Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting Outside Bar

When I saw the headline, I just figured somebody accidentally typed "Marvin Harrison" instead of "Pacman Jones."

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95 comments, Last at 13 May 2008, 8:34am

2 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

How tough is it to do your job, spend your millions and not be involved in stupid stuff like this?

You give me a part-time job catching footballs that pays $5MM a year (or more in Marvin's case) and I can assure you...I'm not shooting anybody, stabbing anybody, etc.

I would have 5 million annual reasons to not do so...

Knuckleheads...flat out knuckleheads.

6 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

has the world gone insane? next thing you're going to tell me is that pacman is joining the jesuits. this can't possibly be the same marvin harrison who plays for the colts. what's going on?

8 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Yeah, this looks terrible. Apparently the only things he has going for him in this is that he was at his own establishment and the dude he shot did 10 years for homicide.

From the sounds of things, that's not going to help him much.

9 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

According to NFL Live a law in Pennsylvania states that if a gun is used in shooting the owner is guilty of a crime even if he is not the shooter. Marvin may be in trouble even if he didn't pull the trigger.

10 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Trying to see this is the best light possible, one possible way this happened was that the man he was arguing with in his establishment had said he was going to get his gun, and Marvin decided he wasn't going to let that happen.

He got spooked and decided he could hide the evidence and it would go away.

I'm not a Colts fan, but I really want to believe the best of Harrison.

11 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Apparently witness reports conflict over who pulled the trigger. The main guy said it wasn't Harrison, another bystander who got hit is willing to testitfy that it was. Police are looking for a tiebreaking witness.

13 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

I second a lot of you (1, 3, 4, 5, 6) when I say: "what the hell? No, seriously, what the hell?"

When I saw the headline "Harrison investigated in shooting" I assumed that they meant JAMES Harrison, and just put Marvin's photo on by mistake. Which makes no sense, but still makes more sense than the sequence of events that has been reported.

(For hockey fans, I still haven't recovered from the "Sean Avery cardiac arrest" fiasco earlier this week; stupid sports stories, messing with my view of reality.)

15 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

2: That's a decent point, but maybe playing football was just a means of attaining a lifelong dream of owning a bar and recklessly wielding fancy weapons. If so, you have to admire him for not letting fiscal concerns get in the way of his dream.

18 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Why all the surprise about this? From some of your reactions you'd think Harrison was a rock-solid pillar of the community.

I know Harrison prefers to let his play do the talking unlike certain other WRs and projects a seemingly humble image when dealing with the media. Somehow that's given him this saintly reputation. I know he does some requisite charity work in my hometown of Philly, but he also has illegitimate kids, I believe by several women. Also have heard other rumors of him being less than couth, I do take those with a grain of salt. I've got nothing personally against the dude, but never understood why people think they know him personally to be such a great guy.

19 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Re 18: Could we please stop this crap about somebody being a bad guy because he has illegitimate children (this came up in a Tom Brady thread as well)? There is no connection whatsoever between somebody having illegitimate children and shooting a gun at somebody.

20 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

It's because the media has a strong distaste for people like Terrell Owens and Chad Johnson, who due to their loudmouth natures are constantly in the news. The media at large is happy to lionize a quiet wide receiver as a hard working, lunch-pail type.

And *if* the early reports are accurate--it does seem like reporting of breaking sports-related stories is slowly becoming more tabloidish--then yeah, it looks like Harrison is going down hard. But something tells me Goodell won't be harsh with him.

22 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

19: I think you are off base a bit. I think it is natural to assume a correlation between illegitimacy and being a "bad guy". After all, it sounds right that there would be more illegitimacy in the criminal population than the non-criminal population.
But, I think the real point is that I don't think having an illegitimate child MAKES you into a criminal. It's just a confusion of correlation and causation.

24 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

It's funny how I just assumed that Marvin could do no wrong based solely on the fact that he puts up big-time numbers without the WR-Diva drama. Now that I think about it, I didn't know a damn thing about him outside of football.

25 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

19: I never equated having a bunch of illegitimate kids with shooting somebody. I was just pointing out that some of the facts of Harrison's life don't jive with the squeaky clean image the media portrays, one of a handful of NFL stars who is presented as this all-around great guy.

But I also gotta say - I've worked in social services assisting single mothers for a number of years, and have seen firsthand how pervasive and damaging that kind of thing is in urban communities. Not to say it instantly makes Marvin an a-hole, but it sure ain't making the world a better place.

