Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

The Official Thread for Irrational Brady-Manning Arguments Part III

The original version of this thread first appeared back in July 2004 as a way to move all the Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning debate out of other discussions and into one place. We don't know why people have a tendency to lose their minds over this issue, but it really does take over every discussion thread if we let it. At one point, a discussion of the San Francisco 49ers' salary cap problems turned into a debate over Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. Every time the Colts play the Patriots, we are in danger of this site becoming all Brady-Manning all the time. Therefore, Football Outsiders has two hard and fast rules:

1) Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are tied for the title of best quarterback in football.
2) Any discussion of whether one is better than the other must go in this thread, and will be deleted from all other discussion threads.

The original thread, with a longer discussion of the whole Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning problem, is here. Note that roughly 800 comments are missing from that thread, because we had to clean out old comments to try to solve some of the server issues. We did archive them and are working on a way to bring all older comments back without filling the comment database.

Part II, posted during the 2006 regular season game between New England and Indianapolis, is here.

Disclaimer: This discussion is far, far sillier than the other discussion threads on this site, and it is meant to be. The rest of the website is not like this.


by Greg (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:52pm

Manning IS overexposed, and I've never been a huge fan, but I for one am rooting for him to shock the world by throwing for about 500 yards and 6 TD's in a complete rout this weekend. I admire Belichick and Brady but Patriots fans have become a pretty insufferable bunch of late. They need the comeuppance of a completely unexpected and agonizing defeat.

by Dave (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:52pm

#299, here in San Diego, that theory is working for me.

by Jeremy (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:55pm


Doug Gabriel got cut because Jabar Gaffney passed him on the depth chart (for reasons that should be obvious given the last two weeks) and the Pats couldn't carry a fourth receiver who doesn't play special teams.

by Scott de B. (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 12:58pm

They need the comeuppance of a completely unexpected and agonizing defeat.

Then this is not the weekend for it, since they are, rightfully, underdogs. A defeat would not be unexpected.

by Greg (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 1:03pm

Then this is not the weekend for it, since they are, rightfully, underdogs. A defeat would not be unexpected.

Oh believe me, while the oddsmakers may have made them underdogs, the Pats fans I know are all convinced that there's no way they can possibly lose. It's not just confidence or even arrogance.. there's this intolerable smugness and sense of entitlement there. If the Colts win the game, Bill Simmons et. al. are going to be shocked even if the rest of us aren't.

by sippican (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 1:29pm

You know he's better, when you feel the need to root against him. He bugs you.

Why would anybody root against the hayseed? It's not worth the time. It's like rooting against a golfer. You're just sort of quiet, because he freaks out over any distraction, you know --like defense of any sort, and then he shanks it into the pond anyway.

You wouldn't be praying for a meteorite to hit Brady if Peyton Manning was any great shakes.

by Jeremy (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 1:29pm

Re 305:Oh believe me, while the oddsmakers may have made them underdogs, the Pats fans I know are all convinced that there’s no way they can possibly lose. It’s not just confidence or even arrogance.. there’s this intolerable smugness and sense of entitlement there. If the Colts win the game, Bill Simmons et. al. are going to be shocked even if the rest of us aren’t.

Let me try to shed some light on that. I consider myself to be a fairly even-handed Pats fan. I don't feel entitled to anything -- quite the contrary, actually. I feel insanely lucky to have been, in the past five years, on the right side of two of the most exhilarating, at times borderline mystical sporting achievements of the modern era (Pats over Rams, Red Sox over Yankees). I wish everyone could experience what I've experienced over that time, except that means my teams would have to lose and I'm not okay with that.

I generally feel jittery and stressed as big games approach. Yet this Patriots team, with Tom Brady and Richard Seymour leading the way, has consistently calmed me down early in the game. I find myself watching what they do and how they play and thinking (and saying), "I freaking love this team." I realize that it can come off as annoying to fans of other teams, but there's nothing I can do about that -- it's just fun to watch a team that consistently comes up with the big play.

And that's what it is: big plays. A lot of people say the Pats got lucky in San Diego. Well, no. Brady got lucky, but the Patriots didn't. The Patriots made a play.

Brady played like crap all day, but my god, on 3rd and 10 in a tied playoff game on the road against the top team in the league, he hit a freaking 49-yard bomb to yet another castoff receiver. I'm sorry that this is annoying for others to hear, but dammit, I love those guys. It takes something to make that play, and I'm glad they have it.

Last week, my brother and I both agreed that logically, the Pats should lose. San Diego was more talented (though not by as much as people were saying -- I mean, the Pats do have a lot of talent) and more rested, and they were playing at home. We knew all of that, and we agreed on this: gosh, it would be great if we could convince ourselves that the Pats were going to lose. And I don't say that with any smugness -- I certainly wouldn't have bet my life on it. But with what they've done over the past five years, I'm still surprised every time they lose a big game.

I feel the same way about this upcoming game. It's a huge challenge, an incredibly tough environment, and a capable opponent. I can envision many different ways that they could lose, even get blown out. But I just can't convince myself that they will. I wish I could -- it's much less stressful to root for a team in that position (SB36 was much, MUCH easier than SB38 and SB39 for that reason). But I can't.

by Casual Observer (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 1:49pm

"but Patriots fans have become a pretty insufferable bunch of late"

"Why would anybody root against the hayseed? It’s not worth the time."

"if Peyton Manning was any great shakes"

Your honor...the defense rests.

by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 1:56pm

289-That's actually a really good point.

297-That would be fun, although I think Mike Scifres should be in the argument instead of Lechler.

by Old Whippersnapper (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 2:12pm

Hey Yaguar--

When they start giving teams Lombardis for fantasy football, then Carson Palmer will be the "second best QB in football."

