Giants, Jets Side Story

New York Jets LB Harvey Langi
New York Jets LB Harvey Langi
Photo: USA Today Sports Images

NFL Week 15 - Great news, Eagles, Cowboys, and Washington fans: Joe Judge's head-coaching job with the New York Giants appears to be safe!

Ralph Vacchiano of SNY reported on Monday that Giants co-owner John Mara is both enamored with Judge and eager to be patient with the coach after giving Ben McAdoo and Pat Shurmur quick hooks over the last five seasons.

Per Vacchiano's source: "(Mara) loves Judge. He thinks he's found his (Bill) Belichick or (Bill) Parcells."

Try not to giggle (non-Giants fans) or sob (Giants fans) uncontrollably, dear readers.

Vacchiano's reporting reinforces everything Walkthrough has seen/read/heard emanating from East Rutherford over the last few months. Judge—whose coaching drove several veterans to retirement at the start of training camp, who thinks fourth-and-1 near midfield while trailing is a prime punting opportunity, and who has difficulty with the sort of technology kindergartners used to learn phonics last year—has somehow emerged victorious from a quiet coup at Giants headquarters. Of course, his prime challengers were Dave Gettleman (likely to retire) and Jason Garrett (fired), so this was much more like a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos than of thrones.

Judge is yet another example of that remarkable sort of individual that football coaching seems to breed by the bushel: someone outstanding at keeping the job but terrible at actually doing the job.

Coaches like Judge possess almost supernatural powers of blame-deflection and timeline extension. For example, Judge claimed on Monday that the Giants rebuild has been delayed because it has taken longer than expected to teach players how to practice. What the hell is that even supposed to mean?

Judge has also been rehashing the same tired "culture change" boilerplate that coaches have been spewing for decades. It takes downright transcendent chutzpah to still be talking about the need for culture change and better practice habits AFTER TWO YEARS ON THE FREAKIN' JOB yet convince ownership that somehow you are not the one who should be held accountable for those problems. Judge, like fellow former Belichick buddies Bill O'Brien and Matt Patricia, appears to be fueled by nothing but said chutzpah, a staggering ego, simmering rage, and a little too much coffee.

There are two probabilities to consider before we continue. First, Vacchiano's sources (and various other reports/whispers) may be off base, or Judge may do something inexcusable over the next month, and Giants ownership might still end up doing the logical thing and setting Judge adrift in the Hudson Bay on a garbage barge. Second, Judge might actually improve as a coach with Gettleman, Garrett, and the COVID restrictions which indeed hampered Judge's first season out of the picture. Walkthrough gives the first possibility a 20% chance of happening and the second possibility about a 0.2% chance. Keeping Judge would be very much in character for Mara, and Judge has not done a solitary thing through two seasons to inspire confidence in his leadership.

Think of what happens next: Judge will get to help select his general manager, who will probably be yet another Patriots castoff whose sole qualification is being a Patriots castoff. Daniel Jones sure sounds like he's shelved for the year, the Saquon Barkley saga is reaching its predictable conclusion, and the Giants are somehow (thanks, Uncle Dave!) tight against the 2022 salary cap. That means the Giants are about to entrust a floor-to-rafters rebuild to Punty McHeadset!

And here's the kicker: Jones is also an untouchable Mara favorite. If you thought the Jeffrey Lurie-Doug Pederson-Carson Wentz drama in Philly came to a thunderously weird conclusion last year, just wait until Judge and Mara clash over whether to give an Eli Manning cosplayer $16 million per touchdown when the Giants are once again 4-9 in 2023.

The Giants dysfunction makes the Cowboys and Eagles look like model organizations: Jerry Jones' "spend money on famous names" strategy is dumb but not stupid, and the Eagles have puppydog charm on the field, an abundance of future draft capital, and a puncher's chance at a wild-card berth. As for Washington: well, Ron Rivera is cool. The Giants are just squandering decades of goodwill and benefit of the doubt by doubling down on Judge. They cannot stop searching for their next Bill Parcells when what they really need to do is stop living in the past.

But enough about the Giants. It's time to hop back on the Turnpike south, merge onto I-78, look for exit 24 … oops, is it Route 24? … darn it, I always screw this up. Gotta pull over and reset my GPS…

TankWatch: New York Jets

As the 2021 season draws toward its conclusion, TankWatch examines teams at the bottom of the standings and determines how they can claw back toward respectability over the next few weeks/months/years.

Jets Season in a Nutshell: Three weeks per month, the Jets are athletically outclassed on both sides of the ball by their opponent, typically resulting in a slow-motion blowout loss.

