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Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Here is your Class of 2012: Jack Butler, Dermontti Dawson, Chris Doleman, Cortez Kennedy, Curtis Martin and Willie Roaf.

I'm very excited about Dawson and Roaf. The Hall needs more offensive linemen. I voted for Roaf as a write-in candidate for the NFL's "100 Greatest Players of All Time" last year.

I'm stunned that Bill Parcells did not make it in. Stunned. We can stop with the "Tom Coughlin for Hall of Fame" talk right now because until Bill Parcells goes in there's no point in talking about any other coach as a HOF candidate except Bill Belichick.

And no Cris Carter, again. They're really going to have a hard time in the next few years figuring out which wide receivers to put in and judging wide receiver stats which exploded in the 90s.

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230 comments, Last at 12 Feb 2012, 9:16pm

1 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I'm always glad to see more Olinemen get in, but the Parcells snub is absolutely absurd.

On the other hand, I can't really complain about the lack of WRs getting in. I think the two guys from the 90s who had to get in - Rice and Irvin - already are, and the guys from the 00s who have to get in - Moss and Owens - aren't eligible yet.

5 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I have no problem not putting Parcells in if the rest of the class was worthy of it - and in this case, I think they are. All things considered, I favor players over coaches and others. It's not like he got snubbed for Art Monk or Floyd Little - the guys who got in, should have gotten in. And in the case of Dawson, he was snubbed far worse than Parcells was, for far longer.

2 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

The one thing I will say about Carter is that though he had gobs of catches and touchdowns, he really didn't gain that many yards with those catches. He was top 10 in receptions 10 times, but top 10 in yards only five times, and never higher than seventh. He averaged 12.6 yards per catch. That's in the bottom 10 for all wide receivers with at least 500 catches. All-time great possession guy, all-time great red zone guy, just about zero as a big-play guy.

14 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Subjectively, when they were playing, I thought Chris Carter was significantly better than Art Monk or Andre Reed, and about even with Tim Brown and maybe a hair behind Marvin Harrison. I thought Sterling Sharpe was better than any of them, but unfortunately broke his neck at the prime of his career.

I was rather young when I watched most of them play, though, so I can't really give you a good explanation of why I felt that way, or really defend my impression. I'm just curious how others feel purely off subjective evaluations of watching them play.

34 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Well, really Monk shouldn't be compared to any of those others as his prime was in the 80s and their primes were in the 90s (except Harrison, of course) when passing dramatically increased. Carter was in a sense the evolution of Monk as the big, physical, move-the-chains possession receiver. Also, [gets on his soapbox] Monk was used in a base 3-WR set as a blocker in an offense without a true TE, which makes him more similar to guys like Shannon Sharpe, Tony Gonzalez, Antonio Gates, and Dallas Clark than to any modern WR.

36 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

With Carter, it wasn't just the number of catches (two seasons with 122) or touchdowns... it was the spectacular catches, the one-handed grabs, the sideline toe tap while falling out of bounds things that I would have thought would have made him a slam dunk.

40 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

He is a slam dunk. So is Tim Brown. I don't think Andre Reed is, but I'm not going to argue about it because I don't think it's that big of a deal and because it has nothing to do with the point I'm about to make.

They'd all be in the HOF but the voters have a really stupid unofficial rule: except for QB, they don't vote multiple guys at the same position in on the same ballot.* I may have missed a ballot, but only once in the last 20 years have two guys from the same non-QB position gone in together, in 2001.

*Veterans committee inductees excluded

95 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

From what I've heard of the process... there is probably a bloc of voters determined to establish that Carter is the best of the 3 and won't vote for Brown or Reed until Carter is in first. And there is probably another bloc that is determined to establish that Brown is better, and likewise won't vote for the other 2... and maybe a third bloc doing the same for Reed.

Thus, like the 3 stooges, none will get in.

Perhaps Doleman got in as a kind of peace offering to the vikings writers to get Brown in next year, dunno. I read a story about how Jack Youngblood got kept out by writers determined to get Carl Eller in before him and somehow a deal was worked out to finally get Ron Yary in to end the opposition to Youngblood. And Eller got in a few years later.

106 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

This wouldn't surprise me -- logjams like this can be tough to break. There was also a big logjam of pass rushing DLs/LBs a few years ago, but once Andre Tippett and Fred Dean were elected in 2008, others fell in line: Derrick Thomas and Bruce Smith in 2009, John Randle and Rickey Jackson in 2010, Richard Dent in 2011, and Chris Doleman this year. It's time for the voters to cut a few back-door deals and usher in one a year -- compromise can be a good thing.

103 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

As a Bears fan, I also can think of lots of big plays by Carter, and the first one that comes to mind is the overtime TD that you mentioned in that Thursday night game. I distinctly remember watching that game with a friend/colleague who, like me, is a huge Bears fan. After the game, we unhappily went back to work across the street. I will never forget how he he angrily kicked the wall inside the elevator as we rode up to our office.

I think he belongs in the HOF, as do several others who didn't make the cut this year.

163 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Starting Quarterbacks Marvin Harrison has had:

Jim Harbaugh
Peyton Manning.

Starting Quarterbacks Cris Carter has had:

Randall Cunningham
Rich Gannon
Wade Wilson
Sean Salisbury
Jim McMahon
Warren Moon
Brad Johnson
Jeff George
Daunte Culpepper
Jay Fiedler.

And that's not counting guys who only started a couple games like Todd Bouman or Spergon Wynn (Peyton of course never missed a start until now).

230 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Jerry Rice.
Michael Irvin.
Terrell Owens.
Randy Moss.
Marvin Harrison.
Torry Holt.
Isaac Bruce.
Paul Warfield.
Lance Alworth.
Fred Biletnikoff.

