in for Wilson.  Granted, he hadn't started a game yet, but then torched Cincy the next week.  The other question is how many good QBs are there in the AFC.  I'll give you Burrow, Allen and Mahommes.  Probably Herbert, but he's been terrible against New England.  Wentz, Jackson (or Huntley), Rothlisberger and Tannehill shouldn't scare them at all. Carr could give them problems.  The real issue for New England is whether Jones wilts in the playoffs.  I think that's most likely to happen.

72 LOL

In reply to by ImNewAroundThe…

Being down 20-3 is better than being down 20-0 

73 Correct

In reply to by justanothersteve

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk

74 2011

Packers had best record in league-- wrapped up #1 Seed and bye-- Rodgers sat final game v Lions-- who they play next week as well...  they came out flat against Giants at Lambeau and lost.   Toe might make a difference this time though

78 Champion* Giants

In reply to by oaktoon

We win that game 9/10. Don't let small sample size boogeyman get ya. We've lost plenty of playoff games without rest. 

81 Given the toe

In reply to by ImNewAroundThe…

He probably sits... Interesting or perhaps ironic that Jordan Love may start Rodgers' final regular season game as a Packer

88 Deal

I too will take a 35th-40th overall pick but do you mind throwing in another 7th rounder actually?

76 I am not saying GB is best team in league

or that LaFleur is best coach...

But 39-9 over first three years, Rodgers or no Rodgers, is an extraordinary accomplishment. Yep- he needs to at least get to a SB to validate it-- but did anyone see this coming?  of course not...

83 No one saw George Seifert, either

The truth is that Green Bay just hasn’t been as good as that record for the last three years. The Rams are struggling, the Bucs are literally having receivers walk off the field midgame, the Cowboys just lost Galloway, and the wild cards aren’t scary, so if the Packers can’t make the Super Bowl this year with HFA yet again, someone needs to answer some questions in Cheesetown. And I’d start with the guy who decided to kick that ridiculous field goal last year against Tom Brady. 

90 I'm too happy to get angry or snarky

But the Seifert comparison is ridiculous. That was a SB champion, for crying out loud. Where Seifert had been an assistant for nearly the entire Montana/Walsh era and knew the team and organization in every way. GB played sub 500 McCarthy's final two years. he had Steve Young waiting in the wings, not Jordan Love.  And re: "GB's not that good"-- well somehow LaFleur suffers either way. truth is, maybe he ought to get some credit for a team that has overperformed in terms of W/L three years in a row. I DID NOT SAY HE IS THE BEST COACH-- it will take a SB win to even get him in that conversation.  But hundreds and hundreds of men came before him-- and NONE OF THEM-- repeat NONE OF THEM (At least in the last 70 years)  ever had this good of a start in their career...

91 packers Injuries

Their best OL hasnt played a down. Three other OL starters are out now, the best (Jenkins) for the rest of the season. Their best pass rusher has';t played since September. Their best pass defender hasn't either. They played their toughest NFC road opponent without all those players-- and without their three best pass catchers and 3 other starters-- and won. They played their toughest AFC road opponent without Rodgers.  Everyone has injuries, my friend.

89 Truly great record. And last…

Truly great record. And last year they were a great team. The 2019 and 2021 teams have been less than that, and as a fan I hope the 2021 team gets some people back and remembers that defense is important come the postseason. If that happens, they could be like many of the other major DVOA surprise champs where the playoff team is literally different and superior to the regular season team. I hope it happens. I realize that’s the guess of a fan and not a reasoned projection. 

92 My only disagreement

is that this year is definitely superior team to 2019-- in large part because Rodgers and the offense (thanks to Dillon and a better corps of receivers) is definitely better. That team was not only blown out by SF but also the Chargers, and they lost a home game. This team had one bad game-- opening day--  lost another because of no Rodgers and the other by a whisker in Minnesota. 

95 I hope so! Subjectively, I…

I hope so! Subjectively, I agree. The offense is looking great. The defense has been bad since week 11 - really bad. They looked better today, but against a backup QB. I’m not sure whether to read anything into that, but I suspect I shouldn’t. 

My only postseason prediction is that at least 1 team will surprisingly advance after the opposing team loses critical players to COVID. And playing 1 fewer game has never been more important. 

80 I'm reading some upset ravens fans tweets

(because GB whooping)

They are upset with Harbaugh....the guy that covered against a playoff bound team with a UDFA backup QB...again

I...I just can't as an outsider looking in. Those people are insane.

109 Yes they are insane

I can go to all Ravens games and listen to people talk that are sitting around me.  The best fans are not as intelligent as the worst fans on this site.  
I am on this site to have fun talking football with intelligent fans, that is part of what makes FO great.

Harbaugh is a hall of fame coach period.  Sign me up for 10-20 more years of this.  While others compile the same great record as Harbaugh with Hall of Fame QB’s, Harbaugh may never see the day where the QB who played the most games with him is Joe Flacco

Harbaugh sucks in some Ravens fans opinion for being 8-8 with an undrafted QB in his second year with rookie experience playing 3 3/4 games, and the QB that everyone wants Josh Johnson playing one game

To me this season shows the greatness of Harbaugh and the organization as a whole.  This is the only team in the NFL that wins consistently for over a decade without a Hall of Fame candidate QB.  Maybe Jackson becomes that guy. 

110 Exactly

Sums it up well. Flabbergasted at some people being upset at him not winning a few games with Tyler Huntley...Phew. Missing the forest for the trees if I ever saw it. 

85 What was the ML on Bengals-Chiefs?

And how did it compare to Vrabel’s odds of winning CotY before today’s games? Because I’m thinking the sneakier play (and the bigger payout) might have come from betting on that rock head, who somehow has that team ready to sit home for a week despite losing so many skill players at various points throughout the season. 


Went so long without either team wasting a timeout! 

And...it wasn't even a TD! Boooo!

93 Mike Zimmer post-mortem

I am ready for the Mike Zimmer era to end. I was ready for it to end even before the Vikings looked helpless on both sides of the ball tonight. He was a very good coach for a time, lifting up the early 2010's Vikings and keeping them off of FO's all-time anti-dynasty list. But now I feel like he's holding the team back, and I'm not mad at him for it. He just seems burned out, and that the time has come for a "mutually agreed to part ways" sort of separation.

That said, I'm not sure how much a coach being burned out, assuming that is the case, affects player development. In my view, the cause of the Vikings slow decline since 2017 has been weak player development; they are a "stars and scrubs" team by design whose "scrubs" e.g. Garrett Bradbury, Mackensie Alexander, DJ Wonnum, etc. play too much like scrubs and weigh down the stars. It would also help if their defensive line would not disintegrate by injuries for once.

106 The Manning cast makes MNF…

The Manning cast makes MNF watchable. But when Goodell came on I had to switch to the regular ESPN broadcast and my brain still hurts from the inanity of the commentary

107 The Harris TD decided my fantasy league championship

The dominant team in the regular season was 3.5 points behind its adversary, who played Chase, with an estimated 1% chance of winning.  Harris’ TD gave the team 10.7 points (1 point bonus for >20 yd run) and decided the championship.

108 Ben wins his last home game…

Ben wins his last home game in Ben Roethlisberger fashion.

It's not pretty, but he wins with a big handoff, the Defense puts him back on the field and Mike Tomlin messes up his time outs at the end of the game.


Thank you, Ben. It's been wonderful to have seen you play in black and gold all those years.