Last Sunday, the New Orleans Saints overwhelmed the Jets on both lines of scrimmage and hammered out a 30-9 victory. The Jets offense and special teams were more lively against the Eagles in Week 12, but their defense proved incapable of stopping the run, and their offense ran out of steam before halftime in a 38-13 loss. And that's what happens when the Jets face middleweights led by Gardner Minshew or Taysom Hill. Things get really ugly when Mac Jones and the Patriots or Josh Allen come to town.

Once per month, the Jets pull themselves together for a stunning upset or a competent victory over a fellow bottom-feeder. But it's impossible to tell when those performance spikes are coming.

Coaching Situation: In a season full of self-inflicted coaching scandals in Jacksonville and Las Vegas, Robert Saleh and his staff have mostly avoided any embarrassing own-goals. Still, there have been some puzzling situations: the Jets defense failing to prepare for Minshew during a week of Jalen Hurts injury murmurs, the unvaccinated Joe Flacco trade (a Joe Douglas move which received Saleh's approval), and poor message management during the brief Zach Wilson/Mike White controversy.

Saleh's biggest problem, however, remains the fact that the Jets have fielded an NFL Europe-caliber roster all season.

Quarterback Situation: Wilson has been mostly miserable. A weak supporting cast and the fact that the Jets are always playing from behind contribute to the problem, but Wilson bounced a routine pass into the flat against the Saints last week, and previous games have been filled with other troubling throws. Wilson appears to get worse in garbage time, which could be a discouraging sign that he's not figuring out how to find and deliver the easy throws that soft late-game defenses offer him.

Building Blocks: There is not a single blue-chip prospect on the active roster right now. Wilson hasn't earned that label yet. Tackle Mekhi Becton and edge-rusher Carl Lawson have been injured all season. The best young players on the field right now, such as guard Alijah Vera-Tucker and edge rusher John Franklin-Myers, are more like nice little complementary pieces than true cornerstones.

The Jets have nothing to show from their 2018 to 2020 drafts except Becton and Quinnen Williams. They're going into battle with a roster full of recent late-round picks and second-tier free agents. The results have been predictable.

Future Assets: Finally, some good news! The Jets possess two first-round picks thanks to the Jamal Adams trade and two second-round picks thanks to the Sam Darnold trade.

The Jets also possess $49 million in on-paper 2022 cap space. Safety Marcus Maye is their biggest-name in-house free agent, and they are likely to let him walk. The Jets can afford to keep some useful veterans such as C.J. Mosley around for another year and can re-sign veterans such as Jamison Crowder and Morgan Moses if they want to keep the offense spackled together.

Rebuilding Plan: Hit on those early draft picks, naturally. Some combination of edge rusher, cornerback, offensive line reinforcement, and tight end would be a fine haul for what should be four picks among the first 50. After watching Ty Johnson drop multiple swing passes on Sunday, a Day 2 running back would also be swell. That cap space is best spent in-house or used on one-year deals for competent veterans to plug gaping roster holes. The Jets should aim realistically for a bottom-of-the-playoff-chase 2022 season that they can use as a springboard toward 2023.

Dangling Mike White in front of some quarterback-needy team in exchange for a late-round pick would also be wise, because New York is New York, and the Jets won't be doing Wilson any favors by letting White act like a hero in the second halves of 2022 preseason games.

Final Prognosis: Once again, the Jets are waiting for next year's draft, and they need precision-tuned instruments to identify any flickers of quarterback development or coaching optimism. But things aren't as hopeless as they can appear when Taysom Hill is scampering through the defense for long touchdowns. Becton and Vera-Tucker could soon anchor a trustworthy offensive line. Lawson, Franklin-Williams and a newcomer could create a formidable pass rush. Corey Davis, Elijah Moore, a returnee such as Crowder, and some 2022 draftees could be the nucleus of a fun-to-watch offense that allows Wilson to succeed as a ball-distributor once the Jets aren't facing opponents bigger, faster, and more experienced than they are at nearly every position.

The Jets are no worse off than they usually are. For an organization rebuilding after an Adam Gase administration, that's progress.

TebowMania Ten Years After: Reality Bites

This installment of TebowMania Ten Years After is dedicated to the memory of Demaryius Thomas, who passed away at age 33 on December 9.

Many truly memorable superhero story arcs end with the villains joining forces with the heroes to stop a greater threat. The seminal Justice League Unlimited cartoon series of the early 2000s, for example, ended with Lex Luthor joining forces with Batman, Superman, and company so (spoilers) he could swindle Darkseid into leaving the galaxy instead of enslaving Earth.

And lo, there came a day when the football world's only hope of stopping TebowMania rested with Walkthrough's mightiest antagonists: Tom Brady and Bill Belichick.

If you remember the 41-23 Week 15 Patriots victory over the Broncos in 2011 as a devastating indictment of all things Tim Tebow, you have probably conflated this game in your memory with the Patriots' playoff victory over the Broncos a few weeks later. Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. Tebow played moderately well in this game—11-of-22 passing for 194 yards, 12-93-2 with one fumble lost rushing—and these excerpts from Audibles indicate that the game felt competitive until the fourth quarter.

