Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

12 Nov 2007

2007 Quick Reads: Week 10

Looking at Peyton Manning's worst performances. No, he's not the worst quarterback in DPAR this week, but you'll see just how rare it is for him to put up negative value. I seem to have forgotten to write comments for the running backs. Sorry about that.

Posted by: Aaron Schatz on 12 Nov 2007

106 comments, Last at 15 Nov 2007, 10:59am by dryheat


by Jim (not verified) :: Mon, 11/12/2007 - 11:04pm

As has been said in the other thread, Romo was clearly not across the line of scrimmage. And it's not that hard to check.

Oh, and first! (?)

by Lou (not verified) :: Mon, 11/12/2007 - 11:14pm

the testaverde line made me lol.

by Matt Weiner (not verified) :: Mon, 11/12/2007 - 11:24pm

#2 me too.

I was surprised to see Derek Anderson grade out so well, given how terrible his second half was, and that two of the first-half touchdowns were set up by very short fields. Is it mostly opponent adjustment? How much of his DPAR came on the first drive of the game (or the last drive)?

by sam (not verified) :: Mon, 11/12/2007 - 11:24pm

"Jacksonville is not so good against the slot receivers."

The reason has a name. His name strikes fear into the hearts of Jacksonville fans across the nation (er, city). Terry. Cousin.

Also, the Quinn Gray note about his weak arm just shows that whoever wrote it hasn't watched more than a few minutes of Jaguars football in the last 4 weeks. Gray throws MUCH better on the long passes than the short stuff. But why in the world would you ask your backup QB to throw deep against the Titans, when you have a significant lead and Maurice Jones-Drew and Fred Taylor (and Greg Jones) in your backfield?

by Temo (not verified) :: Mon, 11/12/2007 - 11:25pm

I guess quinn gray's numbers look so good because the Titan's D is that good?

by countertorque (not verified) :: Mon, 11/12/2007 - 11:32pm

RE: 3

Agreed. I was very surprised to see Anderson get 7.5 DPAR at 8 yds/attempt.

I'm sure the opponent adjustment is a big part. But still...

by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 11/12/2007 - 11:37pm

How about Kurt Warner's game? He appears to have visited the same fountain of youth as Jeff Garcia.

by Al H (not verified) :: Mon, 11/12/2007 - 11:38pm

#5: Also I think it helps that he had no turnovers(although he was close a few times!)

Plus the 4th down conversion probably helped.

by Matt Weiner (not verified) :: Mon, 11/12/2007 - 11:40pm

#6 actually it was 8 yards/completion; less than 4 yards/attempt. Might help that he didn't get sacked.

I was going to say that adjustments didn't help Jamal Lewis any, but the sad thing is they probably did.

by Will Allen (not verified) :: Mon, 11/12/2007 - 11:43pm

I object to no Vikings receiver ever being named least valuable, because they are so worthless that no pass ever goes in their direction. Hell, at least Marty Booker gave some sort of indication that it might be wortwhile to fling it his way. The Vikings may as well line up two or three shopping carts wide. Well, except for the fact that a shopping cart is likely to drop the ball......

by Yaxley (not verified) :: Mon, 11/12/2007 - 11:54pm

Allow me to echo the enjoyment of the Testaverde comment. Well played.

by TomC (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:00am

Agreed, mad props to the Testaverde comment. But serious points deducted for the misuse (deliberate or not) of "wherefore".

by Rollo (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:01am

#4: I always wonder what sort of incriminating evidence Terry Cousin has that prevents Scott Starks from assuming the nickel role. He was great against Tennessee last year - this would have been the perfect week to start the revolution.

And agreed, Grey is almost comically bad on short passes such as screens, excepting last week.

by Jimmy (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:08am

The Testaverde line is a cracker.

by Devin McCullen (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:21am

More applause for the Vinny line.

I think McNair's performance is more appropriate for Michael Caine's rendition of "It's Over". (I'm sure it's on YouTube)

by Geo B (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:28am

OK I'm willing to give Derek Anderson more DPAR than Big Ben even considering Ben put up a lot more yards and a lot higher YPC (which I hold in higher regard than YPA) - but Carson Palmer higher than both? NO TD's guys. Someone on FO please tell me how he generates NO TD's and gets that high a rating. (Yes I'm a Steeler fan). Does the Ravens D still grade out that high?

by Temo (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:35am

16. Yea, I've been wondering stuff like that for a while. Is there anywhere we can see "well this play was worth this much par, see" or is that proprietary information?

by Ch V Kalyan (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:36am

As a patsfan, i am going to complaint against the lack of Pats players on the Quick Read list (so what if they are on a bye week, the pats never take their foot off the pedal!)

A pats-hater would have cringed to see the way NE & Tom Brady got infused into the article!!!

Warning: Sarcasm intended

by Some Dude (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:46am

It's amazing how much a strong performance in Quick Reads can take the sting off of an embarrassing loss. Thrash is the man!

by cat rodriguez (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:50am

Booker also dropped multiple passes. It wasn't just Lemon being inaccurate.

by B (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:53am

16: TDs aren't the be all and end all of calculating DPAR. Palmer still gets credit for moving his team into the red zone seven times, plus he had no interceptions.

by AHBM (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:55am

At very least, Aaron could provide the PAR for Palmer this week so we have an idea how much was a result of opponent adjustment. I also get the sensation of smelling a pile of dog mess when I see Palmer ranked so highly despite the lack of red zone production.

by Matt Saracen - QB1 - Dillon Panthers (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:59am

Re 18: Yeah Brady got dissed bad - 6 negative games in the last 3 years compared to Manning's 5 (well 3 really), no question who's better now haha

Re 17: It would have been interesting to watch the game because it seems as if Carson is often accused of being DVOA's pet (particularly by Steelers fans it seem). So a scouts eye view would be helpful to me. But the Bengals offense is top 5 in DVOA, Carson is top 5 in DPAR but because they are tanking their season away, the guy gets no respect. Let me guess, long drives and lack of turnovers? Sounds like a decent enough QB to me even if that was all he could do.

