Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

Week 5 Open Discussion Thread

Sun, Oct 05 Time (ET) Network
KC @ CAR 1:00 PM CBS
ATL @ GB 1:00 PM FOX
SD @ MIA 1:00 PM CBS
TB @ DEN 4:05 PM FOX
NE @ SF 4:15 PM CBS
Mon, Oct 06 Time (ET) Network


by Anonymous (not verified) :: Fri, 10/03/2008 - 2:40pm

Someone smarter than me can demonstrate this from Dr. Z and analyze I'm sure:

Mike, a Ravens fan from Fredericksburg, Va., has some ranking problems, but I'll deal with a question I'm always asking myself. Why, at the end of a game, do coaches abandon an aggressive defense that seems to be working, and pull in their horns and go conservative? It's not exactly what you describe as a "prevent defense," but the philosophy is the same. When I ask that question, which I always do, the answer is, "We've studied the percentages. You haven't. It doesn't look good, but the percentages really are in your favor." Well, I don't buy it. I'd like to see those figures. It just seems to be a natural inclination to get conservative in crunch time.

by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 12:23pm

What always gets me is not that they get conservative in general, but when you have a defense like Baltimore's or Tennessee's that is crushing the opponent throughout the game, and THAT defense suddenly goes conservative. The average-or-worse defense probably actually shows some improvement by switching to "prevent" mode to offset the particular situation the offense is in, but I can't understand why coaches abandon a scheme that is working overwhelmingly well.

by CoachDave :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 12:36pm

Good afternoon,

Does anyone have a good link to watching NFL games online other than www.myp2p.eu ?

B/c of the (bleeping) Lions, we don't get the Colts game and myp2p has only one link via sopcast and it looks shaky at best.

Thanks in advance for your help...enjoy football Sunday.

by Insancipitory :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:10pm

Nice low and late hit by Tuck, glad to see the refs doing their job not calling that. He probably won't even be fined.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:12pm

Westbrook looks healthy. 7-0 Eagles.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:16pm

As I say that, the cameras show Westbrook with his pads off on the sidelines. If you listen closely you can hear Eagles fans crying.

by Just Another Falcon Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:13pm

Falcons jump on top of Green Bay as Packer DBs keep falling down.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:22pm

14-0 Eagles after a DeSean Jackson punt return. Probably should have been called back but the officials inexplicably picked up the flag. Looked like a clear block in the back.

by Bowl Game Anomaly :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:24pm

What did the ref say? I didn't catch it.

(Formerly "The McNabb Bowl Game Anomaly")

by Crus :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:26pm

Ref said it wasn't a foul because it was called on #50 of the kicking team, and the replay showed #50 of the Eagles blocking #50 of the Redskins in the back, not very hard imho but it makes no difference how hard it was, should've been called back.

by Telamon :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:26pm

He said that it was a Skins player blocked the Eagles player. The replay showed that this was extremely false.

My butthole hurts. Thanks ref!

by BillWallace (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:26pm

I think the ref said "we need all 4 NFC east teams to remain competitive"

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:39pm

Eli is just plain smoking today.

And Hixon looks like a breakout player. Holy crap.

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:42pm

Eli is now 7-7 for 145 with a touch.

by Toxikfetus (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:43pm

Why does Andy Reid keep sending out David Akers for 50 yard FG attempts? He hasn't been accurate past 40 for the past two years.

by Spoilt Victoria... :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:43pm

How many >45-yard attempts does Akers have to miss before Reid stops having him kick them?

by BillWallace :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:45pm

Well the Redskins just didn't come to play today so it doesn't really matter.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:47pm

Casey Rabach is continuing to be the mole for the Skins offense. They end up with a FG after Suisham banks it off the upright. 14-3.

by Zac :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:48pm

Watching the Packers game. Boselli and Pitts are horrible announcers. They've gotten names wrong 3 or 4 times already.

by DEW (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:48pm

Argh! Who cursed the Colts receivers this year with all the iron thumbs? Every time I see them, they're dropping more potentially game-changing passes than Braylon Edwards!

by Crus :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:49pm

It looks like the only way Akers will get his 40+ game going again will be to kick against the Eagles.

by Spoilt Victoria... :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:52pm

That's a brilliant idea, Crus.

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:53pm

For years, my Giants were a team that could be counted on to screw things up. Used to drive me crazy because I could see that they had the talent to be very good, but were instead just middling-better-than-average.

Until, I would say, about halftime of the game against the Bills last year in week 16. From that point on, they have been very, very good, with only the mediocre but winning effort against Cincy last week being a bit of a klunker.

They don't even look like the same team any more. They look really good, and I am having a hard time believing it.

With that, Smith pulls in a first down catch after losing his shoe.

by James-London :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:58pm

Stuck at work so no football for me tonight beyond the box scores. How is Manning Jnr 9/10 for 170, and how are Miami looking against SD?

Phil Simms is a Cretin.

by Purds :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:01pm

I'm flipping back and forth between the Manning games. Junior looks good--stepping up into the pocket, throwing the ball well.