Aaron Schatz: The Patriots just look horrible early on defense. Just awful. Can't tackle. Can't get off blocks. The Broncos are running all over them. Tim Tebow has also hit a couple of good passes on totally open receivers.

Vince Verhei: Ben Muth has said that teams don't even bother blocking cornerbacks on running plays, because cornerbacks don't want to tackle running backs anyway. New England's defense appears to be fielding 11 cornerbacks.

Aaron Schatz: The Broncos had something like 240 yards in the first quarter. They get into the red zone near the start of the second quarter, and Tebow runs for 7 yards on third-and-8, but there's a holding penalty. At first the Pats accept the holding, then they decide to decline instead, so it is fourth-and-1. Denver brings in the field goal kicker. Man, if you are Denver, doesn't it make sense to go for it more often on fourth-and-1? Especially with Tebow? Does anyone think this Pats defense has more than a 20% chance to stop Tebow on fourth-and-1?

Vince Verhei: On the same note, Denver is currently ahead 16-14 because they missed their first extra point, then kicked the next one. Shouldn't Denver always go for two, especially to make up for the one they missed earlier?

Aaron Schatz: That was the best play of the game. The Patriots players picked up the aborted extra point and went running for the end zone celebrating. Whoever "scored" with it pointed to the sky, I think mocking Tebow. They had no idea that you can't return a missed extra point for a score in the NFL. It was hilarious.

Tim Gerheim: Wow, check out Jim Nantz's tie-and-sweater combination; I didn't know he was a Gryffindor.

Aaron Schatz: The Patriots offense really took over after the first quarter. It doesn't even look like the Patriots defense is playing much better than before, mostly because the Patriots defense has barely been on the field ... they've stopped the Broncos a couple times and that was good enough for the Pats to score 27 straight unanswered points.

Whoops, forgot one other thing: fumble luck. Three Denver fumbles so far, and all of them were recovered by the Patriots, including the muffed punt by [Quan] Cosby. Muffed punts are almost always recovered by the return team, not the punting team, so that's a nice piece of serendipity.

Mike Tanier: It ain't over yet.

Aaron Schatz: No kidding. Tebow just made an amazing play in his own end zone. Second-and-14, Pats defender Brandon Deaderick blows past Zane Beadles and tries to drag Tebow down for the safety, Tebow stays on his feet, but the ball bounces loose. Deaderick is wrapped up with an offensive lineman on the ground though, so Tebow is able to pick up the ball in the back zone and throw it away (skipping a pass on the ground ahead of Demaryius Thomas) instead of taking a safety or, worse, the Pats getting a touchdown. Just another one of those amazing athletic plays by Tebow.

Oh boy. Here we go with the Tebow. Third-and-18, Devin McCourty thinks he has help over the top and Sergio Brown is still hanging around in the middle of the field, leaving Demaryius Thomas wide open on the sideline for a 39-yard gain. On the next play, a dumpoff to Lance Ball. Jerod Mayo, who is covering Ball, leaves Ball to try to come after Tebow scrambling. 35-yard gain. Next play: Tebow quarterback power for a touchdown. Patriots by 11.

Hmmm. Tebow Time may be preempted by a Denver defensive scheme that is leaving the Patriots tight ends wide open in the middle of the field.

Mike Tanier: I am stuck watching anti-Tebow Vince Young, but it appears that the Patriots have run out of plays and plan to run Tom Brady sneaks for the rest of the game at the goal line.

Robert Weintraub: Oh, [television director] Mike Arnold, no! Tebow is wandering around after the gun looking for Brady, the Tom/Tim meeting they need to capture, and just as they go to shake hands Arnold cuts to Welker just standing there! They switched it fast, so perhaps he just called the wrong camera in the heat of the moment, or maybe they were losing the handheld look. Made up for it with good sound, though, hearing Brady say "maybe we'll see you again."

Here's the video of the Tebow-Brady meeting Rob mentions. It's genuinely sincere and touching. My shriveled little heart grew two sizes watching it.

Then…

And here's a highlight montage of the game. If you listen to the chuckling at the end of the Wizard of Oz "TE-HE-BOWWW" gag when Tebow is sacked for a 27-yard loss, you can almost hear the relief in the voices of the hosts, who had probably been chuckling off-camera at Tebow for weeks.

So the Broncos lost to a Patriots team destined to reach the Super Bowl, but Tebow produced his second semi-credible game as a dual-threat in three weeks. If Jalen Hurts, another collegiate superstar turned scrambling second-year starter whose team is at the bottom of the playoff chase, had a game like this against the 2021 Patriots or Buccaneers at the end of a winning streak, no one would think, "Eh, that kid has no chance of being anything but a fad." No one would build a cultural phenomenon around him either. But as mentioned in past installments, it's not hard to imagine a world where Tebow developed a little as a passer and decision-maker and someone built a Ravens-style offense around him.

