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Week 7 Open Game Discussion

Unless you're a David Johnson fantasy owner, the Broncos-Cardinals Thursday night game looks like a snoozer, but eight games on Sunday pit two teams at .500 or better against each other: Titans-Chargers, Patriots-Bears, Texans-Jaguars, Vikings-Jets, Panthers-Eagles, Cowboys-Washington, Bengals-Chiefs, and maybe the biggest game of the week, New Orleans traveling to Baltimore to take on the Ravens. Use this thread to discuss them all.

Comments

256 comments, Last at 22 Oct 2018, 9:05am

1 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 18, 2018 - 8:12pm

First (and likely only) opportunity to see Josh Rosen in action this year. Wonder how he'll respond to a national game?

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2 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by vrao81 // Oct 18, 2018 - 8:27pm

Uh...he's not responding well...total disaster on his first pass.

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9 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:02pm

Yuck. That second INT is way worse.

Or, if I may quote Mr. Aikman: "not good".

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12 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:08pm

Okay, on replay, Aikman may be partially right in assigning blame here to a receiver who stopped his route.

On the other hand, what Aikman failed to point out is that receiver was double covered, and I'm not even sure he could have completed the route without teleporting through the defender in front of him. Maybe try and draw a defensive foul (close to being inside of 5 yards, though).

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254 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Theo // Oct 22, 2018 - 8:47am

3rd and short and he went to the covered slant, the out route underneath was open. He didn't read it at all.

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3 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 18, 2018 - 8:30pm

By getting his first pass tip drilled for six. I always wonder who it is to blame for tipped passes at the line. The O-Line or the QB?

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5 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 18, 2018 - 8:31pm

Also, who was responsible for the Cardinals not knowing what play they were running on second down of the first series. Don't most professional football teams plot that out pre game?

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55 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by jtr // Oct 19, 2018 - 8:38am

I think it's mostly on the line. If the lineman engages his defender well, the guy can't really tip a pass--if you're getting shoved in the chest by a 300-pound man, you naturally get your hands down to defend yourself. Sometimes a QB can contribute too though. I remember some Eagles QB--Kevin Kolb maybe?--getting a lot of passes tipped a few years ago. He had a tendency to pat the ball with his offhand right before he threw it, which tipped off defenders to get their hands in the air.

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4 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 18, 2018 - 8:30pm

Well, at least I now know how Aikman will respond to a national audience.

He just analyzed the Cardinals' first series as "not good".

I mean, he's not wrong. I'm just glad he was there to point that out to me.

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7 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 18, 2018 - 8:47pm

Hmmm ... where was everyone that was supposed to cover deep on that play? I guess Lindsay is that much of a threat that made everyone rush the LOS and ignore Sutton?

EDIT: Did not notice it was an End Around Pass from Sanders. I though it was a PA play. The End Around sells it more. Also, the announcers here called it a "Reverse"

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8 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:01pm

At this point, every hand off to a WR is a "reverse".

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51 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Oct 19, 2018 - 8:16am

Sometimes a "double reverse"

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6 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 18, 2018 - 8:46pm

The Cardinals uni/helmet combo looks straight out of an 8-bit video game.

Do Bronco fans outnumber Cardinal fans at the stadium? Sure looks that way on tv.

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10 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:03pm

Yeah ... this is a blowout. 2 pick sixes on less than a quarter is Nathan Peterman worthy, not Josh Rosen worthy. The did receiver not go to the middle of the field? Or did Rosen made a bad pass?

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47 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by JoeyHarringtonsPiano // Oct 19, 2018 - 5:45am

We’ve already named >40 attempts with <200 yards the “Osweiler”. I propose that we name two pick-sixes in the same game the “Peterman”.

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52 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Oct 19, 2018 - 8:17am

The Peterman is two INTs in two passes.

Eli had a Peterman against Carolina.

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56 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 19, 2018 - 9:25am

Brilliant! I can't wait for the FO article analyzing which QB has thrown the most Petermans over their career.

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63 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Sixknots // Oct 19, 2018 - 12:10pm

OK, wait...we now have the "Osweiler" and the "Peterman". What was the "Bortles"? Someone refresh my memory.

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64 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by jtr // Oct 19, 2018 - 12:29pm

I don't know that anyone set a firm statistical benchmark for it, but it meant playing terribly for most of the game, then playing well enough with your team losing by a million to salvage a respectable statline.

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71 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 19, 2018 - 5:16pm

Even Bortles hasn't really been Bortl'ing this year. By memory, I believe he's either played well, or consistently lousy, for the full game.

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11 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by xydux // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:03pm

The Broncos are winning on pick-sixes and trick plays. I'm happy about this, and probably will be until six months later, when the Broncos record will have dropped them out of the top 5 and they just miss finding a QB.

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18 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:15pm

I don't know that they would've been a contender for a top 5 pick. DVOA has them as an above average team, so being stuck in the mediocrity of the 7-9, 8-8 area was and is more likely. Actually, if they had held onto that lead against the Chiefs a few weeks ago they could be in position to pull within a half game here while also holding the tiebreaker.

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21 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by xydux // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:23pm

I suspect that a fair bit of that is that Mile High is tough to play in September; everyone's still rounding into shape, it's hot, and the altitude kills opponents in the 4th quarter. Winning a couple of games there is par for the course.

Also the fact that the Broncos run defense has seemingly gone to complete suck has an impact on my perception.

Also, I'm a pessimist.

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13 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by xydux // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:12pm

2 things.

Sanders, why the flip are you doing a flip into the end zone? You could get hurt doing that ship!

Sanders, HOW DID YOU GET SO FLIPPING WIDE OPEN?

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15 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by deus01 // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:14pm

He basically stopped to catch that ball and still somehow made it into the end zone

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16 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:14pm

That "coverage" by the Arizona defence was way uglier than Rosen's two INTs.

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17 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:15pm

The Deep Safety turned into Mike Mitchell, and forgot that his job was not letting anyone get behind him.

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24 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by vrao81 // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:46pm

I thought that was Rahim Moore? Or is that when he looks back to the sky when the ball is already in the receiver's hands?

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14 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:13pm

If the Arizona defensive plan is "Allow Emmanuel Sanders to run free deep downfield", then they have succeded. What was the Safety doing?

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19 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:17pm

*facepalms* How is that you run over the punt returner WAAAAY before the punt even started the fall down? Also, the returner got hurt.

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22 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by xydux // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:26pm

I thought he tripped while trying to stop and rolled into the returner. Not a good play by any means, but more excusable as a mistake than him intentionally knocking the returner down.

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20 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:18pm

Are the Cardinals really an NFL team? They don't look like they've ever played football before. This might be the worst performance I've ever seen.

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23 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:28pm

My answer to this would usually be "Read: The Buffalo Bills", but considering how the Cards are playing right now ... not sure who is worst.

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25 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by vrao81 // Oct 18, 2018 - 9:48pm

Unbelievable that the cards actually won a game
....On the road if you can believe that! How bad are the 49ers?

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27 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 18, 2018 - 10:01pm

No way the Cardinals were this bad in previous games this year. Couldn't have been.

Is it the short week? nationally televised game? random luck? Don't know.

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28 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by deus01 // Oct 18, 2018 - 10:09pm

Obviously DVOA is wrong and Denver is just the most dominant team in the league starting from this week.

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33 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 18, 2018 - 10:38pm

I assume it's the short week multiplied by an inexperienced/possibly bad coaching staff. Vance Joseph, on the other hand, has got experience. Wilks hasn't even scapegoated a coordinator yet!