Oh and is there a 370 carry equivalent figure for punters?? Poor Andy Lee's leg is really getting a workout this year.

by Will Allen (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 1:15am

#20, yeah, but Booker did enough to be worthy of being given a chance to drop a pass! The Vikings receivers are so bad they don't even gat those opportunities anymore. Marty Booker is Jerry Rice compared to who the Vikings set out wide!

by Bob in Jax (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 1:16am

Sam -- I had the exact same thought about the slot receiver issue. (Re:#4) Any Jax fan would. Free Scott Starks!

by Matt Weiner (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 1:18am

Trying to shield us from the FOMBC: As a Steelers fan I'm not complaining about DPAR -- if the QB can go almost a whole half without a first-down completion, and that's better than what you expect against our defense, that makes me happy.

I'm just curious what's driving it -- is it the opponent adjustment, or the successful first drive? Since as #21 says TDs aren't the be-all and end-all for DPAR, I'd figure that the two short TD drives wouldn't add that much.

by Temo (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 1:20am

23. And here I thought under no circumstances would I be downloading and watching the bengals/ravens game...

by Will Allen (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 1:23am

More seriously, that is an issue with catch percentage and drops as a means of evaluating receiver play. In order for those two stats to come into play, a receiver first has to be good enough to warrant a qb throwing in his direction. REALLY bad receivers don't even clear this hurdle, as watching the Vikings will demonstrate.

by B (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 1:26am

I have no idea why Anderson's DPAR is so high, but if I had to guess I'd say it was Jamal Lewis' performance that was putting him in bad situations and causing drives to stall out.

by countertorque (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 2:15am


My comment got munged. I meant to say that Anderson had less than 4 yds/attempt for 7.5 DPAR and Ben had greater than 8 yards/attempt for 1.7 (passing) DPAR.

I watched the game and I recognize that Ben didn't play well in the first half. But, I really don't see how Anderson's performance rated that much higher than Ben's, unless the opponent adjustment is that big.

by johonny (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 2:56am

If you think Ginn was a bad pick think about how bad Lorenzo Booker has to be to be sitting behind two free agents picked up off the street. Great 3rd round pick.

by Alex (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:12am

NO TD’s guys. Someone on FO please tell me how he generates NO TD’s and gets that high a rating. (Yes I’m a Steeler fan).

Let's see:

1) He was facing a top-10 defense. This was the fourth game this season he's played against a top-10 defense.

Bengals offense against top-10 defenses: 18.5 points per game.

Against other defenses: 29 points per game.

Carson Palmer against top-10 defenses: 4 TDs total in 4 games (1 TD/Game).

Carson Palmer against other defenses: 12 TDs total in 5 games (2.4 TDs/Game).

2) His RBs averaged 2.25 ypc, so he was often put in bad situations.

3) He didn't turn the ball over.

4) He put together long drives that gave his team a chance at scoring points, either through FGs or TDs. This time, it was FGs. But FGs count. Getting into the redzone, where a FG is extremely likely, is important.

5) His DPAR wasn't that high. He got 8.4 DPAR. Basically, DPAR's saying that with a replacement level QB (say, Kyle Boller or Cleo Lemon) the Bengals only would've scored about 12 points. So Palmer is getting credit for about 3 FGs, because he got the team into easy FG range so many times.

Also, there were 3 drives that ended within 5 yards of a TD. If, instead of handing off to Kenny Watson on 3rd-and-goal from the 1, Palmer had thrown a 1 yard pass, he'd have 1 TD. Then, later in the game, if Antonio Chatman had gained 8 yards instead of 3, Palmer would have 2 TDs. Then, later, if Kenny Watson had gained 9 yards instead of 5 on Palmer's 3rd down pass, Palmer would've had 3 TDs.

By only changing three plays, giving Palmer 1 more completion and 10 more yards, he'd go from 0 TDs to 3. Would Palmer's performance be any more impressive if that had happened? Maybe a little, but not that much. And yet nobody would've questioned his DPAR if that had happened.

by Bobman (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:20am

Amazing, no amusing, no... just scary that the 2003 co-MVPs both suffered so badly this weekend.

Also amaz--amus--just plain f-ed up that Reggie Wayne did not have a top-10 receiving day despite his 10/140 performance. Does DPAR take into account "giving up on passes" and "passively watching the opponent intercept"? Then it makes sense. In a sad, sick kind of way.

John Standeford nuthin! I say bring back Qadry Ismail and Reggie "Foghorn" Langhorne from Manning's rookie year!

by Becephalus (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:24am

1 -Jim) What are you talking about??? I care about neither of these teams, I JUST watched the replay after you comment, and he is a good 3 or 4 ft over the line?

Homerism away!

by jimcooder (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:53am

Kind of going off what you said about Lewis, I think because of Lewis's ineptitude Anderson throwing (and doing a good job at it) for a lot of TDs that should be going to a good running back....of course Lewis is not a good running back.

I do think the oppenent adjustment might that big. Pit had a very high ranked defense coming into the game and Cleveland had one of the leagues worst. Big Ben played poorly in that he should have played the way he played in the second half in the first half as well...so he underperformed against a week defense. Anderson did better than expected against the strong Pit D, and my guess is that the terrible running game of the Browns was the main culprit in the second half offensive collapse.

by Mystyc (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 4:02am

Re: Anderson/Roethlisberger: I'm sure if you looked only at PAR "revenue" (that is, positive plays), The Berger would have ranked higher than Anderson, but Anderson doesn't get sacked and didn't throw a pick in his own back zone. *Then* you get the opponent adjustments, which push one guy way up and one guy way down. I'm not surprised that Anderson ended up higher.