The Broncos were 1-4 when Tebow replaced Kyle Orton. The Patriots loss dropped them to 8-6. They remained in contention for both the messy 2011 AFC West and a wild-card berth. A win on December 24 on Christmas Eve against the Bills would solidify their playoff chances and prove that the loss to the Patriots was just a minor plot twist in the TebowMania saga. Heck, it might have kickstarted a whole new religious movement.

Tim Tebow on Christmas Eve? What could possibly go wrong?

Next Week: It's a Blunderful Life.

Comments

62 comments, Last at 17 Dec 2021, 12:36pm

1 Be a long trip to get Judge to Hudson Bay

setting Judge adrift in the Hudson Bay on a garbage barge

Considering Hudson Bay is about 775 miles from East Rutherford, and garbage barge setting out from the Hackensack River near the Meadowlands would have to travel about 2600 miles to get there - down the river to Newark Bay, out into New York Harbor, up the East River and through Hell Gate into Long Island Sound, out past Montauk into the Atlantic, south of Cape Cod, past Nova Scotia and Cape Breton Island and up into the Gulf of St Lawrence, north of Newfoundland around the tip of Labrador, then through Hudson Strait south of Baffin Island - I think you meant "New York Bay".

45 I had jumped on the Hudson Bay issue immediately and then ...

...found all these comments, so no need to pile on.

Except that, not too far from my Seattle suburb, there is a high school called Hudson's Bay.  Where the hell did the apostrophe-s come from and why is a school in Vancouver, WA named after either a Canadian department store (spelled right) or a Canadian bay (spelled wrong) 1,500 miles away?Rumor has it there was once a Hudson's Bay Company trading in furs and such that had a local hub there in the 1800s. (Still doesn't explain where the apostrophe-s came from in the first place, but at least the school is not called New York Harbor!).

Okay, back to football.

26 Love it

Meet your new coach of the Baffin Bay Blue Bombers! Only Joe Judge has the toughness to thrive in these conditions. These penguins run a lot of Fumblerooski and are very difficult to beat at home. Miami is another story.

p.s. I’m pretty sure there are no penguins there but it’s fun to dream.

28 Penguins are southern hemisphere

In reply to by beargoggles

For that, you'd have to exile Judge to a garbage barge in the Straits of Magellan, and he'd be the new coach of the Ushuaia Gauchos.

30 Fun fact:  Churchill,…

In reply to by beargoggles

Fun fact:  Churchill, Manitoba on the shores of Hudson Bay is the most southerly location with a large polar bear population in the fall (the bears migrate north when the ice freezes - almost need to say if the ice freezes given climate change).  From his new base, Judge could coach the Churchill Polar Bears, a team with awesome line play and surprising speed, if a fairly woeful passing game.

Equally fun fact:  Churchill Polar Bear veterans will eat Judge if he tries to make them run laps after fumbling the football/seal carcass.

 

19 But would one be "adrift" in a river?

The Hudson flows pretty quickly - about 3 mph (slightly faster downstream than up; it is a tidal estuary, so it flows both ways) - so a garbage barge wouldn't meander about like an ice floe in the Hudson River like it would in the bay.  It would eventually get somewhere.

Unlike the Giants.

52 I meant the Hudson River…

I meant the Hudson River. But I like the idea of sending him up to the Hudson Bay.

I ended up Google Mapping all the little swampy bodies of water around East Rutherford and realized none of them had a funny enough name to go with. "Hackensack River" doesn't sound big enough to float a barge, though it is once it gets to that part of Jersey. 

40 Considering that at one time…

Considering that at one time NYC ran out of landfill space and was shipping out its trash overseas by barge looking for someone who would accept it, setting Joe Judge adrift in Hudson Bay is not so far-fetched. Not so clear that the Canadians would take in NFL garbage.

2 Was my initial thought, too

I know the whole "the only team in New York is the Bills" trope is a thing, but I didn't know the Giants had gotten so bad we exiled them to Nunavut.

3 While the Jets commentary is…

While the Jets commentary is fair, I have a couple of disagreements.  The 2020 draft looks like a disaster now, but Bryce Hall, not Becton, is the best piece from that draft.  He's obviously at least a solid #2 corner; he doesn't give up many receptions or yardage when he's not called for BS pass interference (Philly game).  2021 has been rough for Becton and Denzel Mims, who looked good last year but lost this year.  The 2021 draft looks a lot better (Vera-Tucker and Moore have been good, even though Moore is now hurt).  Both Michael Carters have looked like they belong, although Michael Carter III probably should be a slot corner.  Which gets us to Wilson, which is where the major problem is.