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41 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 18, 2018 - 11:26pm

The coordinator scapegoating will happen on Saturday. Although I'm not sure it's true scapegoating considering the justifiable performance based reasons for a change sooner rather than later.

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72 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 19, 2018 - 5:23pm

Or Friday, as it turns out.

Silly me for assuming the Cardinals would want to take some time and evaluate their options the way a professional organization would.

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92 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Chuckc // Oct 21, 2018 - 10:23am

It makes you wonder what they expected. Hiring an OC and firing him after only 6 games makes me think their hiring process is very flawed.

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49 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by JoeyHarringtonsPiano // Oct 19, 2018 - 5:50am

Interestingly, the 49ers, even with Beathard, have mostly looked reasonable in their other games (they came very close to beating the Chargers on the road (well, I guess that doesn’t really count as a road game), and we all saw them blow a lead in Lambeau on Monday night. Against the Cardinals, the 49ers had a Vikings vs Bills-level meltdown and turned the ball over on every other possession. The ‘76 Buccaneers would have beaten the Niners that day.

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26 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by MarkV // Oct 18, 2018 - 10:00pm

Their pass-rush has looked reasonable.

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48 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by JoeyHarringtonsPiano // Oct 19, 2018 - 5:46am

I knew we were in for a long night when their kick returner kept eschewing touchbacks in favor of returning kicks to the 15 yard line.

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57 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 19, 2018 - 9:30am

I'm going to give the kickoff returners a pass on that and assume they knew full well their offense wasn't scoring with normal field positions. 25, 15, whatever. Better to gamble on a long return and the possibility of points.

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58 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by JoeyHarringtonsPiano // Oct 19, 2018 - 9:53am

Well most of the football world saw this coming, though. They almost fooled us by playing the Bears and Seahawks tough, and beating the 49ers. Pretty much the only people who are surprised the Cardinals are bad are...the Cardinals organization.

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76 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by El Muneco // Oct 19, 2018 - 11:43pm

It's that stadium. Nothing good can happen to the Seahawks there. You could dress Bethune-Cookman in Cardinals uniforms, and they'd not only cover the spread, someone in last year's "Top 100" would get injured for at least four games.

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29 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by ChrisS // Oct 18, 2018 - 10:16pm

On the defensive pass interference just before the end of the half, the DB had his hand grabbing inside the neckline of the jersey pulling down on the uniform and making the receivers neck hole about 50% bigger. Mike Perara's comment "that's a good call". Is it his job to make Aikman appear insightful?

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31 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by xydux // Oct 18, 2018 - 10:30pm

In defense of both of these guys:

Their audience ranges from people who are incredibly well informed about the game–for example, I wouldn't be shocked if Peyton Manning still enjoys watching football–to people who are watching the game for the first time, people who aren't interested in football and watching with their significant others, and people who just aren't that smart. Therefore, they have to make sure that the latter group has a decent idea of what's going on. So Mike P. pointing out that it was a good call–there are probably people in the audience who don't realize when it goes from legal to illegal. Sure, it's obvious, but they're probably betting that there are people who won't get that, and they need to make it perfectly clear.

Then again, I watch with the sound off, so my insight into this is dubious at best.

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32 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 18, 2018 - 10:36pm

That's a good point. I've often wondered why the play-by-play guys don't ask more "lob ball" questions for the color guys on basic football events during a broadcast. That gives the expert a chance to both explain the core rules and subtleties as appropriate, satisfying both audiences.

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34 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by deus01 // Oct 18, 2018 - 10:42pm

I get what you're saying and it's a good point but I still think commentators do a bad job of explaining things to either audience. For example, they use a lot of football terms to talk about certain types of plays or routes without explaining what those mean and often actually getting them wrong anyway (e.g. reverse vs end around).

I think this why Romo is the only commentator actually worth anything. He does a good job providing insight that's useful to people to have a deep knowledge of the game but he also uses mostly plain language so people who are less familiar with football can also benefit from his description.

Aikman and Buck just blather on about pointless crap, don't give any useful insight, still use plenty of football jargon and still get use that jargon incorrectly. It's the worst of both worlds.

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36 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 18, 2018 - 11:01pm

I was going to say the same thing, glad I refreshed first and saw you'd taken care of it.

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37 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by deus01 // Oct 18, 2018 - 11:07pm

Hah. I mean I guess with the way games are split across networks and only shown in certain areas there's no real competitive pressure to have better commentators. Either that or the average fan is just stupid/doesn't care which to be honest wouldn't surprise me either.

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40 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 18, 2018 - 11:25pm

As recently as three years ago, Cris Collinsworth was excellent. I don't know why he fell off so hard, but around that time there was a big stupid controversy where Broncos fans thought he was rooting against them in the booth for some reason I never understood. I met tons of people around that time who told me versions of "oh I don't like Collinsworth because of the Broncos" or some such. Did NBC tell him to never say anything except bubble-gum saccharine? Will CBS similarly ruin Romo? Can Romo even be ruined, if all those years in Dallas didn't already?

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42 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 18, 2018 - 11:29pm

Collingsworth is fine when he talks football. When he talks anything else is when you realize he's a jerk.

Collingsworth's biggest issue is he's teamed with Michaels, who'd rather talk about anything other than today's football game. Retire already, Al.

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43 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by deus01 // Oct 18, 2018 - 11:38pm

I don't like Collinsworth just because he seems to buy in to Brady's bullshit training regimen as to why that makes him so good.

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44 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 18, 2018 - 11:47pm

This isn't a good look either. "Jerk" is probably right: https://youtu.be/WC8Elk1LRjs

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61 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by sbond101 // Oct 19, 2018 - 11:22am

Is this really going to be a thing - were going to explain that a commentator is a Jerk because he said something stupid in the media when he was prompted to say something when he was in his 20's 20+ years ago.

I think Collinsworth has declined in his role principally because he understands the run game and the traditional "pro-set" offense much better than he understands how option plays are being used to strain the DL & LB position. You can notice this if you watch him in a few consecutive games with different teams playing - he's much more interesting when he watches a 2000's style pro offense operate than he is watching the current-incarnation eagles. It's probably fair to say that he and Al Michaels were having more fun in 2014 than they are today in the booth, but is that really the main reason for the decline?

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53 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Oct 19, 2018 - 8:20am

That's a good point. Romo offers both educated analysis of what has/is about to happen, but also then explains both what he saw and why it was important.

Madden used to do that sort of thing for line play.

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79 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jerry // Oct 20, 2018 - 3:35am

The first time Madden explained line play with all the "Boom!"s and "Look at the muds," it was great. By the 159th time, it lost something. When Phil Simms moved to the booth, he was held in the same kind of regard as Romo is now. Familiarity breeds contempt, and the top guys are all overexposed.

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30 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 18, 2018 - 10:27pm

Watching DBs trying to catch interceptions and failing, even when the ball lands right in their hands, is a good reminder that what receivers do is actually a lot harder than it seems most of the time.

Also, Aikman just said "Rosen, good drive" after a TD drive in which Denver DBs dropped two such possible interceptions.

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35 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by justanothersteve // Oct 18, 2018 - 10:43pm

I just tuned in at halftime. Just saw Josh Rosen luckily avoid a sack-fumble only to scramble-fumble a few plays later. I'm hoping this game will go down as a lesson for Rosen. I really had high hopes for him coming to the NFL.

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39 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by vrao81 // Oct 18, 2018 - 11:19pm

It seems like every time I look up at the TV Rosen is losing the football.

