Writers of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

Most Recent FO Features


» 2018 Free Agency Cost-Benefit Analysis

Is Kirk Cousins the best free-agent quarterback in recent memory? Should Trumaine Johnson or Malcolm Butler have gotten the larger contract? And what makes a free-agent contract good or bad, anyway?

13 Dec 2007

The Week in Quotes: December 13, 2007

compiled by Ben Riley


"He came out and said some things to the team. It was like he was telling his side of it and I didn't want to get into it ... That was my biggest concern when he did that: I felt it was trying to undermine me with my teammates."

-- 49ers quarterback Alex Smith, speaking with a reporter from the San Jose Mercury News and criticizing [soon to be ex]-49ers head coach Mike Nolan over Nolan's decision to speak publicly about Smith's shoulder injury earlier this season

"I think if [my teammates] would have heard what I actually said out there that day, it wouldn't have been an issue. But all of a sudden Nolan spins it as if I was making excuses for an injury. What I really felt like was, 'Yeah, I tried to play on it. And that was my decision and obviously I wasn't playing well enough.'"

-- Smith, offering his (delayed) reaction to Nolan's criticism of his toughness

"But at that point my arm wasn't getting any better. In fact, it was getting worse and I was going to go get a second opinion. (Nolan) can spin it however he wants to, but the first thing Dr. Andrews told me when he saw me was 'This is much worse than I thought.'"

-- Smith

"You didn't ask me that question. And I'm not going to answer it. I can't answer it."

-- 49ers head coach Mike Nolan, when asked about Smith's leadership in the locker room

"Another player recently refused to discuss the extent of his injury with a reporter because, he said, "I don't want it to be like Alex's interview where I'm blaming my production on it." Another acknowledged that certain members of the team have derisively referred to Smith as "The Lion," as in the one without courage in "The Wizard of Oz."

-- Criticism of Smith by unidentified 49ers players (as reported in the Mercury News article)

"Well, no, I haven't noticed it -- especially the guys around me -- but like I said, Nolan is spinning it toward his direction."

-- Smith, when asked for his reaction to his teammates' comments (San Jose Mercury News)

"Everything we discuss is held internally. It's never to undermine anybody ... The player himself makes the final decision when he's able to do his job effectively or not. A player with a bad shoulder, it's difficult to play quarterback. Everyone who feels they have to play shouldn't feel that way. I don't believe anyone has. There are certain things you have to clarify."

-- Nolan, reacting to Smith's broadside on a local morning radio show after the Mercury News article was published

"As I was driving away from the facility after addressing the media, a reporter approached my car and informed me that he was going to write an article where my teammates commented on me in a negative way."

-- Smith's official statement regarding his attack on Nolan

"I initially reacted out of frustration based on the questions that were being asked, but the article does not reflect how I truly feel. I can see how an article like this can be very damaging, but I know my relationships with coach Nolan and my teammates are stronger than that."

-- Smith

"Alex and I met today and discussed today's report. I understand how he can be caught off-guard."

-- Nolan's official statement, later that same day

"It is a difficult time for Alex."

-- Nolan

"He has not had to deal with an injury that will require surgery before. The relationship Alex and I have developed over the past three years is stronger than a negative news story."

-- Nolan

"We're a team. We're a family."

-- 49ers running back Michael Robinson (San Francisco Chronicle)


"He shook my hand and said, 'You have a head coach.'"

-- Falcons owner Arthur Blank, describing what he was told by now ex-Falcons head coach Bobby "Brutus" Petrino after the Saints-Falcons Monday Night Football contest. Less than 24 hours later Petrino quit to become head coach of the Arkansas Razorbacks.

"I think the best way to describe the way that we feel is betrayed and let down."

-- Blank

"I think the timing of Bobby's decision was wrong. It was wrong for the coaches. It was wrong for the families depending on him, that he brought here that had invested in him and invested in this team. It's also letting our players down -- the players I've heard him tell consistently to play all four quarters. All four quarters does not equal, in my opinion, 13 games."

-- Blank

"One of the reason I love the business is because of the people side -- the coaches, the staff who are everything that I believe in ... Obviously, you have times when you're disappointed. We've had a couple severe disappointments this year."

-- Blank, winning TWIQ's understatement of the year award

"It's amazing I could sleep well after that. I slept well because my wife called our PR folks and did the 'Sooey' thing or whatever it was. So I was laughing when I went to bed."

-- Blank, describing his feelings after watching Petrino's press conference wherein Petrino led the crowd in a chant of "Woo Pig Sooey!" (Atlanta Journal-Constitution)

"Jerry Jones is a big Razorback [booster]. All Jerry Jones was doing was to help everybody, if he was involved. All he did was open the doors."

-- Arkansas' outgoing athletics director Frank Broyles, describing the (somewhat surprising) role Cowboys owner Jerry Jones played in Petrino's betrayal departure

"It wasn't by courier pigeon, but not by much."

-- Blank, describing Petrino's hurried exit from the Falcons organization (Atlanta Journal-Constitution)

"It was difficult to leave Atlanta, the staff, players, fans. The timing of it probably is the thing that made it most difficult. Coming to Arkansas was the easy part."

-- Bobby Petrino

"I haven't given it one bit of thought. I certainly don't want to get into any speculation and rumors and having to deal with that. I'm focused on our football team here."

-- Petrino on November 26, 2007, denying any interest in the Arkansas job

"He just said to us, 'Guys I've resigned, I'm going to Arkansas. I'm sorry. I'll be talking with you guys in the future.' And with that he turned and walked out the door."

-- Anonymous Falcons assistant coach, describing Petrino's hasty exit (Fox Sports)


"For him to quit like that, it just shows his true color, like a coward with a yellow stripe down his back. That's how I look at it.''

-- Jaguars defensive end Grady Jackson, who was cut by Petrino in October.

"This league is not for everybody. This league is for real men. I think he realized he didn't belong here."

-- Falcons safety Lawyer Milloy.

"That's what I think brought up the anger, to have him talk about family, about team and about commitment, and then to come in here and have a form letter at your locker. That's not how a man acts. That's how a coward acts."

-- Falcons quarterback Joey Harrington -- yes, that Joey Harrington -- on Petrino's carefree demeanor at Tuesday's news conference in Arkansas.

"I think it's already in the trash."

-- Falcons center Todd McClure, on Petrino's farewell letter.(ESPN.com)


"I hope they do. I haven't been getting a lot of action, so hopefully I get a chance to make some big plays, and if the receivers come after me, I welcome it."

-- Steelers safety Anthony Smith, defending his decision to "guarantee" a Steelers win against the Patriots last Sunday. The Steelers lost to the Patriots 34-13, and Tom Brady torched Smith seemingly at will. (Pittsburgh Tribune-Review)

"Just write your own checks. Don't write checks for the whole team."

-- Smith, describing the sound advice given to him by Steelers coach Mike Tomlin prior to the game.

"I don't care to repeat it, especially if my mother reads it. She wouldn't be very happy with what I said."

-- Patriots quarterback Tom Brady, refusing to divulge what he said to Smith after throwing his first touchdown to Randy Moss (Boston Herald)

"It definitely did [motivate the Patriots]. I had a couple of their guys as I was coming on the field during the TV timeout who said, 'Why are your guys opening their mouths? We're so fired up out there.' We got some young guys. Lesson learned for the young guy.''

-- Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger (Sports Illustrated)

"The guarantee comment, I don't have a problem with it. We didn't lose a game because he made a guarantee comment. We lost the game because they executed better than we did."

-- Steelers wide receiver Hines Ward

"When you play the best team in the NFL, you definitely don't need to give them bulletin-board stuff to feed off of."

-- Ward (Pittsburgh Tribune-Review)


"All filming at last year's Patriots game was done with pre-approval from the Patriots and in accordance with NFL rules."

-- Bruce Speight, Jets' senior director of media relations, reacting to media reports that the Jets were caught using a "videotaping device" during a Jets-Patriots game last year.

"Absolutely no truth to that whatsoever. Completely false."

-- Jets general manager Mike Tannenbaum, denying that any illegal videotaping occurred (New York Newsday)

"We taped the game is what we taped, and we taped end-zone copy of the game, and we tape a double-end zone, which is standard operating procedure for us. We request that every single road game, and it's usually granted if physically it's possible. And when people request it from us, we do the same thing: We grant it."

-- Jets head coach Eric Mangini, explaining that what was taped was what was taped

"We do it every time we go on the road. We ask for permission to do it. It's within the league rules, and when people ask us to do it, we grant it, as well."

-- Mangini

"I don't know. Really, it just was what it was. We had asked for permission, it was granted and then that changed, and we respect their decision. It's their stadium."

-- Mangini, when asked why the Patriots later stopped the Jets from taping if they had previously given them permission


-- Mangini, when asked if the Jets were taping the Patriots' defensive signals

"There's a lot of things that have happened in the past. Really, the past is in the past."

-- Patriots head coach Bill Bellichick, reacting to the irony of it all (ESPN.com)


"Plenty of people told me it was a coach down there telling them to go get at me."

-- Chargers linebacker Shawne Merriman, accusing Titans head coach Jeff Fisher of ordering a "hit" on Merriman after he knocked Vince Young out of last Sunday's Chargers-Titans game (San Diego Union-Tribune)

"I didn't order a hit."

-- Titans head coach Jeff Fisher, denying he ordered the Code Red (Tennessean.com)


"People aren't used to this in Kansas City. Get over it, it happens, it's called life.''

-- Chiefs head coach Herm Edwards, responding to critics after the Chiefs were destroyed the Broncos 41-7

"What we're worrying about now is trying to figure out who to blame. But there is no blame, teams go through this.''

-- Herm

"That's football. That's the National Football League. It just hasn't happened here, it hasn't knocked on this door. It did when coach (Dick) Vermeil was 6-10 his first year here, but it hasn't since then. It kind of scurried away and went other places.''

