Eagles' Season Hinges on Jalen Hurts' Shoulder

Philadelphia Eagles QB Jalen Hurts
Philadelphia Eagles QB Jalen Hurts
Photo: USA Today Sports Images

NFL Divisional - The Philadelphia Eagles are a much better team than the New York Giants and should win comfortably in the divisional round. Join us next week as we look at Philadelphia's chances in the NFC Championship Game!

(Speaker walks offstage. Awkward murmuring breaks out in audience. Speaker soon returns to podium.)

I'm sorry, I have been informed that we are contractually obligated to explain why the Eagles are favored so strongly against the Giants, and how New York might be able to pull off the upset.

The "why" is pretty simple: almost everything a football team can do, the Eagles did it better than the Giants in 2022. They were better at passing and better at stopping the pass. They were better at rushing and better at stopping the run. They were better in the kicking game. On both sides of the ball, they were better in late-and-close situations and better on third downs. If you dig deep enough with your data mining, you'll strike some minutia that makes New York look like the superior team (the Giants offense ranked third in DVOA when pinned inside their own 20, but the Eagles were only 16th!), but Philadelphia's overall dominance is obvious and plain.

The "how," on the other hand, starts to get interesting, because the Eagles were not the same team in the second half of the year that they had been in the first half. On both offense and defense, they fared better on running plays, but much worse on passing plays. Their special teams improved, but in aggregate, they went from being the best team in the league to playing a clear notch below most of the other Super Bowl contenders.

Philadelphia Eagles In-Season DVOA Trends, 2022
Category Weeks 1-9 Rank Weeks 10-18 Rank
Pass Offense 36.9% 3 12.1% 17
Rush Offense 10.8% 4 19.8% 1
Total Offense 20.7% 3 9.9% 9
Pass Defense -28.7% 1 -0.9% 12
Rush Defense 6.6% 28 -8.3% 17
Total Defense -15.3% 3 -4.4% 13
Special Teams -3.2% 22 3.8% 7
Total DVOA 38.6% 1 18.0% 6

The task for Nick Siranni, then, is to get his team back to its early-season form, and a return to health from a variety of players would certainly help. Brian Daboll and the Giants, meanwhile, will try to make the Eagles play like they did after Halloween. Unfortunately, they already had two chances to do that and didn't come realistically close to a victory: Philadelphia clobbered New York 48-22 in Week 14, then led the Giants' backups 19-3 in Week 18 before a pair of Davis Webb fourth-quarter touchdowns gave New York a chance at an onside kick.

How can the Giants make the third time the charm? Well, that's what we're here to discuss.

For those who may be unfamiliar with the Football Outsiders stats, they are explained at the bottom of the page. Scroll down or click this link. Game charting data appears courtesy Sports Info Solutions, unless noted. All stats represent regular season only, except for weighted DVOA and anything else specifically noted.

DVOA -4.3% (21) 25.2% (3)
WEI DVOA 2.6% (17) 21.9% (5)
Giants on Offense
DVOA 7.1% (10) -9.7% (6)
WEI DVOA 13.1% (6) -5.9% (10)
PASS 20.2% (10) -15.5% (1)
RUSH 4.9% (7) -1.9% (21)
Eagles on Offense
DVOA 10.2% (29) 15.1% (3)
WEI DVOA 10.2% (29) 11.6% (7)
PASS 9.2% (22) 23.9% (9)
RUSH 11.6% (32) 15.4% (1)
Special Teams
DVOA -1.2% (22) 0.5% (13)

If you have FO+, you can click here to see all the matchup of DVOA splits for this game.


NYG Week-to-Week DVOA

Last week, we told you that the New York offense was built around quarterback runs and short passes. Sure enough, Daniel Jones ran 13 times for 81 yards against Minnesota in the wild-card round, and only four of his 31 passes qualified as deep balls (though he made them count, completing three of them for 88 yards).

Those rushing numbers are bad news for Philadelphia. The Eagles allowed opposing quarterbacks to run 74 times, sixth most in the league, and only Detroit and Miami allowed more rushing yards to quarterbacks than Philadelphia's 499. They were especially vulnerable to scrambles, giving up 303 yards; only Detroit gave up more. For his part, Jones has been effective this year on scrambles and designed runs alike.

The good news for the Eagles is that they fared much better against short passes, ranking 10th in DVOA. Mind you, they were even better against deep passes, ranking second behind (surprise!) Arizona.

Regardless, Jones is likely to throw a bunch of short passes, because that's what the Giants do. But who will he be throwing them to? By DVOA, the Eagles were sixth or better against WR1s, WR2s, and tight ends. However, they were 22nd against "other" wide receivers, and 24th against running backs. The Giants don't really have any "other" wide receivers right now though—Isaiah Hodgins had 105 yards against the Vikings, and Darius Slayton added 88, but the duo of Richie James and Lawrence Cager combined for five catches and only 35 yards.

This could mean a big day for Saquon Barkley, who caught five passes for 56 yards against Minnesota. Barkley's efficiency numbers weren't great (he was among the bottom 10 running backs in receiving DVOA), but he gets plenty of volume—his 76 targets in the regular season were sixth at his position and first on the team.

The other reason Barkley might have a big game is that Philadelphia's run defense, though improved, remains a relative liability; only one team left in the playoffs had a worse run defense this season. (Spoiler: we shall get to that team shortly.) The Eagles allowed seven of their last eight opponents to rush for 99 yards or more, a stretch that included losses to the Cowboys and Saints and uncomfortably close wins over non-playoff teams in the Colts, Packers, and Bears.

Does this mean the Eagles defensive line is a weakness? Of course not—it just means that they specialized in putting opposing quarterbacks on the ground, not stuffing runners at the line. Philadelphia finished with an adjusted sack rate of 11.2%, the highest in a couple of decades. Four different Eagles were at double-digits in sacks, led by the 16.0 of Haason Reddick, and they were the first defense to get 70 sacks since the 1989 Minnesota Vikings. For all those sacks, they were surprisingly low in pressure rate—outside the top 10, per SIS—but they still have a big edge here against a Giants offense that ranked 24th in adjusted sack rate and next to last in pressure rate allowed. Forget winning the game, the Giants should be handing off a lot just to keep Jones out of the blue tent.