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38 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by deus01 // Oct 18, 2018 - 11:11pm

Miller is just a monster.

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45 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Vincent Verhei // Oct 19, 2018 - 4:46am

... how the hell did we get 44 comments after THAT game?!

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46 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by JoeyHarringtonsPiano // Oct 19, 2018 - 5:43am

Train wrecks are interesting.

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50 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by coboney // Oct 19, 2018 - 8:02am

Could you look away from the meltdown? I couldn't. It was kind of amazing to watch.

Also sad to watch as a 49ers fan who's team lost to the Cardinals.

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59 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by JoeyHarringtonsPiano // Oct 19, 2018 - 9:54am

I feel your pain. I'm a Lions fan who saw them get curb-stomped on national television by the Jets....only to have salt rubbed in the wound by seeing the Jets bumble through the next three weeks.

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60 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by ChrisS // Oct 19, 2018 - 11:09am

Because commenting was more interesting than the game?

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54 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Oct 19, 2018 - 8:22am

Why did the Cardinals trade Rosen for Peterman?

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62 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Oct 19, 2018 - 12:07pm

Incidentally, is Tom Tupa the best QB drafted and developed by the Cardinals?

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66 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 19, 2018 - 12:49pm

Jake Plummer?

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67 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by JoeyHarringtonsPiano // Oct 19, 2018 - 12:55pm

Plummer salvaged a decent career when he went to Denver, but he was mostly awful during his time with the Cardinals (mostly not his fault... you could argue he was in an Archie Manning-type situation).

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69 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by JoeyHarringtonsPiano // Oct 19, 2018 - 1:05pm

Best QB/P, definitely yes. As far as pure QB, Jim Hart and Neil Lomax made six pro bowls between them back before the Cards left St. Louis. Since the move to Arizona...yea, it's been pretty ugly, with a crew of Timm Rosenbachs and Jake the Snakes. They also spent high/mid-round picks on something named Joe Sacca and Stoney Case. We all remember Matt Leinart, of course.

One thing they are good at is resurrecting the dead careers of aging veterans (Warner, Palmer). I look forward to Derek Carr, Andrew Luck, or Marcus Mariota having an all-Pro season and leading the Cardinals deep into the playoffs in 2027.

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77 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by El Muneco // Oct 19, 2018 - 11:47pm

I thought about Hart, as well - then I looked him up. He was a UDFA, which is pretty amazing considering how many rounds there were in 1966.

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81 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by JoeyHarringtonsPiano // Oct 20, 2018 - 6:33am

Didn’t realize that. Wow, weren’t there like 12 rounds back then? I guess there’s little difference in quality between a 10th round pick and UDFA.

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65 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 19, 2018 - 12:44pm

So now the Cardinals have fired their offensive coordinator, Mike McCoy. What's interesting to me is that the new guy will apparently be Byron Leftwich. At age 38 there are still plenty of Leftwich's QB contemporaries in the league and starting. Would be funny if one of them was playing for the Cardinals instead of a rookie and Leftwich was coaching a guy he used to compete against.

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68 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 19, 2018 - 12:58pm

Byron Leftwich then? Generally, journeyman players tend to be better coaches than superstars because they tend to go around the league a whole lot and learn more systems than if they just stayed with one team (Compare Joey Porter to ... I'd say Mike Vrabel). So ... let's see how that turns out. He can't possibly ruin the Cards offense even more.

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70 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by leviramsey // Oct 19, 2018 - 2:33pm

That's true in just about every sport isn't it.

I'd put it as a combination of the journeyman being exposed to more with:

  • Spending more time on the bench and seeing more coaching/managing up close
  • Not relying on natural talent but having to learn, which makes them better teachers
  • (Related to the first) Keeping playing jobs by being perceived by coaches as the guy who never leaves the facility or stops watching film.

Jeff George was journeyman (7 teams in 14? seasons), but nobody's beating down his door to hire him as a coach.

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78 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mr Shush // Oct 20, 2018 - 1:13am

A counterpoint: Josep Guardiola, generally regarded as the best coach in soccer, was an outstanding player who spent essentially his whole career with one team. If Halls of Fame were a thing in the same way, he might miss out (based on his playing career - he'd be first ballot as a coach), but only because he missed a lot of time with injuries. Steve Smith might be a reasonable comparison. And going further back, all-time top 10 players like Cruyff and Beckenbauer had very successful coaching careers. I think it might just be that there are a lot more journeymen than stars, so of course more of them succeed as coaches.

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85 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 20, 2018 - 3:31pm

OTOH, being in one system your whole career means you probably *really* know that system--for every Doug Pederson there's a Gary Kubiak.

I don't think being a journeyman (or not) is nearly as important as not playing very much, meaning not taking many hits to the head.

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232 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Hummingbird Cyborg // Oct 21, 2018 - 7:45pm

Fewer players are stars than backups and stars are more likely to have other options. Maybe they have the same success rate, but the numbers favor backups and poor players.

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228 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by gomer_rs // Oct 21, 2018 - 7:01pm

There was once a study done on Olympic Archers that showed they could predict who would win the gold medal by how little brain activity they had going on as they took their shot. Less brain activity - more succesful archer. Likewise, when the Seattle Mariners tried to have Ken Griffey Jr. help with teaching younger players how to hit it didn't work because his advice was basically "see the ball, make contact, then it will go really far." Thinking about what and how they are doing it makes athletes demostrably worse at what they are doing.

To the extent that mediocre to bad players have to think about the mechanics of what they are doing to succeed or compete, and possibly how to train themselves to succeed and compete, I would almost never hire a great athlete to coach the position they were good at.
_______

I remember when they were the Sea-chickens.

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250 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by jtr // Oct 22, 2018 - 8:12am

I have a family member who makes his living in youth baseball instruction, and Ken Griffey Jr is INFAMOUS for terrible hitting advice. He's got some training equipment and techniques available on the market and they're all terrible. One of his big things is to "swing down on the ball", which I guess is how he thinks about it, but it's the last thing you want to tell somebody who's learning to swing a bat--you end up with kids chopping the ball straight down onto homeplate. There are definitely a lot of athletes who just have an intuitive ability to perform and really can't teach.

That said, I don't think there's any fundamental reason an elite athlete couldn't be a good teacher. In the current NFL for instance, I bet Joey Bosa, with his precise technique and large array of rush moves, would make for a very good tutor to a developing defensive end. On the other hand, Khalil Mack would probably make for a lousy position coach, since his game is largely built on being stronger, faster, and meaner than the other guy, and that isn't really anything that can be taught.

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255 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by RobotBoy // Oct 22, 2018 - 8:56am

J.D. Martinez is the perfect baseball example. Apparently, he taught the entire Red Sox roster to hit the ball in the air.

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256 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Oct 22, 2018 - 9:05am

Martinez broke out apparently after watching Miguel Cabrera’s approach and copying it.

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73 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by herewegobrowniesherewego // Oct 19, 2018 - 7:05pm

Browns trade Carlos Hyde for JAX 5th rounder.

Thoughts?

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74 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by mathesond // Oct 19, 2018 - 7:24pm

Great, and I just dropped Chubb this week.

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86 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 20, 2018 - 3:53pm

Great, I have Chubb in LL…

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75 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 19, 2018 - 7:36pm

The Browns can now use Nick Chubb and Duke Johnson to their full capabilities. The Jags ... pretty much confirmed that Leonard Fournette is going to be out for a while.