-- Herm

"Blame me, OK? If you want to blame somebody, blame the head coach. Now you don't have to blame any more players or people in the organization, you can blame the head coach. I'm OK with that. I'm a big boy, I've been in the league a long time, and I know how it works.''

-- Herm

"We'll get this thing fixed, no doubt in my mind. It's already on the way to getting fixed; you just don't see it right now."

-- Herm (Topeka Capitol Journal)


"Here we are in the third grade ... So I went and grabbed them both and told them, 'Be quiet and stay behind the line.' So you can e-mail those folks back and say I've handled it, you know. No recess for the next 10 days."

-- Seahawks head coach Mike Holmgren, describing his efforts to intervene in a sideline squabble involving the Seahawks two strength and conditioning coaches during the Cardinals-Seahawks game (Seattle Times)

"I'd like to be back here if I'm wanted back here. We'll see what goes on ... You just look at the potential of what I can become and hopefully that's a consistent good quarterback that can make a big play here and there and still play good football without being too risky."

-- Current Chicago quarterback Rex Grossman (ESPN.com)

"I'm going to be back."

-- Optimistic Ravens head coach Brian Billick, predicting that he will not be fired in the off-season (Baltimore Sun)

"I've always been a guy that plants both feet where he is. I don't know how to do it any other way. You put your feet right where you are. You zero in on doing everything you can to help the Miami Dolphins. I think I addressed that once before, so to me it's a nonissue."

-- Dolphins head coach Cam Cameron, denying rumors that he plans to flee the shipwreck in Miami to coach at the University of Michigan (Palm Beach Post)

"Bush hit with book."

-- Title of Yahoo! Sports article about a new book concerning Reggie Bush's (possible) relationship with a sports marketing firm that may jeopardize his Heisman trophy

"I don't like all the cussing and all that stuff, but I do like to just be around the guys and stuff. You can just be open and free. It's kind of a hangout place, just a cool environment. It's kind of the same as how the women go to the beauty shop and spa and do all their little gossiping and stuff. Well, dudes just like to sit down and talk about sports, business and all that type of stuff."

-- Jaguars cornerback Scott Starks, describing why he might one day want to own a barbershop and stuff (Florida Times-Union)

"Free Mike Vick."

-- Statement on t-shirt that Falcons wide receiver Roddy White exposed after scoring a touchdown on Monday Night Football. Incidentally, it was revealed this week that Vick admitted that he personally killed two dogs, by hanging them, at the world's most infamous dogfight kennel.

Remember to send your quotes to quotes-at-footballoutsiders.com, just like thegogans and Steve Graunke did this week.

Posted by: Ben Riley on 13 Dec 2007

152 comments, Last at 20 Dec 2007, 1:48am by Sid


by Jake (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 11:58am

Well played.

by Jimmy (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 12:15pm

Why would anyone be dumb enough to wear a free Mike Vick T-shirt? Do they think it is funny?

Vick is getting what he deserves, no one made him hang those dogs or abuse the many other dogs that suffered for his own cheap thrills.

One day guys like Roddy White and Deangelo Hall will be free agents and the number of teams willing to sign them wil be dramatically reduced by their public show of support for a guy convicted of torturing animals for pleasure.

by Cyrus (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 12:21pm

Enjoyed the quotes. Lets hope the comments are not ruined by the two in question.

And yeah, Blank has been figuratively ***** slapped twice this year. I feel bad for the man, he hasn't done anything but trust people he shouldn't.

by Jesus (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 12:31pm


by Hemlock (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 12:33pm

I love the Falcons' players' reaction to Petrino's departure. Who could take him seriously at that Arkansas press conference? From now on I expect to see performances out of Harrington that can be described as "gritty," based on his quote there. Harrington = new Favre.

Irrelevant tangent: Is it possible, along with "name" and "website," to have a space to write your favorite team when you're commenting? You could leave it blank too, and you wouldn't have to deal with that annoying "As an Eagles fan..." introductory stuff.

by James, London (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 12:44pm

Some truly great quotes this week. I really like the Joey Harrington one. Wasn't part of the knock on him in Detroit was that he didn't 'lead' the way a QB is supposed to?

Herm was very cool again.

by Joe T. (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 12:44pm

Joey Harrington is my hero.

by ChargersFan (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 12:45pm

Belicheat's comment about Smith, as well as Shady Brady's comment (which apparently he can't say because of how nasty it is) shows how disgustingly classless they are.

I mean Bellicheat assaulted a cameraman (which he should be sitting in jail for), doesn't like shaking hands of opposing coaches, apparently cheated on his wife, and so on. I would not be able to stand being a Patriots fan because I'd be embarrassed by Bellicheat.

And then we have Shady Brady, the most arrogant player I've ever seen, yelling at the Refs. He should be ejected from games for that.

Not to mention that the Patriots cheated their way to three superbowls and only have Randy Moss because if their ill-gotten success. Which means that if the Pats win any superbowls with Randy Moss, they will be invalid. So not only have the patriots not won a valid superbowl, they can't win one in the near future. There's really no reason to be a Patriots fan.

by Costa (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 12:45pm

Many guys seem to try to incorporate it in their name in some fashion.

by Costa (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 12:47pm

You seem to have posted that ridiculous comment in the wrong website. foxsports.com is thataway.

by AlexDL (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 12:52pm

oh yeah ChargersFan? LaDainian kicks kittens and Shawne Merriman bites babies. They also both have stupidly spelled first names.
So there.

by Temo (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 12:56pm

To add onto Chargerfan's statements, the Patriots are doomed to an eternity in hell wherein they'll play in a league that they always win, but never receive the trophy for their past crimes.

by JJcruiser (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:04pm

Unlike most of you raving dog lover PETA lunatics that think dog lives equal human lives (and the media sycophants who cater to you), I think he was punished far too harshly. So I loved the "Free Mike Vick" shirt. I thought it was the most entertaining aspect of that game.

by starzero (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:10pm

i didn't see that one coming. is something wrong when i suddenly have respect for joey harrington?

by C (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:11pm


by B (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:14pm

13: I'm a proud meat-eater and no supporter of Peta, but I think that forcing dogs to fight and electoructing the losers is wrong, and I feel that Vick got the proper punishment for his crimes.

by Charger Jeff (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:14pm

RE: #12

Like USC?

by Phil (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:15pm

Are you suggesting that 2 years of jail is only sufficient if you killed a human being?

Explain, with detail (preferably facts) please, why you think he was punished far to harshly....

by Johonny (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:16pm

There is simply nothing interesting about the AFC east. The Pats are so much better than the Dolphins, Jets and Bills who cares. AFC east divisional games use to be some of the most exciting in football, now the division is decided in week 1 of the year. The Pats got hammered because the commissioner in the off season made it a point to tell all teams to stop doing exactly what they did. If the Jets filmed signals this season, well then we got a story. Here's how you know the beat writers are bored: spygate and 35 year old teams are vastly more interesting for them to write about than anything going on the field.

by Geronimo (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:19pm

13: I don't get where you get your comparison between animal lives and human lives. If Vick had been convicted of torturing people, he'd get more than 23 months, no?

While we're at it: you don't have to be a member of PETA to think that society has an interest in deterring people from being animal-torturers.

by Christina (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:22pm

Re. 8:

I didn't know LdT read FO...

by Dr. Steelers Fan, Like the Last Dozen Times I Posted (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:23pm

Hemlock: good idea.

by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:27pm

Observing from afar, I really haven't been too impressed by the professionalism of the Falcons' players, and not just because of the Vick stuff. Turns out their coach was the biggest punk of them all.

Regarding the Holmgren quote; what the hell would two strength and conditioning coaches have to fight about during a game? Proper squat techniques? Holmgren musta' been incredulous. Here you are, a NFL head coach, trying to do everything to get your team to obtain that most precious commodity in the league, a win, and on top of everything else, you have to spend time getting the two coaches with the least amount of gameday responsibilities to stop fighting. Geeze, if it had been a road game, Holmgren would have been justified in making the morons fly back commercial, on their own dime.

by Costa (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:29pm

Please can we keep the political discussions out of this forum?

PS: Love the Dymo tape anti-spam word design. =P

by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:36pm

Hey, JJ? Beyond the valid point that society has an interest in preventing the torture of animals that goes beyond the concern for animals' welfare, here's a clue: when one pleads guilty to a felony, while agreeing to submit to drug testing prior to sentencing, and to fully cooperate with law enforcement, and one then decides to get high, and to lie to law enforcement, then maybe, just maybe, the judge is going to drop the hammer.

Life's too short to worry about wealthy imbeciles like Michael Vick. Vick is lucky that the feds haven't decided to prosecute him again, this time for lying to an FBI Agent. What a towering dunce, and good riddance.

by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:44pm

"Belicheat’s comment about Smith, as well as Shady Brady’s comment (which apparently he can’t say because of how nasty it is) shows how disgustingly classless they are."

Listen to the rest of the press conference Brady did. While he was stretching on the sidelines before the game, Smith was swearing at him, and making derogatory comments.

by Waverly (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:45pm

Everyone, please assume that there's a :-) appended to each post.

(But of course this post does not end in :-)

by Scott (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 1:55pm

Ah hell, let's do the whole thing:
Jeff Fisher says:
"You can't handle the truth! We live in a world that has backs. And those backs have to be guarded by linemen with arms like guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nate Keading? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Merriman and you curse the Titans. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Merriman's knee injury, while tragic, probably saved our playoff chances. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, earns us a six seed. You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about during TV timeouts, you want me ordering that hit. You need me ordering that hit.