The defense is lacking in major talent; the starting safeties have been injured all year, with Ashtyn Davis being bad.  The corners have been better than expected, primarily because Bryce Hall has been good, but not a shutdown guy you have follow the Stephon Diggs of the world.  The defense gets torched in the running game and by running backs in the passing game, continually giving up 15 yards or more to screens and dump-offs.  They need linebackers who can stop the run and cover, and they only have CJ Mosley, if anything there.

The offense has looked solid when Wilson hasn't played; the only times it looked terrible without him in the lineup were against the Pats and the Bills, the top two defenses in the league by DVOA.  The Jets need a solid #2 next year, because it is looking more and more likely that Wilson is going to bust.  I'd let Mike White go only if you get a second round pick for him; they should designate him at that level in restricted free agency.  Sure, he'd be making almost 4 million, but they have the cap room.  Otherwise they need to sign someone, and I'm not sure who will be out there.  At least we know White knows the system.  If anything, I'd prefer him to be the back-up, and not Flacco.

5 I had a feeling Judge was…

I had a feeling Judge was going to stick around once Garrett got fired.  Because Garrett would have been the guy who have take over when Judge gets fired in-season.  I wonder how the NY media is going to play this; the Jets got savaged over keeping Rex Ryan when changing General Managers, but at least Ryan had some success prior to that.  Of course, the Jets had several people pass on the GM job, and ended up with a terrible GM (check out the 2013/2014 drafts if you want a laugh).  This isn't going to go the way the Giants think, to paraphrase grumpy Luke Skywalker.

6 A suggestion.

Mike,  Like guy last week, I am of the opinion that the Tebow coverage has been drawn out a bit too far.  IMHO a better way to do something like this would be a series on "flash in the pan" performances focusing on one player per week, e.g.  Clint Longley against the Redskins in 1974, Timmy Smith in  Super Bowl 22.

7 it's just half of one column a week

In reply to by serutan

I don't begrudge Mike, the part of the column writes itself, in the sense that half of it was written 10 years ago. We'll get a Mike Sanchez one in a few years maybe, and maybe in 2030 we'll get a 10 year reunion of the COVID year. 

I kid. Though I thought it was a missed opportunity to memorialize Demaryius Thomas and the role he played in Tebowmania, aside from the little aside at the start. I mean, there were a lot of parts, but NOBODY played a bigger role in Tebowmania than DT, including perhaps TT...

21 Agree.    A weekly rehash of…

In reply to by serutan

Agree. 

 

A weekly rehash of something that happened 10 years ago seemingly designed to mock TeboManio seems driven by spite more than desire to inform or entertain. 

31 As a counterpoint, I've…

In reply to by serutan

As a counterpoint, I've greatly enjoyed the Tebow coverage. I'm a broncos fan, and was one of the few broncos fans who hated the pick at the time. This series has been cathartic for me, and has made me re-examine certain things. I do now believe that if Tebow had come out of college in the past 3 years, he likely would've been far more successful, as the offense would have been built around him much better. 

54 TebowMania: Ten Years After…

TebowMania: Ten Years After wraps next week, with a Bonus Episode to celebrate the playoff win in January.

I have been using it to try to document how much has changed and how much has remained the same over the last decade, and to try to get a "real-time" sense of how it felt to suddenly see the NFL world swept up in something really strange. It's also a chance for me to reflect on a few personal things, as readers no-doubt have noticed: TebowMania occurred just as I left teaching and embarked on my full-time writing career.

Also, I have been placing it at the bottom of midweek Walkthroughs because I realize it's not for everyone! 

59 The guy's writing roughly a…

In reply to by serutan

The guy's writing roughly a million words per week.  Some of it's bound to not be to one's liking.  At least these parts of the columns he can write in advance as they're not dependent on that week's results. Also, although I didn't visit the site in those days, I understand Tebow-mania had a significant impact on the nascent FO.  While FO was trying to make a name for itself by digging deeper and identifying sustainable results behind the "any given Sunday" randomness, Tebow-mania was defying these upstart analytics guys.  Perhaps going back and re-visiting those days is a catharsis for Tanier and the others.

The series you suggested would be interesting, too.  Maybe next year?

8 I call b*s*

Sorry, Mike.

“Judge, like fellow former Belichick buddies Bill O'Brien and Matt Patricia, appears to be fueled by nothing but said chutzpah, a staggering ego, simmering rage, and a little too much coffee.”

O’Brian won four division titles and had five winning seasons in six years.  Say what you will about his management skills, he could coach, unlike the other two.