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80 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by JoeyHarringtonsPiano // Oct 20, 2018 - 6:28am

Jacksonville really needed to trade for a quarterback, not a running back.

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82 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by BJR // Oct 20, 2018 - 8:45am

Jacksonville continues to hurl resources at the running back position, in spite of it producing no tangible results. Hyde had a good year in 2016 in Chip Kelly's system, but has been barely above replacement level the rest of his time in the league. I have to believe an equal player to Hyde could not have been acquired for nothing.

Fournette is shaping up to be an epic bust, and providing further proof of why it is unwise to spend significant draft capital on running backs: they get injured a lot.

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83 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by JoeyHarringtonsPiano // Oct 20, 2018 - 9:28am

Even if they don’t get injured, picking a running back in the top 10 puts a lot of pressure on your offensive coordinator to run his offense through that running back, which: A)Not a great idea in today’s NFL (unless the RB turns out to be A. Peterson or L. Tomlinson level talent) and B)May not match up to personnel and/or favorable matchups in a particular game. Even if he runs his normal offense, you get the fans and media grousing about “not enough touches” for the higly-drafted RB.

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84 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by jtr // Oct 20, 2018 - 10:01am

>I have to believe an equal player to Hyde could not have been acquired for nothing.

A fifth round pick is pretty close to nothing. I'd say that if Jacksonville has some reason to particularly like Hyde (ie scheme fit), that's worth a fifth rounder right there. Once you're in the late rounds, you're just throwing darts anyways. What are the odds that that fifth rounder even turns into a player as good as Hyde?

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87 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by mehllageman56 // Oct 20, 2018 - 5:47pm

Probably better than 1 in 32. Took a look at the 2016 fifth round, and look, there's Tyreek Hill. Also Jordan Howard. A couple of other starters (I only know Brandon Shell is a starter because I'm a Jets fan), so right there it looks like 1 in 8 chance. Better than the regular lottery.

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91 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 1:01am

Sounds pretty typical. From 2015 I count six starters/major contributors (that I recognize*) in the 5th round, six in 2014, five in 2013, with an occasional bona fide star thrown in (Jay Ajayi, Stefon Diggs, Chris Thompson).

That all sounds good, but if you can get a known quantity for the pick and you believe his skills fit your system, that's still a worthwhile trade to make. I think the surety of getting a contributor would easily outweigh the small chance of landing a Hill or Diggs in most circumstances.

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88 Highly likely no Gronk vs CHI

by PatsFan // Oct 20, 2018 - 6:43pm

Gronk was not on the team flight to Chicago. Reports say it is because of a late-occurring back injury.

He hasn’t officially been ruled out but it’s “highly unlikely” he will play.

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89 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Rocco // Oct 20, 2018 - 7:34pm

Vontaze Burfict fined $112k for general dirtiness. If it had happened on a prime time game he'd have gotten suspended.

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90 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 20, 2018 - 11:34pm

(Warning, Steelers biased opinion coming up) For one, at least they did something (However). On the other hand, his only objective on the field seems to injure other players. What will it take for the league to actually suspend the guy? Him sending a QB to IR? For a league that supposedly cares about player safety, allowing a guy that deliberately injures other players seems pretty stupid (Then again ... it's the NFL. It's still frustrating). Hell, not even his own teammates know what the hell he's doing.

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93 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 21, 2018 - 12:30pm

I would've liked the Titans to run the ball on that fourth down play inside the 1 and again on the second two-point conversion attempt from the 1. They had a pretty strong running game and it's one yard or less in both cases, even a weak running game is likely to pick it up.

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97 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 1:42pm

I still wonder why a) They didn't go for one (There was enough time for Rivers to drive downfield, plus the Chargers had 2 times outs. Then again, LAC's kicker luck is bad) and b) didn't run it. Why not just running a QB Draw? QB Sneak? Handoff to Derrick Henry?

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101 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 1:54pm

I think your parenthetical explained why they didn't go for one. Rivers had a good enough shot of getting the Chargers downfield, and then even if he didn't, OT is a 50/50 proposition.

But yeah, the play calls were bad in my opinion. I did not like going with an empty backfield from the one yard line.

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94 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by joe football // Oct 21, 2018 - 12:42pm

It's time for another season of FO gameday chat! Join a star-studded cast of your favorite FO posters as we say smart, analytic and totally backed by data things about the football games...in real time!

Unlike Jon Gruden, FO gameday chat isn't beholden to old ways of doing things so we've migrated from slack to discord the season. Among other advantages, it makes it really easy to join, just click the discord invite link: https://discord.gg/brXG8c

Please note that it'll probably take a few minutes for one of our admins to matriculate you into the chat

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95 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 1:29pm

Crazy play in Philly! Eric Reid on a blitz tackles Wentz after a handoff (could have been a play fake!), Ertz takes exception even though it wasn't a particularly hard tackle, and tries to retaliate but Reid sees him coming and suplexes him! Both get flagged for it, but I have to say that's Reid 2, Eagles 0 on that play

I think that's what a suplex is, I'm not a wrestling fan

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96 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 21, 2018 - 1:34pm

So if the Lions win today against the Dolphins they would be 3-0 against teams with winning records... And 0-3 against teams at .500 or below. Weird.

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102 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Steve in WI // Oct 21, 2018 - 1:54pm

Isn’t that basically standard for the Lions with Stafford? I feel like he has won a shockingly low number of games against winning teams.

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111 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:07pm

You mean shockingly high? Because the point of my post was the Lions could be 3-0 against winning teams, which is obviously a lot for a team with only three total wins.

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113 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by mehllageman56 // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:11pm

Although if the Jets beat the Vikings, it ruins that stat.

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133 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Steve in WI // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:40pm

Whoops...yeah, I totally misread that.

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98 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by mathesond // Oct 21, 2018 - 1:44pm

Trubisky looks like he might be a fun one to watch.

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104 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by NRG // Oct 21, 2018 - 1:57pm

Good player, but has been repeatedly high over the middle. You only get to do that so many times before it bites you.

NRG

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123 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by ChrisS // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:30pm

Unless you like watching good passes, 4 of 15 for 43 yards and many dropped interceptions. I don't know why the Bears are trying to pass Patriots can't stop the run or scramble.

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136 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by dank067 // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:44pm

You can't fully judge watching live, but it seems like while Trubisky can make some nice, accurate throws to his first read or two within the timing and structure of the play, he starts to spray the ball if he has to hold on and work through his progressions and find receivers. Interesting because it's at odds with the fact that he's very good at shaking defenders in the backfield and scrambling. Anyway, Belichick and the Patriots didn't give him many easy throws in the first half there.

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99 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by mathesond // Oct 21, 2018 - 1:49pm

Sorry, double post.

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100 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 1:53pm

NE fumbles a kickoff return and Trubinsky turns a 3rd down sack into a TD run on a great scramble.

Then NE's rookie RB loses a fumble on a play that looks like it might put him on IR, and Chicago has a chance to stake a big H1 lead.

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109 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:04pm

Trubinsky throws the ball directly to NE's LB Roberts, who drops it like he's been handed a live ferret.

One play later Chicago's got a 10 point lead.

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110 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:06pm

A lead that lasts one play as Paterson atones for his fumble with a KO return for a touchdown. EDIT: Well, they still have the lead, but it's down to 3 points now.

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103 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Steve in WI // Oct 21, 2018 - 1:57pm

This Bears game is crazy. Watching the Pats first drive it looked like it was going to be a long day for the defense, but forcing two fumbles helps a lot. Trubisky looks great on one play and not so good on the next, but that scramble for the TD was incredible. One of those plays where I’m watching it saying “oh shit, oh shit, oh shit...YES!”