We use words like trap, stunt, shotgun...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending LP Field. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who drops back and passes under the blanket of the very pocket I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on to the next play. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a helmet and get into a three-point stnace. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

by doktarr (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:00pm

Getting this one in before the thread goes totally bonkers:

- It's great for the media to make stories from, but the reason the Patriots won had nothing to do with "the guarantee". As Ward said, they executed better. Actually, the Patriots just ARE better.

Is the implication that the Patriots don't play hard when they aren't insulted in the preceeding week? Just out of curiosity, what is their record in unguaranteed games this year? Undefeated, right? I thought so.

- The Jets story is a total nonissue. Nobody with any authority has even claimed a rules violation. There's not even any irony here. Complete, total, nonissue, being created by the media to generate storylines.

by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:00pm

Goodness, no! Not cussing on an NFL football field! I think Dick Butkus heard about this and fainted!!

by Richard Arpin (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:03pm

As a Pat's fan I was happy with the Patriots going after the Steelers safety, not just because he had a loud mouth, but because it worked. Smith is young and he bites on play fakes, the Pat's saw that and thats how they ran it.

Hearing Smiths conversation with the reporter though that the 'guarantee' came out in, it definitely seemed to me that the reporter was digging a bit and Smith just got dragged into his comments. Not like he was so arrogant, more just like he was dumb enough to be manipulated by a reporter. Oh, well, when stuff is out there it's out there. What's smith supposed to say after he says "we're gonna win"? Does he say, "oops, no, we're not, I was joking", He was showing confidence and when the reporter asked if that was a guarantee he should have said "nothing can be guaranteed but we're going to give it our best shot, were not going out there to be patsies."

Smith stepped into a trap comment and he wasn't even aware of it, personally, I like Harrison's comments because it show's his head's on the level. I want a safety that is shrewd, sly, and aware. Maybe Smith will develop that.

After the game when asked about Smith, Harrison said that he was pretty quiet early on in his own career because he wanted to learn and that Smith was learning about media in the league at that moment. He then said something about Smith being a fine guy, just needing to take his game up with playing experience. Personally, I think Smith is fine, that's why it's almost been a non issue so far on this board compared to the Falcons stuff.

by Costa (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:03pm

Not bad! =D

Now do with Bill Belicheck playing Nicholson's role to Roger Goodell's Tom Cruise based on the awesome quotes Trent Green had in the TWIQ linked when you click my name. =P

by Costa (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:05pm

D'oh! Forgot the link. Fixed in this comment and posting it verbatim for good measure.


by Karl Cuba (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:07pm

28: very well done

by Sidartha Gautama (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:08pm


by Scott (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:11pm

Actually Costa my favorite part of that scene is when they're taking him away and Jack says, "This is funny. That's what this is."

Of course the Kevin Bacon role goes to Steve Sabol who's kind of sad to have to have Belichick arrested. Mike Perreira is Lt. Weinberg. And as for Demi Moore, I vote for Jamie Dukes. "But we strenuously object your honor..."

by vijay (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:15pm

#28 - Best post of the year. Period.

by Steve (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:20pm

I'm not a fan of the way Petrino left but... I wonder if Blank had fired him if the same cries of disloyalty would be heard. i highly doubt it. The players on that team were publicly slamming the guy and he had lost any hope of turning it around. It's a business, not a family.

Petrino handled it exceedingly poorly and he went out with no class, but I can't blame him for ditching. That was a sinking ship and he could have never saved it. He was dead man walking around week 6.

by Hollywood55 (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:29pm


by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:29pm

You are right, steve, it's a business, which is why guys like Petrino are such jackasses when they preach that family crap to their players. What do you think Petrino's response is going to be when a player he values at Arkansas decides that he would rather play at USC, and asks Petrino to waive the one year sit-out rule for such transfers?

by Geronimo (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:39pm

Re: Anthony Smith, etc.

Sports reporters are lazy and generally pretty ignorant of football from a technical point of view -- sure, they know facts and stats better than your typical bar-mates. But they can't really explain what happens on a particular play any better than any informed fan can.

This is why they focus on irrelevant "narratives" and "storylines." Hence Jim Nantz simply not shutting up about Anthony Smith. (I'd like to hear Nantz guarantee that he's going to be interesting next week, and then deal with round-the-clock media scrutiny about his performance.)

Reporters try to goad athletes like Smith, and then when they serve up something quotable, every reporter on every sports media outlet pummels it to death.

In general, sports journalism is an absolute disaster, the most braindead segment of a generally stupid media landscape.

Another reason why I love FO.

by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:45pm

"Sports reporters are lazy and generally pretty ignorant of football from a technical point of view — sure, they know facts and stats better than your typical bar-mates. But they can’t really explain what happens on a particular play any better than any informed fan can."

Exactly. The Patriots picked on Anthony Smith not because he talked smack, but because hes a mismatch. The fact that Tomlin didn't change coverages any when they made it obvious that "burn anthony smith" was the gameplan is whats kind of damning.

by calig23 (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 2:58pm

Another acknowledged that certain members of the team have derisively referred to Smith as “The Lion,” as in the one without courage in “The Wizard of Oz.”

– Criticism of Smith by unidentified 49ers players (as reported in the Mercury News article)

There's a certain irony in calling a teammate gutless, but not allowing yourself to be identified. Who is the real coward here?

by Normal People Everywhere (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:19pm


by Fire Millen (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:22pm

Maybe the "FREE MIKE VICK" t-shirt was a teammate doing a favor for Vick by advertising Mike's services at the only price anyone would pay.

by MJK (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:23pm

The Mangini story to me is interesting not because I think the Jets were necessarily doing anything wrong, but because a lot of people (not the league, but many, many fans, and far too many sportswriters) were on Belichick's case not because he violated the letter of a specific rule, but because he had the gall to (gasp!) actually videotape the opposing team!

Now it's clear that Mangini at least was videotaping too. (Probably other coaches do as well, especially if doing so from the end zone is indeed legal). Even Mangini is right and what he did was completely legal (and there's still some doubt about that), it makes it harder to be morally outraged at Belichick.

Either you have to believe that videotaping is morally wrong and gives you an unfair advantage and invalidates all your previous success (which seemed to be position of a surprisingly large number of people), in which case Mangini and any other coachs who have hired a videographer should be punished regardless of the technicality of where they were standing, or the moral outrage at Belichick dies away when you realize that he got punished not because he was using that evil video machine, but because his videographer happened to be standing in a slightly different position on the field--a position that technically wasn't allowed by the rules, but that Belichick had had him in twice before and never been punished for.

It makes it all more clear that many of the posters here were right: Belichick and the Pats were not punished because the "cheated", but because Belichick is an anti-social SOB who pissed off Goddell and the media with his arrogant attitude by violating the letter of a rule (which now appears to be far less black-and-white than many people claimed) and then insisting that he was in the right.

by David (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:24pm

8 - your post was mentioned in completely different thread as evidence that foxsports.com-style idiocy finds its way onto our generally excellent message boards sometimes. And I have to say, it did not disappoint. I suppose that we need posts like this every once in a while, just to remind us how good we have it here.

by MJK (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:27pm

OK, now that I've done my share to help ruin the thread, I'll talk about something else.

Boy, what a mess in San Francisco! I live in the bay area, and all you can hear about this team is doom and gloom. It's a good thing the Raiders don't completely suck (I can't believe that I, a New-Englander, just wrote that), or else the entire area might just committ football suicide.

So what's the verdict? Is Alex Smith a nice kid that an evil and manipulative Nolan is using as a scapegoat? Or is Alex Smith a whiny brat that is trying to attack a good coach who has had some bad luck and some struggles but is on his way to turning the team around? Or are they both jerks? I tend to lean towards mostly the first case, although I think these exchanges run a lot deeper than we're seeing. San Francisco maybe needs a new coach AND a new QB... But I guess that's hardly insightful...

by MJK (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:29pm

I thought 8 was toung-in-cheek irony, meant to be amusing, like raiderjoe. Anything that over the top couldn't actually be serious, right? I didn't think people could actually be that shallow, vindictive, and incapable of rational independent thought... Maybe I should read the FOX comments more...

by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:32pm

David, I castigate you for inducing me to go back and read #8, but since Chargersfan brought it up, could we please get rid of the post-game coaches' handshake?

by TomC (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:33pm

Dr. Z has the following to say about the A. Smith guarantee (in his Steelers comment in the Power Rankings):

Let me tell you a story. Rams vs. Giants, 1970. Ram coach George Allen found some obscure quote by Giants' QB Fran Tarkenton about other defenses that were on a par with that of the Fearsome Foursome Rams. Allen had the thing reproduced and blown up, and he papered their locker room with it. L.A. won, 30-3. It became everyone's angle. Vengeance is Mine, Sayeth the Ram. I got hold of Ram DT Merlin Olsen in the locker room, alone, after the game. "Let's say there's absolutely no Tarkenton quote," I said. "No one's said a thing. What would the score of the game be?" "Thirty to three," he said.

by Spenserhawk (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:35pm


Kudos for the adaption...especially the Nate Kaeding inclusion. Best thing I've read all week!

by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:37pm

MJK, I don't know anything about Smith and Nolan, but I am frequently surprised that getting a second medical opinion on potentially serious injuries is not done 100% of the time when it involves people who have received several million dollar guarantees. I don't want to hear the voice of James Andrews saying "Gosh, this is much worse than I thought", several weeks after the injury was suffered.

by B (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:40pm

I think the differing outrage for Bellicheck vs Mangini is Bellicheck filmed the opposing team's defensive signals, whereas Mangini's cameras were focused on the field of play. Both are against the rules of the NFL, who doesn't like anybody filming their product besides themselves, but Bellicheck's actions are more troubling.
Just to tie this into the other debate in this thread, what Vick is being punsihed for, illegal gambling, isn't seen as as bad as the torturing and killing of dogs.

by Shocker (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:44pm

I don't think most people, even non-PETA people, equate human lives with dogs. After all, we don't euthanise orphans. However, the majority of people would agree it's still terrible to torture and kill animals.