38 O'Brien definitely left the…

In reply to by Raiderfan

O'Brien definitely left the Texans in a terrible state with his moves as a GM, but his coaching resume is well above average: 52-48 record, 5 winning seasons, and 2 playoff wins, and for half his tenure (pre-Watson) he had mostly awful QBs. He is in a class way above the likes of Patricia or Judge. 

10 Jerry Jones' "spend money on…

Jerry Jones' "spend money on famous names" strategy is dumb but not stupid

For all the Cowboys' faults, recently this has not been one of them. They have got to be one of the more successfully homegrown clubs in the league at the moment.

27 Agreed

Was just going to comment the same thing. It's been a long time since Dallas brought in a big name free agent from outside the organization. They have re-signed their own stars of course, including sometimes questionably, but chasing after shiny new things has not been the problem.

34 Yeah it's hard to know…

In reply to by BlueStarDude

Yeah it's hard to know whether he's referring to Jerry of old or current Jerry, whose overspending involved caving to the Zeke contract and prematurely signing Jaylon Smith. The lone big outside move Jerry made recently was the Amari Cooper trade, and that ended up being a great move. I suppose he could be criticized for waiting so long to pay Prescott, but that was at least due to caution rather than a gambling mindset.

Would be great if the salary cap didn't punish teams for drafting well, as I thought the original intent was to prevent owners like Jerry from buying Super Bowls through free agency. 

11 I know Judge is an…

I know Judge is an acceptable target and the Giants suck, but a perspective that's a bit more fair:

The conservative decisions are indeed a big problem.

His players play for him and he's well-respected in the locker room. 

His team is more organized and professional than either of last two coaches (low bar, I know).

I don't get the blame-deflection thing. He opens up about challenges he's faced and somehow that means he's not taking responsibility?

The biggest problems with the Giants are the offensive system (thanks, Jason Garrett!) and the O-line.

That said, a HC is judged on his record, and his record sucks. 

 

25 It starts with Gettleman

Clearly the biggest problem with this team is the GM. 

But Judge has cost his team opportunities to win, or at least play closer games with the players he has. 

As a Giants fan I'd like to see Judge gone, and the whole stench of the Gettleman era removed. But, what seems fair to me is to have a broad GM search, and allow the new GM to decide. If they conduct a GM search having decided that Judge is staying it will really limit their options, since it sends a message to the new GM that one of his most important early decisions has been made for him.

 

 

43 I agree with both points,…

I agree with both points, the first with a bit of a caveat:

(1) Gettleman hasn't succeeded. He's unfairly pilloried in the media (e.g. he got killed over the OBJ trade, which worked out great) but that doesn't mean he's a good GM. The caveat is that it seems that he's tried to address the issues they have--he's acquired O-lineman in literally every legal way possible (high, mid-round, and low draft picks, FAs both expensive and cheap, trades, street FAs), addressed LB and CB when they were the weakest positions on the team (and Bradberry and Martinez have both worked out), etc., but a lot of his moves just haven't worked out...I don't know how you can acquire like 12 O-linemen in 3 years and have every single one of them suck, but it's happened.

(2) I agree that you can't hamstring your GM search by insisting that Judge must remain. It's not he's done anything special to deserve that, though he's nowhere near the rage-filled, incompetent egomaniac people like Tanier dunk on him for. 

In conclusion...well, I'm glad none of this is my job to fix.

12 i disagree that the Jets are…

i disagree that the Jets are not worse off than they usually are.  At least the last few years of Gase their run defense was competent.  We dont even have that this season.  The only bright spot of the campaign was five quarters of Mike White, who immediately got hurt, got Covid and got benched in order to save the job of the GM.  Theyre not close to bottom of playoff contention, and to make matters worse they dont seem willing to pull the plug on Wilson, instead opting to spend another year in QB Hell hoping he can improve.  AFter next year's 5-12 campaign, they will fire Bob then bring in an offensive coach saying he can fix wilson.  After that fails, that coach will get to stay and draft a new qb!  its a never ending carousel of suck.  

The jets best hope is to pull a 2018 cardinals, who fired Wilks and Rosen after one season.  Bring in Joe Brady or another offensive mind NOW, trade Wilson for picks and roll with White for one season as you start building a defense.  use the 2023 draft for your qb (or get lucky via trade) and maybe by 2024 they can compete for a 10-7 record.  

14 While I like Joe Brady, and…

While I like Joe Brady, and would love him as an offensive coordinator, I wouldn't bring him in as a head coach right now.  Brady has only been an offensive coordinator once (Panthers), and he lasted a season and a half in it.  I also don't think Saleh is only getting 2 years.  If anybody gets fired in the next two years, it would be the defensive coordinator, Ulbrich.  I woudl prefer he doesn't get canned this year, since the talent on defense is lacking a lot.  As I wrote earlier in this thread, the offense has been competent when Wilson isn't playing, so it's not the current offensive scheme or coordinator that is the problem.