I am a little surprised that Big Ben's final passing DPAR was less than 2, even with the stuff I mentioned, just because he converted so many third downs, and frequently long ones. But maybe the Browns D really is that bad.

by jimmy (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 6:38am

Bulger had 2 runs for -1 yard according to box score (i think one of these was a kneel) and this gives him -2.6 rush DPAR. Must be an error somewhere.

by Dutch (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 6:54am

These have to be the worst set of rankings I have ever seen. Derek anderson had 1 drive. that's it, one lousy drive. He was bouncing balls off the ground in the 2nd half. How can this guy rank ahead of Ben? Carson Palmer. Here is a guy who ranks the 2nd worst 3rd down QB in the AFC. He's up near the top. Does anyone know what Ben was last week on these quick reeds after throwing 5 td passes against the same defense? And by the way Ben doesn't have 3 deep threat receivers. but seriously anyone with half of brain knows that these rankings are laughable. So what's the point in having them? AAron I beg you to come on my radio show so that I can seriously ask you some questions on this stuff.
Otherwise I am forced to believe you either don't know what your doing or your just some angry pats fan who hates Ben.

by RickD (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 8:16am

re: 38
Yes, the DVOA system was all contrived just to make Roethlisberger look bad!

Anderson had a weak second half, but Roethlisberger had a very weak first half. Also, Roethlibserger had the advantage of having a live human being in his backfield he could hand off to. Pretty much all of the Browns' offense was due to Anderson.

by Podge (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 10:07am

Are typed things eligible for quotes of the week? Cos if they are I'd like to make 2 nominations:

1. The comment for Testaverde.

2. This FOX comment by the esteemed jeeperscreepers987097:

"It's obvious who the better quarterback is. All those Manning bum-kissers have been promoting Manning for years. He's had the same three established receivers for his entire career. Take them away & you have a clueless rookie out there. Six (6) interceptions, that made my day."

You can't make this up. You heard it there first - Peyton Manning isn't one of the top 10 QBs to ever play, he's a 9th year (or something like that) rookie.

by Podge (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 10:11am


I think you'll find that the whole DVOA system was designed to hate the Rams, until everyone realised that, then it switched to being right about the Rams, then it started hating Big Ben (the player, not the bell). Get with the ridiculously stupid conspiracy programme!

by Matt Weiner (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 10:17am

#37 -- Bulger fumbled a snap (think that might have been the 1 rush) -- DPAR hates fumbles.

by Justin Zeth (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 10:29am

A little hint for Steelers fans trying to support their quarterback around him: Call him "Roethlisberger." Not "Ben." I know it's hard to spell, but look it up, because referring to him as "Ben" is like putting up a glowing marquee over your head that says "STEELERS HOMER HERE!"

Anderson's DPAR mostly WAS the first quarter, I'm sure. He converted several third-and-longs, which PAR highly values.

I've actually noticed this about a lot of quarterbacks going in against the Steelers: Not only their DPAR but also their raw PAR often come out higher than their raw performance would seem to merit. I suspect it's because, if you look it up, the Steelers defense gives up as many first downs on third-and-long as any defense in the league. The Steelers run defense is so stout that it pushes their opponents into a lot of third-and-longs; and their pass defense is all about the pass rush and always allows you to have the medium-range completion if you can pick up the rush, resulting in quite a few first downs on those third-and-longs.

It's fairly minor, but it's sort of a systematic issue that I doubt can be fixed in DPAR. When an opponent converts third-and-long against the Steelers, most of the time it's because they picked up the pass rush and somebody was wide open about three yards past the marker. The o-line deserves mroe credit and the quarterback less, but how do you account for that?

by resident jenius (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 10:48am

From the comments, made me spill the morning coffee. . .

Who was Harrison before Manning got there? Can't answer that, can you? Do you know where Reggie Wayne came from (what team he was acquired from)? How GOOD or POPULAR was Reggie with his former team before he landed in Indy? Can't answer that either, right? Reggie Wayne was acquired from the Miami Dolphins, and before he arrived in Indy, he was NO ONE!

by Gerry (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 10:59am

#44-- Now that is someone who's fanhood needs questioning.

by mawbrew (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 11:22am

Re: 38

You have to love the selective memory of fans. This post complains about Anderson having only one drive (ignoring his 3 TDs) while raving about Roethlisberger's 5 TDs from the previous week (ignoring his average TD 'drive' was a measley 35 yards with both Ravens starting corners out).

I'm sure the opponent adjustments for this game were huge. Anderson avoided sacks and turnovers against a defense very good at creating them. Ben got sacked and threw a pick against a defense that hadn't been generating them.

As a Browns fan this game was actually pretty encouraging defensively. They were able to force more punts and FGs than I was expecting. They had some of the stunningly bad plays we've come to expect (the Ward TD, McGinnest's failure on Ben's scramble, the Miller first down) but fewer than usual. The Steelers dominated time of possession but that was more on our offense getting handled by their D.

by Karl Cuba (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 11:28am

The niners made baby jesus cry last night.

How depressing, they appeared to be very poorly prepared and the Pas are going to have a top five pick, probably McFadden. I like Nolan but I think he might have to go.

by billsfan (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 11:59am

Also, the original "Big Ben" has the mobility of Drew Bledsoe in the pocket.

by Will Allen (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:07pm

No, Karl, for real proof of beelzebub's residence in Foxboro, what will happen is that the 49ers will end up with the number 1 pick, and then some team like the Dolphins or Vikings will trade up for the pick, to grab a qb who will bust out, while the Pats get multiple picks, with which to draft McFadden anyways, along with yet more talented depth.

by Harris (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:11pm

#19 I'm going to add "Thrash is the man!" to the list of sentences that have never been said before and will never be said again.

by Tom Kelso (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:21pm

Anyone else think, esepcially after that comment, that Cleo Lemon was given a subliminal messge equating Marty Booker with Green Eggs and Ham?