Now, if I had to choose one HOF-finalist-or-better WR and I positively needed a completion but wasn't much interested in a first down, THEN I might pick Carter. As evidence for my position, I present Carter's weak DVOA relative to the Rice/Irvin top tier of his heyday.

6 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Looking at Martin and Bettis... if you strip Martin of all his receiving value you have Bettis. It's pretty jarring how nearly identical their career rushing stats are:

Martin: 3518 carries, 14101 yards, 90 TD
Bettis: 3479 carries, 13662 yards, 91 TD

Not sure if DVOA bears out that Martin was a better runner too, wouldn't be surprised to find out Martin's success rate was higher. Kudos to the HOF committee for recognizing Martin was better, I guess.

9 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Martin: 3518 carries, 14 101 yards, 90 TD, 29 fumbles (4.01 ypc)
Bettis: 3479 carries, 13 662 yards, 91 TD, 41 fumbles (3.93 ypc)

I don't know of anyplace where I can split those out so it's just rushing fumbles, but those are a big part of their rushing statistics.

15 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Martin: 404 Rec, 3329 Yards, 10 TD (6.9 YPC)
Bettis: 200 Rec, 1449 Yards, 3 TD (7.2 YPC)

Neither would be mistaken for Marshall Faulk, Martin was a legitimate receiver at tailback.

The other thing is that Curtis Martin remains one of the single most consistent RBs I've ever seen. I wish someone would calculate a gini coefficient for RBs; I suspect that Martin is one of the all-time greats in terms of moving the chains and churning out drive-sustaining yards. The only player I've ever seen better at it was friggin' Emmitt Smith, cursed be his name.

43 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

If you strip Martin of his receiving value, you're talking away 3,300+ yards of production, which is nearly 2000 more receiving yards than Bettis had. Nowhere near Marshall Faulk, admittedly. Faulk was the league MVP in 2000 and Martin was never at that level.
Bettis got a lot more press because he won a ring with the Steelers. But it seems like the numbers favor Martin. I think Bettis should eventually get in.

48 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Neither of them really belong. Faulk is one of the greatest of all time at the position, and Tomlinson's an absolute all time great as well. That should be it for the Noughties - the age of the running back is dead, so for heaven's sake no more overempthasis.

56 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Good post Jerry. C. Martin no doubter hall of fsmer in my book. Excellent all round back. Very high scrimmage yardage per game avetage--- top ten all time pretty sure. Gerat at protectig QBs on blitz pickup. Maybe best evrrr after M. Allen in that area of running back tasks. Also Martin hands of sasquatch. Very rarely ever fumble. Think has best fumble rate all time. Guyy was first team Football Writees and Sproting News all Pro 2001and AP 2nd team . In 2004 swept first tema all over. So had two first team all pro years meaning guy was #1 or #2 RB in two ssasons. Also had 8 other 1,000 uard rush seaosns.

Again Martiin not simpsom, failk, van buren, brown or b. Sanders but definitely belog in hall of fame. Martin better than sveeralother hall of fame RBs.

7 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

They used all six spots and ushered in some well-deserving linemen; the Hall definitely needed more of those guys. Against that, some well-deserving candidates (like Parcells) didn't get in. That's a more-than-acceptable tradeoff to me, given that it seems very unlikely to me that Parcells will have to wait past the next class or two.

I view this not as a snub to Parcells but as a long-overdue acknowledgement of some of the best guys in the trenches to ever play.

18 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I may be in the minority here, but I'm really glad Haley didn't get in. I think his Super Bowl rings are really his only distinguishing characteristic; I thought Doleman & Kennedy were significantly better than he was, and am glad they got in ahead of him.

70 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Haley is one of the most disruptive linemen I've ever seen. It isn't just the rings, it's that he was a huge factor in winning them; if he never leaves San Francisco then I doubt the Cowboys win all three of their titles and the niners probably would have had another one or two.

Though he was a bit of an arse off the field, which is probably holding him back.

11 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I think we have to remember this is football, not baseball. Only FIVE modern guys can get in, plus 0, 1, or 2 senior candidates. I think the HOF would be better served going to six modern guys & max 1 senior.
IMO, Parcells will get in soon enough, Bettis probably will, & Shields, Cris Carter, and some other guys too. For me, that's the problem. We can talk about snubs (Jason Whitlock was aghast that Roaf wasn't elected last year), but they did elect 5 guys. It's not like they had 4, and said "Nope, Parcells just isn't good enough, so only 4 guys this year."
[If somebody could do the research, it would be interesting to look back through the last few years and see how many finalists of class X EVENTUALLY made the HOF. I would bet that there are 8-10 guys from some years. In other words, some guys just had to wait their "turn" because there were too many HOF's for the 5 slots.]

13 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

The max they can bring in any year is 7. They need to start to bring in the max for the next several years to catch up on the backlog of players they have before them. When the HOF started in 63 there were fewer teams and fewer players that were on those rosters. Now in the modern era with 32 teams with max rosters of 53 your're talking about 1600 players a year. They need to adjust the rules on selection to make up for the backlog due to expansion and should exclude coaches and contributors from the count. Let them be their own group.
This is the only way to be fair to the players that deserve to be in the Hall.

74 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I'm not sure that's really the best way to go about things. It's generally agreed upon that the Hall of Fame is the highest achievement one can earn in just about every major sport in America. But in my opinion we need to keep it sacred, and not just elect players every year because we need to fill it up. I'm not saying there aren't many players who we can and need to elect into the Hall, but I don't want to fill it up just because we're scared they will be forgotten. Maybe another fair way would be to expand the number of players the senior committee can put into the Hall. I don't know what their jurisdiction is, like how long ago the players had to have played to be voted in by the seniors, but maybe we should allow them to vote in players from anywhere more than 25 years ago so that they could put in those players that might be left behind because of all the new players that might be eligible soon.