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105 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cheesehead_Canuck // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:01pm

So unusual to see the Pats D getting all the crucial flags and not the D the Pats are playing against.
For once.

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106 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:02pm

Chase Daniels sighting! At WR, as a decoy…

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108 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:04pm

The Bears have been bringing Daniel in for goal line plays, usually lined up next to Trubisky and calling for the snap. It resulted in a TD against Tampa Bay.

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117 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:14pm

Pretty sure lining my Grandmother up in the backfield would result in a TD against Tampa.

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107 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:03pm

A team that falls three games below .500 is usually not going to ever get back in playoff contention. If they do, it will probably take all season for them to get there. But if this 13-0 lead holds up it will have taken just four games for the Texans to rally all the way back to being in sole possession of first in their division. They aren't even at the halfway point of their season.

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112 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:11pm

On the other hand, 4 game winning streaks are likely highly correlated to playoff appearances.

Especially if you play in the AFC South.

Bit early to count the W, yet, though. Not even through H1.

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114 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:11pm

Ah, THERE'S the New England homer call. WTF was that? The defense was CURRENTLY OFFSIDES but they call false start? Insane.

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115 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:12pm

They were drawn offsides. I'm a Bears fan, there's no NE bias there.

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116 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:12pm

They're in Chicago. And they weren't offsides until after the Bears OL moved.

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145 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:50pm

I guess we'll never know because the coverage of the game has been amateur-level, but that's not what I saw

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238 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by justanothersteve // Oct 21, 2018 - 9:33pm

I didn't see this game. But if CURRENTLY OFFSIDES means they were lined up offsides (or even moving offsides but not trying to draw someone offsides), the defense has until the snap to get onsides.

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239 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 9:37pm

What I saw was the defense offsides at the moment the ball was snapped

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118 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:22pm

how is that Josh Gordon play a "catch" through the ground? he didn't stand up with it under control.
(see Johnson, Calvin)

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119 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:24pm

You don't have to get up if you're in possession of the ball and down by contact.

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121 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:27pm

that statement is 100% at odds with how numerous calls have been made in the last 10 years, and a lot even this year.

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122 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:28pm

The key there is "full possession". If you lose control of the ball, it's not a catch. Regardless of if you get up or not.

Gordon never lost control until well after he was down. There is nothing remotely controversial about that catch.

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125 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:32pm

"If the receiver is in the process of going to the ground, they will have to maintain control of the football while on the turf for the catch to be ruled as complete."
https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/20/nfl-new-catch-rule-definition-changes

did he maintain control of the football while *on* the turf?

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128 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:36pm

Yes. Then the refs blew the whistle. Then he gave the refs the ball.

Are you just trolling at this point?

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130 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:38pm

no, Im pointing out that the rule is either ambiguously written or poorly interpreted.
it certainly is not called consistently.

sorry that it hurts your feelings.

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132 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:39pm

Considering you are the only person who is confused, I wouldn't say they are poorly written.

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135 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:41pm

where in the rule is it defined how long he has to maintain possession on the turf to determine it is appropriate to whistle?

thousand-one?
thousand-two?

make it up as we go depending on what team it is ?

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139 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:45pm

If your point is that "control" is not well-defined... OK. I'm not going to argue with that.

But this Gordon play is not even notable. He had full control by any definition - never bobbled it at all. If it was a questionable catch, that 95% of all catches are questionable. You've picked an odd example to rail against the way the catch rule is written.

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142 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:48pm

"He had full control by any definition"

how could he establish control on the ground? his helmet was off prior to any possibility of that. so he was going to the ground, then he is ineligible to complete the play when his helemt comes off.

he literally cannot establish control through the ground.

if he had not been touched, this would have to be ruled incomplete?

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144 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:49pm

No. He caught the ball while in the air.

He therefore needs to not lose control when he hits the ground. He did not lose control when he hit the ground. Can you point out where he lost control? If not, it's a catch.

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148 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:52pm

how can he control it through the groudn when he isn't an eligible player anymore ?
he lost control when his helmet came off because he was out of the play.

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149 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:53pm

That is not how the rule is interpreted. Notice the helmet rule does not say "you cannot control the ball if your helmet comes off".

If a RB is carrying the ball and his helmet comes off without him going to the ground, would you call that a fumble?

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152 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:57pm

no, I'd say his forward progress is stopped at that exact moment and the ball is dead where it was - because as a runner , he is in control of the ball by default

Gordon had not established control as he was a diving/fallign receiver. the end point of his establishing control is being through the ground. he was not through the ground when his helmet came off. in fact his facemask was the first part of him to touch the ground other than his toes. and it came off instantly *before* any other body part. *before* his elbow/arm hit and the ball didn't move in them (impressive as that is). It's a stupid rule(s), and it was called incorrectly and illogically. About the only thing worse is when the refs don't have a camera angle, but somehow assume that human anatomy and physiology don't exist. "we can't see he had the ball this far {despite the fact he has an arm, and we know he didn't fumble it, and we can see his elbow is past the Line of Gain, and we know the ball was past his elbow... but./..... we can't SEE it"..."

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153 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:59pm

did Gordon not risk serious head injury by continuing his momentum-and-gravity-driven fall to the ground once his helmet was off? does the NFL take these rules seriously?

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140 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:45pm

further,

"If a player's helmet comes off during play, he must not continue to participate in the play to prevent injury"

he can't establish control per this rule, because he hasn't maintained control on the turf, because his helmet comes off prior

see, this is a vicious circle of stupidly written rules .

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179 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by LionInAZ // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:51pm

This is just a vicious circle of immensely stupid arguments. Gordon clearly caught the ball until he was down by contact. The fact that he lost his helmet on contact with the ground after being down is irrelevant.

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120 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:26pm

wrong reply level.

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124 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:30pm

He caught the ball and then was touched down. Play over. Voluntarily tossing the ball away after the ref blows the whistle doesn't negate a prior catch.

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126 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:32pm

127 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion
by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:32pm

"If the receiver is in the process of going to the ground, they will have to maintain control of the football while on the turf for the catch to be ruled as complete."
https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/20/nfl-new-catch-rule-definition-changes

did he maintain control of the football while *on* the turf?

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127 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:34pm

Yes. He had so much control of it he could toss it away after the play was blown dead.

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129 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:37pm

if there were no whistle, how would it be ruled, following the letter of the law?

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131 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:38pm

Down? He had control, and was down by contact. Why wouldn't the refs blow the whistle?

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134 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:41pm

He caught it and maintained possession to the ground, where he was touched down, so the play's dead at that point, I believe.

I think the whole "control" thing only comes into play where the ball is being bobbled about on the way to the ground, which I don't think was the case here. The ball was securely in Gordon's hands until he flipped it away.

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138 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:44pm

"If a player's helmet comes off during play, he must not continue to participate in the play to prevent injury"

he can't establish control per this rule, because he hasn't maintained control on the turf, because his helmet comes off prior

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141 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:47pm

Are you suggesting Gordon should have purposefully dropped the ball after his helmet came off?

Either way, he had full control prior to the helmet coming off, so it would still be a catch.

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143 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by SlevinKelevra // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:49pm

so if a player is deemed to be in control of the ball mid air and falling --- in the event that later their helmet comes off - they should be deemed in control of the ball mid air and falling even if their helmet does not come off. right? the helmet shouldn't matter . so we don't need possession through the ground at all.
right?