26 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

The latest reports are (according to ESPN, who have talked with Harrison's agent and lawyer) saying that the reports are erroneous, and that he is not the subject of the investigation. Something has probably already changed by now. Who knows? Also, add me to the list of "WFT?!" reactions.

27 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Add me into the "not all that shocked category", I always thought Harrison had a reputation as a bit of a jerk. Didn't he attack a ball boy on the Giants(?) once?

28 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

From the ESPN comments:

If this is his club, how does he not have enough security to keep him safe? When a guy starts a fight with Marvin Harrison in his own club, only one thing should need to happen: Marvin snaps his fingers and four 300-pound men carry the guy out.

I actually misread it to say four men carry the gun out, but the point is still good.

29 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

why is everyone so shocked? Marvin harrison is quiet, but he;s not a good guy. I dont know how you people didnt know this aboiut him. you give me hard time all the time but I know what's up. I knew about Harrison ebing bad and I know wbaout Raiders being good team in 2008. So maybe now you will listen to me and place bets on raiders in lasv gegas if you go there before seaosn starts. if play fantasy football I advise signing Javon Walker . Lets see 90 catches 1350 yards 12 tDs sound sbaout right. D Mcfadden and Fargas good quality pickups too. might spilt carries but both should be valuable fantasy guys. Z Miller (great up and cominger) is about as good a TE to draft in fantasy gfopotball as any TE. T Gonzalez on way down. Chiefs going to be bead and QB (Brodie Hoyle) is gabrage. Z Mller in maybe 10th round of 12 team draft is good call. most people wont pick him , will be too busy on guys like t Gonzalez (will not be as good this year due toChiefs bad team and bad QB play of B Crole), and Todd Heap (nother guy who best days is behind him) and others. But Miller is great fantasy pickup. You wont be disspainted.

31 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Re: 16
The suit was dropped pretty quickly in the Hawaii choking case. There wasn't really any evidence. ESPN mentions it at the bottom of the Harrison story linked at the top.

32 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Yea, the fact that he used his fancy custom Belgian gun makes me wonder what he scored on the Wonderlic. It's almost enough to make me think he's innocent, nobody is that stupid right?

34 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

The latest reports are (according to ESPN, who have talked with Harrison’s agent and lawyer) saying that the reports are erroneous, and that he is not the subject of the investigation.

Consider the source.

37 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

It sounds like Harrison may be in trouble.

His agent is hitting the point that they are not naming Harrison as a suspect in the shooting. As I see it, though, that's pretty meaningless. No suspects have been named yet, but someone did get shot, so there has to be a suspect anywhere.

Given that it was apparently done with Harrison's gun, and that the gun was later found at another one of his places of business, it doesn't look good for him.

38 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

#36: As someone who grew up in a "rural community", I can assure you that there are plenty of redneck single mothers, and most of them are white.

#37: So far, the circumstantial evidence appears so overwhelming, it almost makes me suspect he's being framed. I mean, who's stupid enough to shoot someone with a rare Belgian gun, in the parking lot of a bar he owns, after being seen publicly arguing with the guy in the bar, and then leave the gun at a carwash that he also happens to own?

It reminds me of a typical plot from "Matlock".

39 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Add me to the WTF list. Everything looks bad on the surface--saying he is not a suspect holds no water. They always say that until they knock on your door with a warrant--THEN you're a suspect. We're relying on his agent?!?! His lawyer?! They have a vested interest in PR here. Of course on the other side is a radio station with a spotty history of sensationalism.

Sounds like it was his gun and maybe even him firing. If the victim was a convicted murderer ex-con who just had an altercation with Marvin, there may be some justification for shooting his hand. But 7 shots fired? That sounds a bit excessive for self defense. Did Wile E Coyote drop a safe on the victim as well?

Conflicting witness reports, unreliable media sources, the cops say a car on the highway may have been involved... it's all so jumbled. But things do not look good for the man.

Maybe, just MAYBE, I am relieved that my wife prevailed and we did not name our first son after him 7 years ago.... or maybe this will be Indy's "Spygate": Marvin, pissed off at the media and the league that abandoned him, speaks even less to the media, catches 250 passes for 4,000 yards and 40 TDs, then serves 20-to-life after the Super Bowl for eating the heads off several cornerbacks and the police coincidentally find a .99 caliber Belgian handgun in his locker with an RPG attachment. Marvin claims the gun is not his but the manufacturer refutes that, saying, "We call that model the Marvin Harrison's gonna put you outta your misery automatic."

Could happen.

40 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Can someone with knowledge of ballistics tests help me understand something here?