And regardless, his 23 months is for violating other laws (interstate gambling, etc). And most people would still agree, that the few years he may get for the actual crime of killing the dogs, is sufficiently less than someone who murdered several people would get.

by TomC (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:45pm

Will (#52) -

Not to mention the fact that the medical staff employed by the franchise is by definition not necessarily going to act in the best interest of the athlete.

by Ceiling Fan (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:52pm

#41 - Yes, yes, yes.

by Scott (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 3:58pm

Re: 51. Thanks. I just figured it would get beaten to death in pieces so why not put it all there at once.

As for this week's quotes, the best of the week was left off: "We've played against a lot better safeties, I can tell you that." B. Belichick.

It's great because it's so out of character for Mr. Monotone. Usually he'd be droning on about "all three phases" and "moving on to next week" and so forth.

by MP (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 4:07pm

I was at the Niners-Vikings game last Sunday, and I can tell you what the fans there are saying:

* Guy next to me: "Nolan brought Smith back too early on purpose. He wanted to say, 'Look, the team's losing because Smith is bad, not because I'm an awful coach!'"

* The entire stadium, whenever Trent Dilfer came on the field: "BOOOOO! YOU SUCK!" Etc.

* A guy a few rows ahead of me, after the Vikings scored to make it 27-0: "It took twenty-six years for this team to make me leave before halftime."

* A fifteen-year-old kid near me, after Trent Dilfer ran on 4TH-and-2, got knocked down, and didn't get back up: "HE'S HURT! HE'S HURT! YEEAAAHHHH! DILFER IS HURT! YEEAAAHHHHH! WOOO!" This is really the first instance I can remember of a fan leaping up and literally dancing with joy that one of his own players was badly hurt. To be fair, everyone else in the stadium cheered when Dilfer got to his feet. ("Biggest cheer he's had in this town," the guy next to me said.)

by Bob Coluccio (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 4:09pm

People misunderstood the "Free Mike Vick" t-shirt. It was an advertisement, like "Free Ice Cream."

by Bob Coluccio (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 4:16pm

Damn. Someone beat me to it.

by Ben (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 4:24pm

MJK There is a difference between taping the game so you can analyze your play and your opponents and taping the other team's coach to get their signals. I don't remember anyone making the argument you are attacking here.

by George W. Bush (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 4:25pm

Now, uhm, I think what Michael Vick did is wrong. Definitely wrong. I love all them little animals. But if he wants to torture somethin', I say we send him to Gitmo or I-rack! Torture is okay, there!

by B (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 4:27pm

60: Actually, it's a new promotion by the Falcons. Free Mike Vick with purchase of 2 season tickets. So far, they have no offers.

by mawbrew (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 4:43pm

So did Herm really say that the KC fans hadn't experienced watching their team get destroyed until he became the head coach? He may not be a bad coach, but if this qoute is accurate it's hard to see how he can hold a job for long.

I can just imagine the boss pulling this one out at performance review time.

by mm (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 4:48pm

re: "free michael vick"

it's actual an elision (that word alone oughta send ChargersFan and his Fox posse running), like the "end construction" signs which really mean "end of construction"

in this case he is celebrating being "free [of] Michael Vick"

by Bobman (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 5:19pm

so many good comments. Scott #28, you are a god.

#64, very nice also. Maybe it's like, "Get locked in this cell for two nights and you get Free Mike Vick!" or, if there's a chance of exchanging STDs, maybe it should be "Free Ron Mexico."

Not to bash Brady and I admire his fire jawing at Smith, but what was the old hypocrite doing in his press conf saying, in effect, that actions speak louder than words and "that's not what our team is about." (Cannot find article with exact quote, but that's the gist.) Torch him with a TD pass, great. but then he goes and talks. Like a bully or a punk, when you put somebody in their place, there's no need to rub it in, is there? But at least he could have sheepishly said to the media "Well, maybe I guaranteed a few things back to him. Let's leave it at that." It would have been more honest.

I'm sure most of you don't want to hear my view of "sportsmanship" because far too often I look at life as the father of three young boys, but if my 7 year-old flattens somebody in a football game, I congratulate him on the sideline. If he flattens somebody and stands over him jawing, he won't play another football game that season. That is not part of the game. It's not in anybody's playbook and in fact there are rules against it, even in the NFL (taunting). (On top of that, in a moderate-contact flag league this year he was blocking and just freakin' crushed a LB who was half his size. I was surprised the kid got up. I ran out onto the field and told my son to go to the other team's huddle and make sure the kid was okay. Of course I can't wait to see him doing that in ten years when everyone's level of play is closer.)

No need to point out that possibly injuring somebody and torching them are very different. I know. But when you are the best, you should be above the petty squabbles of mere mortals. Show some noblesse oblige.

by Jesse (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 5:24pm


Love the Herm quotes. He's insane, as usual. I just wish Les Miles was in the NFL. Then we could have three threads: The Week in Quotes, The Week in Herm, and The Week in Les

by FoxSportsFan!1!!!!1! (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 5:30pm

mm, ur a ****!!1!!

it wasn't an elision. i saw it with mine own eyes.


ps - the cowgirls and patsies are going down in the wildcard round!

by mactbone (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 5:38pm

Re 46:
One could also argue that the people who think that everyone videotapes and that it's perfectly acceptable behavior would have a problem with BB stopping someone from engaging in that behavior.

by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 5:41pm

MJK There is a difference between taping the game so you can analyze your play and your opponents and taping the other team’s coach to get their signals. I don’t remember anyone making the argument you are attacking here.
Actually, as reiterated at the beginning of this season in the letter from the NFL to every team, the subject of the tape is irrelevant to the rule: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game." (emphasis added)

Therefore, regardless of what the Jets were videotaping, they were in violation of the rule, unless they were doing it from locations not accessible to club staff members (not sure what those would be in a football stadium), in which case they could have been happily taping signaling coaches without problems. Don't ask me why that is, but that's the rule.

Again, without really wanting to beat a dead horse's now well-decomposed carcass, it clearly was not BB's violation of the taping rule that pissed off the league. Just in the past few weeks, Green Bay officials have admitted that their players violated the "bounty" rule (and for the record, the Pats may have done so as well, according to some news report), and Jon Gruden publicly admitted he has violated the rules regarding injury reports. Neither event has instigated investigations, reprimands or fines from the league (let alone media feeding frenzies comparable to the taping scandal). It would seem that BB pissed off the league for some other reason(s), and the taping affair seemed to the NFL head honchos like a perfect way to teach him a lesson.

by A Blank (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 5:42pm

I want the truth !!!

by B Petrino (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 5:43pm

You can't handdle the truth !!!!

by david (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 5:44pm

69 - oh my goodness... It's hilarious on so many levels. Well, mainly just the one level, but the mistaking elision for illusion... Pure, pure gold. Dammit, I just started giggling again.

by L Hutz (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 6:03pm

Michael Vick works on Contingency?
No, Money Down!

by Tri Shanku (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 6:04pm

I find Vick's actions reprehensible, I think he got no more than he deserved, and I find it strange (to say the least) when someone demands for his freedom, but if an individual decides to wear such an opinion on his/her T-shirt, is it not that individual's right to do so? I am not trying to start a flame war, honestly trying to get an opinion here.

And regarding #35, is there any basis to assume that Buddha would preach for pardoning Vick? Again, I do not know enough about Buddhism -- I am really curious.

by Jimi (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 6:16pm

Re: #8

I think we need to remove the security word from this site and replace it with an IQ test for first-time posters to avoid inane wastes of text like that.

by Will Allen (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 6:21pm

Yes, Tri, such an individual has the right to wear such a shirt. Everyone else has the right to subject such a person to merciless ridicule.

by MJK (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 6:36pm

Tri, such an individual has the right to wear such a shirt. Everyone else has the right to subject such a person to merciless ridicule.

Free speech is our constitutionally protected right to let everyone else know what an idiot we are.

by MJK (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 6:37pm

I actually liked Herm's quotes. Yes, he's always amusing, but I thought his quotes this week showed good character and good leadership.

by Starshatterer (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 7:03pm

if an individual decides to wear such an opinion on his/her T-shirt, is it not that individual’s right to do so?
Yes, but...

That does not give them an inherent right to show it on TV during an NFL game. Roddy White could be subject to league discipline for his display of a non-league-approved shirt (cf. Terrell Owens and his "Touchdown Towel").

by mm (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 7:36pm

74: dear sweet baby christmas, I hope post 69 was parody (actual parody, not self-parody...)

by Bob in Jax (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 7:49pm

#69 -- excellent! Still laughing!

by Bob in Jax (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 7:52pm

Oh, and does anyone else remember MJD scoring a touchdown as a rookie, lifting his jersey to reveal his "Superman" (logo) shirt, and later being fined for the privilege?

by david (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 8:02pm

82- I'm positive that it was. I'm not very good at picking up things like that (for instance, it never even occurred to me that 8 might be a joke, which I hope it was) but 69 was just too perfect to be serious.

by Bobman (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 8:17pm

Not that anyone is waiting around for this, but I did find some actual quotes I referred to in #67 and I was a bit off. My apologies.

"Well done is better than well said," Brady said. "That's been the motto of the team."

Aside from sounding like Forrest Gump, nowhere does he say that he WOULDN'T talk, as I interpreted it. But Seau does in the next graph:

"That wouldn't happen in this locker room. It just wouldn't," Junior Seau said. "We won't allow it. We don't talk."

Well, yeah, they do, a bit, but after the event and not before. But I get the point and retract my previous one about hypocracy. Full article, which you have already seen no doubt, linked at my name.