As to the decline in Philadelphia's defense in the second half of the year, that can be explained by a series of personnel changes. The Eagles were 28th in run defense DVOA going into Week 10, and that was before they allowed the Washington Commanders to run for 152 yards in a 32-21 win, Philadelphia's first defeat of the season. That was enough for general manager Howie Roseman, who promptly signed veteran defensive tackles Ndamukong Suh and Linval Joseph. With the two combining for about 45 snaps per game, Philadelphia's run defense rose to respectability, if not dominance.

Unfortunately, that coincided with some severe injuries in the secondary that torpedoed the Eagles pass defense. Starting safety C.J. Gardner-Johnson missed five games with a lacerated kidney. Third corner Avonte Maddox, who averages more than 50 snaps per game, missed four weeks with a hamstring injury, then two more with a bad toe. (This explains some of Philadelphia's problems covering "other" wide receivers.) Josh Sweat, one of those four pass-rushers with 10-plus sacks, sat out Weeks 17 and 18 with a bad neck. Gardner-Johnson returned to the field in the season finale against the Giants, playing 100% of the snaps, while Sweat told the team's website that "I'll definitely be out there" for the divisional round. Maddox, however, has been ruled out for the game.

Taking all that in, the game plan for New York looks pretty simple:

  • Run as often as possible, using Barkley, Jones, and Matt Breida (who had a better rushing DVOA than Barkley, albeit on only 54 carries).
  • When they must pass, target Barkley and hope he can make something happen in space.
  • Critically, avoid negative plays and penalties so they have a chance on third downs. The Giants offense ranked much better than the Eagles defense on third/fourth down with less than 3 yards to go (fourth vs. 24th), but much worse with more than 6 yards to go (19th vs. first).

If they can do all that, they'll eventually get to the red zone—and that's the one part of the field where the Giants have a legitimate edge. New York was the best offense in football inside the opponents' 20, ranking first on passes and third on runs. The Eagles were 10th on defense in the red zone, but with even more extreme splits than usual—first on passes, next-to-last on runs. A run-heavy game plan is suggested for New York this weekend, but it's practically mandatory when they want to score touchdowns instead of field goals.

And they'll need to score a lot of touchdowns, because their defense is going to give up oodles of points.


PHI Week-to-Week DVOA

If the Eagles are healthy on offense, they're likely to bulldoze the Giants off the field. Really, it's that simple. It's not just that they're much better than New York, though they certainly are—despite their late-season slide, they finished sixth in weighted DVOA, while the Giants defense ranked 29th—but this is an especially bad matchup because Philadelphia's strengths are perfectly suited to attack the Giants where they are weakest. To wit:

  • The Eagles were by far the NFL's best rushing offense (the second-place Ravens were closer to the seventh-place Giants than they were to Philadelphia), while the Giants finished dead last in run defense.
  • Specifically, the Eagles excelled at reeling off 10-yard runs, ranking second in second-level yards; the Giants defense ranked 29th in that same category.
  • Philadelphia was most effective running right up the middle, ranking fourth in adjusted line yards between the tackles; the New York defense ranked next to last stopping those runs.
  • Those offensive line stats don't include quarterback runs, and Jalen Hurts ranked fifth at the position in rushing DYAR. The Giants didn't face a lot of quarterback runs (only 51, which put them in the bottom 10), but the runs they did allow averaged 7.1 yards apiece, third worst. And they are well aware of how dangerous a healthy Hurts can be—he ran seven times for 77 yards and a touchdown against them in the Week 14 win.
  • Should they choose to pass for some reason, the Eagles will have the edge their too, ranking ninth in pass offense DVOA while the Giants defense ranks 22nd.
  • A.J. Brown finished fourth or better among all players in receiving yards, yards per catch, and receiving touchdowns. That came with a high target volume, and so he was "only" 11th in DYAR, but he's still going to be a problem for a defense that ranked 22nd in DVOA against WR1s.
  • There's an even bigger mismatch at tight end, where Dallas Goedert ranked second at the position in yards per game as well as DYAR and DVOA. The Giants defense finished next to last in DVOA on targets to tight ends.
  • New York had the worst defensive DVOA on throws down the middle, where Jalen Hurts made the top 10 in DVOA. There's a lot of overlap in these last two bullet points, but it's not just Goedert—DeVonta Smith actually led Philadelphia with 104 DYAR on targets over the middle, while Brown's 357 over-the-middle yards were 100 more than any of his teammates.

So who has been hurt, and what will their status be for the playoffs? In the past tense, the biggest injury was to Goedert, who missed five games with a sprained shoulder. Hurts actually had a higher passing DVOA on throws to Goedert (82.3%) than to Brown (56.1%) or Smith (60.2%). (If these numbers seem high, remember that they are passing DVOA stats, so sacks are included in the baselines. Also, the Eagles are really good.) But Goedert returned to the lineup in Week 16 and has played at least 94% of Philadelphia's offensive snaps every week since, catching a dozen passes for 158 yards in those three games.

More concerning is the status of right tackle Lane Johnson, who missed the last two games of the year with a torn adductor in his groin. The injury will require surgery to repair, but Johnson is delaying that surgery until after the season, and has vowed to play in the divisional round.

This brings us to the midnight green elephant in the room: Jalen Hurts and his bum wing. The quarterback suffered a sprained shoulder in Week 15 against Chicago, and though he finished that game, he missed the next two entirely. With Philadelphia needing a Week 18 win to clinch home-field advantage and a first-round bye, he played through the pain and returned for the season finale against the Giants. The Eagles got the win they needed, but Hurts' -35.5% passing DVOA was his worst of the year, and it came against a New York team that was resting most of its starters. (That was part of a prolonged slump for Hurts, who had negative passing DVOA in five of his last six games, but remember that Goedert was also out for most of that timeframe.)

Hurts was a high-volume rusher all year, officially leading all quarterbacks with 165 carries (though he falls behind Justin Fields when you remove kneeldowns) and joining Lamar Jackson in 2019 as the only players with 400 passes and 150 runs in the same season. That's an average of 11.0 carries per game, and he had nine in that Week 18 win, but again, that includes kneeldowns. When he was actually trying to go forward, Hurts had five runs for 17 yards—15 yards on four scrambles, and 2 yards (and a third-and-1 conversion) on one designed run.