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:05pm

How? He's been accurate. The receivers are all open, but especially Hixon who has been wide open constantly. Jacobs is having success running. Basically, the entire offense is performing at an extremely high level.

I am giddily dumbfounded at how good they look right now.

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:00pm

Ward takes a screen that should have gone nowhere, breaks a tackle and dives for the first. Nice.

ETA-- Next play, Eli changes it up at the line, goes to Hixon again to the one, then another Jacobs TD. 23-3 awaiting the PAT.

by Purds :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:59pm

Colts have gone for it twice on 4th and 1. Made it both times. Nice.

Harrison just caught a nice pass -- well, it was into traffic and he was hammered.

But, just as I type this -- the Colts offensive line commits a penalty. They stink.

by joe football (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 1:59pm

Be sure to join a star-studded cast of your favorite FO posters for IRC football chat! cognet.catch22.org, channel #fo

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:03pm

Wish I could. They have the IRC ports blocked on my work computer. :-(

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:12pm

Hixon goes over 100 yards, but gets a helmet to helmet hit for his troubles. Might be a slight concussion by the looks of it.

by Toxikfetus (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:14pm

DVOA needs another kicking adjustment:
1. Indoor
2. Outdoor
3. Denver
4. vs. PHI

by Pat F. :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:17pm

Sage Rosenfels 11/13 for 144 yards and a TD in the 1st half, Texans over Colts 16-10 pending the extra point. They have, frankly, looked unstoppable in the 2nd quarter. o_O

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:20pm

Manning drives the G-men to the 11 or so, but comes up a yard short on 3rd so they take the figgie. 27-3, 40 seconds to half.

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:21pm

Uhhh. Just checked the scoreboard. WTH is up with Atlanta?

by DaveInTucson :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:24pm

Packers defense can't get a stop. This isn't helped by the fact that the Packer's punter (Frost) is terrible and has been giving the Falcons offense short(er) fields.

I have a blog where I post objective power rankings of NFL teams.

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:27pm

I like your blog, but you have the Giants too low. :-)

by DaveInTucson :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:37pm

The Giants have been hurt by a close win to the winless Bengals. A big win over the Seahawks should push them up a little bit, anyway.

I have a blog where I post objective power rankings of NFL teams.

by tornadot :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:23pm

SD is having quite a few issues with the Wildcat formation.

by Pat F. :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:25pm

And Peyton Manning is picked off by a LB who was playing perfect coverage on Dallas Clark. Wow...

In other news, wtf is happening in the Packers game? Guesstimating from the stats, GB is trying to run a lot due to Rodgers' injury and not being particularly successful, while Roddy White is immolating the non-Woodson CB in the GB secondary?

by Just Another Falcon Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:49pm

Rodgers is actually throwing OK, but the Packers keep making mistakes to push themselves back or move the Falcons up..

by DaveInTucson :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:54pm

Wow. Atlanta punt team pins the Packers at their own 1 yard line. Again.

I have a blog where I post objective power rankings of NFL teams.

by James-London :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:57pm

Did Miami just miss a FG or go for it on 4 & 3 and fail?

Ah... Missed Figgie. Damn.

Phil Simms is a Cretin.

by Crus :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:00pm

Eagles choke away a 14-0 lead with an offense that can't get a 1st down and a defense that can't stop Chris Cooley, who just caught a nice TD pass from Randel-El off an end-around option play.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:02pm

Nice of Andy Reid to throw away a timeout on a challenge he was never going to win.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:02pm

Nice of Andy Reid to throw away a timeout on a challenge he was never going to win.

by BillWallace :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:03pm

According to Aikman, if the skins' rookie receivers develop the Redskins are going to have quite an "arsenry".

Portis is awesome.

Reid with an utterly hopeless challenge, in the second half of a close game.

by James-London :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:04pm

Typical. Miami miss the FG and the Chargers go straight back the way for a TD. From the play-byplay, it's the first time they've moved the ball since the first quarter. I hope they hang on, but...
Phil Simms is a Cretin.

by Just Another Falcon Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:07pm

Falcons defense bending, but not breaking at midfield. The shot Rodgers must have gotten in his arm is trarting to wear off.

by DaveInTucson :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:16pm

Packers drive to Falcons' 32 yard line. Mason Crosby is good from 50 yards!

If the Packer's defense can get a stop, they might actually have a chance.

ETA: Crud. And other comments.
ETA, again: yes! Williams gets a pick!
I have a blog where I post objective power rankings of NFL teams.

by Pat F. :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:15pm

Mario Williams > Joseph Addai

by Pat F. :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:24pm

Also, Steve Slaton > Entire Colts Defense

by CathyW :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:22pm

Argh, the Eagles seem determined to self-destruct today. Ugh.

by DaveInTucson :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:31pm

And somehow the Packers have tied it up. But the defense still doesn't have a 3-and-out today. Now would be a good time to start.