As far a teh QB prospects for next year -- system QB from Louisville (Brohm/Redman), physical specimen whom no one had heard of until this year (Ryan/Boller), or raw undisciplined talent who may not ever be capable of playing at the NFL level (Woodson/Troy Smith) -- maybe the paranoia is finally getting to me a little, but does anyone think ANY of these guys is anywhere near a lock?

by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:30pm


"whom no one had heard of until this year (Ryan/Boller), "

If you'd never heard of Ryan, you haven't been paying attention to college football.

by Costa (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 12:52pm

I'm sure a lot of you guys get a kick out of the Fox and ESPN comments, but personally, I just find them legitimately depressing.

It brings me down to be reminded of how many people there are out there like that. =(

by Temo (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 1:11pm

34. General consensus man, there's screen caps out there of his foot being behind the 15 yard line when the ball is released. And the whole body has to be beyond the line to count.

by mmm... sacrilicious (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 1:21pm

#40: I nominate this one to go along with your two quotes:
Sunday only proves what history keeps repeating...Peyton Manning is the true "Mr. October"

Don't expect much more from him this season. I'll take a consistent QB any day over one that peaks 6 games into the season.

Although I have to remember to grit my teeth and smile when I'm reading those, because I agree with Costa that they can be depressing.

by TGT (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 1:24pm

@51 Are you trying to make all Ravens' fans cry? How can the Ravens be so good at evaluating defensive talent and o-line talent, and so horrible at evaluating qb talent?

by Cyrus (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 1:32pm

Two points:
1- Big Ben is exactly what the ratings say he is. I hate debating it with Steelers fans, as they are usually blinded by hate towards Palmer and love towards Big Ben. He did a great job making up for the horrible offensive line, but he also made plenty of mistakes and isn't elite yet. Live with it.

2- I thought it was crazy looking at Peyton's worst performances... Against the 2003 Patriots, he had a PAR of -12.7 and a DPAR of -6 something. That was a good defense, to get that sort of adjustment. I miss having a defense like that.

by Temo (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 1:32pm

55. QBs have always seemed to be more hit or miss than any other position.

by TTP (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 1:59pm

Idea for mini-FO extra point article: Why is there such a huge discrepancy between Roethlisberger's traditional stats (QB rating > 110, YPP > 8.5)and his FO stats (middle of the pack DPAR/DVOA)? There are some obvious answers to this question, of course. Tradional stats don't make situational or opponent adjustments and don't account for sacks or fumbles. I'd like to know which of these factors is most responible for the gap. As a Steeler (and FO) fan, I would find this to be particularly enlightening, considering my eyes tell me that Roethlisberger is having a great season.

by Fnor (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 2:06pm

Shorter 56: "I disagree with you and my psychic powers tell me your thoughts, which are naturally stupid and wrong, you idiot child."

Yes. The FOX comments are just a big cesspool. Thank god we're not on that level.

by The Other Vlad (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 2:30pm

I will admit to being curious about what Roethlisberger earned in last week's game. Subjectively, he looked pretty good, but the game didn't happen until after the week's Quick Reads came out.

by DB (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 2:37pm

RE #34 : You're jumping the gun a little. I believe that #1 was correct. It's painful, but if you trace through the discussion in the Audibles thread, there are two points :

1) The actual rule is that the QB's ENTIRE body and the ball must be passed the line of scrimmage.
2) I believe that the video shows that Romo's foot was still behind the LOS, even though the rest of him and the ball were across it.
3) This is still a legal forward pass.

If the other thread got the rule wrong, that would change things, but I don't think they did.

by B (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 2:39pm

58: It would be a really short article, because the reason is opponent adjustments. Rothlesberger and Palmer have about the same VOA, but Rothlesberger's DVOA is half that.

by Geo B (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 2:41pm

32 - Nice writeup. Sounds very reasonable. Didn't get to see the game, appreciate the analysis.

43 - You're mostly right - except for your fetish. I can call him Big Ben if I want - or I can copy and paste Roethlisberger or I can type Big Ben and we know who it is. Anderson did do great the first drive, then spent the second half looking like Mark "Master of the bounce pass" Malone.

46 - I was very impressed by the pass blocking of the Cleveland O-line. Not sure if they were max protecting more in the second half but it didn't seem that the Steelers were getting close to the QB at all to justify all his terrible throws. So why was their running game so terrible? Nice writeup here on FO last week on the Cleveland O-line, makes me want to give the Browns some props and thinking they can compete for a wild card.

56 - I agree that Roethlisberger (see I can still hit paste) had a rough first half, he also did not have a lot of run support (Fast Willie or sorry to I have to type Parker since I'm not supposed to use nicknames I guess) also faced a lot of third and longs - Parker finished 25/105 but had a lot of two yard runs - just thinking Roethlisberger had a better game than Anderson, his TD drives did cover a lot more distance, picked up many third and longs like Anderson did, more so when the Steelers were down and the pressure was on, and not getting credit for it - I think DPAR is nailing him a lot for the pick (but it did lead to an opposing TD so maybe he earned it) and he's not getting enough credit for leading his team back to victory with two come from behind drives.

Oh and one more for 56 - I don't hate Palmer. Respect him, and the Bengals receivers a lot (except for Chris Henry, who kills the Steelers but he seems to be a hood). Just seems like he gets a lot more props than Roethlisberger (there's that copy and paste again) for similar numbers and lower team results - but I do understand he can't play defense for the Bengals.

58 - Great idea! As an FO and Steelers fan, would love to see that one written up.

by Costa (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 2:41pm

Indeed, I've always though of yards-per-attempt as the most efficient traditional stat for judging QBs, and Roethlisberger's career (and coincidentally his current season's) 8.3 YPA is excellent. Moreover, YPA has jibed pretty well with QB DVOA in my experience, so it is a little curious that the synergy does not seem to be there for Big Ben. I'd be interested to see some reasoning on that as well.

by Nathan (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 2:44pm

Qadry Ismail and Reggie “Foghorn� Langhorne?