My impression is that if you have a slug you can identify certain patterns and markings on it that indiciate the barrel that fired it. Typically you obtain a suspect gun, fire it into water, and compare the two slugs for identical markings.

You don't pull a round out of a guy's hand, inspect it, and like a phony wine connosieur on a TV show who can identify the hillside the grapes came from, say "this looks like the work of a custom Belgian automatic." To have a ballistics match, you have to have a control sample from a known weapon, and the one you are trying to match (like a qual analysis in a chem lab, you compare the unknown against a series of knowns).

But the way the reports are written, it seems that police determined the bullets were fired from a custom Belgian pistol and Harrison happens to own the same type. What a coincidence!

That sounds, to me, like a 5th grader writing a mystery story. I don't watch any crime shows on TV and it's been a decade or more since I read much fiction or non-fiction crime books. So somebody, Help!

Also, they should have been able to swab his hands and the gun and come up with a nearly certain match if he was the triggerman--they've had three days to do this! If he wasn't the triggerman, it's still a misdemeanor, but far less of an issue.

41 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

So far, the circumstantial evidence appears so overwhelming, it almost makes me suspect he’s being framed. I mean, who’s stupid enough to shoot someone with a rare Belgian gun, in the parking lot of a bar he owns, after being seen publicly arguing with the guy in the bar, and then leave the gun at a carwash that he also happens to own?

I honestly thought that too, but in a sense that almost seems to obvious for a set-up as well.

It might not be anything, but it doesn't look good for Harrison at the moment.

And also, as someone said earlier, seven shots seem to be very excessive, especially when you read that Harrison chased the man out of the bar. Obviously, you cannot claim self defense when your attacker is trying to retreat. From the sound of it, he chased the man out of the bar with guns blazing until he may or may not have ran out of bullets. If that's true, his attorney would be disbarred if he even tried to claim self defense on that one.

42 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Is there any worse feeling than being chased by a man with a rare Belgian gun and a 4.28 40-yard time? Glad to see Marvin re-habbing that knee by chasing and then shooting patrons of his bar. Seriously, seven shots? If true, Harrison wanted to really kill this guy. If true and those bullets went to the left or right by a few inches, we could be talking about Marvin Harrison standing trial for murder.

43 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

42 If he hit him with rounds that big there wouldn't be enough of a victim left to ID. A chunk of meat here, a pool of blood there.... Too peculiar.

And almost as bad, your post made me flash back to a pretty bad movie, "The Last Boy Scout," in which a WR at the end of his rope had a handgun on the field and was returning a kick, IIRC, and shot a would-be tackler. So bad it was funny. I was hoping to forget that waste of 100 minutes of my life. Perhaps Marvin saw it recently, in a double feature with "Goodfellas." Pretty sure that one had a pretty gruesome barroom killing. Is Joe Pesci a friend of Marvin's? Just asking.

45 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

All a clever plot, Polian has gotten word from Colts medical staff Marv won't be back and frames him to be able to cut him without public outcry.

Oh, on a totally unrelated note, Tecmo Bowl is coming back (link).

46 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Funny how the media seems to take a position on people and tries to shape people as either heroes or villains.

I knew nothing about Harrison other than what I heard from NFL reporters and announcers. It was all about what a great guy he was compared to the Randy Moss's and Terrell Owens of the world. I presumed he was some kind of saint. Now you read he's had two incidents before this alleged incident in which he assaulted juveniles to some extent.

47 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

2. Coach Dave - Money doesn't change who you are at your core. Money doesn't make you happier or smarter. Money doesn't give you some magical ability to control your temper.

In fact, there are all sorts of studies that suggest that the more money one gets the unhappier they tend to become.

We non mega millionaires tend to think if we had what those mega millionaires had we'd be suddenly different people. Studies suggest it's just not the case.

49 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

I'm actually very, very curious about this custom belgian handgun. Most media reporting on firearms is pretty terrible, so I'm wondering exactly how it's customized. The way they describe it, it sounds like Scaramanga's golden gun, which makes no sense.

Most 'custom' firearms usually means a factory model with custom exterior fittings - like engravings, or ivory on the grip, etc. These have no impact on ballistics.

Customized weapons for a unique calibre exist, but they're rare for the simple reason that there's really no reason for anyone to do it. There's no benefit to firing custom-made 9.375 mm ammunition instead of readily available 9 or 10 mm ammo.

I wonder if it's an FN Five SeveN, incorrectly reported as 'custom-made' because it's relatively new and fires 5.7mm ammunition.