In the meantime, he will continue to be a choker who has never gotten it done against the better teams. And probably never will. He will continue to put up big numbers against small teams, then fade like a dry daisy against the New Englands and San Diegos of the league.

Palmer is so overrated it makes my mind hurt just thinking about how overrated he is.

But please -- feel free to state your case just WHY you think he's some elite QB.

by Sheldon (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 2:32pm

Tom Brady's hotness is too powerful

Poor Peyton and he rocket laser arm. They just can't compete.

by AJ (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 2:35pm

First off, I'm not a Patriots fan or a Colts fan. I have a few things to say.

1) Peyton Manning is not a choker. He has played for years on a team where the entire offense is built around him. That's why he has been both the magic feather and the achilles heal of the franchise. Surprise, surprise - teams realized that if you beat Peyton Manning, you beat the Colts. This year, it looks like the Colts may have finally built a team that relies less on Manning winning games, and more on him just playing quarterback. If this is the case, look for the Patriots to fall in an AFC title game.

2) Tom Brady is not perfect. He can lose just like any quarterback. His play this year has been sub-par, partly due to his depleted lineup of receivers. And we've all seen him cry on the sideline at one time or another. If the Patriots win the AFC championship, it will be because of their top-ranked defense, not because of Brady.

All of that aside, I am tired of the Tom Brady love fest and would absolutely love to see the Patriots get blown out, but that probably won't happen.

Colts win 20-17. The turncoat kicker seals the deal with no time left.

by Blair (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 2:43pm

RE: 303

Exactly. Jabar Gaffney was willing to take the plunge into eternal oblivion that Doug Gabriel wasn't and so Doug was cut.

by TheWizard (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 2:57pm

More of a Patriots comment than Brady/Manning - both are great QBs. Before I hear anymore about deifying Tom Brady and how great Bill Belicheck is, can the Patriots win just one super bowl by dominating the game? Or one important playoff game? All the other major dynasties had dominant wins - Steelers 70s, Niners 80s, Cowboys 90s, etc. That's why the 2000's Patriots are not a dynasty, just a team on an unbelievable lucky streak. Between the tuck rule, Mike Martz being an idiot and not running the ball, to the Colts game with PI on every play, McNabb getting sick, Kasey's weak kickoff, etc., etc., the list goes on and on.
I don't remember the great teams of past years winning EVERY game by 3 points on the last play. I don't remember the dominant teams in the past playing every game down to the wire and hoping the other team makes mistakes.
Why would you even be proud of that? Pats fans should be saying "holy shit, we barely got by again! We won AGAIN because the other team and/or refs f***ed up."
Is New England possibly being repaid for the Red Sox misery of the last how ever many years (pre-04)?
But you can be proud Patriots fans... the last several years you're the very best at waiting for another team to screw up! Boy, that's thrilling!

by Myles (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 3:17pm

According to my wife, Tom is the "stud" of the duo.

Payton does make the first sting QB...for the "All Ugly Team."

Of course, I listen to whatever my wife says...

by NF (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 3:48pm

If this debate ever ends, Aaron needs to create a "Best of Irrational Brady-Manning Arguments" collection.

by buckkalu (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 3:48pm

Here are some more interesting stats since you Colt's fans love to talk about Mannings Stats so much. Look how similar Brady's numbers are to Montana's through 3 SB's.

Super Bowl Comp. Att. Pct. Yards TDs INTs Rating Result
XVI 14/22 63.6 157 1 0 100.0 W 26-21
XIX 24/35 68.6 331 3 0 127.2 W 38-16
XXIII 23/36 63.9 357 2 0 115.2 W 20-16

TOTALS 61/93 65.6 845 6 0 116.1 3-0

BRADY (through three Super Bowls)
Super Bowl Comp. Att. Pct. Yards TDs INTs Rating Result
XXXVI 16/27 59.3 145 1 0 86.2 W 20-17
XXXVIII 32/48 66.7 354 3 1 100.5 W 32-29
XXXIX 23/33 69.7 236 2 0 110.2 W 24-21
TOTALS 71/108 65.7 735 6 1 99.9 3-0

And for all the talk of "Manning would be even better if he played for the Patriots" nonsense, I guarantee if Brady played for the Colt's and was throwing to Harrison, Wayne, Clark etc., he would already be wearing a few rings!

by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 3:50pm

"Why would you even be proud of that? Pats fans should be saying “holy shit, we barely got by again!"
Bah, I'll take that over losing any day.

by PatsFan (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 4:07pm

Hey stan, morganja, Purds, Andrew, OMO, and Dave -- there's a kindred spirit over at pro-football-reference.com for your bitter, hating souls :).

by PatsFan (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 4:12pm

Oh, and it looks like the Colts can't even trust their own fans, since they're pulling the same "can't sell tickets outside of our area" stuff the Chargers did.

by OMO (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 4:23pm

Re: 319 & 320

One-trick pony doesn't not BEGIN to describe your tired and worn out schtick.

Enough already.

by sippican (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 4:24pm

Your honor…the defense rests.

Your defense can't rest.