I bet Jerome Pathon could use a job. What's Torrence Small doing these days?

by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 2:47pm

"I agree that Roethlisberger (see I can still hit paste) had a rough first half..."

He had a rough first half against an awful pass defense. Anderson had a decent game against a great pass defense.

Ben is getting a bad DVOA because hes playing poorly against a team quarterbacks usually play well against.

Remember, Palmer put up 50 on the Browns.

by B (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 2:48pm

You can't compare DVOA to YPP directly because DVOA adjusts for defense and YPP does not. The Steelers have played against a very easy set of pass defenses, and the Bengals and Browns have not. Mostly because both of those teams had to play Pittsburgh and New England, where as the Steelers haven't. And for the record, Baltimore's pass defense is average. (ranked 15th as of last week).

by Patrick (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 2:58pm

The Browns defense has more Ints than the Steeler D so far this season.

Just to give the complete view of the Steeler Homer perspective:

Steelers O scores 28, saddled with a replacement level running game. Ben gets maybe 2 dpar. Denver O scores 24, Cutler gets like 8 dpar. Fine.

Steelers O scores 24, almost 100% successful on every drive after the first. Ben gets like 2dpar. The Bengals O, with a running game that was just gashing the steelers all day, scores 13. Palmer gets 11 dpar. What would a replacement level team score against the steelers, -15?

Steelers/Ravens. Steelers run game is absolutely abysmal. Steelers score 35 points in the first half, and a 45-yard 3rd-and-long completion puts the steelers at the raven 4 but ben leaves the game with a hip injury. Game wasn't included in quick reads for obvious reasons, but also for the first time this season players in the MNF game weren't updated in the DVOA that week.

Steelers have 6 scoring drives, of 38, 52, 54, 57, 66, and 78 yards. Almost all of them in the traditional Steeler "run for 0 on first, run for 0 on second, convert 3rd and 10 through the air, repeat" offensive game plan. Browns have 3 scoring drives of 3, 18, and 71 yards (the 71 yard drive was exceptionally well quarterbacked, no question). Ben gets 1.5 passing dpar, Derek gets 7.5 after totalling 120 yards off 32 attempts. We are informed that the Steeler's 9-point first half is significantly below replacement level against the Browns, with the Replacements probably averaging 30 points a game (15 per half) against this defense.

At the same time (vs. the Ravens), the bengals offense manages to turn 3 possessions that start in field goal range into field goals, and also move 4 possessions that start out of field goal range into field goal range. Carson gets 8.4 dpar.

I used to think that a quick way of thinking about QB dpar was that it was similar to QB rating, but punished QBs who had inflated numbers from the classic "9 yard completion on 3rd and 10" scenarios. However, Ben's 110 QB rating is backed by the league's best 3rd down effectiveness, yet he is still sitting with a DPAR that about matches his TD total.

by doktarr (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:14pm

Curious: what was Manning's DPAR in the "playoffs?!" game? I'm curious because they mentioned it in the broadcast as being his previous career high in picks (4).

It was week 11 in 2001.

by B (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:17pm

67: I don't think you appreciate the difference between the Steelers defense and those other defenses. The Steelers defense would make Brett Favre look like Chad Pennington. and those other defenses make Chad Pennington look like Brett Favre. Only scoring 24 on the Bengals should be considered a failure. And the Browns are routinely giving up 30 points in the first half.

by Cyrus (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:21pm

#63- First of all, call him Big Ben, I refuse to cut and paste his name, or type it from memory, and I'm a Pats fan. Big Ben and FWP are acceptable, to me. Other anal Pats fans may disagree.

Also, I wasn't saying you hated on Palmer, I just find that a lot of Steeler Nation gets upset that Palmer is rated higher than Big Ben. But the simple fact of the matter is-- Palmer is better than Big Ben.

In this game, Ben didn't do much of anything in the first half. It may have been due to Parker or running for his life, but he wasn't really special. In the second half, he led some good drives, but he was aided by a horrid CLE defense that allowed him to run up the middle for 10 and 30 yards.

As that gets put in his rushing rating, his passing rating was average, because, in my opinion, he was average at passing. Makes sense, but I may be just as biased as Steeler fans.

Keep in mind, Cleveland allowed Ben to throw for 5 TD's last time he faced them. They are not that great on defense. So leading a come from behind rally isn't that impressive, as CLE was only ahead due to some individual special teams plays-- Ben's inability to score a TD in the first half is the only reason they were still behind.

I hope none of what I just said is offensive, but that is my opinion on what he managed to do. I like him, and he is a good QB, but not elite.

by Mystyc (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:24pm

67: The Steelers went "run, run pass" exactly twice during the Browns game, so you're wrong there. Just saying.

And for everyone talking about running games, DVOA and DPAR don't have an adjustment for your own running game. Maybe you get put in worse situations, but the system doesn't say, "well, he was really the only guy out there, so let's give him a bonus."

The Steelers are #3 in pass defense, and the Browns are #31. That makes for huge opponent adjustments. It skews the stats, but it doesn't mean Roethlisberger didn't have a good game. (In particular, 17 passing first downs on 35 attempts seems pretty good.)

by Dr. Foresight (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:26pm

Regarding Roethlisberger's low DPAR, to try to stave off the FOMBC, because I am a Steelers fan: have you looked at the DVOA for Cleveland's defense? Link in my alias. Roethlisberger is not going to lead the league in DPAR next week either, because he's playing the Jets' pass defense, which is even worse!

by mawbrew (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:28pm

Re: 67

You're right (sort of). Prior to this game the Browns and the Steelers both had 7 picks for the year.

And it is sort of homerism to cherry pick the stats that support your bias. For example, (as I mentioned earlier) those 35 points vs the Ravens were aided by very short fields. And I'm not sure how Parker ended up with over a hunder yards if he was consistently getting 0 yards on a typical carry.