That last number shows a serious change in Philadelphia's game plan; Hurts led all quarterbacks with 101 designed runs in 2022, with five games where he carried the ball on designed runs at least 10 times. Many of those designed run were sneaks; 39 of them came with 1 or 2 yards to go. But the read-option and RPO were also major parts of the Philadelphia game plan; Hurts had 29 designed runs on first-and-10, second at the position behind Taysom Hill (who barely counts as a quarterback, at least not in the conventional sense). Those elements were practically removed from the playbook in Week 18, and it remains to be seen how the Eagles will protect their quarterback with a week's rest.

For the sake of argument, let's assume everyone is healthy. Is there a reason for the Giants to bother showing up on Saturday? Well, they do like to blitz (a league-high 39.7% of the time, according to Pro Football Reference), and that's the best way to limit the Eagles passing game. Hurts has a -0.3% DVOA and is averaging 6.1 yards per play against blitzes, compared to 34.9% DVOA and 7.8 yards per play when not blitzed. If New York can survive first and second downs, the ensuing battle could be a stalemate—the Giants defense ranked seventh in third downs, the Eagles offense fifth, and the two teams were evenly matched in short-, middle-, and long-yardage third downs. And though they were only 22nd in adjusted sack rate, New York was awfully good at generating pressure, ranking eighth in pressure rate. Mind you, the Philadelphia offense was no pushover, ranking 11th in pressure rate allowed, but beggars can't be choosers.

This entire section may seem awfully harsh on a team that just won a playoff game, but it's not as if the New York defense played well last week. The Giants allowed the Vikings to score 24 points and failed to force a single turnover (which was a trend—they only forced 19 turnovers all season, including a league-low six interceptions). They finished with a defensive DVOA of 19.6%, their worst in the last five weeks, since a loss to … the Philadelphia Eagles.


The Giants had poor special teams in 2022, but they were essentially a non-factor in the wild-card round. Graham Gano nailed all four of his extra points and his only field goal try, a 25-yarder. (Gano was third in field goal value this year, the best part of the Giants special teams.) Jamie Gillan averaged 45.0 yards on a pair of punts. Between them, New York and Minnesota averaged 21.5 yards on kickoff returns and 5.7 yards returning punts. YAWN.

And speaking of yawning, the Eagles were 13th in our special teams rankings. Their best special teamer was Jake Elliott, who went 20-for-23 on field goals and 51-for-53 on extra points. (Philadelphia's numbers are boosted here by Cameron Dicker, who drilled two field goals and two extra points for the Eagles in Week 5 before joining the Chargers.) Their worst were Arryn Siposs (out since Week 14 with an ankle injury, but he could return for the NFC Championship Game if the Eagles get there) and Brett Kern, who combined for a net average of 38.2 yards per punt, second worst in the league. But returners Britain Covey and Boston Scott, as well as the kick coverage teams, were all pretty ordinary.


This has been a tremendous season for the New York Giants. Many experts predicted them to get the first overall draft pick (and some of those experts, including this writer, work for Football Outsiders), but here they are in the divisional round of the playoffs for the first time since they won the Super Bowl in 2011. Full credit to them for overachieving, but overachieving seasons usually end in brutal fashion in the postseason. If the Giants can run effectively, convert third downs, and trade touchdowns for field goals, they can pull off an upset. But if they have trouble with any of those things, and they should fall behind, and Daniel Jones has to play catch-up, against this pass rush…

The Philadelphia Eagles, for all their issues, remain a much better team than the New York Giants, and they should win comfortably in the divisional round. Join us next week as we figure out if they are good enough to win in the NFC Championship Game.





DVOA (Defense-adjusted Value Over Average) breaks down each play of the season and compares it to the NFL average based on situation and opponent. You'll find it explained further here. Since DVOA measures ability to score, a negative DVOA indicates a better defense and worse offense, and a positive DVOA indicates a better offense and worse defense.

Team DVOA numbers incorporate all plays; since passing is generally more efficient than rushing, the average for passing is actually above 0% while the average for rushing is below 0%.

SPECIAL TEAMS numbers are different; they represent value in points of extra field position gained compared to NFL average. Field goal rating represents points scored compared to average kicker at same distances. All special teams numbers are adjusted by weather and altitude; the total is then translated into DVOA so it can be compared to offense and defense. Those numbers are explained here.

Each team is listed with DVOA for offense and defense, total along with rush and pass, and rank among the 32 teams in parentheses. (If the DVOA values are difficult to understand, it is easy to just look at the ranks.) We also list WEIGHTED DVOA (WEI DVOA), which is based on a formula which drops the value of games early in the season to get a better idea of how teams are playing now (explained here).

Each team also gets a chart showing their performance this year, game-by-game, according to total DVOA. In addition to a line showing each game, another line shows the team's trend for the season, using a rolling average of the last five games. Note that even though the chart appears in the section for when each team has the ball, it represents total performance, not just offense.


50 comments, Last at 23 Jan 2023, 8:45am

#1 by JS // Jan 20, 2023 - 10:32am

I would never say that the injuries didn't matter, but my guess is that the fact the Eagles started so well, and developed such a big lead in the division - and conference - was another reason they didn't play as well in the second half. Football is a physically demanding game, and most teams lay an egg or two during the season, or have a lull somewhere. Even when you think you are trying your hardest, or feel you are "up for the game," or whatever, it's almost impossible to be really locked in every week. The Eagles got off to a great start early in the season and were playing with a lot of excitement and joy with how good they were, but that can't be sustained all year, especially when the need to win isn't quite there.

But now it's the playoffs. It's gonna be a long day for the Giants.

Points: 0

#2 by whocares4 // Jan 20, 2023 - 12:08pm

Yes, this ties in to the fact that Nick Sirianni turtles with the lead. It's impossible to say whether this is an intentional (bad) strategy or simply a coaching defect but when his teams build a lead, they go to sleep and allow the other teams to hang around. It's been a hallmark of his career over the first two seasons. I think you're onto something where they seemed actively unconcerned with the Dallas and New Orleans games because they had such a big lead on the #1 seed and then in the Giants game they still came out insanely vanilla and seemingly unwilling to attack their opponent and play with urgency. They just seemed actively taking their foot off the pedal starting around the Bears game. There was talk of benching the starters *very* early in the season. This turtling is reflected both in the player's intensity on the field and the playcalling. (Just look at their notorious early season 2nd quarter vs. 2nd half splits.) It's something troubling but it's hard to know what it means and how concerning it is... because you've got to be capable of getting a HUGE lead in order to sit on it.