If they do, you'll lose. They have to get right back on the field! I know all the draft picks and money goes toward Manning stats, but get poor Bob Sanders, running on bone and heart and guts at this point, to hit that line like a kamikaze one more time! Peyton needs stats!

by Ryan (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 4:38pm

I personally believe that Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback to ever live. With that in mind I want to officially start his campaign to be on the cover of Madden next year. Who's with me!?!?

by PatsFan (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 4:41pm

Re: #321

Say what you want about me, but at least read the linked-to articles. They're both totally on your side (seriously, no sarcasm).

by B (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 5:08pm

319: I gotta admire somebody who's hatred for Bellichick/Brady goes back to 1997. Imagine life would have been like had the Patriots gotten the Jets #1 pick for Parcells and used it to draft Manning. And they could have promoted Bellichick to the Head Coaching job. Although, I suppose Archie would have told Peyton to stay in school one more year and avoid ending up at a cursed franchise like New York (And we know how right Archie was about not going to San Deigo)

by TheWizard (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 5:11pm

Follow-up to 314: I'll give Brady his due as a good quarterback (can't say great yet - he's only been a starter for 5 years, I think?) and I would say Belicheck is a great coach. And that defense has been great for years.
My annoyance comes from people gushing over the Patriots. They haven't dominated the league in ANY season - or been the dominant AFC team in ANY season that I can remember.
Big plays? Yes. Clutch plays? Absolutely. Great under pressure? Definitely. Great when the game is on the line? Might not be any better.
I would celebrate and enjoy my team winning as the Pats have - Pats fans deserve to - but I would be careful about the comparisons I make and the conclusions I draw.
I just can't get away from the fact that the three Patriot Super Bowl victories were by a TOTAL of 9 points. 9 points!
Take away a couple of field goals, and the Pats have won ZERO Super Bowls - and are the Buffalo Bills of the 2000's.
And now that I think about it, I haven't seen Tom Brady do anything Jim Kelly couldn't do.... Like I said, a couple of field goals......

by OMO (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 5:15pm

Re: 324

(Extends Olive branch)

Thanks for the links.

He sounds like a kindered spirit.

My favorite line:

"EVERY ONE OF THOSE NUMBERS ARE LOWER THAN HIS CAREER REGULAR SEASON AVERAGES. Brady doesn’t turn from Drew Brees and Matt Hasselbeck into Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas in the post-season, he turns into a slightly less effective version of himself."

by Jeremy (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 5:23pm


If my grandmother had a penis, she'd be my grandfather. The reason why Pats fans love their team is precisely because they have win tight games. The disagreement is that you consider that luck (evidence of a lack of dominance in, gasp, an era where dominance is heavily legislated against). Those of us who have watched all the games recognize that the Pats have been well constructed with players who aren't necessarily dominant Merriman/Owens/Manning types, but who play smart and have a knack for coming up with big plays at big moments (partly because the lack of star power allows for abnormally strong depth).

I'll repeat what I said earlier. For the most part, the Pats didn't get "lucky" on Sunday. They made plays. They stripped the ball, they fought for fumble recoveries, they protected the hell out of their quarterback, they made the right two-point conversion call, they blitzed safeties at the right moments (after never doing so this year), they made their field goals, they punted well, they managed the clock correctly, and they hit one of the clutchest 49-yard-bombs you'll ever see.

Pats fans love rooting for a team like that. Probably a lot more than people in San Diego love rooting for a more individually talented roster.

by MRH (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 5:49pm

I grew up as a Baltimore Colts/Johnny U fan, which means I was a Packer/Starr hater.

In fact, if FO had existed back then, Starr-Unitas would have been the Brady-Manning argument. Except that Unitas did get two rings before Unitas/Shula couldn't win the big one (Manning/Dungy).

But with that in mind, if you're of the mind that rings and performances in big games are the measurement, I think Starr is the best qb in history with Montana and Graham in the argument. Brady is in the next tier.

Starr: 5 titles and the highest passer rating in playoff history (104.8 in ten games)
Montana: 4 titles and #2 playoff passer rating (95.6 in 23 games)
Graham: 3 NFL titles plus 4 AAFC. Playoff passer rating not available. Since the Browns won the NFL title their 1st year in the league, it's an open question how many they and Graham would have won when they were AAFC champs.

by sippican (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 6:25pm

They haven’t dominated the league in ANY season

Well, technically, I guess that's correct. Winning 18 straight regular season games is hard when there are only 16 in a year. And then they throw the playoffs in there, to tucker them out by forcing them to win 21 straight games.

What ever you are smoking, I want some.

by Yaguar (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 6:30pm

310: Carson Palmer is the best big-game quarterback ever. He averages 62 yards per attempt in the playoffs. What does your man Brady average? 6?


by sb (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 6:56pm

What did Tom Brady say to Peyton Manning after he beat him in the AFC Championship?
I'll give you a ring sometime. Ooh, sorry.

What's Peyton Manning's favorite movie this year?
Happy Feet

How do you keep Peyton Manning out of your house?
Put a big game in your front lawn.

How did Peyton Manning's explain his wife's pregnancy?
"I gotta be honest, we had some protection problems."

If Peyton Manning were a company, what would it be?
A wholly owned subsidiary of Ty Law Enterprises Inc.

Why did Peyton Manning cross the road?
The Patriots front 7 made him

What do you call Peyton Manning in the playoffs?
Ryan Leaf

Why didn't the Colts offense take a vacation in the offseason?
It stalled in the playoffs

How many Peyton Mannings does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

What in Ty Law's house is called Peyton?
His female dog

Why doesn't Peyton Manning's helmet fit right?
He takes up too much cap space.

How does Peyton Manning pronounce "champ ee en ship"?
"En dorse ment"

What does Peyton Manning call Super Bowl Sunday?
A tee time.

What's the difference between Peyton Manning and Tom Brady?
About 84.5 Carats

by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 7:23pm

Some of those are really funny :)

by ZS (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 8:44pm

I want to see Ryan Leaf lead a team into the playoffs by some miracle, or him becoming the QB of a playoff team, and then he's amazing. Like, Phil Simms good.

by Phil (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 8:51pm

RE: 332


by doktarr (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 9:51pm

Wow, this iteration of TOTfIBMA is way less interesting than TOTfIBMA2. I guess I like a little bit of rationality in my irrationality.