ETA: and another short field leads to more points for the Falcons. Are they really that good, or is the Packers' defense really as bad as they've looked today?

I have a blog where I post objective power rankings of NFL teams.

by Telamon :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:28pm

Since the second drive, the Eagles' O looks pretty bad, but unless "Stats are for losers" Blache put a Stone Hands Hex on the Phillie receivers, it seems more like a case of the Eagles beating themselves then great D.

Still some encouraging developments for the 'skins, with Randel-El padding his status as Gadget QB extraordinaire, and finally getting some good punt returns. Portis continues to look good, and the D is playing well despite 3 missing starters.

Portis just went in untouched, after carrying a drive.

by CathyW :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:33pm

Hey, Eagles got a first down! Woo!

by Crus :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:34pm

The Eagles haven't had a 1st down since 11:16 to go in the 2nd quarter. McNabb is getting time to throw but if it's not tipped at the line the receivers drop it, often when alone in open space. The only thing keeping the Eagles in it for the last 2 quarters has been Sav Rocca's punting compared to the Redskins. Now the Redskins have worn down the Eagles D with their impressive running game.

As I type, the Eagles get a first down or two, finally.

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:39pm

I think the Giants are going to win.

by CathyW :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:41pm

GO FOR IT!!!!!

And as I typed that, they kicked a FG. So now they're only down by 6 points after choking away a 14-pt lead. Ay carumba.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:40pm

Can someone please give Andy Reid a course on red zone playcalling? I'm never taking an Eagle on a fantasy team again. It's torture.

by BillWallace :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:40pm

sigh, Redskins safety jumps over a WR on the ground who just caught a pass instead of touching him, and the WR gets up and runs for 30 yards. This isn't college football buddy.

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:41pm

Wow. Eagles needed half a yard on third, and they run a play that loses 4 yards.

Reid is really allergic to a McNabb sneak, isn't he?

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by Just Another Falcon Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:43pm

Boley picks Rodgers!

by Just Another Falcon Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:46pm

Turner pounds in 20 yards in 3 plays for the TD!

Game turned on:
1) Packer penalties and other mistakes
2) Field position
3) Great individual effort by John Abraham and Roddy White (in the first half for Roddy)

by DaveInTucson :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:46pm

Wow. Packers just aren't as good as they were last year, and it's not (just) because they don't have Favre anymore.

The Falcons have also played a good game today.

I have a blog where I post objective power rankings of NFL teams.

by CathyW :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:46pm

Eagles D, please get a stop here. Please.

by patriotsgirl (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:47pm

wow, Pennington can throw a moderate deep ball.

I don't normally like him, but Dierdorf completely called the ball security issue with Rosenfels. Oh, Texans.

Eta: again!!

by CathyW :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:52pm

@!@@$$%%$$%% Eagles!

by Just Another Falcon Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:52pm

OK, maybe the game isn't over yet. Rodgers has played very well; for a man with a sprained shoulder

by Dave Bernreuther :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:54pm

Reggie Wayne has superglue on his fingers.

And now less than 3 minutes after making it 27-10, the Texans face a 31-27 deficit.

by BillWallace :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:53pm

Skins got screwed, same play the other way, ARE catches a pass, isnt touched, gets up to run and the refs blow the whistle after he runs 60 yards. No challenge.

by Spoilt Victoria... :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:55pm

For the first time ever I think it's time for Reid to go.

I just can't take this anymore.

by Just Another Falcon Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:55pm

Worst onside kick I've ever seen by Mason Crosby.

by patriotsgirl (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 4:02pm

true, though he can't be the goat that Rosenfels is. I can't remember the last time I saw so many unforced errors by a team that was comfortably up with just minutes to go.

The first play was just inexcusable. Jumping into two defenders?

by James-London :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:56pm

Miami hung on. Wow.

Phil Simms is a Cretin.

by Dave Bernreuther :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:58pm

Sage Rosenfels turns into Kurt Warner and the Colts are going to steal another one.

by Just Another Falcon Fan (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:59pm

Turner pounds out what should be the final first down; : Falcons win!

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 4:01pm

Wow, check out the spammish football related ad-post. Not cool

by CoachDave :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 4:04pm

Colts > Texans

by Telamon :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 10:14pm

More like Colts > Rosenfels

by DaveInTucson :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 4:35pm

Bills @ Cardinals: Trent Edwards goes down on the first play from scrimmage. Not clear how bad he's hurt yet...

ETA: he walked off under his own power, but they just took him back to the locker room. He looks kinda googley-eyed to me. A concussion, maybe?

ETA more: Announcers confirm concussion.

I have a blog where I post objective power rankings of NFL teams.

by MrNosehair (not verified) :: Thu, 10/09/2008 - 1:17am

JP Losman single-handedly lost that game. The Offense & Defense gave up when Trent went down. They've seen what JP has to offer and they decided not to waste their best efforts! Best bet is to trade the LOSSman while they can still get a nickle for him!

by Patriotsgirl (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 4:24pm

At the risk of stating the obvious, Brady > Cassel. That was awful.