DVOA/DPAR are very good systems but they aren't a replacement for your own subjective analysis. Everyone is going to believe their own perspective is superior to the systems because there are things your will factor in that DVOA/DPAR can't (injuries, weather, etc). I know that Haynesworth not playing makes a big difference to the Titans D but DVOA doesn't.

If you subjectively believe that Roethlisberger is better than Palmer (or Brady or Manning), DVOA isn't going to convince you otherwise.

Roethlisberger is having a terrific year. I hope Steeler fans are enjoying it.

by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:29pm

I'm really not sure why it's so difficult to figure out why Roethlisberger's DVOA is so mediocre.

Opposing Passing DVOA (as of last week):
CLE: 36.4% (31st)
BUF: 7.3% (17th)
SF: 29.8% (27th)
ARI: 12.0% (19th)
SEA: -1.9% (10th)
DEN: 28.3% (25th)
CIN: 28.8% (26th)
BAL: 5.0% (15th)
CLE: 36.4% (31st)

That makes a grand total of one single good pass defense, a couple borderline mediocre, and a bunch of really bad. Roethlisberger's been putting up pretty good conventional numbers, but facing that kind of competition he'd have to be lighting the world on fire to put up a dominant DVOA.

by Patrick (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:44pm

dropping defensive adjustments,

ben is still 11th in PAR, and basically tied for 6th in VOA.

that's certainly an improvement from his #14 spot in DVOA, but there's a lot more than defensive adjustments taking the #2 qb rating/#1 3rd down passer down to 6th/7th.

I'm not saying "conspiracy!" or even "DVOA doesn't work!", i'm just saying there is something significant going on that I'm missing and I'm curious. I think one part of it is that DVOA doesn't like QBs with crappy protection. Where conventional thinking might say "wow, he's got that offense as one of the highest scoring in the league despite the horrible protection", DVOA looks at it and says "that's a great offense, who knows how good they'd be if their QB didn't keep getting himself sacked".

or maybe that's not it. curiosity is all.

by Bob Cook (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 3:52pm

From Bill Polian's Colts.com chat, week 7 before the Panthers game:

Q: Has there been any consideration given to re-signing wide receiver John Standeford?

A: We don’t have any openings on the roster and our receivers are healthy, so there is no spot for him. If we had a rash of injuries, I’m sure he would be one of the first people we would consider.

John Standeford, stay by the phone!

by cjfarls (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 4:09pm

Re: 77

I think if the previous Steeler-homers said it like you do Patrick, we'd all be agreeing with you... unfortunately, many of the earlier comments were of the "DVOA hates Big Ben!" variety...

Also, remeber DVOA/DPAR says "Big Ben with Steeler supporting cast"... so I think Ben is indeed elite... his supporting weapons are far below the Manning/Brady variety...

As a Denver-homer (who watched him tear us apart a couple years ago in the playoffs), I will say he is a top 5 QB... 6th in VOA, given his supporting cast, I think backs that up.

by Patrick (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 4:29pm

24 points may not sound like a lot, but when you only have 6 possessions to score them, it's a pretty serious number. Comparable to a team with a standard 12-13 possessions scoring 48 or 52.

true. worth noting though that the first possession was "run, run, run, punt" and another first half possession ended with "run, run, run, FG".

The Steelers had 30 non-ben running plays in the Browns game. 22 were for 3 yards or less, 17 for 2 yards or less; of the other 8, 7 were for 7 or less. Parker also had an incompletion.

Again, neglecting defensive adjustments, VOA isn't impressed by Ben. And I agree that he would "have to be lighting the world on fire" in order to get any excitement out of DVOA. However, conventional stats say he is "lighting the world on fire", on pace for the 6th best QB rating all time (including brady this year), 40ish TDs, 13 picks. And those 5, 2 were throwing to rice, and 2 to moss.

I just thought there was a disparity there that I was curious about, if I'm coming off as just homerism I apologize.

by Fire Millen? (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 5:03pm

Patrick, I think Roethlisberger's PAR is lowish is because his raw yards and attempts are low. Par is a counting statistic and is based on how many good plays a player has. Ben has good plays just not as many. Also a DPAR against the Browns of 5.1 probably exceeds a PAR of 10 which would move him up the list. QB rating ignores actual yards it is a weighted average of 4 ratios, Comp%, YPA, TD/Att, and Int/Att.

by B (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 5:05pm

Rothlesberger's PAR is lower than his VOA because the Steelers don't throw the ball as often as the teams ahead of him do. The reason his VOA is lower than his QB rating is QB rating ignores sacks, and he's getting sacked a lot more than Brady or Manning. Of course, that has more to do with the steelers O-Line than Rothlesberger, but he does take some responsibility for not throwing the ball away.

by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 5:42pm

Patrick, QB Rating isn't a particularly helpful stat since it doesn't take into account game situation. In addition to the failed 3rd-down situation you mentioned, it also heavily rewards QBs for short-field TDs.

And how is being ranked 6th in VOA not getting any respect. He's behind Brady and Manning (whom I doubt anyone would argue with), and Romo (whom I'd suspect only Pittsburgh fans would argue with). So really, the only issue should be with Anderson and Garrard. Is a difference of 2 spots really that important to get worked up over?

by Nathan (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 7:00pm

78: I was very curious about that. Thank you very much for posting.

by Diane (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 8:28pm

Kudos for the Vinny and Cleo comments. They made my day.

by Digit (not verified) :: Tue, 11/13/2007 - 8:29pm

re: 83

Is a difference of 2 spots really that important to get worked up over?

When you consider the Peytom Branning irrational threads over -one- spot difference, I can easily picture Roethlisberger fans debating with Romo fans over that.

I await the War of the Ro's.

by DrObviousSo (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 12:27am

81:"Patrick, I think Roethlisberger’s PAR is lowish is because his raw yards and attempts are low."
I don't personally have the stats to back this up, but according to the announcers of the Steelers/Browns game, only the Patriots have a longer average ball-in-air average per pass.