Sheesh, next thing you know I'll start genuflecting every time I see a 12. (NOT TO START THAT AGAIN!)

Go teams!

by Bobman (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 8:20pm

IMO, #69 was an excellent joke but #8 was serious. Just a hunch.

by Purds (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 8:22pm

Excellent comments!

I must be missing something about the Jets video story, so please set me right, but to me, this just-discovered episode explains EXACTLY why the Jets, and Mangini, "ratted out" Bellicheck this season. Follow my logic:

1) Last year, the Jets routinely film games from the end zones with permission of opposing teams.
2) Bellicheck changes the norm and denies Mangini and the Jets the right to tape from the end zones. Mangini and Jets comply
3) This year, when Mangiini sees Bellicheck and NE videotaping from an illegal position, Mangini pays BB back by calling in the NFL

To me, this episode from last year does no harm to the Jets, as they clearly asked permission and stopped when that permission was denies. In fact, this episode seems to JUSTIFY Mangini's decision to stop BB from video taping in NY.

Where is my logic or timeline off?

by Purds (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 8:24pm

The Pats talk all the time, Bobman. But you're right, they do it during or after the game -- witness the niceties that Harrison fired off at Billick (sp?) that had the Baltimore coach sending kisses HGHarrison's way.

by Jerry (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 8:26pm

A couple of things:

- I have no problem with Roddy White wearing a T-shirt in support of his friend, especially since the judge wasn't going to see it and say, "I'll reconvene court tomorrow and release Vick."

- It makes it all more clear that many of the posters here were right: Belichick and the Pats were not punished because the “cheated”, but because Belichick is an anti-social SOB who pissed off Goddell and the media with his arrogant attitude by violating the letter of a rule (which now appears to be far less black-and-white than many people claimed) and then insisting that he was in the right.

This assumes that videotaping signals (after the league had specifically told them not to) is all that the Patriots did. That may be the case, but the NFL's destruction of the evidence means we'll never know for sure.

- I'm amazed that the Patriots were so affected by Anthony Smith's guarantee; it seems like continuing the "Anthony Who?" stuff after the game would have made the point just as well. If the Pats are so susceptible to comments, perhaps someone will figure out how to get inside their heads in the next few weeks.

- I was just disappointed, on the other hand, by Nantz talking during the fourth quarter about how sad it was that Smith succeeded in getting himself publicity with his guarantee, when he and Simms mentioned the guarantee so much during the broadcast.

by Bobby Shaw (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 8:33pm

#84: MJD is a biter.

by NF (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 9:25pm

What happened to the Terrell Owens-Keyshawn Johnson-Bill Parcells dispute? That had better be in next weeks TWIQ.

Also, comment 28 is awesome.

by MJK (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 9:58pm

IMO, #69 was an excellent joke but #8 was serious. Just a hunch.

If #8 was serious, maybe it explains why we have so few trolls here. Nothing irritates a troll more than posting what they think is a contentious comment and then seeing it ignored, or worse, taken to be parody and laughed at. Ah, the power of a sense of humor!

by DolFan 316 (not verified) :: Thu, 12/13/2007 - 10:08pm

Speaking of jokes I thought this one was aiight. I got it from the site linked in my name (another poster came up with it).

God asks Peyton Manning first: "What do you believe?"
Peyton thinks long and hard, looks God in the eye, and says,

"I believe in hard work, and in staying true to family and friends. I believe in giving. I was lucky, but I always tried to do right by my fans."

God can't help but see the essential goodness of Manning, and offers him a seat to his left.

Then God turns to Tony Romo and says, "What do you believe?"

Tony says, "I believe passion, discipline, courage and honor are the fundamentals of life. I, too, have been lucky, but win or lose, I've always tried to be a true sportsman, both on and off the playing fields."

God is greatly moved by Tony's sincere eloquence, and he offers him a seat to his right.

Finally, God turns to Tom Brady: "And you, Tom, what do you believe?"

Tom replies, "I believe you're in my seat."

'Nuff said.

by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 1:00am

1) Last year, the Jets routinely film games from the end zones with permission of opposing teams.
2) Bellicheck changes the norm and denies Mangini and the Jets the right to tape from the end zones. Mangini and Jets comply
3) This year, when Mangiini sees Bellicheck and NE videotaping from an illegal position, Mangini pays BB back by calling in the NFL

To me, this episode from last year does no harm to the Jets, as they clearly asked permission and stopped when that permission was denies. In fact, this episode seems to JUSTIFY Mangini’s decision to stop BB from video taping in NY.

Where is my logic or timeline off?
You are probably right. BB was docked half a mil by the league, and his team lost a first round pick, for being impolite.

by Kai (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 1:02am

"ps - the cowgirls and patsies are going down in the wildcard round!

:: FoxSportsFan!1!!!!1! — 12/13/2007 @ 3:30 pm "

69... you are either spoofing or an idiot...I am not sure which, since neither the Cowboys nor the Patriots are playing in the wildcard round...

by Purds (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 1:31am


That's not much of a logical response. My comment made no reference to the justice or not of BB's fine, or the draft loss. I ask again, how does this line of events NOT exonerate Mangini from being the bad guy, the "rat" who wouldn't play nice with the other coaches? In this sequence, he's just reacting (and obviously escalating) BB's move last year. It's not Mangini's fault that BB was deemed at egregious fault by the NFL.

Really, if what I outlined isn't right, show me where the logic fails.

by MJK (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 2:00am


Mangini knew perfectly well that he was going to get Belichick and the Patriots into trouble. You're sequence of events is probably about right, except for #3. I'm sure Mangini didn't see the Pats guy taping and decide to report it because Belichick hadn't let him do his videotaping. Mangini KNEW that the Pats guy would be videotaping, because he knew what Belichick does (and apparently, so did various other coaches around the league).

Maybe Belichick got punished harder than Mangini intended, and maybe Mangini ended up opening a bigger can of worms than he thought he would, but that doesn't exhonerate him any. If you yell "fire" in a theatre, it doesn't matter that you didn't realize how bad the consequences might be.

But my point wasn't that Mangini is any more diabolical than we thought because of the evidence. In fact, part of my point was that that is not what's interesting to me about this. I don't think (or particularly care) whether or not Mangini is a bad guy, or whether or not he was justified in ratting out Belichick. Fact is, Belichick was breaking the rules and got punished. Fine.

My point was that the really interesting thing about this is that it makes it clear that a lot of coaches, Jets included, videotape at games, and that there is obviously some ambiguity as to whether or not it is allowed, and how it is allowed (i.e. Mangini seems to think his taping was completely legal, although the letter of the rule implies that it is not, given the line about anywhere in the stadium accessible to the team staff). Hence it's possible that the rule wasn't as cut and dried, at least in practice, as it initially seemed, and a lot of the outrage at Belichick and the Pats, and the talk that all their past record was somehow tainted, all because they had been videotaping something, is now revealed to be especially over the top, given that apparently a lot of teams videotape, and the place where the Pats differed from other teams is where their videographer happened to be standing...

by hwc (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 3:09am

As for this week’s quotes, the best of the week was left off: “We’ve played against a lot better safeties, I can tell you that.” B. Belichick.

It’s great because it’s so out of character for Mr. Monotone. Usually he’d be droning on about “all three phases” and “moving on to next week” and so forth.

Belichick has trashed someone from the opposing team on two other occasions. Both very pointed.

After FredEx (Freddie Michell) shot his mouth off before the Patriots/Eagles SuperBowl, Belichick made a point of calling him out in a post-game press conference. He said, "Michell is a terrible receiver..." Not much of a recommendation for FredEx who was testing the free agent market.

The other was a comment about Steve Gutman, the President of the Jets who called Belichick mentally unstable when he resigned as HC of the NYJ. Years later, something came up about Gutman in a press conference. Belichick, very slowly and precisely said, "I'm only going to say this once. I've never met anyone who knows less about professional football than Steve Gutman." When you consider all the idiots Belichick has met during his decades in the league, not exactly a ringing endorsement.

by hwc (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 3:15am

It would seem that BB pissed off the league for some other reason(s), and the taping affair seemed to the NFL head honchos like a perfect way to teach him a lesson.

The real issue was that Kraft has strongly supported a different candidate for the commissioner's job. This was Goodell's payback.

by ChargersFan (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 3:21am

21, I'm a big fan of LdT because he tells it like it is, especially when talking about the Patriots. Just like I'm sure Smith was telling it like it is to Brady on the sidelines. And for Brady to say what he did, whatever that was, was absolutely horrifying. How can anyone support a team with a quarterback like that?

by hwc (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 3:21am

My favorite Pats trash talk was something Mike Vrabel said to Philip Rivers:

"You're no Drew Brees. I know it. You know it. And, every player in your huddle knows it."

by hwc (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 3:24am

I’m a big fan of LdT because he tells it like it is, especially when talking about the Patriots.

Ladianian Tomlinson is one of the biggest cry-baby whiners in the NFL. The whole team is a bunch of whiners.

by ChargersFan (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 3:34am

103, Tomlinson is the only player with enough class to tell everyone what's up with the Patriots.

by mlc0808 (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 4:11am


Yes. Sportsmanship has no place in sports.

by masocc (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 5:53am

Re: #96

As the original author, I can definitively state that the answer is C, all of the above. I was spoofing, and yes, I'm an idiot. (Though for the record, I knew at the time that they couldn't lose in the wildcard round... I was inspired by a wunderkind over on Fox that said something to the effect of "The Colts will win the Superbowl! The Pats will lose to the Jets this week and finish the season 19-1!!"

by Richard Arpin (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 7:19am

104, In regards to LdT.

He tells it like it is, like how he said he loved Philip Rivers in the after game Press Conference, but yet has clear attitude problems during games. I'd rather cheer for a team that gets fired up trashing the other team (Pats) rather than their own (Chargers). Classy!