This game will be unwatchable, I need more wine.

by B :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 4:25pm

And, apparently, JT O'Sullivan = Cassel

by Patriotsgirl (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 4:31pm

But where does Chris Hansen fit in? I would say he < everything.

And O'Sullivan tries to prove you wrong, 7-0.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 4:32pm

No touches for TO yet. He could start crying soon.

by Flagstaff :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 4:34pm

The Chiefs have started 4 of their 5 games with a handoff to Larry Johnson. They almost never even try to pass on first down. Today's game was a travesty.

They have had their starting QB severely injured in the first game of the season in 2 of the last 3 years.

Is there a worse head coach on the NFL than Herm Edwards? Oh, yeah? Who?

Jacks RULE!

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 4:34pm

Just saw the highlight of Arizona scoring- how does Buffalo let Larry Fitz get that wide open? He's sorta good.

by Flagstaff :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 4:36pm

Fitzgerald's really good. that's how he gets that open.

Jacks RULE!

by Pat F. :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 4:50pm

the announcers just said (twice) that Champ Bailey's been thrown at only 11 times so far this year...

by B :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 5:06pm

And Cassel's picked off again. [Explicative deleted].
Oh well, at least they're trying to go deep this game.

by DivisionNick (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 5:07pm

Holy crap does Losman have a cannon arm. I know it's against Zona but that was a huge throw to Evans.

by B :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 5:14pm

Wait, why is Losman in there playing?

by asg (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 5:17pm

Edwards was hit very hard by Adrian Wilson (clean hit though) and badly concussed. He's done for the day and possibly next week too, if the coaches have any sense whatsoever.

by Pat F. :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 5:59pm

Could the ads for "The Express" possibly make it look any less interesting?

by Lance :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 6:19pm

Dallas is really tanked it in the second half. O and D.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 6:42pm

Cincy kicks a FG to pull to 17-16, and then recovers an onside kick. I guess the Cowboys are just trying to empty out the bandwagon a little bit more.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 6:44pm

Nevermind. Chris Henry fumbles. Here comes the clinching TD from Dallas.

by Tarrant :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 6:42pm

Wow. After a field goal, down one point, a few minutes into the fourth quarter, Cincinnati absolutely stuns Dallas with an onside kick, and easily recovers it.

by Tarrant :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 6:44pm

And Perry adds to his league-leading fumble count, and without the ball even being touched, drops the ball to the ground, Dallas recovers.

by DaveInTucson :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 7:07pm

Peter King just gave a scenario where the Titans would cut ties with Vince Young and go with Kerry Collins "for the long term". Collins is 35 right now -- how much of a long term does he have left?

I have a blog where I post objective power rankings of NFL teams.

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 7:09pm

I could see him lasting 3-4 more years at a decent enough level.

In the NFL, that can be considered, depending on the context, as long term.

by The Powers That Be :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 7:30pm

I'm trying to predict where the NFC East teams will be after this week. I figure, knowing how DVOA works, that the Eagles loss will probably drop them all the way to 1st place in the ratings. The Giants should easily lock up 2nd. The 'Skins ought to move into the top 5. I don't think Dallas' mediocre performance will manage to move them up, but the heavier weight on strength of schedule (PHI, WAS, GBP) should keep them from dropping much either.

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 7:38pm

I am pretty confident that the Giants will be first in DVOA after this week. Every Washington good performance helps the Giants' opponents adjustment. They have had a few stomps. Their one weak game will be helped by a solid performance by the Bengals today.

by Telamon :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 10:17pm

Unfortunately for the Giants, every other team they've played has been bad, so I think that cancels out the strength from the first game. Still, they've dominated most of the bad competition (and the Bengals hung with the Cowboys as well) so I still think they have a shot at #1 overall. But you can never count out the Eagles when DVOA is concerned!

by Dales :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:38pm

"every other team they've played has been bad"

Washington has been anything but bad.

by Harris :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 8:18pm

So, PhillyCWC, Pat, other assorted Eagles fans, how are you feeling? Suicide or homicide? I'm thinking of loading a Ford Festiva with explosives and heading toward NovaCare. Anybody wanna ride shotgun?

"A little celery is always nice after a good pee."

by CathyW :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 8:50pm

The only thing keeping me from either of those options is that the Phillies have somehow made it to the NLCS (and I'm not even a baseball fan!).

Between my pending divorce and the shitty performance by the Eagles, it's a miracle I haven't done exactly as you suggested.

Wait, I know! Let's tie my soon-to-be-ex husband into the Ford Festiva, load it up with explosives, and drive it toward NovaCare. Kill several birds with one stone!

Okay, obviously I am kidding, but I have to admit it's a tempting prospect.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 9:04pm

If there are reports of bodies being found in a burned-out Festiva, you might want to edit this message just to be on the safe side.

by Harris :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 9:21pm

Does he talk a lot? Because I don't mind blowing myself to smithereens, but I can't stand a man who doesn't know when to shut the hell up.