I am in the same camp as Patric. I like FO's stats, and in many ways find them enlightening. However, they don't match up with my subjective observations, or that of the common wisdom. In the past, there has often been a reason for this, and the FO people have done a good reason of explaining that. We would very much enjoy seeing the FO staff explaining what that is in this case.

by Dutch (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 3:31am

Roethlisberger's yards per attempt career avg id among the highest ever. nostat aligns with winning more than passing yards per attempt. Hence, Big Ben wins more games than just about every one. His defense is real god but it certainly helps when your QB is the best on third down. It keeps the D off the field. Likewise, cincy's D is on thefiels alot cause Palmer is pathetic on third down. I really don't care what dvoa says ,because its been proven that it has major flaws. FO ignored Romo's 8 + yards per attempt last yr, and gave them a bad forecast. bad bad bad. You cannot ignore yards per attempt. Its thee most important stat. You give me a QB who avergaes over 8 YPA for a season, and I wil show you a great team. Carson Palmer has all the weapons in the world, and he can't beat the Bills. He's terrible. Ben has a BETTER CAREER 1st qtr passer rating. 4th qtr passer rating .higher yards per attempt. better 3rd down passing stats. In all the key areas, Ben pisses all over Palmer. If Palmer had a better defense, he wouldn't be able to keep all those receivers. And he would do even worse. He's terrible. He will never win anything. Get over it.

by Bobman (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 4:53am

Man, I love to see guys picnicking on each other over QBs OTHER than TB and PM.

Regarding Romo, I have no valid opinion. I've seen a few games and he seems pretty good. Inconsistent. Talented. Good improvisor. The last part aside, that might have described P Manning 18 games into his career, too, but Romo never gave me the impression that he "owned" his offense, yet.

Regarding Ben R, I genuinely think I would not like him if I met him. Seems to be more of an arrogant jerk than most of these supremely talented millionaires--maybe it's just his flippant way. He exudes a genuine air of "I-don't-give-a-shitness." But when he's healthy, there aren't many QB's I'd put above him. I think he has a way to go as far as decision-making, but his raw talent is pretty huge. I initially put him in the category of caretaker with a great D and run game (like I used to categorize Brady) but after Ben's rookie year, when I saw him more and saw them play pass-first a fair amount, I grew to reluctantly appreciate and fear him. (That Brady guy too, FWIW)

I still like Palmer more than Ben or Romo, but fear he'll never be what he was two years ago.

Here's a QB litmus test: Who would you prefer QBing behind an OL made up of you and your buddies? Protection matters and the qualities that really shine behind shoddy pass pro are both physical (quick release, mobility) and mental. I'm not sure whom I'd pick, and that includes Brady and Manning in the mix.

Patrick, take a look at the 2006 drive stats archived here: Indy had so few drives, that Manning had 2 full games worth of drives FEWER than Brees (who was ahead of him in the MVP voting). So in a 14 game season he put up comparable numbers to the next best QB's 16 game season. DVOA still liked him because of his high efficiency. This is in response to your initial comment in #80. If Ben keeps that kind of efficicency up, presumably his VOA will rise as well, even if traditional stats falter because of limited possessions. (and as you point out, his trad stats are enviable.)

by Dutch (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 5:22am

you obviosuly don' know Ben. He is a big time christian who would rather not travel to the whorehouse (playboy mansion) like Brady. The guy took all the blame for every loss last yr and never made an excuse even though their were many to make. Your also wrong on tihs caretaker stuff. Dude, if Ben is not a palyomaker, I do not know who is. He is behind a terrible pass blocking offensive line. Manning and Brady could not do what he is doing this yr, behind that line. Pittsburghs running game is being way overated as well. Take away 1 long run parkerhas each game and he's avg only 2.4 yards per carry in his last 6. He has a lot of rushing yards cause Ben is so damn efficient in the 1st half of games generally, that al lthey do is handoff in the later in the game. You need to actually watch a few steeler games. Ben is the playmaker. And his defense sits on the sideline and remains fresh while he completes 3rd downs by avg 11 ypa on third down. Palmer will never ever be better then ben. I make a living off of betign profesionally on sport. You on the other hand no nothing about football.

by oldnumberseven (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 8:57am

I suspect that 'Dutch' is actually a fan of Carson Palmer, and is trying the old reverse jinx. I hate the reverse jinx. I also find it amusing that people try to guess the personality of a guy they see in a cliche ridden five second interview. He is smug. He doesn't give a shit. He is a christianist! Pretty comical all around.

Quarterback-wise, to tell the truth, I would have to go with Favre any vintage. Say what you will, the fellow can throw the ball. Then, Manning, then Roethlisberger, then Palmer, then Brady, then Romo.

I never posted in the irrational Brady v. Manning thread, or read it. I like to keep an even keel, and not go off the deep end. I can only hope there will be a QB A v. QB B thread for every QB combination in the league and I never accidentally stumble into one.

by fiddycentbeer (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 11:14am

If VOA ignores sacks shrugged off, then it is ignoring Roethlisberger's greatest strength. It is true that he takes some unnecessary sacks, when looking to make the big play. It is equally true that he beats quick pressure several times a game. With the possible exception of Romo, no QB is in his League, in that regard.

The Steeler OL is horrendous. Ask yourself: how many teams would Colon, Simmons and Mahan start for? Dallas? NE? Indy? No, nope and hell no.

Situational? Roethlisberger has 56 PA on 3rd and 6 or greater. That is more than any QB but Favre and Anderson, both with 57. It should go without saying both of those have many more PA across all situations; so do most other top ranked QB. Anyway: Roethlisberger is averaging 10.91 YPA in that sitch and, last i looked, the PSO led the League in 3rd down conversions.