RE: 289,

Interesting theory, for sure, but I don't think it can explain how, for example, Manning and Harrison can miscommunicate on the two Ty Law interceptions in the KC game. Or how Manning missed Moorehead for an open TD this week. Or, on the other side of the coin, how Manning completely obliterated Denver in 03/04 and KC in 03.

I think there may be some truth to this theory, but it is buried under the more obvious factors: that Manning has simply had mediocre games the last two weeks, and in his previous three playoff losses he simply ran into a defense that was better than the Colts offense.

by Kyle W (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 10:17pm

Who has the bigger forehead? That must be the true sign of quarterback greatness.

by sippican (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 10:30pm

Manning doesn't have a forehead. He has a fivehead.

Never mind that, let's have a freaky wideout contest.

I thought Aaron Forehead... I mean Moorehead... was the strangest looking wideout in the league. Then Belichick, ever mindful of the need to constantly freak out the opposition, looked far and wide and brought us Reche Caldwell.

Game, Set, Match: Patriots.

by SGT Ben (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 11:05pm

#125 - Brady is a better QB because, after getting drunk on seven bottles of Syrian Panther Sweat and pleasuring four Thai hookers (plus one pegboy), he saved a group of kids from a burning orphanage and still had enough energy to throw four touchdowns against the Jets later that afternoon.

Who couldn't do that against the Jets that day?

by B (not verified) :: Tue, 01/16/2007 - 11:27pm

327: I can accept that, but let's look at the numbers. Postseason Brady is about 95% of Regular season Brady. Which is good, because the Patriots team requires about 80% of Brady to win a game, the rest of the team is good enough to support it.
Post-season manning, however, and let's be generous here, is about 75% of regular season manning. That's not good, though, because this year excepted, the Colts need at least 90% manning to be successful. They rely on their QB more than any other team does.
So the reason the Colts arn't successful in the playoffs isn't because Manning isn't better, it's because he's too good, and he drops down to merely good in the playoffs. Manning won't win a Superbowl until the Colts build a team that doesn't need him. Who knows, Maybe this is the year. I still can't figure out why their defense has flip-flopped in the last two weeks and if it's sustainable, though.

by mkooo (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 12:25am

peyton is the king of the regular season. The master of so-so games.
Brady is the king of post-season, master of the great ones.
payton has the better arm, but brady is a better player.

by Smartmonies (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 2:53am
by emcee fleshy (atl/sd) (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 2:54am

First, much respect to Brady for joining Elway and Byner in my pantheon of Schottenheimer-related emotional trauma. (Was a Browns fan as a kid, moved to SD this season. [weeps])

Now, I typically stick to irrational Mike Vick arguments - but this is a pretty easy argument. Two facts:

1) I always instinctively irrationally hated Manning; but

2) I had to learn to irrationally hate Brady.

Therefore, Manning is the better QB.

by I\'m a G (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 5:48am

314 - instead of criticizing the pats for not blowing out teams like dynasties of the past, a more reasonable approach would be to congratule them for being a dynasty in the era of parity.

this is a different league since the cowboys dominated the early 90's. the dynasty was never supposed to happen again.

by Insancipitory (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 9:32am

Brady has Brazilian super/lingerie models delivered to the Patriots locker room after games, where they wait, for he is Tom Brady and you're not. That is winning at life. Football. Life. Tom Brady just wins.

by Ryan (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 11:45am


That may be the most sound logic I've read so far

by stamford (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 1:46pm

What was up with Angelina Jolie at the Golden Globes the other night? She was't...

OOPs wrong thread. How did I get in here?

by Hammer36 (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 1:52pm

Can you imagine if Peyton was playing for Belichick! Then he would hands down be the best ever, but since he doesn't I will have to give the edge to Brady.

by iapetus (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 1:58pm

#280 - These Brooks-Garrard arguments seem perfectly rational to me.

by Hammer36 (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 2:03pm

The wizard says that the Pats were never dominant...that's a bold statement considering they hold the record for the most consecutive regular season wins...oh maybe you didn't watch football this decade.

by Basilicus (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 3:12pm

At least Tom Brady doesn't need a helmet for a trash-talkin stare-down like Mr. Laser Rocket Arm does.

See the link.

by Gisele (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 4:14pm

Peyton's dating Catholic Match Girl. Tom's nailed her. Twice.

by Dan R. (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 4:37pm

"Manning has done a nice job of managing Indianapolis' first two playoff victories, throwing just one touchdown pass."

I agree with Len Pasquarelli. Oh wait, I'm not f*cking retarded.

by dryheat (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 5:25pm

Finding myself with an hour to kill, I just read this thread in it's entirety. Thank you. I know better than to contribute serious points. Here's what I know:

Also, I’d like to have the game decided by Manning Vs Brady facing off in an Iron Chef duel. Battle Ham! Brady would win, because it's no secret to the Pats defense that Peyton will audible to pancakes, and they'll be waiting for it.

#286, very nicely done.

Forced to make relevant points, I would hypothetically add that I think a defense that starts guys like Troy Brown and Hank Poteat in playoff games might not be as historically dominating as some here want to believe. I would hypothetically point out that there is a more to quarterbacking than throwing the ball. Guys who rack up statistics are not necessarily the best quarterbacks ever. And finally, I would hypothetically theorize that if Peyton Manning and Tom Brady switched teams, The Colts would have two rings for every Patriots' one.

by Diane (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 5:27pm

Robo-Brady is clearly superior to Robo-Manning .... (or not)

by ammek (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 5:52pm

Only one way to settle this. Give them 8 weeks each in the Lions' offense in 2007. Then compare Brady's clutch drives which reduce the fourth-quarter deficit to 14 with Manning's beautiful spirals that land in five square yards of space where Mike Williams/Josh McCown ought to have been.