There's no reason they can't trade Wilson at season's end with the coaching staff they have now.  They also can go with Wilson for 2022, with White or someone else as backup.  Douglas does need to accumulate picks for 2023, but trading down with one of their first round picks can give them an extra first rounder next year.  Basically, they need several teams to fall in love with at least one of the QB prospects in this draft.

There's no way Joe Douglas gets fired if Mike White kept playing at a solid level.  If anything that would be a gigantic boon to the him and the team.  I might add the offense looked competent with Flacco and Josh Johnson at the helm, to the point where I'm doubting how great Mike White is, and worrying a lot more about Wilson.

17 Also, Gase had nothing to do…

Also, Gase had nothing to do with their run defense.  That's Gregg Williams.  The defense was ranked 11th in DVOA in 2019, and 21st in 2020.  The offense ranked 32nd in 2019 and 31st in 2020, both times under -20.00%.  The Jets offense has a DVOA of -8.7%.  I'm curious what it's DVOA is when Wilson is not playing.

18 I realized I can at least…

I realized I can at least look up the weeks where Wilson was hurt.  Here they are:

Opponent              Offensive DVOA                      Passing DVOA

New England:             -6.2%                                     6.7%

Cincinnati:                 22.7%                                     42.2%

Indianapolis:              -4.3%                                     23.4%

Buffalo:                     -19.2%                                    -19.2%

Miami:                        12.4%                                    5.3%

 

23 My goodness

Jets fans here gotta be the most pessimistic lol more or less wanting Wilson to bust 9 starts into his career so you can lose millions in cap space and get less than what Darnold got, is crazy.

Yes vets played better just...chill. And this is coming from a guy that didn't think Wilson was a top 2 QB in the draft. 

60 It's midseason.

With this

to make matters worse they dont seem willing to pull the plug on Wilson,

And statements like this

The jets best hope is to pull a 2018 cardinals, 

That's hoping to fail, 9 starts into someone's career. Very impatient when the season is still ongoing, past the trade deadline.

61 Have to say that I wasn't…

In reply to by ImNewAroundThe…

Have to say that I wasn't advocating that they trade Wilson, just that they can do it.  Only one poster believed this was a good idea, and that poster was the main purveyor of complete and utter despair for the Jets' future in this thread.  It's completely understandable why a Jets fan would feel that despair right now, after only 1 winning season in the last 11 years.  I don't know how long you have followed the Packers, but that same despair would have been understandable in that fanbase back in the dark ages of the 70s, 80s, and early 90s.  I remember the last game of the 1981 season fondly, rooting for the NY Sack Exchange to get 11 sacks to break the Raiders' record; they only got Lynn Dickey down 9 times in a 28-3 victory that got the Jets and the Giants into the playoffs.  The Packers' high points in those years were two short-lived playoff appearances a decade apart and cheapshotting Jim McMahon.  So the despair is understandable but misguided.  Eventually the team turns it around.  Of course, it's possible you the fan dies first.

62 Not as much as OP but

There's no reason they can't trade Wilson at season's end with the coaching staff they have now.

I would hope as a fan you wouldn't want to trade the #2 overall pick a year later. It's not like you selected the wrong position. A return, like Rosen (2nd and 5th), wouldn't good. It's something you can do if a Murray is there otherwise, why not give him time like you did Darnold and...well he got more than Rosen (2nd, 4th, and 6th)! Would and should a smart team do another Darnold type trade, no but there always seems to be 1/31 teams that trick themselves into something.

But he's got a ways to go to get to Rosen levels of bad (Allen also was not great that year) and the draft prospects have a ways to go to reach Murray levels of prospects. You made your (new) bed, it's alright to lie in for bit. Maybe the environment needs to change before you can sleep better at night and it's not actually the bed. Another new bed costs $$$$.

You may be jaded but you can still hope instead of throwing the towel.

49 The other game and two…

The other game and two drives that didn't come against the number 1 pass defense in the NFL.  I didn't watch the Buffalo game live, but I did watch most of White's plays in that game, and they still look better than what Wilson has done.. most of this year.  Doesn't mean I want to jettison Wilson, but having a capable backup in case Wilson gets hurt again, or just completely stinks it up next year should be on Douglas' to-do list.

33 Daniel Jones sucks!

I just wanted to take this opportunity to correct a number of my prior posts.  I post on this site often and many times get a counter-discussion or angry rant from a contrarian.

I wish that I could find my previous posts on this site.  I posted at least twice on this site earlier this season that Daniel Jones does not suck.  Not one person contradicted me!   Where were all of you guys then?

I just wanted to take this opportunity to correct my previously posted erroneous opinion and state my current opinion that Daniel Jones does in fact suck.