50 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

It will be interesting to see how Goodell handles this. He suspended Pacman Jones indefinitely for his role in the strip club shooting without waiting for any kind of decision from the courts. Will he suspend Harrison too?

51 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

I'm guessing that Marvin will be able to make this go away for a fairly modest amount of money. The victim doesn't soundlike the sort that will get a bunch of sympathy from jury so his options are limited. He wants money (I'm assuming based on his not having fingered anyone yet), but doesn't want to go to court. Marvin wants it to go away. Gotta believe they will come to a mutually acceptable solution.

That will make it tough for Goodell to do anything too dramatic.

54 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

re: 49

I was going to mention that yesterday. I've owned a Five-seveN USG since 2005, and the 5.7x28mm round-firing handgun is not difficult to obtain, even though it hasn't garnered widespread interest in the States. Lackluster media reporting could easily confuse "rare" with "custom." If police found a 5.7mm slug at the scene, it's almost a sure thing it was fired from a Belgian Five-seveN (or P90), customized or not.

The other interesting thing to note is that that particular handgun is one of the most shooter-friendly models around in that it produces almost no recoil. Even a casual marksman should have no difficulty landing seven shots on a close target (the magazine holds 10 or 20 rounds). If only one out of seven shots was a hit my best guess is that the target was moving quickly, or the shooter's concentration was inhibited by something - alcohol, rage, etc. Another possiblity is that whoever fired the gun fired 6 warning shots. It's impossible to know yet which of the seven shots fired was the one that hit the victim.

55 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

"PFT is all over this"

Of course Florio is all over this. He hates Polian and the Colts with a passion and has had a clear and obvious bias against them for many, many years (e.g., his making a big deal of the youtube video of Manning ripping Saturday that recently aired).

And I don't care if Marvin is happy or not...having $ gives you options. Going to jail takes all those options away. Of course money doesn't make you smart...but it gives you perspective that says..."hey, jail would really suck compared to my rich life where I can pretty much do what I like".

56 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

About the illegitimate kids thing: One of my best friends has an illegitimate son, and he takes care of him and lives with the mother. They just don't want to get married because they had a child because that's the wrong reason to get married.

The times that illegitimate children have problems is when the father is not involved; hell, legitimate children who have absentee, negligent, or abusive fathers are the ones who are more likely to cause trouble in society.

So fathering a child out of wedlock is NOT a problem. Not being a father to your child, whether or not you're married to the woman, is the problem.

46: But Owens and Moss aren't criminals, yet the media hates them and tells sports fans that they should hate them. Because sports fans are, in general, stupid, they allow the media to think for them.

55: That's a very naive point of view.

57 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Last night, the story was that Marvin Harrison followed some guy out of his bar after a fight and a shooting occurred. Today the story is that the shooting didn't occur at the bar or even on the same day as the fight in the bar. I'd say everything else we heard last night is pretty suspect now also.

58 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

It's interesting how people come to get their reputations. There are guys like Pacman Jones, Albert Belle, etc., who you always hear about. Then there are guys like Kirby Puckett and (now, maybe) Marvin Harrision, where it comes as a bit of a shock.

61 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

We non mega millionaires tend to think if we had what those mega millionaires had we’d be suddenly different people. Studies suggest it’s just not the case.

I think it helps if you weren't born into. Samuel L. Jackson had a great quote on this subject in an interview I read a while back:

Q: Can money buy happiness?

SLJ: No, but it can buy you a damn nice substitute until happiness comes along.

#51:

If Harrison fired off seven shots in public, settling with the guy who was hit may not be enough. The state may press charges anyway, though I guess it's conceivable that he could pay off the witnesses.

62 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

#55 wrote:

Of course Florio is all over this. He hates Polian and the Colts with a passion and has had a clear and obvious bias against them for many, many years

No kidding. I'm not a Colts fan or anything, but the anti-Colts stuff at PTF was obnoxious and turned me off to the whole thing. I wrote and told him and he said "you'll be back" but to date, I haven't been and don't plan to.

63 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

#53 - Ha! Truth be told, I've never even held a gun in my life, let alone fired one. I actually encourage Giants-hatred as remedy to the dreaded FOMBC, so go knock yourself out.

64 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

54: Nobody fires warning shots. In most shootings, the victim is armed (or is assumed by the shooter to be armed), so wasting time with a warning that could lead to you being shot is not a wise move.

65 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Scariest sign I ever hear of--in a military research lab with armed MP guards:

"Follow all security personnell instructions immediately. NO WARNING SHOTS WILL BE FIRED".