Mike Pagel or Tom Flick?

by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 7:42pm

Tom Brady seems to be dating Gisele Bundchen now.

Therefore, Brady is the best quarterback in the league.

by LnGrrrR (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 7:51pm

Oh, and by the way, how many years running are we on the "THIS IS INDY'S DESTINY!" trail? Is it year 3 or 4?

by The AntiWizard (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 8:08pm

Dear The Wizard

Besides the utter contempt you seem to show towards the Patriots/Brady - some things in your rantings and ravings don't hold up under any type of scrutiny and I would suggest you be careful befoe you ask for any analysis that backs it up and here is why:

Margin of Victory

Of the 40 superbowls that have been played over 30% of them have been decided by fewer than 7 points. So are all the other teams that had narrow victories also lucky...and why weren't those teams lucky year after year like the lucky Patriots?

If you go by the margin of victory Theory - then SF won 2 Superbowls in the 80's by a margin of only 9 points...9 points..man those guys were lucky.


Why don't you consider the Patriots a dominant team? Must be because every other Superbowl team that crushed another team in the Bowl has gone on to numerous superbowls in the years following...right?
Tampa Bay won by a ton and how did they do the next year(s)? 7-9 and 5-11
Baltimore - 7-9 and 10 - 6
Green Bay 11-5, 8-8, 9-7

Blowing people out in the Superbowl means nothing in regards to dominance of a team. Dominance in most peoples mind or the sane, means you display long spans of time at the top...not highs and lows...long tenured time at the top of any sports world...as exampled below.

Patriots since 2001 (6 seasons)
70-26, 3 Superbowl wins, 1 Divisional playoff loss, 5 AFC East Titles and 1 2nd Place AFC, missed playoffs 1 year and this year still pending but no worse than another AFC Championship.

Not far enough you say...okay how about since 1996 (11 seasons)

133-63, 8 out of 11 seasons in playoffs
4 Superbowl (3 vic's), 2 Divisional losses (by combined 15 points 1 of them by 1 point), 1 wild card loss and 1 more this season pending but no worse than AFC Championship. OH Yeah...7 AFC East Titles and ONLY 1 Year below 500.

I'm not sure how your defining dominance but I would match those stats up against anybody over the last 20 years as well as anybody since at least the 49er's of the 80's. Let's compare the last dominant team -

Dallas in the early to mid 90's
3 Superbowl victories, record of 102-74, 6 NFC East Titles, 2 wild card losses and 2 divisional losses, 1 NFC Championship loss and 3 Sub 500 seasons.

PSST...Pats won 21 consecutive games in a row...most ever...but they aren't dominant.

I don't know but to me it looks like the numbers clearly display who has been the most dominant team since at least back to those lucky 49er's of the 80's.

In regards to your feelings of brady three things you must admit....or at least most sane folks do.

Championships define who is the greatest in all sports. 3 to 0 is all there is to say.
I would think most would agree that Manning has had the better players around him as far as offensive weaspons since Brady started playing..what kind of stats would brady have with harrison et al nevermind how many more trophies.
Lastly, Brady is 80-25 as a starter or 76% Manning is 92-52 or 64%. Most ever consecutive postseason wins and nfl record of 12-1.
(Item of note for some you as well...Brady Bridget Moynahan and now Giselle...come on...that alone makes it no contest for brady.)

Lastly please don't compare Kelly to Brady...casue your right I haven't seen Brady do anything that kelly has done - like lose 4 Superbowls by a combined 66 points....whew..not just a few field goals. I think you'd be alone when asking people who would you rather have..kelly or brady. Some would argue ultimate winner verse ultimate loser.

Feelings are emotional . Facts/Numbers don't Lie

by B (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 10:11pm

I thought Chris Weinke is the ultimate loser. I think he's now 2-17 as a starter.

by Parker (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 10:37pm

Nice video, David Arnot!!

by Ryan (not verified) :: Wed, 01/17/2007 - 11:32pm


Quick note: Those AFC east titles and as many as 6 wins a year have come again, well, the AFC east...

by Antiwizard (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 12:45am

ryan excellent point...oh wait you must have the same emotional feeling as the wizard...

jacksonville's record since existance is a resounding 102-90 impressive
tennesse last 10 seasons 4 over 500 3 at 500 and 3 under 500 - again a juggernaut
last the oh so guaranteed 2 wins a year Houston Texans....oh wait how did the manning led colts do this year against the doormats of the league with a stunning 24-56 record since existance?

the afc central is ....ah well, awful by any standards.

by Don M (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 12:50am

Tom Brady=Terry Bradshaw. For all the talk about how defense wins championships etc, fans don't care much about defense, and even when they do love the team and the D, as time goes by their thinking grows fuzzy and they remember the greatness of their QB, I hear kids talk about how great Bradshaw was all the time because he won 4 superbowls and "it's all about the rings" well, BS it was the steel curtain and a great running attack, Bradshaw was good, maybe even very good, but today he gets the glory, no one talks about "mean joe greene" or Jack lambert or the steel curtain, or Franco Harris or Rocky Blier, they talk about Terry Bradshaw. (Ditto for the Cowboys of yore, the "doomsday defense" made Roger Staubach famous, and even made Danny White look pretty good for a time.

by Antiwizard (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 12:59am

Note 361 by calc it looks as though the colts have wrapped up 5 division titles since 1988? is that true? if it is that is ah well, awful. also 98 pats had a record of 9-7 made playoffs and they were the 4th place team in the afc east. was that the year all wildcards came out of the afc east? 99 pats were a mediocre 8-8 (impressive by jax, houston and tenn standards) and came in 5th place in the afc east - not conference - afc east. easy.....nah your right

by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 2:02am

364-I thought this was the Manning-Brady thread, not the Harbaugh-Bledsoe thread.