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147 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:51pm

They need to keep control when they hit the ground. Gordon did.

As soon as he hit the ground with control, because his helmet popped off, he could then not do anything else (per the helmet rule you are citing). However, he was down by contact anyway, so it didn't matter that his helmet was off. (Had a Bear not been touching him when he fell, then the helmet coming off would mean the play was over.)

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180 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by LionInAZ // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:56pm

Disengage, disengage, disengage...

Don't try to argue with a Russian troll.

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137 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Steve in WI // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:44pm

I was all set to praise Nagy for getting the ball back at his 38 with 14 seconds left and 2 timeouts and not just taking a knee. First play is a pass to Burton to about the 45 of the Patriots. 8 seconds left. Trubisky throws it to Cohen who gets out of bounds with 1 second left. It would be a 58-yard field goal try, so I’m totally fine with opting for the Hail Mary try.

And then Trubisky throws a 15ish-yard pass to Cohen who gets tackled to end the half. WTF? What was the point of that?

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151 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:56pm

Not sure why they didn't try the field goal, there. Long range but low risk as time would run out. Maybe the wind was in their face and they didn't want to give up a possible Patterson/Gordon return if the ball fell short.

Next best choice would presumably be throw it in the end zone and hope for a flag. Trubinsky has the arm to get it there easily from that position.

Last choice would be some sort of trickery over the middle, which is what I thought the call was at first. But no, no lateral, just stat stuffing. Very, very odd.

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155 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Steve in WI // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:06pm

Yeah, I am not aware of what the wind was. I know Parkey’s career long is 53 but he should be physically capable of kicking a 58 yarder. If the wind wasn’t in his face, I’d think the FG try provides the most expected points even if it’s a 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 chance.

I find it very hard to believe that the short pass over the middle isn’t the worst possible choice there.

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182 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by LionInAZ // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:59pm

Yeah, if you're going to do that might as well just take a knee.

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146 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:51pm

Great discipline by the Bears' defence on Brady's attempted trickery at the goal line. Didn't matter as White scored the next play, but looked like not a single Bear dropped their guard while Brady was yelling pre direct snap to the RB.

With Gronk out and Mitchel hurt, the Bears seemed to have keyed on Edelman and have pretty much shut him down. Now they need an answer for White out of the backfield and Gordon, who seems open on nearly every play, even if Brady can't always get the ball to him. Holding the NE offence to 14 points is a pretty good result for the first half, even it was helped by Brady no longer having the arm strength to get the ball to Gordon and Hogan when they're open down field.

Even down by 4, the Bears are in a good spot to pull this out in the second half. At some point, though, Trubinsky has to complete some of those passes he's drifting over receivers' heads on those 5- to 10-yard routes. His ability to keep the chains moving with his legs has been really good, and his deep ball is a threat. If he ever starts completing passes to receivers in the flats this offence is going to score some points.

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150 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 2:54pm

Agreed.

Everyone saw the direct snap to White coming. Well, maybe not White, as he nearly dropped the ball (it looked like it caught him by surprise a little bit).

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174 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:39pm

Start of Q4 now and the Bears have the ball down by only 7. Trub even completed a great over the middle pass on 3rd and 3 to move the sticks, instead of throwing the ball 3 yards over the receiver's head.

This feels like a game the Bears can take. Would make a huge difference to their playoff odds if they do.

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177 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:45pm

Yuck. Miller's got his guy beat and Trub underthrows it badly. INT instead of TD.

Going the same direction that Nagy refused to try a FG at the end of the first half. If the wind is blowing from that direction, maybe it knocked down Trub's pass.

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189 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:07pm

Brady throws an equally ugly INT and the Bears drive smartly down the field.

Back to being a one score game with 4 minutes remaining.

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154 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:06pm

This time it's Gilmore's turn to play "drop the ferret" in the end zone and Chicago has it's second drive of the game end in a TD despite Trubinsky throwing the ball directly into the hands of a NE defender.

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156 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:07pm

Are you spelling it "Trubinsky" on purpose? Is there a joke in there I'm missing?

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158 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:12pm

The only joke is my terrible spelling skills.

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159 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:13pm

Ah, no worries.

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162 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:15pm

I'll just call him "Trub" from now on! :)

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157 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by dank067 // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:08pm

Not that he has ever really validated himself as a good or even above-average starter, but kind of surprising that after how long they've stuck with him that the Jaguars have decided now is the time to bench Blake Bortles

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160 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:13pm

Don't tell me the Jags benched him before garbage time??? Don't they know when he excels?

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187 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:04pm

Well, it included a huge extension and the refusal to believe he was an inconsistent, average QB.

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188 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:05pm

It's also amazing how the Jags have neglected to ever have a good backup QB. Besides Bortles, I mean. He's an excellent #2!

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161 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by herewegobrowniesherewego // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:14pm

Mayfield pumping up his ALEX score today. Tons of short-of-the-sticks passes.

I continue to have very high hopes, but he's been looking like teams have "film on him" now (as much as I question that, because an offense can likewise figure out a defense at the same rate. And all of the superlatives we are using with him are ones we used with Colt McCoy in 2010.

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163 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:17pm

Is anybody getting open for him and he's checking down too soon, or is he taking the only available option?

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165 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by herewegobrowniesherewego // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:21pm

Some checking down, sometimes slow to release and getting sacks, missed a long bomb to Landry earlier.

Defense is off as much as last week, though, too...

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166 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:23pm

Defense being off is a bigger cause of concern than a rookie QB growing pains.

I wonder if they should consider a coaching change?

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167 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by herewegobrowniesherewego // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:24pm

They were #2 DVOA on defense just 2 weeks ago...still think G.Will has been more good than bad.

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169 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:28pm

TB's offense is pretty good. Giving up some plays to them may not drop the Browns' D too much in DVOA.

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173 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by herewegobrowniesherewego // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:37pm

One score game again. A huge run and some smaller ones by Chubb as well as a goal-line long PI on TB. Great 18-yarder on 3rd & 9, Baker to Jarvis.

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164 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:18pm

Kyle Van Noy just scored a TD.

Please give me a priori odds on that event.

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168 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Steve in WI // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:27pm

I don’t understand why I am seeing Josh Bellamy so much in this game. He is without a doubt a terrible wide receiver. The Bears have at least five better pass catching options than him (Robinson, Miller, Gabriel, Burton, and Cohen). There is no reason for him to see the field as a WR absent injuries.

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172 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:34pm

Agreed. To me, that pick was more on him than Trubisky.

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175 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:42pm

Every time I've seen Bellamy he was screwing something up

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170 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:30pm

Things are suddenly tightening up a whole lot in Eagles-Panthers. Cam Newton was stuck below 100 yards passing and the Panthers hadn't scored at all into the 4th quarter, but two consecutive TD drives have them trailing by just 3 inside of 5 minutes.

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171 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:33pm

Looks like Panthers are making a comeback. Anyone with access to that game?

EDIT: Never mind. :) See post above.

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176 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:44pm

Panthers get the ball back but throw three straight incompletions all before the two minute warning. The announcers actually want them to punt, which is really stupid. Carolina rightfully goes for it, Cam finds the open man, the Eagles don't make the tackle and with the extra yardage Carolina is already on the edge of FG range. Now they can go for the lead and not just the tie.

EDIT: Wow, on the replay Cam Newton was basically in the middle of a jump when he made that 4th down pass. He was leaping up, trying to get away from a defender and still has the strength to throw the ball with his feet in the air.