The Phillies were the best thing to happen to the Eagles today. Everybody will be focused on them winning instead of the Eagles pissing away a 14-point lead at home.

"A little celery is always nice after a good pee."

by CathyW :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 9:39pm

He talks at all the wrong times. Like when I'm trying to watch the season premiere of "My Boys" (I know, I know) and he decides to pick that exact moment to tell me he wants a divorce...true story. Wish I were kidding.

He also likes to wait until the Eagles game comes on to fix something or otherwise make some sort of adjustment to the TV.

At any rate, you are right about the Phillies taking the focus off how dreadful the Eagles looked today. How in the name of all that's holy do you piss away a 14 point lead AT HOME?!?!?!?! Ay carumba.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 9:43pm

I get the feeling I'm going to enjoy the Eagles fans comments in tomorrow's Audibles column.

by Harris :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 10:09pm

So you enjoy the screams of the damned and the tortured? Sadistic freak.

"A little celery is always nice after a good pee."

by CathyW :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 10:16pm

Harris, you can't blow yourself up. Think of your family, man. Besides, the Birds play the Niners next week, and historically they've done pretty well in San Fran. So all hope is not lost. Now, if they manage to lose to the Niners, then...it may be pitchforks and torches down Broad Street time.

by Harris :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 10:40pm

(sigh) You're right, I guess. It might be worth it because my daughter would know her father died a hero, but it can wait until next week. The 72 virgins will still be there.

"A little celery is always nice after a good pee."

by Jimmy :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 8:12am

Does anyone really want 72 virgins?

Personally I reckon you would be better off with a couple of real slags.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 8:30pm

BRoeth throwing awful INTs to Rashean Mathis that end up getting taken back for TDs. I've seen this before...

To hell with it, I'm getting drunk.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 8:45pm

Nice answer by the Steelers. Figures that Heath Miller scores when I bench him on my fantasy team.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 9:58pm

I'm mildly optimistic after that first half by the Steelers. We'll see if the Jags start throwing blitzes at the Steelers line like they should.

by CathyW :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 10:13pm

Ooooh, that was quite a sack of Garrard!

by CathyW :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 10:26pm

John Madden's man-love of David Garrard's calves was pretty creepy right there.

by skeptic :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 10:30pm

First and 10 Jags on the Pitt 37 and they pass (incomplete). I always wonder in this kind of situation if it wouldn't be better to run more than usual, so as to inch closer to a good chance at a field goal even if you don't get a first down.

Does anyone know if teams use an above-average number of runs between their 38 and their 30 or so? I think in a close game they should.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 10:56pm

That roughing call was absolute garbage. Complete, utter garbage.

by War Eagle (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 10:58pm

Ron Winter is desperately trying to hand this to the Jags.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:00pm

He's going to make me change my name to Doug Farrar and turn into a Seahawks fan.

by War Eagle (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:00pm

In the vein of the above, bullshit PI call on the 2nd TD, extends the drive on the 3rd TD with the PF, and that ridiculous roughing call.

by Dave Bernreuther :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:06pm

Pittsburgh is playing pretty undisciplined but Ron Winter seems to want to put himself on TV as much as possible tonight.

I was in a bar so I couldn't hear what was said, but in my view that PI that led to the 2nd Jags touchdown was completely ridiculous. Made contact after making a play for the ball, which was past them and incomplete, and they gave the offense (that was completely inept to that point) the ball on the 1 for free.

I'm no Pittsburgh fan (and in fact I rooted for the Jags in this exact matchup in January) but it drives me crazy that they dominated the first half and these Jags are somehow ahead now. This is one very lucky Jacksonville team. They're not far from 0-5, but here they have a chance at a winning record.

They have all the momentum now, and they're getting much better pressure on Ben. This could end badly.

Edit: And ANOTHER Personal Foul. Lucky for them, Mewelde Moore runs past where the first down would've been anyway.

by War Eagle (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:04pm

He strikes again! wtf

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:10pm

Washington earned that call with his dumbassery/

by War Eagle (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:08pm

wow, ben somehow gets that off

by bob (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:08pm

This ref crew is awful. Half the calls tonight on either side have been on apparently nonexistent things -- and they always seem to pick drive ending plays on which to do it. Terrible.

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:14pm

Apparently it's okay to throw BRoeth down to the ground well after he throws the football.

by War Eagle (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:14pm

So...as far as I can tell, what happened on the Washington unsportsmanlike penalty was the following: 85 makes the catch, someone on the Jags sideline is making the incomplete signal, 85 shows him the ball and gets 15. Crazy.