Points: 0

#15 by Jannifer316 // Jan 20, 2023 - 2:19pm

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Points: -5

#4 by KnotMe // Jan 20, 2023 - 12:34pm

Most teams turtle to some degree with a league.  And people complained about the Bills NOT doing it and going downfield.  It's like most coaching things...whatever strategy you pick is wrong if it doesn't work. 

I'm not a big believer in effort arguments unless it's really, really blatant.  I think it's just really hard to get everything right every game even if your trying.  And the league is set up to prevent large talent differentials like in the past so it' harder to overcome your own bad days

Points: 0

#8 by whocares4 // Jan 20, 2023 - 1:09pm

Well, DVOA, traditional stats and win/loss record all say this is happening and it's not happening for all teams (the Giants and 49ers, for pointed examples.) It's not whether it's happening that's up for debate, but the why.

Injuries are a part of it, no question. If you want to argue it's the biggest factor on the macro level (season-long turtling vs. in-game turtling) I'd be hard-pressed to argue with that.

But I personally also see it in the coaching - and this is why I'm hesitant about how to interpret it. Sirianni loves to lean on his running game in the 2nd half of games where the Eagles have a lead. The problem is that a 14 point lead isn't secure enough that you can revert to "kill the clock" mode as early as Sirianni does. But on the other hand, their running game is fantastic so the idea of trying to build a 21 point lead while simultaneously killing the clock isn't a bad coaching. And frequently it works out something like that. The game contracts, the scores gets close, the Eagles kill a lot of clock but ultimately put it away with a powerful drive or two late. And it's not even when they have a big lead necessarily, sometimes they hit the switch in a one-score game.

As for effort, it's not that I think the players are giving a bad effort, it's that Gannon explicitly says "don't give up a big plays, don't take risks, don't *attempt* big plays." In games where they have a lead, they sit back on their heels on defense in zones and try to keep everything in front of them. This is what I mean by their intensity evaporates - they've been coached to play with circumspection. It's frustrating to witness but again, it generally seems to work out for them. I dislike watching a Gannon defense but I can't argue with the results. (Until they lose a playoff game.)

These two things combine (entering kill the clock mode early, getting circumspect on defense) to cause late-game contraction with an amount of consistency that has been a subject of discussion around the team all year. And it's harder to prove, but there's no denying something about their attitude in regards to the final three games of the season was off, as far as effort and game-planning was concerned. They truly did not seem to be making a full effort to win - and it seemed to be an attitude coming top-down from the coaches.

So what I'm saying is the opposite of your point: it's working, but it seems like the wrong strategy and one that could easily come back to bite them.

Points: 0

#10 by Aaron Brooks G… // Jan 20, 2023 - 1:25pm

Sirianni loves to lean on his running game in the 2nd half of games where the Eagles have a lead. The problem is that a 14 point lead isn't secure enough that you can revert to "kill the clock" mode as early as Sirianni does. 

The Eagles are the best rushing team in the league.

They are almost as efficient running as they are at passing. There's essentially no efficiency hit when they start milking clock.

Points: 0

#16 by Oncorhynchus // Jan 20, 2023 - 2:27pm

They are almost as efficient running as they are at passing. There's essentially no efficiency hit when they start milking clock.

Well there is. Their season long rush EPA is 0.072, but split it by half and their 1st half rush EPA is .118 and 2nd half is 0.038. So still positive, but not nearly as strong. But that's not a bad thing. I'd argue if you're looking at whether "milking the clock" is a good strategy or not, you shouldn't be looking at per play stats - you should be looking at per drive stats. 

And honestly they're not wonderful. 57% ended in a punt, a turnover, or downs. 43% in a score or the end of game. And they have more 2nd half drives than 1st half (84 vs 82).

53% of their first half drives ended in a score or end of half. 47% in punt, turnover or downs.

Pass ratio in first half is about 60/40, in second half about 45/55.

Points: 0

#24 by whocares4 // Jan 20, 2023 - 4:51pm

Yeah and this is what I mean by "turtling" in the second half. They stick with the run even when it's not working so great. Again, their run game is good enough that can usually get a drive or two to seal the game but there's no question something happens to the team in the second half.

But I think the main problem is that they go to the clock-kill/run too early. This is purely subjective but it always feels like 2 or 3 drives before they should be acting like they have the thing in hand. Same thing with pulling starters.

Points: 0

#26 by Pat // Jan 20, 2023 - 5:02pm

it's that Gannon explicitly says "don't give up a big plays, don't take risks, don't *attempt* big plays."

Totally disagree. Philly's got the NFL's leader in interceptions (on a fraction of a season!) for a reason - because the players are allowed to take risks and go after big plays. It's the entire reason you run zone match rather than man technique.

They've dropped off significantly in the latter half specifically because the guy at the playmaking position in quarters (the weakside safety, usually in a Trix call when the opponent's in a 3x1 alignment) was injured, and love on Reed Blankenship all you want, he's not Gardner-Johnson. The weak side safety ends up being able to break and make a play on the ball because he tends to be the "looking for work" one most often.

It's just injuries. The dropoff from Philly's starting 5 DBs (well, 4 really) to their backups is gigantic. Slay, Maddox, Bradberry, Gardner-Johnson are all probably top 10-16 at their positions. Epps isn't great but the strong-side safety is less athletically demanding (you're not being asked to cover a guy on the opposite side of the field).

But then when you get to backups, there's just no talent there. At all. They're total roster filler or projects.

Points: 0

#22 by Pat // Jan 20, 2023 - 4:41pm

I've heard this plenty from Eagles fans. They said the same thing in Week 18. Actually in week 17, too.

I don't really buy it. Those injuries sucked. Bad. Obviously losing Hurts is super-ultra terrible, but Lane's injury and the secondary injuries were really, really bad. Lane's obvious. He's arguably the best tackle in the league. Duh. That's partly why I think the offense will be fine, and while I think they'll still win.

The defense is a bigger issue. The issue with Philly's secondary is that it's fragile. Before the season, I was *terrified* about their secondary, because, on paper, it was abysmal. An elite CB and an average starter plus... well, that's basically it. Then they added Bradberry and CJGJ (on one year rentals mind you, neither of them are long-term solutions), and now they suddenly had a high-end NFL secondary... so long as no one got injured.

Because, I mean, I know Philly fans are like, excited about rookie UDFA Reed Blankenship, and he's played well usually, but he's a UDFA rookie. The longer guys like that are out there, the more teams see the mistakes they make and exploit them. Same goes for Josiah Scott and god knows who else they have to trot out there.