67 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

re #66:

Oh please. You're going to be VERY hard pressed to find any statistical study of 'warning shots fired'.

While I'm not Fnor, I can tell you:
1) The majority of law enforcement DOES NOT fire warning shots (linked in name)
2) The majority of respectable firearms training teaches you NOT to fire a warning shot.
3) Any sane hoodrat learns VERY early on to NEVER fire a warning shot.

The link gives the reason why for law enforcement (many of which spill over to your average gun-toting joe.) Add to that the simple fact that you're wasting bullets, and giving them a chance to fire back.

68 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

66:

Pretty much any firearm instruction class you take will tell you to not fire a warning shot.

In any case, the original point I think still stands; even a person who does fire a warning shot is probably not going to fire SIX of them.

69 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

But the way the reports are written, it seems that police determined the bullets were fired from a custom Belgian pistol and Harrison happens to own the same type. What a coincidence!

If you have a bullet that's still relatively intact, then you can easily determine the caliber by measuring the diameter of the bullet. If it's a 5.7mm bullet, for instance, then there's only a few types of guns in the world that could have shot it, all of them Belgian. And given that the only one that's not a submachine gun is a pistol, they'd probably just assume it was the pistol. And if Harrison had a 5.7mm pistol, and the shooting took place at his bar, they'd probably put 2 and 2 together, and conclude it was his gun. They'll have to do ballistics testing to be certain, but it's not like tons of people hang out at bars in America with 5.7mm pistols.

If it was an FN Five-Seven, then the whole "custom" thing could be referring to certain custom sights or magazines that can be added to the gun by a gunsmith. Of course, you wouldn't be able to tell from ballistics tests, but that's probably just media mistaking "rare" for "custom" as others have noted.

Also, they should have been able to swab his hands and the gun and come up with a nearly certain match if he was the triggerman–they’ve had three days to do this!

I'm not sure I understand what process you're referring to. They could check his hands to determine whether he has fired a gun in the past couple days, but I wasn't aware of any method for determining which gun he might have fired.

70 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Hopefully this impresses on people that ALL teams in the NFL have players on their roster who just aren't very nice people. Not just the Bengals, or Cowboys or whoever else fans/media are picking on.

The website I've linked lists arrests/citations of NFL players since 2000. Since 2005, there have been 203(!) such incidents, and the Bengals, everybody's poster team for off-field issues, account for only 16 of those. Higher than their "fair" share, for sure, but clearly off-field discipline is very much a league-wide problem and not confined to one or two teams. The fact that many teams pay lip service to character shouldn't deceive us.

71 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

71:

Why should it make that impression? You don't even know what happened yet. It's disgusting how eager people are to believe anything that tarnishes a reputation. You just want everyone brought down to your level. At this point, what evidence does anyone have that Marvin Harrison is not, in fact, a saint? We've got a lot more evidence that the creeps at ESPN will report anything if it's controversial enough, and then start debating hypotheticals and responding to each others' careless speculation just to kill time while a story is still developing.

Why isn't everyone's first reaction: how many of the "facts" of this story are just speculation and mistakes by ESPN and company?

73 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

72
Thus was born the IRRATIONAL MARVIN HARRISON BELGIAN GUN THREAD
Is he guilty? Is he innocent? Should he have guns? Should WE have guns? I think we all know the answer depends on what team you root for.

74 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Re: 55

That's really an if-then proposition that some people just can't follow. My landlord is a public defender, and almost every case she loses, she loses because the prosecutor says to the defendant, "Why didn't you just walk away?" and the guy never has an answer.
A couple months ago a guy at a gas station started getting in my face, and I left, and the guy followed me out to my car screaming at me, and I actually started pushing the car door back open to get out and kick the guy's ass for him, and then I thought, "You know what, it's not worth going to jail," and I pulled the car door closed and drove away. I have known a lot of guys who just couldn't do that, and most of them have been in prison for just that reason.

75 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

I think that the fairest way to look at these cases is to imagine what your reaction would be if the person wasn't an athlete. In Harrison's case for example:
A north Philly bar owner allegdly trades shots with a felon who did 10 years for homicide with whom he fought earlier. No one was seriously wounded, and the 'victim' was reticent to talk to police about the incident.

In that case who would you assume was the bad guy? Would you naturally assume the bar owner had 'character issues' or was in the wrong? Would you assume that the barowner shot first or was guilty of a crime?

To me it sounds like a case that if Harrison wasn't famous probably wouldn't even merit any investigation at all.