Does anyone else think that in 15 years we'll be debating their merits as analysts? 'Well, Manning does a better job of breaking down the quarterback's checkdowns, but Brady is much more polished in the booth.'

by Antiwizard (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 2:05am

One last point for everybody out there that thinks that peyton has stats that blow everybody else away..let's compare apples to apples

Over the six year (2001-2006) period that brady has started for the patriots and manning during that same time here is how they stack up statistically

Manning 3211 attempts Brady 147 less at 3064...yards manning 25270 brady 21564 a whopping 3700 more over 6 years or more concisely said about 39 yards a game more over the 96 game period we are comparing. Td's Manning190 Brady 147 or about 1 more every 2 games and lastly INT's Manning 81 and Brady 78.

Manning more attempts 39 yards more a game 1 td more every 2 games and more int's over all.

Better sure...but much better....ah no. You actually would think that they way that peyton stats are talked about and him having harrison, wayne, clark, stoakly, edge and others that his stats would be much better than brady....no?

by black (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 3:27am

Brady wins Manning chokes. Ok now that thats out of the way. How have the Colts never managed to get a physical receiver? They don't draft em' they don't even get them off the scrap yard from other teams. None of the colts receivers have the ability to get yards after contact. Which as a Jaguar fan i'm cool with this, but from an organizational standpoint you would think somebody would figure this out.

by JFP (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 7:09am

I couldn't read all of the comments so maybe someone already made the point. Brady is so good he can throw the pick to set up a strip by his wide receiver! Let's see Manning do that.

by Lou (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 7:15am

Someone should ask Rodney Harrison if he feels disrespected that Brady gets all the credit for the Pats winning.

by The AntiWizard (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 10:53am

Yeah, tom is good at throwing the int fumble thing - i'm just surprised peyton hasn't done it in his last 2 weeks 5 int's or historically 13 picks with all the chances he's had. Guess he's not as good as tom.

Funny part is - he should learn how to i guess...

by joe (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 3:51pm

If Manning tried to throw the pick/strip, he would choke and hit his receiver for a TD.

Tom Brady wills it, and it is so.

by underthebus (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 4:04pm

Manning : Brady :: A-rod : Jeter

by JohnInBoston (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 4:26pm

I'll concede that Manning is the better QB if the Colts fans will concede that the Pats are the better team.... Well, I guess we'll see on Sunday. Good luck to all and my the best TEAM win.


by Mikey (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 5:48pm

Would any of the Outsiders be willing to post DVOA figures for Manning and Brady only in games against common opponents in the same season?

by Lou (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 6:40pm

I don't think any Colts fan or rational person would argue that the Colts were better.

by JohnInBoston (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 9:58pm

Not were better... I said are better.

by Gus (not verified) :: Thu, 01/18/2007 - 10:47pm

What Steve Miller was to the Steve Miller Band, Tom Brady is to the New England offense.

What Steve Harwell was to Smash Mouth, Peyton Manning is to the Colts offense.

I think this means the Patriots are going to win.

by s.o. (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 4:39am

Peyton Manning is better because he is a competitor despite a mild case of Down syndrome

by B (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 11:21am

377: Because Smash Mouth sucks, right? Not that the Steve Miller band is all that great.

by Lou (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 1:03pm

Ah, yeah thats not going to happen. What with the Colts having won the past two games against them and having the higher seed. Or it has no chance of happening until after the game ends Sunday.

by PatsFan (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 1:39pm

Brady's better because he gets almost as much endorsement dollars as Manning, but without having to do commercials for everything known to man:

Manning raked in $11.5 million from endorsements in 2006, hawking everything from Sprint cellphones to shopping at Tweeter stores. By comparison, Brady pulled in $9 million from endorsements, according to the latest ranking by Sports Illustrated.

by Gus (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 5:06pm

379: Actually, I don't know. My comment was intended to be somewhat cryptic. I can't really take this debate seriously any more.

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 6:03pm

tom brady is better because he boinked tara reid and lived

by B (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 6:48pm

382: I was hoping I could use it as a jumping off point to make fun of various bands. I'll go next.
Aaron Brooks : Raiders :: A member of Nickelback : Nickelback.

by Mikey (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 6:55pm

Tom Brady nailed Tara Reid? Geez, now I have to re-evaluate him.

Give him credit. Brady has pulled some world-class chicks without getting a reputation as a womanizer.

Maybe I better stop talking.

by Around the Horn (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 7:28pm

Performance in sports is the reflection of one's moral and intellectual choices. Peyton Manning WOULD RATHER play for stats and WILL NOT and CANNOT beat the Patriots because he has a flawed moral character. Simply put, he is an evil man, a sinner.

Tom Brady has always consciously chosen TO WIN, while most players simply do not care.

by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 7:34pm

I find it amusing that #385 mentions Brady nailing Tara Reid, while #386 says Brady is better because of superior moral character.

So, according to this thread, nailing Tara Reid is a mark of great moral character. Ladies and gentlemen, a new standard of irrationality has been reached!

by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 7:50pm

Robo Punter would have a higher DPAR than either one of them.

by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 8:00pm

"can the Patriots win just one super bowl by dominating the game? Or one important playoff game?"