17 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Look at his record with the expansion Jacksonville Jaguars, and compare it with their record since he was fired; then combine it with a winning record with the Giants, and 1-2 Super Bowl wins.

until Bill Parcells goes in there's no point in talking about any other coach as a HOF candidate except Bill Belichick.

I think Mike Holmgren as a coach, and Bill Polian & Ron Wolf as GMs, are in the same conversation as Parcells when it comes to non-players.

21 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Ok. I combined the Jags years with the Super Bowl runs. You mean that should do it??
Those Jags years are impressive, but let's not pretend that this was like the Texans expansion.
The Texans made it look so hard because they elected to play without an offensive line in front of their rookie QB.
Then he took a team to the Super Bowl. Twice.
Is that it?
I know some other coaches that did that.

64 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

"Then he took a team to the Super Bowl. Twice.
Is that it?
I know some other coaches that did that."

How many of them are not in the HoF?

"Those Jags years are impressive, but let's not pretend that this was like the Texans expansion.
The Texans made it look so hard because they elected to play without an offensive line in front of their rookie QB."

That might have something to do with the head coaches.

66 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Coaches with multiple Super Bowls:

Shula 2-4 HOF
Landry 2-3 HOF
Gibbs 3-1 HOF
Grant 0-4 HOF
Levy 0-4 HOF
Noll 4-0 HOF
Reeves 0-4 HOF
Holmgren 1-2
Parcells 2-1
Walsh 3-0 HOF
Cowher 1-1
Flores 2-0
J. Johnson 2-0 HOF
Lombardi 2-0 (and 3 other NFL championships) HOF
Seifert 2-0
Stram 1-1 HOF
Vermeil 1-1

ACTIVE (does not include XLVI):

Belichick 3-1
Shanahan 2-0
Tomlin 1-1

And Coughlin will join the list Sunday.

97 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I know this is a small sample-size proposition, but I think the mark of a great coach is a guy who led a team to upsets in the playoffs, especially on the road. That is hard to do -- take a take perceived as worse, or even much worse, than the opponent, in a high-pressure moment like a playoff game, and pull of a win. By this standard, Coughlin is very impressive:
* Huge upset of Denver on the road in the 1996 playoffs -- that Denver team was really, really good, and the Jaguars were in YEAR TWO of existing.
* Beating Packers on the road in 2007 (and the road playoff wins before it)
* Beating an undefeated team in the Super Bowl afterwords
* Beating the 15-1 Packers and a very good 49ers team (road game on the other coast)

To me, that is impressive as hell. Add a Super Bowl win this year, and if I were on the committee, I would vote for Coughlin for the Hall. I'd put him in before I'd put in Holmgren, Cowher, or Dungy.

100 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Devils advocate: a HOF coach wouldn't be an underdog on the road enough to have a bunch of those games on his resume, his teams would be at home and favored. To start a career, that's one thing (Jacksonville) but you can also ask "if Coughlin's such a great coach, why wasn't he more successful in NY save for 2007 and 2011?"

101 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

That's a very good point, and I've thought it, too, in the context of Coughlin. But maybe it also speaks to an overall approach that looks at the season strategically with the idea of getting his team in fighting shape by year's end. (I don't really think this is the case, or is even possible, as I'm sure Coughlin's approach, like any coach's, would be to work like hell to win every single game.) But maybe there's something to the way he manages his team over the course of a season to get them to be at their best in December and January.

But I take your point, yeah. It's kind of like the myth of the "4th-quarter QB," often a stat cited to indicate a passer's greatness. But of course if the passer is so great, why is he behind so often in the 4th in the first place?

Still and all, the fact that, subjectively, to me, Coughlin's teams rarely look flat or uprepared in the playoffs is evidence of some very good coaching.

113 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

That's an approach Belichick uses, he's always telling his players that the goal is to get in a position to make a run starting on Thanksgiving. And if Coughlin had a track record of strong late finishes, then I could buy that. Especially if he was coaching a team like the Bengals or Cardinals where the owner handicaps you. But that's not the case with Coughlin. Look at his record in December/January for the regular season in NY (I'll give 2004 a pass since they threw in the towel and wanted to give Eli starts):

2005: 4-1
2006: 2-3
2007: 3-2
2008: 1-3
2009: 2-3
2010: 3-2
2011: 3-2

That's not impressive. Let's compare to the guy he's coaching against tonight, since he's definitely a HOFer:

2005: 4-1
2006: 4-1
2007: 5-0
2008: 4-0
2009: 3-2
2010: 4-0
2011: 5-0

Plus 2007 and 2011 are the only years he hasn't been one and done in the playoffs in NY. His record in Jacksonville is very good, but his record in NY is inconsistent. He's a good coach no doubt, but the HOF argument for him will be thin.

24 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I think Martin getting in is absurd. Shouldn't we reserve the Hall of Fame for the most outstanding players of each position in their time? Can we really say that Martin was among the Top 5 running backs while he was active? To me he looks more like a workhorse back in a unidimensional, underachieving team. Much like what Jones-Drew is now. Not game-changing running backs, not paradigm-shifting running backs, not dominating running backs, just running backs that got to have more touches.

And it's not like they put Sanders/Dickerson/Smith numbers either. Martin had just 4 season with over 10 rushing TDs. Only six seasons with more than 4 YPC. Compare that to what Priest Holmes was doing at the time. Or Tomlinson. Or Alexander. This, to me, looks more like an award to consistency. "Be consistent, mediocre, but consistently mediocre and you'll get in".

Meanwhile, Brazille, the LT before LT, is still out. Carter, one of the deadliest WRs in the red zone of all time is out.

What is the Hall of Fame rewarding? Shouldn't it be "excellence"?

And I'm saying this as a Patriots fan and knowing that there are several players in the Hall that have nothing to do there (Swann, Hornung).

27 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Pates fan hatig on playeer who left team to play for rival Jets? Mayeb not right person if want unbias comment.