I'm surprised that wasn't in TWIQ.

Oh, and three words
Merriman - Steroids - Suspension

by Richard Arpin (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 7:27am


Maybe that's why Kraft gave Belichick a contract extension the day after the league fined both of them. It's not just the players giving the big F*** you to the league, maybe it's ownership too!

by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 9:27am

If anything, that would be more damning for Mangini and the Jets. They could simply have told BB to stop, and chose not to and involve the league.

Regardless, the only hypothesis that this episode clearly reinforces is that BB had evidence that other teams tape(d), and that this may be the reason why the league hastened to close this case and later ones.

by Herm? (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 10:23am

I swear, ChargersFan is not a real person. No one is this dumb. It has to be a spoof...someone being funny, right?

Will Allen, is that you?

by gnomonclature (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 11:28am

88 (Purds)-
It wouldn't be a thread without your Pats hatred. That alone is enough to make one take a harder look at your "logic".

Point 1: Doing something routinely doesn't make it legal. It makes it routine. If someone robs your house every Sunday for the next few months, will you defend him in court on the basis that it was done routinely?

Point 2: Do you have evidence that Belichick was the one who asked the Jets employee to stop taping? Is he on the video making the request?

Point 3: The Patriots stopped the taping, but didn't call in the league. Responding in kind might be easier to defend. Going nuclear after a border incident is much less defensible.

Of course, I don't expect anything less from you. Keep the aqua regia flowin'.

by SGT Ben (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 11:35am

"Unlike most of you raving dog lover PETA lunatics that think dog lives equal human lives (and the media sycophants who cater to you), I think he was punished far too harshly. So I loved the “Free Mike Vick” shirt. I thought it was the most entertaining aspect of that game."

I'm not a raving dog lover PETA lunatic. I don't believe animmal lives are the equivelant of human lives. However, I do not condone the torture and death of lesser creatures. The uproar over this is that he tortured and killed those dogs because the couldn't fight well enough. They didn't meet a standard.

If their lives were equal to human lives, then you should be tortured and killed because you don't meet the right criteria in the common sense department. I don't hunt and kill animals I won't eat.

Violence for sport is wrong when those creatures committing the violence gain nothing. If two guys want to get paid to box or MMA or play football and get hurt in the process, they still benifited. The dogs gain nothing but pain, scars and the opportunity for more of the same.

by mactbone (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 11:40am

OK, so apparently Pats fans are more paranoid than I thought. Not only does nobody respect the team, but the league itself is actively punishing them.

Have fun with that guys, I'm sure FOX sports fans would love to hear more theories about how the league is out to screw the Pats.

by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 12:05pm

I don't think anyone is being paranoid. We are just trying to make sense of widely disparate and sometimes obviously contradictory reactions from the league, the media and some individuals to very similar violations of written rules with potential effects on competitive balance.

The Pats patent violation of the taping rule made the NFL issue its harshest penalty ever for a team, the media go all-out with unsupported speculations and moralizing sermons, and commenters on this board engage in displays of self-righteous piety and rage at the Pats' cheating ways.

Later revelations of very similar violations of the same or other equally established rules have brought about little more than shrugs. I can expect this from the media and the Pats-hating crowd, but the embarrassed, strange silence of the league calls for some sort of explanation.

by Herm? (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 12:08pm

Let's bring it back one step from idiotic and to relevant football game topics...
I don't recall too many Falcons fans here...but they must be down, and they have a matchup against a team they'll have no business beating.
On top of that, Tampa Bay laid an egg last week and should come out strong and make up for it.
The analytical side of me says Tampa Bay outclasses them across every category, and this should be a 3 touchdown difference...but something tells me (the nonanalytical hunch side) says this is the week that Atlanta comes together, sends a middle finger to Petrino and Vick, and leaves everything on the field, with an effective pass rush and DeAngelo Hall shutting down Galloway.
Nah, their quarterback situation is horrific and they can't stop the run. They'll lose by 10.

by dbt (Bears fan) (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 12:26pm

A few Fold Card Hootball Hacts:

One, Goodell's major backer among ownership was Kraft. Kraft does not have anything against him and in fact one of the ongoing stories last year if you actually read MMQB was what the commish would do if he had to discipline the patriots. I wonder now if PK knew about the taping incidents.

Two, if anybody thinks that being loyal to a teammate is going to hurt Roddy White come contract time, you DO NOT understand the culture of the NFL. Period.

Three, there is a world of difference between videotaping the field and videotaping the coaches on the sidelines, and I'll just leave it at that.

by dbt (Bears fan) (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 12:27pm

(I should say I wonder now if PK was hinting at the taping incidents, since at least the one involving Green Bay was fairly common knowledge).

by JJcruiser (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 12:37pm

I should not have shot off such a short and unfocused post on such a serious topic, which rightly touched off a nerve or too, but that means now I have to more thoroughly explain my problem with the Vick story.

First of all, I was overzealous in my comments, an (un)warranted reaction to what I perceive as overzealousness in criticizing Mike Vick. So I retract the more incendiary language. Similarly, and obviously, if the exact same thing had been done to people the crime would be far worse. I don't dispute that, and it's somewhat of a red herring to make that point.

Second, NFL players have had run-ins with the law before, in a number of well documented cases I doubt I need to go into detail on, but which includes obstruction of justice in a murder case, vehicular homicide with driving drunk, and assault with a deadly weapon. In each of these more famous instances, there was no where near the anger, disgust, and attention paid to the player as there was to Michael Vick. Two of these three people are still playing and served minimal suspensions (I don't remember Ray Lewis even being suspended at all). The fact that the media was so driven in disgust by the Vick story, and that society was either suppotive or driving it, wouldn't in a vaccum be a bad thing. Except that the same vitriol was disturbingly absent in the other examples.

The common thread and distinction between them was the dogs, not people, were involved.

I know that you all say that if Vick had tortured (though I think that's debatable from the evidence that he tortured anything...killing by electrocution isn't torture, it's just killing) humans, the outcry and the punishment would be worse. As I mentioned above, that's obvious. My point is that the reaction against Vick was driven more by the fact people care more about dogs on an emotional level than they do people.

I'm not saying everyone falls into this category, but I've known several people to say that if a stranger and their dog were drowning and they could only save one, they'd save the dog. The attention the Vick story got and the anger directed at him in the media is a similar reaction, in my opinion.

Just a couple examples: I've repeatedly heard people on ESPN Radio say that Vick's actions are absolutely atrocious, unfathomablly cruel, inexplainablly evil, etc., but very little attention paid to other, worse acts. (Incidentally, kudos to Mike and Mike, who continued to raise the Leonard Little story in counterpoint). SI nominated, though it did not select, people that took over the care of Vick's dogs as "Sportsmen" of the year. As a case in point, the latter article states:

"Say what you will about the misdeeds of Tim Donaghy, Pacman Jones and Isiah Thomas, but those three have nothing on Vick, the admitted dogfighter and puppy killer."

Donaghy fixed basketball games, surely as serious a crime as the gambling aspects of Vick's crimes.
Pacman Jones either shot or was complicit in shooting a human being and paralyzing him.
Isaiah Thomas lost a sexual harrassment case in which he admitted calling a female executive a "B!@#tch" and was reported to call her a "N^&%&%r."

Nothing on Vick? I don't even think these are very good examples of sports figures in trouble with the law, but they certainly have something on Vick.

Where's the outcry for other bad acts? I'm not even sure our most famous criminal, OJ Simpson, has had so much anger directed at him. He's become a joke and a chariciture, but he's not exactly unreservedly reviled. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I hope I am.

But in any event, that's not the point: the point is that he's not as reviled as Vick is in the media, which reflects societal mores, and in this case, presents a good example of why I think Vick was sentenced too much.

Some people grow up thinking hunting is a family tradition and enjoyable pursuit. Some people grow up thinking bull fighting is an honorable, national pastime. Some people grow up thinking dog fighting is, too. Of course it's illegal and for that reason alone people shouldn't do it, but I don't see an enormous difference between killing a deer for sport, killing a bull for entertainment, or watching a dog kill another dog for sport/entertainment. So while I don't do any of these things and find them all distasteful, an additional moral reprehensibility that seems inflamed by public passion in the Vick case, is absent for me from this crime. What we criminalize is supposed to reflect our sense of morality.

To summarize:

It is my impression that society cares more -- at least on an emotional level -- about dogs than it does about people. I think that's what drives this Vick-hate engine, more than the fact he actually committed a crime. I don't care for what he did, but I think the overreaction to it betrays a serious problem with American morals.

Of course I am happy to continue the discourse but I don't want to bury FO in non-NFL issues, so write my personal email if you care to respond (linked to my name).

by Herm? (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 12:56pm

yeah, that was qretty dold.
Since you have no idea what was actually being taped and how it was being used.
Not to single you out, but only 2 people know what was on the Pats tapes. And there has been no review of any other tapes anywhere(Jets included, but league-wide)
Since no one has any idea what was on any tapes, and no one else has ratted any other teams out, no one has any clue as to what advantage is gained from taping.
All it comes down to is that there are fans of 31 other teams that want to knock down a successful team, using the PERCEPTION of cheating as their argument, but have made ZERO valid arguments. They seem to ignore the Fold Card Hootball Hacts that regardless of what you think, the PERCEPTION of an advantage from videotaping hasn't happened in the past 12 3/4 games, and the best team in the history of the DVOA era is better than yours.
I understand people want to knock successful teams down and see theirs win. It's probably in our nature to get tired of Peyton's commercials, Red Sox/Yankees $200 Million Dollar Payrolls, Dallas Cowboys of the 90's, Tiger Woods...What was it like watching Bill Russell practically sweep an entire decade?
But knock it down for what it is - these teams are better than yours and you don't want them to be. Thats where your argument ends. Don't make excuses for it.
I'd just prefer you sat back and accepted it. But then again, I am a Patriots fan...
(And I want to thank everyone for allowing me the opportunity to contribute to ruining this thread. Mr. Schatz, Mr Riley...this one's for you!)

by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 1:34pm

"Three, there is a world of difference between videotaping the field and videotaping the coaches on the sidelines, and I’ll just leave it at that."
First, once again, according to NFL rules no such difference exists: you can't tape from unapproved locations, period. If you are in an approved location (although it's unclear what that may be, and what can be taped from there) you can tape whatever you want.