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178 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:48pm

Carolina gets down to third and goal from the 1 and a pass to a wide open Greg Olsen gets them the lead. This has been a pretty crazy rally. I believe the announcers said they had punted five straight times to open the game. Now three straight TDs. Philly will have 1:22 to respond but they need a TD.

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181 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Thok // Oct 21, 2018 - 3:58pm

Part of me really wishes that the reason Adam Vinatari missed the final extra point in Indianapolis-Buffalo is that he realized that there had already been a NFL game with a score of 38-5, but not one with a score of 37-5.

Before you ask, yes, Buffalo was also the losing team in the 38-5 team; it was in 2003 against Kansas City. Buffalo has actually scored 5 points on four separate occasions; no other NFL team has done it more than once. (Buffalo is also the only team to win a game by score 5 points, winning 5-0 against Cincinnati in 1978.)

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184 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:00pm

So the Derek Anderson maneuver - it went well?

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190 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Thok // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:09pm

Double-checking, I forgot to throw in playoff games; Dallas actually won a playoff game in 1970 with a score of 5-0 (which is one of two times they've scored 5 points).

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193 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by LionInAZ // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:15pm

You had to bring up *that* game, grrrrr...

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183 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:00pm

What's with all the kickoff returners trying to return out of the endzone this week?

The Browns just Brownsed themselves. They had first and goal inside the three, and missed on 4th down after the blandest and most predictable four plays. Pathetic, Hue!

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185 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by herewegobrowniesherewego // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:01pm

Made up for it quickly!

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186 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:03pm

The Eagles got a big pass interference play on first down to move inside the Carolina 30, but from there they go four and out and lose. I still think they are the best team in the NFC East, but they are really opening things up for the Redskins or Cowboys to have a great shot to take the division.

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191 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by LionInAZ // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:12pm

Tre Burton proves he's a better player than his QB. But I think the story of this game is the nullification of Kahlil Mack.

Also, amazing that the Patriots D-backs pick up so many penalties today after getting none last week against a better offense at home...

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192 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Eddo // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:14pm

I have to think Mack's ankle was bothering him. Also, the Bears were oddly dropping him into coverage a lot. The two could definitely be related.

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195 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:18pm

I think Mack's ankle has taken him out.

I also think that without Mack at 100%, the Bears won't win many games.

NE's been all sorts of off this game. No Gronk. Lost Michel early (and probably for the season), who was their last healthy power runner. Brady's missing passes and his receivers are dropping them. And Belichick's punting from the Chicago 32 to make sure Trub has a chance to play hero.

24 seconds to play. Let's see how he does.

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197 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:21pm

Unless a the Hail Mary works, the lateral works or a DPI plus connection in the endzojne works, I don't think the game goes to OT (Or Nagy goes the Mike Vrabel way and goes for 2)

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200 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:27pm

That's as close to working as you can get without it actually working.

Pretty good last drive by Trubisky in the circumstances.

This was still a very winnable game going up on the Bear's record as an L. NE played about as well today as they did in Detroit (which is to say, not well at all).

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194 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:17pm

Playing for the FG fails yet again (What else is new). Chandler Catanzaro pushed his kick wide right so Browns and Bucs are headed to OT.

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198 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:22pm

It was from 40 yards. You should be able to simply trust your kicker to hit from there in today's NFL.

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196 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by LionInAZ // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:20pm

Browns in yet another OT game, yay!

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199 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by LionInAZ // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:24pm

That was definitely one dramatic finish to Pats-Bears. No controversy thankfully.

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201 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:31pm

The Saints have a 10 minute, 19 play drive which Sean Payton wanted to end with 7. Sadly, it ended in a 4th and 1 fumbled pitch.

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202 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by vrao81 // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:31pm

Ok so the Saints had a 20 play drive that took 10 minutes that resulted in no points due to a fumble inside the 5 yard line....smh

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203 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:33pm

The Browns REALLY love games that almost end on ties, if not outright end on a tie.

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204 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Steve in WI // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:35pm

I’m sure it’s happened before, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Hail Mary pass completed, but a yard short of the end zone. The Bears didn’t deserve to win this one, but damn.

Not sure what to think about them going forward. I expected this game to be a loss and I realize that facing Brady is a lot harder than facing Osweiler, but a defense this bad at tackling isn’t very good at all. And I know Mack is hurt, but the rest of the D should be top ten caliber without him, or else what was the point of trading for him?

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207 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:44pm

I was looking forward to the chance to get to watch them play on TV, and having done so, what I think is they're not even close to a playoff team without Mack at 100%.

NE played about as bad as NE could play (pretty much on par with their Detroit game), and the Bears still couldn't win at home.

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240 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by RobotBoy // Oct 21, 2018 - 9:47pm

No Gronk. No Michel. No Cannon. Mack isn't right. Trub still too careless with ball.

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237 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by JMM // Oct 21, 2018 - 8:49pm

Here is a Hali Mary falling just short at 15:30 of the highlights. Tie between Steelers and Flacons in 2002.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pR80Qhpna8

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249 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by PatsFan // Oct 22, 2018 - 1:29am

The game between NE and BAL in 2007. BAL had a potential game-winning hail mary come up a yard short. (The was the game where BAL had won it, but oops, Rex Ryan called timeout on the play where BAL stuffed NE on 4th down to win.)

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205 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:38pm

I was going to say "Surprising that the Niners actually crossed midfield". A penalty sent them across midfield, followed by a sack and a fumble.

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206 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:41pm

Equally surprising that Niners actually stopped the Rams in the Red Zone

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208 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:45pm

The hell?! First Chandler Catanzaro pushes a 40 yarder wide right to win the game (And missed a PAT mind you). Then in OT, he sends a 59 yarder (Which only Justin Tucker or Graham Gano or Sebastian Janikowski do consistently, and even then in the case of the last 2) through the uprights.

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209 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:48pm

Wow, Catanzaro missed a 40-yard FG and an XP earlier in the game, but now hits one from 59 to win it. In other news a Bucs QB had yet another huge passing days as Jameis passed for 365 yards. If my calculations are correct the two-headed monster of Fitzpatrick and Winston are on pace for almost 6000 passing yards.

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210 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 4:55pm

So, Joe Flacco's passes are getting tipped at the LOS a lot. Is that Ok? It hasn't resulted in the pick fest that was the Denver-Arizona game, but still.

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211 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:00pm

All right, that could be a problem. So, the Ravens have 6 active offensive linemen on the game .... 1 of them just went down. What happens if another lineman goes down?

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212 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:07pm

How many TEs do they have dressed?

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213 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:11pm

I'm going to guess they have 3 TEs active

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215 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:21pm

Expect to see them a lot.

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214 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:20pm

I've seen defensive linemen playing on the OL in emergencies before. Lorenzo Alexander comes to mind

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217 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:24pm

I expect that's a fairly rare situation. No way DLs practice the other side of the line, so unless you have a guy who played that position a lot in college, you wouldn't risk it.

I'd anticipate they line up with two TEs on the same end of the line, instead. Unless they have a long snapper they'd trust to take regular snaps.

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218 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:27pm

I remember some teams use DLineman as blockers in GoalLine sets. I think the Jags used Tyson Alualu (Back when he was in Jacksonville) that way. And there is the very, very rare case of Mike Vrabel, Red Zone Weapon. I don't think many LBs line up as TE now a days.