Martin not top tier HoF rb but definifly belong. Not in E..Smith, Faulk, Simpson class. More in Leroy Kelly, McElhenny (gerat for spell especially when leadung legaue in rushing 1954 midway through season then got injured and out for rest of season)), T. Thomas, F. harris second tier if break down HoF rbs into two tiers..

Martin better all around back than s. Alexander and not even debatable so.won't debate it.

C. Carter should eb in. Agree there. Guy gwrat possessiion receiver.

30 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I'm not on the Curtis Martin-hate waggon. I understand what he did. Kind of what Hutchinson did with the Seahawks. They have little time to make as much money as possible before age and injuries of times past start to catch on with them. No hard feelings.

32 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Martin definitely benefited from being in New York. If he had the same career but with, say, the Bengals or the Chargers, I'm not sure he gets in. The guy was damn good, but I don't think he's a HOFer either.


They really need to release who voted for who. All HOFs do. I'd like to know which idiot isn't voting for Tim Brown and Cris Carter because he can't separate the two rather than, you know, vote for both of them.

41 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Sure, Martin was not a top 5 back while he was active. However, he took the slow but steady approach. 10-1000yard season avg 84 yards a game. Though he may not had 2k rushing season or multiple record setting season, Martin was steady and reliable. Which in the end, he was above average skilled player, not elite, that you count on for 1281 yards each year. Yet, Martin ended up, in the final totals, statistical as an elite, not above average RB. Goes to show you, that being consistent is a path to become elite in the end. Hence in this case, consistency means the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

170 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Above Average

I'm still undecided in the Curtis Martin debate, but I can say that truly the worst (but, sadly, among the most common) argument used in a Hall of Fame debate is the "It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Above Average" one (more frequently phrased as "not the Hall of Very Good"). "Fame" does not occupy the top spot on the linear scale that includes descriptors like "above average" or "very good". We could argue about what does occupy that spot-- Really good? Excellent? Awesome?-- but whatever it is, it's not a synonym for "Fame" or "Famous".

195 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Led the league in rushing before, so you cant say he wasn't top 5 ever during his whole career.

He was a really good player that had 10 straight 1,000 yard seasons. Only second player ever to do it (Barry Sanders). Rookie of the year. He was extremely underrated while playing. I don't really get the hate, if you watched football during that era, he was a beast player.

Bill Parcells will get into the Hall in the next couple of years. Chris Carter ought to get in at some point. Tim Brown as well. They just want to make them wait.

I really hate that the local beat writers and other media members gets the honor to vote for the players. Most of them never watched all the games of the other teams during their beat for the home team. Tony Grossi (currently disgraced former Browns beat writer) said before he was demoted (and lost his HOF vote) that he didn't watch the other games in the NFL as "They were too depressing to watch."

He had a HOF vote and only watched Browns games. That is horrible. He isn't the only one either.

I have the Direct Ticket and four big screens and try and watch every game as much as possible and I can tell you that my friends who only watch the Browns and highlights have no idea who on other teams are actually really good and who is overrated.

Ex: Educated Sports fan who now only watchs local team ue to kids and wife duties, "Browns shouldn't sign Mario Williams for 4-3 DE, he isn't that great, above average. They should get Elvis Dumerville, he is a beast."

I will let you make your conclusions.

“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.”
-Albert Einstein

"Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers"

45 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Martin beats Holmes by any measure. Longer career, better peak year, 6000 more total yards. Holmes basically had a three year career as an elite player.

Tomlinson will be in the Hall eventually. He doesn't yet have Martin's career total in rushing yards, but his peak was better.

Nobody in the past ten years has had Dickerson/Smith/Sanders numbers.

No, Martin didn't score as many TDs as some RBs. I've long thought TD was an overrated stat for RBs. Emmitt Smith got a ton of TDs because the Cowboys would use all of their weapons to move down the field, and then every single time* they would use Smith to score the TD. So he got twice as many TDs/season as anybody else. That didn't mean he was twice as good.

Curtis Martin is 4th on the all-time rushing list. He's in. His peak years weren't as high as some RBs, but he had amazing durability for a running back.

I'm still annoyed with the Pats for letting him go basically because they thought it would be easy to replace him. Aside from one year of Corey Dillon, they haven't gotten that kind of production from any running back since.

*Yes, I'm exaggerating for effect.

59 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I'm still annoyed with the Pats for letting him go basically because they thought it would be easy to replace him. Aside from one year of Corey Dillon, they haven't gotten that kind of production from any running back since.

It's not like they've missed him. What would they have done with Martin? Played in six Super Bowls instead of five?

To put another way, they didn't replace Martin with another runner. They replaced him with guys like Wilfork and Mayo and Hernandez and Chung and Mankins and Light. And they're better for it.

86 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I guess 'need' would depend on how Martin would have been utilized by Belichick, and if as a four down back (probably), how valuable having your 3rd down back (Faulk) also be your 1st and 2nd down back (Smith, Dillon, Maroney, BJG) would be.

Personally, I think a lot. As great as Faulk and Dillion were in their assignments, defenses still knew what was coming when they entered the game. A guy like Martin would have disguised the offense's play-call better.

76 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

"This, to me, looks more like an award to consistency. "Be consistent, mediocre, but consistently mediocre and you'll get in""

That's not a fair assessment of Martin. As much as I agree that he was rarely a top three, or even five, back in the league, his career was hardly what should be described as mediocre. One league award (offensive rookie) and one 1st team allpro are what they are, but 10/11 years with 1000+ and 4 years of 1500~ yards is nothing to sneeze at. He was consistently a very good back, which is to say, he was much better than mediocre.

That said, I don't think he should have been enshrined either, but I do prefer his qualifications to say, Campbell's.