With Maddox out they're still weak at nickel but it's at least not the dumpster fire it was in previous weeks.

Points: 0

#25 by whocares4 // Jan 20, 2023 - 4:57pm

You're being a little dishonst about what you've been saying "all season long." You've very explicitly argued that they're relying too much on old guys. Now that it's young guys like Maddox and CJGJ who are getting injured that part of it has disappeared. I don't think the Eagles have worse depth than most teams, they just have better starters across the board. Driscoll is actually excellent as far as backups go. It's just that Johnson is a borderline HOFer. Maddox is probably a Top 5 nickel and Scott is... a C-/D+ nickel backup (he's better on the outside) which isn't great but isn't abnormal. Especially since the Eagles had CJGJ to cover for injuries at CB if needed. So basically they had the worst-case scenario for depth on defense happen: Maddox *and* CJGJ get injured. 

But Cox, Graham and whoever else was old being the problem like you predicted isn't true. They were a very good team with great injury luck, won a lot of easy games. They had average injury luck and had to tough out a lot of close games and had a few close loses. Their roster construction is very usual/sustainable. (For this year.)


Points: 0

#28 by Pat // Jan 20, 2023 - 5:11pm

You're being a little dishonst about what you've been saying "all season long." You've very explicitly argued that they're relying too much on old guys. 

That's one of the criticisms I had. Not the only one. Seasons aren't just one story: Philly went through issues at DL and issues at DB, separately.

Now that it's young guys like Maddox and CJGJ who are getting injured that part of it

Maddox/CJGJ getting injured just exposes the fact that Philly has a thin secondary. Which is what I said before the season. Before they got Bradberry and CJGJ (which happened late), I was literally saying "why are people saying Philly's going to be good this season, their secondary is beyond horrendous." Because it was. Bradberry and CJGJ made the starting 5 a top-end secondary, but behind them is just filler.

and Scott is... a C-/D+ nickel backup 

I'm sorry, I just totally disagree. He's just roster filler. He's a late round pick they traded GM candy for because they have no money to sign anyone of merit (edit: and whiffed on their own DB picks, which were few and far between anyway).

I mean by PFF grades for instance, the dropoff from Slay, Bradberry, CJGJ, Maddox to... anyone else is just absolutely massive.

Points: 0

#30 by whocares4 // Jan 20, 2023 - 5:21pm

Yes, every team in the league has signifcant drop-off between their All-Pros and their backups. I'm not even sure what you're arguing? That they shouldn't have brought in Bradberry... so that they'd have a better player in Josiah Scott's role? You're determined to dig in on the roster issues, but their roster is completely normal. It's *not* a Stars n' Scrubs roster like the Chiefs and Cowboys - those rosters have huge holes in STARTING roles because of paying the big bucks to stars. And if you think Dallas and the Chiefs are fielding better back-up nickel corners than Josiah Scott, I'd actually find that level of commitment to wrong-headedness charming. Their *starting* nickels are barely better than Scott.

Points: 1

#41 by Pat // Jan 20, 2023 - 7:06pm

Their *starting* nickels are barely better than Scott.

Dallas already lost their starting nickel for the season, and their backup corner's been doing great.

Points: 0

#33 by Aaron Brooks G… // Jan 20, 2023 - 5:46pm

Maddox/CJGJ getting injured just exposes the fact that Philly has a thin secondary

No one has secondary-depth. Philly is unusual in that every expected starter is good.

Basically, there's no one on the Lions who would start for Philly's secondary.

Points: 0

#38 by Pat // Jan 20, 2023 - 6:40pm

Not every one, Epps is meh. But he's the least critical position in the secondary. But it's the drop from the starters that matters - Philly goes from $10+M/yr value over replacement to zero-to-negative.

And normally when you start to get thin in the secondary and you're a contender, you go and start grabbing vets, but Philly's broke - they burnt everything on Joseph/Suh. So it's like "uh... roll with what we got, guys!" (Compare this year to the Year of Start Some Random Guy In the Secondary).

Also I'm not saying Philly's like, abnormal or anything. Every team has weak and strong positions. They just don't have any young talent at DB because they haven't drafted anyone serious for years (again: the fanbase cheers for Reed Blankenship are just amazing) and the few fliers they threw out haven't panned.

Points: 0

#29 by whocares4 // Jan 20, 2023 - 5:18pm

(I'm also curious which games were the "dumpster fires" to you? The Saints game where they held their opponent to 13 points on defense or the Bears game where they held their opponent to 13 points minus a Fields miracle scramble. Because they looked way worse bumbling around against the Giants backups in week when you're saying they righted the ship. I'm going to give you enough credit to assume you don't mean the blowout of the Giants or Titans after CJGJ went down are part of the "dumpster fire." If you mean the Cowboys game, well then you're agreeing with those plebian Eagles fans you want to disparage - outings like that are why no one has any confidence in a Gannon-orchestrated defense, regardless of what the advanced stats say.)

Points: 0

#36 by Pat // Jan 20, 2023 - 6:29pm

I didn't mean the defense looked like a dumpster fire, I meant the secondary did. On the whole they've been completely solid throughout the year, it's just rotating where the problems are. Which is what you expect. That's an NFL season, you're constantly trying to keep a collapsing house upright.

If you mean the Cowboys game, well then you're agreeing with those plebian Eagles fans you want to disparage - outings like that are why no one has any confidence in a Gannon

Why? Maddox went down in the Cowboys game.

Points: 0

#5 by theslothook // Jan 20, 2023 - 12:37pm

A more interesting thought experiment for me is, would I still pick Philly even if I knew Hurts was injured and going to play badly due to his shoulder? Given that Philly is basically superior at everything to the Giants, my answer is probably still yes.

Points: 1

#12 by Dales // Jan 20, 2023 - 1:29pm

A thought experiment based on that. Given that on offense, the Eagles have an advantage at every non-QB position excepting LT (a Giants advantage, albeit not a huge one) and RB, is Hurts a better QB? How much has Hurts' production this year been helped by having AJ Brown instead of Isaiah Hogins, Smith instead of Slayton, Goddert (when healthy) instead of Bellinger (when healthy), being protected by Dickerson instead of Gates/Bredeson, Kelce instead of Feliciano, Seumalo instead of Glowinski, Johnson instead of Neal?