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252 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by jtr // Oct 22, 2018 - 8:32am

The Falcons had so many linemen get injured in a game a few years ago that they had to have a tight end play tackle all game. Can't imagine that went great. As far as long snappers go, they usually aren't anywhere near big enough to play offensive line. Since a defender can't line up directly over them, they don't actually have to be big enough to win a block. They just have to be able to be able to slightly slow down a defender who has to slant a couple of gaps to get to them. Teams usually like a roughly linebacker-sized guy at the position because they can contribute more to punt coverage than a full-sized center would be able to.

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216 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:22pm

Drew Brees connects with Benjamin Watson to give the Saints their first points in 28 minutes of game time. Also that was Brees' 500th TD pass,

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220 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by LionInAZ // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:37pm

Drew Brees is a Saint.

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219 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:36pm

At 22-0, the Rams-Niners game is definitely not going the distance. It's pretty much done.

In other news, half the Jags locker room, Doug Marrone, and probably 90% of the Jags fan base is pissed at Blake Bortles.

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221 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:50pm

It's rather fascinating to observe tipping points happen in real life. What was different about today's game that caused it to stand out from Bortles' other body of work?

I didn't see the game on TV, but the line score doesn't even look particularly bad for Bortles, especially given that we was denied his usual opportunity to rack up Q4 results.

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222 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:57pm

6 of 12 for 61 yards and 2 fumbles. He managed to score 0 points during the game. I'm guessing that no points, plus the fact that he was in "Bad to Terrible Bortles" mode in the last 2 weeks (The 4 picks against Kansas City, and the blowout against Dallas), was enough for Marrone to bench him.

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223 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 21, 2018 - 5:57pm

I don't think that 4th quarter stat padding reputation makes much sense for Bortles in recent times, if it was ever really true. The Jags were an excellent team last year and lost few games so of course there was little opportunity for such things. This year they are losing more but their loss last week against the Cowboys is the only example of a blowout loss in which Bortles has been playing late.

Anyway, I doubt this benching will be permanent. I very much doubt Cody Kessler is genuinely a better option.

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224 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by LionInAZ // Oct 21, 2018 - 6:09pm

True re: Cody Kessler but that's hardly credit to Jags management choice to back The Bortles.

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225 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 6:22pm

Can Kessler really be worse?

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226 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 6:30pm

I didn't know Kapri Bibbs played for Washington! There's a nice handful of CSU players around the NFL right now

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227 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 6:48pm

Good job CBS! That was an amazing shot that started close in on the moon, then zoomed out to a wide angle of the field. Ordinary optics can't do that! That lens probably costs as much as a car

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229 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 7:06pm

Quick trivia: how many PATs has Justin Tucker missed in his career?

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230 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Mountain Time ---- formerly Ninjalectual // Oct 21, 2018 - 7:11pm

Justin Tucker missed the tying XP! What? The first xp miss of his career

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235 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 8:22pm

That's it. We can't trust ANY kicker this season. Or ever again.

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231 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Cythammer // Oct 21, 2018 - 7:21pm

Alex Smith should've slid down on that third down play when he saw he wasn't going to get the first down. Going out of bounds allowed Dallas to save a timeout, which could be huge.

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234 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Jose21crisis // Oct 21, 2018 - 8:21pm

Welp, doesn't help that Garrett is stupidly horrible at time management and is overly conservative, so Smith going out of bounds keeping that timeout for Dallas was meaningless.

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233 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 8:18pm

Okay, Bengals fans. My wife wants to watch a movie. Should we start watching it now so I can catch Q4? or will that be garbage time already, in which case I may as well watch the first 15 minutes to see how the Bengals look in primetime.

Their record says they can play with the Chiefs, but I can't see this still being a game by halftime. Am I being unduly harsh on the Bengals?

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236 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by NRG // Oct 21, 2018 - 8:31pm

The Bengals are allergic to night games. For years. Watch the beginning.

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244 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 11:21pm

Good call.

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242 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by justanothersteve // Oct 21, 2018 - 10:09pm

I got home at the end of the 1Q. It's now the half. The Bengals have shown some against the KC defense, but the defense is one of the worst and they should do better. Their defense has shown they can't stop Mahomes. The Bengals had to call time out on defense because one DB didn't get back in time when KC was in a hurry-up. They had to call another for something as equally stupid. It's now 24-7. I'm going to watch a movie.

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243 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by LionInAZ // Oct 21, 2018 - 11:09pm

I saw the score and switched to C-SPAN.

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241 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by PTORaven // Oct 21, 2018 - 10:02pm

Just got home from the Ravens Saints game. Hats off to Drew Brees on 500.

Also, seeing the play live and coming home and reviewing it in slo-mo on GamePass, i'm almost positive Brees didn't pick up the first down on that 4th and 1 before the Saints scored their third TD. I'll know for sure when the coaches film comes out on game pass in a couple days. It looks like where both of the refs are coming in to spot the ball would've been short as well, but after both teams stood around gesturing at them for awhile they spot it forward of that point. Too bad the Ravens had to use both challenges early in the first quarter, although there still might not have been enough evidence from the camera angles (although the coaches film that I guess the refs don't get to see will give a conclusive answer, since Brees reached over the pile with the ball). Kind of a bummer (if I'm right), but it was a hell of a game nonetheless. here's the farthest forward he got the ball. seems about a foot shy of the first down marker https://imgur.com/F1TJwux

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245 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 11:31pm

I'm not sure what this angle is telling me about the position of the ball relative to the down marker. The camera's behind and above the ball, shooting forward and down.

I'm no expert in this field (hopefully the NFL replay officials are), so I don't know how the ball will look relative to the yard markers when flattened to 2D from this angle. The only thing I know for sure is I've seen enough of these types of photos, shown from multiple different camera angles, to know not to trust my eyes when it comes to a flat photograph of a 3D event.

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246 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by PTORaven // Oct 21, 2018 - 11:36pm

well the coaches film will be out in a few days on GamePass and i'll be able to see for sure then cause the shot should be right overhead, but like i said i was at the game, not just trying to interpret the replay, so i did actually see it in 3D. the main thing is that the refs looked like they both had the spot perfect coming in from either sideline, so i don't know why they'd listen to both sides plead their case and then choose a different spot. what good does listening to the players do? just put the ball where you saw it.

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247 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Lost Ti-Cats Fan // Oct 21, 2018 - 11:49pm

That does sound very odd. And yes, the overhead shot should make it clear.

Would be a tough break if the ref's got it wrong.

As a kid, I used to love it when the chains came out. It always seemed so random as to whether they'd made the first down or not. Now I realize just how random it really was.

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248 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by PatsFan // Oct 22, 2018 - 1:20am

For most of the field the chains are almost entirely for show.

Watch closely -- you'll see that whenever a first down is made outside the 20s, when the refs actually spot the ball for the ensuing first down play they will "cheat" and move the nose of the ball be right on top of the front edge of the nearest yardline. So once the ball is spotted when a play is blown dead they know whether or not it's a first down without needing any chains -- because they can easily see if the ball is at least right on top of the front edge of the line to gain, which will always be a yardline.

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251 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Theo // Oct 22, 2018 - 8:30am

Browns/Landry had an illegal shift penalty; he wasn't set pre-snap. But it looked like a normal motion - they ran it almost identical 2 plays right after it, and no flag was thrown.
Can someone enlighten me, why a single man, off the LOS, in motion is a penalty??

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253 Re: Week 7 Open Game Discussion

by Aaron Brooks Good Twin // Oct 22, 2018 - 8:42am

I believe if he stops, he has to stop for one second before starting again.

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