Also, Al Davis is bewildered that the Steelers pass on the play before the 2 minute warning because he apparently doesn't realize that the clock is going to stop anyway.


by War Eagle (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:16pm

and by Al Davis I mean Al Michaels

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:19pm

So should the play clock have reset or not?

by War Eagle (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:23pm

Steelers clearly expected it to, but I don't know the rule.

by Dave Bernreuther :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:25pm

47 seconds to go... plenty of time for the refs to make another series-changing personal foul call.

edit: OK, not a major call, but what did Winter just move the ball back 2 yards after that fumble?

by Rocco :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:29pm

With less than two minutes left in the game, a fumble can only be advanced by the player who fumbles. If the fumbling team recovers, it goes back to the spot of the fumble. It's the Holy Roller rule, which Madden should remember if he weren't senile.

by War Eagle (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:24pm

How the hell did he get called down?

by War Eagle (not verified) :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:25pm

Game, geez that was way closer than it should have been.

by Becephalus :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:31pm

What is with Eagles fans? They lose a close game to a good team to fall to 2-3. Have probably looked like a top 10 or at worst top 16 team, and have been great for years now. Get a f******* grip man. You are living in one of the best sports towns in America, you need to collectively chill. Every loss is the Apocalypse. Try moving to Minneapolis or Detroit. Did you see the tigers this year, they were supposed to win 100 games and were terrible, the Twins on the other hand played like crazy and owned the Whitesox down the stretch only to give it away in a one game playoff. I won't even mention the "Superbowl contending Vikings"...or the Lions...

Get a grip, you come off as a bunch of spoiled rich children complaining that daddies allowance of an apartment and a Volvo isn't generous enough and you should also get a beach house.

Or is it just a pose, like it was for Boston fans?

The Wire should win the Nobel prize for literature.

by Spoilt Victoria... :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 7:09am

If this were 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, or even 2007, I would agree with you. And, indeed, I did agree with you, arguing tirelessly with the majority of Eagles fans who wanted someone to be fired because we didn't win the Super Bowl.

But we have been through those years already, and yeah, being "probably a top 10 team" is not going to do it anymore. This is the oldest team in the toughest division in professional sports. The core of the team, including the coaching staff, is almost certainly finished improving, and we are quickly running out of "next years." So yes, losing the third of three one-possession games is just a tiny bit excruciating, particularly when being 2-3 puts you in last place in your division by two games.

by Becephalus :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 12:09pm

Why do you assume you have any right to win? If anything the Eagles are due for a decade of mediocrity (which won't happen because they are so well run). You really really take that team for granted.

The Wire should win the Nobel prize for literature.

by Spoilt Victoria... :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 1:04pm

Well, presumably we have the same right to win as every other team in the league.

Obviously there is still plenty of time to turn this season around. If it continues as it's started, though, they'll have finished in last place in their division for three of the last four seasons. How many times do you say, "Well, they're a better team than that" before concluding that, no, that is actually the best they can do?

I love Reid, McNabb, etc. They've been by far the best team I've been fortunate enough to root for. (Although I'm afraid that's not saying much.) But -- again, if they can't turn this season around -- what is there to hope for in the future, exactly? I'm just not sure what the value of an 8-8 season is if it's not building toward something.

Perhaps you're right that I've just forgotten what it felt like when they regularly went 3-13. But my recollection is that those losses weren't nearly as painful or frustrating as these.

by CathyW :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 7:12pm

I think the point is that we didn't expect much from those 3-13 teams, so when they did win, it was awesome.

Reid's teams have been maddeningly, frustratingly, hovering on the edge of greatness for the last several years, but they can never quite get over that hump. Instead they tantalize and tease the fans with what could be, and then sucker punch us in the gut with mediocrity.

That last drive in SB 39, where I and every other Eagles fan in the world was screaming at the TV "HURRY UP!!!!!!!!!!" still haunts my nightmares, and probably will forever.

by Harris :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 7:58pm

Because there is nothing more maddening to watch than a team that is good enough to win consistently find ways to lose. Because this was supposed to be the year they geared up for one final run, yet they're last in the division again. Because after watching them total almost 80 points in the first two weeks, they haven't totaled 60 the past three weeks. Because "close, but no cigar" isn't fucking good enough anymore.

"A little celery is always nice after a good pee."

by Spoilt Victoria... :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 8:24pm

Actually, I would be fine with "close, but no cigar." If we were still making it deep into the playoffs I'd be perfectly happy.

by Dales :: Tue, 10/07/2008 - 8:29am

"Because there is nothing more maddening to watch than a team that is good enough to win consistently find ways to lose."

This was the life of a Giants fan, up until last year.

Chin up. We broke out of the funk to win it. Maybe you guys can, too.

by tornadot :: Sun, 10/05/2008 - 11:39pm

Anyone watch the Denver/Tampa game? I had to go to work so I missed the second half. I saw they won but should I be encouraged or discouraged by it?

by DaveInTucson :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 12:14am

I didn't see it either, but the fact that the Broncos displayed a previously unsuspected ability to play defense should be encouraging to their fans.

I have a blog where I post objective power rankings of NFL teams.