44 Stick with your original…

Stick with your original opinion. As a Jets fan, I don't suppose you watch the Giants analytically. Why would you? Lord knows I don't Jets analytically...or pretty much at all. But if you did, you'd see that he's far better than people give him credit for. Being overdrafted and looking vaguely like his predecessor has not been good for his public perception. 

Compare his numbers to this year's crop of rookies, e.g., who mostly have avoided criticism. It's not close. "Not fair!" you say--"this is his third year, and those rookies are in terrible situations!" OK, use his rookie numbers, them. And of course, he's been in a terrible situation his whole career. As an example:

Jones' rookie year: 61.9% compl %, 24 TD, 12 INT, 5.38 ANY/A

Justin Fields' rookie year: 57.6%, 6 TD, 10 INT, 3.87 ANY/A

Trevor Lawrence's rookie year: 58.2%, 9 TD, 14 INT, 4.32 ANY/A

Not close. And Jones is a lot better now than he was then. 

 

47 Joe Burrow inherited an…

Joe Burrow inherited an awful situation and is fine, Kyler Murray similarly, and he is having a great season, I understand that the Giants are still a bad team but it is in part due to Daniel Jones.  He is playing at replacement level this year.  

You are cherry picking Fields and Lawrence, why not use Mac Jones and Lamar Jackson?

 

57 Yes, Mac Jones has done well…

Yes, Mac Jones has done well, but I didn't include Zach Wilson or (obviously) Trey Lance either. Jones far outperformed 3 out the 4 (5 if you include Lance) 1st-round rookies this year.

I was just using this year's rookies, so that's why there was no Lamar Jackson. Mind you, he threw about 15 passes per game in a half season in his rookie season, but whatever. Of course, if we go that route we'd have to include Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold, and rookie Josh Allen (rookie Baker Mayfield looks a lot like rookie Daniel Jones minus the fumbles). 

My point is not that Jones is great. It's that he's pretty average but gets talked about like he's awful, whereas other guys (this is in part why I mentioned Fields and Lawrence above) who are clearly worse get excuses made for them. 

35 I mean

It’s nice Mike has now said a few times “you know, there was an outside chance in retrospect that a more modern coach could use a guy who has passed well before (HS, the SEC, the 4th Q of NFL games), is an inspiring leader, a good rusher, doesn’t throw picks, & plays well in big moments”. I mean, Tebow was destroyed by Belichick in the playoffs (I still think the Broncos coaches reverted to conservatism), but so was Andrew Luck a few times. Getting beaten with a staff of John Fox, Mike McCoy, and Adam Gase with the 24th-ranked D & the 2nd worst team (the previous year) in your 16th start ever isn’t cause for banishment. But Mike IMO was one of the people the old school coaches listened to in terms of “he’s a distraction”. Tanier here admitted he had to “stop” Tebowmania, which I interpret as a bit of a culture war dog whistle 😉: these crazy evangelicals won’t shut up until we get their hero out of here.

Here’s the thing though: you won’t find a person who hates evangelicals more than me, & clearly I’m one of Tebow’s biggest fans. But again, do you want a world with Kyle Orton and Andy Dalton and even Matthew Stafford, competent-but-uninspiring to talented-but-panicked? It’s the height of humor that Jacksonville, the New York Jets, and now Denver are all in professional limbo, yet they eschewed the “bird in the hand” (who you coulda taught to fly straighter). The last team to cut him basically has Tebow but in two separate people now (Hurts & Minshew). The NFL keeps hoping for the Zach Wilsons and the Baker Mayfields to work out, but told Tebow he wasn’t needed. That all just makes for a less fun NFL IMO.

39 Every QB you mentioned in…

In reply to by liquidmuse3

Every QB you mentioned in this comment (except Wilson) has a significantly better NFL output than Tebow. I get the point about perhaps being better suited to the modern game, but Tebow couldn't even crack 50% career completion percentage, a baseline measure of competence that all of these QBs far surpassed, despite having a WR corps that would form the basis of the highest-scoring offense in league history two years later. I mean, did you really imply that Denver should have kept Tebow rather than cutting bait and signing Peyton Manning??

41 There is plenty to dislike…

In reply to by liquidmuse3

There is plenty to dislike about Tebow, beyond the pure lack of QB skills,  the narrow-based religion narrative with overblown media promotion, and the accompanying theatrics. He was dismantled by teams that figured him out, even the Detroit Lions who crushed him on the field.

You mention John Fox, but Fox was the coach who gave him life in the NFL by changing the game plan to enable Tebow's limited talents. Tebow only won one playoff game because Tomlin is an idiot when he has to be.

Also ironic that Cam Newton was also at U Florida with Tebow. Who ended up as the better QB in the NFL?

36 Hudson Bay

Tanier probably suggested Hudson Bay because there is precedent: Henry Hudson himself was marooned there by his mutinous crew.