You mean that 20-3 win over the #1 offense colts, followed by the 41-17 win over the #1 ranked defensive Steelers werent dominant wins?

by Reverend (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 8:06pm

Tom Brady's tears cure cancer.

by doktarr (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 9:01pm


Absolutely. The 2004 Pats were a historically great team.


The Pats have won every recent game between the teams played when they had the better team. The Colts have won every recent game between the teams played when THEY had the better team. It doesn't always work out that way, but in the case of these two teams it has. I'm honestly unsure which team is playing better right now.

If the Pats win, and after the game I concede that they have the better team, would you then concede that Peyton is better?

by Gus (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 9:29pm

384: Hey, it's a good idea. Problem, there isn't much of a consensus about either of the bands I picked. Steve Miller Band had/has its fans (I like 'em), and we can laugh at SM now, but they had a nice little run. Your example is much better.

My turn: :Rex Grossman:Bears::Nigel Tufts:Spinal Tap

by Randy S. (not verified) :: Fri, 01/19/2007 - 9:53pm

390 - Wait, Tom Brady is a Cylon? Actually, that would explain a lot.

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 1:10am

Tom Brady has testicular fortitude. Peyton Manning is just a ball sack. Ron Borges is an assclown

by B (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 2:42am

I always enjoy the argument that "Manning only cares about stats, he doesn't care about winning" as if there is anything a QB can do to help his team win that doesn't involve stats.

by Lou (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 10:14am

Unfortunately he never cries.

by phalanges (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 5:53pm

When mankind is faced with questions that mere conjecture cannot answer, we must turn to objective, verifiable observations, the preponderance of which indicate that Tom Brady is obviously the superior quarterback. To be specific:

1) Tom Brady has a copious supply of potent "magic beans", which invariably cause such events as miraculous fumbles following ill advised fourth down interception returns.
2) Tom Brady has engaged in highly publicized involvment with one or more women of questionable character.
3) I once walked in on Tom Brady in a public restroom, where to my surprise I discovered that he craps gold bricks.
4) In the year 2021 Tom Brady will singlehandedly thwart a massive alien invasion with a brilliant sequence of audibles and play action fakes. He will then invent time travel to come back and recount his tale to a lone conspiracy crackpot who spends way too much time on the internet.
5) This one buddy of mine has had Peyton Manning in a keeper league for years, and he still hasn't shut up about it.
6) In the year 2112, scripture(Patriots playbook, 2004) tells us that Tom Brady will unlock the ultimate secrets of the universe, transcend his human form and become a being of pure energy. He will then throw a "totally bitchin' party" with the spoils of the resulting lucrative endorsement contracts.

Now that the question has been definitively answered, it can finally be laid to rest. Or at least we can be assured than no further discussion of this matter will be any more enlightening than ramming your head into a brick wall.

by MLA (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 9:03pm

Tom Brady is clearly the better QB because Tom Brady's mere presence is enough to boost the IQ of his coaches, elevating them to genius status. If you don't believe me, just look at Bill Belichick's coaching career with and without Tom Brady playing for him.
Peyton Manning, on the other hand, has never improved his coaches IQ, as is evidenced by the fact that Tony Dungy is the same coach with Peyton Manning as he was in Tampa Bay.

by Gus (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 9:47pm

I'm a Patriots fan, and all these Colts-Pats/Manning-Brady articles and TV airtime is making me wonder...could we have both teams lose, and have NO-Chicago be the Super Bowl?

by doktarr (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 10:28pm

This one buddy of mine has had Peyton Manning in a keeper league for years, and he still hasn’t shut up about it.

Hey, me too! Limited keeper league, only 5 keepers. Peyton and LJ make me a perennial contender. Giving the Priest owner shit in 2005 was a lot of fun.

I'm somewhat embarrased to admit that owning Peyton in this league (combined with living in Indiana for a few years) is a big reason why the Colts became my favorite AFC team.

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 10:30pm

brady is jesus manning is the anti-christ and i am a drunken fool oh ya borges is an assclown

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 10:32pm

bum bum wee wee poo poo pee pee

by ejt (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 10:33pm

389: the Pats beat the Steelers 41-27, not 41-17, still it was a dominating performance.

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 10:34pm

everybody have fun tonite everybody wang chung tonite

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 10:36pm

i have a lot of serious issues but it dos'nt make me a bad person

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 10:38pm

does anyone else think its cold in here?

by NF (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 11:10pm

Go Bucs.

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sat, 01/20/2007 - 11:16pm

tonites the nite that we got the the truck.were going down town gonna beat up druncks.your turn to drive i'll; bring the beer. its the late late shift no one to fear.and ride how we ride. lets ride low ride. its roundup time where the good whores meet. lets grab one screaming off the street.and ride how we ride.gotta a black uniform and a silver badge playing cops for real/playing cops for pay. lets ride,low ride.pull down your dress heres a kick in the ass lets beat you blue till you shit in your pants. don't move, child got a big black stick. theres six of us babe, so suck on my dick. and ride, ride how we ride.lets ride, low ride.the left newspapers might whine a bit but the guys at the station they don't give a shit. dispatch calls, "are you doing somthing wicked"? "no siree jack were just giving tickets" as we ride,ride, how we ride. lets ride, low ride.....

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sun, 01/21/2007 - 12:49am

summer time and the living is easy

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sun, 01/21/2007 - 1:00am

i told you!

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sun, 01/21/2007 - 1:01am

i am inebrieated

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sun, 01/21/2007 - 1:04am

does anyone know how to get urine stains out of a couch?