I'd say those have all mattered quite a bit to Hurts' level of production. And with the surrounding cast differences, on a per game basis, Hurts had roughly 45 yards more passing, half a passing touchdown, one third of a single sack fewer, 6 more rushing yards, and half a rushing TD. Comparable completion percentages, attempts,  interception rates, sack yards lost.

Given every single Eagle receiver is meaningfully better than the Giants counterpart and 4/5ths of the offensive line is significantly better as well, I'd expect bigger gaps in all of those. Hell, I'd bet that if you only replaced Hodgins with Brown, the increase in production for the Giants would be more than 500 yards and 7 touchdowns. That's the gap between their passing, and that's just one positional difference addressed.

I think the Giants have the QB advantage here even if Hurts is 100%, and I'll bet Jones has a better future career. I mean none of this as a slight to Hurts, as I have always been a fan of his stretching back to how he handled himself at Alabama and worked himself into a stud at Oklahoma. I think he's very good, but defying the odds, I think Jones has developed into a legitimately very good quarterback himself.

Points: -2

#13 by theslothook // Jan 20, 2023 - 2:04pm

I've been a Jones defender around here to the point of taking random nasty comments about it.

I bet if you polled FO readers about where Jones was at the start of the year; he'd probably fall in the Trubisky camp or maybe the Teddy B camp of QBs - basically a below average player you only play when your starter is out. I was higher than that on him, but if I am being honest, I probably had him somewhere around Andy Dalton type of QB. 

After this season in which I still don't think the talent around him, especially at receiver, is all that great; hes shown enough to be part of that tier 3 mix of QBs - which puts him in company with Ryan Tannehill and Stafford but also with guys like Goff(fresh off a probowl snub). That seems like a compliment, but these are also the QBs that notoriously get their coaches and now coordinators fired. 

All that to say, could Jones make another leap and get out of this crowded tier or maybe get to the very top of it? Its possible but I'd need to see it first. His bad moments are shockingly bad.

Points: 0

#14 by Dales // Jan 20, 2023 - 2:18pm

Mostly the same, including preseason view. Right now I have Jones mentally slated somewhere in the 7th best to 15th best, interestingly enough about where I had Eli most of his career.


My main questions with him are, is he done improving, and can a guy who runs like him stay healthy long term. 

Points: -1

#17 by Dales // Jan 20, 2023 - 2:31pm

BTW the best part of Jones' (apparent) growth is that right now he is damned fun to watch and has been for long enough that I think that part of him might stick.


We've been boring for too long.

Points: -1

#37 by mansteel // Jan 20, 2023 - 6:31pm

His bad moments are shockingly bad

That was true before this year, and in fact even in the first 2 games this year, but not since. Lowest INT rate in the league, and the ones he did throw were sort of run-of-the-mill. He seems to have learned how to take care of the ball when he get hit while running as well (though I'd really love to see him slide more often).

...could Jones make another leap...?

We'll see, but his main deficiency this year was not throwing down the field. I think that has a lot less to with his arm/deep accuracy than the O-Line--especially Evan Neal--and the fact that the Giants don't have a WR who can make contested catches downfield...or even uncontested catches downfield in some cases. Get him a true WR1 and...well, we won't know until/unless it happens, but there is reason for hope.

Points: 0

#44 by Dales // Jan 20, 2023 - 7:56pm

Pizzuta at Sharp Football has an article today on the subject of Mr. Jones. He brought up Daboll saying a few times how deep opportunities were being missed/left on the table and then looked at the film of the game in question. It was pressure related, so yeah, that's part of it.


Another part he goes into a bit is how Jones had a habit of throwing into really tight windows and on deep throws windows are usually tighter. So Daboll and Kafka dialing back on those to limit turnovers can't be ruled out. But if so, we will likely see more deep shots soon, perhaps this week. Throws like this make me think that they've been holding back. Throws like that also make me think they shouldn't. He throws from the 29 yard line to the far right back corner of the end zone where only his WR could make a play on it, with timing. A hard catch, but one most WR1s make, as Schneier notes. I love Slay as a 2 or 3, not a 1.


The line has their work cut out for them, but it's do or die time, and if they manage to win it doesn't get any easier. If somehow they do manage to hold their own, I think we are going to see more deep throws than we have been.

Points: 0

#47 by Oncorhynchus // Jan 20, 2023 - 8:38pm

Lowest INT rate in the league, and the ones he did throw were sort of run-of-the-mill. 

We'll see, but his main deficiency this year was not throwing down the field.

So you're telling me his interception rate went down along with his average depth of target?

Wow. That's almost as surprising as the time I learned that drownings are correlated with proximity to water.

Points: -1

#18 by Oncorhynchus // Jan 20, 2023 - 2:34pm

If you think Hurts' production is solely due to his skill players, I really encourage you to go re-watch the Saints game.

I'd say those have all mattered quite a bit to Hurts' level of production. And with the surrounding cast differences, on a per game basis, Hurts had roughly 45 yards more passing, half a passing touchdown, one third of a single sack fewer, 6 more rushing yards, and half a rushing TD. Comparable completion percentages, attempts,  interception rates, sack yards lost.

Two things: 1) Hurts also has 2 fewer games. So he has more yards and more tuddies with <90% of the playing times. 2) Look at the thread immediately above this one. Sirriani turtles in the 2nd half when he has the lead. Hurts not only played fewer games than Jones, he also played fewer minutes competitively.

Edit: I forgot Webb played Week 18. So it's 1 fewer game for Hurts. Still the point matters. 

Points: 0

#19 by Dales // Jan 20, 2023 - 2:41pm

"If you think Hurts' production is solely due to his skill players"


Since the "if" part you started with isn't answered with a "yes"...

The question I am asking is how much of the gap in production is due to his skill players and offensive line, relative to those Jones plays with.

[edited to add]

"Two things: 1) Hurts also has 2 fewer games."

One fewer (I see you added that at the end). This is why I used per-game averages until I switched over to considering the delta between Brown and Hodgins (and so forth).

"2) Look at the thread immediately above this one. Sirriani turtles in the 2nd half when he has the lead." Hurts not only played fewer games than Jones, he also played fewer minutes competitively."

Hurts averaged *one* more attempt per game. So, if turtling was limiting his production, so was the Giants' D's inability to get off the field limiting Jones'. The Giants surrendered ~1000 more yards than did the Eagles, and forced a third fewer turnovers. To the extent the Eagles stopped passing to milk the clock, it had the side effect of making the two players' number of passing opportunities the same.