Now, Harrison may be a total hoodlum, but I see no reason to assume that from either his behavior before nor from the reports of the incident now.

76 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Re: Ballistics

One of the reports stated that 5 of the 6 shell casings found at the scene were from Marvin's gun, so no magic finding the bullets. It's fairly easy and common to match shell casings to a gun.

Dave

77 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

DZ, are you suggesting that someone firing multiple rounds in/near a crowded establishment, several of which appear to have been aimed at another person, one of which hit, is not worth investigating unless the trigger man is rich and famous?

78 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Like Alex said, a custom gun can mean damn near anything, but usually it only refers to the exterior of he gun, not the chamber or bore. The media are always clueless when it comes to firearms (like referring to an MP5 as an "assault rifle"). Anyway, if 5.7mm cases/bullets were retrieved, it is in all likelihood that the rounds were fired by Harrison's firearm. 5.7's are not that common among civilians and the guns and ammunition are expensive, so I doubt your average ne'er-do-well street thug would be sporting one.

79 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

73: Are you kidding? Your first line is exactly what I'm criticizing. You want everyone to think that every team has this problem with not "very nice people" on their team. However, there isn't any evidence yet that the Colts in particular have that problem. Why, if Harrison is innocent, would we all get the impression that all teams are as bad as the Bengals? You are assuming that Harrison is guilty, and I can't believe you're trying to fake your way out of that comment. It's still there for everyone to see.

74: Really? I'm the first to question the allegations? The talk of guilty or innocent just started with Comment 72? The unprofessional opinion mongering of ESPN, on the otherhand, is a well established fact and did not originate from me. I refer you to their ombudsman's complaints earlier this year.

80 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

#76

That's a pretty good way of looking at it. Five of the six casings were from the FN 5.7, and didn't one of the original stories state that the first shot was fired by the other guy and Harrison (or someone with his gun) fired back. Here is the public information about the case:
5 shots were fired and matched to a FiveseveN pistol registered to Marvin Harrison, which was submitted to the police by Marvin Harrison. Reports that it was found in a water bucket, and that Marvin claimed it never left his house have not been substantiated by the police (and in the case of the water bucket, police statements refute the claim.)
Marvin Harrison had a fistfight with the guy who was shot, and a conflict that lasted at least 2 weeks.
The guy that was shot lied to the hospital and has still not identified Marvin Harrison as the shooter.
Marvin Harrison was interviewed by the police in sworn testimony that was not divulged to the press, but he was not charged with any crime, even though he remains a person of interest in the case.
A child was injured by glass broken due to an errant shot.
Someone called the police to say Harrison was the shooter, but has not been heard from again.
There has to be a reason that Marvin Harrison has not been charged. It could be that the prosecution does not have enough evidence to indict Harrison, and since he is rich and has powerful lawyers they didn't want to arrest him only to have him make bail, not get indicted by a grand jury. There's also the chance that the prosecution doesn't think Harrison committed the offense and is a witness, not a suspect. The assertions on PFT that Marvin is the focus come from Florio editorializing his links, not from the primary articles from the Inquirer. People may ask why Marvin isn't making a public statement to clear his name if he's innocent (which is exactly what Tom Condon said). However, most lawyers advise against going public and causing a media frenzy. Additionally Marvin Harrison is an intensely private person, who doesn't talk to the media. He wants to live his life out of the public eye. Peter King writes about this being a negative for him, but I don't think it is. I can see why PK would assume the worst, he's a journalist who's career rides on access to players and NFL sources. It's perfectly logical to say that he'd be biased against someone who doesn't grant him access (I'm not saying PK is biased, just that his having a bias is logical). If Marvin has assurances from the police (from his interview) that he's not a suspect, then he very well could have told Tom Condon to make the statement he did. If the legal troubles are mostly out of the way then it's conceivable that Marvin is fine with just letting the story die, instead of addressing it further and going on camera (where he's uncomfortable at any time, even after having a great game where there's no way he could be scrutinized).
Finally, from the information that the public has (which is less than what the police have, because it is important for the police to keep info about open cases from the press), here is a plausible scenario. Not that I think this is what happened, but there's just as much evidence for this than any other I've seen. The guy Marvin had a fight with comes back to the bar. They get into another fight, and the guy leaves. Marvin follows him out the door to yell at him not to come back. The guy fires a shot, at this Marvin pulls out his legally registered pistol (or one of his bouncers/bodyguards pulls the pistol) and fires back random shots while ducking for cover to scare away the guy, hitting him in the hand. The panic explains the 5 erratic shots since five bullets can easily be shot from a semiautomatic in a few seconds. Then Marvin keeps it quiet and hopes it passes by unnoticed. When the police come calling he hands over the gun and gives his testimony. Then he releases a statement through his agent and doesn't talk about it to the media because he still has possible legal consequences, even if self defense clears him of the shootings, like liability for the child's injury, and the fighting in the first place. None of which would help his public image, and would just open up himself for attacks like "why were you fighting with the guy in the first place?" These are valid questions that any reporter should ask if give the chance, but Marvin Harrison has the right to not give the media the chance to ask him those questions.
That was just a rational scenario given the known evidence and the lack of charges/arrest, as none of us have any clue what happened last Tuesday night (except the parties involved, and possibly the police and DA). Marvin could very well be arrested this week and put in jail, and if he's guilty then he needs to go to jail, but the trial in the court of law has just been unreasonable. Sorry for this long rant, but today's MMQB really bothered me. A person valuing privacy from the media and public in no way means they are trying to hide guilt. I think it's telling that the reporters implying that Marvin is lots of trouble are 2 guys (Florio and King) that have built their careers on access (and pagehits/ traffic ratings), and discussing a player that doesn't give anyone access to his private life. The point of this rant wasn't to claim that Marvin Harrison is a saint and is innocent, just that some discretion should be taken in jumping to conclusions based when there is a lack of information. Florio and the Inquirer should all be pursuing this story to get the information, but the insinuations made have been a little bit too sensationalistic for my taste.