Here are Peyton Manning's numbers, for 3rd and 6 or more: 47 PA and 6.77 YPA

Over the years, DPAR and related have had little predictive value. For e.g: Kerry Collins was #3 in 2002; by 2004, the Giants were Eli's team. Kitna was #7 in 2003; by 2004, the Bengals were Palmer's team. Brees and Plummer were top 10 in both 2004 and 2005; by 2006, Rivers and Cutler had the reins.

On more: last year, a bad season for him, Roethlisberger finished 14th and 15th in DPAR and DVOA, respectively. This year, a good season for him, he ranks 13th and 14th.

I appreciate the effort to make adjustments based on level of competition. However, it seems there's some sort of rat in the works cuz, on the face of it, more than a few rankings have been nonsensical.

by Starshatterer (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 12:54pm

The Steeler OL is horrendous. Ask yourself: how many teams would Colon, Simmons and Mahan start for? Dallas? NE? Indy? No, nope and hell no.
Well, maybe some of those guys would start for Indy now...
/needling Colt fans

by B (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 1:09pm

90: Really, this guy?
89: I dunno, he seems like the kind of guy I'd like to hang out with (see above).

by B (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 1:09pm

Well, that didn't work right. Link in my name.

by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 1:37pm

Re: 92

I've seen some pretty asinine attempts to show how nonsensical FO's stats are, but you may have just taken the boobie-prize. Yay, that's "some sort of rat in the works" because the Giants and Broncos decided to replace QBs on the downside of their careers with #11 overall and #1 overall draft picks (both of whom are better then the veterans they replaced). Or maybe it's because Cincinnati decided to replace a career mediocre QB coming off a decent year with a #1 overall draft pick who's solidly in the discussion of "best QB in the league who doesn't have an irrational thread named in their honor". Or maybe it's because San Diego couldn't carry both Drew Brees and Philip Rivers on their roster so they decided to hold onto the guy they just traded the 1st overall pick for.

Back in 2005, Trent Green was the 4th ranked QB in DPAR and 7th in DVOA, and now he's out of football. And last year Damon Huard was ranked 8th in DPAR and 2nd in DVOA, and now he's backing up Brody Croyle. FO sucks at projecting the careers of Kansas City QBs!!

by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 1:39pm

Re: 95

That last picture made me lol.

by BadgerT1000 (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 1:39pm

I do want to mention that Favre was somewhat lucky on Sunday. He sailed more than a few passes and besides the obvious end zone interception turned TD by the Vikes ineptitude two other passes should have been picked off.

I stated at the beginning of the year to watch for Favre's legs to begin to betray him around week 10 and I stand by that comment. When his lower body tires he doesn't get a firm base and his accuracy goes from mediocre to to below average to poor pretty quick.

My guess is that barring the Packers getting some blowouts they are going to have to carry Favre the last six games or so. He finished poorly last year despite being in great shape and I see no reason to think that trend will change. Despite his efforts at conditioning he cannot defeat the affects of time.

Gets us all brother. Appreciate you trying.

by Bobman (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 5:57pm

97/95, He looks like the illegitimate love child of Russell Crowe and John Goodman. And a fun guy, to be sure. But if I were a fan, I'd sure hope that night was in March and not anywhere between about April and Feb. Maybe there's more Babe Ruth in him than anybody else.

Dutch, you misunderstood me--I FORMERLY thought of him as a caretaker, but the more I saw of him the more I came to respect his abilities. Thought I'd made that pretty clear.

by Wanker79 (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 6:44pm

Re: 99

And I'm pretty sure that Dutch has made it abundantly clear that whenever you see his name you can just skip to the next post. It's like trying to read RaiderJoe comments only without any of the unintentional humor.

by dryheat (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 6:48pm

Roethlisberger is clearly ranked too low because Ben has a BETTER CAREER 1st qtr passer rating. 4th qtr passer rating .higher yards per attempt. better 3rd down passing stats. In all the key areas, Ben pisses all over Palmer. Girlsonfootball.com's cute QB butts is way better than this. The restof the AFC NOrth b4etter start getting used to steeming hawt Roethlisbergers for the nxt 15 Yearzzz!

by dryheat (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 6:56pm

I don’t personally have the stats to back this up, but according to the announcers of the Steelers/Browns game, only the Patriots have a longer average ball-in-air average per pass.

Unless there's some cracked Paul Zimmerman wannabe who actually tracks pass hang-time, this reads like a silly untracked "statistic" that can neither be confirmed or denied.

Here’s a QB litmus test: Who would you prefer QBing behind an OL made up of you and your buddies? Protection matters and the qualities that really shine behind shoddy pass pro are both physical (quick release, mobility) and mental. I’m not sure whom I’d pick,

Interesting. I think the best QBs I've seen in recent years in adjusting to post-snap action (aka aw, shit plays) are Favre and Brady, probably in that order. I'd be honored to block for either...or kill them trying.

I make a living off of betign profesionally on sport. You on the other hand no nothing about football.

I'm guessing grammar tutor was the runner-up on the career path final results. I've never known a man who makes his living gambling to take such an emotional, personal stake in the sport as you do.

by Patrick (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 7:19pm

they don't time how long the ball is in the air,

but Stats inc. does track how many yards downfield each pass goes. espn.com, si.com, foxspots.com, etc. all have splits based on how far passes travel in the air.

by B (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 7:25pm

Passing yards and Yards after catch are now recorded in the play by play. It has a lot of scorer-bias, though. One of the game-charting projects is cleaning it up to get more accurate numbers.

by Bobman (not verified) :: Wed, 11/14/2007 - 8:23pm

#100 Thanks, W79, lesson learned.

#102, dryheat, is there an IM protocol for "Pissing in my pants laughing" (regarding your last comment)? PIMPL just looks, gross but not funny-gross, you know?

by dryheat (not verified) :: Thu, 11/15/2007 - 10:59am

I don't know anything about the internets.