81 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

You afe mistaken. Martun first team all pro 2001 and 2004. Associated Press not only award selectors. Ass Press aqards considered more prestigious. Thag just becauss they advertse better. Football writers of america and the sportig News are no less "official" and their all-pro tesms actually better. Anyway maetin fiest team FWA amd TSN 2001 and second team Ass Press. Overall that make him fiest teamer and csn even see that in NFL's offical record book 2002.

26 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Weird on Parcells not getting in. Really weird.

Could it be that Parcells' reputation has been a bit of a casualty of Belichick's success? I think Parcells' coaching record without Belichick as a coordinator/assistant head coach is actually a bit under .500.

To be clear, I don't put any stock in that at all. Parcells' coaching record speaks for itself, and should make him a HoFer. I'm just looking for explanations.

Another, simpler explanation is that people don't like him, which I can certainly believe.

29 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I'm pretty shocked Parcells didn't get in. If he's not a first ballot HoFer, then I guess practically no coach is. All he did is build a formidable team and win a SB, and then go travelling and take whatever crap team he went to and get them deep into the playoffs within a year. You may not like him, but he's easily in the top 5 of coaches I've seen in my lifetime (the only guys I would put ahead of him automatically would be Walsh, Belichick, and maybe Levy...maybe a couple of others if I debated on it, but certainly not many).

I'm really happy Martin did get in. Classy guy, exceptional back. If he's played on a team that had consistent offensive performers around him, we'd be talking about him as an all time great.

To the Patriots fan above who was poo-pooing Martin...I wonder how long you were a Patriots fan? Prior to Curtis Martin, the Patriots had a long string of painful backs who wouldn't know a hole if they fell in it, and coundn't make a cut with a butcher knife. I was ENVIOUS of teams that had backs that averaged 3 ypc. And then Martin appeared, with the same linemen, and all of a sudden the Pats had a running game! I don't hold it against him that he left and followed Parcells to New York...that's more on Pete Carroll and company. I'm still angry at Carroll over Martin (and many other things). He mis-used Martin, almost managed to hose his career, pissed him off, and then let him get away in free agency. And the Pats would wait until Belichick brought Corey Dillon over from Cincy before they had a decent running back again.

31 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Yes, the Patriots had a bad string of RBs and the first really promising one was Martin (actually Edwards was the first, but he almost got his leg amputed after his rookie season). And yes, he was an upgrade over the rest.

But that doesn't change the fact that he was just above-average, or at best, very good at some points in his career. Not a top RB. Not someone one would watch film of 10 years from now and say "Wow! This guy must have OWNED during his time". That's the point I raised: what is Hall-of-Fame material? Shouldn't it be the trully extrordinary players, the ones we will remember from years on, as LEAGUE fans, not X-team fans?

46 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Martin came before Edwards. Edwards was drafted to replace Martin in 1998, had an excellent rrookie season.

Curtis Martin was always a top RB. He gained over 1000 yards ten years in a row!! No, he wasn't at the Sanders/Dickerson level in terms of power or flash. But he was productive at a high level for a very long time.

33 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I really don't care much about HOF, but I will say that I never, not one day, thought that Curtis Martin was a Hall of Fame running back when I watched him for all those years. I don't begrudge him getting in, and, frankly, after I type this, won't give it a second thought, but I was really surprised to see him get in so quickly.
Parcells, you would think, should've been a fairly easy choice, but I can't help but wonder that the fact he's behaved liked a prick for decades to the press (unless he needs a job, then he's happy as a clam to put on the blazer) didn't affect his chances some. He'll certainly get in, but he may have to wait a few years. Doesn't he just have one Super Bowl win, anyway? Improving a team and then jumping ship doesn't always look great to some, either.
I just wish that Cris Carter would get in so I didn't have to hear about it anymore. At this point I have to assume it is all an elaborate rib at his expense.
I agree it's good that more offensive linemen are getting in, as there are few positions more overlooked by voters/fans than those guys.

108 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

More or less my thoughts. I have no idea how someone can think Martin is worthy of special mention compared to all the other candidates from that era. 5 guys get in a year, I ma not sure Martin would have been in my top 25 players any year of his career.

I am always saddened by how much extra hype QBs and RBs get for the HoF. It is so bad that IMHO it just doesn't mean anything.

It is always interesting to listen to people talk about it, but that is about it. Whether a guy gets in or not means nothing to me because the process is so clearly broken.

118 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

"More or less my thoughts. I have no idea how someone can think Martin is worthy of special mention compared to all the other candidates from that era. 5 guys get in a year, I ma not sure Martin would have been in my top 25 players any year of his career."

I completely agree. Admittedly, I didn't watch him play very often, but whenever I did watch his games, I never thought I was watching an all-time great. He seemed to me to be nothing more than a good, solid player. While it may be hard for fans to determine greatness for players at many positions, it is easy to spot greatness for running backs. When I think of great running backs I have seen play over the years, I immediately think of Walter Payton, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson, Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders and LaDainian Tomlinson. I don't think of Curtis Martin at all.

135 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

When I first started watching football circa 1984, Hall of Famer John Riggins was one of the big name running backs having just won Washington the Super Bowl with his 166yds and 4th quarter 4th&1 TD.

Look at his seasonal stats and he had only five 1,000 yard seasons. His career is decidedly unspectacular ... http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.aspx?PlayerId=180&tab=Stats However in the context of his day I seem to recall that he was the 7th RB to accumulate 10,000yds rushing - a number that Earl Campbell didn't manage.

Martin finishing so high up the rushing yardage list is a testament to longevity at a position that takes a lot of hits that can see a player fall away. Compare his numbers to some of the "great" running backs from this past decade - Shaun Alexander 9,400 ... Jamal Lewis 10,400 ... Priest Holmes 8,400 ... Corey Dillon 11,200 ...

At 14,101 yds and ten consecutive 1,000yd seasons I think Curtis Martin does deserve a place in the HoF.