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sun, 01/21/2007 - 1:06am

skitta marinki dinky dink a skitta marinki do!

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sun, 01/21/2007 - 1:16am

the ramblings of a drunken fool.

by Bam (not verified) :: Sun, 01/21/2007 - 1:17am

I've settled this debate:
Which quarterback would do better with Robo-Punter on his team?
Clearly, Tom Brady would use his superhuman ability to not turn the ball over like panicky Peyton Manning would and thus take advantage of Robo-Punter's mad skillz.

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sun, 01/21/2007 - 1:19am

this is a cry for help

by mr.pink (not verified) :: Sun, 01/21/2007 - 1:20am


by Sunil (not verified) :: Sun, 01/21/2007 - 1:44am

This is from the Onion - see link

INDIANAPOLIS, IN — Colts quarterback Peyton Manning said Monday he is looking forward to wrapping up his football season and relaxing with friends and family while watching the Super Bowl, a tradition that goes back nine years in Manning’s house and far longer in his extended family. “I believe in working hard each and every Sunday, but when the Super Bowl rolls around, that’s my day to relax,� Manning told reporters during a break from preparing for the upcoming AFC championship matchup against the Patriots. “As far as I myself am concerned, it’s never gotten any better than spending Super Bowl Sunday watching the big game on TV surrounded by family and friends, like I have ever since I can remember.� Manning said that the experience of watching the game was his main source of enjoyment, but if he was forced to choose, he would probably be rooting for Tom Brady to “win another one.

by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Sun, 01/21/2007 - 2:29am

Good luck, man...

by Gus (not verified) :: Sun, 01/21/2007 - 3:20am

I liked the Onion story about how Parcells has always hated football.

by Blotto Graham (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 12:17am

Whew! Glad this argument has finally been settled.

by dedkrikit (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 12:20am

brady's clutch interception-fumble didn't work this week!!

by Ralph (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 12:22am

For the first time in his career, Brady had to get his team a TD instead of putting them in a position for the FG. He failed.

by JohnInBoston (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 12:37am

Wow, what a game.... Congrats Colts fans, you had the better team after the 59 minute mark (which is when it counts the most.) Now I'm going to go cry in my beer and watch Battle Star Galactica. (Tricia Helfer - yumm.... I bet Brady bangs her next.)

by doktarr (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 12:44am

This thread can be closed now, right?

by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 12:49am

422-Damn Marlin Jackson, didn't he know what he was supposed to do ;)

425-I'd think so, especially if the horses win in two weeks.

by billsfan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 1:21am


I was thinking the exact same thing.

by Basilicus (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 2:16am

Man, if only the Pats still had Vinatieri, he could have made that four-point field goal to win....

by NF (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 2:37am

We need an irrational Vinatieri-Gostkowski thread.

by Don M (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 2:40am

Tom Brady= Great QB, tough guy, clutch player.
Peyton Manning=Best Passer in NFL history, great QB, awesome clutch player. (Really peeps, who came back from 21, or 28 down to Tampa Bay, who led 2 game winning drives against the Jets this year, who drags a somewhat mediocre team into serious contention for a SB berth every year etc.)
That said my dislike for the *actual* Tom Brady is much less than it was four hours ago, as I anticipate the new arguments on behalf of deranged pats homers and Brady worshipers. (Actual Pats fans, as in those who suffered along with Bledsoe & Company and endured the years of suckitude prior to the BB era are to be given a pass from all scorn and ridicule. Bandwagon jumpers who literally became fans as Brady was leading that first SB winning drive are to be mocked at every opportunity.

by throughthelookingglass (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 3:16am

Gostkowski has better kickoffs, but Vinatieri was the originator of those magic beans.

by Carlos (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 4:37am

Happy to see Manning get the AFC Championship monkey off his back.

And admit to also enjoying watching Brady throw a fourth qtr interception for the 2d week in a row. Maybe that's a familiarity breeds contempt thing, but I think it's more an impossibly smug fanbase breeds contempt thing.

by Ryan (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 5:32am


How can you say that in a game where the Colts just set the record for biggest AFC championship comeback in NFL history?

That comeback was of course set up by passing, from Manning to receivers who were dropping several passes all day. Also everyone here has to admit the patriots secondary was outstanding today which just helps Manning's case even more.

Argument is over. See you all at this time next year.

by Mukka (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 8:52am

Tom Brady just wins, baby!

by J.D. (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 1:55pm

Would you rather be playing in the Super Bowl, or watching it on TV while nailing Gisele?

Even when he loses, Brady wins.

by The AntiWizard (not verified) :: Mon, 01/22/2007 - 3:24pm

Donkey heads...being jealous will get you know where and let's just recap 3 quick things...1) Brady has the most touch down winning drives (over peyton) since he starting playing quarterback in 2001 - so don't compare apples to oranges...peyton has played longer so he has more since the late 90's 2) say all you want teams don't win 3 superbowls by luck...haven't you heard every former football player (not some idiot on this board) say that it is almost impossible to do once never mind 3 times 3) Don't count your rings before you finish the job...talk to you in 2 weeks.

by Todd S. (not verified) :: Mon, 02/05/2007 - 10:21pm

No jealousy here, TAW. Brady is a great QB, and Manning is a great QB. Just thought I'd post something "in two weeks" after the Colts stomped the Bears.

by lobolafcadio (not verified) :: Wed, 02/21/2007 - 11:47am

Re 434.

Tom Brady just wins babies !!!!!

by DZ (not verified) :: Mon, 07/21/2008 - 2:55pm

For interesting reading on the subject, follow the link in my name.