Points: 0

#20 by theslothook // Jan 20, 2023 - 3:02pm

I will come off as a Hurts hater, but to me, Hurts is yet another young Qb having a really good season on a really good team. Every time that happened, I heard endless amounts of optimism with typical comparisons to superstar hall of fame QBs.

Hurts could be really good. He could also be Jared Goff; a player that lives multiple career arcs season to season. We just don't know. Yet Tanier is already proclaiming that the Eagles need to back up the brinks truck to his doorstep. Nevermind that that decision looked like an epic blunder for both the Eagles with Wentz and the Rams with Goff. 

It all comes back to the land of that wonderful question. If Hurts never takes that next step and remains a tier 3 qb, do you pay him huge money regardless? If the answer is yes; then I suppose this isn't an interesting topic. But if not; then I think waiting a year makes sense. 

Points: 0

#21 by Dales // Jan 20, 2023 - 3:16pm

If I was the GM, I pay the man. I think we fans are getting spoiled by how many incredible young talents there are right now. It's like it was in the 80s- superstars seemingly abundant to find. I don't think there is a reason to believe this to be the new normal and give it five years and there will be another 10 guys as good as those in the top two tiers. If there is even going to be one new one a year strikes me as unlikely, so if you have a guy you could win with, I think you hold on tightly.

Pre-season, I was glad the Giants didn't exercise the option on Jones. Now, I think we'd be foolish to let him go, even if I think the odds he gets to tier one are somewhere between slim and none, and to tier two unlikely (but not impossible). I feel the same with Hurts and the Eagles.

But if I was a middling team lacking a current stud and had the opportunity to get either of them for a roughly similar price, I'd (a) jump at the chance and (b) prefer Jones.


Points: 0

#23 by ImNewAroundThe… // Jan 20, 2023 - 4:48pm

Preferring the worse athlete, grading worse (aka not what the other players are doing) with a shorter adot sure is something. 

Points: 0

#31 by Dales // Jan 20, 2023 - 5:24pm


The beauty of this debate is we can look back in a few years and see how it played out. But to address your three points in order:

Athleticism isn't the be-all and end-all for quarterbacks. If it was, I'd prefer Jones (and Hurts) to Burrow, and I do not. Besides, the gap between Hurts and Jones in athleticism is not particularly huge. Hurts has faster acceleration and agility, Jones has higher top-end speed and strength. Both are extremely athletic.

Grading, you are talking PFF or similar? I disagree with the notion that they isolate from what other players are doing well and are not consistent from grader to grader-- a view that has nothing to do with Jones or Hurts.

adot has a ton to do with scheme, protection and ability of receivers to stretch the field, so see above. 

Peace out.

Points: 0

#32 by ImNewAroundThe… // Jan 20, 2023 - 5:38pm

I dont see much beauty in arguing Sam Howell vs Trevor Lawrence.

Combine all three (Jones is schemed this way because he's a turnover machine without it and no he isn't stronger or have higher top end speed, Hurts ran .22 faster in the 40 at a higher weight) and your arguing for Howell.

But hey if your struggling to tell the difference because of just this years teams despite 5 other seasons to look at...idk what to tell ya. I guess the peace out would point to you struggling to explain further.

Points: 0

#46 by Dales // Jan 20, 2023 - 8:20pm

Turnover machine who has cut interceptions from 12 to 10 to 7 to 5. That's a trend, my troll friend.

Oh, the fumbles? 19 to 10 to 7 to 6. That is also trend. 

And both trends have him to where he is tight with the ball, far from a turnover machine. That's your old guy, now down in Washington. 

As for top end speed, an Eagles fan should probably remember the play where he had a TD against ya except he just tripped over a turf monster. Let's quote Sports Illustrated on that: "He hit a top speed of 21.23 mph, the fastest by a quarterback since 2018 (which was Jackson’s rookie year)." There is a reason one of his nicknames is Vanilla Vick. It's not because of his jukes. Nor it is because of his dogs but that's a whole separate discussion.

Points: -1

#49 by ImNewAroundThe… // Jan 21, 2023 - 8:31pm

Yes turnover machine whos adot keeps getting cut. Not that surprising. 

But yes, Jones is faster than Hurts, even though he was .22 behind in the 40 (while 1lb lighter) but Jones passes him at about 55 yards in an 80 yard dash which is very relevant and comes around often for QBs. Jones, at worst, top 2 fastest player in the league. Top 3 all time with only Vick in front for sure. That's how he got the silly nickname!

You see that first drive by Hurts? Maybe watch it again.

Actually watch the whole game and come back to me (lol as if that'll happen) and say you'd take Jones over Hurts with a straight face. 

Points: 0

#34 by Aaron Brooks G… // Jan 20, 2023 - 5:48pm

Athleticism isn't the be-all and end-all for quarterbacks. If it was...

...Brady and Manning wouldn't be leading the GOAT argument.

Their 40 times are "yes."

Points: 1

#39 by Oncorhynchus // Jan 20, 2023 - 6:45pm

I'm an Hurts fan and an Eagles fan, but my enthusiasm/optimism is somewhat tempered. I agree, there's a chance he might be more like Goff where he needs strong supporting cast. But there is no QB, not even Patrick Mahomes, who doesn't need at least some top-tier skill players. Still even if he's just Goff-tier, that's not bad. He'll be a top-5 QB in the NFC right up there with Prescott, Goff, Cousins, and ... Jones? Murray? (Rodgers and Brady are done - they just don't know it yet). 

There's also a chance he'll still develop into something more like at top-8 QB in the NFL on the same tier as some of the 1b QBs in the AFC. For that reason, Howie should definitely sign him to an extension ASAP. Give him a top-8 QB contract immediately after the season (try to get it done before Lamar Jackson, Jones and Geno) and watch it quickly become a top-15 QB contract. 

You called the Wentz deal an epic blunder, but I think you're wrong. Howie got that signed before Goff signed his. He signed him to 32m/ APY contract. At the time that's was the 4th highest APY behind the recently re-signed Russell Wilson (2019 35m), Roethlisberger (2019 - 34m) and Rodgers (2018 - 33.5m). That immediately dropped to 5th when Goff signed. He quickly dropped to 8th when Cousins, Watson and Mahomes resigned in 2020. So if the early bet had paid off that Wentz was a franchise QB that very quickly becomes a genius move in terms of having a good QB for cheap. Instead the Eagles got a 1st round draft pick, a 33m dead cap hit, and a playoff game last year. This year they're the 1 seed.