154 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

2 comments: First, I'm a Redskins fan and I will tell you the only reason Riggins is in the HOF is because of his playoff performances. His regular season stats are simply not HOF worthy. Second, while I generally don't approve of putting plodders who have longevity but not dominance in the HOF at any position, I make an exception for Martin because longevity at the RB position is so rare. Look at the guys you mention- Alexander, Holmes, Lewis, Dillon, none of them lasted as long as him.

42 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Overall, I like this year's selections. I think Martin is the most debatable, especially with Carter (and others) still waiting, but it really doesn't surprise me. Many of the voters are stuck in this '70s/'80s mentality that the key to winning championships is to have a workhorse RB. These guys see the big numbers put up by recent WRs as being the product of offensive gimmickry, or as some kind of fad.

As for Parcells, I was surprised he didn't get in, but it really doesn't bother me. In general, I would prefer to see more deserving players get in at the expense of coaches.

63 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

There has never been a non-quarterback player as valuable as Parcells.

I couldn't disagree more. I would say there have been dozens of players (maybe hundreds) who have been more valuable than any coach. One obvious example is Lawrence Taylor, without whom Parcells never really came close to winning a Super Bowl. (The year with the Patriots, he came through a very weak AFC and then got drilled by a far superior team).

Does anyone really believe that the Giants of the late '80s and early '90s would have been better off with Parcells and a replacement level OLB than with Taylor and a replacement level HC?

68 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

And why would the Giants have a replacement level OLB? You don't think Parcells could find a linebacker better than replacement level?

That's certainly possible. But it's equally possible that the Giants could have found another head coach better than replacement level. My point is that the gap between LT and the next best available linebacker was probably far greater than the gap between Parcells and the next best available head coach.

85 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

You might be right that LT was more valuable than Parcells to those Giants teams, but stating that Parcells didn't "come close" to winning a Super Bowl without LT in a pretty gross exaggeration. If advancing to the Super Bowl isn't "close" to winning it in the context of a career, then what is? Do you have to lose a lead in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl in order to come "close" to winning it without actually doing so? Advancing to a conference championship game and a Super Bowl with two separate teams is pretty strong evidence that he was more than capable of winning at a very high level without LT.

168 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I don't think it makes much sense to try to compare the relative values of coaches and players (although it's precisely what HoF voters are asked to do) ... it seems to me that by this statement, you value some things differently than I would.

For example, I would suggest, say, Jim Brown and Barry Sanders as examples of non-QBs more valuable than Parcells. You've been here long enough that you're obviously familiar with them, so you apparently feel otherwise. From there, all we can do is talk about "I feel this" and "I believe that."

Football is a long, long way from being able to assign value to individual players in a meaningful way, despite things like p-f-r's Approximate Value (which is built largely on results of individual plays that are sorted out among players), and I know of no metrics that try to compare the two.

To your last point, I wonder if it would make more sense to consider non-players separately from players by reserving an additional spot for them ... or if there simply aren't enough non-players valuable enough to make this an issue. Parcells will get in eventually. Other similar people will get in eventually. For now, there may be a couple more years where at least one deserving candidate doesn't get in because there's no room. (Hey, it could be baseball, where the Veterans' Committee is electing "my best friend from this 1955 road trip" and "this one guy who sold me a really good car" while deserving candidates have to sit through 2-4 elections to get in.)

44 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I'm shocked Carter wasn't elected. And I'm a Packers fan. Carter always got exactly what was needed for a first down. I don't think they keep first down stats, but for years they mentioned during games almost all his catches were for either first downs or TDs. He wasn't the guy who caught the ball and then ran for yards. But he ran great routes, caught more TDs than anyone not named Jerry Rice, and didn't have a HoF QB for most of his career. Not sure who I would have picked to leave out. They are all good entries. But Carter was death by a thousand paper cuts. He didn't have 80 yard TDs. He would beat you just the same.

47 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I don't understand what the issue is with Carter. Looking at his stats, it seems like it too him quite a few years to reach a top level. He only had 5 receptions as a rookie and then hada 5 years of sub-1000 yards receiving (only one of which was close to 1000 yards). But then he had at least 1000 yards receiving for eight years in a row.
I'd be interested to hear an explanation from somebody why he continues to be snubbed.

109 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Carter's in a logjam with Andre Reed and Tim Brown. And the primary knock on Carter (though it's not a HoF deal-breaker, and I think he'll be elected eventually) is his low yards-per-catch, which puts him in a possession receiver category with guys like Fred Biletnikoff, Charlie Joiner, and Art Monk, none of whom were elected quickly. Carter's waiting actually isn't that unusual, as the HoF voters don't seem to like WRs (or safeties) much.

53 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

C. Carrter keep gettinf snubbed due to low avergae per cstch #. Is same reason why a monk waited and heavy artillery harrison will not get in immediately

93 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I don't find Carter and Monk that similar. Carter was unquestionably the best receiver on the team for a good chunck of his career in Minnesota. Before him they had Anthony Carter, brief overlap and it quickly became apparent CC was better. And that lasted even until they drafted Randy Moss.

With Monk, I almost always felt on any given season that he wasn't the primary receiving threat, between Gary Clark or Charlie Brown or Sanders etc... yeah he lasted past all of them but I think on most years someone else had better receiving stats..

And heck, even with Randy Moss becoming better than carter (which I hold happening partway through the 98 season but even that year Carter had better reception and yardage totals iirc... I think it adds to CC's credentials that he was Randy's mentor when he arrived, and was able to help explode out of the gate...

57 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

If bored someone could lookbit up but think this firsy Hall of Game class where all the enshrinees combined to win zero NFL championshups. So this class really shows the electorsbwerebnot swayed by the rings syuff this year. Other times lots of timesbsee peoole in mwdia or forum say or write stuff like "guy won 2 rings so should gey in". Problem witj thsy thonking is football tema sport but hall if fame is individual honor.