Second, assuming that the Jets were deriving some sort of competitive advantage from their tapes, even if they were limited only to on-the-field action, why is that competitive advantage any different or inherently less unfair than the advantage the Pats likely derived from taping defensive signals? I can't really see much difference between the two. The only practical distinction may have been if the Jets indeed asked for appropriate permission for their tapings. Whether they actually did is at this point unclear.

by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 1:48pm

"The only practical distinction may have been if the Jets indeed asked for appropriate permission for their tapings. "

The jets asked TEAMS for permission, not the NFL, so by the letter of the rule, they were just as guilty of violating the same rule.

by hwc (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 1:59pm

RE: #113

a) I think the prevailing sentiment of Pats fans is "embrace the hate". The role of NFL bad boy suits the Pats franchise and its fanbase, just fine, thank-you very much.

b) IMO, Goodell's handling of the whole videotape incident was atrocious. First, the penalty (the highest draft pick fine in the history of the NFL and the highest monetary fine in the history of the NFL)was all out of proportion to the ticky-tack nature of the infraction. For example, there is no way that this infraction comes close to the ramifications of systematically cheating the salary cap. Furthermore, Goodell's constant leaks (including leaking the actual confiscated video) to the press throughout the week unnecessarily fanned the incident into an out-of-control fire.

This whole incident should have been handled by the commissioner in a much more low-key way. I think he finally realized that (after the horse was out of the barn) when he destroyed the additional tapes and tried to declare the incident finished. But, Goodell went out of his way to turn it into the NFL equivalent of WWIII. Why? You'd have to ask him.

by Kaveman (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 2:01pm

This probably isn't even worth the effort, but hey. Remember the memo that was circulated by the league to all teams, this last off-season, saying that the no-taping rule would be enforced? Yeah.

by silentdibs (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 2:10pm

If you yell “fire” in a theatre, it doesn’t matter that you didn’t realize how bad the consequences might be.

Except when there's, you know, an actual fire.

by PatsFan (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 2:25pm

Re: #122

Exactly. The Pats did the taping thing a whole three days after the latest league memo telling everyone not to do it came out.

I'm convinced that the main reason for Goodell's harshness was that he was PO'd at Belichick showing him up.

I think the secondary reasons were (a) with Pacman Jones, Tank Johnson, etc. Goodell had adopted the skull-crackin' fire and brimstone enforcer persona and felt he needed to stick with it here, (b) As the new commish, he felt he needed to show he wasn't beholden to/cowed by one of the most powerful owners in the league, especially since Kraft was one of his big supporters for the job.

by Eric P (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 2:26pm

Re 122:
Irrelevant. The league is not taking the position that what the Jets did was ok because it happened before the memo. They are saying it's not a violation of the rules. A literal interpretation (or at least the interpretation the Pats were punished under) of the rule would suggest that it is a violation. Many in the media have derided Belichick for his "misinterpretation" defense, saying the rule is clear cut, with no ambiguity. Apparently it's not that simple.

by Rich Conley (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 2:28pm


Right, which is exactly my point. Also, the Packers have CLEARLY violated the rules this year (bounties) and have not been punished.

by Herm? (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 3:33pm

Again, for those who don't like to read,
this happened in the first game. It is 13 weeks and 12 games later, with ZERO taping: 13-0.
It's been 3 Months, people.
You do not hate the Patriots because of videotape.
You hate them because they are better than your team.
Using DVOA, the likelihood is that they are MUCH better than your team.
And to take it a step further, it's likely the 2007 Patriots are much better than the best group your team has ever put on a field.
Yes, after 13 weeks, my dam has been broken. I am finding it more difficult each week to refrain from ruining threads.
Oh, and Red Sox are World Series Champions...and Celtics have the best record in the NBA. And Matt Damon won some award from People Magazine. And people seem to like that Ellen Pompeo chick from Grey's Anatomy, and that redhead from Desperate Housewives seems to be popular with the kids these days. And I'm sure Jo Jo has some article in one of those Teenybopper magazines somewhere.
So suck it, douchebags.

by Penrose 10,000 (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 5:05pm


by Garwood B. Jones (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 6:31pm

Re # 8, 66, 69

Thank you for playing. Should we, or should we not, take the advice of the GALACTICALLY STUPID?!?

by zlionsfan (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 6:32pm

I think it would be nice if they moved to a comment system where you could vote comments up or down and the text would be displayed lighter or darker to reflect the overall score. (In some threads, I suspect there wouldn't be much you could read.)

I think there are going to be some SEC coaches who are going to have a really good time recruiting against Arkansas next season.

I think Herm Edwards is angling for a job with the NFL Network.

by Cyrus (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 6:56pm

Love the anger Herm?. You are well on your way to the dark side. Embrace the hate!

Just kidding. You are venting exactly how I feel, subjecting myself to football forums as a Patriot fan. It isn't that bad here, but on other forums, it really is like a catfight between high school girls-- everyone hates the Patriots for whatever their reasons are, and they don't have to be logical.

Now, I will say I am very disappointed by the weather this weekend. I agreed to buy tickets to the Pats/Jets game from a friend, not knowing it would be miserable-- I was hoping to see the Jets get their butts kicked hardcore in retribution.

I'll settle for a win and not much wind, at this point.

by DolFan 316 (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 8:21pm

First of all, I love the new bold lettered keywords. Not that I couldn't read the old ones, but the boldness just looks better.

Second, get off the victim act already, Pats and Vick fans. Oh yeah, the Pats are going to get a top 5 pick, they sure are being picked on by the league! Just ask the Ravens if they feel the NFL has it out for the Pats.

Oh, and that poor poor Mike Vick, what a victim he is. I'm sure all those dogs just tortured and raped themselves. I'm sure he just tried his best to prevent it, but all those other meanie dogfighters wouldn't let him. 23 months? He should get 23 YEARS.

Oh, and I don;t have any sympathy for the Falcons either. They've won three whole games for one thing. For another, they went out of their way to be enablers and deserve what they get. If anything I'm JEALOUS of them--I sure as hell wish MY team's coach would leave for a college job! But noooo, Cam The Sham has to be principled and stick it out.

What are people going to complain about next, that they don't have enough money to purchase everything in their local Best Buy?

by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Fri, 12/14/2007 - 11:07pm

DolFan316, don't despair. The Dolphins are apparently for sale, in which case the next owner may well decide to start over without Cam. Assuming, of course, that someone can be found who is willing to buy the Dolphins.

by Packer Pete (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 1:00am

#127: That Packer "bounty" business is a bunch of crap. One of the two "bounties" was that the D backs would pay a small amount of cash if the opposing team was held to less than 60 yards rushing. So the Packers put a bounty on the entire opposing offense? A bounty implies that a single player is being targeted with the intent of injury. That was never the case with the Packers. These were little locker room incentives for statistical results, not for injuring opposing players. Just because every knucklehead sports reporter parrots a phrase without thinking about what he's saying doesn't make it true.

by Purds (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 2:04am

nomonclature #111:

My comment was Pats hatred spewing forth? My, my, you have very, very thin skin. All I am suggesting is that Mangini might not have unilaterally, first decided to stop another team from video taping, as was all the Jets-hatred rage being bantered about (mostly by NE fans) in September. I think it's hypocritical of those who yelled so loudly about Mangini "breaking the code" to not think BB broke the code as well in stopping the Jets, as apparently other teams repeatedly let the Jets tape from the end zones. But then, solely because he wins, everything... not some things, but every thing ... that BB does must be right, according to some.

I don't know if my scenerio is right, and that's why I asked for someone to poke a hole in the logic of it. The only thing close I have heard in terms of logic is that "the team, and not BB, may have ordered the Jets to stop". I can buy that, though the two would likely be seen by Mangini as one and the same.

MJK changes the question (and I see his point -- shouldn't the Jets get in trouble for that taping. Probably should, but their team sucks, so I am not really concerned with any advantage they may have gained over the past 5 years. I wouldn't care if the Dolphins taped, either.)

nomonclature calls me a Pats hater, and says that alone makes anything I say illogical. That's an easy way to dismiss something -- "the messenger doesn't like my team, so he CAN'T be telling the truth."

Both of you put words in my mouth, or ideas in my writing, that are simply not there. I did not say I agreed with Mangini's move to the NFL security. I said if he was pissed by BB's (or NE's) decision to stop him from taping, I am less inclined to blame Mangini for turning BB in. And yes, the fire was burning, to use your metaphor. Mangini didn't call in the NFL and then they found no fire/taping.

(And, a much less likely possibility exists on that front as well, so I hesitate to even hypothesize, but what the heck: what if Mangini told NE to stop, and BB said, as so many like to say of him talking to the league and opponents this year, "F--- You!" and kept taping from his sideline. Then what would Mangini do? Go to the NFL?

This one, I don't believe. What I do believe is that a situation like this would be printed in the Boston Herald if it ended with the punch line: And the Pats won again.)

by thestar5 (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 6:17am

Don't worry Purds. According to them, the NFL is cheating them to a 13-0 record. And the only reason anyone could hate them is because their good. (ANd you better know their good dammit!! Because forget the fact that ESPN hasn't stopped talkin about the Pats for months, no one knows yet!!!!) Protective, much? They sound verrry smart...