The Rams meanwhile got a Superbowl trading Goff and picks. But the Lions got the better end of that deal! They've got a top-5 QB in the NFC and they only have to pay him 30m next year! Kyler Murray is getting 46m to play Call of Duty while he rehabs his ACL!  Dude, Goff is the 3rd highest paid QB in his conference - a conference the Lions have a very good chance to win next year. Meanwhile Matt Stafford is at home. Do you know why? Because Matt Stafford also needs a really good o-line and great skill players. 

Don't be like the Redskins or the Cowboys. If you have QB who you think is good enough to franchise tag, but you're not sure is good enough to be THE GUY, then you have a QB who is good enough to sign to a 4 year deal.

Points: 0

#43 by theslothook // Jan 20, 2023 - 7:30pm

Instead the Eagles got a 1st round draft pick, a 33m dead cap hit, and a playoff game last year. This year they're the 1 seed.

Much like the Rams winning the SB by trading for Stafford, I think that's more of good, results bad process. Tbh, most teams in that situation become like the Falcons and less like the current Eagles. I don't think any team should convince themselves that in the worst case scenario there will be some idiot patsy that you can use to snooker your way out of a bad situation.

The thing about the names you've listed - they are all very contingent on the supporting cast to a greater degree than anyone cares to admit when things are going well. Both Goff and Stafford have played on teams that ended up drafting in the top 5. And when the Vikings went on to win 6 games with Cousins; all anyone could talk about what how crappy his play was given the contract.

It all looks fine when your team is loaded and the Qb looks like an asset. When the team is bad; they cant wait to run out of town. That's why its a trickier situation than it appears.

Ultimately, since coaches don't survive more than two losing seasons usually; you really have no choice but to sign Hurts or whomever. I was leery of giving Kyler the money too; but the downside was there.

BTW; I keep wondering what the breaking point contract figure is where you are truly better off not paying these guys especially if Jackson's gambit means fully guaranteed becomes the new normal.

Points: 0

#50 by Pat // Jan 23, 2023 - 8:45am

Wentz's contract was structured so that he was tradeable: more fell on the Eagles, making him a low risk, high reward trade target. It wasn't bad process, it was totally an intentionally mitigated risk.

I mentioned when the Wentz extension happened that it was a crazy good deal on Philly's side. I actually thought it was a sign the QB market was slowing. Prescott's contract blew that up.

Extend early, keep the contract tradeable, trade off if you have doubts.

Points: 0

#6 by KnotMe // Jan 20, 2023 - 12:43pm

Blueprint for the Giants to win the SB:

1) Turns out Hurts actually is injured. exploit that for the win.

2)Dallas beats the Niners, then remembers they are Dallas in the next game. 

3)Critical injury to AFC opponent in conf game.

4)Magic in the SB





I don't think it will happen but the Giants have had Vikings style luck in the postseason at times. 

Points: 1

#7 by Dales // Jan 20, 2023 - 1:05pm

Let me start by saying "I fully expect the Eagles to win."

I will also say, the Giants defense is still not a team strength.

However, the defensive talent is seriously upgraded from what it was in week 14. Williams is back, so the number of double teams Lawrence will face will be lower. The Giants corners were Nick McCloud and Cordale Float, and this time will be Adoree Jackson and Darnay Holmes. Xavier McKinney is back. Jarrad Davis and Landon Collins have been added to the linebacker mix. 

On offense, Barkley was dealing with a neck injury and had no full participation practices heading into that game. But probably the biggest offensive difference is a new skill (for him) that Jones has been displaying, namely stepping forward in the pocket to escape and rolling right, eyes downfield. It was not something he used to do much at all, and now it is a frequently used tool and he does it well. 

Despite the offense being heavy on short passes, Jones is actually a strong deep thrower. It just hasn't been used much since his rookie year due to a combination of poor coaching (until this year), schemes (including this year), receiving talent, and especially line play. One thing the O has not been is predictable, and I'd not be shocked at all if this is the week Kafka unleashes the dragon, if the pressure seems to be being handled (a huge if).

Repeating what I started with: I fully expect the Eagles to win. However, I like the Giants chances more than most do and expect a much better game than week 14.


Points: 0

#9 by whocares4 // Jan 20, 2023 - 1:12pm

Yeah, the week 14 game also had weirdness like the botched punt that all seemed to go the Eagles' way and deflate the Giants early. Week 14 felt more like "all the bounces go one way, including injury luck" as much as it felt like "superior team lays a beatdown."

Points: 1

#11 by Aaron Brooks G… // Jan 20, 2023 - 1:29pm

For Giants

  1. Hurts is... hurt.
  2. Never get behind schedule
  3. You take absolutely no o-line penalties (see #2)
  4. Receive at least one brutally blown call in your favor. Ideally two or more, especially if it involves a turnover.

That's basically how to beat Philly.

Points: 1

#27 by whocares4 // Jan 20, 2023 - 5:03pm

This plays into what you're saying but also: Don't abandon the run in the first 2 and a half quarters, no matter what. You want to shorten the game and force Philly's run defense to consistently prevent 3 or 4 yard gains, which they're not capable of doing. They should go for it on 4th and 3 or shorter no matter what, anywhere on the field. Washington really did give everybody the blueprint. They just kept running and running and running. Other teams just can't help but feel the need to throw in pass plays. Just forget it. Run and run and run and run with some play-action thrown in every 5 or so plays. If they do that, I think they'll be in it late in the 4th. 

Points: 0

#35 by Aaron Brooks G… // Jan 20, 2023 - 5:52pm

Washington really did give everybody the blueprint.

And it wouldn't have mattered had the refs not blown the worst fumble call in the NFL this past year, or if Watkins doesn't fumble at the end of a 50-yard completion.

They needed a perfect game plan, a huge amount of bouncing-ball luck, and still needed to back an armored truck up to the ref's locker room.

Points: 0

#40 by Oncorhynchus // Jan 20, 2023 - 6:54pm

Daniel: "Coach, they're up by 21, Saquon is getting like 3-4 yards per carry and there's 4 minutes left in the 2nd quarter, don't you think we should take some shots downfield?"

Daboll: "GODDAMNIT DANNY! Don't you read the FO comments? If whocares4 says keep running, then by-gum we gonna keep running. NO. MATTER. WHAT." 


NYPOST Sunday Morning:

Here lie the Giants, lords of time of possession.

Points: 0

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