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 8:40pm

Drew Brees channelling Sparta...

by Rocco :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 8:49pm

It always amazes me how Brees pretty much melted his entire throwing shoulder and comes back from it to be arguably the best QB in football right now. A pitcher does that and he's never heard from again.

by Jin (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 8:52pm

I'm stuck in fan limbo, I want the Vikings to win ofcourse but I also want Childress to get fired. Any suggestions guys?

by Jin (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 8:57pm

"Opened up the playbook" - Jaws

Every Viking fan had a nice chuckle at that comment.

by Jin (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 9:10pm

Goddamn coverege team

by Rocco :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 9:29pm

16 minutes in and this is the strangest football game I've seen so far.

by Jin (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 9:34pm

I know! Shiancoe didnt drop the TD!!!

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 9:41pm

tough break but can't review a facemask.

Tyrell Johnson has a lot to learn...

by Tarrant :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 9:41pm

Wow. How did they miss that face mask? That was pretty blatant.

Ed Hochuli has not had a particularly good season so far.

by TomC :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 9:42pm

Two things:

1) Brutal, brutal missed facemask call on that Bush fumble. Great year for Guns's crew.

2) Kornheiser on Brees & Payton: "In some countries, these guys would be picking out furniture." I absolutely cannot believe he said that.

by Tarrant :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 10:02pm

2) Kornheiser on Brees & Payton: "In some countries, these guys would be picking out furniture." I absolutely cannot believe he said that.

It was pretty stunning he made that comment. That said, I laughed.

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 9:42pm

Angry situation in the superdome...

by fromanchu (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 9:47pm

at least i won't have to hear people talk about how great a ref he is again. guess biceps don't make you a good ref.

by DaveInTucson :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 9:51pm

Just turned the game on. AP has 5 yards on 6 carries? Wow.

I have a blog where I post objective power rankings of NFL teams.

by TomC :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 9:56pm

Fer Pete's sake, Reggie, hold on to the damn ball!

by Jesse :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 10:05pm

This might be the most ridiculous game of the year.

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 10:15pm

wow Ed is going for broke...

by Tarrant :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 10:16pm

Hochuli is gonna get killed by a fan before the end of the season, I tell you. It will be tragic, but what is it about his crew and situations like that?

by Jin (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 10:19pm

Nice to see the crew ripping Childress's playcalling.

by mack (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 10:19pm

I assume hochuli will personally refund all wagers placed on new orleans

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 10:23pm

I don't think the Saints have punted this game...

by Tarrant :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 10:25pm

I have no idea whether that call on that fumble was correct or not - I assume it's the right one (although if a wide receiver had that kind of "control" of a ball after catching it, it would be ruled incomplete). If the NFL ends up coming out later this week and saying "Yeah, first of all, that face mask, a terrible blown call, and second, that fumble replay? Should have been reversed," then Hochuli may as well simply retire (or at least step back for the season) - he'll hear it from fans everywhere he goes the rest of the season after his crew having blown multiple significant calls.

by fromanchu (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 10:31pm

SO bizarre, he announced his verdict from that replay as if he knew he was wrong. He knew they never rule it that way.
Is he just to stubborn to admit he'd yet again blown his whistle too soon?

by Tarrant :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 10:36pm

But unlike the previous call he made (the incomplete pass), in this case, the NFL specifically changed the rules so that possession CAN be awarded to the team that recovered the ball.

But it was an odd explanation - that the ball was indeed coming out, but there was still a hand on the ball. I don't think I've ever heard that terminology before.

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:03pm

The Vikings have got to put together at least one legitimate drive. They can't count on the Saints to keep shooting themselves in the foot...

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:03pm

The Vikings have got to put together at least one legitimate drive. They can't count on the Saints to keep shooting themselves in the foot...

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:07pm

You'd think the vikings would have realized the risk of punting to bush repeatedly...

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:07pm

You'd think the vikings would have realized the risk of punting to bush repeatedly...

by Jin (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:08pm

Wow we have the worst ST coverage units in the league.

by Jin (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:14pm

This offense is worthless...

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:15pm

Chris Kluwe - KCW? He kicked it to Bush again...

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:15pm

Chris Kluwe - KCW? He kicked it to Bush again...

by Jin (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:20pm

Well at least we have a defense :(

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:23pm

they should let Peterson return kickoffs here...

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:23pm

they should let Peterson return kickoffs here...

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:25pm

Vikings self-destructing again....

by TomC :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:27pm

Holy special teams, Batman!

by Jin (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:27pm

Thats it, Fire him

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:28pm

Its one thing to lose this game.

But losing it this way....