"You hate them because they are better than your team.
Using DVOA, the likelihood is that they are MUCH better than your team.
And to take it a step further, it’s likely the 2007 Patriots are much better than the best group your team has ever put on a field."

Well you think you'd at least enjoy the perfect season. You better REAAALLY hope the Pats don't lose in the playoffs because you are setting yourself up for massive embarassment. Ohh and I cant believe how much of this paranoia crap I'm hearing, its like I'm reading FOXSports. You're coach cheated and got caught. Deal with it. Don't try to blame everyone else.

by gnomonclature (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 11:43am

1.I called you a Pats hater based on your complete body of work, not based on one comment. If your repeated anti-Pats rants, which seem to outnumber any positive comments about anything, don't make you a Pats hater, I don't know what does. maybe I should have spelled that out for you.
2.You are the one who asked where your logic failed, so why get your panties in a bunch when someone answers? That sounds suspiciously like thin skin to me.
3. I never said your argument was illogical based on you being a Pats hater. I said that it would "make one take a harder look" at your argument. You should expect skepticism here. If you want blind faith, call any sports talk radio program in the city of your choice.
4. Heed Herm?'s advice.

by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 2:40pm

A bounty implies that a single player is being targeted with the intent of injury.
Not according to actual NFL rules. The rule prohibits bounties " against a particular team, a particular opposing player or players, or a particular group of an opposing team." But interpretation of some rules should be more flexible than others, I guess.

MJK changes the question (and I see his point — shouldn’t the Jets get in trouble for that taping. Probably should, but their team sucks, so I am not really concerned with any advantage they may have gained over the past 5 years. I wouldn’t care if the Dolphins taped, either.)
Interesting outlook on rule application there, Purds. Should we forgive holding, PI and neutral zone infractions from losing teams too?

I actually was very much, and from the beginning, for heavy sanctions against the Pats, with complete transparency and accountability league-wide. What pissed me off, though, is that ultimately the surge of self-righteousness was obviously there to simply cover petty envy and revenge, not just from homer fans, but also in the media and other teams' staff and players.

Purds put it explicitly on paper (or pixels, whatever) in the quote above, but the same spirit transpires pretty much everywhere the topic is discussed.

by Herm? (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 3:27pm

Because I believe in the legitimacy of the previous 3 SB's, I would not be embarrassed. Call it being spoiled or whatever you want.
To be honest, I'm more interested in 16-0 than a Superbowl, because an undefeated regular season is less common than a Superbowl. Someone wins the Superbowl every year.
However, if I were to witness 16-0 AND a Superbowl win, I'd be extremely pleased...and probably insufferable. I know people find Patriots fans in general as insufferable (understatement of the century?), but Trust me, deliberately contributing to this is a new thing to me.

I have to say I AM enjoying the whole thing. 50 years from now, you won't be able to speak to a Boston sports fan without them bringing 2007 into a conversation. What a great time. It really is awesome. Thanks for reminding me, thestar5.

by Purds (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 4:47pm


Of course we shouldn't forgive penalties by losing teams. But, I won't post on FO about them, because I won't care, unless they influence a real game. If the Dolphins beat the Pats because they cheat, I would post about it. If the Colts are proven to have pumped in music, I would care.

gnome: Nice no answer. Again, I will ask in very easy terms and you can load all the anti-Pats conspiracy theories you want into it: how does the logical sequence of events in my original post (#88) NOT work? In what way can you read into that sequence that Mangini was the FIRST to "break the code" that so many NE fans were yammering about, making them, the ones found guilty, the victims?

by Purds (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 4:54pm

And, gnome, if you're going to label me, do it right. I am a "BB hater," not a Patriot hater. Nothing against their good players. If anything, I would argue that BB has effectively prevented me and many other non-Pats fans from admiring their impressive season. Look at other coaches who have won SB's, or won repeatedly in other sports recently, and you won't find anyone who acts as consistently childishly as BB: Dungy, Cowher, Francona, Torre. Each has had his moments, but none have made such an art form of being a 2-year-old like BB.

by slo-mo-joe (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 5:57pm

Of course we shouldn’t forgive penalties by losing teams. But, I won’t post on FO about them, because I won’t care, unless they influence a real game.
So, what real game did the Patriots taping influence?

by Purds (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 7:23pm

"So, what real game did the Patriots taping influence?"

No idea (thanks to Goddell) and won't speculate, but I would consider all Pats games real games, as they are kind of good. But if you don't agree, well, I'll dismiss NE as a real team, I guess.

Or, I can say, "OK, you got me. I should march on NFL headquarters calling for the heads of Mangini and BB, both. Would that satisfy you?"

Anyway, you've moved nicely far from answering my original question, which I'll repeat (again): How does the timeline I set out in post #88 NOT show that BB might have been the first to "break the code" of head coaches, and thus explain Mangini's retribution (remember, he studied under the best of grude-holders)? Or, that Mangini at least thought NE (and by association BB, as not much happens in Foxboro without BB knowing) had broken the code first?

by PatsFan (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 8:12pm

Re: #142

So he doesn't give a Proper Media-Approved Handshake(tm) to a media-fave sanctimonious prig like Dungy and a former assistant who stabbed him in the back (remember, it's not just the taping thing -- Ratgini also recuited players on the flight home from the Denver playoff loss and (allegedly) stole a laptop of proprietary data) and he's a "2 year old"? Bah.

A perfunctory handshake was the most they deserved.

You make SMJ's and gnomon's points for them.

by Purds (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 9:27pm

Re #145:

And, BB still thinks he's being funny/witty/getting-back-at-the-NFL by putting Brady on the injury list each week -- get over it BB.

And, BB still can't talk like a normal human being to the press unless it's about X's and O's.

And, BB redefines the term "running up the score" -- no such thing, nowadays, if you listen to BB and the NE faithful (just 3 years ago the NE faithful were knocking Manning for "padding his TD stats" -- now it's called "playing for 4 quarters").

And, he's the "victim" for breaking Goddell's rules?

And, if we want to go back a few years, BB is the original back-stabber in the NYJ/NE affairs, leaving the Jets in the lurch after signing to be their head coach in a move coordinated by his mentor, and then having all the dignity of a napkin to sign his resignation. Makes Mangini look like an apple that did not fall far from the tree. What did BB think he taught Mangini?

And, I wasn't referring to handshakes with Dungy, but why should anyone get a half-hearted shake? If BB really doesn't like the guy, then he shouldn't shake the guy's hand at all. Be a man about it, not some passive-aggressive child.

And, he pushes photographers in the face because, God forbid, they're trying to do their job.

And, he rips his silly sweatshirts to look like some kind of cool guy from the 80's. (Okay, that last one is gratuitous.)

As a coach, on the field, he's brilliant. No doubt, and no disrespect from me on that point. As a human being, he's a 2-year-old.

by Purds (not verified) :: Sat, 12/15/2007 - 9:35pm

My point is that very few coaches act as childishly so often as BB. None of those others I cited, who clearly have had success, have needed to act like this. Take Francona, as an example. He's been very successful, winning 2 World Series in 4 years, with two almost completely different sets of players with different personalities. Have you ever seen one of his press conferences? I can't think of any fan, of Red Sox Nation, of Yankee fandom, or of any other team, that doesn't respect Francona as a person as much as they do as a coach. BB should hand around Francona to see how adult, successful coaches should handle success and failure.

by old (not verified) :: Sun, 12/16/2007 - 8:45am

Of course I am happy to continue the discourse but I don’t want to bury FO in non-NFL issues, so write my personal email if you care to respond (linked to my name).
:: JJcruiser — 12/14/2007 @ 10:37 am

How big of you.

Vick is an idiot, and was an idiot in how he handled the entire situation. Vick gets the press because he is a bigger name. Maybe your memory is short but I remember plenty of press about Ray Lewis, and I live in Morgantown, so I get plenty of press about Pacman Jones. Nobody forgot the Jones story and there were stories whenever anything happened in the case. The last story I got was that Jones pled out. For you to write that Vick got a harsh punishment when the judge could have sentenced him to five years, is ridiculous. See there are minimum sentences, and maximum sentences, and Vick fell inbetween. The Ray Lewis story is years old and of course no one is writing about it anymore. Now, if somehow new evidence came to light and they re-tried Lewis there would be plenty of stories about that.

Sorry, I couldn't be bothered to e-mail that to you in your great save the wasted pixels and unrelated content in a football forum campaign.

by Mikey Benny (not verified) :: Sun, 12/16/2007 - 1:07pm

148: Re: Mike Vick... Congratulations on COMPLETELY missing JJCrusier's point. There was not nearly the outrage or venom directed at Pacman Jones, or Ray Lewis, or Leonard Little, or O.J. Simpson, or Rae Carruth, or Mike Tyson (rape), or Kobe Bryant (rape allegations) as there were towards Michael Vick. To me, that shows how out of whack the media's and our society's perspective is. Bravo on your second post, JJ... your first one was a bit iffy, but your second one was spot on.

by Yaguar (not verified) :: Sun, 12/16/2007 - 10:18pm

118: Society doesn't care more emotionally about dogs than it cares about people. It cares more about Michael Vick than it cares about Leonard Little.

by mactbone (not verified) :: Mon, 12/17/2007 - 12:08pm

Hahahaaha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. This is rich:
NFL spokesman Greg Aiello agreed with Mangini, telling The Post that shooting from both end zones is common and within league rules.

“There are no restrictions on shooting from both upper end zone positions as long as the opportunity is provided to both teams," Aiello said in an e-mail. “No permission is needed from the league office."

Link to the article in my name.

by Sid (not verified) :: Thu, 12/20/2007 - 1:48am

Good to see that this thread, like many others, ended up being taken over by Patriots fanboys.