82 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Darn. Sorry for error. Migjt not be bad idea tjough. No fame guys (t. Sestak, b. Dillon, v. Lewellen, L..Dilweg) could make Hall of Game and oveerrated famous guys like Hornung and A. Wojciechowicz (fampus for being a Fordham block of Granite with V. Lombardi) could stay im Hall of Fame.

Also, if like rap music "Hall of Game" by E-40 and 2Pac pretty good song. Not gerat. "Sprinkle me" and "Dusted 'n Disgusted" E-40's two best spngs probaly. "Hall of Game" like Danny White of E-40 songs. Other two noted like roger Syaubach and T. aikman of E-40 songs

61 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I guess to most people the biggest snub was Parcells.

Can someone tell me if the HOF changed the waiting period for coaches recently, because Shula, Landry, Lombardi and Noll waited just 2 years. Is it because of their incredible stature that they were waived in early?

Anyway, other than those guys and Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs and Week Ewbank, no coach appears to have made it on the first ballot in the Super Bowl era.

Other than Ewbank, I would think that all of those other first ballot coaches have a stronger resume than Parcells. Even Ewbank won three NFL titles. Honestly, I think to be a first ballot HOF you have to be on the short list of the greatest of all time if you are a coach, and I don't consider Parcells to be that.

67 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I think it changed officially at one point. I'm pretty sure that Parcells didn't get in during his first retirement because he was expected to return to coaching, and they went to the five-year rule to remove that controversy (Joe Gibbs aside). Cowher's been out for five years now, but I don't expect him to be considered seriously until it's clear that he's not coming back.

89 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Cowher's not going to be seriously considered anyway. His career is not notably long and he accomplished nothing spectacular. If you don't think winning one Super Bowl is a total game changer, Andy Reid has had pretty near the same career. Cowher's a charismatic and likeable guy, but I think the further we get from actually watching him coach and the more we rely on the numbers, the less impressive his resume looks. He's going to need to get back into the game and have some more notable success to get serious HOF consideration.

98 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Cowher has better numbers when he left than Parcells did at his first retirement. A .623 career winning percentage over 15 seasons is no mean accomplishment. Cowher's record of 149-90-1 is better than Parcells' after 15 seasons (138-100-1). He could comeback and coach four 8-8 seasons and still have a better winning percentage than Parcells.

Andy Reid will have pretty nearly the same career if he coaches two more years 12-4 and 13-3 and wins a super bowl.

Look I hate the Steelers, and I couldn't stand watching Cowher spit everywhere on the sideline, but that doesn't mean I don't think he was a great football coach.

102 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Cowher will be serious considered once the voters (most of them, anyway) are convinced that he's done coaching. Winning as consistently as he did with the amount of turnover the Steelers had will get him serious consideration. What would his chances be if he didn't have a ring? Probably pretty iffy, but that's how it goes. If Reid gets a ring (or at least takes the Eagles to another SB), he has an excellent shot, too. If Marty Schottenheimer had a ring (or at least a SB appearance or two) on his resume, he'd be a likely HoFer.

One more thing on Cowher, I actually think he'd be better off staying retired from coaching. Returning just opens the door to the possibility of having a George Seifert, Tom Flores or (so far) Mike Shannahan (or, to a lesser extent, Jimmy Johnson)-type second act, which would obviously hurt his HoF chances.

112 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Actually, I think there's a coaching logjam in the making coming up. Bill Cowher, Mike Shanahan, Mike Holmgren, Tony Dungy, and Dick Vermiel all have similar lifetime W-L stats and postseason success (and will all be seen as being behind Bill Belichick), and it wouldn't surprise me if many of them wait a long time if they're ever elected. Dungy's having the best lifetime winning percentage of this bunch, his being the first coach of color to win a Super Bowl, and his being named to the All-00s Decade Team probably sets him apart from this pack, though, behind Belichick in 2nd place.

223 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

W-L-T, win %, Super Bowls won for all:

Cowher: 149-90-1, .623, 1 SB won
Dungy: 139-69, .668, 1 SB won
Holmgren: 161-111-0, .592, 1 SB won
Shanahan: 157-119-0, .569, 2 SB won
Vermeil: 120-109-0, .524, 1 SB won

And just for a reference point:

Belichick: 175-97-0, .643, 3 SB won
Coughlin: 142-114-0, .555, 2 SB won

No question Belichick is the class of this group. Coughlin is pretty much comparable to the rest right now, especially similar to Shanahan, and both he and Belichick in theory have more "in the tank" than Shanahan, the only one of the top five folks still active.

Vermeil is just a shade under the rest, but he's not as far off as one might think. Like I said -- logjam in the making. And if Coughlin were to retire tomorrow, he'd be part of that group. Fortunately for him, he's got more time ahead of him.

224 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Belichick, while clearly extremely talented, is known to have been directly responsible for one of the worst cheating scandals in NFL history. Even if all of his wins were legitimate it's still an order of magnitude worse than anything Pete Rose did. I doubt he gets in, but maybe I'm just being optimistic.

225 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

You are being ridiculously optimistic. Belichick is getting in 1st ballot. Even if his cheating had substantial effects in leading the Pats to three Super Bowl titles, he did not do anything close to betting on the sport he was coaching like Rose. There is a reason why Rose was banned (and some argue that he should still get into the HOF - but I guess that's because his transgression occurred after his playing career). Belichick was fined a lot, but he's going to have about a 2-minute deliberation in that HOF voting room.

227 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I think you're both being rediculously optimistic in your own way.

To suggest that Belichick cheating will somehow be ignored by the selection committee is every bit as naive as the idea that it will cause an automatic blackballing.

It'll be considered. He may overcome it. He may not.

As far as the first ballot, that means nothing. He's not going to get a different color jacket if it takes more than one year.