Whoever the vikings special teams coach is, he's probably gone. If not Childress.

by Pat F. :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:29pm


by Jin (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:30pm

Thats it, Fire him

by DEW (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:30pm

You know, if they'd stop trying to make Reggie Bush into Brian Westbrook, someone might figure out he's a pretty decent Devin Hester. He's got the open-field moves and the speed; he's got considerably better receiving skills, and his hands...well, those are about equal, though at least he generally waits until he gets his clock cleaned by the defense to cough it up.

by TomC :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:36pm

Agreed. And when the Bears are doing a better job than you of developing skill players, it's time to take a long look in the mirror.

by lionsbob :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:34pm

Nice knowing you Childress. The NFC North will likely have 2 new head coaches after this season.

by Jin (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:38pm

Lionsbob, neither Marinelli nor Childress should be on the sidelines in the game between our teams next week

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:39pm

someone did not get the audible. somehow the vikings get the TD anyway.

by Jin (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:41pm

Holy shit our players overcame the dumbass play for a TD, seriously wtf is this, 2 guys running to the same spot...

oh can you please get rid of the captchas?

by Pat F. :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:47pm

Ouch, poor Miller. I don't think Griffin should be fined for that, though... he got his helmet down below the TE's shoulders to make a sound tackle, Miller just accidentally ducked into the hit.

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:50pm

childress should call timeout after this play

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:50pm

childress should call timeout after this play

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:54pm

oh well. no need. and gramatica misses it.

Ok. if Frerotte can salvage this, its a stay of execution. still pretty inexcusable, but....

ah, probably jinxing it.

by Jin (not verified) :: Tue, 10/07/2008 - 12:16am

No, he should still get fired, this offense is putrid and has been throughout his whole tenure, last week he literally quit agaisnt the Titans and this week he kept kicking it to Reggie, all this on top of the horrible job he has done since getting the job. He and Bevell (the OC) should get axed, ST coach as well. Our ST were garbage in his 1st year, good last year and competing with the offense this year for the "Biggest piece of Turd Unit in the League" award.

by fromanchu (not verified) :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:57pm

that was so predictable, and so obvioulsy to anyone but an NFL coach that it was the wrong strategy.
someday, you would think that they would learn after the one NFL coah that plays to win instead of not to lose won three championships.

by andrew :: Mon, 10/06/2008 - 11:57pm

wow. that was pretty blatant.

by andrew :: Tue, 10/07/2008 - 12:00am

If Longwell makes this, look for Reggie Bush on the kickoff return...

by milo :: Tue, 10/07/2008 - 12:00am

40 f*cking years of this sh*t.

by andrew :: Tue, 10/07/2008 - 12:04am

even though he got the INT, he should have knocked it down.

by Rocco :: Tue, 10/07/2008 - 12:05am

The Saints shut down Peterson, get 2 punt return TDs from Bush, and still find a way to lose. Unreal. This is definitely the craziest game of the year so far.

by TomC :: Tue, 10/07/2008 - 12:36am

Somehow I think this was not a preview of the NFC Championship game.

by andrew :: Tue, 10/07/2008 - 1:26am

Most of the game I was thinking Frerotte was mildly better than Jackson if only because there weren't any glaring mistakes like INTs... as the game turned sour for the viking offense with 3 consecutive 3-and-outs I was doubting they were much better at all. But then came the drive to tie it up when down 27-20. I can't imagine Tarvaris Jackson pulling that off, under that kind of pressure, in that situation. For that alone, Frerotte has to be the QB, at least for this season.

by andrew :: Tue, 10/07/2008 - 4:07pm

Ok, confirmed, on the Berrian TD he ran the wrong route, the play called (audibled?) by Frerotte was supposed to be Berrian to the corner, Allison to the post. Berrian ran to the post and somehow with all the saints coverage drawn to that spot, and allson partly colliding with Berrian, Berrian still made the play for the TD. If Berrian had run the correct route, Allison probably gets the TD, both of them were a step past their man. And that's probably due to that Saints rookie getting hurt and them having to send back Jason David.

As for Kluwe punting to Bush, Childress apparently told him to kick out of bounds after the first TD, and he claims he just mis-hit both of them so they didn't get there. Which will probably keep his punting average higher (but not his net). Childress was furious at Kluwe after the second one (the one where Bush slipped) and got into him on the sideline and Kluwe still did it again. In the press conference, Childress indicated he would get another punter if Kluwe couldn't handle the task of punting out of bounds. Oddly, Kluwe almost sounds unrepentant, saying he thought he had a good game. Its as if he cared more about his punting average than winning the game or his directions from the coach. He was like "well if they want me to kick it there I can, but..." as if he didn't approve of the direction to do something like that, which would cost him average...

Kluwe already potentially cost the vikings a game in Green Bay, when he outpunted the coverage and allowed Blackmon to take it all the way.

by BillWallace :: Tue, 10/07/2008 - 5:46pm

A comment on the balance of the missed calls. The Saints got the benefit of a huge one.
The dropped WR screen pass sometime in the second half has recovered by the Vikings, and then the whistle blew. The ref onscreen was obviously going to call it a backwards pass/lateral but apparently got preempted by another ref and it was ruled an incomplete pass. The Vikings did not challenge.

I replayed it in slomo a bunch of times and I'm 95% sure it was backwards, if only by a half or quarter of a yard. It may not have been overturned on challenge, but if it were originally ruled a fumble, it definitely wouldn't have been overturned.

Big break for the Saints.

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