81 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Ceilingfan, I think you are misinterpreting some of us.
Ryan Mc and my own comments - we agree with you.
I am an experienced Patriots fan and Spygate survivor. It has been 1 week since our last Spygate-trashing. I have adopted the motto "One Day at a Time." If you need a sponsor, I can talk you through this one.

82 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

82: I have re-read your comments, and upon doing so I can give you the benefit of a doubt that you're just not happy with the reckless speculation either. However, Ryan's comment is part of that speculation, and it assumes guilt for the purpose of establishing moral equivalence when it's still possible that Harrison did absolutely nothing wrong and is not even directly involved in the incident. Already, it's the Colts only "pay lip-service" to character. Do you really not see that?

Maybe he's upset that his own team and its players were victims of media sensationalism, but the proper response is to condemn the irresponsible journalism not to revel in the attempt to draw everyone down to your level.

I'll need friendly support only if it's proven that Marvin Harrison actually shot a guy and endangered bystanders for no reason.

83 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

77: I'm saying that in a rough violent neighborhood in North Philly...yes. They just had a cop shot and killed there last week. They have bigger fish to fry than to find out what might have happened in a place where: 1. no one talks to cops and 2. the principle witness/victim did a stretch for homicide. In fact, if Harrison isn't famous, do you really think that a lawyer for a mysterious third party calls the cops? Maybe in happy happy white suburbia this kind of thing is horrifying, but unfortunately it is business as usual far too often in inner city neighborhoods. Do you really think the police do weeklong investigations EVERY time a gun is fired in North Philly?

84 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Ceiling Fan,

my comments were intended to mean that I assume all teams have bad character guys on them, not that I specifically assume Harrison is guilty. I apologise for any suggestion in my wording that I assume Harrison is guilty, since this is certainly not the case. I agree that that would be competely irrsponsible.

Harrison's guilt or innocence is completely irrelevant to my post. I was just annoyed with some of the comments which essentially amounted to "oh my God, surely a member of the COLTS can't possibly be involved in anything untoward." I stand by my assertion that THE NFL, not just a handful of teams, has off-field issues, which was the point of the link I provided.

You asked "Why, if Harrison is innocent, would we all get the impression that all teams are as bad as the Bengals?"

Well, that's changing up what I wrote, which is wrong of you. I specifically acknowledged that the Bengals had been worse than most/all teams. But again, check out the link I provided. Fact is the Colts have been no saints themselves and account for 9 of the incidents on the list since 2005 I referred to in my initial post.

Again, not as many as some other teams, but certainly enough to invalidate any comments in the spirit of "what? A Colts player? No way!"

85 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

My landlord is a public defender, and almost every case she loses, she loses because the prosecutor says to the defendant, “Why didn’t you just walk away?” and the guy never has an answer.

Tell her to move to Florida. Here you can shoot someone for menacing you, regardless of whether or not you could have fled. You can't chase them down and shoot them in the back, though, so if Harrison's charged he'll need to hire someone besides your landlord.