187 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I think the knock on Dungy's candidacy would be Peyton Manning and Bill Polian. For me, they're the only no-brainer Hall of Famers from the Noughties Colts, and Dungy's in a second tier of guys I would consider maybes with Freeney (probably the most deserving of the rest) and Harrison, just ahead of the really marginal candidates like Wayne, Saturday and James.

215 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

But most coaches - or at least most Hall of Fame coaches - have a lot more to do with the acquisition of those players. All those guys were already on the roster when Dungy arrived. Belichick built the Patriots essentially from scratch, and oversaw a massive rebuild on the fly without ever having a non-winning season. Holmgren brought Hasselbeck and Alexander and Hutchinson to Seattle (though he did inherit Jones). Shanahan may have inherited his Superbowl teams, but he was certainly responsible for the personnel on the very good Jake Plummer sides, and set up an offensive juggernaut that should have lasted for years if McDaniels hadn't blown it up.

Also, there are very good players, and then there is Peyton Manning. I'm not sure how favourably we should look on only reaching one Superbowl in seven years of Manning's prime, as a coaching accomplishment.

194 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I think Harrison is a lock. It might take a while (just like it is for Carter). I think Dungy will get in because of his innovation with Kiffin in Tampa, and winning in two historically poor locations (Tampa, Indy - yeah, Peyton helped, a lot). He has a winning percentage above .66 (which is really rare), and I really hope this comes across right, but the fact that he was the first African-American coach to win a Super Bowl, as well as a coach who is respected the way he is, makes me think he will definitely get it.

216 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

A fair point, and undoubtedly one of the reasons why he will in fact get in.

Again, I'm talking about who I would like to see in, not who will get in. Personally, I don't give a crap (for Hall of Fame purposes) about anything other than how good they were at their football jobs. Cure cancer? Serial child murderer? Makes no odds to me. And truthfully, being both young(ish) and English, the race factor probably just doesn't have the same emotional resonance for me. I'm aware of the history, of course, but it really isn't my history, and doesn't have much bearing on my experience.

111 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Yes, they did change the eligiblity for coaches a couple years ago. They used to be eligible immediately upon retirement, but now coaches have to wait five years before becoming eligible, same as players. And with his "will he/won't he retire" career, Parcells is arguably the primary reason for the change.

62 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I'm not saying this is the only way to rank RBs, but among retired* running backs, here are the top 12 all-time in rushing yds/game.

1. Jim Brown 104.3
2. Barry Sanders 99.8
3. Terrell Davis 97.5
4. Eric Dickerson 90.8
5. Walter Payton 88.0
6. Clinton Portis 87.8
7. Billy Sims 85.1
8. Curtis Martin 83.9
9. O.J. Simpson 83.2
10. Edgerrin James 82.7
11. Earl Campbell 81.8
12. Emmitt Smith 81.2

Again, I'm not saying he's better than O.J. or Emmitt, but that's not a guy who just hung around for a long time compiling stats. Bettis is 25th at 71.2, BTW.

(*First of all, it's not fair to include active players on a stat like this. And second, there's some kind of glitch on the pro-football-reference leaderboard for them. When I looked at this a few months ago, Adrian Peterson & Chris Johnson were the only active players ahead of Martin.)

72 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

You're wrong on this one.

I'm the first to say Martin was a better and more complete back than Bettis, but this ain't why.

Bettis stayed with the Steelers for about 3 years (25% of his career) as a backup and goal-line back. This dragged down his ypg, and ypc average under 4.0 (IMO the biggest reason Betti isn't in, and may have a hard time getting in). In Bettis's final season, I believe he saw significant action in just one game, and in that game ran for over 100 yards against Urlacher's Bears.

Your stat basically rewards players who got injured during (or soon after) their prime or retired once they were no longer a starter. It's interesting debate fodder I suppose, but it is in no way a legitimate way to rank RBs.

105 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

I only mention the Bettis comparison because people like to lump the 2 of them together. But while Bettis' 2 best years by ypg were better than Martin's, it evens out after that. Looking at their 5 best seasons, Martin averaged 95.07, Bettis 93.75. And it just gets worse after that.

As for Portis, no, of course I don't consider him a HOF back. But there's a big difference between 6 1,000 yard seasons and 10 of them.

Martin's 4th all-time in rushing yards, and unlike Art Monk's receptions record, there are not a ton of guys who will come along and pass him because the game is different.

The bottom line on Martin is that anybody who was as effective as he was for as long as he was is in the Hall of Fame.

79 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

That's a good example to my point. Do you think Portis is Hall of Fame material? Until last season, he had a long series of 1000-yard seasons. He is in that top-12. Did you ever think, after his rookie and sophomore season, that the guy was elite enough to be in the Hall?

73 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Apparently, the nitwits who vote for this joke of an institution think the qbs they vote in caught their own passes. And the list of guys who coached two champions for one franchise, coached another franchise to the championship game after taking the reigns of a trainwreck, coached another 1-15 trainwreck to the conference championship game, then took a team that had Quincy Carter and Troy Hambrick as offensive playmakers, and a bunch of old guys on defense, to the playoffs in a decent division (possibly the greatest coaching performance since the merger), and then was the architect for another 1-15 team's oneseason turnaround, is pretty long.

Five random overserved football fans in a sports bar could do a better job than what these numbskulls do.

84 Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012 Announced

Didn't Parcells have a rep for only moving on to loaded teams? Teams that had spent prior years both losing a lot and loading up in the draft? If so, how much credit does he deserve for turning those franchises around?

Three year record of teams Parcells accepted positions with. And as a bonus for him, pick awaiting him his first year.

NEP 9-39 #1 pick
NYJ 10-38 #8 pick
DAL 15-33 #5 pick
MIA 16-32 #1 pick

I do recall it being spoken of a lot, vis-a-vis where he'd eventually coach next.