86 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Alex #69, Sorry for the delay, I was out of town. The swabbing I referred to is to pick up traces of (I assume) gun powder or similar substance on the shooter's hands, even days afterwards. Supposedly they are very "sticky" and do not wash off easily. Probably a simple thing to match the chemical signature of residue on a shooter's hands and the slugs/casings/gun. Which is why I would assume, if this procedure was done and he HAD fired the gun, Marvin would be in custody for at least reckless endangerment (firing multiple shots that exceed reasonable interpretation of self-defense.) But that's all speculation. People have certainly been jailed with less data available to the cops--in this case they have a victim, a gun, the casings and slugs, and the gun owner, plus witnesses. But nobody's in custody.

The swabbing is similar to what the TSA does at airports--I've had them wipe what looks like a little alcohol pad over all the zippers on my carry-on once and I asked why. Traces of explosives was the answer. They put it in a solution or under a lamp or whatnot to see if there is something warranting further investigation.

My impression is that if this case did not involve a pretty big star, nobody outside the immediate neighborhood would have heard anything about it. Few reliable facts/witnesses, victim is an ex-con with a grazed hand who appears to have had an argument/altercation in a bar before the shooting. Yawn, next?

Oh wait, there's a celebrity involved? Crank up the baseless supposition machine.

Oh, and MDZ, I will live forever in awe of the length of that post. The content was good too.

87 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

The swabbing I referred to is to pick up traces of (I assume) gun powder or similar substance on the shooter’s hands, even days afterwards. Supposedly they are very “sticky” and do not wash off easily.

That's true, I've heard of that.

Probably a simple thing to match the chemical signature of residue on a shooter’s hands and the slugs/casings/gun.

This is where I'm not so sure. I was under the impression that you could only tell whether they had fired a gun in the last few days, not which gun they had fired. After all, gunpowder isn't always terribly different from one bullet/gun to the next, and I'm not sure the slight differences in impurities would be enough to reliably identify the gun using the residue.

88 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

"My impression is that if this case did not involve a pretty big star, nobody outside the immediate neighborhood would have heard anything about it."

Theres also the chance, that had this not involved a big star, he would have been arrested already.

89 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

Not sure I agree, Rich. Ask Wesley Snipes about that.

I know the IRS is not the local Philly PD, but I'm just saying in some cases, they like nailing high-profile crooks--in Snipes's sentencing, the judge specifically stated why they gave him the max for tax evasion--because he is famous and a good deterrent.

But I agree that if the cops/DA anticipate a long, drawn-out trial against a well-funded favorite son and their evidence is sketchy, they might just as well say "the hell with it."

90 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

"But I agree that if the cops/DA anticipate a long, drawn-out trial against a well-funded favorite son and their evidence is sketchy, they might just as well say “the hell with it.”

If a guy had been shot outside my bar, with my gun, after arguing with me, I'd already be under arrest.

Marvin Harrison has much better lawyers than the local public defender, and the DA knows that.

91 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

My one jury-duty stint featured four defendants, each with their own public defender and one with a private attorney.

Night and day.

The PDs were comically inept (almost slapstick bad) while the private atty was smooth enough to convince one juror of reasonable doubt. And they were on the same side, more or less!

If they had been going head-to-head it would have been a bloodbath. And this was a scuzzball lawyer hired by a janitor/crack dealer; yes, I agree Harrison has access to superior legal counsel.

Maybe Matt Walsh taped it all and after six months of tap-dancing in the media, he'll finally reveal his videotape bombshell: a 90-second segment from the local news broadcast already seen by millions.

92 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

If a felon (homicide) was shot outside your bar with your gun after an exchange of gunfire, I doubt very seriously whether you'd be under arrest already. Why are you assuming that if he shot, he shot first? I'm not sure why self-defense gets taken off the table so quickly here. Maybe the reason the 'victim' doesn't want to talk to the cops is because he shot at Harrison first and he's the one who would be going down. The point is we have no idea and there is no reason to just assume Harrison was wrong EVEN if he did fire the gun. Maybe he was. Maybe he wasn't. The assumption that he couldn't have been justified in firing is odd though.

93 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

I tend to think I'm fairly Americanised as Brits go, but this is the sort of case that really brings home some differences in outlook. I think Britain's gun control laws are slightly excessive but . . . I can't quite get my head around the idea that it might ever be ok for a civilian to fire a gun outdoors in a built up area, self-defense or no.

94 Re: Report: Marvin Harrison Investigated in Shooting…

#93:

I find it hard to get my head around the idea that there might ever be a situation where being a "civilian" had anything to do with whether or not one was justified in firing a gun.